Voicelessness and Emotional Survival Message Board

Voicelessness and Emotional Survival => Voicelessness and Emotional Survival Message Board => Topic started by: lighter on June 07, 2008, 09:38:46 AM

Title: Victim mentality
Post by: lighter on June 07, 2008, 09:38:46 AM: I'm removing the first of the posts... so they aren't associated with this drivel.

Lighter

ps.... yes....

that's elitism.
Title: Re: Exploring Victim Mentality
Post by: Ami on June 07, 2008, 11:21:11 AM: This is a great thread, Lighter. Ami
Title: Re: Exploring Victim Mentality
Post by: Certain Hope on June 07, 2008, 11:28:00 AM: This is sorta the flip side of something I've been wanting to post, which has been parked on my desktop for a couple days now.

Might as well add it here:

Casting the Villain

This is a phenomenon I've noticed and just wondered whether anyone else has seen/experienced it?

I know I've done it myself... assigned folks in various settings to various roles - - - all the world's a stage, yanno.

But what lies behind this perceived need to identify the villain and even plot a course around (or over top of) him?

Maybe the villain is simply another struggling, human being who doesn't see things the way I do or, for various reasons, rubs me the wrong way.

That's what I'm talking about here, by the way - - people with whom we may have personality conflicts or those whose views are diametrically opposed to ours.
Not talking about robbers and murderers and the like... just ordinary folks whom we encounter along our daily paths. People we don't like.

Okay, so I dislike her. I disagree with her worldview and I find her personal style obnoxious.
Maybe she reminds me of someone from my past. So what?
Maybe I can imagine her as the culprit in all sorts of dasturdly deeds, but does that really make it so?

What does it take - within me - to determine that this person is a genuine villain and that it is up to me to block her every attempt to exert her existence on this planet?

I say, it takes a monumental sense of self-obsessive pride and entitlement. I can say that, because I know that's a big part of what was at work within me when I'd get to feeling that way about someone.

The moment I decide that I'm better than x,y,z - when I decide that my thoughts and ways are soooo much higher than hers....
that's when all of this villainization becomes possible. Whether or not that's a word, I don't know, but I've surely done it and witnessed it being done. Usually, it begins by my deluding myself into thinking that I know someone else's motivation when what I should have been doing is keeping a tighter rein on my own heart.

And what is it that makes me feel superior to my self-declared villain?

My own denial and delusion of grandeur which I choose to nurture rather than getting down to the nitty gritty of sorting out my own mess.

A victim requires a villain, simple as that, so watch out when you rub a victim the wrong way.

Carolyn
Title: Re: Exploring Victim Mentality
Post by: Ami on June 07, 2008, 11:38:15 AM: . As a child, when I was humiliated and shocked, I could not do anything. I was blamed for the PREDATORS actions. I was blamed b/c *I* was too..... whatever...,sensitive, too much of a "victim"
I was blamed for s'one elses predatory behavior TOWARD me.My M was very smart and twisted reality. I knew it, but could NOT admit it to myself. Now, I see why I was angry. I see the replay.
I blamed myslf b/c I had no choice, as a child. I would have died if my M got out of control. I shamed and hated myself for my whole life.
I see what happened.Now, I can let it go, it is not underground, but above ground, out in the light. Thanks Light.
Ami
Title: Re: Exploring Victim Mentality
Post by: lighter on June 07, 2008, 11:48:12 AM: Quote from: Certain Hope on June 07, 2008, 11:28:00 AM

I say, it takes a monumental sense of self-obsessive pride and entitlement.

The moment I decide that I'm better than x,y,z -

Usually, it begins by my deluding myself into thinking that I know someone else's motivation

Carolyn

Ahhhhhhhhh, Carolyn.

You've brought part of the equation into sharp relief... at least for me.

Immediately, Mud's guidance comes to mind, from long ago.

I'm paraphrasing his words here.....

"When explaining egregiouse behavior......

simply state the facts without assigning motive... let the listener do that for themselves."

Because then it says something about them. ::nod::

Assigning motive says something about us.

Mud said it plainly... and yet here I am, finding I have to be reminded, yet again.

Thank you for this, Carolyn.... did you write it yourself?

Lighter
Title: IS IT WRONG TO BE A VICTIM?
Post by: Leah on June 07, 2008, 11:50:26 AM: Hi (( All )),

I have read with interest and appreciation the article "Exploring Victim Mentality"

however, to set a balance, I would like to add ....

IS IT WRONG TO BE A VICTIM?

Dr. Frank Ochberg, Harvard trained MD and trauma expert, says our culture now disparages, blames, isolates, and condemns someone for being a victim.

Victim, survivor, victimology, victim abuse...why are victims being told to deny their reality? Sometimes being sad is normal. It doesn't mean you stay there, but don't feel guilty for it.

Why everyone can't just "move on" and "choose a happy future"

The concept that a victim can always consciously choose how to proceed, is flawed. Abuse is trauma and the ability to take steps forward is often impaired. Sometimes, help is needed.
The phrase, "move on with your life" is common. Sometimes said to those who have lost a custody battle, lost a home, or savings, a family or job this phrase can be another betrayal. Just when a victim needs support, they are asked to go it alone.

The entire infrastructure of a life is often destroyed leaving the victim, stunned, hypervigilant, indigent, betrayed and perplexed as to why they are expected to "choose" to not be a victim. Give them a time machine and this can be done. Give them revictimization and it cannot.

It's time to give that word back its status and in doing so, respect the abused. Respect comes in the form of providing help with a compassionate approach to those stripped of dignity through abuse in courts of law, or by their partners.

What is the definition of a "victim"?

According to the dictionary a victim is: One who is harmed by, or made to suffer from an act, circumstance, agency, or condition; a person who is tricked, swindled, or taken advantage of.

The victim of a narcissist is traumatized. There are biochemical changes in the body and structural changes in the brain. Thought patterns change, memories are lost, immune system strongly affected, brain cells die, there is chest pain, muscle pain, feelings are intense and emotions chaotic.

Why are victims revictimized?

Because it's politically correct to say, "I'm not a victim, I'm a survivor."

Not all victims are the same.

Some have more resiliency than others. Some are without resources or support. Many have physiological changes that need to be addressed. And when those who need help come looking for it, instead of being welcomed, they find "helpers" that tell them they are responsible for their healing NOW.

These people are revictimizing because "choice" is NOT always an option.

Reclaim the Word Victim

We must reclaim the word "victim" and renew our commitment to those who are victims. We should examine the role of a victim impact statement and victim advocate for those who are traumatized emotionally as well as from a criminal act.

Are you being victimized again by someone who says, "if you won't stop being a victim. I won't help you"? Maybe your attorney, therapist. siblings, or friends are claiming you can just choose to stop being a victim. Maybe they think you can start a company without money, and buy a house with bad credit. Maybe they don't know what they are talking about.

As a victim of any kind of abuse you deserve:

1. Compassion
2. Validation
3 Freedom from theraputic verbal abuse
4. A support team to open doors to resources
5. A friend, therapist or counselor who can teach you the skills to rebuild your life.

Depending on who you are, this may take a long time or not. Variables include amount and length of abuse, health, supportive family or not, finances, genetic explanatory style (optimism or pessimism), coping skills you may already have and many others. As a victim, you have the right to say, "STOP" to those who blame the victim. An entire self help industry has arisen that believes if you just really really wanted to, you can be happy and healthy and fully functional as soon as you choose to be. A starting point for recovery are post traumatic stress sites. There you will find trained and compassionate support people with articles that explain trauma healing methods.

The Scientific Basis of Healing, Happiness and Recovery

It doesn't matter if you call yourself a victim, survivor or Martian. No one should deny you victim status. It is what is. A victim is not a slothlike creature, nor stupid. Nor is a victim responsible for what happened to her and we must stop worrying about language and start helping. A victim is a person with a life in chaos. What matters is that you get the help you need and the compassionate trained person to give you the skills.

The good news is that happiness is trainable, resiliency comes back and psychologists are moving from the Freudian model which has dominated psychology for too long and was wrong to boot, to a model that moves from pathology as the dominant scheme. The process of de-traumatization begins with validation. It then moves to retraining explanatory style. Depending on the depth and time of the abuse, it may take a long or short time to process to empowerment and control. IT IS NOT NECESSARY to analyze every event. It IS necessary to be heard and listened to and to tell your story. But not over and over to everyone who will listen. Validation is critical.
Title: Re: Exploring Victim Mentality
Post by: lighter on June 07, 2008, 12:10:14 PM: Wow, Leah.

I hope alone finds this thread.

::going to change title::

Lighter
Title: Re: Exploring Victim Mentality
Post by: Leah on June 07, 2008, 12:17:30 PM: Lighter,

IS IT WRONG TO BE A VICTIM was employed at the women's domes tic violen ce convention and it had an impact on the police members present, several red faces and shuffling in their seats.

I feel most passionate about the subject, having been maligned as a "surviv or"

Love,

Leah
Title: Re: alone, please read: Exploring Victim Mentality
Post by: lighter on June 07, 2008, 12:21:31 PM: I saw someone viewing this 2005 thread recently, and copied it here, as follows:

Lighter

Stormchild
Hero Member

Posts: 1254

It's about becoming real.

Snakes in Suits: Subcriminal Psychopaths [Book Review]
« on: May 05, 2007, 12:51:34 AM »

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Write put up a thought-provoking post on the Cognitive Dissonance Question thread:

Quote
On the subject of the psychopath, I have worked with young people who were diagnosed 'anti-social perosnality disorder' for their inability to comply to any kind of imposed structure; they have gone on to do extremely unpleasant things then they attract an NPD label. Whereas NPD people can often be extremely successful and charming and able to comply with social norms some of the time. I can only speculate as to whether the two kinds of people are the same kind of psychopath!

which reminded me of a book I purchased recently - titled "Snakes in Suits: When Psychopaths Go To Work."

Here are excerpts from a book review - link here: http://www.beyondbullying.co.nz/snakes_in_suits_spot_the_true_ps.htm

Quote
At the end of a talk on organised crime, Dr. Robert Hare mentioned his belief that some of the year's worst accounting scandals could have been avoided if all chief executives were screened for psychopathic tendencies. He was quoted everywhere, not so much because of the sensational implication that some of America's best-known companies had been run for most of the 1990s by people with a major mental disorder, as because of who he is.

Hare defined psychopathy for modern scientists with an exhaustive questionnaire, sold only to clinicians, called the Psychopathy Checklist, or PCL-R. It was introduced in 1980 and has become an internationally recognized instrument for identifying psychopaths. It means that when a subject scores 30 (out of a possible 40) in a prison in Dundee, an expert in Detroit will have a good idea of his proclivities.

That's the good news. The bad news is that the PCL-R revealed that psychopaths are everywhere. Most are non-violent, but all leave a trail of havoc through their families and work environments, using and abusing colleagues and loved ones, endlessly manipulating others, constantly reinventing themselves.

Hare puts the average North American incidence of psychopathy at one per cent of the population, but the damage they inflict on society is out of all proportion to their numbers, not least because they gravitate to high-profile professions that offer the promise of control over others, such as law, politics, [medicine, and corporate management].

By the Hare definition there are 300,000 in Canada alone.

Despite this, spotting psychopaths is hard, though it may be about to get easier. Next year Hare and a New York-based colleague, Paul Babiak, will publish a book called Snakes in Suits: When Psychopaths Go To Work, that will at least alert the average office worker to the possibility that her amusing but exasperating - and, frankly, narcissistic and untrustworthy - colleague may be clinically psychopathic. Hare and Babiak will also produce a new diagnostic tool based on the PCL-R but designed to help businesses to keep their recruits and senior management psychopath-free.

Enter the B-Scan. It won't be available to everyone, and it won't be free. Slightly jarringly, one is reminded that its authors are businessmen as well as academics. But they insist that it will do a better job of raising warning flags than traditional screening techniques such as CVs (routinely falsified and seldom checked) and interviews and role-playing ("Psychopaths love this stuff," Hare says. "It's like a game to them.").

If you are B-Scanned, it won't be you answering the questions. It will be your colleagues, grading your personal style, interpersonal relations, organisational maturity and antisocial tendencies according to 16 buzz words, none of them uplifting. They include the following: insincere, arrogant, insensitive, remorseless, shallow, impatient, erratic, unreliable, unfocused, parasitic, dramatic, unethical and bullying.

Yikes. Who isn't most of these things, at least some of the time?

I meet Hare in a London hotel and find him used to such anxieties.

"I know, I know," he says. "People read this stuff and suddenly everyone around them is a psychopath. They pick up on three or four of the characteristics and say, 'yeah, he's one.' But it's not like that. It's a medical syndrome. You've got to have the whole package."

And when you do, what does it look like? Hare gives an example, and not just any example. He first gave it to Nicole Kidman in a private meeting requested by her to help her prepare for her memorably chilly role in Malice.

"I gave her a scene," he says. "You're walking down the street and there's been an accident. A child has been hit by a car and is lying on the ground. There's a crowd around him. The mother's kneeling down there crying and emoting. You're curious but not appalled. You look at the child momentarily and then you look at the mother. You walk towards her, step in some blood and then study the mother's facial expressions for a minute or two. Then you walk back to your apartment or hotel room, walk into the bathroom and stand in front of the mirror practising those expressions. I said, 'If you did that, people would see that you don't understand emotion, you have no idea at all, you're a colour-blind person trying to explain colour.' They didn't use the scene, but they could have."

In the workplace such a person might resemble 'Dave', a real individual studied by Babiak who cut a swath of disruption through a highly profitable American electronics company in the mid-1990s. Dave was good-looking, well spoken and impressive in the interview that led to his recruitment. He was also a skilled and shameless liar, rude to subordinates, scheming towards his boss and quickly friendly with the firm's top management. Already on his third marriage by his mid-thirties, he was short tempered, happy to ignore assignments that he felt were beneath him, and quick to change the subject if challenged on a lie or asked to produce some real evidence of work.

When his boss summoned the courage and evidence to make a complaint to the company president, he found that Dave had got there first and secured for himself the status of "high-potential employee."

The boss ended up sidelined. Dave ended up promoted, swaggering and "in love with himself." He scored 19 on the PCL-R, lower than you would expect for a psychopathic murderer but much higher than your average working non-psychopath. He or she would score a five at most.

People such as Dave can be spotted early. Babiak recommends checking CVs exhaustively and auditing expenses - psychopaths like to indulge. It all seems obvious, but for the past 10 or 12 years, for most of corporate America, it hasn't been.

These have been tumultuous years in the world of business, with dot-coms booming and collapsing, older firms merging or shrinking to catch up, and hierarchies everywhere flattening faster than the boss can say: 'Hey, c'mon in, my door is always open.' In short, it has been a high old time for psychopaths.

"When you see what has happened with Enron and WorldCom and all these other big corporations, and you ask how the hell could this guy get in that position, well, there are answers," Hare says.

"When the structure's not there, when charisma is extremely important and style wins over substance, and one person ends up with three or four hundred million pounds in an offshore bank account, I start to get suspicious. And when the whole thing breaks and people are losing their pensions and livelihoods, these people give nothing back.

"Many of the high-level executives now being charged knew exactly what they were doing. They had no concern for anybody else, and you have to say they aren't warm, loving guys."

Likewise in politics. "Think what happened in the former Soviet Union and the former Yugoslavia. The old rules went by the board. Structure vanished and all the ethnic tension that had been held in check by central government began to emerge. It was the perfect set-up for an opportunist, a thug or a psychopath to enter and take over."

That takeover usually has three stages. First, the psychopath identifies those who can help him and cultivates them with all his considerable charm. Then he pinpoints those who can harm him and outflanks them or stabs them in the back. Finally he makes a sycophantic but ultimately devastating beeline towards the source of power (one thinks of Hitler and Hindenburg, but also of the irrepressible Eve Harrington in All About Eve).

Psychopaths necessarily have victims, and Hare's drive to expose the "subcriminal" ones in our midst is at least partly personal. He speaks of an old college friend, now gravely ill, who lost $500,000 in a mortgage scam to a white-collar crook who got off with a $100,000 fine and a six-month trading ban. Society still labels such people rogues at worst. Hare calls them natural- born predators.

There is a difficulty approaching all this from outside academe: it can seem as if the experts are using jargon to force a thousand shades of grey - for there are surely at least that many degrees of psychopathy - into convenient boxes for personnel managers, employment tribunals and courts.

Babiak certainly counsels caution. Being psychopathic is not a sin, let alone a ground on its own for dismissal. But underpinning the PCL-R is hard science, hard to ignore. Before he published it, Hare performed two now-famous studies which suggest that psychopaths really are different from the rest of us. In the first, subjects were told to watch a timer counting down to zero, at which point they felt a harmless but painful electric shock. Non-psychopaths showed mounting anxiety and fear. Psychopaths didn't even sweat.

In the second, the two groups had their brain activity and response time measured when asked to react to groups of letters, some forming words, some not. Words such as rape and cancer triggered mental jolts in nonpsychopaths. In psychopaths they triggered precisely nothing.

That research is decades old now. The man behind it, instead of retiring, tours the world helping to nail the psychopaths among us and trying to make sure that his instruments are not misused.

Part of his mission is to stay serious. He won't appear on Oprah, and he won't name names. Instead, when he sees someone in the news he thinks might be a psychopath, he says: "I'd sure as hell like to study this guy."

Write, I think you're asking about the difference between criminal and subcriminal psychopaths. And it sure seems as though the subcriminal psychopaths look a lot like what we refer to as Ns.

I'm fascinated by the B-scan, too. Look at the implications. The world's expert on psychopathy is basically telling us that we laypeople are sufficiently good observers and reporters that our pooled observations can accurately portray an individual as psychopathic when they are. It's interesting, too, that Hare goes to the people affected by the potential psychopath, and collects their experiences, and doesn't go to the psychopath himself... because of their gameplaying ability.

I've known more than a few Daves. At school, at work, even in ministry... I think we all have.

This is an incredibly good book. And it is far more encouraging than discouraging.

« Last Edit: May 05, 2007, 09:42:19 AM by Stormchild » Report to moderator Logged
Title: Re: alone, please read: Exploring Victim Mentality
Post by: Ami on June 07, 2008, 12:21:52 PM: Blaming the victim FOR being a victim is double abuse!
Leah, your point is right.
The person who was VICTIMIZED needs to call themselves whatever they need to, not letting s/one else, with various "agendas" define them as being "too" much of a victim. That is BS. Ami
Title: Re: alone, please read: Exploring Victim Mentality
Post by: Leah on June 07, 2008, 12:24:48 PM: Quote from: Ami on June 07, 2008, 12:21:52 PM
Blaming the victim FOR being a victim is double abuse!
Ami

Exactly, Ami

that is the truth.

Blaming the victim is a double dose of abuse and invalidates the persons reality.

Love, Leah
Title: Re: alone, please read: Exploring Victim Mentality
Post by: Ami on June 07, 2008, 12:30:23 PM: My MAIN abuse was the the PREDATOR invalidating reality. That was the worse abuse and probably still is. I am SO happy I see it. I could do a joyous dance.Thanks,Leah. Ami
Title: Re: Exploring Victim Mentality
Post by: Certain Hope on June 07, 2008, 12:39:51 PM: Quote from: lighter on June 07, 2008, 11:48:12 AM
Quote from: Certain Hope on June 07, 2008, 11:28:00 AM

I say, it takes a monumental sense of self-obsessive pride and entitlement.

The moment I decide that I'm better than x,y,z -

Usually, it begins by my deluding myself into thinking that I know someone else's motivation

Carolyn

Ahhhhhhhhh, Carolyn.

You've brought part of the equation into sharp relief... at least for me.

Immediately, Mud's guidance comes to mind, from long ago.

I'm paraphrasing his words here.....

"When explaining egregiouse behavior......

simply state the facts without assigning motive... let the listener do that for themselves."

Because then it says something about them. ::nod::

Assigning motive says something about us.

Mud said it plainly... and yet here I am, finding I have to be reminded, yet again.

Thank you for this, Carolyn.... did you write it yourself?

Lighter

Lighter,

Yes, I wrote it myself, out of my observations - - of myself and my own tendencies, and of others - both at work and here on this board.

Stating facts is great, as long as that statement is complete and doesn't omit certain facts which might reveal extenuating circumstances.
But human nature does seem to have a boundless capacity for giving one's self the benefit of the doubt while shining the harshest light onto the other.

Assigning motive does not necessarily speak to what lies within our own hearts. It may be simply that we've grown so cynical and jaded via wrongs that've been done to us that we've come to expect the worst from others. On the other hand, it's true that a thief always thinks someone's stealing from him.... and a gossip generally suspects that others are speaking evil of her behind her back.

But the real point I was trying to make is this:
I think that some people - including myself, in the past - find it nearly impossible to walk through life without villainizing someone. It's like they require an antagonist as much as their next breath of oxygen, because - psychologically - they have never existed in their own eyes apart from some other who has constantly and consistently nipped at their heels.

I was there. I couldn't seem to find motivation, even, without someone against whom to play off. Sadly, there's always someone else in a parallel position, willing to be that foil
(not sure that's the right word.) Until the person recognizes that she's not pure as the driven snow and that she's just using other impure people against whom to compare herself (and pit herself), all growth comes to a screeching halt. At least that's how it's been for me.

Carolyn
Title: Re: alone, please read: Exploring Victim Mentality
Post by: Leah on June 07, 2008, 12:43:54 PM: Also, to maintain a balance, and with regard to my previous posting, above, on the subject of .... Re-Victimizing the Victim ... I would add ..

I address the victims of narcissistic abusers here. But this can warn their friends about how hurtful the stock responses to their pain are. If you are the friend of an abused person, don't make it worse. If you can't say what comes naturally and honestly, it would be better to say nothing at all than to say what sounds right because it's politically correct.

He who angers you controls you. Baloney. That popular adage does not pass a basic nonsense check. Look, it says that good boys and girls are numb so that nobody can make them feel an emotion. It is also exactly anti-logical, blaming the victim. It pathologizes you, the victim of the narcissist, instead of the narcissist.

Stuff like this is my pet peeve. Once you start noticing how much political correctness is anti-logic, you can't help but wonder (with Mark Twain) whether anyone examines an idea before swallowing it whole.

We should be more careful what we let into our minds (The Garden) than what we let into our bodies. Rot like that adage does great added harm to the victims of abuse. First the narcissist outrages you until you want to scream.

But don't take my word for it. Think for yourself.

The reasoning goes like this: So, the narcissist's abuse is nothing to get angry about? You are to act as though it didn't happen? In other words, you are to make nothing of it, right?

Wrong. For, if it is nothing, then you are nothing. Why? Because everybody knows that if I bash an object, that's nothing, but if I bash a human being, that's something. If I step on a bug, that's nothing, but if I step on a human being, that's something.

Yet, no matter what, the do-gooders just don't get it — until they're the one that gets bashed. Then they see the degrading value judgment in making nothing of it.

By telling you to make nothing of it, they are telling you that abusing you was nothing. That means you are nothing. Indeed, if your abuser bashed your automobile, they wouldn't tell you to make nothing of it, would they? An automobile is a thing of value, so harm done to it requires reparation. But, harm done to you is nothing, eh? What a dehumanizing value judgment.

And it lands on top of the one the narcissist dumped on you. Feel better now?

First he got on your back, and now they pile on too. The holier-than-thous should be criticizing the abuser's behavior, not the victim's. There's a name for people like that, "Job's Comforters" or "troublesome comforters." That's what I mean when I say that people saying stuff like this do more harm than good. Pound, pound, pound, they all pound you down with that club that says Doing that to you was nothing = You are nothing. And it's a sin for you to not cover up for him by acting like it didn't happen.

Just what you needed to hear, right? So, who's side are they really on? whether they realize it or not? Hard to take, isn't it? What a heartless thing to do to someone already down.

Why can't they just break down and say that it causes them sorrow to hear what was done to you and that it really sucked? Then all they'd have to do is act like you mean something to them. Why is that asking too much? Why do you get all that other crap instead?

Sometimes I think they just don't want your sad face to rain on their day. I think it's for their sake that they want you to take Prozac. They just want you to make it go away, to act like it didn't happen.

If it's a sin to even be angry about degrading treatment, then what can you do to contradict the humiliating value judgment in it? Nothing. If merely feeling an emotion is stepping off the straight-and-narrow, what could they give you permission to do? Nothing!

Ah, it seems to me that the one whose hands they should tie is your abuser, not you. This way they are accessories to mayhem.

The more you think about it, the more ridiculous the moralizing gets, doesn't it? Parrots who get their morality from prime-time TV thus deny you the most basic human right — the right to protect yourself. Just what kind of person would docilely accept abuse? would make nothing of it? A person who thinks he or she is entitled to better treatment? A person who thinks anything of him- or her-self? A person with any self-respect? any dignity? integrity? a backbone? If you are the victim of a narcissist, you know that your anger is your assertion of your self-worth.

Sounders like to sound good by making others sound bad for not taking an affront to their human dignity as though it were nothing. Is that not rubbing the victim's nose in it? That's what it feels like. It's no longer just the narcissist abusing you, the whole world piles on to stifle your objection. This overwhelming pressure is what breaks the victim's back, forcing him to join in the zero valuation of himself. The result of this self-betrayal is self-hatred. Which is precisely what drives so many victims of narcissists to needing psychiatric help themselves.

Accept your feelings. Own them. Know them. Experience the tremendous relief and comfort in that. Then you can temper their influence on your conduct with reason and good judgment. You are responsible for your conduct — your words and deeds — not your feelings. Just because you are angry does not mean you are out of control of yourself as that stupid saying implies. It is the narcissist who has no self-control, not his or her victim.

Your anger, like any pain, will pass. If someone punches you, he is to blame for your pain, not you. By the same token, the one to blame for your anger is your abuser, not you.

....continued on http://www.narcissism.operationdoubles.com/onyourfeelings.htm (http://www.narcissism.operationdoubles.com/onyourfeelings.htm)
Title: Re: alone, please read: Exploring Victim Mentality
Post by: Ami on June 07, 2008, 12:45:08 PM: YES
THE ONE TO BLAME FOR YOUR ABUSE IS YOUR ABUSER! AMEN Ami
Title: Re: alone, please read: Exploring Victim Mentality
Post by: Certain Hope on June 07, 2008, 12:46:20 PM: This is getting a bit beyond weird, so I'm going to mention it.

On more occasions than I can count, I've noticed that when I post after Leah, she returns to the thread, deletes her previous post, and re-posts it after mine.

I don't want to assume or assign motives, I'm only mentioning it because - like I said - I find it exceedingly odd.

Carolyn
Title: Re: alone, please read: Exploring Victim Mentality
Post by: Leah on June 07, 2008, 12:53:01 PM: Quote from: Certain Hope on June 07, 2008, 12:46:20 PM
This is getting a bit beyond weird, so I'm going to mention it.

On more occasions than I can count, I've noticed that when I post after Leah, she returns to the thread, deletes her previous post, and re-posts it after mine.

I don't want to assume or assign motives, I'm only mentioning it because - like I said - I find it exceedingly odd.

Carolyn

Carolyn,

You may not have found it so odd, IF you had conversed with me, and asked me why I GENERALLY (not just your post) sometimes do delete the previous post AFTER editting the post due to my error (grammar error i.e. comma's - which has been pointed out to me on the board - failure to use spellcheck - or addition - or complete mess in the way I have written something - as I am not a professional writer .......... no surprise!).

Because, I choose to do so.

No rules for typing here, thank goodness.

Love,

Leah

PS. I have been made free, and feel totally free here, to express in my own style, whether it maybe somewhat unstylish, and make no apology for being a ham at writing.
Title: Re: alone, please read: Exploring Victim Mentality
Post by: Leah on June 07, 2008, 12:57:03 PM: Quote from: Ami on June 07, 2008, 12:45:08 PM
YES
THE ONE TO BLAME FOR YOUR ABUSE IS YOUR ABUSER! AMEN Ami

Dear Ami,

Oh, I know, but try telling that to some folk - whether in the public services sector, or just the ordinary man/woman in the street.

I did go through a stage of thinking that it would have been better to have remained suffering in silence, because the additional angst and pain of being Re-Victimized

and being blamed for the actions of my perpetrator of abuse .......... was doubly binding.

Love,

Leah
Title: Re: alone, please read: Exploring Victim Mentality
Post by: Certain Hope on June 07, 2008, 12:59:23 PM: Quote from: LeahsRainbow on June 07, 2008, 12:53:01 PM
Quote from: Certain Hope on June 07, 2008, 12:46:20 PM
This is getting a bit beyond weird, so I'm going to mention it.

On more occasions than I can count, I've noticed that when I post after Leah, she returns to the thread, deletes her previous post, and re-posts it after mine.

I don't want to assume or assign motives, I'm only mentioning it because - like I said - I find it exceedingly odd.

Carolyn

Carolyn,

You may not have found it so odd, IF you had conversed with me, and asked me why I GENERALLY (not just your post) sometimes do delete the previous post AFTER editting the post due to my error (grammar error i.e. comma's - which has been pointed out to me on the board - failure to use spellcheck - or addition - or complete mess in the way I have written something - as I am not a professional writer .......... no surprise!).

Because, I choose to do so.

No rules for typing here, thank goodness.

Love,

Leah

No, indeed, Leah... I do still find it exceedingly odd... and well beyond the reasoning you've stated here.

You add to your posts all the time, via the edit function.
But when you move your posts ahead on the thread, it's when I've posted after you.
Been watching this for ages, so there's no doubt about it in my mind.

I have your post in question from this thread saved, because I'd wondered whether you'd do the same thing again (as you've already done elsewhere, today).
There are no substantial changes.

In other words, I don't believe you, Leah... but that's okay. I can live with that.

I just wanted to state the facts as I've observed them and now I can let it go.

Carolyn
Title: Re: alone, please read: Exploring Victim Mentality
Post by: Leah on June 07, 2008, 01:02:30 PM: Carollyn,

You can't do anything to upset me, not anymore.

You think that others do and behave as you do.

Well, sorry, but they don't always do as you do.

Love,

Leah
Title: Re: alone, please read: Exploring Victim Mentality
Post by: Leah on June 07, 2008, 01:04:45 PM: Quote from: Certain Hope on June 07, 2008, 12:59:23 PM
Quote from: LeahsRainbow on June 07, 2008, 12:53:01 PM
Quote from: Certain Hope on June 07, 2008, 12:46:20 PM
This is getting a bit beyond weird, so I'm going to mention it.

On more occasions than I can count, I've noticed that when I post after Leah, she returns to the thread, deletes her previous post, and re-posts it after mine.

I don't want to assume or assign motives, I'm only mentioning it because - like I said - I find it exceedingly odd.

Carolyn

Carolyn,

You may not have found it so odd, IF you had conversed with me, and asked me why I GENERALLY (not just your post) sometimes do delete the previous post AFTER editting the post due to my error (grammar error i.e. comma's - which has been pointed out to me on the board - failure to use spellcheck - or addition - or complete mess in the way I have written something - as I am not a professional writer .......... no surprise!).

Because, I choose to do so.

No rules for typing here, thank goodness.

Love,

Leah

No, indeed, Leah... I do still find it exceedingly odd... and well beyond the reasoning you've stated here.

You add to your posts all the time, via the edit function.
But when you move your posts ahead on the thread, it's when I've posted after you.
Been watching this for ages, so there's no doubt about it in my mind.

I have your post in question from this thread saved, because I'd wondered whether you'd do the same thing again (as you've already done elsewhere, today).
There are no substantial changes.

In other words, I don't believe you, Leah... but that's okay. I can live with that.

I just wanted to state the facts as I've observed them and now I can let it go.

Carolyn

Carolyn,

You must have nothing better to do, than watch Leah's every move, and save Leah's posts, and check to see what Leah is doing.

You clearly have had an issue with me, and that is YOUR ownership, not mine.

All because I dared to question.

Love,

Leah
Title: Re: alone, please read: Exploring Victim Mentality
Post by: Certain Hope on June 07, 2008, 01:06:11 PM: Quote from: LeahsRainbow on June 07, 2008, 01:02:30 PM

Carollyn,

You can't do anything to upset me, not anymore.

You think that others do and behave as you do.

Well, sorry, but they don't always do as you do.

Love,

Leah

I'm not trying to upset you, Leah.

As odd as your behavior has seemed to me, it seemed even more odd for me to pretend like I hadn't noticed.

So I'm making it clear in this way - yes, I have noticed.

I could have just played the game of moving my own posts beyond yours, time after time, but that would surely feel like a regression.

Carolyn
Title: Re: alone, please read: Exploring Victim Mentality
Post by: Leah on June 07, 2008, 01:11:37 PM: Quote from: Certain Hope on June 07, 2008, 01:06:11 PM
Quote from: LeahsRainbow on June 07, 2008, 01:02:30 PM

Carollyn,

You can't do anything to upset me, not anymore.

You think that others do and behave as you do.

Well, sorry, but they don't always do as you do.

Love,

Leah

I'm not trying to upset you, Leah.

As odd as your behavior has seemed to me, it seemed even more odd for me to pretend like I hadn't noticed.

So I'm making it clear in this way - yes, I have noticed.

I could have just played the game of moving my own posts beyond yours, time after time, but that would surely feel like a regression.

Carolyn

Carolyn,

I don't concern myself with how others choose to type their words, edit, add, review, highlight, and do whatever it is they wish to do - in their choice of expression and style.

They can delete, change, re-post as many times as they wish to.

So long as they don't post abusively and harmfully,

then I am happy to live and let live, in allowing freedom of expression in an individuals own choice of style, and ability.

Love,

Leah
Title: Re: alone, please read: Exploring Victim Mentality
Post by: Certain Hope on June 07, 2008, 01:19:36 PM: Quote from: LeahsRainbow on June 07, 2008, 01:04:45 PM
Quote from: Certain Hope on June 07, 2008, 12:59:23 PM
Quote from: LeahsRainbow on June 07, 2008, 12:53:01 PM
Quote from: Certain Hope on June 07, 2008, 12:46:20 PM
This is getting a bit beyond weird, so I'm going to mention it.

On more occasions than I can count, I've noticed that when I post after Leah, she returns to the thread, deletes her previous post, and re-posts it after mine.

I don't want to assume or assign motives, I'm only mentioning it because - like I said - I find it exceedingly odd.

Carolyn

Carolyn,

You may not have found it so odd, IF you had conversed with me, and asked me why I GENERALLY (not just your post) sometimes do delete the previous post AFTER editting the post due to my error (grammar error i.e. comma's - which has been pointed out to me on the board - failure to use spellcheck - or addition - or complete mess in the way I have written something - as I am not a professional writer .......... no surprise!).

Because, I choose to do so.

No rules for typing here, thank goodness.

Love,

Leah

No, indeed, Leah... I do still find it exceedingly odd... and well beyond the reasoning you've stated here.

You add to your posts all the time, via the edit function.
But when you move your posts ahead on the thread, it's when I've posted after you.
Been watching this for ages, so there's no doubt about it in my mind.

I have your post in question from this thread saved, because I'd wondered whether you'd do the same thing again (as you've already done elsewhere, today).
There are no substantial changes.

In other words, I don't believe you, Leah... but that's okay. I can live with that.

I just wanted to state the facts as I've observed them and now I can let it go.

Carolyn

Carolyn,

You must have nothing better to do, than watch Leah's every move, and save Leah's posts, and check to see what Leah is doing.

You clearly have had an issue with me, and that is YOUR ownership, not mine.

All because I dared to question.

Love,

Leah

Quote
Carolyn,

I don't concern myself with how others choose to type their words, edit, add, review, highlight, and do whatever it is they wish to do - in their choice of expression and style.

They can delete, change, re-post as many times as they wish to.

So long as they don't post abusively and harmfully,

then I am happy to live and let live, in allowing freedom of expression in an individuals own choice of style, and ability.

Love,

Leah

Leah,

This feels like you are trying to shame me for having noticed this odd behavior in the first place.

Well, I am not ashamed.

I'm glad that I spoke up about it because what's out in the light can no longer simmer and stew.

Carolyn
Title: Re: alone, please read: Exploring Victim Mentality
Post by: Leah on June 07, 2008, 01:28:52 PM: Quote
Leah,

This feels like you are trying to shame me for having noticed this odd behavior in the first place.

Well, I am not ashamed.

I'm glad that I spoke up about it because what's out in the light can no longer simmer and stew.

Carolyn

Carolyn,

What you have said, that you don't believe me, based on your feelings,

goes against all that you have said today.

Also, to accuse me of shaming you, based on your feelings,

is abusive to me as a person, because that is not the truth.

I am ending this now and will hand over the "lastworditis" to you, willinging.

Nothing and no-one is going to seperate me from what God is doing in my life.

Please, know Carolyn that I have forgiven you, and I do again, forgive you now,

for all the hurt and pain I endured when you ceased to love me as your "sister" in Christ

and I sat in silence. I trusted you with my real name.

And all because I dared to question regarding the book.

God Bless You "Shalom"

Love, Leah
Title: Re: alone, please read: Exploring Victim Mentality
Post by: lighter on June 07, 2008, 01:38:09 PM: Well.... .

this recent low conflict exchange is a very good example of communicating our reality(about someone else's perceived behavior....)

and having that reality challenged.

It's been polite, and I find that helpful but, who's reality is real?

There's real and there's reality.

Hmmm...

My first response, for the sake of understanding the social science of this type struggle, was:

1)Who cares if Leah likes to move her posts behind Carolyn's? Wheres the harm in that?

Then I remembered how annoying it was to have my posts followed over and over by a poster, who's posts I wasn't interested in reading. I bet no one else noticed.

A bit frustrating, not harmful but here I was invalidating, if only in my mind, Carolyn's shared thoughts about something she noticed/was frustrated or curiouse about.

Me second thought was:

2) If Leah really is doing that.... maybe she'll quit now that it's been stated on the board and people will be peeping at it, just bc.

So.... I looked at it from my own selfish perspective, at first glance.

How does this affect me?

Do I care?

Everyone does that, I'm sure. Human nature. Nature of the beast and so on.

Not a grudge society holds against victims, leading to what appears to be apathy, minimizing of trauma/victimization or enabling predators.

Right?

::sigh::

Not siding with either party on this one..... but I find it helpful in exploring the OT.

Thanks,

Lighter
Title: Re: alone, please read: Exploring Victim Mentality
Post by: Leah on June 07, 2008, 01:42:07 PM: Lighter,

I have done it ........ I do it

on all threads sometimes, for my own reasons.

More so ............. over on the WHAT HELPS board............... to MINE OWN THREADS !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

This is all most distracting from the ethos of the postings here on this thread which are to do with RE-VICTIMIZATION OF THE VICTIM

which I do hope are helpful to Alone, and anyone sitting on the outside as a guest.

I make no apology for boldly posting that the subject matter is a personal passion of which I have spoken about.

Love, Leah

Editting AGAIN!!!!! By the way, I did post that I have a new laptop and I have, I do, see posts delete with malfunction on my part with side pressing certain keys by accident, namely the Fn key

for some unknown reason, well unknown to me.

Oh, yes, THIS IS NOT A CONFLICT as I perceive.

Love, Leah
Title: Re: alone, please read: Exploring Victim Mentality
Post by: Certain Hope on June 07, 2008, 01:48:59 PM: Okay,

so now it has been judged:

a) that my expression of my feelings re: the attempts to shame me are abusive to another

b) that if I continue to respond re: this behavior, that I have
Quote
"lastworditis"

and

c) that
Quote
This is all to distract from the ethos of the postings here on this thread which are to do with RE-VICTIMIZATION OF THE VICTIM

Lighter, I apologize for sidetracking your thread re: the victim mentality. If you'd like I'd be glad to copy and paste my posts onto a separate thread.
Also, thanks for giving your impression of the discussion.

Carolyn
Title: Re: alone, please read: Exploring Victim Mentality
Post by: Leah on June 07, 2008, 01:54:48 PM: Carolyn,

You typed out quicker than my editting ........... please note that I made an important amendment upon edit........

This is all most distracting from the ethos of the postings here on this thread which are to do with RE-VICTIMIZATION OF THE VICTIM

I type quicker than I process etc., sometimes.

I am not a professional ~~writing~~, writer, merely a member here on the board posting and sharing for the purpose of healing.

Love,

Leah

Edit: I typed writing but it should have been writer. Sorry.
Title: Re: alone, please read: Exploring Victim Mentality
Post by: lighter on June 07, 2008, 02:48:14 PM: Actually.... Carlyn and Leah....

watching this exchange, and being a part, is helping me learn.

Don't apologize.... feel free to continue the exchange and see where it leads.

Pull it apart.... you were right on the money, as far as logical stream of thought, CH.

Leah..... feel free to respond.

We're all learning: )

Lighter
Title: Re: alone, please read: Exploring Victim Mentality
Post by: Leah on June 07, 2008, 03:01:04 PM: I have already fully explained everything, Lighter

God Bless You both, Lighter and Carolyn.

Love,

Leah
Title: Re: alone, please read: Exploring Victim Mentality
Post by: Certain Hope on June 07, 2008, 03:30:00 PM: Thanks, Lighter.

I do have something else to say, re: this -

Quote
Please, know Carolyn that I have forgiven you, and I do again, forgive you now,

for all the hurt and pain I endured when you ceased to love me as your "sister" in Christ

and I sat in silence. I trusted you with my real name.

And all because I dared to question regarding the book.

Although I see little actual historical fact in this statement,
I can feel the pain.

Years ago, when my eldest daughter repeatedly violated our household rules, I told her once and for all that if she was going to remain within our household, she would be required to adhere to those basic rules of truth and respect.
She chose to move out.
Immediately, she began telling all of her friends that her mom had thrown her out.
No doubt she was hurting... but not because of anything I had done.
It was her own choice to violate my boundaries which created her hurt.

Leah, I don't know how to acknowledge your pain and still remain in reality, but I'd like to try.

I'm sorry that you have suffered such hurt and pain.
Yes, Leah, you trusted me with your real name.
I have not abused that trust.
I would never share your real name with anyone.
Carolyn is my real name, by the way.

I have no idea what you mean by saying that you
Quote
"dared to question regarding the book",

I don't recall any book.
What I recall is your badgering me, simply because I'd backed away from communication with you on this board.
Apparently, you did not think that I should have that option.
I now see that you interpreted my backing away as
Quote
"you ceased to love me as your "sister" in Christ"
,
but drawing boundaries is not a cessation of love, Leah.
I'm sorry that people have left you in the past, but I am not they... and I won't allow you to punish me in their place.
As just another wounded person on a recovery message board, I will not accept that role in your life.

Carolyn
Title: Re: alone, please read: Exploring Victim Mentality
Post by: Leah on June 07, 2008, 03:51:57 PM: Quote from: Certain Hope on June 07, 2008, 03:30:00 PM
Thanks, Lighter.

I do have something else to say, re: this -

Quote
Please, know Carolyn that I have forgiven you, and I do again, forgive you now,

for all the hurt and pain I endured when you ceased to love me as your "sister" in Christ

and I sat in silence. I trusted you with my real name.

And all because I dared to question regarding the book.

Although I see little actual historical fact in this statement,
I can feel the pain.

Years ago, when my eldest daughter repeatedly violated our household rules, I told her once and for all that if she was going to remain within our household, she would be required to adhere to those basic rules of truth and respect.
She chose to move out.
Immediately, she began telling all of her friends that her mom had thrown her out.
No doubt she was hurting... but not because of anything I had done.
It was her own choice to violate my boundaries which created her hurt.

Leah, I don't know how to acknowledge your pain and still remain in reality, but I'd like to try.

I'm sorry that you have suffered such hurt and pain.
Yes, Leah, you trusted me with your real name.
I have not abused that trust.
I would never share your real name with anyone.
Carolyn is my real name, by the way.

I have no idea what you mean by saying that you
Quote
"dared to question regarding the book",

I don't recall any book.
What I recall is your badgering me, simply because I'd backed away from communication with you on this board.
Apparently, you did not think that I should have that option.
I now see that you interpreted my backing away as
Quote
"you ceased to love me as your "sister" in Christ"
,
but drawing boundaries is not a cessation of love, Leah.
I'm sorry that people have left you in the past, but I am not they... and I won't allow you to punish me in their place.
As just another wounded person on a recovery message board, I will not accept that role in your life.

Carolyn

No, Carolyn

You have perceived wrongly.

The Book came first - that was when in PM land you sent me a censureship PM and then denied my question regarding your censureship of the book I had posted onto the board.

Your behavior thereafter was hurtful, as you immediately ceased with your expression of "sister in Christ" and friendship. Truly, at the time I was stunned, and hurt.

But, soon after, I prayed and offered the situation up to God, for I can do nothing, as is my belief in serenity.

then

I made a comment in response to your post, on my hyper-competitiveness thread - to which you took offence.

then

if I posted about my FOO on one of your threads e.g. "defensiveness" - your took offence.

I never badgered you on the board.

I detached.

I stopped posting on your threads.

That is the truth.

I just sat back and took it in silence.

Please don't hurl at me that people have left me in the past ....... that is most uncalled for and quite unnecessary. I would never hurl a statement such as that at you, or anyone.

EDIT in: Actually, that is not true, I LEFT my husband, he did not leave me.

Love,

Leah

PS. Lighter, please respect my personal post to Carolyn and kindly refrain from interjection, thanking you with gratitude.
Title: Re: alone, please read: Exploring Victim Mentality
Post by: Certain Hope on June 07, 2008, 03:59:09 PM: Quote from: LeahsRainbow on June 07, 2008, 03:51:57 PM

No, Carolyn

The Book came first - that was when in PM land you denied my question regarding your censureship of the book I had posted onto the board.

Leah,

Maybe "the book" came first for you, but only you would know that.

I never gave anything about a book another thought... and I don't recall anything about the denial of a question in pm.

What I recall is that you posted a link here on the board and I pm'd you to say that I wasn't sure about that website's accuracy.
If there was a book involved, I've forgotten.

Have you been thinking, all this time, that I stopped talking with you because you posted something I considered inappropriate? Is that it?

Carolyn
Title: Re: alone, please read: Exploring Victim Mentality
Post by: Leah on June 07, 2008, 04:15:19 PM: Quote from: Certain Hope on June 07, 2008, 03:59:09 PM
Quote from: LeahsRainbow on June 07, 2008, 03:51:57 PM

No, Carolyn

The Book came first - that was when in PM land you denied my question regarding your censureship of the book I had posted onto the board.

Leah,

Maybe "the book" came first for you, but only you would know that.

I never gave anything about a book another thought... and I don't recall anything about the denial of a question in pm.

What I recall is that you posted a link here on the board and I pm'd you to say that I wasn't sure about that website's accuracy.
If there was a book involved, I've forgotten.

Have you been thinking, all this time, that I stopped talking with you because you posted something I considered inappropriate? Is that it?

Carolyn

Carolyn,

I am a genuine believer, and a genuine person, and so I have been greatly worried that I am in error with a fellow believer, as I have a genuine love of God - for my salvation.

I can post the PM if you so wish, but that isn't something that I would be comfortable with, as PM's are private and confidential, in my view.

But, if it must be done to clear my muddied character and cease that of which I have had to sit with for months now, in silence, then I will reluctantly do that, but, with your permission only.

I posted a book, you PM'd me to say that the book was an inappropriate Christian book title and I ought to delete the post.

Then shortly afterward, I sent to you a PM with the thread link on the board (posted at a time when I was not on board posting) wherein I had found the book, with your positive posting regarding the book.

And so in my PM to you I questioned.

I can only think that you took offence, because I never to this day received a reply.

Then because I was concerned that my questioning PM had upset you, I wrote a PM and tried to send it to you, but, I was "blocked"

I never tried to post a PM to you again.

And from then onward your attitude to me completely changed.

And your "sister in Christ" postings on the board ceased.

Question: what exactly was I supposed to think?

Love, Leah
Title: Re: alone, please read: Exploring Victim Mentality
Post by: Certain Hope on June 07, 2008, 04:19:23 PM: Leah, I would very much like to see these pm's you cite:

Quote
I posted a book, you PM'd me to say that the book was an inappropriate Christian book title and I ought to delete the post.

Then shortly afterward, I sent to you a PM with the thread link on the board (posted at a time when I was not on board posting) wherein I had found the book, with your positive posting regarding the book.

And so in my PM to you I questioned.

Thank you.

Carolyn
Title: Re: alone, please read: Exploring Victim Mentality
Post by: Leah on June 07, 2008, 04:21:26 PM: Quote from: Certain Hope on June 07, 2008, 04:19:23 PM
Leah, I would very much like to see these pm's you cite:

Quote
I posted a book, you PM'd me to say that the book was an inappropriate Christian book title and I ought to delete the post.

Then shortly afterward, I sent to you a PM with the thread link on the board (posted at a time when I was not on board posting) wherein I had found the book, with your positive posting regarding the book.

And so in my PM to you I questioned.

Thank you.

Carolyn

Carolyn,

As you wish, please bear in mind that I have to trawl back through a few months of postings and it won't be instantaneous.

Love,

Leah

PS. By the way, I am not "citing" anything, this is not a court of law.
Title: Re: alone, please read: Exploring Victim Mentality
Post by: Certain Hope on June 07, 2008, 04:22:52 PM: Quote from: LeahsRainbow on June 07, 2008, 04:21:26 PM
Quote from: Certain Hope on June 07, 2008, 04:19:23 PM
Leah, I would very much like to see these pm's you cite:

Quote
I posted a book, you PM'd me to say that the book was an inappropriate Christian book title and I ought to delete the post.

Then shortly afterward, I sent to you a PM with the thread link on the board (posted at a time when I was not on board posting) wherein I had found the book, with your positive posting regarding the book.

And so in my PM to you I questioned.

Thank you.

Carolyn

Carolyn,

As you wish, please bear in mind that I have to trawl back through a few months of postings and it won't be instantaneous.

Love,

Leah

I'll wait, Leah.

Thank you.

Carolyn
Title: Re: alone, please read: Exploring Victim Mentality
Post by: lighter on June 07, 2008, 04:31:45 PM: ::sigh:: I'm thinking that you guys, if you keep posting your feelings and observations without assigning motive.... will figure this out, even if you agree to disagree?

Not sure but..... it's different when an N or sociopath or predator of any type.... is in question, IMO.

Or is it?

::very confused and a little fuzzy by now:;

It's any behavior that muddies one's character... right?

Implies impure motives?

Stating someone lied, stole, injured another is a statement that is a judgement, in it's simplest form.

Just writing it includes implication of motive.

Of a sullied character.

Of ill will.

Even if we don't assign blame.

::going in circles again::

Lighter
Title: Re: alone, please read: Exploring Victim Mentality
Post by: Leah on June 07, 2008, 04:42:06 PM: Lighter,

I did ask you, with a personal boundary,

PS. Lighter, please respect my personal post to Carolyn and kindly refrain from interjection, thanking you with gratitude.

Why have you chose to ignore my personal boundary, request?

And

Why are you extracting one word from my post

and

Gaslighting me?

Gaslighting muddies a persons character, do you actually realize that?

Gaslighting in effect depersonalizes and invalidates a persons reality of experience and being.

I am wading my way back through my PMs at this moment for Carolyn, as she has requested.

Love,

Leah.
Title: Re: alone, please read: Exploring Victim Mentality
Post by: lighter on June 07, 2008, 04:50:19 PM: Quote from: LeahsRainbow on June 07, 2008, 04:42:06 PM

Lighter,

I did ask you, with a personal boundary,

PS. Lighter, please respect my personal post to Carolyn and kindly refrain from interjection, thanking you with gratitude.

Why have you chose to ignore my personal boundary, request?

And

Why are you extracting one word from my post

and

Gaslighting me?

Gaslighting muddies a persons character, do you actually realize that?

Gaslighting in effect depersonalizes and invalidates a person reality of experience and being.

I am working on finding the PMs at this moment for Carolyn as she has requested.

Love, Leah.

I haven't read anywhere that you asked me to butt out of my own thread, lol.

Sorry..... but youre making an assumption without asking for clarification, aren't you?

Not a judgment, but an observation.

::looking to see if Leah just asked me to butt out of my own thread::

:shock:

Lighter
Title: Re: alone, please read: Exploring Victim Mentality
Post by: Leah on June 07, 2008, 04:51:30 PM: Lighter,

I'm thinking that you guys, if you keep posting your feelings and observations without assigning motive

SINGULAR if you please

because the truth is that Carolyn took up issue with me, some hours ago.

All I was doing was minding my own business and posting information regarding RE-VICTIMIZING THE VICTIM etc.

Thank you.

Love, Leah
Title: Re: alone, please read: Exploring Victim Mentality
Post by: lighter on June 07, 2008, 04:54:00 PM: Found it, lol.

Sorry.... I don't always read every word of every post.... esp when I have my own agenda.

Now..... you may wish to consider taking your issue somewhere else if you're going to take over my thread and forbid me from posting: )

Lighter
Title: Re: alone, please read: Exploring Victim Mentality
Post by: Leah on June 07, 2008, 04:54:09 PM: Lighter,

No

I only asked you to refrain from interjecting between Carolyn's post to myself.

You are FREE to post on YOUR THREAD.

Love, Leah
Title: Re: alone, please read: Exploring Victim Mentality
Post by: lighter on June 07, 2008, 04:55:31 PM: Leah... you and I have had this problem communicating before.

I haven't assigned motive or judged either of you... and I'm not going to.

Lighter
Title: Re: alone, please read: Exploring Victim Mentality
Post by: Leah on June 07, 2008, 04:55:44 PM: I GIVE UP

I AM GOING OUT FOR A WALK

AS

I PROMISED MYSELF

ABOUT 1 HOUR AGO

Love to ((((((((((((((((((((((( everyone )))))))))))))))))))))))) Leah
Title: Re: alone, please read: Exploring Victim Mentality
Post by: lighter on June 07, 2008, 05:24:22 PM: [/quote]

it seemed even more odd for me to pretend like I hadn't noticed.

So I'm making it clear in this way - yes, I have noticed.

Carolyn
[/quote]

This is a simple statement, seemingly from an adult who is attempting to engage another adult.

I refer to it's form, rather than content or subject matter.

I don't understand why we can't relate this way....

more often and about subjects that make us uncomfortable.

If we say.... I don't believe you.... that's a value judgement about someone's character, along with being a simple statement, and so... it's taboo to say it?

I may be daft and living in a world where speaking plainly isn't possible.... certainly it feels that way on this forum.... but,

I want to understand why that is.... and niggle out a solution.

I fear there is no solution.... only attorney's high fees and giving up one more hope in order to move past it.

Lighter
Title: Re: alone, please read: Exploring Victim Mentality
Post by: Certain Hope on June 07, 2008, 05:32:43 PM: Lighter,

Maybe I'm wrong, but I think that saying to someone, "you're a liar" - is a judgment on her character...

whereas saying to someone, "I don't believe you" - is the assignation of a boundary, the drawing of a line in the sand, even.

I think that's more like saying, "prove it".

This is the approach I took with npd-ex. All I got in response was bluster and more smokescreens. That's how you know what you've got, in the end.

Speaking plainly is always an option... if you're detached from the outcome.

Gotta know how invested you are in the reactions you may get...
and determin whether or not you can handle the rejection which is most likely.
Nonetheless, direct confrontation is, I believe, the loving thing to do.

Carolyn
Title: Re: alone, please read: Exploring Victim Mentality
Post by: Izzy_*now* on June 08, 2008, 02:50:27 AM: I posted this elsewhere re victim mentality.

A victim is a victim and always will be until she realizes there is another choice. When she chooses to not be a victim and to be a survivor, we have have one less victim in the world.

Some are professional victims. They will not move out of that state because it is 'comfortable' and maybe they like being a victim so they can keep on bit&hing about their sorry state in life, and try to gain the sympathy of the people with whom they share their severe problems in life.

If she will leave her abuser behind and moves forward in another state of being, she can be called a survivor.

I say it is as simple as that!
Title: Re: alone, please read: Exploring Victim Mentality
Post by: Certain Hope on June 08, 2008, 02:58:01 PM: I've chosen to stop waiting for you to provide those pm's you referenced, Leah.

Just wanted you to know that.

Carolyn
Title: Re: alone, please read: Exploring Victim Mentality
Post by: lighter on June 09, 2008, 10:04:03 AM: Quote from: Certain Hope on June 07, 2008, 05:32:43 PM
Lighter,

Maybe I'm wrong, but I think that saying to someone, "you're a liar" - is a judgment on her character...

whereas saying to someone, "I don't believe you" - is the assignation of a boundary, the drawing of a line in the sand, even.

I think that's more like saying, "prove it".

This is the approach I took with npd-ex. All I got in response was bluster and more smokescreens. That's how you know what you've got, in the end.

Speaking plainly is always an option... if you're detached from the outcome.

Carolyn

I can honestly say that I've seen this dynamic, in 3d and on the board.....

and there will always be those who deny it's bluster and smoke screen we're seeing, when we KNOW what it is.

Whether it's one group from this year or the last.... it's similar in that there's always going to be confusion surrounding it....

terrible thing.

Are you saying that "you know what you've got" is the operative phrase here?

I can't imagine a life where I have enough experience and knowledge about dark things to see the man behind the curtain..... and not be able to talk about it bc of those who say they don't see it...... so I must be wrong.... along with judgemnts about making that observation.

That's something I'm going to have to think about for a while.

OK...
Here's where the circle comes back around.

I make an observation, "I don't believe you."

That can be perceived as a negative criticism and will be turned into one by a gaslighter, always. Thats the way they work.

SO..... whoever was on the receiving end of the observation will come back with an observation of their own....

they might claim that statement to be "an attack, gaslighting, predatory, cruel" for instance.... sometimes their supporters do it for them.

Now... thats just an observation on their part, right?

Though it makes a statement on one's character, no doubt. Just an observation bc they say it is.

My point is.... if they're response is THE smokescreen... the blustering.... how does one tell the difference, when standing on the outskirts of the skirmish?

You say it's the form.

Had they come back with a response that drew boundaries, questioned and asked for clarification.... then we would see the absense of blustering and gaslighting?

When the form takes on criticism, namecalling, judgements..... then we know what we've got?

Sort of depends on the maturity of the people involved, I think.

Thank you
Title: Re: alone, please read: Exploring Victim Mentality
Post by: Certain Hope on June 09, 2008, 10:54:57 AM: Quote from: lighter on June 09, 2008, 10:04:03 AM
Quote from: Certain Hope on June 07, 2008, 05:32:43 PM
Lighter,

Maybe I'm wrong, but I think that saying to someone, "you're a liar" - is a judgment on her character...

whereas saying to someone, "I don't believe you" - is the assignation of a boundary, the drawing of a line in the sand, even.

I think that's more like saying, "prove it".

This is the approach I took with npd-ex. All I got in response was bluster and more smokescreens. That's how you know what you've got, in the end.

Speaking plainly is always an option... if you're detached from the outcome.

Carolyn

I can honestly say that I've seen this dynamic, in 3d and on the board.....

and there will always be those who deny it's bluster and smoke screen we're seeing, when we KNOW what it is.

Whether it's one group from this year or the last.... it's similar in that there's always going to be confusion surrounding it....

terrible thing.

Are you saying that "you know what you've got" is the operative phrase here?

I can't imagine a life where I have enough experience and knowledge about dark things to see the man behind the curtain..... and not be able to talk about it bc of those who say they don't see it...... so I must be wrong.... along with judgemnts about making that observation.

That's something I'm going to have to think about for a while.

OK...
Here's where the circle comes back around.

I make an observation, "I don't believe you."

That can be perceived as a negative criticism and will be turned into one by a gaslighter, always. Thats the way they work.

SO..... whoever was on the receiving end of the observation will come back with an observation of their own....

they might claim that statement to be "an attack, gaslighting, predatory, cruel" for instance.... sometimes their supporters do it for them.

Now... thats just an observation on their part, right?

Though it makes a statement on one's character, no doubt. Just an observation bc they say it is.

My point is.... if they're response is THE smokescreen... the blustering.... how does one tell the difference, when standing on the outskirts of the skirmish?

You say it's the form.

Had they come back with a response that drew boundaries, questioned and asked for clarification.... then we would see the absense of blustering and gaslighting?

When the form takes on criticism, namecalling, judgements..... then we know what we've got?

Sort of depends on the maturity of the people involved, I think.

Thank you

Yes, Lighter... for me, "you know what you've got" has been the operative phrase here.

Here's my own situation...

I have a strong inclination to avoid difficulties... and especially confrontations.

I also have a very dangerous old habit of filling in the blanks (of all the questions I didn't ask, because I'm avoidant,) with material out of my own active and presumptive imagination.
I may wind up framing an accurate portrait, but who can say for sure?

They say that knowledge is power...
but that is true only when the knowledge is applied with wisdom.

If I have enough experience and knowledge to see the Wiz for what he is, then what?
Hopefully I have the wisdom to know what to do with that knowledge.

Trying to show others how my knowledge of the Wiz applies to them would not be wise, imo.
That'd be like parking outside a magic act, with an audience full of true believers, and trying to convince them that it's all a hoax. That magician just pulled a rabbit out of little Joey's ear... surely I'm mistaken. Yeah huh. I'd expect to be seen as a spoiled sport... at best.

Lighter... I've pondered these things alot, for example - with regard to Christian ministries that I don't believe are authentic or accurate. Is that where my locus of focus is supposed to be placed? I don't want to choose to live on the dark side in that way.
There are already more than enough heresy-hunters on the market.

Uncovering it for ourselves is one thing... but when we get this irresistable urge to talk about it, on and on, that's the time for us to examine our own motivation, I think.
Because really, I think then that it's shifted over into the arena of vengeance. more than any sort of justice... cuz justice will always come to those who fake their way through life anyhow.
Speak up, speak out, and then let it go... that's what works for me, I'm finding.
Letting go means doing our own part to lighten the load of others who aren't hiding behind the curtain.

Why would I care so much what the "outsiders" think?
I think that's the real question.

Do I require validation so much that I can't go on without trying to dredge it up?
Don't I trust my own experience?

Others might get enveloped by the smokescreen for any number of reasons...
maybe they're simply too busy with their own stuff to turn on the fan...
but that's not my business.
Don't we each have enough stuff of our own to sort without devoting so much energy into trying to make others see something that may be meant only for us?

Quote
Had they come back with a response that drew boundaries, questioned and asked for clarification.... then we would see the absense of blustering and gaslighting?

When the form takes on criticism, namecalling, judgements..... then we know what we've got?

Yes, I think so.
NPD has a uniquely obnoxious method of defending by attacking... and I won't mess with it.

Quote
Sort of depends on the maturity of the people involved, I think.

Partly, yes... and anybody can grow and change...
but watching what happens next often provides the rest of the story.
The one who continues to dig his hole deeper and shovel dirt atop anyone who gets in the way... well, yanno.

Thanks to you, too.

Carolyn
Title: Re: alone, please read: Exploring Victim Mentality
Post by: Gabben on June 09, 2008, 12:28:53 PM: Quote from: LeahsRainbow on June 07, 2008, 01:04:45 PM
Quote from: Certain Hope on June 07, 2008, 12:59:23 PM
Quote from: LeahsRainbow on June 07, 2008, 12:53:01 PM
Quote from: Certain Hope on June 07, 2008, 12:46:20 PM
This is getting a bit beyond weird, so I'm going to mention it.

On more occasions than I can count, I've noticed that when I post after Leah, she returns to the thread, deletes her previous post, and re-posts it after mine.

I don't want to assume or assign motives, I'm only mentioning it because - like I said - I find it exceedingly odd.

Carolyn

Carolyn,

You may not have found it so odd, IF you had conversed with me, and asked me why I GENERALLY (not just your post) sometimes do delete the previous post AFTER editting the post due to my error (grammar error i.e. comma's - which has been pointed out to me on the board - failure to use spellcheck - or addition - or complete mess in the way I have written something - as I am not a professional writer .......... no surprise!).

Because, I choose to do so.

No rules for typing here, thank goodness.

Love,

Leah

No, indeed, Leah... I do still find it exceedingly odd... and well beyond the reasoning you've stated here.

You add to your posts all the time, via the edit function.
But when you move your posts ahead on the thread, it's when I've posted after you.
Been watching this for ages, so there's no doubt about it in my mind.

I have your post in question from this thread saved, because I'd wondered whether you'd do the same thing again (as you've already done elsewhere, today).
There are no substantial changes.

In other words, I don't believe you, Leah... but that's okay. I can live with that.

I just wanted to state the facts as I've observed them and now I can let it go.

Carolyn

Carolyn,

You must have nothing better to do, than watch Leah's every move, and save Leah's posts, and check to see what Leah is doing.

You clearly have had an issue with me, and that is YOUR ownership, not mine.

All because I dared to question.

Love,

Leah

That is twisted....totally twisted...I pay zero attention to you Leah...except that fact that you take a break from the board for ONE DAY...then come back posting up a storm of threads....all of which I might add are in exact topic area of my threads...it would be hard NOT to pay attention to you Leah...as I try my hardest, but your need for attention on this board and your manipulation as well as covert aggression is pretty apparent.

I see exactly what she is doing Carolyn....I see it, I get it...you are not losing your minds...:Leah's gaslighting is evident.
Title: Re: alone, please read: Exploring Victim Mentality
Post by: Leah on June 09, 2008, 12:40:13 PM: Quote

You agree, through your use of this forum, that you will not post any material which is false, defamatory, inaccurate, abusive, vulgar, hateful, harassing,

obscene, profane, sexually oriented, threatening, invasive of a person's privacy

Gabben,

You continuous posting of hatred and contempt for me is all too apparent. I do not fear you, nor indeed Carolyn or Lighter.

Please be advised that I have flagged up your defamatory posting of hatred, contempt and harassment, toward me -- to the owner of this board, as enough is enough, I feel.

I left my husband and divorced him.

I with not be re-victimized, vilified, or villainized for anyone.

Enough is enough.

I have grace and mercy in my heart that you have always confused me with your n-saint person.

Love, Leah
Title: Re: alone, please read: Exploring Victim Mentality
Post by: Gabben on June 09, 2008, 12:53:50 PM: Quote from: LeahsRainbow on June 09, 2008, 12:40:13 PM

Quote

You agree, through your use of this forum, that you will not post any material which is false, defamatory, inaccurate, abusive, vulgar, hateful, harassing,

obscene, profane, sexually oriented, threatening, invasive of a person's privacy

Gabben,

You continuous posting of hatred and contempt for me is all too apparent.

Leah,

It is not you that I hold in contempt...it is the behavior. As for hatred...please refer to my letting go of hatred and anger thread...I've checked my heart there is no hatred for you anymore, just frustration and sadness.

Perhaps you should check your heart, Leah....perhaps?

Lise
Title: Re: alone, please read: Exploring Victim Mentality
Post by: Certain Hope on June 09, 2008, 01:09:07 PM: Lise, I appreciate your direct statement of your views here... thank you.

Leah, you have made no less direct statements of your views here.
Just one example: you charged Lighter with gaslighting you.

I don't know why you feel that Lise's statement is defamatory but yours is not, but I think you're wrong.

I wish that you had just been willing to consider the possibility that your perception of what happened between us might have been skewed...
but sadly you seem to be willing to engage in all sorts of distortion rather than address that possibility.
I don't know why that is, but I'm sorry for it.

Carolyn
Title: Re: alone, please read: Exploring Victim Mentality
Post by: Gabben on June 09, 2008, 01:11:23 PM: Quote from: LeahsRainbow on June 09, 2008, 12:40:13 PM

You agree, through your use of this forum, that you will not post any material which is false, defamatory, inaccurate, abusive, vulgar, hateful, harassing,

obscene, profane, sexually oriented, threatening, invasive of a person's privacy

And...one last thing:

Leah,

Most nothing I have posted about your behavior is untrue, inaccurate, abusive, vulgar, or hateful, or harassing...nada. Your behavior, on the other hand, is covertly aggressive, and dishonest.....I see and many others here do to.

As for confusing you with Nsaint...did I ever put those words out there?...please show me a thread or a post where I ever confused you with Nsaint...are you putting words in my mouth? Mindreading?

No, the exact opposite is that I have not confused you for anyone other than who you are....

All facts...

Lise
Title: Re: alone, please read: Exploring Victim Mentality
Post by: wiltay on June 09, 2008, 03:11:40 PM: Lise, you have totally gone off the deep end and joined the lies being perpetrated on this board. Leah IMO has genuine humility and always puts the truth before herself, even if it's not flattering. IME, her first loyalty is always to the truth, not to herself. I am amazed how well she keeps her sanity in the chaos and craziness that Lighter is always behind. Where ever there is trouble, Lighter is never far away. People seem to forget that at least twice Lighter has been threatened with expulsion from the board for her abusive behavior towards Ami. In her own mind, Ami has always been the villain but the facts clearly contradict the lie. The abuser is Lighter, always has been. Now it is Leah being attacked now that (most) people have ceased to buy the lies about Ami.

Carolyn and Lighter make a great 'tag-team.' They are both so full of holier-than-thou false humility, it would be laughable if it weren't so grotesque. Lise, you are wrong about Leah. I hope I was not wrong about you.

Quote from: Gabben on June 09, 2008, 01:11:23 PM
Quote from: LeahsRainbow on June 09, 2008, 12:40:13 PM

You agree, through your use of this forum, that you will not post any material which is false, defamatory, inaccurate, abusive, vulgar, hateful, harassing,

obscene, profane, sexually oriented, threatening, invasive of a person's privacy

And...one last thing:

Leah,

Most nothing I have posted about your behavior is untrue, inaccurate, abusive, vulgar, or hateful, or harassing...nada. Your behavior, on the other hand, is covertly aggressive, and dishonest.....I see and many others here do to.

As for confusing you with Nsaint...did I ever put those words out there?...please show me a thread or a post where I ever confused you with Nsaint...are you putting words in my mouth? Mindreading?

No, the exact opposite is that I have not confused you for anyone other than who you are....

All facts...

Lise
Title: Re: alone, please read: Exploring Victim Mentality
Post by: Certain Hope on June 09, 2008, 03:49:58 PM: Quote from: wiltay on June 09, 2008, 03:11:40 PM

Carolyn and Lighter make a great 'tag-team.' They are both so full of holier-than-thou false humility, it would be laughable if it weren't so grotesque. Lise, you are wrong about Leah. I hope I was not wrong about you.

I don't know who you are, Wiltay... and to the best of my recollection, I don't think we've ever addressed each other on the board... but I just want to let you know that your view of me is meaningless, as far as I'm concerned, and I don't hold it against you.

Carolyn
Title: Re: alone, please read: Exploring Victim Mentality
Post by: Gabben on June 09, 2008, 04:03:10 PM: Dear Bill,

Perhaps if you were not biased in your friendship with Ami, a married woman, your vision of reality would not be so skewed.

You ARE wrong about Leah.....one day the truth will be known.

But, until then...Ami....I am NOT your friend...You can have your N's and P's and your skewed view of reality -- this time you have gone too far in your vendetta with Lighter as to use me as a pawn because of my conflict with Leah.

Friendship over............that is a boundary for me.

Lise
Title: Re: alone, please read: Exploring Victim Mentality
Post by: Gabben on June 09, 2008, 04:08:29 PM: Quote from: wiltay on June 09, 2008, 03:11:40 PM
I am amazed how well she keeps her sanity in the chaos and craziness that Lighter is always behind.

FYI -- Did it ever occur to you that the sanity that Leah is so good at is a mask??

Wake up Bill.....I used to respect you, but now I realize that you are just as lost as Ami is in this reality.

What amazes me is how for so long I have stood up for Ami on this board. Now, she turns on me the minute she see's an opening for her own self interests.
Title: Re: alone, please read: Exploring Victim Mentality
Post by: Dr. Richard Grossman on June 09, 2008, 04:10:05 PM: Hi everybody,

This thread will be locked around 10 p.m. EST., so everybody should have their last say before then. If anyone wants "no-contact" with another member, please make that clear. Lighter--if you want to restart your original thread in a new topic, please feel free.

Best,

Richard
Title: Re: alone, please read: Exploring Victim Mentality
Post by: Gabben on June 09, 2008, 05:41:41 PM: Ami,

I stood up for you soooooooooooooo many times, I have been a loyal friend to you, over and over again. I have done so out of principal and what I saw was truth. How is it that you can turn on someone who has defended you and saved your back so many times so easliy...that is really sad. Your actions are without principal.

Just because I have issues with Leah do not have anything to do with how I percieve Lighter and the situation between you two.

But, you saw an opening, you figured that it does not look good for you to be getting along with Leah and for Carolyn, myself and Lighter to all be against Leah. So, you had to drag Bill into it to make me look bad to save yourself.

You have only one principal and that is to yourself and your own needs.

It is rare for me to end a freindship. With you, in the past few months, I have been in tolerance....now I am finally in relief to cut ties and I do not feel ashamed at all to have been your firend...it is just that I bet many here can see how I have been loyal to you and you have turned on me without even a shred of regret or shame.

Lise
Title: Re: alone, please read: Exploring Victim Mentality
Post by: Gabben on June 09, 2008, 05:45:05 PM: Ami,

Please do not send me anymore PM's. I will ask Dr. Grossman to block you, if possible.

I am done communicating with you.

This betrayal from you was the final blow for me.

Lise
Title: Re: alone, please read: Exploring Victim Mentality
Post by: Leah on June 09, 2008, 05:53:37 PM: Dear Wiltay,

I don't know who you are in real life, however, I do know in real life that no man has ever stood up with such boldness and spoke up for me,

- not my brother, not my exhusband, not my father - they never spoke up for me at all.

So, your words are precious to me as a person in real life, and so I won't allow for such pearls moistened by my tears of gratitude to be trampled underfoot by anyone.

Those words belong to me, Leah, as genuine person in real life.

May God Bless you and make himself known to you personally, is my prayer of thanksgiving.

Love, Leah
Title: Re: alone, please read: Exploring Victim Mentality
Post by: Gabben on June 09, 2008, 06:41:28 PM: Quote from: LeahsRainbow on June 07, 2008, 12:43:54 PM

Your anger, like any pain, will pass. If someone punches you, he is to blame for your pain, not you. By the same token, the one to blame for your anger is your abuser, not you.

wow, this tooks the words right out of my mouth....
Title: Re: alone, please read: Exploring Victim Mentality
Post by: Izzy_*now* on June 09, 2008, 07:09:40 PM: I finally read this thread, from beginning to end........except.....
.....I don't read posts that are copied and pasted from some professional's site. I might have done that myself, in the past, but I find that I don't learn anything more about the poster from such a post. I prefer a poster's own words about herself. I think that that way I can learn more about the person.

The dialogue between Leah and Carolyn, I felt, was done 'well', without anger, just boundaries.

I'm saying this at the end, and it is somewhat what lighter said.... that L. & C. were being well behaved.

I would have preferred that lighter not be chastised on her own thread., but that could have been me.

I was some surprised to suddenly see Gabben arrive on the scene , then the dialogue between her and Ami. That used to be a case of my noticing that Lise followed Ami around the board and supported her. ...opposite to Leah following Carolyn or vise versa (re double post)

Wiltay, on the other hand, was more of a surprise! I often wonder how many times a member PMs another to QUICK!!!!!! get to such-and-such a post and support me!

If anyone is following where my loyaties are, one might think I am against Ami. I am not against her, as a person. She has many mountains to climb. I just hate reading the way she types her posts. There I said it. A comma after the wrong words, lol is out-of date, and there are no spaces between words at times with "too" "many" "quotes" The style does not make me feel I am 'talking with' a human being who attended University.

So my mentality is saying that I prefer better typing, and I do not read Copied and Pasted posts. I would prefer the link, followed by the poster's own opinion.

There is absolutely no offence intended in my post but I have said it now and hope it is understood that it is a part of me, and doesn't have to be a part of anyone else.

We all know many times it is not the person but the behaviour/habits

Iz
Title: Re: alone, please read: Exploring Victim Mentality
Post by: Leah on June 09, 2008, 07:14:02 PM: Quote from: Gabben on June 09, 2008, 06:41:28 PM

Quote from: LeahsRainbow on June 07, 2008, 12:43:54 PM

Your anger, like any pain, will pass. If someone punches you, he is to blame for your pain, not you. By the same token, the one to blame for your anger is your abuser, not you.

wow, this tooks the words right out of my mouth....

Where is the integrity? here on the board.

When the very person who declared that LeahsRainbow was forbidden from posting onto Gabbens threads (after posting in error to Darren - as LeahsRainbow had NOT posted or engaged with Gabben due to her own personal choice and boundary ) can just go and blatantly ignore what the owner of the board, Dr Richard Grossman posted in addressing Gabben (on LeahsRainbow's thread) that Gabben should not post on LeahsRainbow's thread, the directive being fair and reasonable.

So, Gabben purposely takes a quote from LeahsRainbow and posts it here on this thread with a message of some kind, I won't opinionate.

This deliberate action can only speak for itself and evident lack of integrity.

Leah
Title: Re: alone, please read: Exploring Victim Mentality
Post by: Leah on June 09, 2008, 07:19:36 PM: Dear Izzy,

I created a thread once, remember, entitled "Envy" and we discussed that.

I also created a thread with a listing of my postings to show that I had posted prior to any that Gabben had.

Now, also, there is an internet with a vast array of articles and information, and it is more than likely that more than one person is reading them and applying them to a given situation.

I have never ever followed anyone round the board.

Trust you will allow my voice of clarification in this absurd matter which has gone on for much too long now.

Yours impartially,

and independently

Love, Leah
Title: Re: alone, please read: Exploring Victim Mentality
Post by: wiltay on June 09, 2008, 07:20:27 PM: Lise, I honestly didn't mean to hurt you, but I saw a truth that needed to be told in the midst of the lies being told about Leah. . I DO believe you were greatly harmed by a saintly N but Leah is NOT a saintly N, whatever you may imagine. IMO, you are attacking her because of the distortions brought about by your own pain. I believe strongly that what you say about Leah is not true and that it constitutes an abuse to promote hurtful lies against her. It seems to me that you are allowing the evil done to you to grow in your own heart.

Quote from: Gabben on June 09, 2008, 04:03:10 PM
Dear Bill,

Perhaps if you were not having an affair with Ami, a married woman, your vision of reality would not be so skewed.

You ARE wrong about Leah.....one day the truth will be known.

But, until then...Ami....I am NOT your friend...You can have your N's and P's and your skewed view of reality -- this time you have gone too far in your vendetta with Lighter as to use me as a pawn because of my conflict with Leah.

Friendship over............that is a boundary for me.

Lise
Title: Re: alone, please read: Exploring Victim Mentality
Post by: lighter on June 09, 2008, 07:22:36 PM: ::wondering off the thread.... speechless::
Title: Re: alone, please read: Exploring Victim Mentality
Post by: Gabben on June 09, 2008, 07:29:24 PM: Quote from: LeahsRainbow on June 09, 2008, 07:14:02 PM

Where is the integrity? here on the board.

Speak for yourself...

Quote from: LeahsRainbow on June 09, 2008, 07:14:02 PM
When the very person who declared that LeahsRainbow was forbidden from posting onto Gabbens threads can just go and blatantly ignore what the owner of the board, Dr Richard Grossman posted in addressing Gabben (on LeahsRainbow's thread) that Gabben should not post on LeahsRainbow's thread, the directive being fair and reasonable.

Am I an object, Leah?

Leah,

What I requested was that you do not post on my threads.

What I have done here is taken a piece of an article, not written by you and not on your thread, but on a post.

There are the facts...very clear and miles away from your smear.
Title: Re: alone, please read: Exploring Victim Mentality
Post by: Ami on June 09, 2008, 07:34:48 PM: Dear Lise
Since I can't PM you, I will tell you, here, that I would never do ANYTHING to hurt you. I appreciate every single time you were on my side, many times you were the only one.I have been in very difficult situations and you had courage and conviction and expressed them, on my behalf.You were selfless in your loyalty to me , your friend.
I do not agree with how you view Leah, but I can still love you, and her, too. You may not see that as possible, but I do. I wish you everything good, Lise, everything that life has to offer.
My heart is open to you if you should ever change your mind about me. If not,with sadness ,I respect your wishes. Ami
Title: Re: alone, please read: Exploring Victim Mentality
Post by: Leah on June 09, 2008, 07:35:18 PM: Re: alone, please read: Exploring Victim Mentality
« Reply #67 on: June 09, 2008, 11:41:28 PM »

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Quote from: LeahsRainbow on June 07, 2008, 05:43:54 PM

Your anger, like any pain, will pass. If someone punches you, he is to blame for your pain, not you. By the same token, the one to blame for your anger is your abuser, not you.

wow, this tooks the words right out of my mouth....

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
You know quite well, deep within you, that there

What I have done here is taken a piece of an article, not written by you and not on your thread, but on a post.

Gabben,

You say that it is not on my thread, well how come it clearly displays Quote from: LeahsRainbow on June 07, 2008, 05:43:54 PM

Leah
Title: Re: alone, please read: Exploring Victim Mentality
Post by: Gabben on June 09, 2008, 07:36:40 PM: "IMO, you are attacking her because of the distortions brought about by your own pain."

Bill,

Please do not psychoanalyze me.

Bill, if you really wanted to...if you really, really, really wanted to...all you have to do to figure out the truth about Leah is check your gut, the truth us right there.

FYI -- you have not hurt me...

I love the truth and seeing someone like you, who I very much thought had it together, yet is lost in denial is what hurts.

Lise
Title: Re: alone, please read: Exploring Victim Mentality
Post by: Gabben on June 09, 2008, 07:41:21 PM: Quote from: LeahsRainbow on June 09, 2008, 07:35:18 PM
Re: alone, please read: Exploring Victim Mentality
« Reply #67 on: June 09, 2008, 11:41:28 PM »

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Quote from: LeahsRainbow on June 07, 2008, 05:43:54 PM

Your anger, like any pain, will pass. If someone punches you, he is to blame for your pain, not you. By the same token, the one to blame for your anger is your abuser, not you.

wow, this tooks the words right out of my mouth....

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
You know quite well, deep within you, that there

What I have done here is taken a piece of an article, not written by you and not on your thread, but on a post.

Gabben,

You say that it is not on my thread, well how come it clearly displays Quote from: LeahsRainbow on June 07, 2008, 05:43:54 PM

Leah

Leah,

That is a post, from this thread, this is not your thread.

Is that clear?

Lise
Title: Re: alone, please read: Exploring Victim Mentality
Post by: wiltay on June 09, 2008, 07:50:31 PM: I have to say Izzy, that while I don't like you much, you are a 'truth teller' in that you don't ever seem to deliberately lie to serve your own purposes (unlike some others that I can think of). I think many of your perceptions and observations are completely wrong and even rather mean, but I don't believe you are a malicious person at heart. I didn't always believe that. I'm not sure what I'm trying to say here. This is not intended as a back-handed compliment and I am certainly not interested in being friends with you. You have said some unbelievable cruel things to someone I love which were clueless and unforgivable, but I have to give you some grudging respect for a rare type of honesty. Do with this what you will.

Quote from: Izzy_*now* on June 09, 2008, 07:09:40 PM
I finally read this thread, from beginning to end........except.....
.....I don't read posts that are copied and pasted from some professional's site. I might have done that myself, in the past, but I find that I don't learn anything more about the poster from such a post. I prefer a poster's own words about herself. I think that that way I can learn more about the person.

The dialogue between Leah and Carolyn, I felt, was done 'well', without anger, just boundaries.

I'm saying this at the end, and it is somewhat what lighter said.... that L. & C. were being well behaved.

I would have preferred that lighter not be chastised on her own thread., but that could have been me.

I was some surprised to suddenly see Gabben arrive on the scene , then the dialogue between her and Ami. That used to be a case of my noticing that Lise followed Ami around the board and supported her. ...opposite to Leah following Carolyn or vise versa (re double post)

Wiltay, on the other hand, was more of a surprise! I often wonder how many times a member PMs another to QUICK!!!!!! get to such-and-such a post and support me!

If anyone is following where my loyaties are, one might think I am against Ami. I am not against her, as a person. She has many mountains to climb. I just hate reading the way she types her posts. There I said it. A comma after the wrong words, lol is out-of date, and there are no spaces between words at times with "too" "many" "quotes" The style does not make me feel I am 'talking with' a human being who attended University.

So my mentality is saying that I prefer better typing, and I do not read Copied and Pasted posts. I would prefer the link, followed by the poster's own opinion.

There is absolutely no offence intended in my post but I have said it now and hope it is understood that it is a part of me, and doesn't have to be a part of anyone else.

We all know many times it is not the person but the behaviour/habits

Iz
Title: Re: The hijacking of a thread: Victim Mentality.... wasn't wiltay banned?
Post by: Gabben on June 09, 2008, 07:53:39 PM: No Lighter....You were almost banned....twice Dr. G has had to warn you.

Bill has never been warned. Bill left the board because of you and your toxic waste that you used to throw at Ami.

And, although I have issues now with Bill and Ami for the lack of truth, I still am not happy with the way you monopolize this board and deceive people.

I also have issues with you for trying to distract everyone and appear so superior when in fact you are the token board bully and everyone knows it. How many of my threads in the past have you tried to hijack before I set some solid limits?

If there is anyone calling the kettle black, Lighter, it is you.

Lise
Title: Re: alone, please read: Exploring Victim Mentality
Post by: wiltay on June 09, 2008, 07:58:07 PM: Lise, can't you see that you are justing making my point?

Quote from: Gabben on June 09, 2008, 07:46:29 PM
Quote from: wiltay on June 09, 2008, 07:20:27 PM
It seems to me that you are allowing the evil done to you to grow in your own heart.

I'm not the one having an affair with a married woman whose husband is suicidal....
Title: Re: The hijacking of a thread: Victim Mentality.... wasn't wiltay banned?
Post by: Gabben on June 09, 2008, 08:06:23 PM: Quote from: Ami on June 09, 2008, 07:58:56 PM
You know, I have shared my life, as an open book , on the board.
I met the love of my life and am NOT having an affair, but doing EVEYTHING above board.
I am not asking to be believed , just setting the record straight.
Bill is everything that every woman dreams of and God saw fit to give him to me.I try to honor God ,with my life, to the best of my ability. If you want to judge me, you can. Ami

It is not about judging you Ami. I have told you how I have felt in private many times because I loved you and I felt that I could not let it go without speaking my truth. I'm not trying to make you feel bad, Lord knows I have done many bad and wrong things in my own life.

The point I'm trying to make is that the only reason that Bill is saying that I am off on my perception is because of yours and his relationship.

To tell someone that there perception is wrong, is crazy making stuff, which is wrong....especially, if the only reason they are doing it is to protect there own interests.

If Bill wanted to he too could see the truth. But, because of his strong feelings for you he is blinded.

You dragged Bill into this because you want to win your game with Lighter and turn him on me as well, that is the point. When you make decisions based on self....you place yourself in a position to be hurt.

Think about that one.....

Lise
Title: Re: The hijacking of a thread: Victim Mentality.... wasn't wiltay banned?
Post by: wiltay on June 09, 2008, 08:12:12 PM: Lise, I could care less about Lighter. Ami did not put me up to anything-zero. What inspired me was Leah's predicament, which is very similar to my own and also YOURS, I might add. Also, please don't say you're only interested in truth and then make things up.

Quote from: Gabben on June 09, 2008, 07:56:14 PM
Quote from: Ami on June 09, 2008, 07:51:15 PM
That is so freaking low, Lise.

What you are doing behind your husbands back is low....very low.

It would break his heart and you know it - truth hurts Ami, right?

I'll delete these posts about the affair, because I am not about hurting you, but I do want to make a point about how Bill is here only because Ami asked Bill to so that Ami could use me and my conflict with Leah to try to win Ami's fight with lighter...

Bill has an old bone to pick with lighter.

I could care less about winning, I just care about the truth.

Lise
Title: Re: The hijacking of a thread: Victim Mentality.... wasn't wiltay banned?
Post by: Izzy_*now* on June 09, 2008, 08:14:06 PM: Well Bill (wiltay)

You gave me a good laugh :lol: :lol: :lol: with your post.

It was very back-handed and you might be the only person on Board who has finally 'pegged me' knowing that I wouldn't hurt a fly, but I also use some tough language when I see/read something to which I am trying to respond, and it is out of my league. :( I am NOT a University graduate. I am from a generation older than everyone here.

I'm sure you would like me if we were to meet in person. Everybody does! :D :D :D

regards
Granny
(Izzy)

Oh my! I see the thread title has changed.
Title: Re: The hijacking of a thread: Victim Mentality.... wasn't wiltay banned?
Post by: Gabben on June 09, 2008, 08:15:45 PM: Quote from: wiltay on June 09, 2008, 08:12:12 PM
Lise, I could care less about Lighter. Ami did not put me up to anything-zero. What inspired me was Leah's predicament, which is very similar to my own and also YOURS, I might add. Also, please don't say you're only interested in truth and then make things up.

Quote from: Gabben on June 09, 2008, 07:56:14 PM
Quote from: Ami on June 09, 2008, 07:51:15 PM
That is so freaking low, Lise.

What you are doing behind your husbands back is low....very low.

It would break his heart and you know it - truth hurts Ami, right?

I'll delete these posts about the affair, because I am not about hurting you, but I do want to make a point about how Bill is here only because Ami asked Bill to so that Ami could use me and my conflict with Leah to try to win Ami's fight with lighter...

Bill has an old bone to pick with lighter.

I could care less about winning, I just care about the truth.

Lise

Bill,

If you and Ami were to just get honest with yourselves I would be here for you... I am still here for you, no matter what.

I care.. you know I am deep, not shallow and you know that I am real, and really honest.

Lise
Title: Re: The hijacking of a thread: Victim Mentality.... wasn't wiltay banned?
Post by: Ami on June 09, 2008, 08:18:55 PM: Dear Lise
I think you can tell from Bill's strength and integrity that HE is not the type of person who would be a "marching clone" for anyone.If he and I disagree with you, we can still love you, even if you do not return the sentiment.
Ami
Title: Re: The hijacking of a thread: Victim Mentality.... wasn't wiltay banned?
Post by: Gabben on June 09, 2008, 08:19:52 PM: Quote from: Ami on June 09, 2008, 08:18:55 PM
Dear Lise
I think you can tell from Bill's strength and integrity(even if you disagree with his POV) that HE is not the type of person who would be a "marching clone" for anyone.
Ami

And neither am I.
Title: Re: The hijacking of a thread: Victim Mentality.... wasn't wiltay banned?
Post by: wiltay on June 09, 2008, 08:20:24 PM: Lise, thank you for this bit of truth. The rest you are simply wrong about. Some things you see with razor-sharp clarity, others through pain-distorted glass. I don't claim to be any different.

Quote from: Gabben on June 09, 2008, 07:53:39 PM
No Lighter....You were almost banned....twice Dr. G has had to warn you.

Bill has never been warned. Bill left the board because of you and your toxic waste that you used to throw at Ami.

And, although I have issues now with Bill and Ami for the lack of truth, I still am not happy with the way you monopolize this board and deceive people.

I also have issues with you for trying to distract everyone and appear so superior when in fact you are the token board bully and everyone knows it. How many of my threads in the past have you tried to hijack before I set some solid limits?

If there is anyone calling the kettle black, Lighter, it is you.

Lise
Title: Re: The hijacking of a thread: Victim Mentality.... wasn't wiltay banned?
Post by: Ami on June 09, 2008, 08:25:25 PM: Quote from: Gabben on June 09, 2008, 07:53:39 PM
No Lighter....You were almost banned....twice Dr. G has had to warn you.

Bill has never been warned. Bill left the board because of you and your toxic waste that you used to throw at Ami.

And, although I have issues now with Bill and Ami for the lack of truth, I still am not happy with the way you monopolize this board and deceive people.

I also have issues with you for trying to distract everyone and appear so superior when in fact you are the token board bully and everyone knows it. How many of my threads in the past have you tried to hijack before I set some solid limits?

If there is anyone calling the kettle black, Lighter, it is you.

Lise
[/quote]

THIS is the TRUTH of the thread! We can ALL agree on this, Lise. Ami
Title: Re: One toadie come out'n play, one toadie go away.
Post by: Leah on June 09, 2008, 08:34:39 PM: Oh, I see what you mean Izzy, the title has changed.

Love,

Leah
Title: Re: The hijacking of a thread: Victim Mentality.... wasn't wiltay banned?
Post by: Gabben on June 09, 2008, 08:38:14 PM: Ami,

What happened is that you saw Carolyn and +(lighter) going a bit against Leah on this thread.

So then, in your fear, that I, because of my friendship with Carolyn and my dislike of Leah's behavior on this board was going to turn to lighter and turn on you, you had Bill step in; I can only assume, but my gut tells me that you asked him to step in to look and defend Leah to support your fears.

In the past I have had conflict with Leah, you, Ami have stayed neutral as well as Bill has never said anything....until now, interesting.

This conflict today was a direct result of your misdirected fear and ambition to win the conflict with lighter, Ami...an attempt to win the situation, nothing less nothing more.

The sad fact is that no one wins....we are still here with our voices.

If you would like me to delete my posts about your relationship to Bill, I will. It was not done out of spite, but to illuminate the truth, as I see it...and I have had much practise now, I feel confident that I do see it clearly. If you both wanted to see it, you could...it is all there---------------the truth.
Lise
Title: Re: One toadie come out'n play, one toadie go away.
Post by: Gabben on June 09, 2008, 08:42:21 PM: Re: The hijacking of a thread: Victim Mentality.... wasn't wiltay banned?

Re: One toadie come out'n play, one toadie go away.

This, lighter, is a taunt....
Title: Re: alone, please read: Exploring Victim Mentality
Post by: wiltay on June 09, 2008, 08:43:25 PM: Lise, the sword has to be true to cut. You are not hurting me because what you say is not true. Telling lies is the evil. You are NOTa liar and I never ever even implied it. But you ARE wrong. It is not a sin to be wrong. It says nothing about the quality of your perceptions or your sanity to be in error. We all have major blind spots where our pain is and that's just the way it is.

Quote from: Gabben on June 09, 2008, 08:13:30 PM
Quote from: wiltay on June 09, 2008, 07:58:07 PM
Lise, can't you see that you are justing making my point?

Quote from: Gabben on June 09, 2008, 07:46:29 PM
Quote from: wiltay on June 09, 2008, 07:20:27 PM
It seems to me that you are allowing the evil done to you to grow in your own heart.

I'm not the one having an affair with a married woman whose husband is suicidal....

Do you mean pointing out the truth...is that evil?...you know what they say...the truth is a double edged sword...it cuts like a knife.
Title: Re: One toadie come out'n play, one toadie go away.
Post by: Gabben on June 09, 2008, 08:50:41 PM: Quote from: Ami on June 09, 2008, 08:44:11 PM
Lise
I CANNOT control Bill. I agree with Bill's stand on Leah.I do not see Leah as the N saint. I see Leah as a loving person.I can't agree with you on Leah, Lise. I have made that clear, out of my own mouth, to you.However, *I* did NOT ask Bill in any form, shape or way to post.
He is very sure of himself and strong about his opinions. I could NOT force him to post ,even if I wanted to.I am telling the truth. Lise, I love him with a pure love. I am not ashamed of it, at all, even if it appears "bad"
I would like you to remove the posts and I would appreciate it. Ami

Ami,

All you have to do is look into your heart and you would know....the truth is there, but it is not convenient for your ego and pride to see it, that is why you do not chose to see it.

All the posts that made reference are deleted, or modified.
Title: Re: One toadie come out'n play, one toadie go away.
Post by: Leah on June 09, 2008, 08:52:13 PM: 1) Re: Exploring Victim Mentality

2) Re: The hijacking of a thread: Victim Mentality.... wasn't wiltay banned?

3) Re: One toadie come out'n play, one toadie go away.

Yesterday, on this thread, I was brought into question for editting my posts, however, now on this thread, the title has changed TWICE with the latter titles being ????
Title: Re: One toadie come out'n play, one toadie go away.
Post by: Izzy_*now* on June 09, 2008, 08:53:41 PM: Gabben
As someone more on the outside of your posts, than the inside, I sense much anger, paranoia, the need to present yourself as always right, and very very very sensitive to others' posts.

When I read your posts, I feel so sad for you and wish your feeling of self was far better than it is.

sincerely
Izzy :P
Title: Re: One toadie come out'n play, one toadie go away.
Post by: Ami on June 09, 2008, 08:54:37 PM: Dear Lise
I have to tell you, honestly, I have TRIED to get Bills' wit and incredible intelligence TO intervene in fights,but he would not.
I would never hurt you and he would not ,either.
We ,simply do not see the N Saint in Leah. That is our "crime" against you, Lise. Ami

Thank you for deleting the posts, Lise.
Title: Re: One toadie come out'n play, one toadie go away.
Post by: Gabben on June 09, 2008, 08:59:50 PM: Quote from: Izzy_*now* on June 09, 2008, 08:53:41 PM
Gabben
As someone more on the outside of your posts, than the inside, I sense much anger, paranoia, the need to present yourself as always right, and very very very sensitive to others' posts.

When I read your posts, I feel so sad for you and wish your feeling of self was far better than it is.

sincerely
Izzy :P

Thanks Izzy for your concern.

Your post is a projection of your own self-hatred and anger as well as you can't figure out a way to get my attention so taking a dig at me is the only way you figure that you can get me to respond to you here on the board.

Deep down you wish I would pay more attention to you....sorry for ignoring you Izzy.

Lise
Title: Re: One toadie come out'n play, one toadie go away.
Post by: Gabben on June 09, 2008, 09:03:05 PM: Quote from: Ami on June 09, 2008, 08:54:37 PM
Dear Lise
I have to tell you, honestly, I have TRIED to get Bills' wit and incredible intelligence TO intervene in fights,but he would not.
I would never hurt you and he would not ,either.
We ,simply do not see the N Saint in Leah. That is our "crime" against you, Lise. Ami

Blind....look into your hearts, not the board. Our hearts do not lie.
Title: Re: One toadie come out'n play, one toadie go away.
Post by: Ami on June 09, 2008, 09:05:53 PM: Honestly, Bill could "take" Lighter with one finger,but he would not get involved. He is his own person, Lise. I am sorry you do not see it. Ami
Title: Re: One toadie come out'n play, one toadie go away.
Post by: Gabben on June 09, 2008, 09:13:42 PM: Quote from: Ami on June 09, 2008, 09:05:53 PM
Honestly, Bill could "take" Lighter with one finger,but he would not get involved. He is his own person, Lise. I am sorry you do not see it. Ami

I see very well.

FYI -- I did not say that Leah was an Nsaint (words in my mouth)...where on this board? Please?

All N's hide...they have a mask...it is there to fool and deceive....most people are too naive to see, and chose not to, for their own selfish reasons.

Ami -- one day you will know. Enough said by me.

Lise
Title: Re: One toadie come out'n play, one toadie go away.
Post by: Certain Hope on June 09, 2008, 09:15:10 PM: Quote from: Ami on June 09, 2008, 09:05:53 PM
Honestly, Bill could "take" Lighter with one finger,but he would not get involved. He is his own person, Lise. I am sorry you do not see it. Ami

Excuse me, but the only person who "takes" anyone around here is Dr. Grossman.
Title: Re: One toadie come out'n play, one toadie go away.
Post by: Gabben on June 09, 2008, 09:23:50 PM: Quote from: Certain Hope on June 09, 2008, 09:15:10 PM
Quote from: Ami on June 09, 2008, 09:05:53 PM
Honestly, Bill could "take" Lighter with one finger,but he would not get involved. He is his own person, Lise. I am sorry you do not see it. Ami

Excuse me, but the only person who "takes" anyone around here is Dr. Grossman.

Ami -- Bill did not take lighter in your Aunt thread....as a matter of fact...Bill was bullied off the board...He says that he left, but I say that he left in a hurry....
Title: Re: One toadie come out'n play, one toadie go away.
Post by: Izzy_*now* on June 09, 2008, 09:41:07 PM: Quote
Thanks Izzy for your concern.

Your post is a projection of your own self-hatred and anger as well as you can't figure out a way to get my attention so taking a dig at me is the only way you figure that you can get me to respond to you here on the board.

Deep down you wish I would pay more attention to you....sorry for ignoring you Izzy.

Lise

Don't you wish!

What a vain thing to say!

You are not 'reading' me at all!
Izzy
Title: Re: The hijacking of a thread: Victim Mentality.... wasn't wiltay banned?
Post by: lighter on June 09, 2008, 09:48:07 PM: The following is an experiment with regard to sharing observations,

that aren't flattering,

and seeing what response it nets me on the board.

Since this is still my thread.... I hope it's regarded with some consideration.

I put forth these observations, without judgment, but as simple statements and observations.... as we've been discussing on this thread, I believe.

I'm curiouse how any responses receieved will be viewed by myself, and the board. In particular, Carolyn bc she's been thinking deeply about the subject and helping me gain clarity in the matter.

I welcome every opinion and look forward to reading them all.

Lighter

QUOTE FROM GABBEN TO AMI:

Quote from: Gabben on June 09, 2008, 08:38:14 PM
Ami,

What happened is that you saw Carolyn and +(lighter) going a bit against Leah on this thread.

So then, in your fear, that I, because of my friendship with Carolyn and my dislike of Leah's behavior on this board was going to turn to lighter and turn on you, you had Bill step in; I can only assume, but my gut tells me that you asked him to step in to look and defend Leah to support your fears.

In the past I have had conflict with Leah, you, Ami have stayed neutral as well as Bill has never said anything....until now, interesting.

This conflict today was a direct result of your misdirected fear and ambition to win the conflict with lighter, Ami...an attempt to win the situation, nothing less nothing more.
The sad fact is that no one wins....we are still here with our voices.

If you would like me to delete my posts about your relationship to Bill, I will. It was not done out of spite, but to illuminate the truth, as I see it...and I have had much practise now, I feel confident that I do see it clearly. If you both wanted to see it, you could...it is all there---------------the truth.
Lise

This is exactly the behavior I'm referring to when I observe ami manipulating other board members.

She's had a string of champions in the past.... all those relationships seem to have similar fallouts ie, Janet and that one that kept coming back over and over.... forget her name.

Little Jo opted out of the fray.... Smart girl, but not before she told Ami she refused to join in.

Why would she tell Ami she wasn't joining in? I wonder if Ami asked her to?

I'm providing this quote, from ami, that would seem to add weight to my observation that Ami manipulates other posters into confrontations with other posters:

"Dear Lise
I have to tell you, honestly, I have TRIED to get Bills' wit and incredible intelligence TO intervene in fights,but he would not.
Ami

Dr. G, I'm not attached to the outcome of this but.... it would be nice if I the NC rule I requested, with Ami and Gabben, could be honored.

Lighter

ps... it looks like changings run away like her hairs on fire :( :(

I wish I hadn't participated in the debacle, but I did.

I regret that and have to take responsibility for it.

When I'm done with this experiment....

feeling understood or not....

I choose to withdrawl (with love) from interacting with boardmembers that don't lift me up or add to my serenity.
Title: Re: One toadie come out'n play, one toadie go away.
Post by: Certain Hope on June 09, 2008, 09:50:18 PM: Lighter,

I think that this thread is about to be locked...

just in case you didn't know.

Carolyn
Title: Re: One toadie come out'n play, one toadie go away.
Post by: lighter on June 09, 2008, 09:52:43 PM: Darn... better hurry cause that's the end, when it's locked.

Lighter
Title: Re: One toadie come out'n play, one toadie go away.
Post by: lighter on June 09, 2008, 10:02:46 PM: Ahhh.. who cares about the experiment.

Those who will listen.... listen.

Those who won't.... won't.

CHANGING'S BACK! :D

Lighter
Title: Re: One toadie come out'n play, one toadie go away.
Post by: Dr. Richard Grossman on June 09, 2008, 10:09:22 PM: Hi everybody,

Per my previous post, I am locking this thread. I think everything that needs to be said has been said, and it is time to move on.

Best,

Richard

p.s. I am changing the title back to its original so that there is no confusion.