Voicelessness and Emotional Survival Message Board
Voicelessness and Emotional Survival => Voicelessness and Emotional Survival Message Board => Topic started by: OnlyMe on August 21, 2004, 02:06:18 PM
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This message board is my first group experience, and so I am treading lightly (as you can imagine, Trust is an issue!). However, as I read the messages, and leap in once in a while, I find that this message board is very healing, because, most of all, we know we are not alone in our experiences.
Often, when being raised in a home with a nparent, the child is never believed, and must spend his or her life keep up appearances, for when the parent is happy, the child is safe. Because I am an only child, I have been led to believe that I was the crazy one - and so, each day, I tried to earn my parent's love, and sometimes I did succeed by mirroring exactly what was needed, and sometimes I didn't succeed, because bits of 'me' would surface and that was not acceptable. Every morning, I had to start all over again to 'earn love'. It has only been recently that I have learned about the NPD, and finally know that I am not the crazy one. But, also, now I also have to learn what real love means. It is not Conditional, after all!
I liked that sentence that someone wrote :
The opposite of Love is not, Hate, but Indifference.
Wow.
Thank you to all of you, because it is wonderful to know that I am not alone in my experience.
We can heal and grow strong together.
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Hello OnlyMe,
Thank you for very eloquently stating why we have the board. It isn't always to whine or vent but simply to say "we believe you." "We know you are here and we know what it's like." That's the power of being in a group.
I always felt I had to solve my problems by myself. Self-reliance was a big value in my family because no one else could be bothered! But it's rather challenging to validate oneself, alone... :?
Glad to have you here. And I'm glad we have this healing place :)
Hugs, Seeker
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Hi OnlyMe, Welcome!
I have been led to believe that I was the crazy one - and so, each day, I tried to earn my parent's love, and sometimes I did succeed by mirroring exactly what was needed, and sometimes I didn't succeed, because bits of 'me' would surface and that was not acceptable. Every morning, I had to start all over again to 'earn love'.
Well said! Boy do I relate to your words above.
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Thanks so much for your insight and support.
It aided my healing. Too much of my heart
was in this post to let it remain here for posterity on the web.
The post served its purpose and now it is time to
edit it or gently take it down.
To every thing there is a season, and a time
to every purpose under the heaven: Ecclesiates 3:1
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Hello, Flower and Seeker, and all!
Well, I have just been on the phone with nmom and am exhausted.
It is so draining to have to keep pretending to care about her long descriptions of her day and how wonderful she is, and how lovely she looks, etc. I seldom am able to squeeze in a complete sentence - it is all about her, for about an hour non-stop. I understand her need for mirroring, and I try to tell her how wonderful she is, how nice she looks, and how helpful she is to the people in her day (all the while knowing that she would never do one thing for anyone without a manipulative motive). I continue to stroke her with flattery only because it keeps her off my back. But, I am almost a puddle by the time we hang up the phone. She is living on her own, is in her eighties, and so I need to keep in touch to make sure she is okay, but gee whiz, it's exhausting! At least it is only on the phone, not face to face - that is a nightmare! If I take my eyes off her for one moment while she drones on and on about herself, she is immediately offended because I am not giving her my undivided attention! All the while, the reality of her abusive mothering keeps floating around in my mind and I want to scream!
I have come a long way, but still have a way to go!
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Hi onlyme!
a hearty welcome to the board. :)
I hear what you say and feel about your nmother...and you have some healing to do as we all do. It's been a tough go for myself and indeed everyone here..but it is doable and you can do it.
Guilt and shame..I bet you had a lot of that in your upbringing.
I have a suggestion for you. If you go back on the board and pull out any if not all of one of our members' posts, you might find and identify with alot of grief this lady had/has to put up with. Like you she was an only child, and similarly her Nmother is in her eighties as well.
The name you are looking for is Rosencrantz.
Again, welcome and I look forward to sharing with you. :)
Kind regards,
Nic
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Thank you for the welcome, Nic -
Guilt, Shame, Guilt, Guilt, Shame ... oh yes! And a bit of Hope that this time things will be different! Intellectually I know that is not possible, but yet, the child in me still Hopes for a "Mom". I just need to have my mind completely over-ride my heart, and soon!
I have found Rosencrantz's messages, and have started to read them, as you suggested, and yes, it appears I can learn from her experiences! Thank you. I intend to read them all.
I am somewhat overwhelmed at the kind and supportive words from the members of this group. I had no idea that I did not have to be alone, while I worked through this. I have a wonderful H, but am trying to spare him the emotions of my rollercoaster ride as much as possible, right now.
OnlyMe
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Hi Only Me
Phew - it is incredible to read about your mother and your relationship to her.
Your situation is so intense. I am trying to think of how you can give yourself a little more wriggle room and I know from lifelong experience how difficult that is. My relationship with my mother is so similar. She is 91 and I am just reclaiming some space for myself. People here having given me such good advice which you might find in some of the earlier posts.
My mother too always gets me in the eye- lock - even when other people are around it's only me she wants to hear and affirm everything she says. One small thing I do is take off my glasses! Then at least she is out of focus! I've started to look away. Our mothers have such a distorted view of how human interaction should be. Let your mother be hurt. Until recently I have protected my mother too but I just can't anymore and it actually is good for her. We just can't keep up the fantasy for them -it's so debilitating. I can see that my mother, even at 91 is changing as I change. As I slowly reclaim myself she is adjusting and I think in many ways it's the best thing for her own growth- I do believe that I'm doing her a favour!!! Growth is painful but so necessary even and maybe particularly at the end of life.
Every moment now that I talk to or am with my mother I am conscious of taking care of myself and protecting me. This means I have to limit my phone calls so I have an exit strategy ready. After a 2- 3 hour visit I really am fit to be tied so now most of our "visiting" is done during shopping etc. I time my "visit" so that I must leave to miss rush hour traffic etc.
What ways could you change what you are doing to give yourself some breathing room?
It's your turn Only Me. These mothers eat us alive. No more! Get those boundaries shored up!! It's not selfish it's simply self- preservation and you are entitled to that and much more.
Les
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Thank You, Les -
yes, my boundaries are very shaky and need rebuilding. My dad died in June, after being very sick for several months, so I had to be there, and that is when I got sucked back into the vortex and lost my boundaries completely. Nm has bounced back, was wearing red within a week, but I am slowly working through things. Yes, my boundaries need rebuilding, and right away. I love your idea of taking off your glasses! I try to look at a space at the top of the nose, btwn the eyes - because the eyes seem to bore right through me, as though they were the eyes of the devil....cold and cruel and watching. And, I have discovered the shopping angle, as well! Unfortunately, because of the distance, I need to stay overnite when I visit, so I need all the strength I can muster before I head out for my penance!
I am reading past postings, as you suggest, and am learning so much - and it is empowering. The biggest thing is leaning that I am not alone, and now have a safe place to talk about The Truth.
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My experience (and I have tried many times with others) has shown this forum to be the ONLY place I receive understanding. I don't need anyone to defend me, run offense for me, plead my case, or even agree with me; I just need acknowledgement and understanding. I have not found it anywhere but via a cyber world on this board.
My father also died in June, but 3 years ago, and before the sun had set on the day we placed in him in the ground she had managed to create the most damage of any other single day in my life. If she loved and adored the man the way she always said she did, she should not have had the strength to pull off the stunt she did. It was a double blow to find out that the "love of her life" story was also another lie.
She also has the beady staring eyes. When I was a kid I could feel her drilling into my back, making me self-conscious of my body; always judging, criticizing, never allowing me to relax and feel safe. I would never, not for a million $ close my eyes or turn my back in her presence ever again, let alone spend the night. I think that I should never see the light of the next morning.
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Hello, Flower and Seeker, and all!
Well, I have just been on the phone with nmom and am exhausted.
It is so draining to have to keep pretending to care about her long descriptions of her day and how wonderful she is, and how lovely she looks, etc. I seldom am able to squeeze in a complete sentence - it is all about her, for about an hour non-stop. I understand her need for mirroring, and I try to tell her how wonderful she is, how nice she looks, and how helpful she is to the people in her day (all the while knowing that she would never do one thing for anyone without a manipulative motive). I continue to stroke her with flattery only because it keeps her off my back. But, I am almost a puddle by the time we hang up the phone. She is living on her own, is in her eighties, and so I need to keep in touch to make sure she is okay, but gee whiz, it's exhausting!
Can you find ways to limit the conversation to 15 min? If she doesn't like it, that's her problem. You don't owe her this amount of time and energy. I've "hurt" my mother thousands of times by setting some limits. She hasn't died yet but she has sulked. Too bad...
bunny
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I am learning from all of you, and I thank you for your support, and most of all, for believing and understanding.
Here are my baby steps, based on strength you have given me in the short few days I have been here:
I did not call nm the night before last, waiting to see if I could have a free evening, and she did not call me - so last night I went to the Library instead of spending the evening on the phone, being drained. Nm called and my H answered - she sounded 'hurt' that I wasn't available but, guess what? You are right - the sun still came up this morning!
I am taking baby steps to test and reclaim my boundaries, and they are steps in the right direction. I feel a power rising inside of me, just knowing I am not alone. This Board is a lifesaver.
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I am just realizing the extent of the horror of this abuse. I have been grappling with my situation, which finally was named thanks to a wonderful MD who saw beyond my mere words, and diagnosed 'severe childhood trauma and abuse'. Then I could begin the long, neverending healing process, however painful. I have always thought that I was soldiering on, alone, and wondered how I could help someone else who might have had a nparent, and suffered from the np abuse their entire life, as well.
Now I am hearing all your voices.
I am so grateful to have found your voices, for it is helping me more than you can ever know.
But, now I am in tears, because, it was bad enough to know I had led such a torturous life alone in that home, and when I reached out for help to never have been believed because my nm was a respected member of the community and church - but to now learn that there are so many others who also led horrific lives as children, and who are still trying to find that Unconditional Love that we have needed but never received, just breaks my heart.
I could somehow accept that, if my parent coudn't find something in me to love, then I must be comepletely unloveable - why would my parent lie?! ...and so I have accepted that as fact. I always accepted that I must be a terrible waste of skin, even though I have a Mensa IQ and have been successful at everything I try. And even though I have a wonderful H, I still wonder what he sees in me to love.
But, the pain of learning that there are so many others like me is hitting me like a ton of bricks at the moment, and I am crying for all of us.
It is so wrong.
We need our voices.
I am so thankful to have found you.
Thank you, Dr. G. for giving us a safe place to find ourselves and our voices so we can learn to Stand.
I can't stop crying for us all - will be back later when I collect myself.
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Hi OnlyMe,
Big long hugs to you. Feel your feelings, it sounds like it's been a long time coming.
In time, you will be able to see for yourself what is lovable in you. Once you discover that, you will be able to count on it no matter what. Only you can be "OnlyMe". :wink:
Peace, Seeker
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I could somehow accept that, if my parent coudn't find something in me to love, then I must be comepletely unloveable - why would my parent lie?! ...and so I have accepted that as fact. I always accepted that I must be a terrible waste of skin, even though I have a Mensa IQ and have been successful at everything I try. And even though I have a wonderful H, I still wonder what he sees in me to love.
A pathologically N parent can't love anyone. Unfortunately this includes their children. They are not capable of the constellation of attitudes and behaviors that are loving. Their internal worlds are filled with unprocessed rage, hate, terror, fear, anger, aggression. This gets projected onto whoever will quickly ingest their projections (i.e., children). The child's loveability is high, but the parents' capacity to behave caringly and lovingly is extremely low.
bunny
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Only Me,
We love you. You are so very, very special. I'm sorry they hurt you so bad. It's a real shame -- shame, shame, shame. But you are so much better than they are, so kind, smart, sweet and kind. We like you a lot :D
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Hi Onlyme,
I remember how astounded I was to find this board! In the short time I have been here I've grown so much stronger. One thing I did was to imagine "the board" being with me when I saw or talked to my mother. A little odd I admit but it worked! May the board be with you Onlyme. I am happy to hear that you are taking some baby steps.
Reading about you going to the library and not being around for the phone call -YES! It is a small step but those first steps can feel huge.
I bought a few books this summer on children of N's. One book was -"Emotional Incest" - Patricia Love I think. She talked a bit about the extra burden the only child carries with an N parent.
Hope to hear more about those baby steps. It reminds me of the children's game "Mother may I?" "Take 2 baby steps." etc. So maybe it's time for a new game! "Mother I'm taking!"....as many giant steps as I need too!
Les
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I have to go to spend three days of penance ( ! ) by visiting nm to help her with the adjustment to living on her own alone, take her shopping for fall clothes, etc etc etc. She fancies herself to be an 85yr old fashion plate, so it is quite the experience. A Supreme N.
Thank you for the idea Les : I'll take the power of The Board with me!
I have been building up my strength by reading the experiences of everyone, and so many I could have written myself. I waste so many days before going to visit nm, preparing my clothes ( I never seem to wear the right thing), packing tons of stuff I never wear, but take just in case - and I don't sleep very well in advance, preparing myself for all the jabs at who I am. Most of all, I find it hard to spend that much time with someone who does not 'see' me at all - it is all about her, and I could have three heads, and she would only talk about how it reflects badly on her image... I never seem to even be able to say a complete sentence. By the time I get in the car to come home, I am drained, and want to scream "Can anyone See Me?!! Can anyone Hear Me?! Or should I just kill myself now, because what difference would it make?!!" So for the 4hour drive home, I try to talk to myself, try to remember that I have a dear H who loves and needs and values me. And, just to cover all the bases, I listen to Gospel music while I'm driving, because a small voice in me thinks that she is Evil, the Devil evil. I drag myself home. It takes days and days of licking my wounds before I get my strength back again. I pull into myself and build myself back up.
Why go through all of this, you ask? and rightly so?
Because she has no other living relative who can do it. She has no siblings, nor do I, and I guess I am duty-bound.
And so it goes. The roller-coaster ride. - as long as she is on this earth.
But, this time will be different (don't we always hope??!)
This time, I am taking The Board's support with me - and I will picture all of you standing beside and behind me - and I will stand with more strength than ever before. It is so energizing to know that there are others like me, who have fought for a voice, who have fought just to be seen, and who understand and believe that what I have experienced, and am experiencing, is The Truth.
Whew. That alone gives me Strength - and I thank you all.
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Keep your chin up, "Only Me"-
You certainly have my support. I know exactly what you're going through. My Nmother is 88 years old and every time I go to see her at the nursing home I can hardly wait to get out of there. I am the only one she has too, so I have to be her support. She is totally together mentally, so she is still quite capable of pushing my buttons, and, boy, does she push. (buttons she created in the first place, so she knows exactly where they are.) I am so torn, knowing that she does have aging issues which are quite frightening to her, and I want to always be able to address that, but sometimes it is very hard to see through all the manipulations and control attempts to the actual needs she does have at that stage of her life. God knows, we all will go through that in our lives when we are old and need for others to be aware of the problems we will face, and I hope we will have kind people around us . It is so hard to to step back and be detached enough to help out with her actual needs without being sucked back in to that crazy behavior pattern at the same time. It is very draining, at the very least. One has to be on guard at all times. I wish you the best- please know you have our support. Try, as I do, to look at your mom as if she is just another crazy old lady who belongs to someone else's family, so you can see she really doesn't have any power anymore- she is just a fussing, feeble old thing who is a pain in the ass to everyone, not just to you. Good luck.
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Thanks, tigerlily and Moonflower !
I'll hang on to your thoughts as I head out for my few days with nm.
I think I'll take some knitting with me, so I can pretend I need to watch each stitch, and not have to look at those beady eyes as much. Those knitted dishcloths require constant attention!
And, you're right, she is just a crazy little old lady who just happened to give birth to me (and keeps reminding me that she really wanted a boy instead, grrrrrr).
I'll take this group with me in spirit.
I am so thankful that I am no longer alone,
and I now know you'll all be here when I get back home. Whew.
:-)
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Here's an update!
For the first time in my life, I have spent time with nM and not returned completely suicidal.
I took the strength and wisdom that you have given me, and it kept me strong. The biggest thing I learned is that a Narcissist FEEDS off our emotions, whether Negative or Positive. With that knowledge in the back of my mind, this time was different : this time I did not allow her the satisfaction of seeing that she was killing me with her verbal abuse, and her total indifference. This time, I did not let her see any of my frustrations, so she could not Feed On Me! It worked amazingly well.
Of course, I am drained by having to be on my toes for the entire three days, because, as we all know only too well, we can never be competely prepared for the horrific things that they will do. We are never safe in the company of a N, so we must stay in Fight or Flight Mode - so I am very tired, today. But, my baby steps towards firming up some personal boundaries now include not giving her the satisfaction of seeing my pain. My NM can Feed Somewhere Else!
You have all helped so much, that I now feel safe enough to formally join the group. Couldn't have survived the past three days without you all.
Our voices are strong, after all.
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Hi Only Me,
you wrote:
My NM can Feed Somewhere Else!
Good for you!! You can be very proud of yourself. Just keep working on accepting your NM for what she is and how she'll never change and how what she says really isn't about you - it's about her. Then you can slowly not be affected so much by her baloney. In fact maybe you should visualize her as a big Ocsar Mayer wiener (or whiner as they usually are).
lol
N
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Good job OnlyMe.
You may be only taking baby steps, but it a great beginning. Soon you will be taking strides. Try to keep your face impassive when Nmom tries to push your buttons, and redirect the conversation. If she refuses, then tell her you forgot something, or have to make a phone call, then walk out of the room until you regain some strength.
I know my Nmom would say something hurtful and eye me intently gauging my reaction. These Nparents seem to do that. We react, and they receive their perverse pleasure. Try to remember, your mom is a little old lady, albeit an evil Nar. Old and frail, she has lost her real power to hurt you, like she did when you were a child. Back then you could not walk away from her, you could not speak back. At least, not without extreme consequences. Now you have a voice.
Next time you go see your Nmom, remember that you now have the power. By that time, I want you to believe it. You have the power to just walk away, or at least make her believe that, if she can't treat you with more respect.
My Nmom used to belittle me about my weight. Yeah, I was a whole 20 lbs overweight at that time. But, she loved making little snide comments. I dunno what got into me one day, but I had just had enough. I had stopped by to pick up my daughter on the way home from work. I was in uniform, (nars don't like authority) when I made full eye contact. I firmly told her if she mentioned my weight again, I would never come back to her house again. She didn't like that one bit, but she never brought up my weight again. She still got at me in a round about way, losing weight until she was a skeleton, and bragging how thin she was. But, that was better than her "innocently" asking if my pants were getting too tight. :evil:
When an Nmom gets old and frail, and especially when she has no spouse, the power shifts to the now adult child. She needs you now, though she would never admit it. Do you need her? No, in fact you would be worlds better if you could stay completely away form her negative influences. Deep down I think our Nmoms know they have lost their power, but of course, none will admit to it. So they try to exert themselves verbally, keeping us in reign.
You might want to start cutting your visits to Nmom shorter. Three days in hell is way too long. Let her bitch if she doesn't like it. It is not like she can do anything about it. You now have the power. If she says something very hurtful, tell her to stop or you won't coming back. Try to back that up if you can. It might take a couple of little separations to make her see you are serious. Remember, she is a willful little child now.
Be wise to Nmom's manipulations, and don't reward her antics. Do not feel guilty if you don't want to talk to her on the phone. Do not feel guilty if you don't visit as often, or for as long. These Nmom's want you to feel guilty, that is how they control you. I think everyone on this board knows that. Don't buy into those guilt trips anymore.
You did good OnlyMe, and next time you will do even better. Knowlege is power. You know what your Nmom is now, and what her agenda is. You are stronger for it. Believe that, and be well.
Moonflower
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Hooray Onlyme!! That is such great news and it is so encouraging for people to read. Yes!! It can be done. We can detach. We can reclaim ourselves and clamp off the blood supply.
I see my mother once a week to help her with shopping etc. I used to actually scream all the way home from her place afterwards (must have really terrified the other drivers on the road -talk about road rage) Now I don't scream. I don't need to (well, ok, sometimes I do) I am in the
" driver's" seat most of the time I'm with my mother now - I deal with the situations calmly and firmly and don't take the bait.
Today she was going on and on about her friend's son who just can't do enough for his poor dear mother - he is a saint, flies in from Australia twice a week - (impossible, of course, but my mother will use anything to drive home her point), attends to his mother's every need and is just desperate about her well being etc etc. I hear this story and other similar ones all the time. Today I called her on it. She was saying that maybe she should go in a home so she wouldn't be a bother to me ( with just the right mix of poor me and bad neglectful you) I told her that the problem was not the shopping, doctors' appts. etc. but the constant guilt trips like the above that she lays on me. I think she is chewing on that one! I said it like I knew exactly what I was talking about with no self-doubt or hesitation. I said it like a grounded healthy person and by god it worked!
I liked your comments about power and control Moonflower. Yes - don't reward their antics. Don't buy into the the guilt trips. It can be done!!
Les
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The guilt trips are never-ending, it seems.
We are expected to be perfect, so that we reflect back perfection to them, but of course, it is impossible to be perfect because 1) we're human, after all and 2) if we were perfect, then they wouldn't be The Best! A no-win situation.
But there is a little voice inside me that still wants my nM's love and approval, Drat! And, yes, I always hear the criticism in what is said, or worse, what is not said! And isn't our appearance important? Apparently I wear my clothes way too baggy. And the reason I do, I now realize, is so that nM's beady little eyes can't see every inch of me. She is a conservative, classic style person whereas I was a flower child way back when - our styles have never been the same, much to her disdain. When I arrive to see her, I have always been slowly scanned from head to toe, literally, and there is always something terribly wrong with my appearance, apparently. So, since puberty, which was ages ago, I have worn loose clothes, so that the beady little eyes can't see everything. Safer that way. Now, when I take her shopping, because she is an 85yr old clothes horse, she manages to circle the sales ladies around me, and gets them to support her critism that my skirts are way too long, and my tops are way too baggy - and that I should be buying something form-fitting, and of course they'd be crazy to miss a sale, so they all tell me that my attire is entirely inappropriate for my figure, and so nM has tons of support proving to me that I am not perfect. Last month, I let her buy me a skirt that she liked, and I wore it the past weekend, with a long top over it, and she just had to buy me the Right Jacket (which is long, whew) to match! Now, hahaha, I have a complete outfit - gee, that worked out okay, after all.
But, then, it seems that I have two wrinkles on my upper lip that are driving her crazy. She is trying to put gobs of cream on them! My dear H said he hadn't even noticed them, nor had I! It's always something, isn't it?
I just can't imagine what it would be like to have a mother who was supportive and kind. Instead, I am stuck with a lying, cruel, back-stabbing two-faced manipulator!
It helps to know I am not alone!
and getting stronger, thanks to this group!!
Whew.
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Well OnlyMe - there are striking similarities here! One of my mother's favorite remarks used to be, "Why do you have to dress like a refugee!" Then many years later I actually worked with refugees and still do, so I was able to tell my mother that I don't dress like a refugee - they dress far better than I do! I also understand the "baggy" clothes thing. For me, among other things, my clothes are a little extra protection from her. I don't know if you meant it quite that way and I only recently realized that I sometimes put on an extra layer when I'm going to see her. I'm 54 (she's 91) and I have "puppet face" -"What's that! she said, with some disgust, poking at the slack skin at the corners of my mouth. As a young woman she was a "pocket venus." Well, I didn't even come close much to her ever lasting chagrin. Being told that I look like I've been run over with a steamroller may not have enhanced my self-image much either!
So how to defuse these classically dressed mothers! Here is something I clipped from the newspaper awhile ago.
"Infinite toil would not enable you to sweep away a mist: but by ascending a little (picture of head poking through the clouds/mist) you may often look over it altogether. So it is with our moral improvement; (substitute "mother" here) we wrestle fiercely with a viscious habit (______!) which would have no hold on us if we ascended into a higher atmosphere."
Sir Arthur Helps (1813-75) I just love the peaceful look on the man in the drawing. Somehow this image works for me. Just don't need to engage. My husband teases my mother alot and treats everything with a very light touch. I'm trying to the same thing.
Well as you say OnlyMe, you are not alone. I'm so glad the board is helping you. Thank you to Dr. Grossman for providing such a healing place.
Les
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Hi Les,
I love that quotation and the image you painted. I'll remember it.
Gee, I am 54 and my old doll is 85! And, yes, I love baggy clothes in which to hide, and it has always been for protection from her, as well. She did not respect any of my personal boundaries, and that included my body, and so ever since I was old enough to be able to choose my own clothes, I wore big tops. Often I'd wear Dad's sweaters, old shirts, anything that covered me to the bottom of my derriere. When nM wouldn't buy big sweaters for me, I would save my allowance and buy wool and knit huge sweaters to wear - and I always tried to act as though I was 'creative' and 'arty' and luckily was able to be a 'hippie' type - and even when I was at University, we were all wearing all sorts of creative, big, loose things. I am only now realizing that I have kept my body hidden all these years for a reason. I was subjected to physical as well as emotional abuse, by her . As an only child, I didn't know that others weren't experiencing the same thing - it has only been in recent years that I have learned the extent of my violation - and the damages, both physical as well as emotional, as a result. Therefore, Yes, my baggy clothes are definitely my protection. It feels safe, and therefore comfortable. I try to choose artsy or ethnic type things, so people just assume I want to have my own style, which I guess is true. I love art, wear a lot of black, and so it seems to make sense, in the big picture. And back to nm - I'll be damned if she is going to get close to me, or to see my shape ever again. She can roll her eyes all she wants, for I will never look like her, no matter what! Yes, I wear layers of clothes when I visit her, even if it is a hot hot day - I'd rather be hot than bare and exposed.
Gee, I have said a lot more than I intended. I hope this is still a safe place, for part of me still tries to protect her image - and yes, that shows she still has power over me, and I still have a ways to go.
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Hi OnlyMe,
I believe this is a safe place - despite the odd outburst here and there that can rattle you for awhile (well rattled me anyway). I spoke about the physical/sexual abuse with my mother here and felt very supported. I didn't say a great deal but it was a relief to just say it, call it what it was. It helped me get control of the situation with her which amazingly still needs careful monitoring. (these old bags, for god sake!) If you wanted to look at some old posts - late May or June I think, they tell a bit of my story.
I've also found a board that deals specifically with these issues and ordered some books that have helped as well. It is a murky swamp for sure but I have found that the more honest I am with myself, the more clarity I face the situation with, the better it gets. My behaviour with her has changed. I am very clear about my physical space now - in how I allow her to touch me or not and she has gotten the message without any discussion required. However I also feel armed with words now should they be needed -the words I wish I'd been able to speak 40-50 years ago.
If you would like to speak more specifically about any of this OnlyMe I'd be happy to listen, tell you what I've learned and be of whatever support I can be.
Les
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Thanks, Les -
I'll look at your past postings, and appreciate your help, more than you know. It is hard to talk about some things, and yet, I want to be so strong that Her arrows cannot dent my armour any more.
I am thinking of starting a new thread tonight. Unfortunately, I am having a major delayed reaction to my visit with her - and wanted to pick a few brains about it.
More later, okay?
Thanks again for your support.
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Hi Les,
I read some of your past posts, and you have had a tough time with your mother. Poor you. I cannot imagine the physical/sexual abuse that you endured with her. What a violation of your personal boundaries. What the h*ll is the matter with these women?
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My abuse was in the form of a mother who was hypervigilant of every single thing that went into my mouth, practically counted my peas, and then was equally hypervigilant of everything that came out the other end.
I'd call this pathological narcissism. There may also be paranoia, obsessive-compulsiveness, and pockets of psychosis in her psyche. Hypervigilance shows persecutory feelings. And treating your body like an extension of hers is narcissistic. I'm sorry this happened to you; it sounds like a nightmare.
bunny
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This post may appear twice, since I just blew away the first version. Rats! Can I remember any of it? Hmmm
How awful those experiences must have been for you OnlyMe and particularly humiliating as a teenager I would think. Such a complete invasion. Such self destroying work for you to have to keep the boundaries down, non-existant really, during your growing up years.
I am so pleased that you are letting your husband get the phone more often. You sooooo need to carve out more emotional and psychological space from her. You mentioned that you had cancer. I imagine you have done a lot of reading about the connection between stress (read mother) and the health of our bodies. I just want to encourage you to keep your awareness of your body, your emotions as felt through your body, right up front, in first place, since they have been in last place for so long. Every day, every day, we should honour ourselves. It's your turn OnlyMe.
It feels like land reclamation - reclaiming ourselves from the swamp of the unknowing self. - little by little uncovering ourselves, pushing the heavy water soaked clay away, allowing air to circulate, catching glimpses of the rock- bed, our core. I think this excavating, this recovering of oneself will provide the strength needed to fight off self-destructiive feelings.
I mentioned as well that I am no longer a nodding mute with my mother. I take the opportunity to say: " I don't feel that way; I've never felt that way" (and maybe) there hasn't been any room to tell you that." " I like THAT person and don't want to participate in denegrating them." Short bursts of me. It may bounce right off. But expressing who you are, I am realizing is vital to healthy survival. No different than telling someone that you are allergic to peanut butter and it could kill you. We aren't so polite that we eat the peanut butter but with our Nmother's we eat the same toxic waste.
I imagine you know the book "Bringing Spirituality into Your Healing Journey -Dr. Alastair Cunningham from Princess Margaret hospital in Toronto. To anyone else reading this post this is a book to help cancer patients but really the exercises in it help people get past despair through relaxation, meditation and are so valuable for everyone.
Must hop on a street car and head out into the working world. A hint of fall in the air -so bittersweet...eh?
Les
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Thanks, Bunny for your comments -
I think you are right. She definitely is a sick puppy. If I screamed and cried when she dragged me into the bathroom, she'd give me some of her tranqulizers, tablespoons of brandy, anything to make me docile. She would break open her librium capsule, sprinkle some of the powder into my little hand and make me lick it off. You see, if I protested too much, it was clear in her sick eyes that I was misbehaving and needed to be controlled by her. Control. Control. Control. Dad just ignored it all. As I write this, I can't believe I still care what happens to her. Wish I didn't have that damn moral obligation to a mother, just because it is the right thing to do.
And Thank you, Les.
I love your image of rising out of the swamp, pushing away the clay to reveal our strong core. I love rocks, so think I'll look for a special one to remind me of your image.
I have Dr Cunningham's "the Healing Journey" so I'll treat myself to a trip to Chapters and look for the one you suggest. He has been an inspiration for me. And I'm going to look for the latest book by Alice Miller. I read somewhere that it addresses the N issue, as well, so will let you know what I learn.
And a Huge "Thank you" Dr. G.
for providing this safe place for us to talk about our experiences, and to learn from one another. I have not yet met or heard of anyone who has experienced the sort of abuse that I unfortunately did.
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onlyme,
Your mother sounds severely mentally ill. Your father also has some serious problems. I am just sad that no other adult noticed what was happening to you. It is heartbreaking.
We are hardwired to be attached to our parents even if we hate them. Attachment isn't the same as love. It's a bond that may be quite irrational and painful. That's how humans are wired -- ironically -- for survival purposes. Hopefully your mother will kick the bucket sooner rather than later.
bunny
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Oh OnlyMe -the abuse you suffered is so horrific. I feel for you so much. Did you mention that you are seeing a counsellor? I hope you are.
Recently my 2 grown daughters were at their grandma's to cook her dinner. She cut her leg and so they took her into the bathroom to help bandage her up. She started talking to them about her former lovers and other very personal body matters. It seems like the bathroom triggered all these sexual associations...even with her grandaughters - What did I miss I wonder in their relationships with her.
I mention this because the more I name what happened to me and feel firmer in my resolve to take back my life, the better I get. Part of that has included some reading on the subject of "covert incest." Jarring words but for me a fit. Perhaps you have already considered your experience from this angle or perhaps it doesn't fit for you. I wish I could be more delicate with my words here.
Taking care of these "mothers" puts us in such a difficult situation. We feel that we are IT and charged with the heavy duty of "loving" and "adoring" the very people that abused us. This is the horns of the dilema for me. I feel in a way that somehow I MISLEAD my mother all these years. She has come to expect devotion. So how do you pull away? I know she feels like a jilted lover. Despite all this I want to say that the only POSSIBLE direction to travel is towards health. It must be. We cannot sacrifice our lives, our health - mental and physical.
Can you get away for awhile Only Me. Maybe a retreat where you can experience yourself in relaxed, undemanding surroundings?
Les
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Thank you, Bunny - I appreciate your comments - you're right about both my parents, and sometimes I need to hear it summed up like that!
And Thank you, Les. I had a therapist a few years ago when all this NMabuse surfaced and needed to be acknowledged. It was rough for a year or so. I have never stopped reading about the subject, and I have been reading self-help books all my life (thinking that there must be something terribly wrong with me, and always looking for answers - not realizing that it was my nM's messages that were the lies, and she was the sick one, in fact).
And I wouldn't have had this huge back-slide if dad hadn't been so sick the past few months. I had a few good boundaries built up, but most of them came crashing down because of circumstances. I reverted to 'caring' about them, and became vulnerable, inadvertantly. Then Dad died, and she acted helpless, etc etc etc.... I fell back into her Web. Dad was the strong silent type, never acknowledged a problem. He'd just lose his temper from time to time.
Since discovering this group, I have made huge strides back to strength again. And I have been away from our home so much in the past few months, that I have taken this week as a 'break' at home - puttering around, getting grounded, and it feels good to put my roots down, again. This is my mini-retreat, safe here at home - one week : Tues to Tues is my plan! So far, so good! And you helped so much by reminding me how important it is to take care of my health. I kept repeating that sentence to myself whenever I felt guilty. I can't let my immune system get too run down, bc I'll be damned if that Old Bat is going to make me sick, ever again! Yes, our health is of utmost importance. We have put the needs of our nM first for much too long. I never learned how to do otherwise, really, but am trying to learn that now. I learned to never be prettier, smarter, thinner, etc etc than her.... so it is foreign to me to put myself first. My H is a huge support, thank goodness - and patient! Whew!!!
About your daughters - just keep an eye on them. You know what to look for, so keep your radar tuned for anything that might be a clue that your nm has been inappropriate with them. Hopefully, and what a terrible thing to say, but hopefully you were her only victim.
And yes, I'll look into covert incest. My therapist said my experience was like being raped over and over and over again.
It breaks my heart to learn of other people who have suffered at the hands of their nmothers. Somehow I could accept that I must have deserved it, but when I learn of the abuse that has gone on behind closed doors, it breaks my heart.
Didn't mean to go on like this. Yes, our dilemma is that we must see the evil one through to the end of her days, knowing the truth of our relationships, but tending to their needs, nonetheless. I now think of the show 'Survivor'. I intend to be the last one standing, no matter what I have to do! There will be good days and bad days, but we'll make it!!!
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I'm glad that home feels like a safe place OnlyMe. - just those pesky phone calls to deal with I guess! Hopefully your time away from home means time away from constant contact with the black widow.
It sounds like you are really trying to take care of yourself. You are always ALWAYS worth it. If you ever doubt this, please, speak up here and many people will remind you of your worth.
I sometimes think of part of Nelson Mandela's ( I think) inaugural speech:
"We ask ourselves, "Who am I to be brilliant, gorgeous, talented, fabulous?
Actually who are you NOT to be? You are a child of God. Your playing small doesn't serve the world. There's nothing enlightened about shrinking so that other people won't feel insecure around you. We were born to make manifest the glory of God that is within us. It's not just in some of us. It's in everyone, and, as we let our light shine, we unconsciously give other people permission to do the same. As we are liberated from our own fear, our presence automatically liberates others."
Last week I told my mother that I went sailing and I had a very good time! I am allowed a little fun and pleasure in my life and it is normal and healthy to express it. ( well, not normal for me but...) Of course her jealousy was evident - but I can't take care of all that now. No more pandering to sick black widow spiders! btw I'm not suggesting that you are in anyway "shrinking" in your life, but I know that sticky web has an effect. Well, time is short! I'm break'n out!!!
Les
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I want to thank all of you brave, wonderful people for opening up and sharing your experiences. I just found out about N. Last night I couldn't sleep, so I went on line to find out what it was all about. After amny dead ends I wound up here. I couldn't write last night because I was just too emotional. I'm finding it hard to see the keys yet today.
I recently had another fight with my Nmom. I was able to stay calm and say what I needed to say. I don't need to tell you, she didn't hear a word. After a week and no word from me, the boxes started. First she called and left messages that they would be to drop off some things. I e-mailed and said we wouldn't be home. And then made sure we wouldn't be. Oh yeah, and changed my locks. The box sat on my step for two days. When we got home they were wet. Two days later, there was one on the porch, with her pearls under all kinds of junk.
I started seeing a counselor for back up and she told me about N. My Dad start sending me e-mails asking me to forgive him. True to course, if I don't take responsibility Dad will. I thanked him, but stated that he wasn't on the phone that night and the problem was about Mom's and Mine relationship. Two days later he shows up at my door. Again he knows this is his fault. I tried to explain, but his mission was to smooth this over. So, Mom and I are on new ground. I usually cave by now and apologize for everything.
This started because of my daughter, She spent an extended vacation with them and came back very upset and not wanting to go back. It is amazing what we will do for our kids but would never do for ourselves.
I'm not alone, I'm not crazy. And there are people who understand me.
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Welcome!
You are not alone,
and you are not crazy - it just feels like that, sometimes!
I found this group a couple of weeks ago, and am so thankful to be here. It is very healing to be able to tell The Truth, here, and to be believed. And there is a very special understanding that comes from others who have experienced the pain of having no voice, and the pain of being invisible - it is a bond that makes this a special group of souls with voices, after all.
We're all in this together, and we will all be stronger because of it.
Now you know you are not alone.
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Dear Les,
... you always seem to know exactly the right things to say, oh wise one!
And I love that black widow spider image!
That's perfect!
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What is it about Nmothers and their childrens bathroom habits? My incredibly sociopathic/pathologically narcissistic mother wiped my little brothers bottom until he was 8 yrs old (or older). I developed a gastrointestinal disturbances before the age of 1 yrs old - and later devloped Crohn's disease in elementary school.
My mother used to forcefeed my brother - smashing him in the face when he wouldn't eat - leaving him to sit there for hours - falling alseep with his face in his food. I would be surprised if my Nmother didn't do this to me as well.
Why do these women feel the desire to get THAT involved with their children's of fecal elimination?
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Hi Jenocidal,
I don't know about the back end, but your story about food reminded me of when psycho NSIL crammed birthday cake into my one-year-old's mouth because she was "supposed" to eat the cake. :roll: You know, the old photo album is more important than reality. shheeeeesh.
Seeker
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Les,
I want to let you know that your quote from N Mandela was soooo very helpful to me this weekend. It said " as we let our light shine ..." and for some reason, all weekend I have been humming that tune "this little light of mine, I'm going to let it shine!" :-)
I hope you had a chance to be good to yourself this weekend! You brought light into my weekend, and I thank you for it!
~OnlyMe
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My schizophrenic mother had the pediatrician tranquilize me at age two so she could "cope" with me.
Lizbeth
Thanks, Bunny for your comments -
I think you are right. She definitely is a sick puppy. If I screamed and cried when she dragged me into the bathroom, she'd give me some of her tranqulizers, tablespoons of brandy, anything to make me docile. She would break open her librium capsule, sprinkle some of the powder into my little hand and make me lick it off. You see, if I protested too much, it was clear in her sick eyes that I was misbehaving and needed to be controlled by her. Control. Control. Control. Dad just ignored it all. As I write this, I can't believe I still care what happens to her. Wish I didn't have that damn moral obligation to a mother, just because it is the right thing to do.
And Thank you, Les.
I love your image of rising out of the swamp, pushing away the clay to reveal our strong core. I love rocks, so think I'll look for a special one to remind me of your image.
I have Dr Cunningham's "the Healing Journey" so I'll treat myself to a trip to Chapters and look for the one you suggest. He has been an inspiration for me. And I'm going to look for the latest book by Alice Miller. I read somewhere that it addresses the N issue, as well, so will let you know what I learn.
And a Huge "Thank you" Dr. G.
for providing this safe place for us to talk about our experiences, and to learn from one another. I have not yet met or heard of anyone who has experienced the sort of abuse that I unfortunately did. A few years ago, my GP and ob/gyn sent me for therapy, for 'severe childhood trauma and abuse'. Things came to light when I was unable to carry three babies to full term, and it appears that the constant internal prodding for almost twenty years might have done some damage that resulted in my not being able to bear a child. Then when I had chemo, it ended any further hope. Unfortunately, about a year ago, we moved away from all my support system, including my pastor, and this new town is too small for me to feel confident in any anonymity, and for some reason, I feel I still must keep this secret, for fear of hurting my mother's image (she is 85 and I am hoping to see her through to the end of her days). Therefore, I am struggling to stay strong, day by day. My H is my rock. This board is a huge help, and I thank you for it...we both thank you for it.
I can hardly believe I am opening up like this, but I think it is healing to be able to tell The Truth. I hope it is safe. I have difficulty Trusting, as you can imagine.
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My schophrenic mother was the cause of my eating problems and bulemia due to her forcing me from I think around age 2 until at least 5 to sit up until all hours of the night if I wouldn't clean my plate. I remember sitting there until at least 2 am.
What is it about Nmothers and their childrens bathroom habits? My incredibly sociopathic/pathologically narcissistic mother wiped my little brothers bottom until he was 8 yrs old (or older). I developed a gastrointestinal disturbances before the age of 1 yrs old - and later devloped Crohn's disease in elementary school.
My mother used to forcefeed my brother - smashing him in the face when he wouldn't eat - leaving him to sit there for hours - falling alseep with his face in his food. I would be surprised if my Nmother didn't do this to me as well.
Why do these women feel the desire to get THAT involved with their children's of fecal elimination?
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For Control.
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Thanks OnlyMe.
I went back to teaching today and I always stop at the Self Doubt Depot and load up - great big fat helpings. I think technically it's called, "anticipatory anxiety" but I kill half of the boreal forest zeroxing everything in sight so that I'm super prepared. Anyway, I said to myself ...self, your entire self-worth is not tied up with how good a teacher you are. You are a good decent person and OnlyMe even said that you were helpful so just let that be enough!!
So OnlyMe you helped me too.
Les
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Hey Les,
Have you calmed down a bit since getting back into the swim of teaching again? I'm not posting or actually reading much these days but I still think of you and hope you're doing well.
MM
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Boy, I just read those posts and am about to cry myself. Beady eyes? My mom's face has the biggest frown. Her countenance when she is with me is just so downtrodden. Maybe because she is REALLY trying to show her disapproval since I have my new found boundaries. Only problem is I hammer her with boundaries. It is the only way I know how to set them. I have no finesse. I just hatchet her. I won't let her close and I guess that hurts her. Yes, it hurts her that I won't let her manipulate me anymore........................but whenever possible, she'll give me the one, two punch and I am usually taken off guard.
What to do? I have also found a new strength in this forum and have run here everyday since I signed up about a week or so ago. Whining? Maybe a little. I guess I am just so grateful to have a sympathetic ear after all these years. My mother, too is a well respected and influential person in our town so I cannot betray her - easily. Only the people who work for us have figured her out since they are with her day-in and day-out. They have seen me leave her office balling my eyes out and just shake their heads. I know they feel sorry for me.
Keep talking. Keep leaning. Thank you all for supporting all of us. We need each other. If we can give each other some baby steps which we can accomplish, eventually we can grow by leaps and bounds. Until then, peace to you all.
Kelly
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Hi MM - I was hoping for a chance to catch up with you. I 've been wondering how you are and how your summer vacation went.
I'm actually pretty good. It's amazing. Sometimes I get this picture of bewildered tortured souls stumbling around in the universe, then a "worm hole" opens up and kurplunk, they plop down here... and begin to make sense of their lives. I'm a different person than the meek space traveller that crash landed here 4 months ago. I'm as involved if not more involved in caring for my mother but I can do it now from a position of understanding and strength. I take care of myself, always, when I'm with her and so I have the emotional strength to truly be compassionate at times with this old needy woman. ( this could all blow up tomorrow of course)
There was a program on tv last week called, "Rage against the darkness" -about nursing homes. (maybe you saw it Only Me) One of the women featured in the program was"Gert" -103 years old! She is full of spit and vinegar wit and charm. The staff think she is marvellous and in many ways she is. But her 73 year old daughter has had quite enough! Old Gert is a terror, a bully and no doubt an N. Yikes! The program was called "Gert's secret." I think the "secret" to her long life was total self-absorption. Apparently she lived with her daughter for 37 years and according to her grandson didn't lift a finger and just barked orders at her daughter. Anywhoooo, there may be a looonnng road ahead with my mother and I need to live my life NOW. At this point, I feel like I've found the right mixture of self-care and mother care. Four months ago I felt like I was insane.
an aside to Kelly - how's it going? Is there anyway you can stay in the business but not work so closely with your mother. What a conundrum for you. Perhaps the business needs to expand to a second office across town!!
Good to hear from you MM. Would love to hear what's going on.
Les
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I've been lying low lately, trying to recharge my batteries for my next three day trip to my Nm. Good to hear your voice, Les - I think of you often, because we are travelling a similar path. Yes, I caught one or two glimpses of that TV special, but it was a bit too close to home, so I couldn't watch. Maybe I'll catch it when they replay it on Newsworld. Just didn't have the strength, emotional or physical. Even though I feel I have given every drop of strength that I have to my nM, I still feel major guilt just seeing those 'elder-abuse' ads on TV - thinking I should be doing more for her. Truth is that she is doing much better than I, in her N ways - she is Queen of Everything!
Horrors!! at hearing of an old girl living to 103 with her daughter 73 yrs old! Horrors of horrors!!! :shock: :shock: Where to get the strength for this emotional marathon?!!!(':?:')
I'm getting ready for a three-day trip to my NM this weekend - old cousins visiting, so I have to help, etc - and so I am trying to prepare myself. I can't believe that I have to start planning about a week in advance - what to wear, should I have my hair cut, what should I take, how should I act, how will I dodge the arrows, where will I get the strength to keep smiling while breaking inside, etc etc etc. Plus these cousins are snowed by her phony ways, and I am the voiceless one. It is a pathetic statement, I know, to have to go through all this physical, emotional and spiritual preparation just to visit one's mother. And I always come home completely drained, for she always seems to hit me with something completely unexpected (as you said, it could all blow up at any moment)....see my dread already?! It is the same old dance, every time, and I hate it.....but, I am the only one she has. My dear H keeps having excuses to stay away, except for the major holidays, like Thanksgiving. And I resent the time that my nM is taking away from my home-life, for I am sick in anticipation of visiting, I am drained while visiting, and then I am sick again when I get home - so my dear H basically loses me for at least a week every time. I swear that my nM has some sort of evil power, for the mere presence of her weakens me, and I really really really resent that power of hers. I'm working on it, but unfortunately, some times I am stronger than others. I really meant it when I said in another post that I sometimes feel that the N is Evil.
Well, nevertheless, I guess I'm trying to keep up appearances, trying to do the right thing for my nmother, just as you are. It is a huge job, isn't it?! And the pain we suffer because of it all. But 103 years old?!!! Horrors - I/we can't keep it up for another twenty years, thats for sure!!!!! :roll:
Good thing we found this group! At least we know we're not alone.
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Only Me - I hope this won't sound insensitive but a dear friend of mine who died of breast cancer last year would sometimes talk about playing the"cancer card." Two years ago I got us a lovely room overlooking the ocean and she asked me if I'd played the "cancer card" to get the room so maybe this kind of talk is ok? You really have had such a struggle in your life Only Me; you are fighting to hang on to your health, your sanity, your day to day peace of mind. I URGE you to think of playing any card you have in your deck!!!! Oh my, you have the Flu already!! (or anything else - it certainly sounds like your immune system can't handle much since it is so compromised by this woman) The cousins will just have to manage. Or you have emergency tests, something, anything!! Ok, so if that doesn't work, what about going for 2 days. You could even go to Vancouver in 2 days!! God I really do feel upset that you have to put yourself through this. I realize lying isn't the long term answer here...truth is the answer - telling yourself the truth - that your mother is harming your very life. It is true, Only Me - there is no greater stressor in one's life I believe, no greater cause of disease. The truth is that you can't physically handle these long visits.
Believe that you are worth taking care of and maybe with your husband's help brainstorm some answers. Really focus on it. Not only are these 3 day visits not working for you, they may be killing you. Three hours is my limit after that I really start to come unhinged. I've heard that more than 3 hours with a pyschopath can do this!!
We need action here!!!!!!!! Best action - NO ACTION _ DON"T GO! DON"T GET YOUR HAIR CUT! DON"T GIVE A GOOD GOD DAMN WHAT THIS VERY SICK WOMAN THINKS! or the cousins - of course they are charmed by her...of course. But we know OnlyMe, a whole lot of people know what this is all about and they have chosen to honour themselves and have a life.. Now say after me. I don't give
a flying F***! Honestly, the gut wrenching terror that you convey here is so god awful, so damaging that no one should spend a minute feeling what you feel, not one minute!!!!!
Ok Only Me I'm going to go out in the garden and calm down but I think your situation is so toxic,..so much more toxic than mine. For one thing my brother and sister are really getting it and that validation is important. You don't have that. This is like being slowly cannabilized.
I know you may feel that there is no way out. So lets work on that. There is always a way. There is. I just feel the urgency of your situation. Don't go away (from the board ) ok? Keep fighting for yourself OnlyMe.
Les
Les
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Dear OnlyMe,
Much of the power Ns hold over us is the feeling of obligation, the "have to's". Read over your post again and notice how many times you used that phrase, I have to...
What if you didn't? (just being devil's advocate or voiceless advocate here :) ).
What if you didn't stress yourself out, what if you didn't visit her, what if your cousins could manage on their own, what if they badmouthed you like crazy, what if you didn't care, what if you took care of yourself because no one else did while you were growing up.
Don't let your Nmom keep you small and keep pushing you down into the ground. If your cousins think you're rotten, ask them to do you a favor and take care of her for a while. See what thanks they get.
My brother is subtly pushing me into the position of caring for major King Kong Eternal Patient NDad. Reminds of a young girl at my kids' school urging everyone else to go be nice to the outcasts: Go be nice to her, go be nice to that person. You do it.
You don't have to.
Peace, Seeker
PS to Les: know what you mean about the "card". Ns are onto the game of competitive victimhood. No one's suffering is greater than their own. Every game they play they have to win. That includes being sick.
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Thank you, thank you, thank you, Les and Seeker.
You have helped me become stronger just now! Thank you for taking the time to help me. It was not wasted.
And, yes, Les - you are bang-on about the cancer reminder (Seeker, I'm in remission from C, and I'm trying hard to stay that way). I have been under the weather this week, nothing serious, and have been trying to take care of my health b/c I know it hangs by a thread. And yet, yes, I put myself through hell trying to be all that my nm expects me to be, all the while knowing, intellectually, that I will never be what she wants, no matter what I do. And, also knowing that she doesn't give a hoot if it kills me.
I can't thank you enough for your ideas, and I have been thinking - you have a point : Two days - so what if it doesn't suit Her completely? I'd have fewer changes of clothes to worry about (and I'll wear my baggy layers which annoy her completely but make me feel comfortable and safe, what the heck - I'll wear my HRenfrew shoes and purse to make up for it, haha!). I'd have fewer hours of her insufferable self. Excellent point. In fact, I feel better, already, honestly! My eyes puddled when I read your supportive words. I swear one of my muscle knots just loosened! I've been living on 222's this week, for headaches and muscle knots, which I know are largley caused my anticipation of being with nM. Honestly, I am not weak or stupid, but I seem to fall under her spell and lose all sight of myself, sometimes. So, here I say : "I don't give a flying F*** through a rolling donut." Now, I have to believe it!!
And Seeker, you have a good point about all my 'have to's'. Very perceptive of you, and a very self-destructive habit of mine. It made me think : who taught me this behaviour, after all? Yup, the Nmother herself. She is the one who taught me to bow down to her every wish, no matter what. I have a deeply ingrained habit of putting her needs first, and that must stop. She will outlive us all, probably. (Horrors, thinking of that 103yr old woman, yikes!)
I sometimes find it hard to stay strong on my own, and my dear H does what he can. I know he gets frustrated by the whole thing. I try not to be a bother to anyone. Therefore, I cannot begin to tell you how much I appreciate your supportive words. They have given me a very healthy perspective, have helped reinforce what I truly know in my heart, and have given me a new strength tonight. Thank you, and hugs to you both.
ps: nm phoned while I was just writing this, and I let it go to 'Call Answering' ! How's that for a positive step?! :wink:
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Boy, I wish I was brave enough to play ANY card. The best I have done is stop going to her church, and as gracefully as I can refuse to attend some dinner that she bought a table at (usually fundraisers - they always hit her up.....) I've got the support of my executive team - I just have to remember to NEVER have a meeting without them!!!! (Not safe in a meeting alone with Nmom......................) Sometimes I wish I could move out of town, that my husband would get transferred so I would have to move away..................but my kids are in high school and I hate to uproot them.
And I also understand why you would want to go to be with cousins. They can't understand that your mom is the way she is. Isn't it true that N parents keep most of their "stuff" in the family of origin? Aren't most others immune to it? (Well, I guess I answered my own question - my employees are immune to her.......................)
My husband's parents are N, too, and I love what he does. We go visit them but we stay at a hotel and we give them a few hours for dinner and visiting, but then we are out of there. He says something like, "Well, I'm gonna go show Kell around, maybe we'll see you tomorrow....." Can you believe that? I could never do that to my mom.
Kelly
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That's a girl!!! Go for it Only Me. " I don't give a friggin f*** through a rolling donut!! That's the spirit!! More of it please!!
I used to work with "mentally retarded" kids in the 60's. I was a teenager. My mother sniffed, "Charity begins at home." Now there is some reason why I just told you that but I'm not sure what it was! I guess it's about you being trained to always put your mother's needs first.
Two years ago, when I lost my voice, could hardly swallow and had surgery for essentially a stress -induced problem, my sister said. DON'T CARE SO MUCH!! DEATCH!! SHE's HAD HER LIFE. YOU HAVEN"T HAD YOURS.
SO sister girl I say keep it up. Such great advice from SEEKER. All these bloody HAVE TOs!! Your Nm gets all the WANT TOs and you get all the HAVE TOs. NO more OnlyMe
More Call answering, fewer 222's;
Keep taking those steps Kelly - for now those baby steps are giving you a tiny bit of breathing room, room to plan some bigger steps - we all need to take lessons from your husband!
One more thought - "my mother only has me." I know that tune so well even though I have a brother and a sister. There's 'only you' is my Nm's theme song too and it's a tunless, dishonest, hackneyed, manipulative, piece of absolute and utter twaddle. She disguises the fact that there are other people in her life, people that she gets alot of pleasure from. I know the sad refrain is true on one level - you are the daughter, that's true, but not spare parts for her - not true.
Les
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..........
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OnlyMe,
If you go - I am sending energy your way to have the strength for the first time in your life to do things "Your Way"!
Lyrics from the song "My Way":
For what is a man, what has he got?
If not himself, then he has naught.
To say the things he truly feels;
And not the words of one who kneels.
The record shows I took the blows -
And did it my way!
Take the blows, brush them off your shoulder, walk tall, keep your chin up, and every stictch of clothing you choose, the way you fix your hair, the words you say, the food you eat - THINK - 'I'm doing it MY WAY!"
Kelly,
As much as your Nmom has trained you and you have trained yourself to think you need this job - it is not true! There are other jobs out there, working for people who appreciate and value your talents. If you live in a small town where jobs are scarce, there are work from home opportunities. Please don't keep letting your mom drive your life for you. The only way to recupperate from the harm they have done is to get away from them. And if you could find another job, just think of the satisfaction of telling your Nmom you REALLY don't need her anymore! My Nparents had me believing all these years that I needed their gifts of money. They would send the kids money at Christmas and I used to think that my kids would not have a good Christmas without the money from the grandparents. Over the past couple of years, I stopped planning what I would buy for the kids with the grandparents money and started just giving them the money. Now I don't care if they ever send them a penny again. I weaned us from their hold.
They also had me believing that I couldn't make decisions without their input, but the input they gave was not at all what I wanted to hear, nor was it valid! So when I stopped talking to them and listening to them, I started making my own decisions and gaining the confidence that I could be RIGHT!
It is a weaning process, much like weaning your baby from breast feeding. It is painful and it is a separation, but in the end, it is a necessary process to have a healthy life for you and your children.
My Nparents tried to tell us they had my kids best interest at heart, but they were just trying to give my kids their spin on life and convince them that their parents were WRONG! Now my kids don't even know their grandparents. They laigh when they call because they know the grandparents are not calling to talk to them, but to make themselves feel good.
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Hi OnlyMe
Just thinking about your name. Flower changed hers - flower with metal petals I believe.
So I'm thinking that one day you might be: Only...ME! or only,ME! or even just ME. Feel your edges, your skin, yourSELF.
Les (hmm I could use a name change)
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I'm not spare parts for my nmother -
that is Huge!!! You are brilliant, Les. What a great sentence!
I didn't realize how much I needed to be a part of the group until now. When I feel weak at my broken places, you and the others seem to know just the thing to say. And, the most important part is the support from others who understand the roller-coaster ride, and how important it is for us to stand up for ourselves. I seem to back-slide into my old ways of thinking when left to my own devices for very long, but this board reminds me that I have a life to live, and that my life has value just because it is mine and mine alone.
I often don't write anything here, because sometimes my burdens seem trivial, but, yet, they are all symptoms of the greater abuse, and the struggle to accept that I have a right to have my voice.
Thank you so much, for I'm stronger, today, and that is wonderful. :D
... and your name change ideas are good ones - 'flower with metal petals' had quite a powerful impact on me at the time.
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Hello OnlyMe, Les & all,
One of my parents is sucking up all the sympathy they can in the name of old age, but oh I forgot, they're not old. :roll:
So I relate (in anticipation) to some of the stories told here on this thread. ouch.
I have a new analogy I wanted to share that came to me while thinking of our aging Nparents. Are any of you familiar with the carnival game called, I think, Whack-a-Mole? You take a hammer and bop the mole that comes out of one of maybe four or five different holes. The mole pops up and WHACK! you gotta smack it back down. But what happens if the mole gets "stuck" and stays up? The machine must be broken! So Nparent keeps trying to hit us moles back down into the holes. Oh man, N is gonna lose the game if N can't hit the mole back down!
I think that's what happens when we stand up to our Ns.
Whack-a-mole! Makes my head hurt. Best thing is to find a different game... :wink: Seeker
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Exactly Seeker...just don't play the game. Don't engage. I'm on my way for my weekly visit to my mother tomorrow and there are some issues brewing. Big ugly ones. I've been practising tonight -well, if she's says this, I'll duck it this way or that way. Duck! - that's right!
Haven't heard of that particular game -poor mole! but I can tell you my head hurts! Even at 91 for Nm it's all about demonstrating superiority in everything. Out smarting, outmanouvering - thing is I don't want to play, never asked to play but she keeps setting me up. I feel like I'm her straight man - good to play off against. I asked her awhile back why she feels she has to put me down all the time. I'm so flat, barely alive, barely verbal with her-what's to compete with? What's to whack!? Sheesh.
Les
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Les, take the strength of all of us with you when you visit your Nmom. It helped me the last time I had to pay my penance!
I think these old girls have to put us down, because then they are always superior, in their sick eyes. I have noticed from some comments that nm has made lately, that she was jealous of the time I would spend with my dad, and she clearly was and still is competitive, even though I am not. They always have to be The Best, even if it is their own daughter who they are fighting. Heaven help us if we even begin to shine nearly as bright in any way, shape or form. What sick little minds they have. But, it is about Control, as well. If they make us feel small, put us in our place by their cutting words or worse, by not acknowledging us at all, then they are still The Queen, and that is all that matters to them. We are food for their sickness. They feed on us, suck our energy, suck out our very life force. They are energy vampires. Geeeze, I'm getting on a bit of a rant, here, aren't I? I'm trying to support you as you prepare for your Penance, and I get so angry that we have to go through this pain at all. I think that we are trying so hard to do the right thing, but, dang, it is hard to keep it up all these years. We deserve some peace, and we deserve to be able to follow our own spirit for a change - why does that seem like such a dream?
I'm not going for three days, only two, so I'll be here when you get back from your visit, if you need to vent, or worse, if she hits you with something from left field, as always seems to happen to me. Thanks to you, I'm not heading out until early Sat am! Broke the news to her last night, and felt like quite the rebel. And I played the 'fibromyalgia' and 'fear of cancer coming back if my immune systems gets low' cards.... couldn't have done it without you!
So, please know that we are all in this together, and take some strength with you, as will I.
(and remember those wise words : I don't give a flying f!) :lol:
Update:
Les, Seeker, et al -
it is morning, and nm just phoned to make sure I am all right, she is worried about my health, now, and blah blah blah. The worst part is that she sounded caring, but then I realized that is impossible, that she is 'playing' the caring mother (already told her friend about my ill health, etc.. got sympathy, stroking, nfood), so I didn't say much, but reassured her that I would be coming to see her, nonetheless. Oh this rollercoaster ride. My eyes puddled once again, for the mother I will never have - the grieving just goes on and on, even though the nparent is still alive.
* and tigerlily,
I think of you often, for your pain will end now, with the passing of your nmother. I hope it brings you some comfort knowing you are off the rollercoaster ride and free to be 'you'.
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She's a rebel and she'll never be any good- NOT! Thanks for the rebellious words O.M. I think I've got it all sorted out and then it feels like I'm starting all over. The other day my mother explained to me for the 100th time that she is only now going through menopause ( not really, she's just come off HRT after 40 years) She said, "That must really rot your socks!" I've been through menopause but why she would think that it would rot my socks that she is getting night sweats... well, I see what she is driving at - that it must be difficult to have such a young vibrant mother who looks like your sister. Anyway the competition thing is something else.
Yes, don't shine too brightly. Talk about a target. Low profile. Then of course you get slagged for being flat and limp and dumpy. Can't win.
I am so glad you are only going for 2 days! Can you leave late and return early!!! I understand about them playing the part of the caring mother. Makes me grind my teeth. I think it is vital that you do (ok me too) everything possible to love and protect yourself. Whatever it takes. The thing is you would never actually be dishonest re: your health. You ARE just stating the truth. You DO need to take very good care of yourself., every day, every day.
Visit with nm put off until tomorrow - a quick run through the grocery store with her and then on my way to Ottawa this weekend.
You know what OM. I don't give a flying F! THanks for reminding me!
Les
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...but let me be clear OnlyMe- say anything, do anything to get your life back. It's all good and all fair. When I said that you weren't being dishonest in the previous e-mail I only meant to convey that I believe it's not possible to overemphasize the time you need to clear her out, to blow up the pipeline she has into your soul and begin to mend. Ah we need to rant for sure. Ok I'll stop obsessing now!
Les
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Hi Les,
Our paths are so similar. And, I'm off the 222's today - feeling better since I shortened my trip by one day! THNX! I am working on getting my life and health back, again. I must never forget how important that is, thanks for the reminders.
Your old doll is having hot flashes - what a hoot!! Mine barely has a wrinkle, thinks she is beautiful, and thinks that make-up and jewelry will disguise her age - 85! This weekend, I intend to mirror back her expressions as best I can, put on my happy face, as best I can, and try to get out of there relatively unscathed. I hope you can do the same. These old NM's don't know how lucky they are to have us! How dare they compete with us? How dare they not treat us with respect?! How dare they not love us to bits, just because we are always there for them?! The old bats!!! I feel another rant coming on - and the only good thing about that is that I'm getting my spunk back! :-)
Safe trip to your NM's, and safe trip 'up the line' to The Valley, eh?! :wink:
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http://health.groups.yahoo.com/group/AdultsRecoveringFrom-NarcissiticParents/
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Just spent a couple of days with my old NM, and for the first time I observed her behaviour from a different perspective. I had read that N's frequently behave as though they were six years of age, and that we should sometimes think of them that way. And I clearly saw that some of her reactions to situations were exactly like those of a six year old. It was amazing to witness. And, the most therapeutic part is that when she displayed behavior much like a six year old, I reacted to her as though she were a child, and therefore her attempt at creating the usual drama did not succeed. As a result, we did not dance our usual dance! I usually suffer for days after having been with her, but this time, my eyes are dry. I sat out some of The Dance steps, this time. :wink:
Thank you, Les and everyone - I am learning so much from you all.
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Hello OnlyMe,
Hugs to you!!
It's a great feeling when we realize that we can have some control in our interactions with N, even if only inside. You have made so much progress in limiting your exposure, and sitting out the dance. Way to go!
Give yourself a big reward and do something nice for yourself.
:D Seeker
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Oh what a thrill to read that! Real progress can be made! Terrific OnlyMe.
I've never heard it put quite that way -about N's being like 6 year olds. My mother is almost always very childish.
I keep learning as well. And as I GET it I try to stand back and not engage. Such a study in N she is. Here's a taster's sample from my visit. { I walk in her apt. and observe that her furniture is covered with sheets. I know that she is having some painting and plastering done so I say, "So I see that they are still at it." Nm says, " Well, I wouldn't say that, the plasterers are gone and I have no idea when the painters are coming." Is it just me? Am I so inaccurate. Everything I say has to be adjusted and corrected.
Later on we went shopping. We get food together and so to be able to tell her bags from mine we tie a knot or "bunny ears" as my mother likes to say, in one set. As I was loading the bags in the trunk, mother (God help me if I ever call her "mom") asked whose bags had the bunny ears. I told her mine did. She seemed a little ticked and asked again about the bunny ears. I told her again that my order had the bunny ears (I can't believe I'm writing this!) but next time she could have them (said with some humour I thought). Her shtick is to be cute -small, flirtatious, cute. I mentioned the "cute" factor and that her bags could be the cute ones next time since she is cute. She got rather huffy about this cute stuff, denied that this was her at all but then a bit later she went on for a good 20 minutes about how everyone thinks she is so cute and always wants to take care of her and so forth. This has ALWAYS been her thing -cute, in a coy, batting of eyelashes, wide- eyed, startled looking, kind of way, that is when she isn't being "THE GENERAL" as she is called in the family. There seem to be a number of distinct people in there. Ah me. My cute 6 year old mother. It works alright.
Les
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Great Article:
"Now We Are Six"
http://www.halcyon.com/jmashmun/npd/six.html
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My Dad is still in his terrible twos...want to make the decision but can't make the decision, wants "mommy' to make the decision, but doesn't want her to have control...uh oh, there go the lips, the eyes....here comes a tantrum!! :roll: Favorite word is No.
Seeker
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My gosh. Just read the "Now we are six" post. Thanks very much Guest for that and thanks OnlyMe for bringing it up. Don't know how I missed such an important aspect of all this. But there she is, my Nm, down to the last detail. So could you say that Narcissism is really just a case of arrested development? I've been thinking of it as some deficiency - something missing -a hole in the brain or the soul. Somehow it is easier to think of my mother as simply stuck at six. Awhile ago we had a family gathering - there was an actual 6 year old at it. My mother kept muttering to my then 14 year old daughter that this child was a "little bitch." We all understood that the child was stealing the attention from my mother -she saw her as a real threat, direct competition.
Seeker - just thinking about your 2 year old dad - hope you can stay clear of those temper tantrums.
Les
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Hi Les,
Thanks, yes, I steer clear like a bullfighter in the ring--I never take him on directly. Sure disaster if you do. :D
And yes, arrested development is a good way to think of N. I observe many Ns who act like immature teenagers, self-absorbed, demanding, not sure of their goals, but just want whatever you're having/getting.
Also, one of my character indicators is how people feel about kids: their own, the kids of their friends (to a lesser degree, because of course the children of their important friends are worthy), and kids you just happen to see at the playground. How hands-on or hands-off they are. My father has no ability or desire to enter a child's world to spend time with them. There is no world except the one in his head. I have heard a few people say pretty mean, cutting things about children who were minding their own business and it always blows me away. :shock:
Well peace y'all! Seeker
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My NMother went to dinner at a friends’ house, with other friends and their children. One of the young male children took some food meant for sharing and said “Mmm, I’m having all of this!” My mother gave him the ‘evil eye’ and said “Watch it buster!”. She thinks that was okay. She revels in how everyone went silent.
She was being a child with him. What’s amazing is that none of the other adults intervened. Everyone kept quiet, embarrassed. Poor child must have been scared of her. And no-one put him – or her – right. So he thinks it’s okay for adults to treat children like that. Why didn’t someone say something? Like “Oops little Johnny, I don’t think that lady liked you wanting all those to yourself did she? She probably wants them all to herself! Let’s share them out shall we?”. I wasn’t there or I would have done something. Kids need explanation, not confusing silence.
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Yes, they are all the center of their own universe, like babies and young children. But, I would never confuse this personality disorder with a physiological problem like retardation of development. When a brat grows up they can still choose to be kind and consider others. The NQueenmother used to throw the biggest tantrums and fits ever imaginable. When I was a kid I was embarrassed for her. It did not matter to her how awful she looked rolling around on the floor crying and screaming, throwing things at everyone. She would do it in public too, and in front of my friends, making me ashamed. Then she could turn if off in a split second, just amazing how quick she could flip back and forth --- psycho bitch.
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She was being a child with him. What’s amazing is that none of the other adults intervened. Everyone kept quiet, embarrassed.
This happens all the time at my parents. They scare their grandchildren (my niece, nephew) by getting angry with them over little things. I intervene and of course my parents get very angry with me for doing so. Better for them to turn on me than on children. BTW the children's parents don't defend them or intervene. Just sit there like bumps on a log.
bunny
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Hi,
"bumps on a log". We did that for years at family gettogethers. We were struck mute by years and years of conditioning to "be nice" "polite" that is "shut up, stupid". I don't know why we were so stupid to the fact that the N didn't feel the need to be nice or polite but expected us to take the high road all the time. :roll: Other times I was literally struck speechless by what I was witnessing. When in doubt, I clam up...still do. Ugh.
Seeker
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I'm another bump on the log. And I hate it, but I still sit there, quietly. I guess it is all the N training, and that I finally realize that it is pointless to say a word. Safer to stay quiet, and avoid the darts.
Even though I seemed to survive being with my nM on the weekend, my energy was completely drained. It has taken me days to feel like writing a note to keep in touch with you all. And I really resent losing that many days, basically feeling drained. I still get all my stuff done, but it takes all my energy, if you know what I mean.
I feel that the theory of the N having part of their emotional growth arrested around six years of age makes sense, and it helps me cope with some of the antics, when I observe them from that point of view. I saw a few episodes clearly. One temper tantrum was hilarious when I looked at it from a childish perspective.
Les, I laughed thinking of those bunny ears! Here is my six-year-old NM story from the weekend :
We had gone out to dinner with relatives, and of course I had to tell NM a hundred times how lovely she looked. It is always like this : NN- Does this suit look nicer on me than the other outfit? Me- It looks lovely. NM- Yes, it does, doesn't it?! and on and on and on, broken record. Well, at the end of the weekend, as I was getting into the car, she grabbed me by the shoulders and said "Tell me one more time how lovely I looked on Saturday night!" I said "I told you a hundred times already" and she replied, practically twirling her hair with her finger, just like a 6yr old : "I forgot what you said, please tell me just one more time." It was then that all sorts of bells and whistles went off in my head - she is a little girl, inside! But, I didn't dance this time. Instead, I said "Why don't you tell me how lovely I looked, instead?! (as if that would ever happen!) and I laughed, got in the car and waved good-bye! And this time, I didn't cry all the way home, and that is a huge step.
It is tough having a senior NParent, and I appreciate having the understanding of all of you, and knowing that I am not on this journey alone. We can make it!!!
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Thanks for sharing this Only Me:
I said "Why don't you tell me how lovely I looked, instead?! (as if that would ever happen!) and I laughed, got in the car and waved good-bye! And this time, I didn't cry all the way home, and that is a huge step.
I smiled a lot reading this. I felt good for you. Huge step! What a great voice you've got. Was it 'easy' to do that? To decide to assert your self? i.e. was the effort to do that greater than the effect you had on yourself, or was the effect greater than the effort involved?
Doing this, not taking their stuff and not taking it with humour, is so great. Especially the humour part, it deflects and removes any anger or aggression. Fantastic! :)
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Was it 'easy' to do that? To decide to assert your self? i.e. was the effort to do that greater than the effect you had on yourself, or was the effect greater than the effort involved?
:)
It was the first time I have been able to do this, to be able to laugh inside at something NM has done, but, the effort it took for me to do so has left me like a limp rag. It has taken years to reach this point, and I still have tons of painful baggage that I drag around with me.
But at least it's a step in the right direction.
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Hi again OM: thanks for your reply. I read your post again and saw at the top
I finally realize that it is pointless to say a word. Safer to stay quiet, and avoid the darts.
but even so, you spoke up, you found your voice. Maybe it's *safer* (easier) to stay quiet, but perhaps it keeps you in the voiceless place, being safe. It takes strength to speak out, to deflect the stuff your mom directs towards you. You did so well, I'm sorry it takes so much energy but please congratulate yourself for that huge, very important step. It's a breakthrough isn't it? It seems like it :D Humour is an excellent way to deflect N darts.
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Damn - got to get over being a bump on a log! What did you say Seeker? -stunned into silence ...let me check...ah, struck speechless by what you were witnessing. That's the thing. It can be so off the wall it's hard to know how to respond.
OnlyMe - I think this does get easier as time goes on. You've taken the most important step - beginning to trust yourself and your perceptions of what's going on. Love the comment to your mother about maybe telling YOU that you look good! Her need for your .... what is it, your stroking? I was going to say your approval or validation, but that's not really it because she doesn't see YOU. So it's hold up the mirror one more time and tell me how lovely I am. Right out there in the twilight zone.
For some reason I had a bit of a set back this week. Maybe getting better is like this. Approaching the weekly visit I was full of anger. On the way there I was shouting "Die, Die, why don't you die." I really want to get beyond that and I thought I was.
I noted that absolutely everything I said was either negated, adjusted or improved upon. And I say nothing that is the least controversial, I say very little at all. Even my empathetic ( maybe just pathetic) comments needed to be tinkered with. At the risk of being boring and repetitive I'm just going to write out what happened. When I arrived to take her shopping there was a great song and dance about how she had been "hot" during the night and had a "dry" mouth. She said she had been "terrified" and couldn't sleep. Her dear friend (who is sooo concerned about her don't you know and would do anything for her blah blah) came by RIGHT AWAY. I said something - reflecting back to her that she had been afraid. Well, of course she hadn't been afraid!! oh yes that's right - she had been terrified. I used to be called "Mute girl." I think I'll add totally bamboozled girl. Hmm I just got something. I am not reflecting back to my mother exactly and precisely what she wants to hear about herself. She wants an exact copy - no interference from this Les person. I am called upon to answer questions and to comment all the time. But there is only one right answer. In fact maybe that's not even right. I think no matter what I say to her she enjoys the pleasure of even more finely tuning and projecting with 100% accuracy the total magnificence of who she is.
Oh I don't know - sorry to be long winded and sorry to apologize but it's just how I feel at the moment - I'll wrap this up.
Les
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Gee, Les, your message is like I wrote it myself. My dearH just passed by my desk and I read your paragraph to him, and he said he thought we must have the same mother! Honestly, they are interchangeable. And they always leave us reeling, don't they?
I know exactly what you mean - I cannot seem to say the exact words correctly, either. nM needs to hear certain words, and yes, I am corrected constantly. Between not being able to say a complete sentence or wear the right clothes, in her mind, it is amazing that I can manage to walk and talk at all.
Yes, the nM needs stroking, and I find that there is a quota that she seems to require. I seriously seem to think that there is a quota of stroking that is required each day, whether from me or from an outside source - and if it isn't met, then she asks for it. I wasn't forthcoming with many flattering comments this past trip, b/c I just was so tired of the whole game, and so she resorted to asking for compliments - like
NM: Don't these gold earrings look wonderful on me?
Me: they look perfect.
NM: yes they do, don't they? But these pearl ones look nice on me, too, don't they?
Me: they look lovely too
NM: Yes, they do, don't they?
Gag, choke, gag......
Well, it seems that I have come down with a stress-related ailment, as a result of the past six months or so (dying Dad, etc), and when I mentioned it today on the phone, didn't she say that she had the same thing?!and the conversation resorted to describing her health ad nauseum.....of course. Stupid me - I flogged myself for even mentioning that I was imperfect. Damn.
But, I guess all this is to say, yeah, Les, I know what you mean - I'm in the same damn boat. Good to know I'm not alone!
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Les,
Someone asked me about my NM, and I found myself saying "I'm just riding it out..." which is another way of saying the same thing as you. Just riding it out....... :?
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Les,
Get it out. Don't worry about being long winded. I for one like hearing about your mom (alternately funny and horrifying).
Well, my mom just sent me a birthday email (I've trained her not to call by not picking up the phone anymore). She typed the Happy Birthday song and then said the following:
Dear Lisa,
"You were a darling baby even though I had a tough time keeping you alive. Your card is in the mail." My card is always late btw.....
I thought you might get a laugh out of that :? Now what the hell am I to make of that? I wrote back "Thanks for keeping me alive"!!!!!!!!!!!!
It's not much but I thought it was amusing.
Maybe you should get a doll made in the image of your mom (one you can rip the head off). Or maybe one you can stick pins in.....? Or one with a big 'ol mirror attached to the hand :) Hang in there dear Canadian lady.
No fine tuning required for your incredible expressions here.
MM
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Hi mightymouse
Happy Birthday!
We're glad she kept you alive, too!!!
And your b'day episode reminded me of my birthdays. I was born a couple of weeks after Christmas, and without fail, my birthday presents always were wrapped in Christmas Paper, and inevitably, my card was a generic Christmas card, with a Happpy Birthday scrawled somewhere on it. Isn't that special?! Not to mention that I am her only child. It's not like there was a whole tribe of kids to remember! And it was always handed to me at Christmas, and I had to wait weeks to open it. Hope you get a laugh out of that!
Oh, the joys of a NParent...and I won the door prize by having two NP's!
Yup, it's a wonder I can walk and talk at the same time! :roll:
And Les, don't forget that we're in this together - and the days that you don't feel like jotting a line here are the days we wish you would, okay? - your Cdn friend. :wink:
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Thanks, OM and nice to meet ya!! I've been enjoying your posts here.
MM
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Ha! a good Sunday morning laugh! Sometimes I do think it's remarkable that I can walk and talk at the same time too, especially after my mother
gives me her beer bottles to return and tells me slowly and caarreffully that you can get money back for them. I played along. Trying the "humour" thing! "Really mother? I had no idea. Thirty five years of returning beer bottles and I never figured it out."..then she figured me out! Her response is usually "why you little****" with a mock swing at my head. It is supposed to be funny and I attempt a laugh, but she used to connect. When I watch movies from the 30's and 40's the women are always slapping someone - wonder if this is where she got that move. At times I'm tempted to think it's old age but she has always treated me (what did they say about Gerald Ford?) like I couldn't walk and chew gum at the same time.
Thank you thank you for your encouragement to write Only Me and Mighty Mouse. I feel a little defeated sometimes when I feel that I shouldn't write here because maybe A) it's too stupid B) it's too long, it's always too long C) it's so far fetched maybe people will think I'm making it up - thank you Only Me for telling me that our mothers sound interchangeable! Phew!
Well MM isn't that a lovely sentiment for your birthday. She is certainly looking to score points. Did she actually do something over and above to "keep you alive." I may have told you before (but hey, I'm going to eat up some space here) but my mother likes to take full credit for my existence as well since she saved me from that 'terrible drunk' (my father) who wanted her to abort me. Oh um well, thanks mom. And thanks for making 100% absolutely sure that there would be no relationship in the family other than the queen and her adoring worker bee.
Only Me - what a thing for you to be given your birthday presents on Christmas day but not be allowed to open them for several weeks until your birthday. Sure made YOU feel special. Boy these NMs make me mad.
Well, just riding it out- Ah! I went hang gliding in California 2 years ago after all this stress business in my throat ( still there, not surprisingly)... think I might picture myself riding the air currents and adjusting my glider to get maximum lift away from all the bluster and bull of that tiny "perfect"MN.
Les
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s)[/HAPPY BIRTHDAY MIGHTY MOUSE!!!! ********!!!!!!******!!!!!!!(fireworks] :D
Hugs to you birthday girl - es tu Libra?
Les
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Approaching the weekly visit I was full of anger. On the way there I was shouting "Die, Die, why don't you die." I really want to get beyond that and I thought I was.
I've decided not to judge my murderous rage toward others. I often wished that my MIL would die and expressed these feelings to my therapist and to a coworker who could relate (not to my H; I don't think he needed to hear it). I also have murderous rage toward my own parents but I am more interested in keeping them alive for various reasons...
Bottom line, we all have murderous rage, it is a primitive, infantile feeling and doesn't have to be confused with adult mature coping skills.
I want your mother to go away (permanently) and I don't even know her. :wink:
bunny
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I wasn't forthcoming with many flattering comments this past trip, b/c I just was so tired of the whole game, and so she resorted to asking for compliments - like
NM: Don't these gold earrings look wonderful on me?
Me: they look perfect.
NM: yes they do, don't they? But these pearl ones look nice on me, too, don't they?
Me: they look lovely too
NM: Yes, they do, don't they?
Gag, choke, gag......
This reminds me of a child who demands that I repeat the same script over and over (and over), not realizing or caring how tedious this game is to a grownup. This is how I deal with it: "I'll say it one more time and that's it."
bunny
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[/quote]This is how I deal with it: "I'll say it one more time and that's it."
That's Brilliant, bunny - I'll try it at Thanksgiving, and let you know how it works on an OLD NM 6yr old! I have a hunch that I'll still have to meet a quota of NM stroking, but we'll see what happens!
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es tu Libra?
Si, senora!! Guess that month in SMA did me some good :)
Well, the story on me being alive is: I wouldn't eat (guess I didn't want the teet even way back then, he, he). This went on for 3 weeks and my mother took me to doctors who said that I'll eat when I'm hungry. Well she didn't believe them and grew anxious (she probably was right, I don't know). So she said she held my nose and forced me to open my mouth at which time she forced me to eat. After a while I just started eating again (although I don't think I took her breast milk). And then I had an episode where I was into a convulsion and turning blue (I don't know when this was relative to the whole eating thing), and my Dad had to run up stairs and smack me to get me out of it. So she saved my life by force feeding me and Dad saved my life by smacking me out of a convulsion.
So see, they really did save my life. But as you mentioned in one of your posts, she brings things up out of left field usually for guilt tripping or manipulation purposes. But at least this one was funny. In fact most of the time anymore, I just see her bringing up ancient history as amusing. She said to me one day "I'm sorry you had money problems when you were 20" (like everybody doesn't?). This just out of the blue. I think she just likes to always try to keep me one down so to speak. But I just ignore that and her anymore.
BTW, Les. That story about your mom and the bunny ears was so surreal to read. My mom isn't a six year old, but I think she might have stalled at about 13 or so? She had a nutty family and was always trying to throw off the shackles of a literally crazy family. I think she did have it bad. I feel bad for her sometimes. It's probably why she's like she is.
MM
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Hang gliding? Wow, Les, that means that you can hang-glide, talk and probably chew gum all at the same time! **pom-poms** you're Super Girl :lol:
Remember that, when the crazy nm starts her antics - think : Hey, I can do something you can't do, you old bat!!! Nya Nya Nya !!!
OM is proud of you!!
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Hi everyone,
This forum is saving my brain, not to mention my soul. OnlyMe & Les' constant stream of compliments to their NMs sound waaaaaaaay too familiar. And I had to laugh at [sorry, too lazy to look up who wrote it] the NM explaioning how to get a deposit back from a bottle. Today I was told to simply put my NM's errant hat on her bed, because OBVIOUSLY I wouldn't be capable of hanging it up properly. Also whenever I don't like something she does -- a shoe style, a food -- it's only because I'm being "negative" or "stubborn." She still cna't quite believe I'm allergic to shellfish & often asks me if I've *really tried* eating it again. I told her I didn't *really* want to barf for 5 hours.
And is it my perception, or are many of us on this forum middle-age? I myself am 43 and finally am (a) seeing NM as a 4-year-old (or 6, or 2, depending), (b) giving her mirroring, (c) pretending I am merely a nursemaid to retain my sanity (NM just had heart surgery). In fact, as poor ol Dad & I were cleaning up & generally doing her bidding, a friend came over to wish her well, pretending with a large bow & scrape to do her honour (the friend is on to her)... and NM referred to Dad & myself as
"servants". Funny, 'coz ever since I was little I always wished NM would've had a slave to bug instead of us...
I've also taken to standing in the "at ease" pose while waiting for the Next Order From On High. It helps distance me from the fact that this is, in fact, my mother. Though sometimes I have to refrain from saluting when the order comes through. ;-) And I also have a running commentary going on internally:
NM: I really understand you better now!
Me, internally: <Like [bleep bleep bleep bleep bleep] hell, you [bleep bleep] do. You never tried before, so what the [bleep bleep bleep] makes you think you do NOW?!?!?!?!?>
I was not roundly abused physically but there are too many parellels I read in these posts (and I've been reading them for 6 hours), too many things that say NM in big neon letters. This isn't new to me; another friend of mine had told me about the Narcs since our mothers were so similar.
To jump around a bit... the 6-year-old thing is great; I was wondering if that's when NMs are first affected... my NM went through WWII in Europe (which we hear about IN-FRIGGIN-CESSANTLY) at about that age. And yes, it is too, too good to live FAR away. I used to live too close; now that there's an ocean between us I feel much saner, more adult, more MYSELF.
Her's looking forward to 3 days from now, when I get the hell outta hell and back to my real world.
Sorry about the long posts -- damn, this topic sure opens up the floodgates, don't it?!
meow mix
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Well, I have just been on the phone with nmom and am exhausted.
It is so draining to have to keep pretending to care about her long descriptions of her day and how wonderful she is, and how lovely she looks, etc. I seldom am able to squeeze in a complete sentence - it is all about her, for about an hour non-stop.
the above quote made me bust out crying...i thought i was alone-
i'll have to write later-jamie