Voicelessness and Emotional Survival Message Board
Voicelessness and Emotional Survival => Voicelessness and Emotional Survival Message Board => Topic started by: Certain Hope on June 11, 2008, 08:13:56 AM
-
Primary Rules for
Dealing with a Sociopath
by Martha Stout, author of The Sociopath Next Door
1-The first rule involves the bitter pill of accepting that some people literally have no conscience,
and that these people do not often look like Charles Manson or a Ferengi bartender.
They look like us.
2-In a contest between your instincts and what is implied by the role a person has taken on
-- educator, doctor, leader, animal-lover, humanist, parent--
go with your instincts.
Whether you want to be or not, you are a constant observer of human behavior,
and your unfiltered impressions, though alarming and seemingly outlandish, may well help you out if you will let them.
Your best self understands, without being told,
that impressive and moral-sounding labels do not bestow conscience on anyone
who did not have it to begin with.
3-When considering a new relationship of any kind, practice the Rule of Threes regarding the claims and promises a person makes,
and the responsibilities he or she has.
Make the Rule of Threes your personal policy.
One lie, one broken promise, or a single neglected responsibility may be a misunderstanding instead.
Two may involve a serious mistake.
But three lies says you're dealing with a liar, and deceit is the linchpin of conscienceless behavior.
Cut your losses and get out as soon as you can. Leaving, though it may be hard, will be easier now than later, and less costly.
Do not give your money, your work, your secrets, or your affection to a three-timer. Your valuable gifts will be wasted.
-
Hear hear.... Carolyn.
Lighter
-
Hello Hope-
This knowledge should be more widely disseminated- at least one required course for school children (middle school?) about victinmization, grooming of victims, sociopaths, etc., how and where to get help.
Love,
Changing
-
Changing.... I've been writing about the programs I'd like to see added to primary school education since I was in m early twenties.
Teaching them to identify dysfunction and predatory behavior.... so they recognize it when it's happening to them.
Yes.
Teaching them to identify the offender....
so they don't believe it's their fault.
Yes.
Now.... how to G rate it so the children from functional homes aren't traumatized by what's actually happening to thier less fortunate school chums?
Lighter
-
Hello Hope-
This knowledge should be more widely disseminated- at least one required course for school children (middle school?) about victinmization, grooming of victims, sociopaths, etc., how and where to get help.
Love,
Changing
Hi Changing,
Over here, over the pond! They have been rolling out a program to schools here in the UK for sometime now. With protected and strictly moderated websites solely for children.
Precautionary care needs to be taken -- so that children don't go home and try to impart their new knowledge to abusive parent(s) -- else they get a beating etc., from their disordered parent(s).
I can well imagine what would have happened in my household for all of us children, had we had any knowledge as such, and had dared to impart to our parent(s).
Also, we have (as you do too - having read the websites) websites for children to turn to with regard to being: Targeted / Victimized and being: Bullied - Cyberbullied - Mobile Phone Bullied.
And how to keep safe on the Internet.
My heart is for innocent children with no voice and no choice, globally, worldwide.
Love, Leah
-
If we don't teach the little victims to do better....
how can they do better?
Lighter
Breaks my heart to think about (anyone) dealing with the abusive parents, who rally against such programs.
But.... where does the cycle end?
If anywhere?
-
Lighter,
But, that's just it ......... the children are being shown a light..... via school outreach programs........ signposting to the websites.
Why not research was is happening near to where you live etc.,
Maybe, get in touch with the nearest women's dv support group and help volunteer .......... who most likely do outreach.
Websites to campaign - link to women's dv support organizations.
Practical stuff that we really all can do, globally. Talking about it alone, achieves nothing. "Out of Action - Into Traction"
Love, Leah
-
Hi Leah and Lighter-
I love the idea of educational websites dealing with the enlightenment and safety of children. I know that there are 3-D programs here taught by where children learn to be proactive in protecting themselves from physical harm- I think that a 3-D school-based program raising awareness and providing resources, would prevent so much abuse, especially for feral children ( I was one)
Love,
Changing
-
Hello Hope-
This knowledge should be more widely disseminated- at least one required course for school children (middle school?) about victinmization, grooming of victims, sociopaths, etc., how and where to get help.
Love,
Changing
Oh, I agree, Changing.
In many ways, I do think they're trying... but how to place a finger on the sort of culprit who often has everyone fooled?
For the past five years or so, our local schools have made quite a shift toward emphasizing sound character (through the "Character Counts" program, for one) and implemented a zero-tolerance policy toward cheating, lying, aggression, and other such anti-social behavior. Through this program and also personal experience with my ex-husband, they've definitely learned to see through the smokescreen and recognize the absence of character.
Around this same time, it became mandatory for all students involved in extra-curricular activities to submit to random drug testing... as it can be nearly impossible, it seems, to distinguish between someone using drugs or having a psychotic episode (especially where meth is concerned).
According to the signs posted all around the school buildings, there is a hotline number to be called - 24/7 - in order to make any sort of report, anonymously- if desired, re: potential threats and hazards within the student's school or family associations.
And just a couple weeks ago, on the table outside the Mid School office, were placed some leaflets on various mental health topics, including depression and obsessive compulsive disorder.
Can't say I saw anything directly about sociopathy, but many of the same principles are there within the stuff which deals with handling peer pressure, control freaks, the drug culture, etc.
All of this to say that I'd commend our local schools, anyway, for all of their efforts to prevent the victimization of our children by those who have seemingly made it their mission in life to destroy others. Trouble is, the place for this to be taught is in the home and, sadly, this is often where most of the damage is being done.
Carolyn
-
Hi Hope-
That is really encouraging!!!
Love,
Changing
-
Home is Where the Heart is ...................... OR ....................... Home is Where the HURT is ?
Love, Leah
-
Hi Hope-
That is really encouraging!!!
Love,
Changing
It is, Changing!
I only hope that when my oldest granddaughter begins school in the fall, she'll be someplace that shows at least as much awareness.
Thanks for making me think about it in these terms.
Love,
Carolyn
-
Hi,
I think public programs along the lines y'all speak are good backup for what should already be in motion in the home. I've been pushing the book Safe People for years here on the board. It teaches adults a lot of how to's when it comes to developing relationships. Any adult reader can then teach it to their children. It's a tool to start the process in the home.
Last night at church we broke up into twos to pray. The current leader's theme for the year is prayer. The group was made up of adults except for two girls about ten years old. For some reason, the leader paired me with one of the girls. I suggested that we take a walk in the church yard and pray and talk as we walked. The child was bursting with the need to tell me her prayer needs. Both parents are in prison. She misses her daddy the most because the mom was in from the time she was three. Daddy was just put away. My heart broke. She lives with her grandmother. I don't know the grandmother or if she is good roll model. The thing my heart mulls over and over is how by the acts of her parents, she is starting out life with a terrible handicap. Without a set of compassionate, caring, dedicated witnesses/mentors intervening in her life, the generational effect will take its toll.
tt
-
Both parents are in prison. She misses her daddy the most because the mom was in from the time she was three. Daddy was just put away. My heart broke. She lives with her grandmother. I don't know the grandmother or if she is good roll model. The thing my heart mulls over and over is how by the acts of her parents, she is starting out life with a terrible handicap. Without a set of compassionate, caring, dedicated witnesses/mentors intervening in her life, the generational effect will take its toll.
Ohhhh....tt...how saddened I was to read this, thank you for sharing this story, I'll keep the girl in my prayers. I have a sympathetic heart for those that have been abandoned by parents in any way, I know the suffering.
Lise
-
Hi,
Any adult reader can then teach it to their children. It's a tool to start the process in the home.
tt
The abusers aren't going to read those books or share those lessons with their vulnerable little victims.
Where do they find information, if not at school?
The Govermnent uses the Public School system to recruit for the Armed forces, bc it's a wonderful opportunity.
Why can't it be used to teach/help/educate our children about dysfunction and domestic abuse, with the same attention?
Lighter
-
Carolyn,
This past year I read The Sociopath Next Door, by Martha Stout.
If you do not mind me posting this (just want to keep the topic alive :wink:) for the sake of truth....I think that you understand, here is a review of this work:
How do we recognize the remorseless? One of their chief characteristics is a kind of glow or charisma that makes sociopaths more charming or interesting than the other people around them. They're more spontaneous, more intense, more complex, or even sexier than everyone else, making them tricky to identify and leaving us easily seduced. Fundamentally, sociopaths are different because they cannot love. Sociopaths learn early on to show sham emotion, but underneath they are indifferent to others' suffering. They live to dominate and thrill to win.
The fact is, we all almost certainly know at least one or more sociopaths already. Part of the urgency in reading The Sociopath Next Door is the moment when we suddenly recognize that someone we know, someone we worked for, or were involved with, or voted for, is a sociopath. But what do we do with that knowledge? To arm us against the sociopath, Dr. Stout teaches us to question authority, suspect flattery, and beware the pity play. Above all, she writes, when a sociopath is beckoning, do not join the game.
Thank you for bringing up this thread.
Lise
-
Hi Carolyn,
Thanks for this thread. I have never read this book. I am taking some time off work, think I will go to the library.
Our schools have instituted programs against antisocial behavior - plastered all over the walls are pictures that the kids drew designating the school a no bully zone - it is wonderful to see.
The other day my daughter came home (3rd grade) and started talking to me about Uncle Jim and inappropriate touching. We had touched basics with her, but apparently the school had them watch a film describing an "Uncle Jim" who inappropriately touched a child, and went on to describe what was inappropriate.
She came home from school and just started talking about it matter of factly - the details were hazy, but she wasn't alarmed by it. My only concern was that they didn't tell us ahead of time or let us preview the movie. I would have been better prepared to answer her questions - and she did have questions. They did send a note home telling us that they had shown the movie, but I didn't find it until after she started talking about Uncle Jim.
I am very glad to see this in the schools - this would never have been spoken of in my day.
My next big campaign - no spanking! (Not trying to start a flame war, I know this can be a hot topic - just stating my rather strong opinion on this.)
Peace
PS - tt - that little girl's story is so sad. I hope the GM is a good person. I can remember the simple kindness of people outside of my FOO as a child and I cherish those memories - while it doesn't replace true attachment, it kept me afloat.
-
::raising hand and with ya on the no spanking FP::
I'm all for positive consistent discipline and teaching, as opposed to punishment.
Lighter
-
tt, I hope that little girl you encountered will be able to return to church... so sad to think of the hand she's been dealt. Yet I know that she does have a loving Father.
Do you know of Angeltree Ministries? I think it may be a division of the Prison Fellowship ministry?
Maybe they would be glad to receive her name and minister to her, as well?
Might be something to check out, if her grandmother is willing to receive contact from them.
Peace, I hope that your little girl is calmed and better now after last night's experience... and you, too.
And I agree that the school should have offered parents the opportunity to preview that film and then sign, giving or declining permission to view it.
Seems like most schools follow such a protocol...
guess I'd want to find out what IS their policy.
Passing on the spanking issue.
Love, Carolyn
P.S. back later with more points re: sociopathy.
-
Well, first off, I never got back to include my commentary on the very first post... those first 3 points...
just some items from my own experience in encountering people who appear to have little or no conscience.
I don't know what letter of the alphabet best applies to them, but their effects on me are the same, regardless. It's sickening to be forced to get up close and personal with one of these creatures who wouldn't recognize the truth if it lept up and bit them in the butt.
Yes, they look just like everyone else... and it doesn't matter what title they claim.
In fact, the more they put on a show to convince you of what a people/animal/humanitarian issue-lover they are, the more you can be certain that they abuse those closest to them, keep their cat locked in the closet, and voted no on any legislation which may have offered relief to those suffering inequity.
One is a pastor's wife who will approach you with arms wide open and cover you with honeys and dears, then undercut you the moment you cross her purposes - without a 2nd thought.
Privately, she'll claim to share your view, but then slander you behind your back in ways that she thinks you'll never discover. When you hear about it and confront her, she'll malign the character of the person who revealed her lies to you... and the web she spins just grows stickier.
Three strikes and they're out - indeed. Solid rule, that.
-
Saw this 2005 OP on the board and it reminded me of this thread, so providing it here for those who come after.
Lighter
Author Topic: How to spot an abuser on your first date (Read 583 times)
Sallying Forth
Hero Member
Posts: 528
No longer a venture off the beaten path ...
How to spot an abuser on your first date
« on: November 13, 2005, 06:31:59 PM »
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
I found this information way back in the beginning of 2004. This might be a repeat from other posts. However I like the way the information is presented. Very clear and with questions.
HOW TO SPOT AN ABUSER ON YOUR FIRST DATE
Is there anything you can do to avoid abusers and narcissists to start with? Are there any warning signs, any identifying marks, rules of thumbs to shield you from the harrowing and traumatic experience of an abusive relationship?
Imagine a first or second date. You can already tell if he is a would-be abuser. Here's how:
1. Perhaps the first telltale sign is the abuser's alloplastic defenses - his tendency to blame every mistake of his, every failure, or mishap on others, or on the world at large. Be tuned: does he assume personal responsibility? Does he admit his faults and miscalculations? Or does he keep blaming you, the cab driver, the waiter, the weather, the government, or fortune for his predicament?
2. Is he hypersensitive, picks up fights, feels constantly slighted, injured, and insulted? Does he rant incessantly? Does he treat animals and children impatiently or cruelly and does he express negative and aggressive emotions towards the weak, the poor, the needy, the sentimental, and the disabled? Does he confess to having a history of battering or violent offenses or behavior? Is his language vile and infused with expletives, threats, and hostility?
3. Next thing: is he too eager? Does he push you to marry him having dated you only twice? Is he planning on having children on your first date? Does he immediately cast you in the role of the love of his life? Is he pressing you for exclusivity, instant intimacy, almost rapes you and acts jealous when you as much as cast a glance at another male? Does he inform you that, once you get hitched, you should abandon your studies or resign your job (forgo your personal autonomy)?
4. Does he respect your boundaries and privacy? Does he ignore your wishes (for instance, by choosing from the menu or selecting a movie without as much as consulting you)? Does he disrespect your boundaries and treats you as an object or an instrument of gratification (materializes on your doorstep unexpectedly or calls you often prior to your date)? Does he go through your personal belongings while waiting for you to get ready?
5. Does he control the situation and you compulsively? Does he insist to ride in his car, holds on to the car keys, the money, the theater tickets, and even your bag? Does he disapprove if you are away for too long (for instance when you go to the powder room)? Does he interrogate you when you return ("have you seen anyone interesting") - or make lewd "jokes" and remarks? Does he hint that, in future, you would need his permission to do things - even as innocuous as meeting a friend or visiting with your family?
6. Does he act in a patronizing and condescending manner and criticizes you often? Does he emphasize your minutest faults (devalues you) even as he exaggerates your talents, traits, and skills (idealizes you)? Is he wildly unrealistic in his expectations from you, from himself, from the budding relationship, and from life in general?
7. Does he tell you constantly that you "make him feel" good? Don't be impressed. Next thing, he may tell you that you "make" him feel bad, or that you make him feel violent, or that you "provoke" him. "Look what you made me do!" is an abuser's ubiquitous catchphrase.
8. Does he find sadistic sex exciting? Does he have fantasies of rape or pedophilia? Is he too forceful with you in and out of the sexual intercourse? Does he like hurting you physically or finds it amusing? Does he abuse you verbally - does he curse you, demeans you, calls you ugly or inappropriately diminutive names, or persistently criticizes you? Does he then switch to being saccharine and "loving", apologizes profusely and buys you gifts?
If you have answered "yes" to any of the above - stay away! He is an abuser.
-
Dear Lighter,
Thank you so much for bringing back that post... great stuff!
Sure wish I'd had that list before I hooked up with NPD-ex. Although a couple of his oddities did manage to float through my numbed senses, it really would have helped to see them printed up in black and white, so they couldn't so easily be brushed aside.
He did all of those things - consistently - except for the criticism (at first) and the revealing of sadistic sex fantasies.
Some stuff he saved for later :P
Thanks again! And I hope you're feeling better soon.
Carolyn
-
::nodding::
yup yup yup.... me too.
Lighter
-
Dear Lise,
I just saw your post. Sometimes my having the posts on a thread arranged from latest to oldest can get confusing. Anyhow, thanks for your thoughts!
And yes, I definitely do want to continue studying Martha Stout's pointers for dealing with these conscience-less predators.
You wrote:
Part of the urgency in reading The Sociopath Next Door is the moment when we suddenly recognize that someone we know, someone we worked for, or were involved with, or voted for, is a sociopath. But what do we do with that knowledge? To arm us against the sociopath, Dr. Stout teaches us to question authority, suspect flattery, and beware the pity play. Above all, she writes, when a sociopath is beckoning, do not join the game.
And I know from harsh experience that's alot easier said than done, when you're a people-pleasing, unassertive, unaware codependent like I was.
Here's another of my favorites of Ms. Stout's cautions, which elaborates on what you've said:
The best way to protect yourself from a sociopath is to avoid him, to refuse any kind of contact or communication.
The only truly effective method for dealing with a sociopath you have identified is to disallow him or her from your life altogether.
Sociopaths live completely outside of the social contract, and therefore to include them in relationships or other social arrangements is perilous.
Begin this exclusion of them in the context of your own relationships and social life.
You will not hurt anyone's feelings. Strange as it seems, and though they may try to pretend otherwise, sociopaths do not have any such feelings to hurt.
You may never be able to make your family and friends understand why you are avoiding a particular individual.
Sociopathy is surprisingly difficult to see, and harder to explain.
Avoid him/her anyway.If total avoidance is impossible, make plans to come as close as you can to the goal of total avoidance.
-
You may never be able to make your family and friends understand why you are avoiding a particular individual.
Sociopathy is surprisingly difficult to see, and harder to explain.
Avoid him/her anyway.If total avoidance is impossible, make plans to come as close as you can to the goal of total avoidance.
[/i][/b]
Beared reapeating. ::nod::
Light
-
I'd like to add one to look for:
Do the rules apply to everyone else and not him?????
When I first met my partner and started getting serious, he insisted I throw away my photo album with old boyfriends' pictures in it. He still has his.
Does he insist you never go to bed without resolving issues, but then when he's mad - he stomps off, slams the door and won't talk to you??
Ad infinitum.
Dandylife
-
I'd like to add one to look for:
Do the rules apply to everyone else and not him?????
When I first met my partner and started getting serious, he insisted I throw away my photo album with old boyfriends' pictures in it. He still has his.
Does he insist you never go to bed without resolving issues, but then when he's mad - he stomps off, slams the door and won't talk to you??
Ad infinitum.
Dandylife
Hi, Dandy,
Oh, I remember this one really well with NPD-ex... and I think it's a strong characteristic with borderline personalitty disordered individuals, as well.
I'm not sure about sociopaths, though.
Still have a long way to go with my reading, but I get the impression that sociopathic individuals are more likely to adhere to quite a strict superficial adherence to the rules....
that they want people to think that they're law-abiding citizens and show to all a mask of conformity,
all the while possessing a total lack of concern for whether or not they are violating those laws or the people around them.
Seems like it's their apparent conformity which fools so many people and allows them to swoop in under the radar and annhilate their victims.
I may be totally off base with that, but to me... this is, in great part, what sets the sociopath apart -
a complete lack of character along with a clever ability to hide that lack.
Carolyn
-
Ohh- I like this list. Dandy, your insight is right on the mark- it seems that the sociopathic takes a great deal of trouble to assume a mask of "humanity" and is therefore acutely aware of the rules of conduct, which must be learned and carefully put on as an actor learns a role in order to have the desired effect, rather than incorporated into their being. If a non-sociopath strays from the script, the sociopath is acutely aware.
Lighter-I know a doctor who is conducting research into the rare genetic disease from which he suffers. There are others of the Alexander Graham Bell/ Lorenzo's Oil type who study a specific disorder in order to help an afflicted loved one. Sometimes I lose interest in the N/Sociopath/Bipolar/etc field and its many scientific and pop psychology findings and ideas. Perhaps it is because I do not care much about the Bagworm except that he leaves me alone. But often I get factoid and llist fatigue and have a sense of dread when I try to read yet another book, article or pronouncement about Ns, etc. The field is so unscientific and populated with so many incredibly clueless types who use their dubvious credentials in a harmful or lazy manner, somewhat like those doctors in the last century, who measured skull sizes, etc and made pronouncements on a person's criminal predisposition on the basis of their "take" on the skull.
Your list is practical and certainly appears true from my experience, and should be printed on every girl's lunchbox!!
Love,
Changing
-
I can vouch for these things said: I had personal experience of living with one. Mine went a little more deeper then the list though.
Yes all what everyone has said applied and then, (mine was a criminal) a next door, clean cut, all American, all American job, CRIMINAL and no one knew.. he did not appear to be anything else. at first... for years...and years and years....
here is some things said when after caught and his reasoning.....
The crime committed was a victimless crime..... he shot off a sawed off shot gun into a ceiling so if it was not at someone there were not victims, although there were people in the place, terrified for their lives...
When there are drug dealers on the streets and driving nice cars, nice clothes, lots of money why shouldn't he get what he wants since he was a decent hard working guy and got nothing... (he made himself victim)
I was in danger and my child so he had to do what he did to protect us (again victim) and not true..
Then started a journal.. that was about how he portrayed himself and that he was not who people though he was.. he was evil..
That is all that I had seen and it was never completed or extended any further so I don't know what it was for or why he wrote it.
I can tell you this though. What I know and what everyone else knows is not the extent of things he has done. I really think he has done more and we only know what he got caught for.
He has no conscious. So when I say N I don't really know. I would think more P.
He went to jail but it is scary that he did come back out into society. I have no contact but I wonder who he has come across and what he has done to people unaware.
I did get a phone call 2 years ago from someone who was looking for him (probably a loan company) they would not reveal themselves and all they could tell me was he put me down as a contact person :shock: I hadn't seen him in many years so that is NUTS and disturbing. When his mother died my children's GM we did not attend. We have kept no contact because when I gave my address to family when I relocated they gave it to him. His family are good people they are just manipulated by him and that is the way I left it. We cut off ties.
Love
Deb
-
Hi Deb-
It is tremendous that you have escaped this man, and the chldren are free of that influence and the risk he poses. The betrayal that you felt at learning about his secret life must have been tremendous, and it is a credit to you that you have risen above the shock and trauma. How odd and disturbing that this man seems to remain unstable after all of these years, as evidenced by that phone call. I am so glad that you have made a new separate life for yourself and your children, and you should be proud of your accomplishment.
Love,
Changing
-
Hey Changing,
Well ya, I had lots of trauma when I learned and my Ex was revealed. I don't know if I felt betrayal though. Maybe in the beginning I did when I had no clue. After that I just felt, Icky, like I could not get enough showers like I wanted a shot of Novocaine to my brain that I had even encountered a person like that. I watched those stories on lifetime. Those are people I never met just heard about... and here I was Dealing with a Sociopath, Psychopath, whatever he was and that is a feeling that I probably cannot really describe and yes anyone can become Victim to them. There were so so many with my Ex and pretty much everyone.. until it got worse and bigger and more and darker and finally stopped at least in society for awhile.. but not all of them go to Jail or do the extent of what my ex did. Now that is scary. And he's out and probably more carefull then ever...with his seceret life. And although I forget about it sometimes I do always have somewhat of a guard up and never forget how nuts he is and wonder if he will ever try to contact my children. The only thing I could do and have done was to educate them.. on the illness.. disorder whatever he has and not make them hate him but be aware of him and danger that he is very sick and it is ok to stay detached, if that is ever to happen.
Dealing with these kinds of people? You don't. You can't. You can only become victim unless you are a trained professional and I don't think there is much they can do either. Just my opinion.
Love
Deb
-
Dear Debkor-
You are a formidable woman- what you have done is almost impossible to fathom, and your dedication to the best interests of your children , despite all of the pressures and losses, is commendable. There should be some sort of national honor, like the Purple Heart, for those citizens who have dealt with such dire situations and prevailed, for you have done all of us a service- as you say, anyone could be victimized. I hope that you have been nurtured and cared for and feel vindicated in the life that you have established today, and appreciate your sharing of actual first-hand experience and wisdom.
Love To You And Your Family,
Changing
-
Crucial Rule:
Do not join the game.
Intrigue is a sociopath's tool.
Resist the temptation to compete with a seductive sociopath, to outsmart him, psychoanalyze, or even banter with him.
In addition to reducing yourself to his level, you would be distracting yourself from what is really important, which is to protect yourself.
Deb, I am so sorry. I had no idea. Thank God y'all came through this as you have.
Needing to educate our children about being wary of their own biological father... I understand - and it stinks.
Are your kids grown now?
Love,
Carolyn
-
Hi Carolyn,
Yes they are 21 and 23 now. They grew up just fine and with total acceptance and non hatred of their dad shame or blame for what he did or was/became. I never made a big deal out of it. I was pretty honest and they knew he was a sick man. I also told them that the no contact was my decision and I was the one who would not let them talk to him or write anything that he did try to contact them when they were little. He would write I would read it. They couldn't read then and when I saw that he was trying to manipulate them through letters I stopped it totally. He spoke to them about self pity and things that children should have no concern of. I was totally honest and told them I did what I had to with their best interest in mind and if I was wrong then I was to blame not him. He did try. Eventually he just gave up since there was no response. I told them they could see him when they were old enough. They are detached and I can't say with love because they don't know him, with respect, maybe. They understand he is their father, mentally Ill, and that is about it. He loved them as much as he could love anyone and that was maybe not at all or very little.
I also forfeited child support and never went after him when he was out. I left sleeping dogs lie and in my case it was much better for then I'm sure he would have counter acted with visitation. So this is where it was a win win..
So that is how I dealt with one when I knew what I was dealing with and then not really... I didn't...
My experience was over 24 years ago. It was fast happening and fast ending. It's just a story now. It has no impact on me any more and it never had an impact on my children. I never spoke poorly about him to them just that he was very sick. Because he was.
I was just fortunate that he never sought to see them. And now they can handle their own they are grown. shew, made it through. They are curious at times but have no desire to seek him out at this time. I think they are afraid of what might show up or not.
Love
Deb
-
(((((((Deb))))))) I think now that I do remember part of this from before, but I'd forgotten. If so, I apologize.
It was similar with us, in that I had full physical and legal custody since the 3 children who are his were 12, 8, and 3.
He was allowed no contact with them except for letters/cards, but kept trying to push the limits... and he did the same thing with the self-pity routine, so I also stopped reading them or allowing them to know.
Now they're 21, 17, and 12... and I feel the same... whew, made it through! (almost)
Not anticipating any more issues with that, though. The legal system put him into his place.
There's still some remnant of ugh for me... but only when I get morbid and do something stupid like look for his photo online (which I've promised myself not to do again.)
Thanks for sharing... and I am so glad for you that it doesn't impact you and your children now.
Love,
Carolyn
-
Carolyn,
Well we did it. We made it. And now you are almost home free.. I have no doubt it will end with ease no more issues.
Thanks for sharing with me also. And it's good to know the legal system put your ex in his place. This is good read for someone that may be just taking that step.
And I was looking up a site and low and behold there was my ex (younger years) and your Ugh is my Ewww!
Love
Deb
-
I was looking up things on sociopaths and look what I found. This was a response to what they said about the disorder.
I'm a sociopath. I am being completely honest when I say this. I'll agree that yes, I lie often and I do "charm" with a fake facade perhaps for selfish reasons. Yet I do not like the fact that most articles portray a person with this "condition" like they do. I don't drain people's bank accounts or abuse them. Yes I feel a utter lack of empathy for people, but it does not insure that just because I could not care less that I'll harm them. You put negative connotations about a problem that I can but help but have. I live my life the way I want to and that doesn't involve doing stupid things that could ruin my lifestyle. :shock: :shock: :shock: :shock:
I want to say are they for real and then have to think they most probably are:
I lie often and do charm with a fake facade for selfish reasons but I don't drain bank accounts(didn't say take anything) or abuse them (abuse what the money, the people, what?}but could care less about people but won't harm them just lie and charm eh? No harm done. I live my life the way I want and it doesn't involve Stupid things that could ruin my life style.. Say what?
INTERPERTER!! :roll:
And what is this supposed to mean.
You put negative connotations about a problem that I can but help but have
Love
Deb
-
Deb... is your story somewhere on the board?
Lighter
-
Hey Light,
Yeah it's here somewhere. I think it was on a thread that Sea had asked, memory failing me on exact, asking lurkers to come forward or something like that and post thier stories. I don't really remember the exact title.
Love
Deb
-
Deb, I hope that neither one of us ever runs across them again. I sure won't go looking! It was a sort of morbid curiousity that got the better of me, but took a few long days to recover from the repercussions, so I learned my lesson.
Yes, we made it! And I do feel free... okay, mostly so.
Used to beat myself up for taking so long to feel absolutely purged of it... but I've finally come to accept that it'll take however long it takes and I can still be okay with that.
Those quotes are very revealing... and chilling.
That one line - You put negative connotations about a problem that I can but help but have
could be a direct quote from NPD-ex, only he'd conclude it with
.... and if you would only offer me a little more carrot than stick...
Yeah, I suspect he was alot more than just N (as if that's not enough).
Oh, and the more I think on it, I'm pretty sure that we did talk before about this, at least briefly...
but I'm so glad it came up again now. Thanks again, Deb. Take good care!
Love,
Carolyn
-
Right now I'm facinated with reading other INFP's journeys..... but yours is next on my list and I'll find it.
Maybe Izzy will help... she good at looking things up.
Did your quick NC with ex come bc of his incarceration?
Lighter
-
Light,
Yes it was light. It was so much easier to work through things when he was not able to be around. I mean it was different when the NC was set and not of my choice at the time. Even if I had done the NC I think it would have been and up and down for a lot longer then it was. It almost became a Quest for me to get to the bottom of things. The Gaslighting made me crazy. Make sure I was right on wth my thinking. Oh hell, I was so way off, with it. I thought in the begining maybe he had a G/F or G/F's and that was his seceret life. I won't rule that out that it was not part of it. Oh and it took a long time to Hit Home of how nuts he was how criminal he was. I stll couldn't wrap my mind around someone is just that Sick that evil and I'm Smack Dab right in the middle of Nutsville. And he had phone calls to me but the distance helped me put that to rest too.
Took awhile Light even with no contact. To be real..once I stopped all contact, phone, cards, letters... it was all real..and scary..and I felt slimed.
Love
Deb
-
Deb... your post dropped my stomach, made it burn and reminded me of how hard it is to 'remain real.'
When we have other people dismissing our perceptions and the things we've already figure out.... making us doubt them over and over.... it's almost impossible to move through it and beyond.
NC is absolutely necessary to settle our knowledge and accept it, internalize it.
I know that doesn't maken a lot of sense but I wanted to share that.
As far as NC with the innoncent people, who make us doubt bc they don't understand.... NC with their opinions?
How does that work?
Lighter
-
hi Deb and lighter,
I see you have found a common ground. Keep talking!
Deb: Do you have any idea when you posted your story. I read this post earlier and began a search of your posts (very good posts) but for your story-- do you have a date range? or would there be a word, just one word or phrase, that no one else would use that can be put into Search?
odd, like piano, quadrilateral, Antarctica, Paul Newman, bungie jumping?
I'm trying.............
Love
IZzy
-
Oh... thanks for doing that Izzy: )
Lighter
-
Debkor-
Thank you for your honest and brave sharing of your experience- it helps me so much and I am sure others as well.
Love ,
Changing
-
Light,
I think, light, when I was questioning and investigating the seceret *life* which I was not sure of what it was, thought women, drug abuse, drug dealing, all three, danger, well maybe I'm over reacting to danger, I was NOT, I looked for the doubts.
The innocent people with thier doubts were truly that and ment me no harm. They really did not know, as I did not, but wanted to squash my danger feelings wanted thier doubts I wanted to Doubtttt.. so bad. The others that had no doubt not exaxtly knowing what was going on, I blew off, I resisted..
I remember talking with my sister and discussing sociopath and I instanly got the ahhhh!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! not me.......... can't be.......that is not something I married.........where are my Doubts!!!!!!!!!!!
I was harder on the people with no doubt then the ones with them. I kept contact with all. And yes I can see how they had them. You have to be 24/7 with a person to know. I mean really know it's beyond your everyday problems and a very Dangerous Person.
I am sure that there are some that still have them. Yes they know what has taken place and the secerets are out but I think that people do doubt most probably that it's over, it's fixed, it's changed and life is good for him now.. A miracle, A cure. I know this because when his sister called here to say her mother was dying she said, ex, looks really good and doing really well.
Me, I'm real, I know he is dangerous and will always be.... that I do not doubt... when it kicks in again... one never knows but I do not doubt it. .. just when, with who, and how bad...
The No contact with family members of his kind of just fell into place. It just happened. And that is alright. They are good people and we pretty just went our own ways for reasons and then for no reason.
I'll tell you one part that is very funny now but show you how I so wanted to say in Doubt back then.
In my car when I had it one night, my sister, for some reason opened my glove compartment and found a mustache and make up, I reached into the back seat found his duffel bag felt it and said OMG please don't let this be a gun and sure as hell was, I said to my sister, Do you think he has a GF? WTF? I wanted to doubt anything else. We laugh now over that.
But I wanted doubts even with evidence on my Lap of Danger.... It was so creepy and I wanted to be brain dead to this that I had to face and deal with. A freak of nature. Something missing. No concious. And I married it.
And oh hell, Light, although it was over it took about a full four years to purge it out. totally.. and accept that there are just some really sick people that will never be cured and they are not just who you read about or watch on TV they can be sleeping right next to you.
Love
Deb
-
Oh, Deb.... that part about the mustache and gun...
I laughed too but....
yikes and I've done the same sorts of things.
We're such nice people who want to be in denial....
or....
want reality to not be so dire and dangerous, ya know?
Human nature to do that.
I'm going to read your story right now....
thanks thanks for finding it: )
Lighter
-
Oh My Goodness! deb and lighter
It's so difficult for ME to believe and I didn't experience it, but I know that feeling of being there and everything is so unreal because it is so foreign to your life.
Isn't it amazing the strength that you find, when it's needed?
I agree all women are stronger.
There was a woman, not on this board, who married a bigamist. As the story unfolded, he had married 7 times and on two occasions had remarried without divorcing.
When they were dating, her sister saw his picture on TV on another matter.
The long and short of it is that she was invited to be on the Oprah show. I watched and had I not known the real truth I might have thought the story was 'nothing', as so much was changed, i.e. NPD or P or S whatever, were not used, in case of legal action.
Dr. Phil operates the same way. It's not for the truth it is for entertainment!
Take good care, you two
xx
Izzy
Still have the PTSD?
-
Hey Iz,
but I know that feeling of being there and everything is so unreal because it is so foreign to your life.
Exactly.
PS
And I miss ya when your not around Iz.
Love
Deb
-
Lighter-
You have done so much to help me escape my circumstances, and have shown me consistent understanding when the system and so many involved in the process were dismissive or worse. This made such a difference to me. The majority of the things right that I done in my case were suggested or modeled by generous people here- the DV group, the financial items, etc. I am sorry that you didn't have the same guidance and help for your own situation, and am glad that Debkor is here with her unique experience , goodwill and sharing.
Hope you are well and know that you are loved and supported.
Changing
-
(((Changing and Deb)))
I deleated some of my posts on this thread.
Lighter
-
Light/Changing,
Me too. Good idea. You guys know where to find it the original..
Love Deb
-
Dear Deb and Lighter,
Just wanted to let you both know how much I appreciate you both. I did read all of your story ((((((((Deb)))))))) and it left me aghast.
With NPD and socio/psycho-paths... anything is, indeed, possible.
I hate to think of anyone with malicious intent stumbling upon your stories here on this so obvious thread and it's probably a very good idea to keep specific details to a minumum.
Just please remain safe.
Love,
Carolyn
-
Another of Martha Stout's rules for dealing (or rather not dealing) with a Sociopath:
Do not try to redeem the unredeemable.
Second (third, fourth, and fifth) chances are for people who possess conscience.
If you are dealing with a person who has no conscience, know how to swallow hard and cut your losses.
At some point, most of us need to learn the important if disappointing life lesson that, no matter how good our intentions, we cannot control the behavior
- let alone the character structures - of other people.
Learn this fact of human life, and avoid the irony of getting caught up in the same ambition he has = to control.
If you do not desire control, but instead want to help people, then help only those who truly want to be helped.
I think you will find this does not include the person who has no conscience.
The sociopath's behavior is not your fault, not in any way whatsoever.
It is also not your mission.
Your mission is your own life.
This is what I needed to know over 20 years ago.
Carolyn
-
If you do not desire control, but instead want to help people, then help only those who truly want to be helped.
Carolyn
I remember taking a communications course at a nearby University.
I was young, maybe 20yo.
There were a few women at work just hammering on me and I wanted to know what was my part and how to solve it.
One thing I remember learning there....
was....
"Help is the sunny side of control."
Quite the realization, for me.
And.... I think it's very difficult to give up on loved ones, esp if we share children and lives and keep losing focus of the BIG SOCIOPATH picture bc it's so awful, so terrible so horrible that we're unable to grasp the true scope of that reality.
I've never experienced anything like it before in my life.
The confusion and doubt and fear that creates an inhospitable environment for focusing.
Once focus is managed.... it keeps going in and out of focus.
It's true......
where there's terrible confusion, IME.....
look around.....
there's someone without a consience nearby.....
trying to look very innocent......
and victimized.
A phenomenon we should be educate our children about, on some level, IMO.
Lighter
-
It's true......
where there's terrible confusion, IME.....
look around.....
there's someone without a consience nearby.....
trying to look very innocent......
and victimized.
(((((((Lighter)))))))) I agree.
And I'm so sorry for all you've been through.
Until one has been caught in the web, it's too bizarre for belief, I guess... that a person can be so calculatingly selfish and utterly uncaring re: the welfare of others, including his own children.
I've seen it firsthand and there is nothing comparable.
My childrens' dad could not have exercised his perversion within our household if he had a conscience.
To this day, he has never once admitted that it was all his responsibility. He is a victim, in his own eyes.
So when some self-professed expert declares that "he's a good person who's done bad things",
I'd like to spit in his eye.
Hogwash.
Carolyn
-
Thank you, Carolyn and Lighter.
You make good points and I am seriously taking them to heart.
Thank you so much.
CB
-
Those comments weren't meant for you CB.
Not from my end.
I've learned a tremendous lot from your handling of difficult words on the board.
Please..... take that to heart.
You're helping me now, more than you know.
Lighter
-
Those comments weren't meant for you CB.
Not from my end.
Not from me, either, CB.
No connection whatsoever.
Carolyn
-
Hi Carolyn,
Thank you and I appreciate you also. I am safe now and hope I don't ever run into someone like him again or wise enough to trust if it don't feel right then it's not..
Light,
And.... I think it's very difficult to give up on loved ones, esp if we share children and lives and keep losing focus of the BIG SOCIOPATH picture bc it's so awful, so terrible so horrible that we're unable to grasp the true scope of that reality.
I've never experienced anything like it before in my life.
The confusion and doubt and fear that creates an inhospitable environment for focusing.
Once focus is managed.... it keeps going in and out of focus.
It's true......
where there's terrible confusion, IME.....
look around.....
there's someone without a consience nearby.....
trying to look very innocent......
and victimized.
A phenomenon we should be educate our children about, on some level, IMO.
And I cannot agree with you more. Same words and thoughts, if they, came right out of my mouth and my mind.. I hope to God that many can not relate to this but I know it's very true that many can..
Love
Deb
-
::sigh::
I'm so tired....
so so tired, Deb.
I don't want my girls to learn this the hard way, any more than I want newcomers to learn the hard way here.
Just have to teach them well....
and have faith.
Must to bed, go.
Nite
Lighter
-
There's so much wisdom in the Bible, in Proverbs... about handling fools, deceivers, flatterers.
I think it's a great resource for teaching our kids.
And this poem is pretty effective, too.
The Spider and The Fly
written by Mary Howitt
"Will you walk into my parlor?" said the spider to the fly;
"'Tis the prettiest little parlor that ever you may spy.
The way into my parlor is up a winding stair,
And I have many curious things to show when you are there."
"Oh no, no," said the little fly; "to ask me is in vain,
For who goes up your winding stair can ne'er come down again."
"I'm sure you must be weary, dear, with soaring up so high.
Well you rest upon my little bed?" said the spider to the fly.
"There are pretty curtains drawn around; the sheets are fine and thin,
And if you like to rest a while, I'll snugly tuck you in!"
"Oh no, no," said the little fly, "for I've often heard it said,
They never, never wake again who sleep upon your bed!"
Said the cunning spider to the fly: "Dear friend, what can I do
To prove the warm affection I've always felt for you?
I have within my pantry good store of all that's nice;
I'm sure you're very welcome - will you please to take a slice?
"Oh no, no," said the little fly; "kind sir, that cannot be:
I've heard what's in your pantry, and I do not wish to see!"
"Sweet creature!" said the spider, "you're witty and you're wise;
How handsome are your gauzy wings; how brilliant are your eyes!
I have a little looking-glass upon my parlor shelf;
If you'd step in one moment, dear, you shall behold yourself."
"I thank you, gentle sir," she said, "for what you're pleased to say,
And, bidding you good morning now, I'll call another day."
The spider turned him round about, and went into his den,
For well he knew the silly fly would soon come back again:
So he wove a subtle web in a little corner sly,
And set his table ready to dine upon the fly;
Then came out to his door again and merrily did sing:
"Come hither, hither, pretty fly, with pearl and silver wing;
Your robes are green and purple; there's a crest upon your head;
Your eyes are like diamond bright, but mine are dull as lead!"
Alas, alas! how very soon this silly little fly,
Hearing his wily, flattering words, came slowly flitting by;
With buzzing wings she hung aloft, then near and nearer grew,
Thinking only of her brilliant eyes and green and purple hue,
Thinking only of her crested head. Poor, foolish thing! at last
Up jumped the cunning spider, and fiercely held her fast;
He dragged her up his winding stair, into the dismal den -
Within his little parlor - but she ne'er came out again!
And now, dear little children, who may this story read,
To idle, silly flattering words I pray you ne'er give heed;
Unto an evil counselor close heart and ear and eye,
And take a lesson from this tale of the spider and the fly.
-
Vindictiveness
Sociopaths are by nature extremely vindictive! Vindictiveness comes from the power/dominance system in our brains. Scientific studies show that sociopathic people derive great pleasure from revenge. Revenge is a very primitive emotion that evolved to ensure enforcement of social reciprocity. It evolved before the capacity for love. We know this because of studies of chimpanzees. Chimpanzees are very vindictive and vengeful when a comrade fails to reciprocate, and their capacity for love has not evolved much. It is only the threat of revenge that induces chimpanzees to cooperate with each other, because they do not have love bonds that motivate cooperation. When a chimpanzee shares his food, he does not likely get a warm fuzzy feeling inside, instead he knows that others will later do the same for him. If others fail to reciprocate, revenge is always taken.
Thankfully most humans receive a double reward when they cooperate with each other and a double punishment when they fail to cooperate. The double reward is the inherent pleasure in knowing we did a good for someone else, and the thought that good might someday be reciprocated. The double punishment is the guilt over harming someone and the fear that the harm will be reciprocated. Please hear me, sociopaths are like chimpanzees. They do not feel good when they do good for someone, they thus expect immediate reciprocity. They therefore feel it is necessary to get revenge in order to reduce the likelihood of future attacks on their status, power and possessions.
This is why prison is an occupational hazard for them. They also do not comprehend the guilt other people feel. This is why it is important to them to mete out huge punishments toward everyone who has offended them.
When you have to deal with sociopaths, be ever mindful that these individuals are devoid of pleasure from goodness and devoid of guilt over evil. Although they take advantage of other’s emotions, they have it in their minds that the rest of the human race is like them. They therefore feel it is necessary to get revenge in order to reduce the likelihood of future attacks on their status, power and possessions.
I always compared my ex to a monster... and he was a Chimp!! [
Love
Deb
-
Wow, Deb.
I always understand that sociopaths don't feel guilt - lack of conscience and all -
but never considered the flip side of that coin... that they don't experience the positive reinforcement of good feelings for having pleased another!
This makes so much sense... and explains why it always feels like the Chimp is keeping score!
Life is just one ongoing power struggle/ competition to this person without the soul to place value of any sort on the wellbeing of others.
What an isolated, miserable, vapid existence!!
Carolyn