Voicelessness and Emotional Survival Message Board
Voicelessness and Emotional Survival => Voicelessness and Emotional Survival Message Board => Topic started by: phoenix on August 24, 2004, 10:20:29 AM
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bye
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Hi Phoenix,
Thanks for taking the time to post all this information. It is wise not to invest too much of oneself into anything Internet, so this is a good reminder. Much of this seems like common sense but there were a few things I hadn't considered.
Also, I would like to add that it takes as much discipline to ignore trolls as it does to perfect trolling skills. Trolls do appear here once in a while and happily they go away if ignored. I should hope we would be quicker to spot trollish behavior since we grew up with trolls. :)
See ya, Seeker
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Thanks Phoenix for this post
:)
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I've been away, sorry I missed your article Phoenix. Sounds like it would have made good reading.
bobbie
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I had a good read and copied one of the links so I could read further. It's interesting stuff. Hope you don't mind me quoting the link for you.
http://www.teamtechnology.co.uk/troll.htm
I have noticed this sort of manipulation sometimes on other sites I visit and it's so sad to see the disintegration of friendships it can cause.
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imagine that ..... cyber trolls. It's sort of funny. I had thought about it before but had not put the troll word connection to it. I still thought a troll was a little demon living under mushrooms or crawling out of the toilet.
If I may be so bold, I think Phoenix was talking about some subtle stuff she thinks has been going on here, perhaps a troll with a PhD? Way more clever than the "hey, me & pappy g'wan mosey down the road." No matter, it's all cyber, none of us are next door or on the phone -- the fun stops when we don't let their jollies cause us harm. I have thought about this before (in the early chatroom days) when men would pretend to be women and lies about ages (I am sure it is still going on) -- who is to say who is who and what. I have felt it was/is/would be embarrassing to respond with your heart to someone only to find out that person might be snickering somewhere in a dirty room with greasy hair and picking their nose. (Ain't I graphic?) But, so what -- when you respond or make a post, it is coming from you and unless you have intentions of bringing some of us into your living room, the weirdos getting their rocks off cannot really hurt us. Unless they show up uninvited, then the tables might turn. It's just that it feels rather unclean somehow. Like I said before, after dealing with the NQueenmother a cyber boogieman is a cakewalk and there is so much left to do in this life and not enough time to complete it all.
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Like I said before, after dealing with the NQueenmother a cyber boogieman is a cakewalk and there is so much left to do in this life and not enough time to complete it all.
Ditto to that, I say. One's own flesh and blood mother as the :twisted: troll in your life is really hard for someone to upstage.
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bumpers
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bump again
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after dealing with the NQueenmother a cyber boogieman is a cakewalk
I love that phrase, DG! And Moonflower, you made such a great post. There's a lot of good sense and positivity there.
I just wonder if this IS supposed to be a Sanctuary. Is it?
Do we find a way of surviving emotionally if 'all' we've got is a Sanctuary?
A Sanctuary doesn't help us deal with these troll types in our real lives, does it?
'Ignoring' them might get us out from under, but how many other situations and people replicating the original pain will it take until we have nothing left and nowhere left to go in our lives where there isn't a troll out to destroy us - unless we just stay under the bedclothes, in safe situations, not spreading our wings for fear of being gunned down, not being free to be ourselves in all our many hues because we don't have the freedom of knowing we will always be safe and strong IN SPITE OF the trolls.
If we try to pretend that this is or should be a sanctuary, then aren't we just hiding under the bedclothes?
I'm prepared to be a seagull (if you've read those posts!); I'm not prepared to be an ostrich.
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Hi Firebird,
I am a member - not disclosing my name at the moment.
So do you propose we all start speaking our minds as we read posts that enrage us? This will become a free for all. As I have read the trash that's been posted lately, I've had many thoughts and want so badly to respond but I am a mature person and I've learned when to speak out and when to keep quiet.
The behavior that seperates adults from children and immature adults is the the ability to keep it shut when it is not in anyone's best interest to enrage others.
This board is public so when a poster takes bullyish jabs at individuals, they are exposing everyone to their bullying, whether they want to admit it or not.
Those of us watching from the sidelines feel like we are out on the playground watching a fight and the teacher will not break it up. Those fighting are destroying our recess, and we are powerless against them. We are adults and should not be acting like this. This board is a good place to learn appropriate responses.
We can all start behaving as some of these threads look and we will be able to blow off steam and practice our non cyber responses to Ns in our lives but I think this will only do more damage.
Victims, survivors, what ever one wants to call themself, have already suffered so much pain from behavior like is demonstrated here that most will tend to back off for fear of being hurt. We are learning to create boundaries and use them appropriately, but opening this board up to allow the behavior that has gone on for the past few days is damaging to the integrety of the board and to those of us trying to learn "New" behaviors.
I do not think this should be a sanctuary, but I think boundaries should be respected. If someone posts something and gets blasted for it they should be able to argue their case. But the posts that are hurtful just for the sake of being hurtful are damaging and should not be allowed. It is easy to pick those out from the rest.
We all know that some people are posting responses that they would never say to one's face. Please stop bullying.
If a poster asks a responder to back off, that should be respected.
I guess what I am trying to say is use the golden rule - do unto others...
and be respectful. If a poster can't abide by those rules - then get the heck out of here - you are not welcome! I am not refering to you, Firebird, when I say get out. I am referring to anyone who does not want to be respectful.
See, the reason I wrote that last sentence is because I am so trained to be taken the wrong way. I know there are those reading this that will want to jump on that sentence because they refuse to take the entire paragraph into context. They will pick out what they want to use in an argument and ignore the rest. I beg anyone thinking this way to not do it. It isn't productive or entertaining.
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I agree with you guest, wholeheartedly.
I also have to admit that I enjoyed the feeling of sanctuary that used to exist on this board. People were spoken to in kind respectful ways.
It feels like some (one, two?) people are just spoiling for a fight, just wanting to provoke. There are plenty of boards where you can let it all out and get a really good fight back.
I think it's time for the administrators to step in.
Les
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More trolling info...
http://brawl-hall.com/pages/trolls.php
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Is there a distinction between defending ones self from being sandbagged, and being seen as a bully when they are standing up for themself? Or does one just leave quietly to not upset everyone else- letting the other party get away with it, drive me out? I guess it is easy to think how one should act if you aren’t in my place.
If a child is being pounded in the bushes by the school bully, should that child cry out and fight back, or should that child just take it so as not to disturb everyone else’s recess?
I worked at a restaurant where the bosses refused to handle conflicts amongst the employees- they wanted us to work it out ourselves. We had a bus boy that thought himself a little Romeo- and whatever waitress he had a crush on the moment was subjected to his romantic gestures. You hand him a dish and along with taking the dish, he’d make sure to fondle your hand. Yuck. We waitresses constantly talked to our boss about it, but to no avail. After one particular long night, my arms loaded with dirty dishes, heading for the dishwasher, the little busboy playfully bumped me, throwing me off balance, and I almost fell to the floor. I shrieked in out rage. I was tired, and so sick of this ongoing harassment, and now at the end of the night, I’d had enough. I let him have it in the back room. The next day my boss voiced –to my co-workers, but not me - how shocked she was at my outburst. She couldn’t believe I would yell. Never, ever have I lost my cool on the floor, and if anyone’s done this work, they know that is self discipline. It was ok for this busboy to continue his harassment to the point of my safety, but for me to take action on my behalf, that was distasteful.
So what is adult and what is childish? For me to not have spoken my mind, would have been for me to be in my child state. My adult said, “Go fight for yourself. Stick up for yourself.”
And I know that there are those here that unless they are in my shoes will never understand this.
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Phoenix - it's true, unless we were in your shoes we would never understand. I definitely don't understand the ways you were hurt and why the battle rages on. In this format with so many guests and different players with different names it's impossible to keep score.
Well, I think I need to take a break from the board for awhile. Just a suggestion Phoenix - perhaps if you took a break as well whoever has been tormenting you will just fade away.
Les
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You know, Les. I don't know about Phoenix, But I think I will take a break for a while. But I'm thinking about you. To the rest:
See all of you cats and kittens later!!!! :lol:
MM
Just food for thought. Dr. Grossman asnwers questions directed at him specifically.
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Hi Phoenix,
Well,I'm curious. What happened to the busboy? Did he get the message? Did the waitresses band together and corner this guy to knock it off? I hope so.
Phoenix describes a very common dynamic that drives me crazy: the fact that someone can provoke and provoke when other eyes are not watching, but sure enough, if you fight back openly and air it out, you're the problem. You have embarrassed everyone. Made other people uncomfortable. And you are perceived as the persecutor while you are really the victim.
You are right, Phoenix, that it was your boss's responsibility to make sure you all had a safe place to work. But finding another busboy would be a chore. People always take the path of least work, WIIFM approach. I hate that, but there it is.
I can understand you not wanting this obnoxious poster to stay, but they feed off the drama. It's more gasoline for their engine and they LOVE it. Once you unplug, they attach to another host animal. I find my peace by simply IGNORING these people. I still like this board and I am in control of which posts I respond to and which I don't. I wish Miss Child Molester Lover/Forgiver/SuckerUpper Because I Live in a Different and Superior Reality (and need his Money/Love/Companionship/Body and Feel So Sorry for You All would leave too (there, I've admitted some of my anger :? ) but I can't make her.
As for the playground analogy, I would come over to the victim and help wash her up and I wouldn't even care if she started the fight if I knew she was dealing with a stupid arrogant bully. We all know the bully reputation and I DO NOT agree that the victim is to blame if they get into a tussle. People who "out" a bully know they are going to take some heat. It's time for the heat to cool down now everyone.
Peace Phoenix. A friend.
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I'm here, and feeling so sad about the way things are going on this board. This group has made such a positive impact on my life, and I find that even when I backslide into dark moments because of the NMom, I don't stay there as long. Knowing that I have found those of you who understand has made a huge difference, for I am growing stronger day by day.
Phoenix, so sorry to hear about the busboy incident. We believe you, and we understand. Isn't it healing to be able to share it with others who care, and we do....
I have been hesitant to post lately, as well. I have been reading, and feeling very upset inside for those of us who have been hurt by careless comments. I have been here, but hiding.
And the saddest thing is that I will miss the voices of the 'friends' I have come to trust.
Dr. G - is there something you can do to rescue the board? Perhaps insist on only allowing Members to Post? Anything?! How can I continue to grow without you all??!! I just found you, and don't want to lose you now....
~onlyme
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Well,I'm curious. What happened to the busboy? Did he get the message? Did the waitresses band together and corner this guy to knock it off? I hope so.
Of course not! He stopped working my tables. Or did them minimally and put the burden on the other busboy. And of course, me.
Only Me- Hang in there, babe. If I can at this point, so can you. Wade through it, it will end. Phoenix
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Absolutely, phoenix. That's the point I was trying to make.
Guest with a name - I'd like to respond to your post - no conflict intended but I think I have a different viewpoint. I appreciate you having been candid.
So do you propose we all start speaking our minds as we read posts that enrage us?
I don't think I have a solution in mind - just trying to define the problem.
The behavior that seperates adults from children and immature adults is the the ability to keep it shut when it is not in anyone's best interest to enrage others.
I'm not sure that these definitions are accurate. It's the frightened child (hugs) who 'keeps it shut when it's not in anyone's best interest to enrage others'. You're hiding under the bedclothes hoping it will all go away.
This board is public so when a poster takes bullyish jabs at individuals, they are exposing everyone to their bullying, whether they want to admit it or not.
True...and so we are all experiencing being bullied and what it's like to bully. Is that what you mean?
Those of us watching from the sidelines feel like we are out on the playground watching a fight and the teacher will not break it up.
Why are you waiting for an authority figure to break it up? Where are YOU in all this? Where is the victim?? Does anybody care about the victim?
Those fighting are destroying our recess, .
Now you're referring to the victim as someone who is fighting. You are blaming the victim for fighting??? The bullying is an irritation, spoiling your FUN? No, you don't mean that. But it's a nuisance, not your business, 'not in my backyard'. Yup, I've got a little bit of outrage stirring in my stomach here.
and we are powerless against them
No, you're not!! Why do you think you are powerless?
We are adults and should not be acting like this. This board is a good place to learn appropriate responses.
Yes, so...what are appropriate responses?? What is an effective response which will help support the victim, help the victim find new empowering behaviours, stop the bullying? If you feel that you are a victim of the bullying just by 'viewing' it - what will be empowering for YOU, too.
We can all start behaving as some of these threads look and we will be able to blow off steam and practice our non cyber responses to Ns in our lives but I think this will only do more damage.
I feel there's an important issue in what you say here which may help me understand better where you are coming from on this issue. Are you suggesting that the bullying is the solution or the problem? Is the N in your life a bully? I'll assume so. And you see people being bullied here. But the solution you see is to take the bullying and do that to the Ns in our lives in order to subdue them. Is that what you see in these 'fights'?
You see, I'm experiencing some confusion here about 'who's the bully'. And I can't quite get my head around it. You seem to identify more with the bully than the bullied. Is that what it is?? I'm not suggesting that you are a bully or an N - just that there seems to be some confusion.
Victims, survivors, what ever one wants to call themself
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I see that confusion continued in that statement - 'whatever one wants to call THEMSELF'. Isn't it 'us'. Isn't it 'ourselves'??? I AM the victim. YOU ARE the victim, nameless guest. WE ARE the victims of these Ns and bullies.
have already suffered so much pain from behavior like is demonstrated here that most will tend to back off for fear of being hurt.
Yes. Back off = Hiding under the bedclothes. And isn't that which gives the bully their power?? We are afraid of being hurt. Hurt in what way? I'm afraid of not being able to cope. I'm afriad of being too afraid to speak. I'm afraid that I'll lose my voice - again. I'm afraid of being silenced. I'm afraid of the pain in my stomach. Gut-wrenching fear. I am afraid of being driven away. All because of fear. Am i afraid of the bullies. Or am I afraid of my own rage??? Am I afraid that I'll have to become a bully to beat a bully and that's what the bullies REALLY want??? I'm in hiding so they can't bully me into becoming a bully. Actually I want to beat teh shit out of the bullies. But I can't because then I'd be a bully. But I'm too proud to be a victim. No win, no escape, anger turned inwards. And we all know where that takes us... There HAS to be a third way...
But the posts that are hurtful just for the sake of being hurtful are damaging and should not be allowed. It is easy to pick those out from the rest.
I'm not entirely sure it's that easy to see. the victim may not be able to see. I'm not sure that the people watching can always tell the difference and it's possible that what I, as a victim, see as bullying, the bully may not see that way at all and may regard themselves as a victim. I'm not arguing for arguing's sake. I believe that to be true.
I guess what I am trying to say is use the golden rule - do unto others...
That's a rule I learned a long time ago is actually disrespectful to our differences. I'm not being glib.
See, the reason I wrote that last sentence is because I am so trained to be taken the wrong way.
I understand - but it's also respectful to others to ensure that your meaning is clear. There's no harm in that. In fact, it's a good idea. I'm glad that you clarified your meaning in that sentence. Thank you. It helped me understand you.
Perhaps we get so used to being taken the wrong way (by paranoid parents?) that we gave up even trying to be understood - ???
Thanks for sharing your thoughts, nameless guest. I'll be pleased to make your named acquaintance one day.
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Sorry - just to clarify and save any confusion, I was responding to the post phoenix made at the end of the last page - lots of posts have been made while I was thinking about the post directed at Firebird on that page.
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Hi Firebird,
I think we have established a healthy discussion and I would like to continue it.
Unfortunately, when we write words, as opposed to saying them with a voice, they do not always come out the way the writer means them. There's nothing that can fix that, it is what it is. We are all learning better ways to reveal our thoughts and I believe this board helps so much. That is why I have stayed. I want to learn more.
I'm not sure that these definitions are accurate. It's the frightened child (hugs) who 'keeps it shut when it's not in anyone's best interest to enrage others'. You're hiding under the bedclothes hoping it will all go away.
I am not hiding, I too have been hurt here and do not wish to continue some of the discussions that attacked. It stops when the attacked can't attack you by name anymore.
Why are you waiting for an authority figure to break it up? Where are YOU in all this? Where is the victim?? Does anybody care about the victim?
OK, I admit I thought I had a good example, but didn't think it through to the magnitude with which you disected it. I know what it's like to be a victim, too much... :cry:
I mentioned an authority to break it up simply because there is no way any of us can stop someone from attacking over and over again. Most message boards have moderators that would have stopped this long ago, but there doesn't appear to be one monitoring this board. Therefore we are ALL at the mercy of anyone who wishes to come to this site and attack.
Now you're referring to the victim as someone who is fighting. You are blaming the victim for fighting??? The bullying is an irritation, spoiling your FUN? No, you don't mean that. But it's a nuisance, not your business, 'not in my backyard'. Yup, I've got a little bit of outrage stirring in my stomach here.
Once again, didn't think through the process in which this has been disected. No, the person getting beat up is not ruining our time. The bully is at fault and everyone standing on the sidelines has the opportunity to step in, but we have all learned there are consequences to our actions. We have been assaulted for things not our fault too many times, we are many times afraid to step in when we know either we have no chance or we are too afraid of facing the consequences.
OK, I'm should have never said "We" - I will replace all references to "We" with "I" and "Me". Sorry to have included anyone but myself. I can only speak for myself. I have been raised to follow the rules and Yes I am afriad to break the rules because I have been punished for too many things that I didn't do. I haven't shaken off my history yet.
Now to clarify my stand on the bully issue:
I got fired from a teaching job because my child was being bullied unmercifully at our school. I begged for the administrator and staff to step in and help. I did everything I could by following the rules. Then I got angry because the staff wanted my son to turn the other cheek. I called acouple moms and asked them to speak to their children who were beating up on my son. By the way, he was up against a group of girls and refused to hit back because he did not want to hit a girl. The parents told the administrator their little girls would never do such a thing and the board fired me for standing up for my child instead of the school. I was told I could not be a parent and a teacher at the same time - I had to ignore my children while teaching there.
I got beat up in 5th grade because I was little. 5 girls surrounded me and beat the crap out of me. No one stopped them, my parents beat me when I got home because they said I must have started it. I was not allowed to hit back. I know bullying. These are only 2 minor situations. I have more to share but will not go on.
I have rage like you wouldn't believe, but I stop before I hurt an innocent bystander. I do not know who I am writing to. It's not worth hurting an innocent person just to express my rage. I have learned to walk away and get my rage out in more productive ways - exercise, games, working hard, and other means.
I see that confusion continued in that statement - 'whatever one wants to call THEMSELF'. Isn't it 'us'. Isn't it 'ourselves'??? I AM the victim. YOU ARE the victim, nameless guest. WE ARE the victims of these Ns and bullies.
I am not calling myself a victim or survivor. It would empower the Ns in my life way too much. Once again, this was disected too much. I am simply living and moving on. I can't call it anything more than that. But I respect anyone who is a victim or survivor. I just used my own lingo and didn't mean to offend anyone.
I will not glorify the posters enough to quote some of the things that were written but they were attacking and fighting words. If these posts were said to ones face, there would be fists going to town. But I doubt very seriously any of us would act this way in public. We are civilized.
Perhaps we get so used to being taken the wrong way (by paranoid parents?) that we gave up even trying to be understood - ???
No, not me. I have been overcoming reacting to every word that is meant to hurt or taken the wrong way. I am learning that mature adults do not need every word disected and clarified over and over again. That is the way I taught children. Adults communicate at a much higher level.
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OM stated:
Dr. G - is there something you can do to rescue the board? Perhaps insist on only allowing Members to Post? Anything?! How can I continue to grow without you all??!! I just found you, and don't want to lose you now....
That still won't get rid of the problem. Unless Dr. G can get rid of specific people (s for example). That might go a long way to getting the board back to normal. It's been stated by a large portion of the board that they aren't comfortable being here with the convicted sexual predator thing going on. That's been a cancer here for a few months now.
dharma
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s or Solace is a member. So that's why I said that wouldn't get rid of the whole problem. But it could definately cut down on the problem. But I have heard some very profound things from non-members and sometimes having a mask let's us tell the truth. I know some members here use the guest function quite a bit. That post by "B" a bit ago was great.
dharma
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The bully is at fault and everyone standing on the sidelines has the opportunity to step in,
That is exactly what the troll/bully wants. The more people that join in the fray, the merrier, and the more amusement that person gets. The meal then turns into a buffet.
It is not a matter of being afraid to step in, it should really be, why bother with trolls? Why continue to feed them? I loathe bullies in real life, but here, they are only hot air. Dismiss them, do not read their posts. That is what they fear the most, to be ignored.
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Hi Guest-who-I-was-talking-to-earlier.
Thanks for your thoughtful post. And also for the examples. It wasn't my intention for you to feel your words were being dissected. I understand what you mean by that. I wanted you to see what your words were saying.
I'm truly sorry about your experiences. You can't be a teacher AND a parent? Yeuch!
Maybe there are other ways of stopping things than saying 'stop'. We can't control other people. It's a truism that all we can change is ourselves. How we feel or how we react or how we ask for help or how we help our children handle things (or, or, or...)
My child decided to say 'thank you' with great sincerity and a great big smile on his face any time someone started teasing him or saying something mean. It's amazingly disarming!!! And makes everyone laugh. Try it - it's fun!! :-) I'm not up to his stature yet, tho - he's a black belt in dealing with bullies - being young, he caught on quick. I'm good on the theory, but still just a beginner in practice.
You see, WE are the authority figures in our own lives. We are not at the mercy of anyone unless we give them that power. I believe that this board can help us regain that power. And I thank the bastards who are trying to taint it (like the many Ns who have tainted my life) for giving us all the chance to work out just what is really going on in our hearts.
They come and go - if they go today, they'll be back again in a month or two - ready to pick on some other unsuspecting victim. And the same chaos will arise.
I can't change how the spectators react and I can't change the way the bully behaves. All I can do is work on myself until I find what makes me feel truly strong. Not bully back, not give up my seat at the show, not back down, not back out, not disappear, not stick my chin out but SOMETHING which comes not from fear, guilt or shame but from strength, - and from integrity and truth.
Phew! I think I need to go and lie down for a bit! :wink:
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Well, looks like I'm hooked. It's hard to stay away from the family that restored me to sanity. But like all families there are problems.
Hi MM if you are still there. I know you appreciate hearing about my mother "experiences" so here is one. I took my mother to the doctor's on Thursday. On the drive over and during the examination I was acutely aware of the 3 distinct people or aspects? in her. Lately they are more evident, even to my brother! There's a combative, vendictive, get even at all costs (' the doctor's an idiot, never pays enough attention, I'm going to really give it to her etc') to the little girl swinging her legs and acting coy.
Both doctor and I struggled through the half truths and bewlidering lies - very difficult and frustrating particularly for the doctor. I tried to coax the woman in her who makes sense once and awhile to make an appearance. And she did...for a bit, enough, so the doctor could adjust the medication. But I need to accept that this is how she is, too old to keep track of her many selves and keep the story consistent. I think all my life I have invested so much in trying to make my world a rational reasonable place. You know, I need to take a break from that part of me - it's complusive and exhausting. From now on I'll try to respond to what feels true in alll areas of my life and let the rest go. Still learning. Good to hear you.
Hi Only Me - I share your concern for the board. It has been so important.
Hope to have some of our talks again.
Les
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Hi Les,
so great to hear that you are still here! I was missing you already!
Does your NM let you go in with her, to the examination by the dr? My NM's visits are a big secret, and when I ask if she told the dr about this problem and that affliction, she says that No, There is Nothing Wrong with her, just high blood pressure - she must be Perfect, it seems, even for the Dr!
Interesting to see that 'six year old' swinging her legs - I've seen that behaviour too. And, as for 'coy' - well, mine is coy - the other day she needed something at a store, and she said " I batted my eyes at him, and he did everything I wanted - when I bat my eyes, it works every time!" Good grief!! Can you picture an 85yr old woman batting her eyes at a man in a store, and believing that she has him under her glamourous spell?! :roll:
It is hard to make sense of the NM's behaviour sometimes, when so much of it is based on lies and manipulations. I seem to be getting a bit if a chill in my heart towards her, because of a few of her huge manipulations re dad's Will, etc.
But, at the same time, I know that it is easier to play the game with her and try to mirror back what she needs, because her wrath is worse if I don't.
And I have to thank you for your grocery bag bunny ears story - it has brightened my day every time I think of it - it is so funny to see how ridiculous they can be, and it helps to be able to laugh about it sometimes. In the real world, outside this board, people just wouldn't understand.
My husband's best fiend just said to me the other day " But, why don't you just be yourself? I'm sure that is all that you need to do - just be yourself!?" That is why I am so grateful to be able to come here to talk about it all - those who have never experienced having a NParent just don't get it at all, and these days I just save my breath.
Well, didn't mean to go on like this - must be glad to see your name here today, after all! Thanks for sticking around. Might as well, now!