Voicelessness and Emotional Survival Message Board
Voicelessness and Emotional Survival => Voicelessness and Emotional Survival Message Board => Topic started by: ch on August 24, 2004, 10:51:58 AM
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Hi everybody,
I am fairly new here, so HELLO fellow posters!!
I have been thinking about "love" and what it means to "fall in love" and be "in love." As a victim of being raised by Nmother, i've come to realize that i don't know what that is anymore and probably never did, therefore, i can honestly say that i probably never been in love, although i have had boyfriends and marriage proposals. Somehow, i never trusted myself or in the other person to make that commitment. Am i a victim or what?!!
Now, i am 37, looking better than ever, but i get looks and questions from concerned friends about my being single. Most of the time, i am fine with it and don't stress about it at all, but every once in while, i do wonder what i am missing in life. It must be wonderful to be in love and live happily within a marriage and creating a family. I know, i have lots more work to do as i feel somewhat immature with this aspect of my life. On the other hand, i am so introspective and feel deeply about humanity. Its been hard to find just the right match for me because i find people nowadays
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are so shallow, so controlling, so.....etc.....
Is this a symptom of being a victim of being raised with N parents?
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Welcome ch,
What an interesting and thought provoking question. It would be edifying to learn how other people here define it. I'll take a swing:
I think love is discovering someone with similar good qualities and values that one may have oneself. The feeling of "gosh, they are just like me and isn't it wonderful?" A feeling of trusting and knowing that this loved person will respect your feelings, that is, acknowledge them, respond to them in a life-giving manner. No ridicule, or invalidation.
I think most people, being human, do put a few conditions on their love. Most people enter relationships with expectations of some kind. Examples: take care of me, or treat me with respect, or I want to have children, whatever.
Just a few thoughts. I'm sure there's lots more to add to this skimpy attempt. Again, welcome to the board. Seeker
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Hi ch, and welcome to the board-- and thanks for starting such an interesting topic.
As I have worked more and more on myself, and gone further and further along on my "Journey to the Self," I have also come to question just what love is. Along the way, I seem to have found more answers to what love is NOT, than what love IS.
A very difficult thing for me to face was the realization that I was probably never in love with my ex. We were married for 13 years. At least what we may have "felt" for each other was a need-based and very "transactional" type of love... a typical "giver and taker" co-dependency. The following relationship-- which has now lasted eight years-- is certainly much better, but it includes a lot of old patterns. I don't remember whose theory it is, but there's a theory that we have different "modalities" within relationships, including child, parent and partner. I would have to say that pretty much all my relationships have been more of a "child-parent" thing, than a true "partner" thing. And that alarms me, somewhat. And I realize that my current relationship continues somewhat in this vein.... with a dynamic that not only reflects my "caretaking/rescue" dynamic, but my partner's need to "be rescued and taken care of."
As I keep learning, I am also learning that perhaps I have never really been "in love." And maybe I have such a long "training," that I am still not sure what it even means....
--Peter
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ch,
I think there are many, many kinds of love. For example, infatuation, passionate love, companionship love, maternal love, love for a pet, for favorite books, etc. Commitment is something else. I think it's a mutual agreement to certain conditions so that a relationship will be sustained over time. That sounds pretty dry, I know.
bunny
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Now, i am 37, looking better than ever, but i get looks and questions from concerned friends about my being single. Most of the time, i am fine with it and don't stress about it at all, but every once in while, i do wonder what i am missing in life. It must be wonderful to be in love and live happily within a marriage and creating a family. I know, i have lots more work to do as i feel somewhat immature with this aspect of my life. On the other hand, i am so introspective and feel deeply about humanity. Its been hard to find just the right match for me because i find people nowadays
Hi Ch,
Well, I could have written that part myself... I get asked so much, why, why, why, I am single. Like you, I get asked out quite a bit, but I am also very introspecitve and "deep" and I have trouble finding a personality match. Not necessarily someone as deep and intro. at all, but just someone who "feels right". Someone more emotionally and spiritually connected within themselves.
I also wonder whether I am missing out on so many interesting experiences by declining invitations (with people I don't feel are a fit) without giving it a chance at least, or whether it might be better because I'd be saving myself headaches. I'm not sure either way on that one... Maybe it would be a case by case thing.
Anyway, love to me = healing. Since relationships bring up all of the painful childhood emotions, a relationship that would be conscious enough to allow for the understandings of where reactions and behaviors are coming from (ie. overreactions that lead to arguments are seldom about the surface subject), being able to talk through them from their base point, and heal them, would be a very loving one, at core.
In short, I'd say love = consciousness= healing... My thinking is that the more evolution of consciousness that humanity is able to achieve, the more we will experience truly loving relationships, and vice versa.
I know that probably didn't help you one bit! LOL! hehe..
That's just my weird answer....
BT
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Hi Seeker, Peter, Bunny, BT,
I liked all of your answers. It is great help to reflect and share all your great ideas. Let's keep brainstorming on this topic. I'd like to really get to the bottom of this one.
For me, i have no trouble with love of arts, music, animals, nature, children, humanity. The specific problem i am referring to is romantic love-- love suitable to sustain a long-term relationship, hopefully marriage.
Why does it seem so difficult? How have our Nparents ruined our chances to trust ourselves, to find a good mate. I have a history of Nmen as former and current boyfriends. Although, i tried to learn the lesson each time, and slowly improved my selection of men, the common denominator is still there. They are all N men!!! :x Ahhh, damn it!! I need help!! :evil:
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For me, i have no trouble with love of arts, music, animals, nature, children, humanity. The specific problem i am referring to is romantic love-- love suitable to sustain a long-term relationship, hopefully marriage.
I think that we are given wrong info (usually through TV and films) about romantic love. We think that love is this transcendant and permanent feeling, really magical, that stays fresh and beautiful always. There is very little information about setting high standards, being discerning, and using one's head. That is actually far more important for marriage than the "in love" emotions. Marriage has to withstand banal everyday stuff, family emergencies like illness/death, in-laws, family events, arguments, big decisions, etc. It's more about finding someone you can go through life with.
Here is a book that I enthusiastically recommend: Are You The One For Me? by Barbara d'Angelis. I really think you'd like it.
bunny
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Thank you for the topic, ch.
I suspect there are as many answers as there are people because we all have different experiences, needs, feelings, etc.
Still, sharing the human condition is so rewarding.
My experience, so far, has led me to the current experience of knowing, unrevocably, that I am loved. For a long time, perhaps six years into this committed relationship, my insecurities and past hurts kept me skeptical. I chose my spouse based on my assessment of his character, our ability to communicate and problem solve, mutual goals in life, etc. What I found was someone who loves me unconditionally. How do I know? I see manifestations of it time and time again. I don't wonder or question, ever. My insecurities have disappeared. I understand it is a commitment...a commitment to ourselves and to each other. It is wanting what you have and having what you need. It is, day after day, communicating with the goal of mutual understanding. It is respecting each other's boundaries. It is taking the time to listen, to understand, to care. Its knowing that our lives aren't perfect...but knowing, no matter what, his love will be there. Its trusting...after having been hurt once so deeply that I didn't want to go on living. It trusting...after having been hurt again. Its finding someone who understood the hurt and was willing to commit to do whatever it took to ease the hurt. Its also about being committed to ourselves as individuals...the gift of caring for ourselves as well as each other.
This may not make sense but his love is so deep and manifests in so many ways that I don't "need" for him to express it. He does, but what I'm talking about is my need.
Another aspect of our relationship that I love is the reciprocity. It is there on every level. I can count on him in every way.
I know you have been talking about romantic love, but I have something else to share. Something that I have learned, from loving his children, is that when you unconditionally love someone and are committed to them you don't even have to receive back. What I mean is that I love them, each one, very deeply. Each of them and I bonded deeply through several experiences. This bond has threatened their mother, who was out of the picture for a while. Now she's back and they are confused about their loyalty to each of us. At first it hurt, the way they treated me. Now I understand and see the effects of my unconditional love in so many ways even if they can't demonstrate it. So even though at times they seem indifferent, and that used to hurt, now I see children who are confused or who feel it is more safe to not show their love to me (the other ones will "tell" on the one who is interacting with me) than to displease their mother. What I'm trying to say is that there are times where unconditional love means just that...no conditions. I feel myself growing through this experience...to love no matter what. To understand the other person and their needs and to place that above your own.
I am not speaking of co-dependency. Marriages and committed adult relationships are different than adult-child relationships. But there could be times in a committed relationship when unconditional love is warranted and even needed. I know I have developed this capacity...and the knowledge to know when its love and when its dysfunction.
Hmmm...feels like just a start to me too, Guest.
Ishana
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I would like to meet a man and share whatever years I have left but my family (in particular, my own father) abused and damaged me so much. It is probably best for me not to have a man in my life now. And only concentrate on my art. Unconditional love is something I want to give to myself at this point. I walked away from a 6 year unhealthy relationship last month. I am taking little baby steps now. The light is back on and I am not living in the darkness anymore....maybe that is what unconditional love feels like. :?:
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Unconditional? Whats that? lol
If you figure out what this beast is please let me know.
I hope you find it.
PnkDragn3
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On second thought I think I know the answer to that question.
Isnt unconditional love what Nkids feel for the Nfolk?
No matter how bad we are treated or punished or pummeled into the ground we still love our Nfolk. Wouldnt that be unconditional?
PnkDragn
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Yes, that's right!! we know how to give unconditional love to our Nparents, but since our judgment is so clouded and disturbed by the N experience, how can we attract real love, the unconditional kind of course, in our adult lives?
How can we avoid fake love and the relationships that will replay the same unhealthy patterns we have experienced? We need to break the unhealthy pattern that is hardwired in our psyche.
I fear falling back into the same patterns and being an N-supplier in my romantic life.
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When we are happy within ourselves, within our lives and healthy within our hearts, we will attract people of the same state.
This will increase the chances of our relationship being what we truly want.
Unconditional love means love with no conditions attached, imo.
No requirements and nothing expected for it.
In order to love unconditionally, we must be able to forgive entirely.
To give unconditional love is a great challenge sometimes and one that we may not anticipate fully. It is a decision we make, a choice.
To receive it, is the greatest gift imagined.
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I have a very good relationship with my wife and it is based on love, equality and not taking each other for granted. I loved my wife when we got married, but I love her more today than I did then. It has grown over the years with mutual trust, understanding, shared memories and letting each other know every day that we love one another. And I thinks it's very important to have similar values. I can't stress that enough.
People usually are so busy looking for some kind of high feeling or lustful feeling and that doesn't last. IMO it's important to know yourself well and take time to know another person before investing too much emotion or you're only burning daylight so to speak.
I don't beleive in unconditional love. I think in a man/woman relationship it is healthy to have conditions that are conducive to a good relationship. Without a few requirements, it's not much good. It's a bit like boundaries to me. There are times when the requirements might get stretched though. That's okay if you have a good foundation.
We also don't curse at each other or argue. We do disagree but seek compromise because we are both invested in making each other happy.
Nassim
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Nassim, that is great! Kudos to you both for being so conscious/aware, considerate, and continuing to work at things, and "feed" the love, daily.
I couldn't agree more with everything you wrote, and that is really the kind of relationship I seek as well.
Do you have a brother? :wink: lol....
BT
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Do you have a brother? lol....
BT
Hey BT,
The only credit I take for a good marriage is having enough sense to recognize when I had a good thing LOL!!! You might want to meet my wife's brother instead!
N
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LOLOL!!! Very funny :D
I think you can take at least a bit more credit, too :wink:
BT
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Yes the eternal question. It's supposed to feel good all the time that love..I was relating to one of our board friends a while ago how I was wondering what life was all about?! :? Is it about understanding everything or about accepting everything?
And if life is not about perfection then is it about purity?
I've obviously read all your replies thus far..I love all of your ideas. Bunny you're so straightforward and by the book, or should I say buy the books! :lol: Yet very clear on your acceptance, it seems, of various forms and concepts of love.
Marriage has to withstand banal everyday stuff, family emergencies like illness/death, in-laws, family events, arguments, big decisions, etc. It's more about finding someone you can go through life with.
I like that, it makes alot of sense to me. And that's why i've chosen "C" my life partner, because the big stuff is taken care of in this relationship..we have common I guess i'd call them "soul goals". And we do plan to get married...
Why does it seem so difficult? How have our Nparents ruined our chances to trust ourselves, to find a good mate.
Now this ch really caught my eye and scraped my soul! In my case I would say yes, especially my mother. This very evening before responding to this topic I went out for a ciggy with my friend. I looked at her and said I wanted to ask her something and it was difficult for me to bring it out. She patiently waited, even turned her head aside to make it easier for me. I wanted to cry..then I recognized that this is often my own signal that the issue to be presented comes from my core.
I asked her: Monique do you find me "beau", ie: good looking..and I wanted to know this from a societal point of view..I didn't want her to tell me you have a nice personality et al. I wanted the pop version..like if you were looking at a magazine picture..good or bad.
Monique answered I shouldn't worry about a thing..I'm handsome, good looking and a turn on! she said I should look into the mirror and start believing it!
I've discussed with her how my N mother never had anything good to say about her looks. In my programming or template are all the memories of her ongoing discourse about her not being beautiful..all her negative talk I was subjected to for years on end..not to mention all her depressions and extremely low self esteem.
Rationally, i know i'm not responsible for any of it. I KNOW THAT! And it makes me so upset that at 41 years of age I still have that silent cassette playing in my head. Rooted deeply within my psyche. It angers me you can't believe...And that has affected my ability to receive love.
Mind you after half a lifetime of thinking and wondering what love is..i'm begining to authentically sense that the meaning of IT is starting to take shape..especially in my present relationship.
I believe, have always believed that there is someone out there for everybody....not someone for some time but the big SOMEONE. Put aside all the issues that we as adult children of Ns have and have had to deal with over time...that SOMEONE is there somewhere..perhaps that SOMEONE has come and gone because of death..and maybe because it was a one time deal..but i'm sure we all know when the SOMEONE hits..
So i'm french and a romantic! :D but love without depth is nothing. Love without intimacy is empty, love without vulnerability is futile. There is no such thing as love for fun in my books.
I think it's a mutual agreement to certain conditions so that a relationship will be sustained over time.
Certainly Bunny..that doesn't sound dry at all. And why wouldn't one want his/her relationship to be sustained over time? Especially if it's good and especially if the feeling that the SOMEBODY is there...I suspect it's only human to want things easy but nothing worth preserving isn't without some kind of struggle. In our own private N hells have we not struggled and fought to preserve and sustain ourselves over time? :shock:
I also suspect that the more dysfunctional we've been brought up, the more we are prone to sabotage what is truly good for us. And i've consciously and unconsciously done plenty of that. "C" visualized me as part of his dream..isn't that a love-ly thing to say to someone :D I hate myself everytime I allow myself to think he might not mean it..that's what I mean by sabotaging my own "happiness"..because in N homes truly nothing lasts forever..not the joy nor the peace..unkept promises and unfulfillable dreams are what goes on in that type of environment.
So maybe love is a package deal..comprised of tons of stuff :shock: the good, the bad and the ugly wrapped in the comfy safe and secure knowledge that it can exist if it is well taken care of.
I've seen intellectually disabled couples together. Have you? They have less than half our analysing and thinking capacity. I've seen them snuggle and smile and take care of each other over time. That is what keeps me believing in my theory that there's SOMEONE out there for everyone. It's also a reminder that too much thinking can get in the way of what's coming my/your way. :wink:
'nuff said,
love to all,
Nic :)
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Hello Nic,
I believe, have always believed that there is someone out there for everybody....not someone for some time but the big SOMEONE. Put aside all the issues that we as adult children of Ns have and have had to deal with over time...that SOMEONE is there somewhere..perhaps that SOMEONE has come and gone because of death..and maybe because it was a one time deal..but i'm sure we all know when the SOMEONE hits..
Whenever I hear about "special someones" or "soulmates" or the "true love" I always think the person is unconsciously talking about a yearning for their mother's love. Because among adults, there is realistically more than one potential partner. But we only have one mother. And the infantile bond with the mother is incredibly powerful.
"C" visualized me as part of his dream..isn't that a love-ly thing to say to someone :D I hate myself everytime I allow myself to think he might not mean it..that's what I mean by sabotaging my own "happiness"..because in N homes truly nothing lasts forever..not the joy nor the peace..unkept promises and unfulfillable dreams are what goes on in that type of environment.
I wouldn't feel espcially confident if someone described me as part of his dream. Dreams are a bit ephemeral. I'd rather be his choice or decision.
So maybe love is a package deal..comprised of tons of stuff :shock: the good, the bad and the ugly wrapped in the comfy safe and secure knowledge that it can exist if it is well taken care of.
Yes it is a package deal. You're right.
cheers,
bunny
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Hello to you Bunny!
Whenever I hear about "special someones" or "soulmates" or the "true love" I always think the person is unconsciously talking about a yearning for their mother's love. Because among adults, there is realistically more than one potential partner. But we only have one mother. And the infantile bond with the mother is incredibly powerful.
Been through that Bunny..in psychoanalysis..I came out the other end. That is to say, I no longer yearn for my mother's love, she was smothering et al., drove my father out of his proper place in my life. I'm pleased to say I honestly like/love him more today than I do my mother. The fact the b-mom found me has opened up a new area of observation however, which no doubt will lead to new personal perspectives on the topic of gay guys and their mothers. Food for thought. :)
[/quote]I wouldn't feel espcially confident if someone described me as part of his dream. Dreams are a bit ephemeral. I'd rather be his choice or decision.
So, you're more auditory than visual? No matter how we've decided to anchor ourselves in our lives, the proof is in the pudding. It is ultimately a choice and a decision to build a life with someone; in my case and "C's" I would venture to say, our "dreams" or ideals seem to have converged. The objective being balance as opposed to perfection. Two individuals consciously and authentically contributing 100%/100%. An engagement and then a commitment. A risk without a guarantee. You know what I mean.. :)
Salut,
Nic :wink:
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Hi Nic,
That is to say, I no longer yearn for my mother's love, she was smothering et al., drove my father out of his proper place in my life.
Re: "special someone/soulmate" oops, I didn't mean an adult's feelings about his/her mother. I'm referring to the infant/child part. This part of us never stops yearning, no matter what the reality is.
So, you're more auditory than visual?
I don't know. I would feel uneasy if a man said, "You are what I've been dreaming of." That's why I could understand your difficulty in retaining that he means it. I'm sure he does mean it, but it's not the most convincing thing to hear. Anyway actions speak louder than words which you point out.
bunny
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Hi Bunny!
Ok, I understand better now. :)
I'm referring to the infant/child part. This part of us never stops yearning, no matter what the reality is.
Yes, yearning and churning! What a schlepp! I'd like my life to be a schleppette for a little while! :shock: Need some rest ..I thought I needed a rest from thinking but am discovering I need a rest from negative thinking instead...
ps// can't resist trying to impress you with my yiddish, which of course you probably need like a loch im kopf right?!
Nic :lol: :)
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Hi Nic,
I'm impressed by your Yiddish which you know better than I do. :lol: What's "loch im Kopf"? Hole in the head?
bunny