Voicelessness and Emotional Survival Message Board

Voicelessness and Emotional Survival => Voicelessness and Emotional Survival Message Board => Topic started by: Izzy_now on June 13, 2008, 12:45:27 PM

Title: Gossip
Post by: Izzy_*now* on June 13, 2008, 12:45:27 PM: Quote from: Ami on June 13, 2008, 12:36:53 PM
I think Izzy is dissing Lighter. Who else could it be?

Not in the least Ami
Izzy
Title: Re: I am the recipient of this PM just 8 min ago--
Post by: Hopalong on June 13, 2008, 12:50:10 PM: Hi Izz,
Have you ever considered asking anyone not to PM you? Sometimes it helps to set that boundary. Or, you can use the Block Sender feature if you feel you'd rather not be approached privately.

It has helped me to set that boundary a few times...

love
Hops
Title: Re: I am the recipient of this PM just 8 min ago--
Post by: Izzy_*now* on June 13, 2008, 12:52:45 PM: This would appear to be a Bcc error, or an intentional 'slip'.

What have we here? gossip, accusation with no proof anywhere to back up that suspicion
Title: Re: I am the recipient of this PM just 8 min ago--
Post by: Ami on June 13, 2008, 12:54:03 PM: I am SO sorry. That was meant for s/one else and my own PRIVATE conversation. I am really, really sorry Izzy. Please forgive me . I ,honestly, did not send it on purpose. Gosh, please give me grace. Ami
Title: Re: I am the recipient of this PM just 8 min ago--
Post by: Hopalong on June 13, 2008, 12:54:07 PM: Ahh. Well then, Block Sender would protect you from that too.

((((((Izzy)))))))

love
Hops
Title: Re: I am the recipient of this PM just 8 min ago--
Post by: Ami on June 13, 2008, 12:57:59 PM: Maybe community has nobility and allows mistakes, Hops. Ami
Title: Re: I am the recipient of this PM just 8 min ago--
Post by: Hopalong on June 13, 2008, 01:00:52 PM: Healthy ones do!

Good for you for owning up.

xo
Hops
Title: Re: I am the recipient of this PM just 8 min ago--
Post by: Ami on June 13, 2008, 01:06:22 PM: Thank you.
I made a mistake and I do try to apologize, to the best of my ability , when I do. I am very flawed and I am sure that I do not apologize, as much as I should. I am trying to build my character, but it is a slow process. Ami
Title: Re: I am the recipient of this PM just 8 min ago--
Post by: Leah on June 13, 2008, 01:08:33 PM: Yes, Ami

Healthy community does allow for mistakes,

and apologies are warmly welcomed and received.

Love,

Leah
Title: Re: I am the recipient of this PM just 8 min ago--
Post by: Izzy_*now* on June 13, 2008, 01:40:35 PM: Quote from: Ami on June 13, 2008, 12:54:03 PM
I am SO sorry. That was meant for s/one else and my own PRIVATE conversation. I am really, really sorry Izzy. Please forgive me . I ,honestly, did not send it on purpose. Gosh, please give me grace. Ami

For whom was it meant, Ami? How many people are in on your gossiping about me. I would like the truth.
I can understand a computer error. I would just like the recipient list.

--or as can happen on this board, I might have to suspect those who rush to your defence!
Izzy
Title: Re: I am the recipient of this PM just 8 min ago--
Post by: Leah on June 13, 2008, 01:47:45 PM: Hi Izzy,

Rest assured, I have NOT written to Ami about you Izzy.

So therefore, please refrain from including me in your list of suspects.

I have merely written posting no.8 above, in of support of Hops' posting that in a healthy community we can fall into error and make mistakes.

All can error, myself included.

Ami is solely responsible for her own thoughts, words, and actions. And she did apologize and openly admit to being "flawed" which I feel is commendable.

Personally, for me, a sincere apology is all sufficient.

Sincerely yours, with respect,

Love, Leah

Edit in: I have just checked my inbox and I have NOT received a PM from Ami about you Izzy.

The last PM received into my Inbox is a friendly encouraging PM from another board member, to whom I have not yet replied.
Title: Re: I am the recipient of this PM just 8 min ago--
Post by: lighter on June 13, 2008, 02:29:39 PM: I'm confused, Leah.

How is an apology, for accidentally SENDING gossip ABOUT Izzy, TO Izzy.... constructive?

It seems that an apology for gossiping in the first place, would be more appropriate, IMO.

Of course, the most important factor with an apology, is not repeating that which we're apologizing about.

You agree?

Lighter
Title: Re: I am the recipient of this PM just 8 min ago--
Post by: Izzy_*now* on June 13, 2008, 02:38:27 PM: I agree, lighter

and thank you for for your post.

and Leah, you are not on my list of suspects.

--re lighter's post I have to sit on this until I understand why this gossip is happening in the first place.

Izzy
Title: Re: I am the recipient of this PM just 8 min ago--
Post by: lighter on June 13, 2008, 02:48:30 PM: Got it.

Lighter
Title: Re: I am the recipient of this PM just 8 min ago--
Post by: Leah on June 13, 2008, 02:53:38 PM: Lighter - I agree, that when a person apologizes with genuine remorse then they ought to make an every effort not to repeat the same mistake. (likewise, as in personal repentance)

   Grace and mercy extended affords the person to learn from their mistakes, and also, hopefully, realize the consequence and effect on other people, generally speaking.


Izzy - Thank you, and I failed to extend to you my heartfelt understanding that viewing such a message must have been upsetting and hurtful for you.

Ami - I do think that you have been so hurt by what has transpired from December onwards, and that you may be feeling captive in awaiting an apology.

   I too have walked in those shoes in my life journey experience. Invalidation leaves a person stranded in the drifting sand.

Love to ALL,

Leah
Title: Re: I am the recipient of this PM just 8 min ago--
Post by: lighter on June 13, 2008, 03:15:01 PM: Leah.....

We are compelled to accept an apology when.....

"a person expresses genuine remorse, and makes every effort not to repeat the same mistake."

I agree with you.

Conversly..... I believe it's wrong to accept an apology that contains no genuine remorse and no intention to do better.

Promising to keep the gossip "private" isn't logical and it certainly doesn't speak to regret.

IMO, it speaks to being sorry one outed themselves in the act of gossiping.

Lighter

PS... Since the gossip included me, I felt my comments in the matter are appropriate.

I have to ask, why did you respond?

Please consider this a gentle request for clarity, not a judgment.

((Leah)) I agree with your interpretation of apology and forgiveness and look forward to discussing it further: )
Title: Re: I am the recipient of this PM just 8 min ago--
Post by: Leah on June 13, 2008, 03:30:17 PM: Dear Lighter,

I feel strongly that my genuine intentions with a good heart, from the time I joined this board in January 2007 (with a break from May'07 to Oct'07) to present day, have been misunderstood and misconstrued.

Last December, I created threads with a plea in the exact same way as Changing as just done right now.

That we consider one another, with reciprocal communication showing respect, and asking for clarification if one is unsure.

Actually, dear Changing was most supportive of my endeavours at that time in December.

I really don't have the time or resources to keep repeating myself over and over, and I have no desire to dig out and repost the threads.

Now, as for your question regarding Ami's behavior and/or actions - you would need to speak with Ami directly.

Firstly, I have NO desire to review Ami's behavior on the board, nor indeed anyone else..

Secondly, I do feel that it is graceful to allow any person the freedom to reflect and decide regarding their own thoughts, words, and actions, especially, when they have aplogized.

I have already explained why I posted in view of our current thread on the subject of " Healthy Community "

I feel that this is sufficient on this subject matter, here on Izzy's thread, as far as I am concerned.

Upon reflection, I wonder if it is worth posting ones own thoughts and support here on this board!

However, I would like to say, that here on this board I have, and I do, freely extend genuine support and encouragement to all who wish to receive a communication from me as a person.

And I value and appreciate genuine support and encouragement from ALL members.

((( Lighter )))

Love, Leah

Edit in: My heart is mindful that Ami is working through her healing journey with the recent (Jan'08) impact of personal loss and grief.
Title: Re: I am the recipient of this PM just 8 min ago--
Post by: lighter on June 13, 2008, 05:08:36 PM: Dear Leah...

I asked for clarity....

not for you to feel you had to mount a defense... sorry if you felt attacked.

I didn't understand why you were posting, here.

It seemed you made clear you weren't involved, and so....

I didn't understand why you were involving yourself.

Lighter

ps... I realize this is a public message board.

Considering the recent discussions on gossip, I thought it odd you would join this particular thread.

My apologies if you're upset.... I have no need to discuss this further if you don't wish to: )
Title: Re: I am the recipient of this PM just 8 min ago--
Post by: Izzy_*now* on June 13, 2008, 07:45:39 PM: Quote from: Izzy_*now* on June 13, 2008, 01:40:35 PM
Quote from: Ami on June 13, 2008, 12:54:03 PM
I am SO sorry. That was meant for s/one else and my own PRIVATE conversation. I am really, really sorry Izzy. Please forgive me . I ,honestly, did not send it on purpose. Gosh, please give me grace. Ami

For whom was it meant, Ami? How many people are in on your gossiping about me. I would like the truth.
I can understand a computer error. I would just like the recipient list.

Izzy

Please Ami
An explanation for me why you chose to say I was dissing lighter and where was the proof to back up that gossip you PMd to others.
Izzy
Title: Re: I am the recipient of this PM just 8 min ago--
Post by: Leah on June 13, 2008, 07:49:57 PM: Quote from: lighter on June 13, 2008, 05:08:36 PM
Dear Leah...

I asked for clarity....

not for you to feel you had to mount a defense... sorry if you felt attacked.

I didn't understand why you were posting, here.

It seemed you made clear you weren't involved, and so....

I didn't understand why you were involving yourself.

Lighter

ps... I realize this is a public message board.

Considering the recent discussions on gossip, I thought it odd you would join this particular thread.

My apologies if you're upset.... I have no need to discuss this further if you don't wish to: )

Dear Lighter,

My goodness, how can you possibly assume - as to whether or not I am upset? Without even asking me first? You assume that I am mounting a defense??

As it happens, I am not upset, at all.

I was merely communicating with you, that's all.

My heart is genuine and sincere for ALL people.

I RESPONDED IN ACCORD WITH HOP'S COMMENT THAT MISTAKES ARE ALLOWED IN A HEALTHY COMMUNITY

THEN HOPS COMMENDED AMI FOR OWNING UP.

AS I DO TOO - ACTUALLY

SHE EVEN APOLOGIZED AND OPENLY ACKNOWLEDGED THAT SHE IS FLAWED

I can't keep explaining the same thing over and over, it is so draining.

Love, Leah
Title: Re: I am the recipient of this PM just 8 min ago--
Post by: Leah on June 13, 2008, 07:51:43 PM: Hops posted here also, Lighter

And as I have already mentioned, I was responding in reference to Hops posting "HEALTHY COMMUNITY" (AND with regard to the HEALTHY COMMUNITY thread)

Hops was responding to Izzy's thread, this one.

Hope that gives you clarification.

Love, Leah
Title: Re: I am the recipient of this PM just 8 min ago--
Post by: Overcomer on June 13, 2008, 07:55:22 PM: First of all, I just want to say that I have been watching this "thing" for a few days now. If ANYONE thinks we bystanders do not see the dramatics you are mistaken. It is comical and I guess that is why I always get accused of being the comic relief. I cannot help but laugh. I am friends with both sides of the fray and I cannot get involved. But I want you all to know that the whole thing is ridiculous.

Imagine you didn't know anyone..............you stumbled upon these exchanges after exchanges after new thread after locked threads after blocked PMs after admonitions from Dr. G................wouldn't you consider it ludacris???

It IS stupid.............plain and simple.............pointless, fruitless, a waste of all of our time. We do not know half of these people from Adam and yet we go off the deep end. Goofy........ :shock:
Title: Re: I am the recipient of this PM just 8 min ago--
Post by: Leah on June 13, 2008, 07:58:12 PM: Quote from: Overcomer on June 13, 2008, 07:55:22 PM
First of all, I just want to say that I have been watching this "thing" for a few days now. If ANYONE thinks we bystanders do not see the dramatics you are mistaken. It is comical and I guess that is why I always get accused of being the comic relief. I cannot help but laugh. I am friends with both sides of the fray and I cannot get involved. But I want you all to know that the whole thing is ridiculous.

Imagine you didn't know anyone..............you stumbled upon these exchanges after exchanges after new thread after locked threads after blocked PMs after admonitions from Dr. G................wouldn't you consider it ludacris???

It IS stupid.............plain and simple.............pointless, fruitless, a waste of all of our time. We do not know half of these people from Adam and yet we go off the deep end. Goofy........ :shock:

(((((((((((((( Kelly )))))))))))

Hooray! Voice of Sound Reason.

This is ALL so time consuming and detracting from the purpose of the board which is for Healing!

I can only imagine what any Bystander to this board is thinking.

Love to ALL

Leah x
Title: Re: I am the recipient of this PM just 8 min ago--
Post by: Gabben on June 13, 2008, 08:01:17 PM: ((Overcomer))...........thanks for that, from someone who has gone off the deep end, and is goofy, your post made me laugh...at myself and others...it really is goofy.

All I can say is that I am glad that I can laugh at myself.

Lise
Title: Re: I am the recipient of this PM just 8 min ago--
Post by: lighter on June 13, 2008, 08:02:42 PM: I said "if" you're upset, Leah...

didn't mean to imply I knew that you were.

And.... I still don't have clarity......

but that's OK cause I can't remember what it was I was asking, lol.

I think it had something to do with apologizing for getting ourselves caught gossiping...

vs......

owning up to gossiping and promising not to do it again.

::scratching head::

Lighter

ps.... I look forward to more comic relief, OVercomer: )

You are the board's Mike Luckovitch, after all.
Title: Re: I am the recipient of this PM just 8 min ago--
Post by: Izzy_*now* on June 13, 2008, 08:05:24 PM: Hi OC
You have been watching something for a few days. Yes it would appear ludicrous.

I just received Ami's PM this morning, so your post might belong on another thread. However, that said, it can remain as part and parcel of the childish gossip that began this thread.

I must also say that it is very human to have a knee-jerk reaction to something that someone says about another, in a derogatory way. That was me.

I could have kept this private, I know, but I felt it ought to be known.

We might not know our board members personally in 3D, but I gather no one takes to libel very well, even a nick name.

Best
Izzy
Title: Re: I am the recipient of this PM just 8 min ago--
Post by: Overcomer on June 13, 2008, 08:07:39 PM: That was the name I was trying to pull out of my hat - Mike Luckovitch...but I really don't want to be the comic relief.................maybe I am psycho but when I read all this I break into maniacal laughter..................I mean, literally cracking up, shaking my head, not believing all this. It has gone beyond absurd to absolutely hysterical.

And my question is? So What???
Title: Re: I am the recipient of this PM just 8 min ago--
Post by: Overcomer on June 13, 2008, 08:10:11 PM: Izzy: I am sorry. It probably deserved a thread of it's own. I agree. Why would someone even care if you did diss someone else?? Oh well, sorry to hijack....and I do feel like I know you more than Adam...
Title: Re: I am the recipient of this PM just 8 min ago--
Post by: Leah on June 13, 2008, 08:10:42 PM: Dear Lighter,

If other people are afforded the grace to make mistakes (and reflect and learn by them proactively)

then

why can't that be applied to all members?

My heart is for ALL - not one.

Love, Leah

PS. Hopefully, we are done!
Title: Re: I am the recipient of this PM just 8 min ago--
Post by: Certain Hope on June 13, 2008, 08:20:35 PM: Quote from: Overcomer on June 13, 2008, 08:10:11 PM
Izzy: I am sorry. It probably deserved a thread of it's own. I agree. Why would someone even care if you did diss someone else?? Oh well, sorry to hijack....and I do feel like I know you more than Adam...

I think it did, too, Izzy... deserve being addressed and deserve being clarified.

Sometimes these conflicts tend to get all rolled up into one big glob.

Glad you pointed out that your glob was separate from the other globs on the board...
and that you don't appreciate being gossipped about.

It's said that we teach people how to treat us.
Well, we can't accomplish that if we just stay silent and never say, "whoa!"

Love,
Carolyn
Title: Re: I am the recipient of this PM just 8 min ago--
Post by: Izzy_*now* on June 13, 2008, 08:25:24 PM: Quote
I think it had something to do with apologizing for getting ourselves caught gossiping...

vs......

owning up to gossiping and promising not to do it again.

::scratching head::

Thank you lighter

I am glad that you can tell the difference.

Many "sorrys' handed out are more related to being caught, than for committing the act.

There is another incident in my life that happened some 4 years ago. I have forgotten it, for the hurt, but not for the fact that it makes for a funny story. Because the other party didn't apologize, she has voiced to another person that she is 'afraid' of me. I expect she wouldn't feel that way, still, had she apologized. (It was about the possibility of her being charged with assault.)

One day, too, I will be laughing at Ami. Perhaps I can start right now and get it over with.

Izzy

(http://www.slrkelowna.ca/haha.gif)
Title: Re: I am the recipient of this PM just 8 min ago--
Post by: lighter on June 13, 2008, 08:25:57 PM: It's OK, Leah.

Extending the same grace, we, ourselves would like to receive....

is a lovely concept.

I just don't beleive in forgiving people, who haven't asked for it esp if they intend to keep commiting the same offense, without pause.

I think I've niggled all the clarity out of this I'm going to get.

Thanks.
Lighter
Title: Re: I am the recipient of this PM just 8 min ago--
Post by: Certain Hope on June 13, 2008, 08:34:12 PM: I am pretty sure you have, Lighter.

I hear you.
Title: Re: I am the recipient of this PM just 8 min ago--
Post by: Leah on June 13, 2008, 08:35:22 PM: Thing is Lighter,

We don't know -- just maybe this incident with spark off a change -- "all things to the good"

Sometimes it takes something like what has occurred to cause a person to reflect deeply, and that can be to good effect.

Well, that is sincerely my heart and hope, always.

Ami did apologize and even openly proclaimed that she is flawed and wishes to build character.

So, yes, my heart is filled with grace and compassion -- for ALL not just one.

Love, Leah
Title: Re: I am the recipient of this PM just 8 min ago--
Post by: changing on June 13, 2008, 08:36:50 PM: Deer Izzy-

You are such a Brainiac- not only regarding computers , but you discern the mechanics and dynamics of situations so well- I often feel foolish and grateful when I read your posts , as your exceeding good sense is quite an education!!!!

Your explanations of views and insights, without heat, are compelling. And your self-appraisals powerful. We are blessed to have you, and I want to emulate your exquisite example of mind, heart and good manners - showing respect, thoughtfulness, good manners and sincerity- we all need and deserve this.

You are not simply a Brainiac but a precious person with dignity and humanity, deserving of respect and fair play, in all aspects of your life.

Love and Respect,

Changing
Title: Re: I am the recipient of this PM just 8 min ago--
Post by: Gabben on June 13, 2008, 08:46:57 PM: I'm not taking sides...just wondering if anyone here has stopped to ask Ami how she is feeling right about now?

I know how Izzy feels.

I know how Changing feels.

I know how others feel.

We all gossip, fact we all make mistakes, myself included, fact.

So, what about Ami...At the risk of having tomatoes thrown at me, I still ask, is she not entitled to some dignity?

After all...We are only human .....Well, at least us non-N's.

Lise
Title: Re: I am the recipient of this PM just 8 min ago--
Post by: lighter on June 13, 2008, 08:59:46 PM: Izzy... I know that lady who grabbed your chair and pushed you, really upset you.

You never received an apology for it, and.....

you deserved one.

You may deserve one on this thread...

and perhaps an explanation.

I don't think you'll recieve it.....

and that's a shame.

Which brings me to.....

part of our journey is giving up hope.

Hope that we can make sense, out of non sense.

Hope that people can do better than they're doing.

At the end of the day....

I calm myself with the belief, that everyone is doing the best they can.

::shrug::

If they could do better...

they would.

And so, it's true for us all.

::slapping self::

Sorry about that, Izzy..... sometimes I take the long long way round.

Lighter
Title: Re: I am the recipient of this PM just 8 min ago--
Post by: changing on June 13, 2008, 09:03:29 PM: Lighter you are right- and COOL!

Hope you get a sunny nap in your garden tomorrow- you deserve it!!

C.
Title: Re: I am the recipient of this PM just 8 min ago--
Post by: CB123 on June 13, 2008, 09:05:31 PM: Question:

Is the actual activity of gossiping about another member of the board (any member of the board) helpful to the board as a whole? Back to Darren's post: is this activity for the purpose of joining or dividing the group? Or, to speak in Biblical terms, is this speech for the purpose of building up or tearing down?

For anyone to get caught in the embarassing position of gossiping about someone else is a SEVERE MERCY (to quote C.S. Lewis). Every opportunity to turn one's life around is a severe mercy. A necessary mercy. Ami's belief system teaches that everything that has transpired on the board up to this point was designed to bring her to this very place--because the damage that gossip will do to her inner self is far beyond anything that any one person on this board can do to her.

Well meaning friends cannot bear to see friends hurt. We want to rush in and stanch the wound, instead of letting it cleanse itself naturally. I can imagine that Ami is feeling badly--but it isnt a wound to the death. Unless her friends rush in and cover it up and let it fester.

Do you all realize how truly malignant this kind of stuff is? I see a lot of whitewashing of something that is very insidious. Izzy is putting it out there for the sunshine to show it up. How else does it get cleaned up? Ami is caught up in something that is going to sabotage her future happiness unless someone confronts her with it. How is it love to not do that?

I am serious, you guys. I am really serious. This is not an attack on Ami. We are all grown ups here--it's time to act like it.

CB
Title: Re: I am the recipient of this PM just 8 min ago--
Post by: Gabben on June 13, 2008, 09:09:54 PM: Quote from: CB123 on June 13, 2008, 09:05:31 PM

I am serious, you guys. I am really serious. This is not an attack on Ami. We are all grown ups here--it's time to act like it.

We are also all wounded here, perhaps it is time to show some compassion, I know God would.

Lise
Title: Re: I am the recipient of this PM just 8 min ago--
Post by: Certain Hope on June 13, 2008, 09:15:38 PM: Lise,

I don't know how to show compassion to someone I don't trust... that's part of it...

and I also don't know how to show compassion without enabling more damaging behavior.

What can we do?

Love,
Carolyn
Title: Re: I am the recipient of this PM just 8 min ago--
Post by: Overcomer on June 13, 2008, 09:23:14 PM: My point earlier was................this whole sordid thing has gotten so out of hand you either laugh or cry. I laugh............but it is not funny ha ha laughter...it is OMG you have got to be kidding laughter. It is why oh why would this "thing" keep going and going and going...........this energizer bunny take on a life of it's own gang war on a emotional healing board???
Title: Re: I am the recipient of this PM just 8 min ago--
Post by: Izzy_*now* on June 13, 2008, 09:23:58 PM: Didn't G_d say

"My thoughts are not your thoughts and My ways are not your ways"

I would like to leave G_d out of this and
as far as I am concerned...... Ami can stew in her own juices, if she is truly sorry, for committing a sin against me and not apolgiizing for it!
Ami's belief system teaches that everything that has transpired on the board up to this point was designed to bring her to this very place--because the damage that gossip will do to her inner self is far beyond anything that any one person on this board can do to her.
Thank you CB, for that wording.

Izzy
Title: Re: I am the recipient of this PM just 8 min ago--
Post by: Gabben on June 13, 2008, 09:25:22 PM: Carolyn,

You have the gift of tact and grace...did you know that?

Anyways....I know exactly what you mean. I have been suffering from the same question with my own lifetime enemies.

It seems that we are in a quagmire here. There are people on the board who we do not trust because they clearly violate us time and time again.

So, then what do we do? Especially, when we want to trust someone?

My guess is that I have to reach to love them...I have a feeling that many here have reached to love...but, it did not work.

Perhaps, I am just projecting....when I make a mistake I am in the confessional confessing it and asking for God's Mercy as well as for His grace so that I will not hurt others in the very ways that I have been hurt....and, yet I still fall and have to accept that others are not going to be as merciful with me as God is.

I completely understand.

How do we trust?

There was much in CB's post that I applauded to. I also just know that hammering someone with the ganging up approach and the shoving with shame into a corner can actually work against that person rather than for them. (in some cases.)

I dunno....I just dunno.

These are just my thoughts and words.

Lise
Title: Re: I am the recipient of this PM just 8 min ago--
Post by: lighter on June 13, 2008, 09:25:58 PM: CB....

brilliant.

Truly.

How is it helping, if we enable our friends to remain mired?

If we relieve the shame, that may turn catalyst....?

How will they ever transcend self defeating behaviors?

Lighter
Title: Re: I am the recipient of this PM just 8 min ago--
Post by: Certain Hope on June 13, 2008, 09:29:20 PM: I appreciate your thoughts and words, Lise. Thank you.

Out of respect for Izzy, I'll leave it at that for now and consider a different thread re: trust, maybe?

I don't know.

Love,
Carolyn
Title: Re: I am the recipient of this PM just 8 min ago--
Post by: Leah on June 13, 2008, 09:41:38 PM: For clarification only:

From a genuine compassionate heart for Ami, I actually, quite boldly I feel, sent a brief note with the following wording:

"Do you think that this has happened for a reason?

Maybe, God is trying to show you something?"

I do NOT believe in ENABLING behavior, in fact, supported by two threads on the subject - which remain on the 'What Helps' board (March 12, 2007 & January 25, 2008)

I DO have witnessed ENABLING and RE-INFORCING behavior occurring here on this board, but that is an altogether different matter entirely.

Please note: I am too tired (drained) to discuss this, indeed, I do not see the need for me to discuss this further, and so, respectfully, I ask for no response. Please let it stand.

Love, Leah

http://www.voicelessness.com/disc3//index.php?topic=7994.msg128929#msg128929 (http://www.voicelessness.com/disc3//index.php?topic=7994.msg128929#msg128929)

http://www.voicelessness.com/disc3//index.php?topic=8005.0 (http://www.voicelessness.com/disc3//index.php?topic=8005.0) Enabling - Is It Really Ever Helpful?
Title: Re: I am the recipient of this PM just 8 min ago--
Post by: Hopalong on June 13, 2008, 10:13:22 PM: Hi Lise,

I believe the severe mercy that CB described IS compassion. A kind that is big and whistly, not cuddly. But it is my vision of the big unblinking love that god would be.

That level of accountability...

Not wanting someone shamed. Wanting them liberated.

love
Hops
Title: Re: I am the recipient of this PM just 8 min ago--
Post by: lighter on June 13, 2008, 11:21:53 PM: Did I tell you....

I really missed your voice, Hops.

Lighter
Title: Re: I am the recipient of this PM just 8 min ago--
Post by: Izzy_*now* on June 13, 2008, 11:26:54 PM: That's weird--well maybe not.

I was here and there was a post from Ami about "CB's false piety" and now it's gone. Poof! Penn and Teller?

Well maybe it isn't so strange, nor magic, a computer moofie and a click on DELETE and a person never said it!
Title: Re: I am the recipient of this PM just 8 min ago--
Post by: lighter on June 14, 2008, 01:44:20 AM: lol... Izzie... you're funny tonight.

Lighter
Title: Re: I am the recipient of this PM just 8 min ago--
Post by: Ami on June 14, 2008, 08:13:10 AM: It really, truly is OK if everyone on here scorns me, Carolyn, Hops, Amber, CB. I see it and feel it. You have made your point.It is loud and clear, I get it.
I have to be "me". That was my goal,from the beginning, with the"moaning "posts. I had to find me . I was not liked by you then and I am not liked ,now.
I cared, then, as much as I do, now.
I have a passion and not one of you will deter me from it.
I know where I want to go and who I want to be.
I will pursue that until I can face what I need to face, in myself and others. Then, I will be free to go or stay,in life, everywhere. Ami
Title: Re: I am the recipient of this PM just 8 min ago--
Post by: Leah on June 14, 2008, 08:31:12 AM: Not 'everyone' on here, dear Ami,

Your words of "I know where I want to go and who I want to be"

are tuly Self empowering.

And I do so believe that with your new strength, and courage and determination, you can walk the journey and arrive and be.

Standing on your own beautiful two feet.

Very best wishes to you on your exciting journey.

"God Bless You"

Love to you,

Leah
Title: Re: I am the recipient of this PM just 8 min ago--
Post by: Ami on June 14, 2008, 08:40:09 AM: Thank you, Leah
I have so much love in my life,from people who love me FOR me, as I am. You, James, Bill, SS all stood up for me. I am so thankful and that shows me that I AM worthy of love, not an old discarded thing, as my M said.
I can feel and take in people's love and that is new for me.Being loved and giving love is where it is at in life. The more whole and healed I am, the more love I can give and recieve. That is life for me, life abundantly.
Thank you, again, Leah, for your love. Ami
Title: Re: I am the recipient of this PM just 8 min ago--
Post by: Overcomer on June 14, 2008, 10:24:52 AM: We are ALL worthy of love. Not those on the right or those on the left. ALL. We ALL make mistakes. We all are imperfect humans who have been involved with narcissistic people who stole our sense of self. We are learning by doing. And sometimes we do it WRONG!!!! I love you ALL....Kelly

(again, sorry to hijack your thread, Iz)
Title: Re: I am the recipient of this PM just 8 min ago--
Post by: Leah on June 14, 2008, 10:48:36 AM: Quote from: Overcomer on June 14, 2008, 10:24:52 AM
We are ALL worthy of love. Not those on the right or those on the left. ALL. We ALL make mistakes. We all are imperfect humans who have been involved with narcissistic people who stole our sense of self. We are learning by doing. And sometimes we do it WRONG!!!! I love you ALL....Kelly

(again, sorry to hijack your thread, Iz)

Yes, ((( Kelly ))) and thank you for your precious words of wisdom.

Indeed, I resonate with accord as you have clearly expressed of my heart - that we ALL fall short, ALL get it wrong, ALL do it wrong - daily.

And, we are ALL worthy of love.

Love to ALL

Leah x

Edit in: again, I wish to clarify:

I believe and practice, prefer, a healthy outlook of life: Admitting ones wrong doing - Apologizing (with genuine remorse) for ones wrong doing - with a real hope of restoration, healing, and growth.

- and the Acceptance of a person's genuine apology.

Which I believe is in contrast to - any Enabler and any Enabled person - simply enact in unison a seemingly perpetual merry-go-round or carousel of existence.
Title: Re: I am the recipient of this PM just 8 min ago--
Post by: CB123 on June 14, 2008, 11:25:53 AM: ALL fall short, ALL get it wrong, ALL do it wrong - daily.

You can tell from my post on another thread that I agree with this statement completely.

Now to push it to the point of discomfort (which is, after all, where the growth is!):

If ALL fall short, or get it wrong, what is the remedy? What is the next step after the realization that we got it wrong?

Admitting it. The growth doesnt come until we admit it. For as long as we pull the covers over our heads and refuse to see it, we are stuck there--and it skews our growth.

Some things are hard to see. They are genuinely gray areas and we struggle and struggle to untangle all that contributes to the grayness. The process of admitting our part in it is truly difficult.

Some things are obvious. When you take something that doesnt belong to you, it should be obvious that we got it wrong. When you cheat on your income taxes. Etc.

Okay, I'm putting on my hip-boots.

When you gossip about someone else, when you send PM's behind the scenes conjecturing about someone else's motives to a third party that doesnt need to know what you are thinking--that is getting it wrong.

A PM that wonders aloud if Izzy is dissing Lighter is wrong.

Pointing out that other people also do things wrong is not actually supporting Ami. It feels like it--because we co-N's instinctively cover up for those we care for (and by saying that, I am in no way inferring that Ami is an N. I am pointing out our own failings.)

I think that we are at a critical juncture in our community: what does the community say about activities that are hurtful to the community? It's not really about who those comments are aimed at, but rather whether or not the community justifies that kind of comment based on who is making it, or why they have made it.

Several members have already posted that they are reluctant to share because they are afraid of being on the receiving end of that kind of comment. So, some are being rendered voiceless out of fear. Does the freedom to gossip overrule the freedom to feel safe from judgment when one is sharing one's heart? I would think that, on a board of this type, freedom to share one's heart would trump.

Are we, as a board, saying that the person who gossips should not have to endure judgment for their activity, while the person who wants to share their heart about personal struggles should fight their own way through their feelings of being judged? Tayana's need to share about her struggles with her mother without the fear of judgment should take precedence over the desire to gossip about another member.

You may think I am belaboring this point. I'm not. We are damned uncomfortable calling a spade a spade. This is the rock-bottom issue in our dealings with our N's. Ami has struggled all her life with calling her mother's activities wrong. She has spent years internalizing her mother's skewed values, to her own detriment. It does happen. It has happened to all of us--not just Ami. It's the reason we feel as though our lives were eaten up by our N's.

Skirmishes are bound to happen on the board, as well as in 3D life. But there is something about gossip that is like a little worm that eats the heart out of a relationship. If the board decides to applaud the life of that worm, to call it "freedom" or "reclaiming our voice", it is not a small thing. I don't think any of us realize how large the worm can grow if it is fed or justified.

I appeal to Biblical principles, not out of false piety. I am plainly not pious. But I am intimately acquainted with the belief system and values of many that have participated in this conflict. What point is it to plead with you using my belief system? You have your own beliefs and they are more than adequate to guide you away from the practice of gossip and into transparency.

I have found in the midst of all this, how much I truly care for the board and the people here. How sad I would be for it to be gone. How much I would miss the voices that are, at this point, contemplating going silent. I guess that's why I have stuck my neck out and posted--possibly risking getting it chopped off in the process. Or maybe to do otherwise makes me feel too much like a bystander, a collaborator. I don't know. I hope you all will take it seeing the intent behind it.

Much love,
CB
Title: Re: I am the recipient of this PM just 8 min ago--
Post by: Leah on June 14, 2008, 11:53:13 AM: Admitting it. The growth doesnt come until we admit it. For as long as we pull the covers over our heads and refuse to see it, we are stuck there--and it skews our growth.

Exactly, as I have posted previously, and believe with a healthy outlook of life: Admitting it - Apologizing (with genuine remorse) - with a real hope of restoration, healing, and growth.

In contrast, any Enabler and any Enabled person - simply enact in unison a seemingly perpetual merry-go-round or carousel of existence.

Love to ALL

Leah
Title: Re: I am the recipient of this PM just 8 min ago--
Post by: Hopalong on June 14, 2008, 12:54:15 PM: (I'm trying to leave for a while so should stop reading, but didn't want to go without saying this...)

Ami, I have tried many times to approach you with love and compassion. I'm sorry you haven't seen it. Maybe I am not capable of reaching you. Scorn? No. Who am I to scorn anybody? I do get frustrated with you, though. That's not hate or scorn. It's just frustration. Likely I frustrate you too. And others. I don't expect everybody to adore me all the time. That wouldn't be reality.

I think one indicator of how we're doing in community is how inflammatory our language can get. Taking ourselves so seriously that there's no such thing as "content" or "annoyed", for example -- instead we've got: ecstasy, agony, love, loathing. All 4. :shock:

I claim for you and me and all of us all the nuances we're entitled to, as whole human beings.

I hope you continue to grow and heal, here and in your 3D life. Most of all, I hope you find happiness.

Now I really am going to stop posting. I need to detach for a while.

with love,
Hops
Title: Re: I am the recipient of this PM just 8 min ago--
Post by: debkor on June 14, 2008, 01:04:04 PM: Hey Hops,

I will miss you.

Love
Deb
Title: Re: I am the recipient of this PM just 8 min ago--
Post by: Izzy_*now* on June 14, 2008, 01:08:25 PM: Hello all

I appreciate the posts, but for those of Ami.

She still does not get it! PMing whomever with an accusation about me and sending me a copy! Accidently according to her! Only she knows, but---

---she did not apologize for being a gossip about me, or indicate how she arrived at that conclusion.

Her posts are all about her. I find that significant! I also find it significant that I have never seen a post from her to another member with advice, suggestions, support in a paragraph or two or three.

She cannot bring herself to apologize to me, yet uses my thread to talk about herself. That's nerve! One pathetic post naming the people who don't like her. Poor Ami! Then suddely a post about how much love she has in her life: again naming people. This is crazymaking, on my thread.

My name is missing from both posts which is fine with me. I expect it only when she apologizes for the gossip.

I appreciate this comment on the situation:

Quote
But there is something about gossip that is like a little worm that eats the heart out of a relationship. If the board decides to applaud the life of that worm, to call it "freedom" or "reclaiming our voice", it is not a small thing. I don't think any of us realize how large the worm can grow if it is fed or justified.

Thank you CB. What a good analogy, but I have only a 1 bedroom apartment. Space is limited

Izzy

Voicelessness and Emotional Survival Message Board

Voicelessness and Emotional Survival => Voicelessness and Emotional Survival Message Board => Topic started by: Izzy_*now* on June 13, 2008, 12:45:27 PM

Voicelessness and Emotional Survival => Voicelessness and Emotional Survival Message Board => Topic started by: Izzy_now on June 13, 2008, 12:45:27 PM