Voicelessness and Emotional Survival Message Board
Voicelessness and Emotional Survival => Voicelessness and Emotional Survival Message Board => Topic started by: Anonymous on August 25, 2004, 10:43:38 AM
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I joined Narcissisticabuse@yahoo.com a time ago. After a short time had past, I very much arrived at the conclussion that it was a bit of a 'shop front' for dear old Sam Vaknin and in particular, his book! I should actually have use the Doctor part of his title, but that again would be missleading, so I won't!
Anyway having joined, every day I'd receive 2 or 3 e-mails from Sam/narcissisticabuse.com pointing out some more information about Narcissism and Narcissists. All very good stuff and very real to my situation. I found them all very useful and enlightning! So much so, now nearly everyone around was a Narcissist!!! My friends, family, ex wife, collegues, children, girlfriends...etc, were all Narcissists!! Jezzz I was being over-run by them....they were everywhere!!! Why? Cos Sam said so!!
Vertually every conversation I was having with people, I'd privately and in the background be assessing whether they were one or not! But as time went on, I started to have difficulties with Sam. You see, according to statistics, only around 2 percent of the population are thought to suffer with NPD. But with Sam Vaknin, bloody nearly everyone had it!! Every little thing a person did could be described as Narcissistic and NPD according to him!! Every day I receive more mails drawing my attention to something and then the answer could invariably be found within the scriptures of his book......if only I'd buy it!!
But that became the very reason why I wouldn't buy the damn thing! Not because he is totally wrong in his conclussions, but because he has soooooooo many of them! His head must be full of the same stuff that Mccarthy had back in th fifties! Under every bed was a red commi bastard, but there wasn't! Same goes for Sam, but there isn't loads of Narcissists with NPD, there's only a few percent!
So I got to thinking; Sam's a pretty shrewd cookie! A self confessed Narcissist with NPD........who's making a pile of money out of telling people he is one!! Very Narcissistic I know, but never the less so! This guy is making shed loads of cash convincing people that their lives are plagued with Narcissists! Every one we know from our families to our friends, are NPDers who are sh.tting all over us! Or are they?
Could it be that sites such as narcissisticabuse.com and Sam have a deal going? Could it be that poor helpless victims of abuse in search of answers are being duped into believing things that aren't so? Could it be that he is using his well tried and tested helping hand to people who are in distress in order to make money out of their plights? Surely not! He's a Doctor for christ sake, isn't he? Sam would never do a thing like that.....take advantage of other people's problems when they're down? No, never!
Not for one moment am I suggesting the same for this site! I've never once been contacted by John or anyone else in connection with books or money! But there should be laws against people being exploited when they are most vunerable! Looking for explanations on the net for things that have gone wrong in our relationships is one fast way of making a buck............for some!
I fear that too many people are being ripped off right now by people who pretend to have answers to problems that they don't really have!! We experience bad relationships and not so pleasant people during the course of our lives. It doesn't mean that these people suffer with NPD! According to Sam, if you so much as shake a persons hand to firmly, they're Narcissists with NPD! He does so, because it is in his financial interests to do so, not yours!
I left the aforementioned site when I began to question the merits of what the owners of it were attempting to do! Actually I was silenced and everything I wrote was removed for bring the question up! Very Narcissistic......and from people claiming to be helping people suffering from such exposure!
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The above was me, I forgot to log in :lol:
Onyx
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Well I'm feeling glad I found this site first guest! Sounds like a worrying experience you've had. You're unlikely to find anything similar here, I haven't met many fans of Sam's here.
Out of curiosity, who is John? Do you mean Richard as in Grossman? But I'd love to know who John is. Sorry my curiosity is a disgrace!
Have you searched for N books on Amazon? I did and was pretty amazed to find that Sam virtually appears with his recommended reading on every search. I wrote to Amazon and complained. They said they weren't responsible for reader recommendations. Ah well, I tried! P
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ah it was you Onyx/David! So who is John?? Now I'm really curious! :D P
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In haste I posted and now repent :D ! You're right, I got it wrong, it was Richard that I was referring to and not some John geezer! :oops:
Onyx AKA David
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awww....so it wasn't one of those fascinating Freudian slips? John isn't a family member or a teacher or ... or... darn...and I thought you might have something there :D But anyway, can I join your 'we don't like sam very much' club please? I'm up for it. Cheers, P
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You are bang on right Portia! His material appears everywhere! What makes me laugh so much is that he's a self-confessed Narcissist with NPD who makes so much money in the process of helping others! When in actual fact, he's helping himself to pot loads of their money because they're vunerable and will believe anything they're told by a guy who profess's to be a Doctor!!!!!
So I see a number of sites claiming to be helping people, when in fact they're not! So many times I've read posts on other sites from their mentors with a hidden agenda! Immediately they accept whatever a new person to their site has written as being as a result of being exposed to NPD! That person believing what they've just be told is 'Gospel', then go on to blame whatever person that is the cause of their distress as being a Narcissist with NPD!! I wonder how many then rush off to Amazon and peddle the myth even further?
I refer to this kind of thing as 'Pinning the tail on the Donkey'! Sam gets everyone to believe that they're here because they've suffered at the hands of a Narcissist with NPD. More often than not, the abused person hasn't, but Sam makes money convincing them that the have! The guy is brilliant at extracting dosh out of people for nothing! It's classic Narcissism and he bloody well knows it! Convincing a poor victim that it's really there fault and not his.......soooooo Narcissistic!!
Sam's a damn good salesman with NPD, nothing else!
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You're such a 'wag' :wink: Portia........lets form the club and spill the beans! But then again, he'll probably make even more cash by adding our disapproval of him to his book :lol:
David
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Yeah, I went through the "SAM" experience too. After a while I decided he was full of poo. Even though some things he said seemed correct, I got the idea that he was a high powered salesman after trying to find stuff on "N" and seeing his bloody books all over creation.
And then I decided that this guy is a self professed "N" and why would I deal with a "N" in any category for any reason. I just wish there was more real info out there and that "SAM"'s crap didn't come up in every search. If you ask me, this guy is a menace to society. But he certainly knows how to get "N" supply. He admits that he's getting "N" supply, so why would I want to give him more.
I say off to the gallows with him!!!!!!! But then he would be the center of attention.
N
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about to log off (hey maybe I'll use that as my new swear phrase - just "log off willya?") but wanted to say, thanks both for the laughs as I go Nassim and David, in fact:
ha ha ha ha ha :D ha ha ha!
and Nassim (on the other thread), lovely name, nothing wrong with it, I'll have it, you want Portia instead? :D
Bye for now P
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I saw Sam V's website advertising his book long before he was popular. He sent me an email inviting me to the site. He didn't know me, but he was probably sending emails to lots of people. There were lengthy extracts from his book. I read some of it, thinking it was partially quite interesting but mostly a bunch of wild generalizations. I didn't think he would get ONE PERSON to buy that book. Guess I was wrong.
One thing that lowered his credibility in my eyes was that he was dishonorably discharged from the Israeli army or something. This was according to him. (I might have got that slightly wrong but I'm not going to research it.) That was a red flag to me. From experience I know that some Israelis are super egotistical and simply can't be taken seriously. Not all of them! But he seemed like one of this type.
As to whether he's ripping people off, well, caveat emptor.
bunny
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I just wish there was more real info out there and that "SAM"'s crap didn't come up in every search. If you ask me, this guy is a menace to society. But he certainly knows how to get "N" supply. He admits that he's getting "N" supply, so why would I want to give him more.
If you want real info on narcissism here is a book that is truly excellent:
Narcissism and Intimacy by Marion Solomon
bunny
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Onyx,
I understand where you are coming from about Sam…
I received value in Sam V.’s writings only inasmuch as what they revealed about NPD, if one is already knowingly dealing with someone with the disorder (which I was). And I didn’t always buy (as in believe) what I read in general as well, because I also found a lot of what appeared as over-drama around his work. His focus seemed to be the psychopathic/malignant narcissist (where they are dif. kinds), so maybe that is why, but still, some things seemed over-hyped...
Anyway, I took bits and pieces of what was of value to me at the time, and left the rest.
We experience bad relationships and not so pleasant people during the course of our lives. It doesn't mean that these people suffer with NPD! According to Sam, if you so much as shake a persons hand to firmly, they're Narcissists with NPD! He does so, because it is in his financial interests to do so, not yours!
Yes, definitely true. For example, I relate very well to a lot of what those on this message board, who were raised by an N parent, say about feeling voiceless, invisible, over-criticized, emotionally abused, etc., and I did not grow up with an N parent (my N experience was with a dating partner). A very overwhelmed parent with her own other troubles, but not an N.
I can see the difference clearly, and I can see what you are saying in that Sam V’s work might try to give a nudge in convincing someone like me, otherwise.
I think he should stop writing about Nism and start writing Steven King type horror, or mystery type books :wink: I think he has the perfect mind for it, the inner melodrama, and I have to give it to him that he is one heck of a writer…. At least that way he’d be getting the attention he craves, have an outlet for his Nism energy, and not be hurting anyone. I don’t think he’d be convinced to shift over though :wink:
But I will tell you, one thing that makes the little hairs on the back on my neck stand up, is hearing how articulate in speech he is (radio interviews) how marvelously intelligent, and 'normal' he sounds, witnessing what a brilliant writer he is…. all adjacent to the the torturous, ill thoughts of his inner self…
You just never can tell about a person, and a woman could be easily fooled and lured by him and his outer persona, not to realize until it is too late for deep damage, how profoundly ill he is…. So in that way, I guess it is really a good thing that he sticks to writing so blatantly about his illness and keeps it out in the open….
BT
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hahahaha :lol: ! I don't think he's so much a 'Stephen King' type writer, more in the same mould as L Ron Hubbard the creater of Scientology (think that's how you spell it)! Same kind of thing......horror stories, but at least King has never professed his writings to be anything else other than pure fiction! :lol:
As with Hubbard, Vaknin ties into people who are vunerable and want to believe that he has the answers! Now to a point, he probably does! But it's when he insists upon labelling every relationship problem as being that of an innocent victim being in a relationship with an NPDer, that sucks (lovely American expression)! He deliberately hijacks some very confussed poor soul and then convinces them that they're in a relationship with a person who has Nacissistic Personality Disorder!
I kid you not, I received today two emails from site I mentioned, clearly plugging his book! And in order to appeal to the masses, he just about places Mother Theresa and Adolf Hitler in the same category! If it suites his purpose to sell his book, then the Pope is Satan because he once had a dirty thought and therefore it follows that he's a Narcissist with NPD!
I know the above is a lie and not true! I just use it to stretch the same kind of points that our dear old Sam uses! And just as with all magicians, Sam the Narcissist manages to become king slayer of Narcissists! He sodding well is one in the first place!! How many times will a radio show host invite a self confessed rappist of children into their studio for a nice little chat so they can explain how they lured the kids into the situation in the first place? How many people will it take before we finally crasp the point that this guy is one sick mother (another nice American word)!!!
Here with have a classic case of the 'Looney running the Asylum'.....and being paid shit loads to do it!! We even damn well run around telling him what a great guy he is and how intelligent and wise he is too!!! I can't believe how blind we humans can be to the bloody obvious!!!
I understand the lynch mob theory of dealing with known and convicted paedophiles! I don't agree with it, but I understand it! There is no known absolute cure or 100 percent guarentee that they won't do it again! At the very least, I would have no truck with one if I knew of one! I would never break bread or drink wine, so to speak, with one! I would not listen to or even eulogise any books they'd written on the said subject! These poeple are beyond pity or contempt, they're vile!
Guys like Sam are not in the above category.....but they're damned close to it! We sit at his feet and learn from the Master! We ply his ego with huge amounts of NS and lavish his bank accounts with oodles amounts of hard cash! Most of which comes directly from the misinformed souls or victims of people just like him! He and his cronies spend enormous amounts of time and money convincing people of something that they haven't got! Like some 18th century quack doctor selling the cure for everything off of the back of a flat bed buck board (think that's right), Sam moves from state to state selling watered down bourbon as cough medicine!
What's even more sick, is internet sites who fully endorse the man! So much so, they deliberately market his products under the guise of being support groups for people in distress! Don't make me laugh!!
I wish more people knew of Richard and this site! This is a forum for people who've suffered from people just like Sam Vaknin! But thank god it isn't a site run for and on behalf of him today! It's time we accepted the obvious and dissmissed this guy for being the fraud he is! It's also time for us to lift the lid of his internet support groups and groupies!! :lol:
Onyx
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and Nassim (on the other thread), lovely name, nothing wrong with it, I'll have it, you want Portia instead?
Uh, no offense, P.....but baby girl I respectfully decline. I don't think I could take the heat that you have lol!!!!!!!!!!!
David, now you know all of us Americans don't carry guns...I don't. But I agree with you on old Sam the N man...every point. You express yourself very well.
N
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Nassim
Cheers big ears :lol: I know, I know! I'm not making a slight against you, just thanking you in an English way for what you just wrote! :lol:
......and just to lighten tings up a little more round here:
What wears thick horned rimmed glasses and has a wet nose...............a short sighted Gynaecologist!!
Alas don't tell me, Sam the financial Vampire, is a Gynaecologist too!! He must be as he sure as hell is taking the urine (piss) out of most people!
Sorry if the joke offends........but I just thought it ran along with my last sentence! :wink:
Onyx
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I read up about Sam a while ago and he isn't actually a doctor at all. He was supposed to have taken an online course which automatically gives you a certificate when you finish it. He calls himself a doctor on the strength of that. Anyone could pay to take the test and do the same.
But isn't part of this disorder being a big con anyway? :?
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Gardener
Absolutely.....and as a great many people on this site would testify to!
If one links him with other Narcissistic based internet support groups, then all you really have is a 'shop front' for a con man!!!! I can't believe the integrity of people who purport to run support groups for those in distress who have been mangled as a result of being in a relationship with a Narcissist. These people are actively marketing Sam the quacks material and probably for financial gain! They are at best being dishonest in taking advantage of vunerable people!
narcissiticabuse.com is one such site. Again today I have so far received 3 more mails from them/Mr Vaknin peddling his book amongst other things. I deliberately have not removed myself from his mailing list because I'm keen to see how he and his site con people! I am also angered that they can get away with it so easily and at times when people are perhaps at their most vunerable!
It really is a terrible thing to do! Individuals who are clearly damaged as a result of being in a relationship with a Narcissist, turning to internets site for help run by a 'grade A' Narcissist with NPD!!! Out from the frying pan and into the fire!!
David
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Sam notwithstanding, my 15+ years of poking around in my psyche, trying to figure out "what's wrong with me" has led me to believe that the vast majority of "disorder specific" books (and websites, and lecutres) are phrased in such a way that 10-15% of the people end up thinking they are afflicted with something that (from a scientifcally measured perspective) strikes 1-2% of the population. As was pointed out above, we become "desperate" for something to latch onto, and then we end up reading something and saying "Yeah! That's ME! Well, kinda...." and running with it. I'm not saying that we can't extract assorted "gold nuggets" from these sources-- I just think it pays to not be "overly inclusive" in the process of self-diagnosis.
Of course, Sam Vaknin is a "marketing machine."
--Peter
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While the above announcement list IS owned by Sam Vaknin, what he sends out are not written by him, but articles gleaned from many sources, most of them available on the Internet, and many of them the result of work of qualified professionals.
It is universally common for psychology students and medical students to become convinced that they and everyone they meet has whatever disease and condition they are currently studying. The syndrome is also well-known when the popular press begins writing about some "new" disease. Doctors have acknowledged the power of suggestion for years.
Sam does not say or suggest that everyone has NPD. But it is true that every normal human being has some narcissistic qualities and behaviors. Thus it is not unlikely to glom on to a behavior or three, and make an amateur "diagnosis". This propensity passes with time.
Just trying to bring some balance into this slam thread.
Amused Observer
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Would you 'Adam and Eve it'......'Amused' joined this site and replied, in the defense of Sam Vaknin, on the same day....and not be be seen or heard from again! Now this kind of strikes moi as being a bit odd! Out of all the things one could read and express a view on from this site....'Amused' just drops by to speak up for Dr Twot! I would have used the word 'T.at', but then they're useful and Vaknin's not!!
So who have we the pleasure of reading from? Is it one of his lackies or has the.....erm....man himself condescended to lower himself posing as someone else in his self-defense?
I would also like to add that I sent a stinging e-mail in reply to the many received from narcissisticabuse.com. Immediately the three or four mails a day sent by them stopped! Any you know what....yep that's right, up pops 'Amused' and posts on here.....what a coincidence!!
At what does 'Amused' masturbate furiously about..."balance"! Well 100 percent lop sided balance in defense of Dr Who!
This guy is surrounded with publishing and media people jumping on the financial band wagon of Narcissism! For the very few amongst us who have suffered at the hands of these people, Vaknin is an afront to human decency! This is about money......and nothing else! Vaknin and his kind are self confessed Narcissists who openly agree that they have and continue to exploit people ruthlessly! Yet either him or one of his lap dogs jump to his defence on a site that clearly exists because of shit like him! 'Amused', I'm amazed that you haven't caught the irony of wankers like him! It's like Satan going to the gates of Heaven and expecting tea a muffin with God whilst asking him what all the fuss is about!!!
Vaknin needs to peddle stuff to a wider audiance than there really exists! 2 percent of the market place who suffer with NPD is not enough to make one millions! In creating a bigger audiance, in convincing the masses that their problems of that of dealing with a Narcissist, he, amongst other, are creating a stampede effect were there isn't one! He is focused on bringing as many individuals as possible to the conclussion that they are in a relationship, or have just left one, with someone suffering from NPD! Not so, it's a bloody lie! But what's new here, cos he's a bloody lie in the first place!
On a lighter note; a very good post Denmarkguy.....you've hit it pretty much on the nail!
Onyx aka David
PS....why not reveal more about yourself 'Amused'.....I'm in the open....what have you to hide?
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Hi David,
Last night I had a very, very vivid dream, that I was shrieking at my x-N dating partner, telling him that he was a flaming N, and what it was, and all the N behaviors he did. It was at some function where his friends and parents were too, and they heard it all. He burst into tears. It was a very disturbing dream, actually, and I woke up with a negative vibe, feeling emotionally hurt, too.
So then I get up, and see a single ripped out page from a newspaper, on a table in my room. I look at it curiously, and it is a full page article entitled “Narcissism-The Disease Of The 21st Century ?” Geez!!! Right after I had that dream!! I was a little freaked out for sure, wondering what was going on in that moment, and if the universe was trying to tell me something… I didn’t even have any idea as to how the article got there at first.
Only when I turned it over, I realized there was something a friend wanted me to see on the other side, and I’d put it there before going to bed. I simply picked up the opposite side. But what are the odds of a Nism article on that other side!!
Anyway, my point (there is one lol) in commenting back on this thread, was because of the content of that article. The whole thing quoted Sam Vaknin, and was based on his views of Nism. This was a local (not national) French only newspaper, in Canada. I can’t tell you how surprised I was to see that.
My point is that journalists are often doing different stories each day or week, not really having the time to delve into any one topic very deeply (unless they are doing a series). So, with the ability for very quick online research, and also saturation of Sam V. stuff out there, I’m afraid there is going to be more misconception (the over exaggeration) spread, just via the way journalism works… If the writer is really rushed, then balance of the issue can suffer. Some people will read that article and think that is what narcissism is, and they will think “wow, I didn’t know it was all around me in my life like that”. Then, they can begin to see Nism where it isn’t.
Again, I was surprised to see all of Sam V.'s words in a more smallish market- but there it was... Too bad the whole thing will continue to get perpetuated that way, too :(