Voicelessness and Emotional Survival Message Board
Voicelessness and Emotional Survival => Voicelessness and Emotional Survival Message Board => Topic started by: Certain Hope on June 17, 2008, 10:28:13 AM
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This is a topic on which I'm feeling particularly passionate... and so, I'm writing.
Have you ever been held captive?
Have you had your back against the wall and been unable to escape her verbal assault?
Have you escaped to another room for respite, only to exit that refuge and find him standing at the door, ready to pick up his monologue exactly where he left off?
I have. Both as a child and as an adult.
So often, I have felt absolutely helpless to draw a boundary and declare: I will not allow you to treat me this way anymore.
NPD-ex would insist that I sit. I wasn't allowed to stand when he'd decide to lecture me.
So I'd sit.
But, he said, I didn't sit near enough.
So he'd grasp the frame of my chair and pull me forcibly toward him.
There was no place to go.
So I'm saying now...
No Contact is a blessing to me.
I don't need anyone else to understand or approve my choice (except Dr. G, who I pray does not withdraw its availability here). Adults are allowed to make such choices, without explaining to everyone else's satisfaction.
And I don't cease to exist because I've drawn a boundary with a couple other individuals.
And I don't cease to be a valid, viable member of a group because I choose not to interact with a couple other individuals.
And... I may even choose to lock this thread at some point.
Simply because I can.
After a lifetime of not even recognizing my options... it's absolutely wonderful to apply them as I see fit with my very own eyes.
And CB... this isn't about you. I just wanted to clarify... and to acknowledge... that I don't expect anyone else to approve my own position, only to allow me to express that position. You've done that... and I thank you.
Love,
Carolyn
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I think you're learning to draw boundaries, without feeling guilt.
And that's gotta be hard.
If I'm wrong, you can clarify.
(((carolyn)))
It's OK to draw boundaries and it's OK to move them, if you should ever decide you should.
Lighter
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I think you're learning to draw boundaries, without feeling guilt.
And that's gotta be hard.
If I'm wrong, you can clarify.
You're right, Lighter. Thanks.
And it is hard, because I've never felt that I had a right to do that... till now.
These are just my own feelings.
I don't try to shove them down anyone's throat.
But I think it's wrong to try to make someone within a group responsible for withdrawing contact from others in that group.
Isn't that the same thing done within abusive families?
I'm not responsible for this group... only for my own actions within it.
I'll do my very best to interact as a mature adult...
but seriously, I don't want to be told that I'm causing the group problems by choosing No Contact with some.
(And I'm not saying that CB declared that, but I can see how that impression might be left behind.)
Hey, it's a big advance and improvement for me to not have just left the scene already.
So... while folks are considering all this big picture stuff, I just wanted to speak up for my own self... and say that it's important to me to be able to remain here, but I don't think I could do that without the No Contact option.
Carolyn
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Ahh, Carolyn.
Thank you for your disclaimer about me. Much appreciated.
I think I'll withdraw the questions about board dynamics--including the practice of NC. It produced no real dialogue and I'm afraid that in the process I tread on everyone's toes. I can't actually remove the thread though, can I??? :shock:
I want to say I have no dog in this fight--but perhaps "helping" is the sunnyside of control. I don't pretend to know even my own heart. It constantly amazes me by its intricate twists and turns.
But please know that you have my sincere respect for your position.
Much love
CB
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((((((CB)))))) Thank you for your respect.
You have my respect, as well.
I am only trying to express my position lest it bubble and boil into a wall, you know?
Absolutely no offense taken or grudge to be held... I'm just in a different place - - - a better place than before, but definitely not at my destination.
Love,
Carolyn
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I was referring to N's controlling us with 'help.'
Not you stating observations that might help the board function and heal, CB.
Lighter
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okey dokey, then...
I hope that I've clarified...
I'm not trying to clean up the board or eradicate any egregious influences from this little virtual society.
I'm not big enough or wise enough for that.
Just please allow me to assert myself in the best way I can for where I am now on my own individual little path.
Thank you.
Carolyn
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Hi Carolyn,
I have not given this thread a real read, just skimed, I wanted to say that I feel peaceful with my decisions about no contact. That feeling of safety and peace is good for me. I feel like a little kid who stood up for herself on the playground -- she feels confident with a new self-respect.
There is no controlling others...Now.... that is a statement I will need to repeat to myself many times....LOL.
But, I do have choices -- I choose no contact - And, I refuse to be made to feel guilty about my choice. There is peace in my heart now as well as goodwill towards those I choose NC with.
Lise
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Oh, thank you, Lise. I knew that you would understand.
I was feeling that newfound self-respect, too! Somehow, during the morning here, I let it slip, as a sense of old shame began to warm my ears.
That's nobody's "fault" or responsibility... just a fact of life for me where I am now.
For some reason, I'm scaring easily these days... and it is difficult for me to hear contrary opinions (disclaimer to CB again - this is not about you or in any way to suggest that you shouldn't voice your views!) about something that I've experienced as such a liberating tool!
I've talked with hundreds of folks here over the years, made my blunders and been the recipient of others', as well.
I'm not suddenly trying to build a dam and store up fetid waters.
I'm trying to express myself here just as transparently as I try to do in real life, face to face... which means, just like at work, there are some folks with whom I'm not going to establish communication and that's okay! They don't follow me into the break room or insert themselves into my conversations with others (well, one actually did - which is partly why I am where I am now!) and I don't do that to them... and all is well!
Anyhow, it seemed a simple thing to me, and nothing out of the ordinary... but then I lost sight of that, temporarily, today.
Thanks for hearing me.
Love,
Carolyn
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I was referring to N's controlling us with 'help.'
Not you stating observations that might help the board function and heal, CB.
Thanks, Lighter.
But we non-N's are certainly not immune to control issues. (I have them in abundance--they are a constant source of temptation!) And, at some point, helping becomes a form of control--no matter who is doing the helping. I hope I have laid it down quickly enough to have given it every opportunity to do good without tumbling into something unhelpful.
I wish my point of re-entry onto the board had been somewhere else in it's history. This feels bad. I am unexpectedly rained in today--a real gullywasher that makes driving hazardous. Time for some hot chocolate (the Aztec kind--spiked with chili peppers!)
Thanks Carolyn. No offense taken. I'm glad for your growth...
Love
CB
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That's the thing about offering observations that aren't uplifting....
The observations that point out unattractive behaviors.....
will never be the stuff of joy.
Lighter
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That's the thing about offering observations that aren't uplifting....
The observations that point out unattractive behaviors.....
will never be the stuff of joy.
Lighter
Not so, Lighter. I've found great joy in being enlightened about one of my many unattractive behaviors...
but only from someone who I know is walking the talk.
That means, I think you'd best be looking someone in the eye when you respond to his request for enlightenment re: himself
or
have developed a firm, longstanding relationship of trust before offering such input in a non- face2face setting.
umm... just my opinion.
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Hi Carolyn,
Not so, Lighter. I've found great joy in being enlightened about one of my many unattractive behaviors...
but only from someone who I know is walking the talk.
That means, I think you'd best be looking someone in the eye when you respond to his request for enlightenment re: himself
You know this makes so much sense. A real person who cares for you enough that they are willing to invest themselves in your life by speaking into your life, that which they know and practice. Ones whose words are powerful yet flow onto and into you like healing balm
Well said.
tt
PS I do know how it feels to be held captive while my soul is pilfered, and having no power to stop it.
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I've given advice that was tremendously joyful.... and it wasn't all sweetness and light, but the receiver was open to growth.
No assumptions about my motives were made.... I wasn't villianized for speaking my truth and they made some positive changes.
Very satisfying.... no confusion or bluster or accusations about my motives for gifting the advice.
I certainly wasn't villainized.
If our advice must be of a particular sor and only validating the status quo, sans our true feelings.....
we should keep them to ourselves?
Then, if we're moved to comment again..... we're not trying to give advice any longer.....
we'll be stating observations, if anything.
We've already been warned that our advice will be twisted into siege.
So.... do we learn how to be silent again... bc we can't get behind the bluster?
Make peace with that? Step back into the crowd and just watch..... as a silent bystander?
I'm willing to accept the answer it it's "no" and move beyond.
It certainly would shed perspective on all the bystanders who stood by and watched,
did nothing,
from our own pasts.
Lighter
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Lighter,
Each one of us already knows the answer to her own dilemma. Often, we just don't know that we know it.
When you offer truth to someone who is deeply invested in un-knowing, her "knower" tingles.
Those tingles feel good to someone who's eager for knowledge of the truth, whether it strokes her ego or not.
But to one who's determined to invent herself as pure and pristine, it's like a whack on the funny bone.
Have you been offered advice that smacked your funny bone?
Have you rejected some similar advice?
I dunno... just asking... because until you can place yourself into the shoes of someone who's being presented with valid, yet unwanted advice, you won't get it.
Love,
Carolyn
P.S. If you're talking about offering advice to N, then all bets are off.
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Each one of us already knows the answer to her own dilemma. Often, we just don't know that we know it.
When you offer truth to someone who is deeply invested in un-knowing, her "knower" tingles.
Those tingles feel good to someone who's eager for knowledge of the truth, whether it strokes her ego or not.
But to one who's determined to invent herself as pure and pristine, it's like a whack on the funny bone.
Brilliant! I like this, Carolyn.
I might express it as offering an observation, or offering my own experience, or posing an illuminating question or such, rather than "offering truth". Just because the absolutism of "truth" leaves me wary. Or perhaps, leaves me out.
But you know where that comes from. ((((Carolyn))))
hugs
Hops
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Yes, I understand, Hops... you're right. That phrasing might be more universally accepted. You UU, you :D
Love u anyhoo,
Carolyn
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Dear Hops,
My reply before was hurried and flippant. I know that you didn't take any offense, and yet I apologize... for not taking your thoughts more seriously.
I don't ever want to "flip" past your posts.
Please allow me to give this another try... (eek, that sounds formal... you know what I mean. Trying not to be flip again!)
A n y way...
I really wasn't referring to religious truth, in that post... although, as you know, I do believe in only one Truth, etc, and etc in that department (and you know from whence that comes).
I really wasn't referring to other versions of false "absolute" truth, either... for instance - all the shoulds, oughts, and advisory other-suches which often masquerade as wise advice.
Actually, I was referring to a much more undeniable sort of truth... (and this has absolutely nothing to do with this board or any member thereon or elsewhere in my personal experience; it is merely a fictional example)
For instance, when talking with someone who has zero friends/relationships, from whom people flee in terror, and whom I've only been barely tolerating out of care and consideration (and maybe even pity) because she truly is one of the most obnoxious individuals who ever walked the face of the earth...
one undeniable truth in her case is = "your attitude is destroying your ability to form healthy relationships".
That would be the sorta truth to which I'm referring here. The factual sort, substantiated by volumes of evidence and personal experience.
Other illustrations available on request.
Love,
Carolyn
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Aha. Well that makes very good sense to me.
I hope you'll tell me that kind of truth about me when you see it.
Thanks, Carolyn, for the work of creating clarity.
You are considerate to your very cells.
love to you,
Hops
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((((((Hops)))))) Like I've said... you've been a great teacher. Thanks!
Love,
Carolyn