Voicelessness and Emotional Survival Message Board
Voicelessness and Emotional Survival => Voicelessness and Emotional Survival Message Board => Topic started by: LilyCat on June 26, 2008, 03:34:28 PM
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I'm feeling worse than I've felt for the last 10 days or so. Last week and some into this week it was mostly about the N, but for the past few days it hasn't even been about him. It's been about me, just me.
I went to see my therapist and I feel worse, because it wasn't at all helpful. I didn't get to say what I really wanted to say; whatever it was I wanted from the session, I didn't get it. I needed to talk, to say some very powerful things, and I didn't get to. He actually responded too much.
This is doubly bad because I have limited funds; to go was a real decision that I needed help. I had thought maybe I'd go for the next several weeks, but I don't think I will.
I'm in such a tough place. I really am. It's not just the N, it's my whole life, now, and up until now. I have worked so hard for so long to fix myself, but I feel like I'm back at square one.
I'm really disappointed in the session. I know I can talk to him about it, but that's not the point.
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Lily, is it possible to talk to your therapist via phone and tell him that you didn't get what you wanted from your session? He might be able to work something out with you. Or you could check local universities to see if there's someone there that might provide a low cost solution for you. Have you considered talking to your doctor about your feelings of depression and hoplessness? I don't want to sound like I'm pushing drugs, but I finally got to a point where I really needed more than just talk therapy. There was a point I was curled up in my shower wanting to die, and that was the bottom for me. I finally made an appointment to see my doctor for my depression and anxiety. It did help.
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hi LilyC
I am sorry for your plight. Ah! a talkative therapist!! Are you paying to listen to him and don't get a word of YOUR truth in edgewise?
My therapist did that, wandered off the path with her dialogue and I could hear the clicking of money falling into the gutter. I pictured that the 60 minute hour was but 50 mintes and she had control and when I was searching for something to say, even I was wasting my time, for fear she would take over.
When I reached a certain point, when I knew she would NEVER know me, I stopped. I wasn't going to buy her next sporty car!
Either I learned something from her, or I knew it all along, but I did, and am doing, the rest on my own!
I certainly understand your predicament, but if you think he is good, then just tell him it is his time you are paying for and you have numerous things you HAVE TO talk about and so little time each visit.
Good Luck
Izzy
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Hi LilyCat...
What do you think you need? more talking? You can talk here - or even over on the member's thread - to your heart's content. Maybe the member's thread is better for that kind of talking...
You said you're in a tough place - and that it's about you now; your whole life - but that's still pretty general... do you think you can explain in more detail?
Do you want or need hugs? Do you want advice, or do you just need someone to LISTEN?
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I agree, LilyCat,
You can talk, here. Why not give it a shot? Ami
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((((((((((Lily))))))))))) I am so sorry you're feeling worse.
It must be really difficult trying to deal with this while at work.
Please let me know if there's anything I can do to help...
maybe even writing out your thoughts and feelings - just furiously letting it all come out onto paper - might help?
I am praying for you now. If you want to and it's possible, you could come back here from the library computer, so you're not trying to post from work about this painful stuff. However it works best for you... just know you're not alone.
Love,
Carolyn
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Thank you all. You are all so wonderful.
Therapist is fine, he just happened to talk/respond more than normal. What he said was good, it's just that I never got to dump the whole ball of wax. This week and last week are the first time I've seen him in individual in 5 years; I've just been doing grou because of the $$$. Believe me, he's been very good good to me financially. I think perhaps he was eager to respond, that's all.
I would probably go back for a few more, but I'm holding off until I set things up with the pastoral counselor from the university. I don't know what she charges, etc. But I'm excited about seeing her and eager to hear what she has to say. At first I perceived going just for the spiritual aspect of things, but she has impressive psych credentials as well as theological ones; her research/work have focused on where the two connect. I'm thinking it will be a very good fit for me. And, she'd done a lot of work on NPD. Her doctoral dissert was on some component of it, I forget what. I think a new voice (ha, ha) and perspective might be very helpful.
Tayana, thank you. I'm on wellbutrin, at my doctor's suggestion. He's just great. And the drug has been great, too. It's seen me very successfully through the death of my cat, my father, two friends, the N pastor end-debacle and subsequent feelings, and the death of another friend. I can't believe it did all that. But for some reason it might be time to up the dose.
I can't write now -- I have to run home because plumbers are either there or will be there. Will write when I can. Wasn't aware of the members' thread, what is that? (Don't have time to investigate now.)
Anyway, thanks to all of you. I feel the hugs and concern, it helps a lot. A WHOLE lot!
Gotta run -- but, hugs! And more thanks. You've definitely helped.
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awww (((lily)))
I am sorry.. but sometimes when you are feeling worse (for me) I feel the great need to talk also.. and I have.. to anyone that will listen.... when they could not.. I would write it then go back and read it.. till it was all out..I would add things that I did not before and see all little things that were coming together... solving... what was troubling me...
Sometimes it gets worse before it gets better and the hard part is now.... after.. is healing.... it will get better...
Love
Deb
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Hey Lily....
I never felt all that great when I left sessions, either.
Journaling helped more than anything..... the therapist was good for validating the things I was working through.
Did you at least get some validation?
Lighter
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Thanks, guys. I really, really cannot tell you how much your support has helped. Just knowing you jumped right in was very helpful.
Only have a minute now, but I just wanted to check in and say I'm doing a little better today. Not that the issues have cleared up -- but I had a lightbulb moment last night when I remembered that often for me, (significant) unmet needs feel the same as depression. This is a relatively recent (last few years) discovery and I often have trouble discerning what's going on. That clicked things right in place. I think there's some of both, but I think what I was really feeling was something not being met.
Before that moment I tried to write for me/you, but stopped. It ended up being all about my career disaster of the last several years.
I will try to write more when I have time, but in the meanwhile, I just wanted to say thanks, and let you know I'm doing a little better.
(((((everyone)))))) You are all very special to me.
LC
LC
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WTF -- now I'm wondering if it wasn't that I'm getting my period. Which I haven't had in a year-and-half. Thought I was through with all that.
Could be wrong, but...let's just say a few possible clues.
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Umm... they can be tricky little rascals, Lily. Coming and going, hiding intermittently... and then when arriving back on the scene, bringing an emotional storm in their nasty little kit-bags. :shock:
Hugs,
Carolyn
P.S. on edit... found something to attach, to make you smile (I hope!) Wasn't sure it would work, but looks like it did :D If you click the photo link, it appears in larger format.
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ah... Lily.... I sympathize with the whole peri-menopausal thing!
I went through complete physical hell for a few years, until my dr. finally tested me for whatever the hormone is that indicates menopause, and said I wouldn't have any more "surprises". I had all the PMS stuff that went along with it... and all the menopausal stuff too... my body didn't know if it was coming or going, most of the time!!
It was a huge relief for me to be finally done, even tho' she said I was way too young to be there already. Suits me just fine!
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Hi everyone,
Well, I'll try a little posting. But first let me thank PR and Carolyn for the menopausal thing. I'm not sure I'm getting it, but I could be. I've felt particularly lucky at least in this, in that I've had absolutely no symptoms. I had one, maybe two hot flashes last year, that's it. (Please don't throw stones at me!)
As for what's been bugging me in addition to the N experience ... they're "global" issues. I'll be 54 in August, and I just feel like I "should" be further along in so many areas of life. I have worked so hard for so long in therapy and yet I feel like I'm back to square 1. Sort of a parallel to Ns' juvenile behavior, I feel like I'm developmentally arrested somewhere. I never act like it, you'd never see it in outward behavior, but I feel that way inside. I feel stuck at some young age, and I have really wanted to break through that and I just can't. It seems very unusual to me that you can be aware of this (as Ns are not), want to fix it, and be unable to
So often I feel like a little helpless child.
My therapist confirms this in a way. He's never said I'm developmentally arrested, but he talks about the little child inside of me waiting for someone to come and take care of me, because my parents did not. (Can I refer you to other posts to make this briefer? In essence, my parents physically neglected me a great deal, as well as emotionally, and in addition to my dad's outright abuse.) I struggle and struggle with this. My head seems to know it but my gut just will not get it, and I don't know how to make it "get it." Again, therapist emphasized this yesterday.
I just don't know how to get beyond it. He talked about being a good parent to myself, which I guess is the way ... but of course that puts me up against all sorts of anxiety and feeling undeserving and all that.
He told me that in many ways my parents were bad parents. Yesterday he said it in a way and with a sharpness (not directed at me) that I have never heard him say in 20 years. It was quite acute. Then he said that I refused to accept that they were bad (I thought I had). I think this plays off our session last week, in which I talked about the loss of parents I felt I could love and idealize.
Last week amidst everything else he said that my parents should have seen that I had heat in my room, that I wasn't cold, and that I had enough blankets. (My mom would take them from me. She always made sure I didn't have any, or only minimal at best. We live in the cold northeast.) (My sister and brother were always dressed fine, had heat, blankets, etc. In addition, they got to do scores of things, such as go to camp, spend summers at my grandparents' farm, etc., that I was never allowed to do. My mom wanted to keep me close to home.)
I realized afterward that I still feel it's not their fault; that they are not to blame. It's what I deserve(d).
When I explained this yesterday, we talked about the depth to which I've internalized this. I didn't walk away with any great a-ha's or anything; we just talked about it.
So I guess maybe I need to get in touch with their being bad. (They weren't all bad. They really did do good things as well.)
It's hard for me to understand some of this -- that parents are supposed to care for their kids, and how they're supposed to care for them -- because I didn't have it. Hard to explain, but I don't have that conceptual reference. Probably if I'd had kids of my own it would be more understandable.
A good friend on another message board tried to explain to me (in the context of the N) that I am "enough" and I have always been "enough." She doesn't know about my home life; she was talking about the N and being good enough for him. It was her observation, not prompted by any comment from me.
My first reaction was, well, okay ... but as I've thought about it, particularly since yesterday's session, I've begun to realize how true it is as an issue and that I need to chew on this one awhile. Part of my feeling about the "no heat" deal is that i wasn't enough. Of course they weren't wrong to do it because I didn't deserve it. (That's the internalization.)
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Then there is the saga of my job losses between 5 and 7 years ago. I've never gotten over them. They caused tremendous financial issues in my life and I'm still not over them. I'm still paying for it.
And I'm still paying for it emotionally. I had a decent career; I was talented at what I did, and it's gone. The field has shrunk during my entire career span. Business hates creatives, and after every recession I saw my field shrink more and more until the last one all but knocked it out. At the same time, it (marketing/copywriting) was moving over to the internet. I lost that valuable e-experience just when I needed to be building it. I've been trying to build it here, but not getting very far. Long story, not going to say it here.
A few years into this, and I just broke. Too many things had hit me and gone wrong -- I was essentially evicted from my apartment, my car was repossessed ... every time I at least got to my knees, it seemed, something else hit me back down. I couldn't even get to my knees, much less standing up straight. It was just one thing after another, hard, for 5 years or more. I really have only felt mildly stable since the last few months. I really broke, and I haven't been able to get "it" back.
It's time to make some kind of move, but I am still so paralyzed and fearful from the job losses that I am in great conflict. My brain, my energy want to be doing something else, finally (be used, that is), but my emotional components are tremendously afraid of leaving this place, this job. It's about as stable as they come these days, and it's a good company. I have wanted to make my career here but it's not happening. I can't do what I've done in the past without moving to another office and giving up what roots I have.
Also, the very fall that the episode with the N started, right before then I was pretty sure I knew what I wanted to do. I had read an article in the NY Times magazine two years previously, which discussed sexual slavery. It was/is right next door. (In fact, that was the name of the article: The Girls Next Door.) It was very powerful.
I felt an instant connection. I wanted to work in this field. I had concluded that corporate america was trying to tell me something -- get out! which makes sense because I never started out to be in business. It's really not me. About the time all this was happening, I realized that I am really a social activist at heart.
So, I read this article, I was investigating working in the nonprofit field to work against human trafficking (of any kind) ... when bam! I had this vision. No one is addressing the root of sexual slavery problem, which is the people who do it. Yes, the law at al tries to find them and prosecute them, but this was different. I realized that those who held the captives were in fact captives themselves. And so I got this vision of starting a mission to reach out to them. Maybe not so much to help them, but to appeal to them to at least let the girls go.
I still don't know the exact details of how this would be done, but I envision it as basically a media campaign (how else would you reach them?) supported by support/professional resources of various kinds, first for the women and then for their captors.
I know they are scum. I know they are the lowest of the low. I know that they are the most hardened, bleak, dark, awful individuals on the face of the earth. I can't believe I'm thinking of even looking at them ...
...but I swear, God told me that if I do this, He will make it happen. It might only be 1 or 2 people, but God spoke to me and said that He would be there in this impossible mission. He would take care of the hard part.
So, yes, that sounds pretty impossible. But it's something I want to pursue. I've been holding off because I know I have to get my life stable before I can think of doing it.
...this job might be a good stable ground beneath my feet as I begin that. It's been one of my reasons, but not all, for staying here. I've been here to have roots, to feel secure, to take time to find out what it is i want to do. That's been fine.
But I've been getting tremendously bored. I have a high IQ and various talents (I'm not boasting, just trying to explain) and here I sit. Aside from being a receptionist, do you know what I do all day? I match ads from our magazines with their invoices. (Called tearsheeting.) It is the fastest road to insanity I can imagine. (I have other responsibilities as well.)
And I really like the people here. Which again, plays into the taking-care-of-me issues. My therapist explained yesterday, as he has before, that I look for people to take care of me in the workplace just like I do everywhere else. That most people when they look for a job talk about the job, but when I came back from interviews I would talk about how nice (or not) the people are, and the atmostphere and whether I'd like working there.
Convicted.
It's true. I know it's true. It's been hard for me to see over the years, but since the N thing I've been able to see it.
He said this same issue is why I got manipulated by the N. I think it's part, but not all. I don't think my therapist has ever believed me that this guy was really acting infatuated. I admit, I was all too eager to think it, but N was really doing all sorts of stuff and behaving in all sorts of ways he never had before. He truly seemed like someone very much in love. The circumstances helped the whole episode along: I knew that as pastor he couldn't say anything, and also probably because of his impending divorce. He could say negative things -- no, you're wrong or you're misinterpretingi things -- but nothing on the positive side, because of his position.
He never, ever said or did anything "negative." Instead, he was always doing nonverbal positive things. He was acting like a man crazy in love who couldn't actually act on his feelings. (That is, to act on them would have been wrong.) He constantly responded in positive ways to my emails.
Now, this undoubtedly was all for the Ns needs for supply, but still, it looked like he had very strong feelings for me, which is how I got pulled in. I don't think my therapist believes that. He totally understands the manipulation, he gets every single part of this except how the guy actually looked/behaved.
...back to the work issue ... so here I sit, and as I sit here, I am very aware that I am making myself voiceless. No one here knows me for the professional I used to be. I sit here and shrink and act like a youngish, sweet person. No wonder I don't get the consideration I should -- I don't act like a manager.
But then, I don't, because I'm not. Nonetheless, I know that there are receptionists who are much more "professional" than I am. They give off this total administrative air that I do not. (Although I get continual high marks for cordiality and greeting our visitors. My boss sent me a very nice email last week.)
I can't stand this person I am while I'm sitting behind this desk. "She" is a nice person, and friendly, but it sure as heck isn't the me I can be. The brainy talented one I used to be. Where did she go?
...and then there's the whole issue of dating. Oh lord,this is so hard to admit; my group mates know and maybe 1-2 other people know -- I did tell the N -- but not only have I never been" with someone -- which is awful enough, although it really hasn't/doesn't bother me -- I've never really even been kissed. I've had enough men corner me and try to grab me and make passes at me, etc., and so a few have managed to stick their tongues down my throat - but in my entire life, no one has ever just seen me and said gee, I'd like to go out with her. In other words, I've never been kissed because someone emotionally wanted to -- "saw" me and wanted to.
Except honest to god, I think the N did the day he kissed me after church. I really do. He didn't know this at the time; I didn't tell him until later. He seemed very mesmerized when he did it. Believe me, if it hadn't been in public at church I defintely wouldn't have moved it into a half-kiss. (There were people around. I was trying to protect him.)
So, there's a lot of it. I just feel like I'm 54, my life is a mess, I don't have anything that most people have at this age -- experiences, much less financial position or a home and kids, etc. -- despite my honestly having worked at the emotional issues for so long. I just can't get past them.
I really want to be able to go back, as Alice Miller says, and relive the feelings and move on. I have been trying and trying and trying to do this, and I just can't get there.
...another detour ... my therapist was talking yesterday about people who peak in high school, and how you never want to do that. I tried to explain that i used to feel I was working toward something, that I would overcome all my issues and then have something. When he started talking about peaking (at whatever age), I tried to explain to him that I never had a "best." I never had that period in life that you can look back on and think, gee, that was fun, or wasn't I something then, or whatever. I've never had a "best." I've never had anything.
Also, it's the whole voicelessness thing. It's that I have such a hard time representing myself verbally. It's all I can do to call my landlord and tell him the toilet is leaking or something, and he's just great. He's wonderful, and very easy to talk to.
I can't represent myself to anyone. I see why people here are so successful -- they can talk. They feel an appropriate level of power and they use it, appropriately and generally quite well. (It's a nice place to work.) they can talk.
I can be chatty, but I nonetheless have trouble talking.I hate small talk. It's very hard for me to stand around and talk to people because the small stuff is very hard for me. I'm much better when someone is pouring out their soul or talking about something major, divine, intellectual, artsy, conceptual, whatever.
And there's the whole "voicelessness" of being. Of my being. As I said elsewhere, to me voicelessness is not just verbal, it's part of being human. Of who you are and being that and putting it out there. Making it happen for yourself. I'm just so frustrated with all of that.
I'm so frustrated with being that person who is asked a question and can only come up with blankness. Someone asks me a question, particularly my therapist, especially what I want, and I just come up blank. I can't come up with any answers. I do think that if I could, I could make it happen. But I just can't find what I want, no matter what the area of life.
...all this makes me believe it would be very hard for a man to be interested in me.
Also, I have such trouble getting in touch with "external" things. I'm a very internally driven person. I look to the inside, not to the outside, for example, activities or hobbies. I'm just always imploding, always thinking. It's very hard for me to turn that off.
And, I realized I have enormous difficulty feeling love from people. I intellectually know people care for me, but I have great difficulty feeling "incoming" love. It stops somewhere; people care for me much more than I understand, I'm sure; I have a lot of trouble letting that in. I know it's there, but I can't feel it very well.
I'm tired of being adaptable and trying to behave the way people want me to behave. In a way I'm like a narcissist -- I rely on other people to define me; I look to bounce my behavior off them, their expectations, instead of being myself ... if I only had a clue as to who that is.
Well, there's most of it, or at least as much as I can write now. If you've got this far, thank you so much. I really appreciate your staying with me. What an earful, huh?
Oh, yes -- and I've really been missing the N. Part of that problem is that I never actually saw him mean to me in person. For the most part I only saw his good self; even when he turned on me, I never saw him; I just experienced the process of the harassment charges. What I'm trying to say is that he was never nasty or mean to me face-to-face. He was always wonderful.
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Might I just add, that you can really screw up your whole life just by being good, and that's essentially what I've done. You get lots of kudos for being good, and it's good to be good, but ... you can really make things hard for yourself.
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oh LilyCat,
I don't know what to say.
There are parts of your life that appear to be identical to mine, but others are not. I expect this can happen to any two people.
Your life seems to have been hit from all sides, so that is why I am speechless about what you must have endured. I can also be speechless because I often don't know the right thing to say, especially if it hits too close to home for me.
The voicelessness, I now know, was an issue all my life. The lack of'caring' I must have felt freom my parents to grow up not really knowing them, not able to go to them with my problems, not about to converse with them at all about anything important, and now I can remember one or two conversations ever with my mother, maybe one or two with my father, so I too had very much difficulty in ever feeling love 'coming in' to me.
I've had my experiences with men and had a child. Her father and I were, what appeared to be, so compatible from the first. We dated well over 2 years, lots of kissing ang hugging and sex, but he was my only real relationship until his drinkiing escalated to an unbearable point and I left with our daughter. He killed himself 7 years after the last time she and I saw him.
I try to remember where my voice must have failed me with him. I cannot, if it did fail me.
My voicelessness hurt me more from not being an assertive person, standing up for myself, because I never knew my entitlements. I had no boundaries so I was spread pretty thin, was quite adapatable in life and managed to survive in spite of some horrible experiences.
Survive due to the fact that I am now 69, and on the downhill road, am not expecting, not hoping, to meet a special man, I work alone at home for non-for=profit organizations, website building and accounting, I read, watch movies, come here to chat with nice people, and try not to get caught up with the not so nice people, and am content
Content is pretty mild in comparison to deleriously happy, but I see that for the younger folk.
I wish I knew what to say other than I commiserate with you and your pain. What can I do? say? Just ask
All the Best
Izzy
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(((((((Lily))))))))
Like Izzy, I don't know what to say, either.
Just so you know, I'm aware that I am - for lack of a better term - an underachiever.
Don't mean to degrade or belittle myself in saying that - I've raised and still am raising a family and faced alot of dragons - but often feel that I could be - and should be :? - doing alot more. Just never have been very ambitious in that way, but at this point I'd sure like to stir up a little more ambition and positive goal-setting than what's been active in the past.
Other than that, just wanted you to know that I'm hearing you, too... listening... and you are not alone.
With much love,
Carolyn
(((((((((Lily)))))))))
and
((((((((Izzy)))))))))
P.S. on edit... will be reading again, later... and thinking in the meanwhile... just don't want to spiel out a load of stuff that might only get in your way. oxo
And I ditto what Amber wrote: ... I think you're important enough and strong enough for this kind of journey!
It's only been so very recently that I've begun to think that way about myself, dear Lily. Can't walk ahead of you, but I would be pleased to walk alongside.
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I'm so frustrated with being that person who is asked a question and can only come up with blankness. Someone asks me a question, particularly my therapist, especially what I want, and I just come up blank. I can't come up with any answers. I do think that if I could, I could make it happen. But I just can't find what I want, no matter what the area of life.
LilyCat... sweet kitty...
I can so relate to this place you described - not knowing what I want. For me, it was because I didn't feel like I was important enough to HAVE wants, ya know? Like I didn't matter... and I'd heard NO so many times, in so many ways, at some point I told myself it wasn't even worth thinking I could want something.
My path through & out of that - was through my inner child. The one you've described feeling as "developmentally arrested". You sort of need to get to know her. Before the wants faded away into hopelessness, you know? Parenting her, starts with simply caring for her - understanding her feelings... and they will not be the feelings of a 54 yr old...and they might surprise you with how vivid and strong they are. Not all of the feelings will be pleasant (this is a huge understatement). Some of the feelings WILL be, though - it's not all doom & gloom. But the way out, the path to the "real you" is through becoming this inner little girl's best friend. Big sister. Mom.
Love to you... I think you're important enough and strong enough for this kind of journey!
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LilyCat,
I have read your whole post and many, many parts of it resonate with me. I wonder about something, though. If I'm understanding correctly, did you say you have been with the same therapist for twenty years? If so.... it seems to me it is not working any more. He has brought you so far and that's it. It seems like you could be ready for some breakthroughs. Maybe someone different or something different would do the trick. It does take a long time to heal from what we've been through. But it seems like there should be more breakthroughs after twenty years. That's just my take on it. I know these things can't be rushed. But if it were me, I'd be very frustrated by now.
Juno
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Hi PR,
the way out, the path to the "real you" is through becoming this inner little girl's best friend. Big sister. Mom.
Yes, yes, and yes!
tt
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Thank you all. You are true friends. TRUE friends!
Izzy, you said the right thing. The exactly right thing. Your warm and gentle heart came through, and it reached me. Like you, I never could go to my parents for support or with a problem. I never had a "real" conversation with them. They were never emotionally there for me.
I am so sorry about your ex-husband. I didn't know that. It must have been just devastating. I have a friend at church who is a wonderful, highly intelligent, really capable and competent and nice person. When she first came to the church she was married to someone. They got divorced; a few years later he killed himself. It was quite awhile ago but I often think of this part of her life. I'm sure she couldn't have been part of the reason; it had to be his own internal demons. I'm sure the same is true for you. It's never because of another person. It's because of anger turned inward. Soley because of that. I am so sorry. Like you haven't had enough to carry around.
Also, it just felt good to hear from someone a little older. Thank you. We do sound like we have a lot in common. I get the whole voicelessness/not standing up for yourself thing. I really do.
Carolyn, you are always such a good and loyal and caring friend, and you always have this special lightness to what you have to say. It just shines through. Just you saying hi is all I ever need.
Phoenix, thank you too. You detailed exactly what I want/seek to do, but I just can't seem to find the entranceway into that. I am sure there would be lots of powerful emotions if I could just get in there. That's my frustration. I'm not afraid to go there, I just can't seem to find the roadmap.
I do know about not being important enough to have wants. It's the big message from my parents: you don't count. They threw me under the bus for themselves, my sister, and at times but in radically different ways, for my brother (not so much for him, except after he got hurt.)
So, thank you all. You are dear to my heart, very dear.
One of the frustrations that I didn't talk about is that I read here and on the other board, and/or I see people in real life -- but mostly on these boards -- and it seems like everyone else is able to just get down and dirty and be human and say things to the people who post, and I feel such an inability to do that. I feel better able to do it here, because this board has a different culture/atmosphere (despite the conflicts) ... but I especially feel it on the other board. People have been very supportive, but when I try to reply back, I just don't feel like am able to do it as well as they. Maybe it's because they were all much more involved with their Ns -- spent a lot of time with them, were married to them, really got to see their real selves -- but I suspect that if they'd never been involved with an N, I'd still feel this difference.
And can I say, I just really miss the N. Part of this, I know, is mourning him. It's not just mourning this wonderful person I fell in love with. It's much deeper than that. He was my friend for 10 years, during which he was only really good to me. He was a very vital source of strength and support and friendship to me. I didn't have to talk to him so much, never went to him for counseling; it was just that he represented strength to me, and just his friendly self always did so much to get me from week to week. I don't have that this time, just when I most need it. I really miss him. (Yes, I know it's the fake him. But he sure seemed real. It's uncanny. I can't believe how these people who are total fakes are much more believable than the typical person we/I cast as phoney. They're easy to see through!)
Anyway, thank you so much to you all. I don't know if I'll get to a computer, so if I don't, everyone have a good weekend! I believe I will be able to catch up on laundry in air-conditioned coolness, now that the plumbing and A/c issues are fixed. Sounds exciting, doesn't it?
Hugs and kisses to you all.
Love,
Lily
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Juno -- just real fast, before I go home.
I know, I think of this from time to time and I do wonder. It's good for me to stay. Can't explain now, will just say that I've done an enormous amount of work and he's always there. He really is an excellent therapist. Some of this is because I haven't been doing individual for 5 years. It's much harder in group; that's a very different experience.
I am going to see a pastoral counselor, initially for the spiritual aspects of what the N did to me; but she's also a well qualified psyche counselor. She has very good credentials and her work lies in where the tradiitional psych stuff meets the spiritual, within the individual. I'm really looking forward to meeting with her. I think she will provide some much-needed new perspective.
Thank you, so much. I really appreciate your post.
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aww ((((Lily)))) have a restful weekend, please. And I hope that some genuine FUN will come your way.
Does Fester juggle?
Much love... see you Monday,
Carolyn
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For when you are back on Monday--I understand better now about the length of time you have spent with your therapist. It makes sense to me now. I had forgotten that you can't see him individually very often.
I also didn't realize you had been close to your pastor for ten years. That is a long time and a big part of your life. It hasn't been so very long that you have had to grieve about this loss. I have had relationships where I have missed them for longer than I have had them!
I hope the new counselor you will be seeing does make the difference that you need. It will be interesting to see your growth as it occurs.
Juno
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Carolyn,
Does he juggle. How funny is that??? I was actually thinking of you (many times over the w/e, actually) last night. Fester had been out peacefully snoozing or laying around or just watching on the stoop aaaaaaaalllll afternoon like a good boy.
But he likes to talk a little walk right around dusk.
I went down twice to see if he was back, and he wasn't. I wanted to go to bed!
Last time I went down, I called ... and there came Fester, trotting across the road, then really trotting through the grass to get to the door. he was just so sweet and yet highly dignified. Made me think of you and Sammy.
No kittens yet. Karen said she took the cat to a vet tech over w/e, and she's only about halfway through her term, so it will be a few weeks yet. Not as exciting, but it's good because it means she will get good care and nutrition for at least half her pregnancy.
Juno, thank you so much. I haven't read or posted with you much, but you are sounding more and more like a highly thoughtful and sensitive person each time I hear from you.
I want you to know that whether I should continue with my current T was the main topic of thought over the w/e. I still don't have an answer. He's always been so reliable, and I've seen him work with other people in group over the years, so I see how well they do/have done. He's stood by me so well for so long, and I know he really knows his stuff. ...but there is that voice inside me that at this point wonders if I've really wasted a lot of time. Not that we've wasted any time in therapy, but ... I don't know. Hard to explain.
That was one of the parts of Dr. G's essay that spoke to me -- where he talks about the work being analagous to "the big dig." It took away my concern that perhaps I was nuts for being in therapy for so long.
Anyway, I don't have a conclusion but I am thinking about it. I haven't heard back from the new counselor in several days, so I'm not sure what that means. I'm attributing it to being summer. Will give her a nudge if I don't hear from her today.
Also, thank you for understanding about the longstanding friendship. He really was very, very dear to me. I just loved him. I always felt so happy when around him, and he was a great intellectual stimulus/companion. My therapist always said that when the relationship is right, it's easy ... and it was always, always so easy with him. It just always worked (until things changed). That was one of the main attractions to him. It was easy.
That, and we just always had so much fun. The fun thing was really the kicker. that was probably the main quality. He had the best sense of humor and we always laughed.
-- as an aside -- one of the funny moments was in choir one night when he said that we "weren't worthy" of the women's assocation. If you knew them you'd laugh, too!
Obviously I'm missing him a lot right now. I guess I'm going through the mourning process. But I miss my friend! He was always so special to me. I was deeply, deeply fond of him for years ... it's really hard to dismiss that person I knew, since I had such limited contact with the real N him. In fact, I only ever really saw the whole shebang once. (The grandiose part and the 4-year-old personality, nothing mean.) I'm glad I did, because I'd never be able to put this together if I hadn't. Pretty much, the friend I knew for 10 years is what I remember. It's hard to keep the N reality in front of me.
Anyway, thanks so much, everyone. Missed you over the w/e!
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((((((((Lily)))))))) I was thinking of you, too :)
Glad to know that the kitties aren't in danger and the mama is getting good care!
And I can see as clear as a bell... Uncle Fester fast-trotting through the grass to your door - probably trying not to get too much dew on his li'l furry tootsies!
I'll not be on much for awhile, Lily... stuff needs tending here at home... but please know that you are always in my thoughts and prayers.
Love,
Carolyn
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Thanks, Carolyn. Not sure how long you mean, but whether it's an hour or a week, be well! Thinking of you "certainly"!