Voicelessness and Emotional Survival Message Board
Voicelessness and Emotional Survival => Voicelessness and Emotional Survival Message Board => Topic started by: changing on June 29, 2008, 04:15:27 PM
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Hi Hoppy-
I read your thread and am so sad for you in your very unfair situation... I want you to know that you are loved and a true heroine. I am in the midst of a similar debacle and I am so impressed and inspired that you continue to be such a supportive and loving "Wise Woman" despite all the circumstances you are facing...You even made me laugh about having to wear clothes to church!!!! We have to keep going Hoppy, so that we can prevail ...
Love and Peace and Happiness to My Wonderful Hoppy,
Changing
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I agree completely.
Much love to you Hops.
Sea storm
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Well I had on a groovy red skirt.
Was hoping there wasn't much light behind me...
(Maybe I orter go join the Pagans, they'd probably encourage me...)
Changing, you moving around your beautiful serene Zenny space is a vision of hope to me.
Sea, you remind me of how wonderful it is out oN the ocean, expansive and beautiful...
You both just pour out love and I am grateful.
love,
SpongeHops Weepypants
(I did have a confusing but vigorous session of bawling and making completely nonsensical declarations to my dog. I feel better now...)
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Hi Hoppypants-
Dawg is a language of truth and immediacy, and I am certain that you were deeply understood when you expressed yourself in it and to it!!!
A red skirt seems almost martial- a girly armed forces uniform, denoting a powerful femininity. A good thing to wear while you are at war- especially given the alternative that you were contemplating!!! You are always helping and consoling others- I am so glad that you have volunteers to help you as well...
Hoppy, what does your lawyer think? Like Our Izzy says, we have to be optimistic - this doesn't mean that we cannot be tired and mourn the hurt and waste of resources and time and mood on the trouble stirred up unnecessarily and viciously, and howl in Dawg- but you will get through this Hoppy- intact and wiser, still beloved and important.
Owwooo OOfff OOff ( Love and Blessings My Friend),
Changing
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Well, lawyer says he doesn't know why my brother cancelled the 2nd hearing, but he thinks it's best to let that sleeping dog (hell, my brother's not as nice as a dog) lie. So he hasn't pursued any contact with my brother or his lawyer. My brother has basically gotten what he wants, an assurance (the new will) of a big piece of the house...so perhaps he was persuaded by his lawyer to let it be, or perhaps the lawyer fees got to him. He didn't win any of his immediate issues, challenging my POA or anything. So there's no conservator or guardian changes for now. (Never needed to be in the first place, but that was his vendetta ammo. What'd I ever do to him? Get BORN, that's what.)
But I do think the month of tension in my brain, kind of waiting for the other shoe to drop, had built up. I had really lost the ability to sleep. Except for a few broken hours, and work has been intensely busy too.
My meltdown this w/e also had to do with feeling insecure for the first time w/the gardener, who's done absolutely nothing wrong and is as lovely as ever. But he's a bit taciturn so when I was feeling weepy and frantic (not with him), he had just puttered on about his separate business while I staged a marvellous solitary drama about All Sorts of Terrible Things, none of which have happened. (IOW, he will reject me.) When in fact he's busy and active and has a life, and I all of a sudden wanted reassurance and he wasn't tuning in...and I wasn't telling him. Still a little afraid to. Afraid I'd be clingy.
One odd thing. Blush. He lives very close by and always goes home to sleep in his own bed. I sympathize but he's so rigid about it. So I was building that up to be some Significant Sign of Inability to Relate. Which it probably isn't. But I don't know, since my track record of assessing male character is abysmal. I think he's a lovely person. And therefore am having Groucho attacks...
Yikers.
But I went outside and cut crookneck squash and cucumbers and purple basil and silver queen radishes and parsley and baby carrots and red onion and sweet banana peppers, just a few of each, and gave them my neighbors and it made them happy and me even happier. Then I planted some purple and red petunias in the corner of the veggie bed. Y'all ever seen www.squarefootgardening.com (http://www.squarefootgardening.com)? That's what we did. One big L-shaped box, 8' x 3' x 8' and one long one 3' x 8', which has baby watermelons coming out on a huge vine crawling down toward the mailbox.
Thanks for listening xxxxxxxxooooooo
Hops
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I am sorry you are hurting, Hops. You have so much on your plate. Do we ever stop paying for the crime of having NM's? It feels like s/times it is the gift that keeps on giving, pain, pain and more pain.
The gardener may need time in his "cave".
Give him space to be and grow as he needs .
That is my thought looking in from the outside. I am sorry it is so hard, Hops. You do have TOO much to bear right ,now. My heart goes out to you. Ami
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Hello Hoppy-
Have you pursued challenging the new will? (None of my business so answer only if you wish of course) Keep getting your stuff together Hoppy, and think of what you want to happen in terms of the issues raised as well as in terms of protecting yourself from future assaults- so next time you won't be on the defensive end of things.
Your sweetheart sounds nice. Not flighty. Seems like from what you say that he understands your womanly ways and emotions, and keeps steadily on in his own manly way.
Hoppy your are lovable no matter what.
Square foot gardening...so cool!! I have big trees and beds and boundaries and planters and pots, etc - how did you build the boxes? Well, I will let you get to your red-skirted Sunday and your gentleman caller (nice that he lives so close by!!!) Have fun in the garden!!!
Love,
Changing
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Oh Hops.... I haven't read the skirt debacle thread yet but.... sounds like you've had quite a time lately.
I'm sending hugs and thanks for the humorouse report.... though things aren't what we'd wish.... at least we can laugh.
Keep enjoying your garden and gardener.... they sound like bliss, escape and reason for fellowship.... all in one.
And.....
as for doubting your perpeptions....
does it ever end?
((((Hops))))
Lighter
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Ahh, well. The gardener.
Lovely as he is, he did sense what was going on with me, and he did pull back a bit.
But bless his heart, he came over to talk about it.
Here's the thing, wise women --------- do I need your thoughts. You too wise men, very much.
I need to be very honest with myself. Now I know that part of the reason I fell apart today was I sensed distance in him and anticipatory grief was hitting.
Remember how proud of myself I was for suggesting "friends with benefits"? Well I can't possibly regret it. I was unheld and untouched for so long I simply couldn't handle it any more. THAT was driving me quietly crazy (and apologies to anybody who feels it's wrong). So when I began to feel connected to him, I posed the question, and the answer has been a joy. Still, I did start quite aware that I was offering a no-strings, no-promises intimacy.
So tonight we sat on the porch and he said, what are we, really? Long story short, he has always told the truth, and he said, I don't know that I'm capable of forming a deep intimate relationship with anyone. I'm a lone wolf. I love being with you, being physically intimate, I love helping you with things like the garden, I love your company. But I don't know that I can ever do any more. I just don't know that I have it in me. You said, "friends with benefits."
We both laugh a lot, we like each other SO much. I in fact dearly love him. But as he wisely said, you know, when you introduce sex into a relationship, of course it's more than that. It becomes serious. I said, you sound like somebody just gave you cancer. We both laughed. I explained why I'd fallen apart today, basically. All these things converging and then I was touched off by his going home. We talked it through and I asked if he was "breaking up with me" and he said emphatically no, and I believe him. He really likes our relationship! Me too! He could just sense me pressing a little for more, and that triggered a kind of retreat.
I really get it. I believe him. And I trust him. I don't think he's going off looking for anyone else. I think it is fearful and difficult for him to get too close. (And I ALWAYS fall in love with lone wolves. I have an inner she-wolf too.)
I told him, "I KNOW I am capable of a deeply committed and intimate relationship. So the truth is, once I realize I'm ready to look for that again in my life, I may have to go and do that." Meanwhile, we continue...that's how we left it.
I am so beyond doing anything "tactical" to "catch" a man. I just refuse. I am just going to be myself and feel what I feel and if I can't stand it, then I can't stand it. And off I go to look for the proper Republican dentist (sorry Mud) I should've yearned for all along. But jeez, I'm 58, and I don't WANNA dentist! I want a brokenhearted biker boy who has been as wounded as I.
Still, he said he does not believe he is capable of falling in love again. I believe he loves me back, as a friend. And that he takes that seroiusly and is a good good person.
So what do I do now? Really, what do you think I should do? I am welcoming advice. (No games, no pretending not to feel or need or be...just don't have that on the menu any more.)
But what do you think I should do, to be most alive, yet not self destruct? (I am positive he has no interest in hurting me. It's just that if his belief about himself, which he said wasn't a good thing but he thinks it's real, is persistent, I am sure I shouldn't believe I can or should change him. Maybe he'll be happiest as a "cranky old guy working on his motorcycle", as he put it...). And me? I want to love all a person can love.
thank you thank you,
Hops
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PS Changing, the new will's real. Ma went off and did it and her lawyer confirmed to my lawyer that he was sure it was her choice. Over and done. Just a little Nlegacy.
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((((((Hops)))))) I haven't found the falling-apart-post yet, but... what are you asking exactly?
Are you wondering whether you should break it off with the gardener because he's unlikely to offer more than the fwb option?
If that is the question, then I say, Yes... because it's not going to get any easier for you as time goes on.
And Hops... even wolves mate for life.
Love,
Carolyn
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Hops,
I am clueless about relationships, so I can't advise except to say that you are a lovable person no matter what happens.
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Hi Carolyn,
I've fallen apart over a couple threads today...one being the thread Sending Love to Shame Slayer. (I'm taking my story off that now and picking it up here, since Changing so kindly started this for me...)
And oh, darn, yes, that is the question. I hear your answer. It's the answer it always is, isn't it? Boy I am not good at this...but you are probably right.
It's hard to believe he'll give me up but I guess if I don't make a decision soon, I'll be giving myself up.
Oh how I'd miss him. But one really can't have it all. Damn.
love to you,
Hops
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Oh, Hops... just catching up here... I see.
You did so well to stand up and reach out for help! (((((((Hops))))))) those aftermath crumplings are rough. It's like when the whole family's been ill and mom's tending to each one... and just when they all are feeling better... whoosh. This sort is a whoosh X 10. Been there, for various reasons.
And I really am sorry about the gardener dude... but you and your life are worth more than wishful thinking. So very much more, Hops.
Remember the key? When someone tells you who he is... believe him!!!!
Lean on those who are offering shoulders and hands, Hops... wish I was there.
Love,
Carolyn
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Thank you TT again thank you...
It's part aftermath and now that the day is done and my sweet gardener and I talked I think it's also huge grief at the truth of where he feels he is. Maybe I didn't know it was coming but on some level I DID know? He wasn't slipping me a mickey or anything, I am responsible. And oh I truly don't regret it. I guess I am willing to face the hurt of not having all I dream of because he really has given me so much more than I've had for so many years. What a waste. Makes me so sad that the garden can grow but it sounds as though he can't allow our relationship to grow. And I mustn't do that again...wait and hope. I must believe him. I just don't know what to do about the positives. It amazes me how purely positive it has felt. Such comfort and ease between us, 95% of the time. And likely that was because we started friends and we still are.
So going forward I think it'll be stumbling. I won't know what to do except be present with him. Right now I am resisting impulses to contact him because he needs some time to think and breathe. And I do not want to clutch.
I know he'll be in touch. I'm not feeling abandoned. I do need all the advice anyone has to give.
love
Hops
PS--He is a nurse and wanted to be a flight nurse, applied for that job this year but didn't get it. Two medical choppers just crashed together in Flagstaff...terrible story. Lots of injuries, seven dead. Lots of crashing in the real world and in my heart.
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lighter
Hero Member
Posts: 3488
Re: Sending love to Shame Slayer
« Reply #9 on: Today at 08:28:34 PM »
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Oh Hops.... what a thing is organization, for the artsy type?
My stomach flipped when I read about going into rooms and not knowing why you were there.....
so been there...
done that.
::sending you strength and energy for when the church volunteer calvary arrives::
Time to edit and send things back out into the universe: )
Lighter
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Thank you Lighter (and thanks for moving it off the Shame Slayer thread)...
I am moved by your ability to send support and caring in the midst of your own lonely hard walk.
Maybe when we walk into rooms and don't know why we're there, we're just supposed to stop, and breathe, and wait, and feel the air in the room, and notice it's just a box, and we can still breathe...
I really did feel unhinged today. I felt crazy. It scared me.
I was making no sense. I couldn't figure anything out.
I'm stunned I've come up against the same lesson in love.
The change is that this is a good man. Eccentric and brittle in ways, but good.
But it's still the same lesson, isn't it?
I so don't want it to be...another letting go.
How many of those do I have in me?
love
Hops
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This is hard but I am saying the truth: I feel incredibly needy of your voices, your advice.
Is there any way I can not bolt? Run away from this man?
The risk of loving? I shouldn't take it?
It feels like what I do. I love.
Am I screwing up? HELP.
love and gratitude,
Hops
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I understand that scary, unglued feeling, Hops. It hurts so badly . You feel like you are losing your mind,on top of it all. I understand.I am really sorry, Hops. Ami
PS You are normal to want love, comfort, and a sense of connection, especially now, with all the changes in your life. My intuitive feeling about this man is that he may need a little space away from the relationship to get his bearings. It does not have to be over, I don't think, do you?
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Hops,
Loving is only un-risky when you can live joyfully with whatever the other person offers in return - whether that's alot or none - and not feel disappointed... or lessened by it. That means - even if it's nothing near what you've given, nowhere near half of the time. Relationships are not 50/50, you know? They're 100/100... and I think that some people are simply not capable of that.
You are a 100 percent kinda woman, imo.
Only your heart knows what you can stand...
Love,
Carolyn
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Ann, you are so very kind to me.
I truly feel it, and I thank you.
Why are you so kind?
You are a generous person.
Hugs to you, and thank you for calming me.
love,
Hops
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Ami,
Thank you for your compassion. You do understand those feelings.
It helps to hear someone say, been there, know that.
I appreciate you knowing and naming...crazytime.
Makes it feel less crazy.
hugs
Hops
PS--You could be right that it doesn't have to be over. Wouldn't it be wonderful if he found he wanted me more than he wanted to the way he's always been? He did tell me he knows it is a position of fear. I don't know if I'm wanting to smash that hope because it's so scary or if I should be marching right for the Exit because these things "always end". And if this one could end peacefully, in friendship, it would be different. I am torn between wanting to wait and hope and realizing that my fears of loss can make me either clutch or run, and either clutching or running is the end anyway.
What I need is strength to be and wait.
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Hi Sweetie Hops-
You know Darling Hoppy Girl- it hasn't been that long that you two have been keeping company. Maybe this whole legal/familial pain in the Hops is making you feel isolated and unstable- your daughter in another state, etc and your mom and bro in a judicial civil war...Maybe this man isn't trying to control and get intense all at once (I think that is a good thing)...maybe he is not forever (I can't know this)...maybe this level of involvement is right for what you are doing now-only you would know. But he seems like he is trying to keep harmful drama away and that is good... It can be so hard to deal with so much alone, especially when it involves one's inner circle and one's security- how blessed is the soul who has someone who will be with them no matter what...
I definitely understand- but Hoppy you can make it, I know. And there are lots of darling men who would be thrilled to keep company with you, and someone who is the One (I am a foolish romantic but I believe this) it may or may not be the Gardener, but you are taking tentative steps now... There is no failure here- you have to choose carefully, and deserve friendship, love, adventure...
Do you know that Michel LeGrand/Arthur and Marilyn Bergman song "I Wish You Love?" It may come to that - bittersweet but good in its own way, apart from expectations...or it could be "The Wedding March"- only time will tell... I am sending you my best joy vibe ... The best is yet to come Hoppy!!!!
Love,
Changing
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Aww, gad, Changing, you got me bawling again.
Thank you.
I can't say more just now how wonderful that was.
thank you.
love
Hops
Got it. It was you saying, There is no failure here.That was the answer I've been straining for all day.
thank you thank you. I believe you're right. Just got some oxygen back in my heart.
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Dearest Hoppy-
You don't know yet how wonderful you are and how fabulous the life you and the lucky fellow you choose will turn out- but you will know... and I will rejoice with you!!!
RRRROOOFFF (Love and Blessings In the WOLFIE Language )
Changing
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Hi Hops,
You have bravely told the story of your relationship with the gardener. The slant is a bit on the iffy side. He wants space and to keep it light hearted sort of. This doesn't sound like you. These biker boys who are part angel, part pirate are short term usually.
I trust your judgement but sense that passion is at play here and that you are losing yourself a little. I would like to see you take back your power and not stick around for a waiting game. You deserve that whole wonderful, messy love of your life feeling.
I cant help but think that you were very vulnerable after your mom went to live somewhere else, sibling rivalry surfaces like a nuclear submarine, and you faced so many changes. Your brother seemed to be able to reduce you to small child. The up side of that was that you got to see what it must have been like as a child having to live with the two of them in the house and no escape.
Meanwhile reap the harvest and experience yourself as a full blown woman again. Good for you. Just dont give away the farm. Your heart is might big and I am just a little afraid that you are that kind of gal. They are the best in my books but they can be so vulnerable and end up in jackpots that it takes a miracle to recover from.
Thinking about you, Hoppy.
Love,
Sea storm
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Hiya Hops,
So sorry about the unevenness of your relationship with garden man. Just been skimming the thread and need to go back and read it properly to comment but wanted to say thinking of you. I also want to add that you must be EXHAUSTED from years of caring for your mother, the responsibility and then there is brother from hell.....come on girl, give yourself a break.
I went to a wedding last week and watched people dancing together. I suddenly felt very alone and had a longing for sharing with someone but when I thought about this I knew that this was the needy part of me back in action. The part that drives me into unbalanced relationships with weak boundaries (Carolyn's thread in mind here). I realised that I had been slipping on going out and meeting with friends/theatre/films which keep me connected with the alive and happy part of me. This has taught me something about its not so much that I want someone else. It is when I abandon myself I get the longing for an other to come in and make it right. I am learning about taking care of myself and growing up. When I go into waiting and hoping mode I want someone. When I am in adult mode and living a full and engaged life, my aloneness feels like freedom. Just my thoughts,
much love
axa
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Oh, Hopsy!
I sooooo get where you are.
Remember the book you have recommended on relationships? (the name escapes me, and I am settled all cozily in my bed with my cup of coffee and I dont want to go digging in the shelves for it...) That book came to me just as I was hitting the spot where you are for the first time. It was everything to me. Everything. I weathered the dance with the book in my hand and have continued to use what I learned there as the dance continues. Go get the book--read it again.
Something that the author spoke of was that there is a natural progression to every romantic relationship (I'm convinced that it happens in all relationships). At some point there is a pulling back by one of the partners--a retreat from the intimacy that is developing. The natural tendency of the other partner is to move forward in response--to ask questions, to express concern. The author points out that that behavior heightens the need for space in the initiating partner.
The best gift you can give to him, and to the relationship, is to pull back, too. So he can have the freedom to figure out on his own where he wants to land. Allowing this freedom will be uncomfortable to you, but the results won't be. Because he is going to have the freedom to move toward you--because he wants to, not because he wants to reassure you--and that is going to feel really good to both of you.
Also, just because someone says they don't think they can fall in love again--you don't have to start hammering nails into the coffin. People say a lot of things. Sometimes they say what they wish was true. Sometimes they really mean what they say--at that moment. Sometimes they say what is the opposite of what is true. I listen to what people say, but I pay more attention to what they do.
Okay, another thing: you two havent been together that long. He is actually saying exactly what he SHOULD be saying at this point. If he was planning marriage already, I would be on a plane to come get you! Lots and lots of time--that's what you need, and he is giving it to you with out you having to fight for it. Lots of space to work through your very real relationship issues without also navigating the rapids of commitment. What a gift.
And finally....even if you two develop a long term, committed relationship, he may still be of little use in an emotional melt down. My experience is limited--but what I have had, with husband, sons, and now a sweetheart, is that men don't do well with emotional meltdowns. Esp. meltdowns that involve not being able to fix it. Men are not all the same, so I suspect the extent of their desire to fix it is varied. But I have encountered it over and over again. Some men get angry--at the source of your pain, or at you!--and then you are left to deal with HIS strong emotions, distracting you from your own. Some men pull back--either out of wisdom, or just out of the frustration at the feeling of ineptness they get--and leave you to struggle through your own feelings on your own.
That feels like abandonment because women rush in and cluck and putter and empathize. All that clucking and puttering feels like real love to us. So we grade our man on where he lands on the scale of attention When The Sky Is Falling In. But, I dont think that's fair (and I do it!) I honestly have never in my life met a man who has met my tears with an offer to make me a cup of tea, bring me a tissue, and sit and hold my hand while I pour out my fears and frustrations. I know that's what we say we want, but I just don't think it exists. I think that we have to let our girlfriends do that for us, and let our men do something else. That's just where I have arrived most recently!
So...maybe there are two things going on here. One, is your meltdown over your family and home issues and your gardener's response (or lack of it). The other may be your anxiety over where this relationship is going (or not going). The two things may have converged this weekend, but they may not actually be related at all. And one may not speak to the reality of the other. And neither may be poured in stone for all time.
I have faced this stuff in my relationship,too. Sometimes pretty well and sometimes not. What I have learned to do is to look at stuff like this as a plot tension in our story. (what good story doesnt have a bit of tension in it to make you keep turning the page?) You could look at his unwillingness to spend the night like a discovery: oh, I see. This is going to be a kind of interesting twist in the story--we make mad passionate love, but he always slips out to go back home. This is what "we" look like. There is no right way to have this love affair--this is the way we have it.
So, you are the other part of the story--what do you want to be doing as he slips out to go home? Or when you wake up the next morning, wishing he were waking up beside you--but he's not. If you can picture who you want to be in the story--the strong woman with things in her own life that need doing--you can construct the end of that chapter with you puttering around your own kitchen in the morning, making your tea, listening to music on the stereo, choosing to have the autonomy that results from his emotional distance. Does that make sense?
The same thing with his unwillingness to make a further commitment to you right now: this is the real story of you, as a couple. What will you make of it? If you were to write a story of your romance, with you being okay with the way it is right now, what would it look like? Can you walk that picture out?
I have been able to do that (my issues arent the same as yours--but I still feel inexplicably clutchy at times, considering the fact that I am really not comfortable with binding commitments myself at this point). I keep my emotional feelers out there, looking for places where I might be settling for something that really isnt okay at all. I've hit that place a couple of times, and that's when we have The Talk. So far, we have always resolved things.
All that is to say, Hopsy, that if any of this starts feeling abusive, or sick, or twisted, the story is over. That's the way this one ends--the strong woman walking out the door (or kicking him through it). The entire scenario above is based on both of you being imperfect but good people who are simply bumbling around a new relationship trying to figure out how to do it. I think you will recognize if it ever becomes something darker. I say, let him keep taking his space wherever he needs it, while you guard the space you need to look at everything that is going on from a bit of emotional distance.
I'm walking this road, too, Hopsy, and it's both exciting and exhausting.
Love you
CB
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Dear Hops,
CB expressed what I wanted to say, beauifully.I got the book you recommended , too. It talks about the ebbs and flows of relationships and how pulling away is PART of the relationship, at times.
It is normal, NOT abnormal. It IS very,very scary,though, especially if we have fear of abandonment, which children of N's do(out the whazoo and more)
I think you are at a pivotal point with him. I think he has a basic interest in you and in the relationship. I think he is asking himself if you will LET him have space. Everyone asks themselves this in relationships. They want to know that they can have come and go without the other person clinging for dear life(IMO)
My advice would be cling to your pillow, another friend, but not him and he may just find that you have those special qualities that he misses. I think there is a good chance he will come back and you will go to the next level ,with him, as long as you give him the space ,now. That is my 2 cents, Hops, dear. Ami
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Dear Hops - here's my two cents, sweetie...
He's still offering love - you still want love and other parts of your life are stressful... let this relationship be, for the time being.
Yes, I heard you when you said ultimately you want more, when you first described this relationship. But "prince charming" hasn't parked his horse in your garden yet - and your faithful gardener may be just what you need... for the time being anyway. Maybe this is just my hippie past coming up...
but do there HAVE to be "rules" about relationships? Do they have to fit some pre-determined pattern? Or can they just find their own state of being? And be just fine that way?
Best I can do right now; If I stop having my own emotional meltdowns about not smoking soon - I'll be back. Twiggy's bring me all kinds of strange memories and emotions right now. It's really hell dealing with the teenaged "me"; she's more wily & stubborm than even my own kids were...
But I've found the "carrot", I think. What she really wants. (ps - you were SOOOO right to look at the effects of nicotine on the brain again - it helped me figure out the "benefits" that Twiggy got from smoking...)
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Hops,
It's so good to have you "back."
I've read this thread; I'd like to read your other post(s) but can't findi them ... so ... I'm not up on all the details, but it sounds like you're going through an awful time.
What a wonderful response from your fellow church members. that is just great, but not surprising. You're such a terrific person.
I'm going to guess that a lot of what you're going through emotionally might be related not just to current events with your mother's house, etc., but also just from not having to take care of her anymore. When someone fills your life that way, and you by necessity of some kind become their care-giver, it is an immense loss and hole when that person leaves your care. It is its own kind of mourning. You have a huge hole to fill.
As for the clutter -- yikes! It is actually painful for me to take any little item and find a place for it, put it away, etc. I'm sure a lot of this comes from my mother, but it's also, as someone said (can't find the post right now) often antithetical to creatives. (But not always. I have an artist-girlfriend who is quite organized. But she's amazing. Quietly so.) Cleaning up after my parents is a whole huge issue for my sister and I. As an adult she had done it, I refused. (Boundaries! Not my responsibility!!!!!!! Their job!!!!!!) They moved, twice, and both times it was just an unbelievable nightmare. Especially when they moved from the house I grew up in after 40 years. My mom was a packrat. She never threw ANYTHING out!
Anyway...
as far as the gardener. these are always the most pressing issues, aren't they? I can't give you any advice, I am not the person to give it to you, but I will say this: I think it's essential to figure out what you want, in the bigger picture and with him. Then you have to see how much reality fits with that. Guess what I'm saying is, you have to know what you want, what you're capable of, and make your choices from that. As my brother once wrote to me, "want what you want, not what you think you want or try to want or think you should want."
Oh, it sounds so linear! It's anything but that!
Anyway, hang in there. We all love you here. Have missed your voice.
LC
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Hops,
I'll join you and TT in the Aftermath recovery group !
Many wise voices have spoken, and if he's not the proverbial Mr. Right, and is Mr. Right-For-Now, I wonder what having one of your
imaginary conversations with Pema would yield ?
cats paw
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Sea Storm....SO much to thank you for!
I trust your judgement but sense that passion is at play here and that you are losing yourself a little.
Definitely. Passion is cooking. Take one affection-starved 58 y/o woman and plop a kind, cuddly man beside her and the whole notion of giving up the CUDDLE makes her go bonkers. You're right. I was truly leaking out of my own psyche on Saturday. Much better now.
I would like to see you take back your power and not stick around for a waiting game.
Yup. I feel that I don't need to do anything dramatic but I even said to him, "Since I know I want a happy deep relationship, I may have to take responsibiity for bringing that about at some point. We'll cross that bridge when we get to it." This was the first time I've ever calmly said to a man what I want, and made plain that if I find it's not going to be possible, I will make a new choice for myself.
You deserve that whole wonderful, messy love of your life feeling.
I'd like to have something that free and open and joyous. I've come to realize I have my half of it. I CAN do that, so if I am with someone who feels he can't, then I will not stifle who I am for him. (He's not saying, stifle yourself. And I expect he's doing some pondering. But I can be separate from him and make choices for my own wellbeing.)
I cant help but think that you were very vulnerable after your mom went to live somewhere else, sibling rivalry surfaces like a nuclear submarine, and you faced so many changes.
Indeedy yes.
Your brother seemed to be able to reduce you to small child. The up side of that was that you got to see what it must have been like as a child having to live with the two of them in the house and no escape.
Thank you. What a gift, to show me the upside. And you're entirely right. Wow. For all its middle class and propriety trappings, my home was dangerous for me psychologically. My Dad was a buffer, but they were more powerful.
Thank you again for your wisdom, Sea Storm.
One of the women who came to help me today is a psychologist. I was mystified as to why I fell apart this w/e, when Mom has been gone since late January. Why on earth? Why wasn't I feeling GREAT? I told her I even had wondered if I was having some sort of PTSD, and she said it was right on schedule, that delayed PTSD reactions usually kick in right around 6 months later. Mom's stroke and the dawning realization that I couldn't help any more, and then my brother's legal attack...huh! I guess it all just added up, and I was overwhelmed by the task of clearing out her rooms.
xxoo gratefully,
Hops
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Axa, dear woman, do you do needlepoint?
It is when I abandon myself I get the longing
for an other to come in and make it right.....
When I go into waiting and hoping mode I want someone.
When I am in adult mode and living a full and engaged life,
my aloneness feels like freedom.
Thank you for this beautiful truth.
love to you,
Hops
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Lord, CB...that's too wonderfully spot on in too many places to hit the quotey thing...
THANK YOU.
It's A Fine Romance by Judith Sills, PhD!! HOW COULD I FORGET!
I have crammed this wonderful book down the throats of so many suffering women panicking in the early stages of relationships...how could I ignore it myself?????????????????????????????????
(She can dish it out but not take it.)
Oh how right you are. Whether it's with P or someone else, the same dance must be danced. The same space given and respected. The same need for some detachment is there. Even if I have to do a battle royal with weakness sometimes.
When we had The Talk, I was able to tell him, truthfully, I think it's good that you take the time and space you need. I'm not even sure I want somebody here in the mornings. This weekend was just a confluence of so many stresses that I got vulnerable.
(Oddly, one thing I'd fixated on was that I'd been to his house, and realized it was very very clean. And mine was beginning to resemble a lair. So I started obsessing that he would leave at night because it was messy. And then he made clear that it was his way of keeping things less intimate, nothing to do with the clutter. I was feeling SHAME. And it wasn't necessary....he was just taking care of himself. In his weird way.)
Maybe I have assimilated what's wise, even when I can't act on it. I didn't lose the recognition that him stepping back was a good thing. During The Talk, I was even sensing (while forgetting all about The Book) ... that there was something okay about his retreat despite my reaction to it.
Thank you CB. Always.
love
Hops
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Hi catspaw,
I'll join you and TT in the Aftermath recovery group !
Yeah, cp, you'd never see a recovery group called Afterglow, right? :lol:
tt
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Hear hear, Ami.
And you know what?
If a man were falling apart too often, and asking me to be responsible for him feeling safe in the world...I'd retreat.
Sauce for the gander, sauce for the goose.
Unclingily,
Hops
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Lilycat,
Is your brother married? I LIKE HIM! :lol:
I'm glad you get it about the clearing out.
I realized today that it was like killing my mother.
Over and over I made ruthless decisions about her books (she was a librarian and literacy mad -- one of the nice things about her) and her things. I had no compassion for her taste or her little valueless treasures. And it was HARD to do.
But the women were amazing. I had never met half of them. SEVEN women showed up with boxes and good humor and energy and just plowed through it. There's still some more to do but it's going to be pleasant enough to show the interim minister when he comes by with the realtor in the morning, and he'll be able to see what a nice space it is. Except for some classic books, a few pieces of art and the furniture...my parents are gone from the downstairs wing.
Wow. It was draining but wonderful.
And I am so grateful.
too tired to type more but thank you, too
I'm awash in kindness and shared wisdom...
with much love, and a grateful heart,
Hops
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Dear Hops,
I was overwhelmed by the task of clearing out her rooms.
Me Too!!!!! :shock: :(
My NM passed a few years ago and I MUST discard her clothing. I've avoided it for years, but the time has come. Is this what's happening for you?
It's sooo hard. These are her personal things. AH!!!!!! I've envisioned doing it a thousand times in my mind, but I can't face the reality of doing it. Think I'll have a friend come over & hold my hand.
love,
ann
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Oh, Hops....
it makes me feel good to picture you walking barefooted accross newfound clear uncluttered sunlit floors.
Now it's time to create your own sacred space.
Lighter
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Hi Hops,
I feel like I made a huge faux pas writing the following post copied below. I got my thoughts about your caregiving your mom for a decade and the gardener all crosswise. I hope your sense of humor rescued me on this one and I hope you know what I mean by trying to explain.
tt
Hi catspaw,
I'll join you and TT in the Aftermath recovery group ![color/]
Yeah, cp, you'd never see a recovery group called Afterglow, right?
tt
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:lol: :lol:
TT...your Aftermath musings didn't bother me one bit, because in fact they sailed right over my head. I just figured y'all were enjoying a nice little chat... Haha. NOW I get it! Afterglow, I get.
No fo pah.
:D
love
Hops
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Thinking of you, Hops. Sit tight with your guy and you may find that he misses your company and is back very soon. That is my hope. Blessings, Ami