Voicelessness and Emotional Survival Message Board
Voicelessness and Emotional Survival => Voicelessness and Emotional Survival Message Board => Topic started by: Ami on July 08, 2008, 08:27:08 AM
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I wanted to continue this thread b/c it has helped me so much and the original one is locked. James posted a great post, at the end. It was about can we really love another person when we don't love ourselves.If you wanted to re-post it, James, that would be great.
I, for one,have started to face the truth of my life WITH the Spiritual Journeys thread. For the first time , I saw deception and called s/one on it. I did not stay mute, as I would have before. I said, "There IS an elephant in the living room. I see it."
I was angry b/c I was not treated well and was TOLD that I was.I was told that my reality was wrong, when I could see that it was right.
For me, I need to be angry in 3D life. I need to say "No" when s/one tells me that my eyes are NOT seeing what they obviously are.
I have touched on a new feeling in my heart.It is anger. I don't know where I was,but I was NOT angry at my M or H. Yesterday, I realized,in the heart, how angry I am at my H.
I did what James said.I tried to feel what I was feeling and express it. I did this, with many people, starting with the Spiritual Journey thread. It was very hard for me to be honest and direct,but James told me that if I would be honest, I could reclaim my true self.
I was honest with my F. My F has betrayal of me, in his blood. He can not stand up . I was angry at him and expressed it. Then, I saw him, as I had not before.I saw my F, for the first time. I am seeing my H for the first time and I think I am seeing myself for the first time.
I think that Dr G is right not to interfere unless there is close to bloodshed. Seeing how relationships work on the board teach me how relationships work in 3D,most especially how *I* function and can function if I am honest.
Ami
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Oh my heavens. There is no question that you have needed to find your anger. I seems so odd as I have needed to lose mine. Opposite sides of the same coin.
I hear an authenticity to your voice. I am glad for you and admire your endless determination to get to the root and dig it out. I hear the healing in your new voice and am thankful for you. Continue the fight, there is a pot of gold at the other end.
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Hi Ami,
I would like to say something...I think it's just fine to want to continue expressing your anger at CB on your own thread. Hers was effectively disabled.
But I wonder...could you re-title yours? Ami's Spiritual Journey . Or something like that?
This is gut-feeling, so please understand I'm just describing my honest reaction. When I read your thread title I felt like I was witnessing a boundary invasion. Just...it feels like you're saying, tough, it's mine now. Like a boundary doesn't matter, you don't need to respect that it was her thread, ever....
You can be as angry at CB as you like, of course. That's your business. But if it was anyone with whom there'd been such angry discussion, I'd feel the same way.
Do you understand why I might see it that way, even apart from my affection for CB? I hope so. I'm really not feeling a "taking sides" impulse...just wanted to share this with you.
love,
Hops
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Dear Hops,
I think you fail to see a basic dynamic which is that CB acted very meanly AND deceptively TO me and I simply called her on it. That is called having a voice. I am sorry that justified angry is so problematic for you,but it is your problem ,not mine.If a person choses to act poorly to others, they may experience repercussions, Hops. I am sorry that this basic life dynamic is so distressing to you. Ami
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Ami......I understand your valid anger and feel good to see you honoring your OWN feelings. I think this IS YOUR spiritual journey......Love, James
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Dear James
What an insightful and clear thinking post. You said so much in one sentence. What do they say? Brevity is the soul of wisdom. Thank you, friend. Love Ami
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Ami.
I hear and read you and think this thread ought to be entitled "My Journey With Anger". Spirituality might enter when amger has ceased..
Izzy
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Hi Izzy....thats the problem with spirituality.......James
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Well, Izzy, I will let YOU do that thread. See, we TOLD you that if you waited a little bit, you could start a fight. Ami
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Ami.
This is not beginning a fight. I have dealt with my anger and I saw this thread as you dealing with yours.
Izzy
EDIT In...and I thought perhaps I could add to supporting you on that journey. Where I have been.
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Since I can't figure out if you are hostile OR helpful , I will just say Hasta La Vista, baaaby. Ami
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What do they say? Brevity is the soul of wisdom.
Brevity is the soul of wit.
mud
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Wisdom, too. Ami
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Hi Ami,
Do you mean taking the title of CB's thread is a way to punish her?
If a person choses to act poorly to others, they may experience repercussions
Yikes. The repercussion related to you feeling angry at CB is that you'll take over her thread title? (I don't mean that literally. I was in publishing, and you can't copyright titles!) Maybe me feeling I was witnessing a person being punched (metaphorically) was a legitimate observation. She was being punished.
You're right that I find anger painful and confrontations distressing. Always have. Still do. And I'm often preoccupied with issues of punishment. I'm very very very leery of punishers. My D is studying justice in grad school; we talk about this stuff. She's no Desmond Tutu, but those are the things in the world that excite me most, spiritually. Tangent....
It's difficult for me to always understand the difference between self-defense and offense. I imagine Ghandi himself had trouble with it at times, or King. (My heroes.) I do think people should be able to speak about their anger, stand up to bullying or baiting, and say NO to other people. Taken me half a century's effort, but I can do it some now.
I do have a low internal twanging setpoint for aggression. Maybe too low...I have an emotional version of tinnitus, constant low-level twannnnnnnggggggg. I guess most poet types, or HSPs (not sure I am one, but something like that) are always picking up particles of rage in the atmosphere. I'm not always sure. In this instance, I thought I was not witnessing healthy assertiveness or "voice", but aggression. (I think sometimes on VESMB, people use "voice!" as a cover for acts of aggression. I think sometimes you do. Maybe I have too. I don't know if I know or observe myself well enough to be sure about that.)
Because I've observed a fair amount of aggression, much of my adult life I've spent thinking about how ELSE people who are hurt and angry might deal with each other.
One thing I have been thinking about a lot lately is that characteristic that a bully will always hit you WHEN you're down and WHERE you are already bruised. My boss does it. My brother does it. My mother did it. Schoolmates did it.
I think CB was likely bruised by her experience on her My Spiritual Journey thread -- but I don't know that. I think it took courage for her to steadfastly maintain a boundary and continuously say "No" to you and to Bill. She didn't sound afraid and maybe she wasn't. But I found her even tone and determination inspiring. Not just because I "fell on her side of the fence" in terms of the issues she was trying to discuss (I'm too ill informed about scripture to even be qualified), but because as I witnessed it, she was assertive, not aggressive.
I hope my saying this directly can come across, through this t-y-p-i-n-g, as a direct but not aggressive thing in itself. I can tell you honestly I am not feeling angry or aggressive as I type, for what that's worth. I'm feeling...thoughtful.
I found you taking her thread title immediately after all that conflict on her thread, to be aggressive. I guess that's all there is to what I'm trying to say. And it's clear that I'm a friend of CB's and have a high degree of trust in her, so that has to be factored in.
With my brother, the default was bullying. There was a sense in the air, always, that I would experience repercussions, when I "acted poorly" according to his judgment. He was judge, jury and executioner.
Anyway, my two cents turned into a plugged nickel, but it's time to get my act together.
Hope you have a good day. Everybody.
love,
Hops
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Ami......I understand your valid anger and feel good to see you honoring your OWN feelings. I think this IS YOUR spiritual journey......Love, James
Since I acted in an honest way, for the first time,with my F, I SAW how I had been trying to protect his image of himself by pretending NOT to see that he never could stand up. I never really called him on it, in a direct way b/c I did not want to "make" him feel badly about himself . I felt very guilty for thinkning of MY integrity before his.
I see that it was very detrimental to me that HE had to be the "nice guy" at all costs. He will fling me to the wind so he can appear nice.
I feel more connected to myself ,now. I had been blocking the truth of this b/c I wanted to believe that he was on my side, but he isn't.
You shall know the truth and the truth will make you free, always. It is a principle which will not fail. Ami
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Hi, Ami...
It's always risky to confront, or to make observations as I just did.
When someone is smart, and verbally facile, they can say cruel or deceptive things. They can work them into the middle of stuff that sounds true or brave or heroic or whatever.
I think "take your inventory" sounds like intimidation. Like bullying. Kind of like, Who Do You Think You Are? to challenge me? THIS IS HONESTLY HOW I READ IT. It doesn't mean I'm correct. I am not attached to being correct.
I am not challenging you because I want to fight with you, Ami. Really, I have no interest. I don't see how being another enemy for you to use your voice on would be in any way useful for you. Or for me, for that matter. But I am challenging you about your aggression sometimes, because on some level, I am reaching out to you. I'm not your enemy because I am making the observation. I am not feeling anger toward you.
I think one of the things about my life is that when I sense rage simmering in people, I tend to flow toward them, not away. I think that rage or anger or threats are always a cover for fear or hurt. I am used to the rage in the air and I kind of tune into some softer currents that are underneath it. I have no idea who elected me Flower-Toward. Maybe that's one of my own manifestations of narcissism. I dunno.
I am not skilled nor righteous in doing any of that. It's my inner beagle and she is no alpha. But what I try to do sometimes is to disregard the rage and flow a little toward the other things that I think are beneath the rage. The hurt or fear. Those are what I sense when I hear the sound of threats or bullying.
Of course, I am basically a coward. Online is a safe way to practice having dialogue, even with people who are capable of cruelty or bullying. And usually...I wind up stopping. Since I don't like to fight, there is nothing for me to win. And eventually, since most bullies will never stop hitting, I just wander away in order to have peace.
If you're wondering if I'm interested in receiving your "inventory"? Hmmm. Let me think... :lol:
I don't mind if you'd like to help me see something about myself, Ami. I know I've been critical of you here. So if the impulse is to be critical back, I don't blame you.
And whether I enjoy it or not, there might be some truth in it I could think about today.
love
Hops
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Dear Hops,
I wrote the inventory thing before I read your whole post, I see that you are trying to look for legitimate answers, I think, so I erased my post and will give YOUR post the time and thought it deserves,Hops, before I respond. Ami
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Wow!
I wasn't expecting that!
Thank you, Ami!
((((((((((((Ami))))))))))),
gosh almighty, it's a good world with surprises like that.
love to you,
Hops
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Shucks, Hops! That was sweet! We will talk later. Blessings, Ami
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Just wanted to pipe in with a meek little voice and say -- anger can absolutely be part of a spiritual journey. Oh boy -- I hate to take this one on, but even if you want to frame "spiritual journey" within the context of Christianity, it's still true. Christ got angry, plenty of times. And he more often than not steered people away from their families, not toward them. Anger has a place there. Without it, how would one fight social injustice? Anger can be a great motivator for things like that.
And it's just a feeling. It's not a negative. Feelings are just feelings. They are not good or bad. They just are. Getting in touch with them is learning who we are. And that, I should think, qualifies as a spiritual journey.
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Amen, LilyCat! If there is anything 'wrong' about anger it is not being honest about it.
Just wanted to pipe in with a meek little voice and say -- anger can absolutely be part of a spiritual journey. Oh boy -- I hate to take this one on, but even if you want to frame "spiritual journey" within the context of Christianity, it's still true. Christ got angry, plenty of times. And he more often than not steered people away from their families, not toward them. Anger has a place there. Without it, how would one fight social injustice? Anger can be a great motivator for things like that.
And it's just a feeling. It's not a negative. Feelings are just feelings. They are not good or bad. They just are. Getting in touch with them is learning who we are. And that, I should think, qualifies as a spiritual journey.
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I agree, Lilycat, no feelings are right or wrong. They just are. I do believe there are very, very wrong ways of expressing them. I believe my NF was very wrong to take his anger out on me as a child. I happen to agree with everything Hops has said here, but we differ in one respect: when I see rage simmering, I do not move toward it, I move away. This is simply a result of having decided, some years ago, that I'd grown up with anger, lived through my own years of rampant rage and prefer, now, to move on. The bottom line for me, here, I think is that I agree with Hops, plus I admire her for being kinder and perhaps stronger than I, in her determination to help, if indeed help is wanted.
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Gjazz..."lived through my own years of rampant rage and, now, prefer to move on". Gjazz, perhaps if you had not had those years of experiencing rage for yourself you might have not been so free to move on as you have. I think all people who have been injured, especially seriously, feel anger and rage and do have a right to these feelings. Hopefully it doesn't become destructive to others, but it is exactly a child's anger being shut down, by the more powerful parent or other, that prevents the child from being able to process his anger and move on. If the voice of the angry child is denied a very real possibility exists for this anger to transform into rage and then be acted out in terrible ways on innocent people. IMO It's important to remember, that this is just an on-line forum where few people actually know each other. What we feel here, and how we react sometimes, can be more a response from our past issues, how we felt then, rather than now, often times revealing to us, the internalized voice of the critical parent. In reality it's very safe here, even if we don't feel like it at times. An excellent place for those who want to heal and know themselves better, to practice the art of honesty with feelings.........James
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Sort of as a generic reply to everyone's comments about anger ...
Whether we feel it or not, acknowledge it or not, if we have anger, it is still there. Feelings are their own reality, one that exists in of itself.
I have often seen my therapist work with fellow group members (and probably me as well) and say that they are afraid of their anger -- afraid of what will happen if they let it out, usually, or sometimes afraid it will consume them, things like that. Sometimes they have been unconsciously afraid that their anger, if released, will hurt someone (emotionally). Things like that.
I guess one doesn't really prioritize feelings, but I place a lot of value on anger. It can be motivating, enlightening, and much more. But, as gjazz says, there are appropriate and inappropriate ways of expressing it (and I suppose all feelings).
For what it's worth, the other night my T said that it's important to know our feelings, but that they shouldn't run our lives. (Let's see, did he say it was then a personality disorder? I think so.) They are just an important piece of information to put into the mix.
James, as always, you are so erudite. God bless you.
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James: I haven't forgotten any of that, actually. I think the only way to deal with anger is acknowledge it fully. And yes, we are all at different places here on this board. What I do believe is that as we have all (or most of us) been through being innocent targets of someone else's rage, and WE feel quite rightly enraged at having had to deal with that, it is only fair we try not to visit on others those abuses which were once visited on us. I think if that sort of respect belongs anywhere, it really does belong on a board like this one, where people go to explore what has happened, not relive it.
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To clarify: I agree with much has been written here, except perhaps "hopefully it doesn't become destructive to others," only because I would take it farther and say that it will at some level become destructive to others, unless one lives in a void, but I do believe it is our responsibility not to make other people victims as we were.
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Dear Hops,
My sense was that the Spiritual Journey thread had places it needed to go. I did not re-start it as an "in your face" to any one. I knew that it might appear that way,but it was not done for that purpose. CB attacked me from the beginning of her "return" to the board with "WHAT is this??????? pertaining to me. The gossip thread was an attack on me using the Bible and the Torah. I can defend myself if I am provoked. If I am attacked, I will fight back and do not feel badly about it.
I want to address my comments to you, Hops.
I think that you want to quell strong feelings, anger and other strong emotions. I think that since YOU are uncomfortable with them, your natural response is to try to shut down other people who are having them.I think it is subconscious or semi-conscious. However,it is hurtful to the people you are shutting down, which has been me, on several occasions.
I think you want yourself and the world to be noble. It IS a good goal. However, reality is not always noble. That puts you in the position of denying reality within yourself and in others. Denying reality can make you lash out at others, even in 'gentle" ways. Acts of hostility are still such when they are spoken with gentle tones.
I have been on the recieving end of this, too.
I know that you want to defend your friends. We,all do. However, knowing yourself and your own reasons would be more beneficial that blind loyalty(for everyone,not just you).
I try to walk with integrity, apologize when I am wrong and still am commited to defending myself. I think that I can have all three. Ami
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I see what you're saying, Ami, and there's truth in it. I used to describe myself as anger phobic.
I genuinely can't always tell when I'm responding with an appropriate observation about aggression or bullying, and when I'm trying to hush the sound of anger because it's painful to me. If it feels like I'm suppressing someone else's legitimate anger, then that's not right.
I accept that I can do both.
I'll keep working on trying to discern the difference. And I hope there's a trend toward being constructive rather than repressive. I guess only time and life and a loooooooooong view will bear out how I do.
Anger's a major major puzzle to me. I have a lot to learn about it. The whole assertiveness vs. aggression topic seems to me to hold a lot of valuable clues, but I can still find the boundary between them as hard to detect as one noodle in a bowl of spaghetti. With alfredo.
Thanks for being courteous, Ami. I really appreciate your tone.
love
Hops
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Dear Hops,
*I* appreciate your tone with me, too. I guess most of us have LV's(little voices) and by definition we don't do anger very well. We are trying to find our voice and it is not always pretty. We were too pretty before, maybe. Now, we are trying to get less pretty and more real.
I see YOU doing that,Hops. Thank you for letting me be part of the process. Love Ami
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Well said, Ami.
I just had a talk with my inner beagle, and she advised me to take another look. Sigh. I will. But good tone still, I hope.
I think I was not lashing out nor trying to suppress you when I wrote. I am certain I wasn't feeling hostile. I tuned in carefully to check myself.
That said, I do think I can try to do that with angry or bullying people sometimes. You're right.
I just don't believe I was doing it this time.
I am so quick to abandon my own insights, when sometimes they're worth (for me, within myself) respecting. Doesn't mean I think myself infallible. And I do think I should examine and question myself as thoroughly as I can do others.
That's a lot of work. Tiring. Draining. So usually, I'd rather go waddling off after something else.
I think the issue is haunting to me because bullying was a huuuuuuuuuuuge part of my childhood.
So much to learn. And thanks again for the dialogue, Ami.
Hops
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Hi Ami,
I don't have an opinion on what you should call this thread.
I do want to tell you that I still champion your pursuit of healing your way and on your schedule.
tt
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Thanks Hops. I appreciate your support.
I'm good.
CB
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Thank you, TT. I appreciate it. Blessings to you, Ami
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Dear Hops,
Could you talk about the bullying. I think you alluded to it in some other posts. How did it affect you? Were you ever able to stand up for yourself? Did anyone help you? Did your parents help you? How does it affect you, today?
I think you could help many people ,if you care to explore it.If it is too personal to go there, I totally understand. Love Ami
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Hi Ami,
I wanted to continue this thread b/c it has helped me so much and the original one is locked.
I'm just curious. At this point are the issues you wantd to pursue per above, being addressed on this thread?
tt
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Dear TT
This thread was a Coming of Age for me. In N households, the last thing you can do is tell the truth. Then, over time, you do not even KNOW the truth.
I trusted how I felt and what I percieved ,on this thread. For that reason, it was precious to me .
Actually, Hops and my interchange was beautiful and for that alone, the thread was worth it. Ami
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As I continue to try to face what is, NOT what I wish was, my past is opening up to me. I never wanted to see one particular thing,most of all. That was that my M bullied me ,on purpose. It is so "nice" to think that people cannot help what they do b/c they have emotional issues, etc.
I think I knew, down deep, that my M bullied me b/c she could. I was weak and vulnerable( a child) and she could throw her anger on me b/c I had no one to stand up for me.She knew it was wrong. She never did it in front of other people, relatives etc.I had a large extended family
My Aunt told me she never knew. Part of my M's hate was a violent jealousy toward her sister, my Aunt, whom I always talk about. A shrink told me that my M got back at her sister through me, which my M said was true.
This was the deep thiing I did not want to face, above all else, the choice, the wilfullness of it.She let her primal feelings, rage , hate ,jealously explode on me b/c I could not do anything about it.
As I face this, I have more empathy for myself. My FOO pattern was I had to make my M feel good ,at all costs. I had to reassure her that she was a good mother. *I* had to look good,in every way, for her. I did it up until recently. I wanted to look good for her so she would not have to face the type of mother she was. I never called my F on the fact that he was a wimp b/c I did not want him to have to face the truth about himself.
I was the sponge, no needs.
I think that mental illness categories ,sometimes, let the person off the hook. Conscience is one thing and mental illness is another. Killers kill in secret. So, they KNOW they are wrong. Then,people say that they could not help it.
I always gave my M an excuse.
She knows right from wrong, so where is the excuse?
I appreciate a place where I can express my pain and my feelings. Thank you to anyone who responds. I appreciate it. Ami
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Ami......Your mom wasn't cruel to you in front of others....so she knew what she was doing. I think your right, they know. My parents did exactly the same thing, they made it look so great to be a member of my family. In fact, several of my long time friends, who know my parents, turned on me when I started opening up with them about the facts of what happened, and now we are no longer friends. They blamed me. Just a facade to make them look good and get away with crime. My parents constantly coached or threatened us kids, they would say, "we never talk about family matters with outsiders". All I ever got when I asked them why, "you just don't ever do that, it's wrong of you"..............They knew what they were doing IMO.......James
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Thanks James and Leah
I see what James is saying. You MUST respond with your heart and with your truth and THEN blinders will come off your eyes and you will see what you would not before b/c you were in denial.
I saw s/thing really big last night. My F told me that he had compassion for my H and was calling him. I realized that my F always had so little compassion for me that ,my F COULD have a heart for the person who abused me for over 20 years and that abuse resulted in my son's death. What type of wimp could do that? I think he is worse than the N. He looks good,"normal",but he will betray me ,without a thought and not relent when it is pointed out. He has no heart for me.
Ami
PS I just had the rudest awakening, the rudest. I am sitting here, shaking. I called my M and told her that I didn't like what my F was doing.She told me it was MY fault that *I* stayed with an abuser all these years SO it is OK if my F comforts the abuser.Then she tried to tell me that my Aunt was frends with her son's ex-wife,after the divorce, so THAT was the same. I could see it all. I am floored, just floored at what a monster,no feeling, an N is. I really am breathless and speechless.I think I came out of denial.
I am sure that people will think I am horrible,but I told her that I will be happy when she dies and the flames of Hell open up and get her and she will be there ,forever.
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Ami......I remember how painful it was for me when my illusion that I was loved by my family was shattered. You have my most heartfelt sympathy right now. It takes time to heal such a terrible wound and sharing you feelings with those who really love and care for you will help. From my experience I am starting to understand that this was the moment I started to find my own life while I started painfully leaving my family behind. You always say, "The truth will set you free", and I believe it will, eventhough it is sometimes very painful.........Love, James
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Dear Leah and James
Your warm words went from your mouth to my heart. I am hurting,but I feel like I have gotten rid of a big tumor. It was all lies. I had to keep it buttressed up at the expense of reality and my health. It took a terrible toll.Now, I see it and it is a relief. Thanks for being there, James and Leah. I so ,so appreciate it. Love Ami
((((((((((((James, Leah))))))))))))))
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There is a strength and a power in calling a spade a spade. I called my M a monster ,to her face. She was as cold as ice.I saw the truth. She has no heart for me,,no empathy. My F does not have a heart for me ,either.
A long journey has come to an end. It was a horrible , bitter journey . I had no idea who I was ,like a brainwashed cult victim. I floundered in terrible insecurity,but it seems like a new path has opened and I can see the way more clearly.
Ami
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It is really hard to see things as they are, anything, and to call it. I just told my H that he tried to collude with anyone he could against me. He said,"That is crazy" We al know that that is typical for N's(N ish)
I see that I would see things, but never ever would say them, as if there were two planes of existence, that which WAS happeneing and that which you pretended was happening. I was lost to my own feelings, which was probably the worst thing of all. I want to reclaim my own feelings. Am I really OK? Are MY feelings really OK? Do I have to hide away, as I thought I did? Can I trust myself, after all this time? Am I human or some version of "bad" as my M said?
These are all the questions I have ,as I take the next step. If anyone could relate, I would appreciate it. I think it is about trusting yourself, again, as you did as a small child. Ami
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Ami.......The injustices you suffered as a child were real, eventhough it seems sometimes people may tell you otherwise. Your latent anger is real too, and directing it at the real target must go a long way in regaining your power they stole, by their submission of you, thru intimidation and fear. I wonder, as you do this how does it make you feel? answer only if you feel comfortable...........James
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That is so sweet of you to ask. I will think about it, today ,and answer later. Thanks, James. Love Ami
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Dear James
I have many feelings,now. I told my M the truth I knew all my life, but could never utter.I told her that she was a monster. What else would you call it, even though it sounds harsh. The harsh thing was my living it,NOT my telling her the truth of what I lived.
I realized that I always had to take care of her feelings.*I* had to lie about the truth b/c it would hurt her. .She had to be protected from feeling badly about herself at all costs.If I didn't protect her, I thought she would hurt me, I guess.
I didn't protect her feelings this time. I told the truth.
I feel really, really down b/c I see the truth of it,but I feel some hope that *I* was never the problem.I do have more empathy for myself. Thanks for asking,James. Love Ami
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Ami.......Yes! quit protecting the parents and express your anger at the parents. You can, in time, work your way back to your infancy and know your past and set yourself free by seeing for yourself what happened. It's in the way you feel and act today but understanding has to take you all the way back home. Don't do drugs, meditation, religion, positive thinking or any thing else that shuts your feelings down. Trust them, they have your complete history without you knowing it. It is real that we can learn to understand what they are saying in context with our early past. If you keep them open you will learn to bring out and interpret body feelings into a language you can understand. Symptoms are nothing more than old body memories trying to let you know what happened. Don't shut your feelings down. Very intense pain and other feelings may occur let these happen. they are nothing more than how your child really felt back then. Its the repressed trauma/pain that your feeling not ones from today. This process, does lead to genuine and lasting healing. These are the ones that create symptoms in the present but they are the hidden reality of your childhood. You have not been conscious of this till now......Love, James
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Oh James,
YOU are the best! Thank you so much. Love Ami
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Am-Identifying your anger and expressing it especially to the N is very uncomfortable! We have never in our lives defied or stood up to them. Then it is easy for them to label us as unstable. So the problem person effectively turns us into the problem. But stand firm and take the flack. Eventually they will give up-it may take time but you will get there. And your anger will subside a bit I think.
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Thank you, Kelly! Love Ami
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I went on a spiritual journey as a result of this thread. I realized that I must see and face the truth,no matter HOW outlandish or unreal it seems. I had a big brrakthrough when I told my parents that they did not have a heart(empathy) for me and my M said,"Yes, you ARE right. We do not have the proper empathy."They let me stay with an abused man and never lifted a finger to help with the barest level of support(emotional).
The saddest thing of all, but the truth,is that I had to become strong before they would respect me. You would think that you COULD be weak with parents. It is very sad. I wish I knew it earlier. I have three N's who are beaten down, now. It is so ,so late in the game. I was almost destroyed by them, all ,and all of them, together. Ami
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Oh, but Ami, look how strong you are to have done what you've done.
I don't mean to take away from your feelings hurt and vulnerability and all, but to knock down three Ns -- wow! And confronting your mother like that -- wow, I could never do that. I am amazed that your mother admitted her culpability -- just because I think it's rare when people do it at that level (what she did).
That is sad about having to become strong. You should have been able to be a helpless, vulnerable child who was supported and protected. I read a passage in Alice Miller last week (early pages) that really hit home with me -- "what would you have done if I had come to you as a weak, vulerable child, helpless, and with needs" (to paraphrase). I thought of it when I read your post.
I resonated, too, because of what my pastoral counselor said Saturday about being called into the first meeting, and how I was vulnerable and there was no one there to speak up for me. It pushed a lot of buttons not just about the meeting, but about my home life.
And you are right. My regular therapist frequently says that you get more out of life by dealing with reality, no matter what it is or how painful. This is the approach he takes and I have to say, I think it's very true. Reality doesn't go away. That's why it's called reality.
So good for you, Ami, for living through the pain and getting strong and pursuing your wholeness. I am so sorry that you weren't protected when you should have been, and for all the other awful things that you've endured. I wish I could undo them for you.
((((((Ami)))))))
LilyCat
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Thank you Lily
What we missed as children of N's was the ability to protect ourselves. *I* did. I am just learning(re-learning) it, now. If people hurt me, I will fight back. That is what 'normal" people do.
The sad part is learning it so,so,so late--bleh. I guess I should be proud that I backed down 3 N's(LOL) Love Ami
((((((((Lily))))))))))
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It may be sad to learn them late (if you think it's late, I don't know how old you are), but you've learned them, and learning and growing at any age is a great thing. Not everyone does it. (Did I tell you about my sister?....lol)
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Thanks ,Lily
I know "where" I want to go. It is trusting and valueing myself. I was stripped of general trust in myself and it has resulted in a very painful existence, as most of us,on the board, know.I am starting to call a spade a spade and truth has power and honesty,inherent in it.
I want to feel the floor(stability) under my feet. Some days it seems more possible than others. Thanks for your wonderful posts, Lily. Love Ami