Voicelessness and Emotional Survival Message Board
Voicelessness and Emotional Survival => Voicelessness and Emotional Survival Message Board => Topic started by: Gaining Strength on July 10, 2008, 01:48:35 AM
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I will build a slow thread about this. It will be important for me because this will finally lead to my version of NC with my mother.
I believe that her lieing has been life long. But it has been undeniable for the past 7 years since my son was born and my husband died. She lies of unconsequential things and things that matter as well. She lies to my face and continues the lie even when I call her on it with incontrovertible proof. She just continues the lies or piles more lies on top of the other lies.
Ex: We were traveling over the 4th. We were driven to the airport at her arrangement on our return. We started out for the airport at 9:15 am and I asked her what time our flight left. 12 noon. "Why are we leaving so early. " "The airlines told me that we needed to leave at 9:15." "Mother, that is a lie. The airlines doesn't have a clue where you are leaving from." "They asked me and told me we needed to leave at 9:15." "The airlines don't do that. You are lieing." "Yes they did - they told me we needed to leave at 9:15."
Why lie? She lies about everything.
My brother and I recently accompanied her to her dr's office because she had fallen (and had lied about that. ) And we wanted him to know it and to help us confront her on her increasing frailty and need for significant lifechanges. We required an evaluation by a psychiatrist, one whom we know, the head of the department of Geriatric Psychiatry. He is excellent. She lied to us straight to our faces on Monday when we overheard a telephone call from her physician's office making the referral. She lied to me again this morning about what she was doing today. She lied because she knew we intended to accompany her to the psychiatrist's office and would give him information critical to a correct evaluation. She lied to the psychiatrist and to us about her visit. After confirming some facts about the appointment I will confront her in writing, via e-mail and cc my brother. From now on I will not have a relationship with someone who is a pathological liar and all communications will be in writing. She tells everyone, including the psychiatrist, that I misunderstand and misinterpret her and had a poor memory of what she says. I'm done. I'm angry - very angry, rageful. I'm done.
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((((((((((((SS)))))))))))
tt
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((((((SS))))))))))
I am facing the same thing with my mother. I didn't realize until the last two years that she has always lied to everyone, and me included. Now that I realize this, I can remember a hundred times that she lied when I was a child too, but never thought about it. She lies enough so that I now assume she is lying even when she isn't. For a while, I tried to catch her in lies, but many times she was actually telling the truth when I did this. Regardless, I absolutely trust nothing the woman says and because of it cannot bear to even hear her voice. It's funny, were she at least honest, I might be able to put up with some of this, but it is the lies, and the fact that everyone pretends they are OK that really get to me. As you can see, I am also very angry.
SS, I am so sorry you have to deal with this. Keep calling out mthe truth so that she at least knows she isn't "pulling one over" on you. I even think that they get to the point that THEY can't separate the lies from the truth. It is exactly like a child - you want it to be a certain way, just pretend and then it is....
Take care SS and keep writing as it will help you, I think.
Love, Beth
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((((((((SS)))))))) (((((((Beth))))))))
I even think that they get to the point that THEY can't separate the lies from the truth. It is exactly like a child - you want it to be a certain way, just pretend and then it is....
Beth, that's what I've come to think, too.
It's all about appearances.
Whether they're trying to appear tough and ferocious or sweet and kind, there's not an ounce of reality in that act.
It is absolutely ALL, ever, only, without exception, about spinning a false reality of the moment... with no foundation, no depth, and no thought for the impact on others.
Sheer illusion.
Carolyn
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Dear SS
*I have the opposite mother. She will tell the brutal truth about everything and use THAT as a weapon. The tools may vary,but the NM is the same at the core. I know it must be very,very hard for you to face the truth. It is one of the most painful things anyone can do. The hopes for a parent who will love you flow away like water going downhill.
I hear your voice emerging stronger as you face the truth. When I am in the greatest darkness, I use ,"You shall know the truth and the truth will make you free." I cling to it.
We are promised freedom in every area,including emotional and mental.Freedom is being unencumbered by pain and sorrow. As you face her, you will face your own beauty. She was always the problem,NOT you. That is the pot at the end of the rainbow. Love you, Ami
(((((((((((((SS)))))))))))))))
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I'm sorry to hear what you're going through SS. I'll just add that lying is a tool of the N. One of many. Manipulation requires the occasional, or not so occasional lie. When it's an aquaintence or co-worker or stranger, you can phase them out of your life, but when it's mother, it can instill in one a rage (or a depression, I suppose) so intense it can hardly be contained. And that is precisely why they do it. Like Leah says, it's just good, old-fashioned, gaslighting. She wants you to think that you are the crazy one, that you are the unreliable one, that you are the incompetent one. She's a con-artist, therefore, her lies, to her, are real. Con-people have the abiity to believe their own lies. That's why you feel like you want to hit something, because the lies fly in the face of what you KNOW to be the truth. Try something different. When she lies, you smile at her. You give her that look you would give a toddler making his/her first attempt at a lie. Patronize her with a "there, there.." and a pat on the head. Let her know you know she's lying with the strong confidence that she is unable to rattle you with her lies. Take the bite away. When she's lying and you can't prove it, begin to give her that same look, maybe even do the finger shaking motion that says, "oh you little rascal, you, what are you up to again.." and make it look like she's the incompetent one. The more confident and patronizing the better. I think this would cause her to lighten up on the lying because she's not doing it to empower you, she's doing it to frustrate you. Don't allow her. Personally, I would go with NC. Who has time or energy for games and tests? Take care and best to you with whatever decision you make. Oh, and I'll just add this quote from a book mentioned in another thread where the lying of the N is described.
John Steinbeck on the manipulative lies of Cathy Ames: (major female N character of East of Eden)
“Cathy was a liar, but she did not lie the way most children do. Hers was no daydream lying, when the thing imagined is told and, to make it seem more real, told as real. That is just ordinary deviation from external reality. I think the difference between a lie and a story is that a story utilizes the trappings and appearance of truth for the interest of the listener as well as of the teller. A story has in it neither gain nor loss. But a lie is a device or profit or escape. I suppose if that definition is strictly held to, then a writer of stories is a liar—if he is financially fortunate.
Cathy’s lies were never innocent. Their purpose was to escape punishment, or work, or responsibility, and they were used for profit. Most liars are tripped up either because they forget what they have told or because the lie is suddenly faced with an incontrovertible truth. But Cathy did not forget her lies, and she developed the most effective method of lying. She stayed close enough to the truth so that one could never be sure. She knew two other methods also—either to interlard her lies with truth or to tell a truth as though it were a lie. If one is accused of a lie and it turns out to be the truth as though it were a lie. If one is accused of a lie and it turns out to be the truth, there is a backlog that will last a long time and protect a number of untruths.”
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SS: My NF is a consummate liar, and he lies to manipulate and control. I did exactly what you are doing: demanded every contact be in writing. It did help in my case, and I hope it does in yours. If your NM is anything like my NF, though, be prepared to feel like ripping your hair out, because she'll dance around her own words like a whirling dervish, then refuse to write anything at all.
I've often wondered about the lying when no lie is necessary, or even beneficial. I've wondered if he can't tell truth from fiction. But I THINK he can, I think he just likes the other version better. One thing that might be hopeful: he has gotten better over the years. He's nearly seventy now, and catches himself going down that road, and retreats. Sometimes.
Take care, SS. It's such a tough thing to have to go through. I thoroughly understand your rage and frustration. I once ripped the phone out of the wall. And didn't plug it in again for three months.
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Ah... SS... I so understand. Especially the anger part.
My oldest daughter has lied to me consistently, since about the time she was in 4th grade. And just did it again a couple weeks ago.
But you know, I couldn't say if the lying is intentional; if she truly means to manipulate me or if, in her own mind - what she's saying is what she really believes. If the latter, then I'm afraid whatever mental illness affects my mother - is affecting my daughter as well. Same kinds of behavior, really.
So sad, these people who need help but don't realize it - even when it's pointed out to them.
So maddening, as they can be pretty highly functioning (not necessarily normally) - when they choose to be.
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Shame Slayer.......I think feeling you anger is a good thing and you do know why you feel this. Ultimately it's an emotional reaction from being hurt, possibly much of it originating in childhood. More to the point, maybe feeling anger inside has never been enough, (doing this left me in a loop of anger that I could not free myself from) expressing it in an open way I feel is key, to break the cycle. NC is a form, as I see it, of being true to your anger. A gift of voice to your ownself as you are refusing to shoulder the burden of blame any longer and see your mother for who she is, in your eyes. You have decided to speak up. In my experience, this moment was scary and painful, but I found it put me on a road towards real freedom, although it takes time. My very best to you as you are finding your own courage now to speak up........love and support, James
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((((Shame Slayer, Gratitude)))))) and anyone else whose parents were consummate liars.
This is awful. One should able to trust one's parents to be truthful.
And yes, they do believe their own lies. My therapist says this frequently -- talks about patients he's had (not by name or other ID, of course) who believe their own lies. They really believe they're telling the truth. Scarey. I mean, they swallow it whole hog.
This is really a significant loss -- the lack of a truthful parent -- that needs to be mourned. I am so sorry for you. You deserve better.
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Thanks so much to those of you who have written.
My own rages surprises even me. I keep tring to find the pigeon hole to shove it into - what kind of rage; is it depression, is it short term, is it permanent, how deep. I'm analyzing my rage. What a waste!
I see that those of you who have responded are offering sympathy and I am so appreciative. It is helpful. It means so much to me. I also see that some of you have actually experienced the same thing. That is a comfort beyond words.
My rage is deep. I am going to make an effort to harness it to move myself forward. I might be able to do this because at last I believe my own self rather than the lies. For a life time I have "argued" against the lies as though only if I win that argument with whom? am I correct. This time I don't need to win. I AM correct. She is a lie - she doesn't "do" lies, she IS a lie.
I wish I had the email I sent her to post here. In part I sent her a definition of PATHOLOGICAL LIAR from Wikipedia that reads as if it were a description of my mother in particular not a pathological liar in general.
She now lies about her lies. She told her gerontologist, in front of me and my brother, that she never told me that she told the roofer that she didn't have any money and hung up on him. She told me she didn't say that. She told my brother she didn't say that. She told the geriatric psychiatrist whom my brother, sister-in-law and I know personally, that she didn't say that. Never mind that she did and that she told the same to my sister-in-law and the roofer has confirmed it. She doesn't even deal with the lie she told my sister-in-law. She simply makes a point to tell all these folks that I am wrong.
2 or 3 weeks ago she told her financial advisor in front of his investment guy, my brother and ME that her $8,000 + MC bill was one I rang up in New York with my son last Thanksgiving. The next day I found her mid-Nov statement on which she owed just under $6,000 before I went to New York. She got sick at the last minute and did not go. She refused to get a dr's note and get a refund on her airline ticket and she had booked the hotel which cost over $1300. I still have ALL the receipts from that trip. I spent just over $800. A far cry from the $8000 she accused me of in front of those other people. She knew better and I have proof. Thank God my brother no longer views me as his enemy. Did he, he could have taken her statement and gone to town over that. That is exactly the sort of thing that I think of when I think about what you Hops have been through with your brother. Had anyone chosen to believe her it could have opened up all sorts of investigations and recriminations. That was a very, very dangerous accusation which she refuses to back down from.
My rage is pouring forth as though the boil has finally come to a head that is erupting after years and years of pussy inflamation.
My true prayer is that this time my rage does not turn inward and destroy me but that at last it goes outward and propels me toward further healing.
I am ANGRY!!!!!
I am going to go have a drink ------ with lunch --------- but I never drink. Please no moralizing. I am going to have a drink.
I couldn't sleep last night. Up, wide awake 2am, 3am, 4am. I am ANGRY!!!
I have other things to write about but I can only remember them when I am driving. For two days I have had an insight that I want to post about but put me in front of the computer and I can't remember. Too much rage.
I owe several of you here individual responses and others who haven't posted here as well. I am in the midst of a rage fest and ask for a short delay. I am thankful for this community. AS many of you know, I have few friends and only my brother and mother's companion to discuss this with. My brother has a wife and son to work these things out with. I don't begrudge him but it makes it different. He believes that he is not angry about her lieing and that he has worked through this in many ways. Perhaps he has. But, and he actually recognizes this, her lies are more pointed towards me and not towards belittling and putting him down. There is a difference. Yesterday he suggested that I detach. Of course he is correct but I have a ways to go before I can do that. I have much venom to spew before I can come even close to detaching. Right now I am RAGING!!!!!!!!
Now I remember what it is I have been wanting to write about. When I next log on I will write about the way in which I take EVERYTHING personally and the great damage that has done to me in basic human relationships as well as pragmatically. I know why and that is a recent deep in the heart out of the head revelation. It is because so much WAS personal, so much was DONE personally to me in my FOO. Everything WAS personal and I simply saw the world being personally mean and destructive to me and have reacted to the world that way. And I have given up on myself and on the world because of that. I think it is possible that this experience will catapult me through this destructive way of living into this world. I pray it will at last allow me to live into this world as myself not as a victim of my FOO/world. I pray for this rebirth.
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I wish I could feel your rage,SS. Go on Alice Millers website. She says the real healing comes when you feel the rage. I think Miller ,herself, on her website, could be an Enlightened Witness for you, right now. I am always here for you,whenever you need me, too. Love Ami
(((((((((SS--rage is GOOD)))))))))))
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SS: I relate to everything you've said here. I remember it like it was yesterday, screaming, literally, in my apartment, pulling my hair out, throwing the phone. When I refused him contact, my NF lied about me to everyone. He told my sisters-in-law I'd said things I not only NEVER said, but didn't believe. He was trying to isolate me, punish me for not giving in. The damage lasted years--in fact I'd say some still exists. A drink? Hon, I had about five. Take care of yourself. I relate also to the taking everything personally. When you've been attacked over and over, that's natural I think. But there are good people and they will help, if you can find the trust to let them in. hang in there.
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SS: I can relate to taking everything personally - being irritated and overly angry about just normal life things.
I think, for me - it was because I WASN'T addressing that pool of rage/anger. Once I did - the other stuff pretty much disappeared. It's coming up again for me, in addressing my smoking... and needs to be dealt with again...
Remember - there's a lot of power of in rage. It's exhausting. If you don't feel up to your usual routine, that's why. And you must be careful to point your rage where it belongs... not let others become collateral damage.
I hope that you do exhaust the initial intensity of the rage - let it burn itself out on it's own like a wildfire - in due time. It will remain - but not be a constant in your life; not overwhelming and will continue to dwindle away.
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SS,
I really think it is great you are raging - odd thing to say, I know, but I believe it is an extremely important step in your growth and separation.
Lots of love,
Beth
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Hey SS,
Go right ahead and rage....Lord knows, I have... I raged my head off in the T with my ex-h.......why the lies,,,, lier,,, lierrrrrrr.....why can't he just tell the damn truth... it's stories.......I was there... and look... he is LYING!!!!!!!!!!!!!! and yes he was
The T told me... look he has been lying his whole life.. he is 33 years old.. his lies, forgets them, then lies about the lies...they eventually become a whole story..his lie are truth and truth is lies.. he does not think normal, Deb... his thoughts are not normal...that is why he is here...
He has ABNORMAL THINKING........look at all the years.... he just can't... SNAP OUT OF IT...first we have to find out why....and that could take... many... many....many years.... and only if he wants it.....
But he does not think right.. think right,, think right..... think right....not normal thinking.....not normal....
And this SS helped me...I stopped thinking about what he was lying about...and started thinking Abnormal... they are sick...sick thinking abnormal thinking.....they cannot tell the truth.. they cannot stop changing the story... they cannot not make up a story... they are abnormal....thinkers.... with abnormal thoughts.........
I'm sorry SS I know how angry you are....
Love
Deb
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SS,
My rage is deep. I am going to make an effort to harness it to move myself forward. I might be able to do this because at last I believe my own self rather than the lies. For a life time I have "argued" against the lies as though only if I win that argument with whom? am I correct. This time I don't need to win. I AM correct. She is a lie - she doesn't "do" lies, she IS a lie
On the brighter side.. I would like to :::
Welcome you home it's going to really be alright....
Love
Deb
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SS,
You're doing great! This has got to be hard for you, but it's also so healthy. I admire your courage.
And, I'm insanely jealous! I've had two therapists tell me I need to get in touch with my anger, and although I can some, it is still an enormous road block for me. Wish I could get in touch with it as you are doing.
Keep going!! Bravo!!
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Dear Lily
This has helped me get in touch with my anger. I can't feel anger toward my parents too well, but I can feel it when other people hurt me. So, I take the anger I feel toward other people and I try to see that it IS root anger to my parents. It has helped me get in touch with my anger. Love Ami
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Dearest SS.
I think your rage will move your forward. No use sharing any of it with Mom. She will just put you through the spin cycle one more time.
Anger is the key to letting go and claiming your own soul and psyche back. At some level I know this and I am fertively dabbling at it. When I do I get so scared. But you are claiming your life back.
My heart goes out to you. Best no contact. So you can be free to grow.
Love,
Sea storm
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Hi SS,
Sea Storm: I think your rage will move your forward. No use sharing any of it with Mom. She will just put you through the spin cycle one more time.
Truer words were never spoken. You won't get any acknowledgement from her that she is lying. You will only heap more frutstration, hurt, guilt and disappointment, on yourself by going off on her. She will never get it.
tt
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I'm having a hard time getting on the internet at times and even moreso getting on this site. Who knows why.
Today is the 7th anniversay of my husband's death. It have not been looking forward to it.
I am sitting at home on the verge of getting stuff done. Hope I get pushed over the edge. I am so close. I wanted to get on line several hours ago. I "needed" to come here but couldn't. I am going to rest a bit before I work hard for 2 hours and then go pick up my son and go to the cemetary.
Life is so weird. I believe that life is just beginning for me. I think for the first time I am getting beyond the nightmare that has been my life. I believe that I have lived something other than who I am and what I have as potential.
I had very interesting conversations with both my mother's doctor and her psychiatrist. They both consulted with me even though it crossed the boundary of confidentiality. The psychiatrist is setting up another appointment for her next week which will include my brother and me. He was completely unaware of her lieing. I filled him in on a few choice one - the ones I posted about here.
I didn't realize it until this morning but I got a kind of confirmation or reaffirmation from both of them. THAT is extremely healing. I have also gotten reaffirmation from my brother for an entire year - the first out of my entire life.
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I have just received a call from one of my mother's financial planners. We discussed some of her financial issues. I cannot tell you what a difference it makes for me to be in contact with people who truly believe I have something worth while to say and can be of help.
For one thing, it makes it clear to me that my own issues are purely psychological. That is actually helpful to me because I know I can overcome that.
Over the next week or so I will be working hard and deliberately to overcome the last of this darkness in my life and move into a functional life. I am so close.
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Hip Hip HOORAY!
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SS............Do you remember when I wrote to you sometime back and told you what I saw in you? Now, I think you are getting ready to meet the woman/girl that I see in you. Congratulations ........Love, James
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SS,
You are. You are becoming clearer every day, and stronger. It's obvious.
I am so sorry about the anniversary of your husband's death. That must be very hard. Wish I could be there to hold your hand.
Your courage and strength are shining through!
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...Ami, thank you. I actually can get in touch with anger at my parents, pretty well. It's being angry in the moment, or with people that I am angry with now, that I have trouble with. Mostly being able to say something in the moment. Thank you, though. You're always an inspiration.
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((((((((((SS)))))))))) :cry:
tt
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You are an inspiration to me SS, always have been. You embody the good in human nature and I am proud to be your friend. Love Ami
((((((((((SS)))))))))))
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(((((((( SS ))))))))))
How are you? I just wanted to say that you are truly an inspirational woman, of courage and determination.
Please know that you have been at the fore of my thoughts, and in my prayers.
Love & Blessings,
Leah
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I had a dream last night. I had been travelilng with my mother. It was the day to leave and I had to pack. I drove my car to run an errand and the car began to sputter. I finally realized I had run out of gas. I got out of the car, it was a busy hwy. I walked a short way to a gas station. The owner was in a tux and was leaving. Clearly the station was closing. One of the attendants approached to help me. I told him I needed gas. (I was fearful because I didn't have any money for a container.) But he helped me without hesitation. As we walked back my fears compounded. How would I get packed in time, my mother would be gtting ratcheted up and my panic escalated just imagining it. Suddenly I remembered that I had not considered getting my car home - Then I saw the freedom of getting my mother on the plane while I drove, freedom in so many ways. Yet the fear of facing her was overwhelming.
She had immense control over me even in her absense, despite the lack of rationalism. Most people simply stepped back as though she was right simply because she was my mother. Noone had the courage to call a spade a spade.
In another scene I was in the same setting but in a large 12 step type meeting to discuss my struggles. We were going around in a circle. When my turn came others began talking among themselves. I stood up to speak and I would not, there was so much talking and so noone to listen. Several people told me to go on and speak. I hesitated then sat down, I was still urged to speak. I became more and more frustrated, still urged on I lost my temper and yelled, then sat down abruptly. My son began wailing and I tried desparately to comfort him.
When I finally got up I felt yet another step closer to fredom, to cutting the strings. It is astonishing to me how my parents control from early years still reigns.
I sent an e-mail to my mother earlier this week. She called me per usual. She asked if I were angry and then followed with, "What did I do?" Even though she had just the day before proudly let me know that she had seen the psychiatrist that my brother and I had arranged and she had been deceptive about her appointment even though we had asked repeatedly about when it was scheduled. She never responded to my e-mail and has not called again. My brother is out of town and I haven't had much contact with him either. It is surprisingly painful and difficult.
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I want to write about that experience of taking things personally.
I had taken my son out to breakfast last week. We have two breakfast places we like. One is VERY inexpensive. They don't charge for children and their prices are low as well, e.g. $1.30 for bacon. We usually get out of there for under $7. The other place has similar food but is expensive and we usually get out of there for about $20.00 for the same amount or less food. We went to the more expensive place the other day. As I was asking for the check I noticed that I began to get irritable and suddenly I saw it - I felt the high prices were taking advantage of ME. I was taking their prices personally - even though I knew before I went there that they were expensive. Completely irrational.
As a child, we lived what was then the high life, private schools, expensive clothes, ski trips to Aspen twice a year, a month long summer vacation in the mountains occassional "special" trips. But I never had any "control" over the money. I couldn't "ask" for anything but could only "receive" in a passive way. THAT is the key description of my current struggle.
In this role I became resentful of others who had things that I wanted - sort of a spoiled way. Ultimately, what I have realized recently is that I developed a sense of standing outside the window looking in - waiting for life to happen, hoping, hoping - no control, out of control. Then I saw that there is a switch that I can flip - FLIP - I can set MY sights on something and go for it. That is totaly new for me. I have lived in this passive role my entire life and it is humiliating to me and makes me angry. Yet it is even still very, very difficult for me to flip that switch out of passive into pursuit.
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We are speaking the same language. I guess when you become accustomed to living the high life and then suddenly you are struggling and your parents have the means to help but they do not even acknowledge your struggles. That with trying to get you to do more on top of your already stressful life.
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Taking my power back - gave it to them because I didn't have a choice. Finally understanding how to get it back. It is not easy but no point in giving up.
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SS,
It sounds to me that your dream was about "running out of gas" with your mother. I think it talks about you coming to terms with who she really is, and that you are close to being done with her -- or wish you could be, anyway. Your fears started getting stronger as you re-approached your mother. (Came back from the gas station.) All this must talk about your conflict -- feeling like you have no more to give, and/or don't want to, vs. the piece of you that still wants to "have gas." It is a very understandable conflict. It sounds to me like a dream that really hallmarks your progress and where you are right now. (As they all do, theoretically, but this one has that quality to it, especially.)
I think the second scene talks about that same conflict from a slightly different angle. You were with people who in theory were supposed to listen to you and possibly even support you, yet they were oblivous to your needs. You kept trying and trying to talk, but couldn't. You withdrew in frustration.
This sounds like a description of your relationship with your mother. Over the course of your life you've tried and tried to have a relationship with her, and to tell her about your needs -- but she hasn't listened.
Your son (in the dream) most likely represents you, your vulnerable self/child. Your inner child was wailing because she (he) was hurt and frustrated. You comforted him. (You.)
I always know when I'm dreaming about my own most vulnerable self when I dream about either of my two previous cats. They represent the little girl in me; the one most likely to be vulnerable and get hurt. It's an image that never fails.
Dreams are so interesting, aren't they?
Anyway, that's my two cents.
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Dear SS
I am gonna think about your dreams over the course of the day and write, as I get ideas. I have a few, now.In dreams,houses can represent the person and cars may, too. Your car is breaking down. You may feel that you are breaking down, emotionally and physically, with all the stress you endure and did endure, with your family. The gas station is interesting. You need gas(fuel for you, too) and it is closed. You can't get it, BUT the attendent has on a Tux. This is very unusual, so would have meaning. It might be the disparity between your parents wealth(tux) and the gas station(modest means).However,even modest means seems closed to you. You can't seem to get your basic needs(fuel for your life) met.
You started panicing about your M. You would not be able to pack(plan,manage) right and she would be angry. Then, you saw a solution, you could put her in another mode of travel, not with you. You could then take your car(you) home.
How did you feel at the end of the dream? Were you distressed or at peace?
I will think about the next one during the day. Love Ami
(((((((((((SS))))))))))
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I read the 12-step meeting dream as one of taking back your power. Only you can choose to speak - and when - and how.
Not letting others determine your own healing path - telling you what to do - helps you find your own way.
It's messy, though... it takes a lot of practice, to do it in a way that doesn't frighten others (your son). But, it's also something you can quickly master, with lots of practice!
Yes: isn't it amazing? Even when years into our recovery, we can still find traces within us of the damage that was done, by our parents...
SS, I really think you're progressing at the speed of light these days! Sometimes, I know I don't see my own progress until someone tells me - then I can reflect & feel - oh yeah, that's a lot different now... remember to take the time to smell the "freedom", sweetie - it makes all the hard work, worth it!
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I really thank you for your comments. I have been slow to respond because I have been very, very down since this "experinece" with my mother. I come on-line are read a few - very few posts and then have to shrink back into my cave.
I especially appreciate the thoughts about my dream and the encouragement about where I am. It helps so much. It is so amazing what a difference it makes to actually get encouragement for what I am going through. I can't help but imagine what life would have been like if I had lived with a family that actually encouraged rather than put down and belittled - subtly, very, very subtly and then denied that they put down. Just like in the dream where if I got angry then I would be shunned but if I didn't then I would be belittled. Those were the only choices I saw in life, I never saw the one where I could "rise above" and simply know that these people were not ones to value my gifts and therefore I needed to move on to those who would. I always assumed that NOONE would value me. That's the damage that I sustained.
I want to write about moving beyond this stuff, digging deep and re-membering my shaming experiences that are soooooo painful and getting beneath them and finding the real me.
This issue about taking everything personally is closely tied with a powerful battle I have against expecting the worst, and expecting rejection. All of this is powerfully negative mental processing that has control over my life and derives directly from the lies that are my parents and were told me overtly and covertly about who I am. Until now I simply accepted these lies - oh I cried about them and mourned them and ranted about them rejecting them or wanting to reject them but unfortunately not really - really I took them on and have lived them out.
But this is the turning point in my life - at long, long last. Finally I am at a place where I am finally rejecting the lies that are so deep within that even though I have railed against them I have taken them in. Now I will root them out. I think this "thing" about my mother will be a catharsis and has taken me deep down inside to the great, indescribable pain that I have lived with life long but have tried (unsiccessfully) to suppress. It has been like standing on a refuse pile and pretending that the refuse is not there. That hasn't worked. That refuse was all lies and is nightmarish horrors about who I am and am not. Those lies, that pile of refuse has NOTHING to do with ME. It has only to do with the shame and self-hatred that my parents felt about themselves and projected onto me. I took it. They did not but I did. But just because I did does not mean that I must continue to - Just the opposite - now I can dig up the refuse and stand on solid ground - a much different ground.
I think I will start another thread about expecting the worst and how it has manifested in my life. This is my fervent battle beginning today. In the two years since I have been here I have had several battles and each one was successful and that gives me extraordinary hope for tomorrow. So today I begin to overcome and destroy the lies that have come from my parents and which I took on. No more.
PS - I feel guilty and self-critical for not responding personally to each post here. I ask simply that you forgive me and understand that I am listening and appreciative. I am not able to respond to each one personally for reasons that I don't fully understand myself but it is something about an emotional response that is very strong and for which words feel inadequate to convey.
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((((((AWWWWW SHAME SLAYER))))))))))))))
I think in your dream that you are the car that is running out of gas. Your depression is the result. Giving mom the boot is very difficult. I am no contact with my mother now and have been for about two years. I just cant stand the pain and the confusion and mixed messages and I end up being the bad girl psycho to her. She is clueless and takes no responsibility for her behaviour. Even if she did take responisibility, she just cant see what is going on. Her lack of insight staggers me. But it is just too painful. It is not a brain injury on her part but some sort of dissociative state. Whatever it is, she ends up making me feels horrible. If that is mother love, I cant stand it. Does not feel like love to me.
I havent spoken about it because it is too hard. It is a powerful convention in every society to love your mother. Trying to grasp that mom can't love back in a healthy way is not even described in literature very much. It is about narcissism and envy and unconscious rage. I see parents who are poisoning their children in insidious ways quite often. There is no talking to them. I just try to make a good connection with the child and model respect and caring. I pray that these kids can get out of the spider web of their dissordered parents as quick as possible. Just go. Dont stop to water the plants or prepare or organize or soften the blow. Just get the hell out of there.
At the bottom of this situation that you face is a lack of trust in your own instincts. And no wonder. They were undermined, minimized , repudiated and scorned so often. From your posts I would say that you have very good intuition. Liars are impossible. The person lied to ends up with huge, frustated, stifled, exploding, oozing rage.
Somewhere somebody said that honesty is the lynchpin of character. So true. I live and breathe by it and I have to be away from it
Thank you so much for sharing your story. It really helps me to remember that although my mother has good qualities and can be so sweet and loving at times, she has been so unpredictable and disloyal that it has just horrified me at times. I cant do it and live. That might sound like exageration but it is not. Sadly, she was so busy pitting her children against each other and setting them up to compete for her attention, that there is not much left of the family at all. What a legacy. How sad.
Do whatever you need to do Shame Slayer. Write all you want and can.
Much love,
Sea storm
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Thank you so much for sharing your story. It really helps me to remember that although my mother has good qualities and can be so sweet and loving at times, she has been so unpredictable and disloyal that it has just horrified me at times. I cant do it and live. That might sound like exageration but it is not. Sadly, she was so busy pitting her children against each other and setting them up to compete for her attention, that there is not much left of the family at all. What a legacy. How sad.
I really get this. It is so hard - even here - to write about and make sense of a mother who "claims" to love but who has no concept of what love is. She still doesn't get that you can't lie to and about someone day in and day out and still love them. There is actually no relationship when everything is a lie.
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Very good work you're doing - you're sounding very strong & fearless!
I think you might be able welcome all the pain now - and WERE able to take on the overwhelming pile of refuse - because you have the capacity to love - deeply. You CARE. (they can't/couldn't)
And this will help you see that the pile isn't nearly as large as your capacity to love - yourself, your son - and yes, even your pathetic parents... this caring will make short work of whatever is left in that pile.
that caring will get you to the other side where perspective changes and things can be let go... permanently.
Thinking of you, my friend. I know you'll finish this soon.
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My mother and I are now communicating via e-mail. (We have never done this before but my brother suggested that I do this so that she cannot twist my words around anymore.) She e-mailed asking my son to spend the night tomorrow night. I replied and BCCed my brother (part of his suggestion is that I copy him on all correspondence to and about her).
She called him and told him that she had invited my son but that I had not replied. He was able to tell her that that was not true because he had received my reply as well. She went on to tell him that I had not returned her phone calls -
Anyway. He has communicated to her that she needs to see someone to help understand why she lies so much to me. I told him that I don't even need her so much to STOP lieing as I need her to admit that she is lieing when I confront her. She apparently has finally admitted it to him.
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Dear SS
You are facing the truth about your M's type of "love".I am having to revise the concept of love. It hurts so,so much. I am so sorry you have to go through this type of pain. It hurts so badly,like childbirth. I am here,SS, and going through the same thing. Love Ami
(((((((((SS)))))))
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My mother invited me to her home for a church gathering tomorrow night. Normally it would be something that I would do. But I have thought about it and decided not to go. I have not been with her or visited withher since she decieved my brother and me about her psychiatrist's appointment. She and I have been through this 3 times now. This is the third time since my husband died that I got fed up with her lies and said I would not have a relationship with her unless she got help. She understood that to mean that she could go see someone without me and that would be OK. I gave in the first 2 times - not this one. This time she knew that my brother and I intended to go and she made sure we would not find out when the appointment was. She - by nature of past experience - thought this would pass. It has in the past. I have been clear this time that it would not. - No problem - she is persistent. This is what I just e-mailed her. She calls me and I e-mail her and BCC my brother - his idea. Now she can no longer get away with saying that I have said something other than what I said. She has already tried it with my brother and he corrected her and when she persisted he told her that he was looking at the e-mail I sent. I know it is typical N behavior but that doesn't make it any better.
Dear Mother,
Thank you for inviting me for the Home Eucharist at your house tomorrow night. I have thought about it and decided not to come.
I believe that until we have actually seen a professional together or as a family that if I decide to participate in your life you will simply decide not to follow through.
In the past, when I have confronted you about lying, you have done the exact same thing and then just waited for time to pass. By coming to the eucharist at your home on Wednesday it would be just doing the same thing that we have done in the past and nothing gets done about the problem. In fact you have not yet even acknowledged a problem. That would be a start.
Thank you.
Here's what I sent last Thursday and have received absolutely NO acknowledgment:
i want to let you know that I truly hope that you will
be willing to see someone about our relationship. I miss you but I must tell you
that whatever the dynamic is that causes you to view me as your enemy has caused
a real rift between us.
I know that you claim to love me but it really is impossible to truly love
someone you view as your enemy. The very need you have to lie to me so often
destroys any trust and any ability to have open and honest communication which
love depends on, real love anyway.
It would be a tremendous start if you could begin by acknowledging that you have
lied to me, if you could be specific. That would help tremendously. Just pick
one - any one. I truly hope you can. Love,
I would love to have some feedback. What do you think?
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Dear SS
This is my honest feeling. I think the e mail was fine ,direct and well stated. However, I think that you may have hope for HER to change(or it sounds that way) and I am afraid that she will not. I could be wrong. With my M, she SEEMS to change and own things, but it is not real. It is a mouse getting out of a trap. Later, she does the exact same thing b/c she has not changed b/c of internal convictions,but b/c she was trapped and is trying to extricate herself from the trap, only.
That is my 2 cents. Love Ami
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SS....You have read my letter to Alice Miller and her reply, maybe the same thing is going on here with your mother and you want her to "understand" you. IMO this is a futile effort, as she will probably never understand. I am giving up more and more this approach to people and if they don't understand I don't struggle anymore with them, I move on to people who do. In many ways I have given up on my parents for good. They never will care to know me, mostly just use me to abuse or use me for their own needs. I am facing the type people they are and refuse to be around it anymore. It's painful at first but I feel so much better knowing that I accept what I feel and find others who do understand me. As Miller said it becomes a lifelong and never ending struggle with your parents, to make them finally understand you and it won't work....James
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Dear James and Adele
I JUST got clarity on this issue, as I was soaking in the bathtub(lol). I see how I wanted people to see me, really see me, as my M never did. I have been replaying the drama of trying to be seen for my entire life.
I can see HER,clearly, now and she can't see me b/c she cannot see outside of herself. It stinks,but it is better than lying.I guess the best we can hope for is honesty and it will provide a way to live an authentic life. Love, Ami
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Thank you both for your posts.
I am not sure if I am trying to get her to change and/or to understand me or not or if I am just unconscious or in denial but what I think I am doing is to get affirmation from a third party about my mother. I "know" she will never change. I "believe" I have accepted that she will NEVER understand me. But because I know these things I could certainly be in denial.
The big thing is to find a way I can tolerate any kind of a relationship. I do want to do that and I want to find a way to make it possible - I'm just trying to figure out how. The lying is a HUGE problem. The other issues I can tolerate - the lying I cannot.
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Dear SS
Just follow the path of truth and you will find the way. Truth, in anything, is not easy to accept especially when you have had to have as many distortions as we .However, even though truth may bring pain, under it is relief.
I am with you,on your journey, SS, by your side. Love Ami
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My mother sent me another e-mail and said she was seeing a therapist and that after a few times she would let me know and we could go together. I thought about it and was dismayed and sent a lengthy reply which ended with these paragraphs:
I have spent a lifetime of being set up by you and being pulled into alternate
roles of caretaker and whipping post. I have no doubt that you can convince
your therapist of your version. As a couselor, it is his responsibility to be
sympathetic to you. There is nothing to be gained for me to go with you after
you have firmly planted yourself as a victim of your unsympathetic,
misunderstanding daughter. There is just no point in that - for either of us.
My problem is that I don't trust you and as I emailed you a couple of weeks ago
it would help if you would start by admitting that you have lied and being
specific. But time is passing and I know that your next ploy is to let the
passage of time lessen the impact of past offenses.
I just got a call back from her saying she had sent me an e-mail (which I never received but which is possible if not plausible) in which she admitted that she had lied to me. She went on to say that she had told the therapist that she lies to me about all kinds of things and that she doesn't know why. She said she knew it was damaging and yet she couldn't controll it. She apologized and asked if I would come to see the therapist.
It was such an incredible surprise, not a jolt but a shift, a huge shift. She is not a different person but I am. I had expected to never hear those words and in ways unclear I had made a peace with that. This was just a gift - one I never thought I would receive. Something in my world is shifting - it has been a long time in developing and it is still slow but welcomed, very welcomed.
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THAT is mind boggling, SS. I think she knew YOU were serious this time. Bravo to you!!! Love Ami
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SS: Maybe, just maybe, even if she didn't send that e-mail, she's trying to face what made her who she is. That doesn't mean you have to help, or even participate. You've earned the right to look out for yourself first. On the other hand, you know what she HAS been, maybe there's nothing left to lose, and a lot to gain, by trying.
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THAT is mind boggling, SS. I think she knew YOU were serious this time.
You know Ami, I never thought about it but that is part of the shift. I have NEVER been taken seriously by anyone in my familiy about anything. I have been so voiceless. It was not easy to get her attention but It makes a difference. It is very, very possible that I could have gotten to the end of life and NEVER had anyone in my familiy respond to a single expressed need. But this time I was heard - now I understand that the outcome really doesn't matter. This is what mattered. She actually took an action because I insisted. And she actually told her therapist that she has been lying to me. I still can't get over that. I actually be lieve her.
gjazz - I'll definitely go. I have said I would and I will. The only reason I am giving her the benefit of the doubt on the e-mail is that a week ago she said she had sent an e-mail from her church and didn't know why it had never come. I didn't believe her and a day later it came through with the time on it that she said she sent it. How did it get lost in cyberspace for a day I don't know but I'll give her the benefit of the doubt on that one. That's big - to believe a liar about that but this time I will.
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Dear SS
It is REALLY sad that no matter how hard we tried to please and take care of them , they never gave us respect or real love. When you get strong, they listen.
I think people from families that guide them learn HOW to take care of situations by being strong.
It was very,very unacceptable for me to be strong and confident.
That brought the worse shame to me.That brought,'"Who do you think you are?".
I really felt shamed by that one. I wanted to dig a hole and go in.
The Board taught me how to defend myself. I never could have stood up to my parents and H without the lessons I learned, here. Love Ami