Voicelessness and Emotional Survival Message Board
Voicelessness and Emotional Survival => Voicelessness and Emotional Survival Message Board => Topic started by: Certain Hope on July 31, 2008, 08:59:59 PM
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Hi,
Been pretty busy and unable to participate here lately, but there's something on which I'd appreciate your comments and views, if you would, please...
My mother is 81 and ailing, now. She and I have not communicated much for the past few years...
although (till recently) she'd continued to enclose a brief note with my dad's weekly mailings, I've not reciprocated.
And now, for the past several weeks, dad has reported that "mother isn't up to writing this week".
He's made several references to her "problem", but I didn't write or call to learn more.
Well, today's mailing contained a note from her, in a sealed envelope (within the larger envelope), addressed to me.
She sent me a copy of her ct scan report and a long list of her "diagnoses"...
none of which appear to be extremely critical (although they sure look impressive on this form she sent).
argh
Well, she's been catheterized (at home) for the past couple weeks, because of an inability to urinate.
One of her problems is genital prolapse.
Also a cyst on the kidney.
The thing is...
she sent me this note, along with a copy of the scan, with the remark:
"I am enclosing (this) which may be of some help to you in the future years concerning any problems you might have. Hope to hear from you soon."
What is that?!??
umm... this is terrible, I'm afraid, but I feel like she's cursing me, in some weird way... and feeling that way makes me ashamed of myself... and I want to shake that feeling so that I can only have compassion for her... and I want to write back and let her know the results of the research I've done on the info she provided (which shows that these are all common problems)...
and another part of me feels so very sorry for her that she apparently couldn't just tell me outright, weeks ago, what was going on (but then I was supposed to call and find out, no doubt)...
so there's the guilt...
and there are just too many feelings swirling around to sort at the moment,
so I'd sure appreciate your input.
Thanks.
Carolyn
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hi Carolyn,
A note from my little corner is that, as an old mother, I have told my daughter about my mother's and my physical history, just for the record, not as a curse, but as family history. I found that so many times I've had to answer questions about "such and such an ailment ever in your family?" and sometimes she has asked about more ordinary things such as end of menopause etc. Anything about my disability is extraneous to this but my mother's was spina bifida (lack of folic acid in expectant mother?) and scoliosis.
As for your mother, the prolapse might appear to be a very uncommon thing that she might think she has passed along the line medically. I would send her a note of thanks as though you didn't know--don't burst her balloon-- and it could be a word of 'sympathy', whatever, from you as well. (depending on what you might want to say....)
Not everyone is aware of catheterization.....other than when in hospital for an operation and not able to get up to pee. It is quite unpleasant, as far as I am concerned, and she might think so too, and not wish it upon you, so for you to beware and to study up on how to avoid it.
That's how I read it, but is your mother N?
Love
Izzy
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Dear, dear Carolyn..
I think the note and scan from your mother are two things:
1) a guilt trip
2) a piece of your family medical history to file and be aware of
I found with NMom that both her love and her raging Nism could coexist in the same gesture.
Drove me BATS so I do understand.
love,
Hops
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((((((Izzy)))))) thank you so much. If you were to tell me anything under the sun, I wouldn't doubt that you were only doing it for the purpose of sharing... with the very best intent.
And I would like very much to think that the line of thought which you've presented is indeed the place my mother's coming from when she wrote that to me.
Actually, it may be true that she's unaware of stuff like prolapses and catheterization...
she's been relatively healthy all of her life and has no friends...
and would never share personal stuff like that with them if she had them...
that'd be beneath her dignity, I think...
at least that's how I read her.
But putting all of that aside - and I think that's probably what I'm supposed to do, since it's a whole lot of presumption on my part - I may very well do what you said here, Iz:
I would send her a note of thanks as though you didn't know--don't burst her balloon-- and it could be a word of 'sympathy', whatever, from you as well. (depending on what you might want to say....)
That helped alot... because I have become quite a balloon-burster, since coming into my voice...
and - at this stage - what's the point?
Maybe it's time for me to just go with the flow on alot more matters... at least on an individual basis...
and in this case, it wouldn't be phoni-ness... only kindness.
maybe.
She's very N'ish, Izzy. I think that this is the very first time in her life when she has not exerted absolute power and control. It must be very difficult for her.
But I don't deceive myself into thinking it's made her any more gentle and meek.
She's not a very nice person.
And I have a lot of past abandonments and neglects to forgive and forget.
Maybe that's the whole point, after all.
Thanks again, Iz.
Love,
Carolyn
P.S. (((((((Hops))))))) thanks. I just saw your post and I know you understand. I don't feel any love in her letter...
not from her to me...
but I do feel my love for her, and that's the rub.
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Hops, Izzy,
Some more...
I also suspect that she didn't write on her own accord, you know? I mean... I think that my dad got tired of saying, week after week, that she wasn't up to writing and so he got after her to drop a few lines to me. So she did her duty, with the added bonus of laying on a guilt trip. That's what I feel from her note - it was a matter of duty, nothing even resembling a genuine concern for my awareness of our family medical history.
I feel that she can't write to me from her heart, because that would be admitting to weakness...
so she did it this way, sending a formal copy of her results, under the guise of my needing the info....
when all I'd like to hear from her is that she is scared about all this and feeling fragile...
instead of my having to read between lines and manufacture feelings for her, to which I might be able to respond in a heartfelt manner of my own.
Well, I am not going to try to analyze how my response might best suit her patterns of denial and stoicism. She can't monitor and control my emotional reactions... that's my job.
And you know what?
Every week, dad sends their Sunday church bulletin, complete with the page of congregational prayer requests.
Her name is not there.
She is so disconnected from humanity that she won't even allow those people who are supposed to be her church family to know that she is in need.
What I see that makes me ashamed is that as much as I can feel for her, one of my top feelings is how much I especially don't want to wind up like that... like she taught me to be... like I have been in the past... isolated and apart and alien.
And I remember that, some years ago, when I thought that I really was dying, I didn't want her near. And she didn't offer to come. All I wanted was my own family... which included, at the time, npd-ex, who could just as well be her son as any woman's...
oh boy.
So now I must choose to acknowledge my feelings, as above, and yet only act on the ones which lead to me showing her kindness and compassion, despite all the negative, hurtful stuff, without storing any of that up...
because I think that's what mature, emotionally responsible adults are to do.
I can do this.
Thanks again, ladies.
Love,
Carolyn
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Hi CArolyn,
Have not been on line lately just popped in this morning. My advice, TRUST YOUR GUT...........I guess my experiene of Ns has made me very cautious but I believe there is always an ulterior motive, my 2 cents.
xxx
axa
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Sounds like my mom-she had breast cancer and did not even accept help from church. Why that might be admitting she is not perfect. When people did find out about it it was.oh it is nothing!
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Axa, thanks... it is good to read you!
Yes, ulterior motives always.... that is a foundational part of the modus operandi.
And yes, I will trust my gut, because I know that I do not feel this way about all people... or even toward many people. I mean, it's not an automatic response of mine... and in this case, I do believe it's justified.
Axa, having slept on this, I'm thinking that I can genuinely extend concern and compassion to her.... as long as I do not jump back onto the hook of expecting her to follow suit. No, I don't expect her to ever "be there" for me in the way that I need; but because I can now depend on myself (to show up for my self), I can also trust myself to remain detached from the consequences of future interactions. Sounds good in theory, anyhow. Seems that the abiity to be honest with myself about my own expectations is one fruit of the lengthy no contact period with her... and that is a blessing. Expecting nothing in return actually makes it easier to release the old bitternesses and step forward. Hugs to you!
Hi Kelly,
Did she try to keep her cancer a secret? All for the sake of keeping up appearances. That is so very sad and lonely!
People must realize that something is up, since my dad's been attending church alone for so many weeks.
It is just so sad to me to recognize that she must really not believe in the power of prayer, or else she'd be eager to have her church family lift her up...
but then, she seems to think that you get blessed with good things by being good and trying really hard...
so maybe, at some level, she thinks this illness is a form of punishment. I don't know.
Kelly, she would not even go on a med. years ago, to address her cholesterol issues. Instead, she did this radical diet change, cutting out just about everything but veggies and certain forms of chicken. So then, the couple times they've been here to visit since, for instance... there was this huge deal about what she couldn't eat.
She doesn't mind a bit having her family revolve around her and cater to her. It's lilke - that is supposed to be our job; but I wouldn't act all impressed with her efforts to do this the ultra hard way (and consequently make everyone around her miserable). I just said that I thought it was dumb not to take the pill and that this crazy diet she'd imposed on herself could not possibly be good, because it was so out of balance. Guess that was some more of my balloon busting... and it sure didn't go over well.
Finally, I just stopped cooking for them altogether and let them figure out that when they got hungry, a restaurant was their best option.
eek... I already had 3 kids and a husband to deal with... and she'd sucked up enough of my life force over the years.
And now my dad is talking about them getting down here to see us before the snow flies...
and although I cannot imagine her being willing to make the trip after all this, she has surprised me before.
All of that to say...
any confidence or assurance I feel in responding to her in writing...
must be able to be transferred to a personal appearance...
and when she's right smack in your face, it is not so easy. She has this way of draining the room of all life and light... just a very powerful force of darkness, even still.
Carolyn
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"I am enclosing (this) which may be of some help to you in the future years concerning any problems you might have. Hope to hear from you soon."
Carolyn - my two cents about this is that she's simply assuming that because she has these issues, of course you may as welll - projective identification, don't you think?
I have to run; will be back - haven't even read all the wonderful advice you've probably already gotton... just saw this line and connected to it.
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Ahhhh, Carolyn:
One could drive herself crazy trying to figure all that out.
You should go ahead and feel compassion, give her a return note expressing just that and not worry with assigning motives, IMO.
Tail chasing endeavor trying to figure out what other people are thinkin.
SOOOPH, remember?
I learned that from you, I think.
Lighter
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Hi Carolyn,
What a dilemma. Dealing with the elderly is always so fraught with abundant issues and challenges -- do we extend compassion to people who have so deeply wounded us? What is the right thing to do? If we do show compassion, how do we do so while protecting ourselves? Plus, the more tangible issues such as declining mental faculties, physical frailties, and more. It is not an easy or clear-cut time.
You have gotten great suggestions from Izzy and Hops; and you are clearly finding your own appropriate boundaries. I think especially with your last post, you are well down the pathway to deciding how to handle it. I can find info about the prolapse for you if you wish; I remember seeing a picture of it once in one of our pubs, and feeling horrified. I had no idea such things could happen to us!!
Giving up expectations of getting anything from my parents was a huge step forward in my life. It really freed me from a lot of their torture and conflict.
I think I've said that my dad and I did not have a great relationship until the last 10 years of his life. It had begun to get better in the previous years, but when my mother died he changed radically. I enjoyed those 10 years very much, got things from him I'd never received, and had many good and meaningful times with him. He could be a real challenge, in that he was needy and highly structured as ever, and elderly -- but he could also be a great joy and companion. I've always treasured the way our relationship changed and grew.
And, I fully believed I'd forgiven him, completely. But lately, this month or so, I've realized that it's more of a generous truce than real forgiveness. With him out of the picture (he died last October) I feel some old anger and resentment rising up again. It feels like anything but forgiveness.
During his last two months or so I was with him nearly constantly; he contracted a urinary tract infection (which is something that you should be on the look-out for in your mom), which is very serious in the elderly, and often can cause death. It certainly contributed to my father's.
He had always been a bright, lucid, sharp man, until he started his decline. When he was in the hospital with the UTI, he started a real mental decline, something called "sundowning." Senior citizens can be relatively normal in the morning and afternoon, but in the late afternoon they start to get the crazies -- real senility. It's the oddest phenomenon.
Thus, I went through this every day with my dad. Just when he seemed to be getting mentally alert and feeling better, the sundowning took over. When I had to put him in a nursing home for post-hospital care -- I had to, he needed the care -- he turned on me, bigtime. He got totally delirious and full of rage, accused me of trying to steal his money and plotting against him; told me things like if I looked deep down into my soul, I'd see that I was wicked and what I was doing was wrong. We'd had quite a tiff in the hospital before that; I forget what it was about, but I remember that I took no crap from him and let him have it in a very honest way. I think it scared the poor people (nurse) to death, or made her very uncomfortable. She may have thought I was an ogre, but my experience had been that the man needed someone to stand up to him; he'd been awful to the speech therapist and I wasn't going to let him off the hook. (I didn't fully realize how bad off he was.)
Well, anyway, my point is that just when you think it would be all warm and cozy and the guy would be giving me some end-of-life caring or advice or something -- boom, he turned on me. Really, really nasty. He said some things that were at least as hurtful as anything he'd ever said, and maybe more. (I swear, he put a curse on me and the pastor.)
Eventually my sister and I took him back to his house, in which he was born, to give him hospice.
I'm so glad we did. With all his past legacy there in the room, and his recent nasty behavior and words, still, I saw this fragile, frightened man. There were times, as he moved toward dying, that he had looks of absolute terror on his face; and others of great anxiety. I still think it was something about meeting his maker, and maybe reviewing his life and the things that he had done. (He was a very good man in the world, but not to me and our home.)
I hoped, because I had always hoped, my life long, that this would be the moment when he would really reach out and say something wise or profound to me -- or even say one small thing, one word of departing love or advice. What I most hoped for was that he would say some word of "I'm sorry" -- for he never apologized for anything in his life, at least to me.
But he didn't. He was completely absorbed in his own process, as I guess the dying must do. He finally seemed to wait for the end of a Yankees game my sister was watching on TV (it went extra innings) and then, although she had checked him not 30 seconds before, he died when she was out of the room.
Despite everything my dad had done to me in my life, and the nastiness of his last weeks, I am so glad we gave him hospice. It is a real, genuine privilege to usher someone out of this life and into the next. Regardless of what your earthly relationship has been, it is deeply meaningful when it is with someone who has been your immediate family member.
I will never forget the compassion I felt for him in the nursing home, even when he was raging against me; or the more subtle, but deeper compassion as he lay on his deathbed. Those feelings were as much a gift to me as they were to him.
The past few weeks, too, I have been going through a particular deep and challenging journey of faith, concerning my pastor and even my church. I am sure there is more to come, but, ironically enough, it is the N pastor himself who is helping me through this dark time. He'd given a sermon on Easter two years ago, which I didn't listen to at the time (I was ignoring him), but which I have on CD. It is without a doubt the most brilliant sermon and piece of theology I have ever heard. He talks about how God calls to us through the darkness of our lives, the confusion of our minds, to find us; how we can never know the meaning of the Resurrection until we have spent significant time in the darkness; how that is the only place that we can ever really meet the risen Christ. After the Resurrection, and after we have met the Risen Christ, life is never the same again. We only know that there is no "normal" anymore; now, we can't even count on the darkness any more.
It is so hard to explain, but he is so right. I loved that sermon when I first heard it on CD; and I listened to it so much on my commute that I can't begin to tell you how many times I've heard it. It always spoke to me; I thought I knew what darkness was. I shared this with the N, how much I loved the sermon and how much it meant to me. (I'm sure THAT was great supply!!!!)
Until this pastor experience, until he betrayed me and his office, I didn't know what darkness is. So many people on message boards (not this one) have told me this man is evil, possessed, of the devil. I cannot accept that. So, I've spent a great deal of time this week learning what my denomination thinks of those.
I learned so much. I found a definition of evil as the lack of creation and the lack of goodness, and that makes sense to me. Ns were never "created" in the way they should have been. So, with that definition perhaps I can accept that he is evil.
I learned that the difficult answers I sought were right there in the catechism of my church. Well thought out, and satisfying. Through that and my Bible study, I learned that God always brings good out of evil for those who love God. I learned that this man certainly has sinned, seriously and constantly; but so have I, just in different ways. Sins of not appreciating all the good that is around me that God created; and others. I found many Biblical references that would allow me to accuse the pastor of being wicked and take comfort that God would judge him and bestow retribution. II could take great satisfaction in that if I wished.
But, except for the first several days, I have never wished retribution on him. I just haven't. And by the grace of God, literally, I forgave him, easily and quickly and without trying, when I thought I never could.
I read again the call of Christ to his disciples, and of the truth he brought to us. I read of the need for compassion. Last night I read Matthew, and the Sermon on the Mount and the beatitudes. The very first thing Christ said was "Blessed are the meek, for they shall inherit the kingdom of God." And the advice that if a man forces you to walk a mile (Christ is specifically talking about "bad" men), walk two. If he demands your cloak, give him your shirt as well.
For all their meanness and power moves and control, I cannot think of anyone more meek than a person who genuinely suffers from NPD; that lack of self underneath, that vast emptiness and darkness and disconnection from God. If anyone asks us to walk a mile with them, it is they, in their darkness and confusion and emptiness. They beg us to take them upon ourselves.
I have been so concerned about his (pastor's) soul; I know his fragility and, with my Bible study, know even more his sin (SO much more than against me); I read in our catechism, essentially, that no matter how depraved we become, if we are true believers there is always hope. And thus I pray for him.
...The very one (pastor) who has so hurt and betrayed me is the one who has also pointed me toward the path of healing; this dark experience is itself a faith journey of large and significant proportions; one that I have been asking God for, for many, many years. It is here; and it is the darkness that is bringing me into new light. A Hebrew definition for Satan is "adversary"; so perhaps the pastor is under the influence; he has been an adversary, but his opposition has forced me to study and to learn and it has brought me closer to God and Christ.
I'm not really sure what the point of my sharing this with you is, except perhaps to say that life and relationships, particularly familial relationships, are intricate and complex. The path is not always clear nor is it always easy. What God gives us, if we ask, is the power to endure the things and experiences that perplex us but the answers for which we cannot know. My very favorite Bible passage is "Trust in the Lord, and lean not unto your own understanding. In all thy ways acknowledge him, and he shall direct thy paths." (Proverbs 3:5-6)
I think the best I can say is, trust both your gut and your heart. You already have all the answers you need, whatever they are; they are living and breathing inside you. And ask the Lord, and the Lord will guide you.
xoxo,
Lily
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Amber, I very much appreciate your two cents!
At the root, could it really be just as simple a matter as projective identification?
Yes, I do think so.
An emotionally mature person might share such info with a sincere interest in the benefit of others, but that has never been the case with my mother - - - who has never, not once, ever indicated any ability to relate to my circumstances, issues, difficulties, struggles, pains, and sorrows. Why? Because good, special folks like her don't have my kind of circumstances, issues, etc. I understand her mentality and can reject that without rejecting her as a person.
What I needed to grasp was my own tumultuous reaction to her words.
It was like she pushed an old panic button...
and you've helped me to see which one.
It was the adolescent "NOOOOOOoooooooooooooo I am not you. I am a unique individual" button.
Simple as that.
Thank you!!!!
Lighter, you're absolutely right. I'd been doing pretty well SOOPHING with others, but her note out of the blue zipped me into another mode... a very ancient, primitive reaction occurred... but just spilling it out here and receiving some calm responses from y'all has helped so much.
Thanks!!
Lily, Thank you for sharing of your experience with your Dad. I'll have to re-read what you've written and contemplate some more... but the basic points are floating through to me. Will just take me some time to absorb it all and make my own form of peace with realities.
I think re: NPD that weak is a fitting adjective... but not meek.
Meekness knows its need...
true N does not.
Just my opinion.
You have really highlited for me the underlying dilemma... of seeing my mother as weak - which is very difficult and painful for my inner little girl, and scary, and threatening.
My greatest fear as a very young child was that something would happen to her and I would disappear.... that I had no existence apart from her.
Knowing her current age and condition, and anticipating what will come... triggers those old terrors. I know that I have the tools to deal with it now...
but I think that I had to talk about it aloud here, so to speak, in order to recognize what was happening within me.
In a weird way, it is almost easier to see her as some sort of power-monger even still...
rather than to accept just how frail she has become.
The woman has become a legend in my mind...
and my own avoidance has allowed that legend to be sustained. Enough of that.
Thanks so much.
Love and hugs,
Carolyn
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Carolyn - glad that helped!
I've got a touchy button too, with my mother and smoking - and so I've decided that NC is in my best interest until I've been off nicotine for a whole month.
I'm not real coherent today - Day 1 of the long-awaited Quit - and the brain is running faster than my fingers can type. I'm needing an outdoor time-out.
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YVW: )
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Oh ((((((((Amber))))))))) you have all of my support and prayers, no matter what.
Never quit quitting.
Love,
Carolyn
P.S. To busy hands and mind in a different way, if you have an opportunity, I recommend a couple silly pc games... like Bejeweled... or... Peggle!
Very best wishes to you!!
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Hello Friend Hope-
This issue is something that I have had experience with- if it is not helpful, please disregard my thoughts!!! I can sincerely say that my doing what I felt was right, showing love and concern for my father in his last illness, helped me to resolve many things and brought me great peace. My father was trying to make me feel guilty, did not murmur loving words of gratitude, and inflicted many hardships and insults upon me in those last months- seemingly without remorse. But I am not tortured by what I should or could have done, and did not do too much that would harm myself in terms of resources and feelings.
You can show love but not let yourself become embroiled in any intrigue or controversy or debasement, by doing what you truly want to that is good and helpful. When you feel yourself slipping into anger or despair or are hurting yourself, back off and take care of yourself... I know that you are a wonderful and admirable lady, Hope- you have been so generous and kind to me. You can do this, treat your mother well and keep your balance.
Love and Peace,
Changing
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Dear Changing,
Thank you. I do understand. My own very strong stubborn streak is what's causing me trouble right now, but I'm fighting it.
Wrote one draft of a letter, very informational, but I could feel my own poor heart attitude. In short, it felt quite "snotty" to me.
Wishing for maturity ain't gonna make it fall into my lap, that's for sure.
Still a work in progress, but hopeful.
Love to you, with appreciation,
Carolyn
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Carolyn,
Coming late to this thread, but I just want to offer you heartfelt wishes in this stage, and I can understand so much of what you
have described. I hesitate to say much because I am still grieving for my mom, and I don't want to mix up what I wanted to have happen with her, with your situation. It does seem like you're on the right track.
One thing I will say, though. It's OK to love her.
cats paw
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Hi Carolyn,
I have missed you...Ah, Carolyn..you are a very loving and compassionate person....no guilt...you did nothing wrong.. because you choose to stay away.. little contact...there is reason for it...and it is not you... so it's ok to have the compassion.. the love...and put it out there for her, if you wish......and it is alright to stay away also....You alright in my book, kid.....
You'll do fine with whatever you do.....
P.S. I know that my mother was not fond of her father... maybe even hated him...... but at the end of his life.. she helped take care of him... out of compassion...not love...compassion....he was a weak broken old man...and scared....and I think that helped her have some closure....
Love
Deb
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Hi Carolyn,
How's it going? How is your letter going?
Just wanted to pop and say -- post Saturday's counseling session -- ignore anything I wrote about the pastor. The dad stuff can stay, though, and that's probably more relevant.
My thoughts are with you,
Lily
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Cats Paw, thank you. I appreciate your comments, especially in light of your own grieving. As much as I'd like to process all of it right now, that is something of which I can only get a glimpse... and from which I feel so very disconnected. Wish I could push away the wedge which seems to be between my heart and all of those feelings, but then again... that wedge seems to be all that lies between reality and a huge list of impossible expectations. Maybe it's there for good reason.
Feels like... in order to love her, I needed to give myself permission to not love her.
Deb, thanks. Wow, I sure wish I felt that much confidence in me. (((((Deb)))))
"it's alright to stay away, also"...
Maybe this whole thing is knotted up at the point where I feel guilt about NOT doing what I know she has wanted all along.
I have not kept in contact with her about my kids' "accomplishments".
I am working on processing forgiveness toward her for only being interested in what might be fodder for some more of her boasting... and yes, I can do that!
Now maybe I just need to forgive myself for not feeling more for her.
Any sense of "love" I have for her seems to be inextricably tangled up with very old fears, perceived needs, and compulsions. It is not really love at all! It's that ancient enmeshment.
No, it is definitely not love. If it were, it'd be inextricably bound with solid boundaries and compassion, not compulsion! I get it. Finally.
And I can see that it'd be very easy, at this stage, to exchange roles with her.
That's what my first draft letter to her was like... it was me in her old shoes, trying to control.
EEEEeeeeek.
Not good.
Now I think that the very best thing I can do is to send a "get well" card and skip any attempt to express more than simple compassion (even if it doesn't feel quite real just yet!!)
That way I can relate to her as one adult toward another and relinquish any other tie which might bind and strangle.
But then what?
I am 1,000 miles removed, geographically, without the resources to travel, etc.
So I was thinking... maybe I can approach the matter of tending to her, like your mother did with her father, Deb, but via letter. Just short notes, inquiring as to her welfare, expressing concern... all the stuff I've not done for years. That is caregiving, I think... long distance and emotionally detached.
I've been unwilling to tackle it till now, but at this point, just seems like the right thing to do.
Guess that's progress.
Sorry this is so babbly. I know it may seem like such simple stuff to many... what's the big deal?
But it's helped alot to think aloud here... and I really do appreciate all of your input and attempts to help.
Sincerely,
Carolyn
P.S. Lily, sorry it's taken me so long to get back here. Busy weekend! I am really slow processing all this, because it's such a jumble to me. Tearing up that first letter, though, and gonna pick up a card this afternoon. That is the best I have for now... and it's a step forward. Also, her birthday is next week, so that'll be another card...
but I'm thinking a letter is not only not necessary... it's dangerous, to me.
What happened at Saturday's counseling session to change your views? I'm interested... and please know that when I express my opinion about something like that, it's only a matter of opinion, indeed... nothing personal... and always subject to change. My own views on many things are changing all the time as I grow up : )
Love,
Carolyn
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You could combine cards...
Wanted to say on this birthday that I hope you'll be feeling much better.
Here's to more birthdays, and happy ones...
Just something very simple, it's good enough. Don't judge the quality of your emotion.
You're sending it out of a bigger place than emotion.
So glad somebody said compassion, not love.
We get so mixed up about what love is.
I love YOU though!
xxoo
Hops
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Hiya Carolyn,
I've been away again and just popped in here and read your thread. This caught my eye:
And I have a lot of past abandonments and neglects to forgive and forget.
Maybe that's the whole point, after all.
Such events cause such a wild and willy range of feelings eh? Abandoned by your mom? (((((((((((So sorry for that Carolyn))))))))) and neglected? (((((((((((((((((same bigger so sorry for that too Carolyn)))))))))))))). Those types of incidents leave scars, I think. Painful, jagged marks that might heal some but maybe not ever be completely covered over. I dunno. Just what I think. So sorry for those hurts and that you had to experience all of that. Not nice.
To forgive? That's your choice. You can choose to forgive or not to forgive (although the idea that forgiving is far better because it helps one to let go......puts it all on a different shelf, I guess, is supposedly best). Still, what would it take to help you forgive .........not the behaviour......but her.....for behaving like that?
To forget? I guess one can decide not to think about it.......
Truly I doubt I will ever forget certain stuff. Maybe you will? It's not really all something one can control entirely eh? Thoughts do just pop into one's head sometimes.
Anyhow.....I just think this stuff needs more acknowledging. She can't be sending you even sweet little weekly notes, never mind guilt stuffed/assumptive/game playing ones......without dredging up some of these old.........experiences. And then...do you feel torn between acknowledging how you really feel and acting how it might be expected......or how it will feel least disturbing?
I think you hit the nail there......about it being a big point (this forgiving/forgetting stuff). If you decide to forgive and do your best to forget.......do you imagine how you might feel differently then? Will her notes be easier to respond to, I wonder?
Alot easier said than done too eh?
Does it help to think that your mother simply cannot mother? Is incapable of mothering properly? Like she has a birth defect.......somehow.....her mothering genes got all messed up or eliminated?
Sometimes, those kinds of thoughts help me. If not you.....please just pitch this post.
Either way.......I hope you won't lose much sleep over her silly note. It is pretty silly, when one seriously considers it.
(((((((another big hug)))))))))
Sela
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Carolyn,
Just got to this posting. My mother does this too. She will tell me what diseases/sicknesses run in the family to warn me, or even worse, to warn me about the kids. I don't know what the heck it is about. Maybe they do it to have some sort of strange bond with us - that if we fear ofr our health together we are somehow connected. I have been puzzling over this one for a long time too.
I guess we are going through the same phases since you said you felt "snotty." That is kind of how I feel now. Maybe we feel that way because they assign us that role. I know my NM has. She thinks I have a "better than you" attitude, but it is just her projections.
I really keep cards and correspondence simple with NM now. I buy a card with cats or a funny line. I avoid any false sentiments, because I don't need any more lies in my life - even white lies, as it were...
I like Sela's thoughts and believe she is right on many of the points.
((((((((((((Carolyn)))))))))))))
What are you feeling now?
Love, Beth
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Feel like I wrote a book here, but this has helped so very much... just thank you all, from the bottom of my heart.
Dear ((((((((Hops)))))))) You have helped me so much... always.
Thank you!
You could combine cards...
Wanted to say on this birthday that I hope you'll be feeling much better.
Here's to more birthdays, and happy ones...
Just something very simple, it's good enough.
Here, you have nailed it.
It's good enough.
I am rarely convinced that anything I do is good enough...
not at the heart level.
That is changing!!
You're sending it out of a bigger place than emotion.
A bigger place... not smaller.
Yes.
Thank you for spelling this out... I get it.
This is from a deeper place... compassion.
I have needed to make sure...
still haven't sent anything.
Now I can - - - from the "right" place. It's the right place because it's where I am, not because it matches someone else's criteria.
So glad somebody said compassion, not love.
We get so mixed up about what love is.
I love YOU though!
Thank you for hearing my heart, Hops.
I've been very mixed up, but the jumbled pieces are settling into place.
I love YOU, too!
((((((((Sela)))))))) thank you.
The scars from neglect and abandonment trouble me most when I consider how the crud my mother taught me (and, even more, the reams of good stuff which she failed to teach me) wound up impacting my own kids.
In many, many, many ways, I feel that I have done far better - by instinct! - at mothering, than she did with me. Still, I have carried parts of her in me which I want purged out. I want to know that those parts are gone.
It seems so silly, really...
but I think that's why her note impacted me so strongly - - -
it was her suggestion that I might end up just like her.
That is a tremendous fear of mine... not related to physical issues, but mental/emotional ones.
That fear is also the source of my own disgust toward her.
I don't want to be like her in any way, shape, form, or fashion.
In fact, I've spent a good portion of my life going out of my way to show that I'm NOT like her.
In effect, by making such a point of it to myself, I've increased her impact on me by doing so.
argh - I so so so soooo want her to be a non-factor in my life... and I know that is, to her, the absolute worst thing for which I could wish.
She hates me for that.
This is my problem.... and it's one I have not been able to forget.
She can't be sending you even sweet little weekly notes, never mind guilt stuffed/assumptive/game playing ones......without dredging up some of these old.........experiences.
Exactly. I was GLAD when her notes stopped. Not glad that she's sick, just glad that she finally cut the crap.
And then...do you feel torn between acknowledging how you really feel and acting how it might be expected.....
Yes!!!! And other than one lengthy letter, last year, I've opted to not respond to her at all, in any way.
Sending that letter (which she ignored) has allowed me to not pile up their weekly envelopes in dread. Now I open them as they arrive... well, mostly. Sometimes I let two pile up, but never a mountain, as before.
.....or how it will feel least disturbing?
I don't know. I don't want anything bad to happen to them, but I don't want to hear from them all the time, either.
It seems so weird to me that they're still acting so bound to me...
they don't do my brother this way.
Why do they continue this, after all this time of my not responding???
Why me????
I think you hit the nail there......about it being a big point (this forgiving/forgetting stuff). If you decide to forgive and do your best to forget.......do you imagine how you might feel differently then? Will her notes be easier to respond to, I wonder?
Alot easier said than done too eh?
I don't know... I'm not there, Sela. Maybe it's a pipe dream. It's definitely alot easier said than done.
I don't want my life tainted by even a drop of this stuff anymore.
It's been enough. So, so, so terribly enough.
Does it help to think that your mother simply cannot mother? Is incapable of mothering properly? Like she has a birth defect.......somehow.....her mothering genes got all messed up or eliminated?
Yes, that actually does help.
Sela, I was praying the other night, silently... and it came out of my mind, first time ever, to ask God to take care of ______ (her first name).
I have never, ever thought of her by her first name, but there it was, straight out of my head.
I can have compassion for her only in that way, as another human being... but not as "mother".
Maybe God was showing me that's okay.
Thanks, Sela.
Love,
Carolyn
Carolyn,
Just got to this posting. My mother does this too. She will tell me what diseases/sicknesses run in the family to warn me, or even worse, to warn me about the kids. I don't know what the heck it is about. Maybe they do it to have some sort of strange bond with us - that if we fear ofr our health together we are somehow connected. I have been puzzling over this one for a long time too.
I guess we are going through the same phases since you said you felt "snotty." That is kind of how I feel now. Maybe we feel that way because they assign us that role. I know my NM has. She thinks I have a "better than you" attitude, but it is just her projections.
I really keep cards and correspondence simple with NM now. I buy a card with cats or a funny line. I avoid any false sentiments, because I don't need any more lies in my life - even white lies, as it were...
I like Sela's thoughts and believe she is right on many of the points.
((((((((((((Carolyn)))))))))))))
What are you feeling now?
Love, Beth
Dear Beth,
I think you make a great point about this strange bond of fear which N mothers try to forge.
Your M is really looking down the line to be warning you about your kids!
Somehow I think that is still more about you, than about them.
I know that my own children are nothing but objects to my mother.
They are potential sources of pride and bragging rights.
Other than that, they are useless to her.
She has not once sent one of them an individual note.
Even their birthday cards, she inserts into that one large weekly envelope mailed by dad.
In my case, Beth... I feel that my mother has washed her hands of my children because she sees them as tainted by the genes of their father.
She despises men.
Already, she has absolutely zero interest in my son. He's the wrong gender.
Last time she even commented on him was a couple years ago... some obscure remark, like: "C_____ is what he is."
What the heck is that?
Yes, I felt snotty while writing a letter to her.
The tone of it, in my heart, was a wish to set her straight.
Even to the point of commenting that I certainly hoped she'd asked her church family there to keep her in prayer... because that is the greatest help of all.
Well, I do actually believe that, but what was in my heart as I wrote it was: "too bad you think you're too good to ask for help!!"
I have avoided the false sentiments in cards, too, Beth. Buying mother's day cards has been the toughest. This past year, the only one I found that was generic enough to not feel like a big lie, was to "Mom". She has never been known as "mom". Ever. I am sure she hated it. It was not a bit mushy or worship-ful.
I felt snotty about that, too, but it was the best I could manage.
Like you said, I don't need any more lies in my life - even white lies, as it were...
Exactly!!!!!
((((((((Beth)))))))) Thank you for asking what I'm feeling now. You are so sweet and thoughtful! I feel stirred up and annoyed, just from considering all these things... but mostly relieved. It is so good to be understood.... despite my rambling, babbling style here. Often, still, I really don't know, off the top of my head, just how I feel, other than "upset". It's wonderful to be asked. Helps me to remember to consider... and gives me permission, to feel, which I still neglect to give myself, at times.
I feel more human than ever, Beth... more human and less robotic, less "other". More "me" and less like her.
And I feel very full. Satisfied. Completed, without having done or achieved anything, outwardly, with regard to my mother.
And just now I realized...
I am still so susceptible to her siren song, that I really must be cautious.
Instead of beating myself up for being so weak, I will picture - like Izzy says - her on the other side of a very sturdy fence. Electrified fence, even. With barbed wire.
That I can deal with.
Thanks so much!!
Love,
Carolyn
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That fear is also the source of my own disgust toward her.
I don't want to be like her in any way, shape, form, or fashion.
In fact, I've spent a good portion of my life going out of my way to show that I'm NOT like her.
In effect, by making such a point of it to myself, I've increased her impact on me by doing so.
argh - I so so so soooo want her to be a non-factor in my life... and I know that is, to her, the absolute worst thing for which I could wish.
She hates me for that.
Carolyn, I think this is a where a lot of the hatred directed at me came from. I tried so hard to not be like her and she knew that was my goal - instinctually, because I did not really know it at the time. Now she thinks that when I am sincere, I am like her - acting - so she has contempt for me. For many years, trying to separate myself - to make myself better than her - was such a goal that it was life-consuming. I am past that now.
I do like what you said about praying using her name - as an individual person, and not NM. I don't know that I do think of her as a person. That might help. What a wise idea!!
I think my mother dislikes my kids in part because they are a part of me. She dislikes children as a whole, but especially anyhting I would produce, as she sees me as "weird" anyways. She still has no idea what I am like, and makes weird digs to see what I am about and if I am doing something "bad."
Have to run, but will be back soon.
Love, Beth
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(((((Carolyn))))
Here's a double-hypothesis:
God invented snot.
It's a temporary survival skill.
Just for daughters of Nbiomothers.
If God made tigers with fangs and claws, what's just a little snot...?
xxoo
Hops
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Hi Carolyn,
I started to post at the beginning of the week and couldn't find the words (or even thoughts) to say what I wanted, but --
After you answered I looked up the biblical meaning of "meek," and you are absolutely. It is not what I thought it meant. It means one who (humbly) does his/her best to follow God's will, essentially. So, you are most definitely right!
The part I was really struggling to articulate was about the N pastor. I was going to say to forget everything I said about forgiving him. I really thought I had, but now I'm not sure. Will take some more time to find out.
Thought I hadn't forgiven my dad after all, also, but my group therapist said it was more that there were probably certain areas that I still hadn't worked out yet.
???? Forgiveness has been a frequent topic here and elsewhere the last two weeks. I think it is a very complex issue with a lot of shadings and subtlties. I think it is much more fluid than we tend to think.
In any case, how are you doing with all this? What did you decide to do or what have you done? Very interested.
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it was her suggestion that I might end up just like her.
That is a tremendous fear of mine... not related to physical issues, but mental/emotional ones.
That fear is also the source of my own disgust toward her.
Oh ((((((((Carolyn)))))))))
Really, you are not anything like her and you won't end up like her. You may have learned some stuff but you are so aware and your heart is in the right place. It would be impossible for you to be like her. Someone would have to cut your heart out and poke your eyes out too.
Maybe if you allow yourself to believe this.....the fear will subside and it won't have any more power over your thoughts/feelings?
repeat after me:
I am not like my mother.
I will never be like my mother.
I am separate and aware and conscientious.
( :mrgreen: hypno-lesson now over)
And then...do you feel torn between acknowledging how you really feel and acting how it might be expected.....
Yes!!!!
So if I told you I had trouble acknowledging how I really feel and acting how it might be expected......which would you tell me is priority?
The old.........silence is golden......might be your best truth. I think you made the right choice not to repsond all of those times. Maybe it is possible to say to yourself: "I feel __________ " and then respond in a general way. You don't want anything bad to happen to them so it's ok to respond in the least hurtful way. If that means not responding at all until you feel more like it.....so be it. No one will die eh?
.....or how it will feel least disturbing?
I don't know. I don't want anything bad to happen to them, but I don't want to hear from them all the time, either.
It seems so weird to me that they're still acting so bound to me...
they don't do my brother this way.
Why do they continue this, after all this time of my not responding???
Why me????
Now this is interesting but I betcha not at all uncommon. Playing favorites? Gee. Am I surprised?
(((((((((((another hurt for you Carolyn)))))))))). So sorry they did/do this.
When I first came to this forum I read a lot of stuff about "N's" and ways to deal with them. I don't remember who said it or even how many said it but one thing that was regularly suggested goes something like this:
N's are like toddlers (emotionally/mentally) so one has to think how one might deal with a toddler and then apply it to them. Maybe this might help a little? Toddlers have no idea about the value of people or empathy for their feelings or much else about others. They are totally into themselves and respond mostly to their own wants and needs. They just don't get that anyone else on earth is as important as them. If they have a favorite toy (eg. your brother).....they "love" it more. But toddlers don't really know how to love eh? They mimmic and play and have very basic responses (because they are developing). N's quit developing emotionally around toddlerhood (I've also read........as a 6 year old). Either way.......what they say and do cannot be viewed or expected as any normal, healthy adult might behave.
Maybe it would help to expect ........less (or in this case.....expect the note sending/acting bound/picking favorites.....to continue)? Because.......they are not fully developed.
I don't like to label anyone an "N" so I'm not saying that about your parents.
I do believe people can certainly be quite N'ish.....and it seems like some of this might apply here.
I can have compassion for her only in that way, as another human being... but not as "mother".
Maybe God was showing me that's okay.
Maybe...........or maybe you're still developing (((((((((Carolyn))))))) as an adult?
(((((maybe she isn't or they aren't))))))
Sela
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Beth, You wrote:
Now she thinks that when I am sincere, I am like her - acting - so she has contempt for me.
This explains alot to me, thanks! Of course, N's always think that others are just like them!
But for some reason, I'd never connected the dots where my mother is concerned.
Actually, it never occurred to me that she gives me much thought at all, since my life does nothing to elevate her status or image.
During the golden stage of early childhood, possibly, I think she treated me the way she wished that she'd been treated... or maybe it's better to say - the way she figures she deserved to be treated...
but, of course, no individual, unique personality is allowed in that picture, and so it couldn't last.
Above all, I wasn't supposed to ever be anyone but her - in a different body.
Although she did a pretty thorough job of injecting me with numerous fears,
she could not quite break my will.
No doubt, to this day, she thinks of me as strong-willed...
and, for the first time I can say - - - I guess she's right about that... and I'm glad!
Finally, it doesn't seem like a totally negative feature of my self.
Lily,
Well... some semi-random thoughts here... I just think it is a mistake to give NPD too much credit. I think it can be really difficult to stop idolizing and idealizing NPD... and I think that's a big part of the reason why forgiveness can be such a long and protracted process.
For me, there was a lot of my own pride rolled up in it all, because I'd identified so closely with these people and become so deeply enmeshed.
Whether it's my mother or an ex, my own identity got lost in their shuffle... and what I've discovered is that the knots were tied
at my own prideful places! In other words, those spots where I enjoyed some aspect of their personality which inflated me.
Un-weaving the threads of "me" from "the threads of "them" has felt like quite the process of unraveling... but what I keep square before me now is the knowledge that I must be willing to take full responsibility for re-weaving my own threads into my own unique pattern. That is a challenge I was never willing to accept... until now.
This was all much easier with NPD-ex than it has been with my mother... but it's happening.
And you're right about forgiveness being a fluid process, I think.
I'm doing alright with it... thank you for asking : )
Decided to just send her two cards - one "get well" and one generic "birthday for her" - with no letter or commentary.
By the way, Hops suggestion that I could just combine cards was such a gift...
I could feel as I stood before the card rack at the store - - - that I had permission to just get one, and so I could feel an extra measure of love and compassion in sending two separate greetings. It's difficult to describe, but it simply felt right!
Since then, she has been in my thoughts at prayer-times only... and when she comes to mind, it's by name (not as "M").... and that, I believe, is a "God-thing".
It's like... inspired detachment.
I've had enough occasion (SOooo very many occasions) to say - "I can't handle this" - and then just to watch what the Lord Jesus does - what the Holy Spirit accomplishes on my behalf - that I should not be surprised at this...
yet I am astounded.
HE really cuts to the chase. All I had to do was admit that I couldn't deal.
This, to me, has been another object lesson in the true promise that God's strength is made perfect in my weakness.
So now... I have no multiple-phase plan or steps in place to deal with the future developments.
Yet my blood pressure is normal. Two weeks without Rx and it's just fine.
Why? It makes no sense...
Except that...
The crushing burden of needing that woman to hear my heart is lifted.
It's not my heart she needs, at all... it's God's... and that is between Him and her.
amen.
Love,
Carolyn
P.S. (((((Sela)))) be back again to respond... thank you! oxooxo
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(((((((Sela))))))) I am sorry it’s taken me so long to get back. Our summer break here has ended and so it’s another major adjustment phase around here, but all is well.
I hope you’re enjoying your days! Is mom-in-law moved into her own place now?
Here are some rambled thoughts I’ve been able to piece together over the past couple days, in between power outages and other miscellaneous frustrations… lol.
repeat after me:
I am not like my mother.
I will never be like my mother.
I am separate and aware and conscientious.
Yes'm. lol
"So if I told you I had trouble acknowledging how I really feel and acting how it might be expected......which would you tell me is priority?"
Well, I’d say that honoring the truth is always the priority... combined with, whenever and however possible, causing no undue hurt or harm. I mean... some things are better left unsaid and I don't "need" to be honest about every little thing, if doing so would hurt others beyond measure.
"The old.........silence is golden......might be your best truth. I think you made the right choice not to repsond all of those times. Maybe it is possible to say to yourself: "I feel __________ " and then respond in a general way. You don't want anything bad to happen to them so it's ok to respond in the least hurtful way. If that means not responding at all until you feel more like it.....so be it. No one will die eh?"
Yeah... well, some one might die, but not because of my response or lack of it, you know?
That's the truth I want to absorb completely... now, and not save it for later.
Yes, and I can recognize my feelings to myself and let it stop there, simply responding generally.
I can do that because I do not need their acknowledgement or understanding. That's not a necessity in my life. More important is that I know and understand myself, in order to relate in healthier ways (or to choose not to relate) with them and with anyone else!
Talking this through here has helped me so much. I really do not want to be treated like a "favorite". It's... objectifying and manipulative and I am NOT wrong to refuse to respond to that nonsense.
My one and only brother plays games, too. After years of without contact, he will tell one of my grown children that he'd like to hear from me...
so what? Now the ball is in my court? I choose not to swing.
He treats everyone like they're his hired hand... and I don't want to be one of that number.
Sela, thank you so much for the reminder about toddlers... and 6 year-olds.
This helps everything else to fall into place and fits perfectly with my new "vision" of these people as separate individuals... and not as "my" - gulp at the prospect - "family"... as in... personal mission or project or responsibility or impossible-to-escape-torture-chamber.
Now I can see that I'm the one who's kept them "bound" to me, within my own thoughts, by considering this an inescapable trap.
The moment I choose to let them "go"... and I do... then I'm no longer bound, regardless of what they do or do not do.
I never wanted to be the broken link in some designated chain... and I so blamed myself that it seemed to help, when I began to view them as the broken ones. But then I felt guilty about opting out of the chain altogether. Now I see that it's okay to leave them to that chain they love so much. In fact, it's not only okay... it's absolutely necessary and not my concern. And so - yes, I think it would help - and it's perfectly reasonable - to expect their notes and such to continue, because they are what they are. Settling on that as fact does not reflect on me a bit or make me a failure. duh.
I get it.
Yes, I'm still developing as an adult. Thank God! He is not done with me yet.
Whether she or they are or aren't... is His business and His problem, not mine.
Like the saying goes... "We already have a God. Quit applying for the position!"
I will mind my own beeswax and continue about the work of growing myself up.
Thank you so much, dear Sela, for all of your time and thought-sharing.
I truly feel heard… and valued : )
Big hugs,
Carolyn
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Oh dear Carolyn,
Not to worry about how long it takes getting back to me or not at all even. Life comes first!! Time is not available, sometimes. So not to worry and thankyou for taking the time to get back to me this time but please don't feel obligated. I do very much appreciate the time it takes and you for bothering.
You sound very level headed and peaceful and healthy. Good for you for thinking this through and for having the courage to talk about your feelings. And thankyou for asking about mil..........she is almost there. Gets her new place in a couple of weeks!! She's starting to really look forward to it!
One last one:
Now I can see that I'm the one who's kept them "bound" to me, within my own thoughts, by considering this an inescapable trap.
(((((((Carolyn)))))))). These people are still your family and you are still a child of that family (regardless of being an adult now). It is normal and natural and very tough to give up the idea of being wanted.........understood .......accepted and ........loved by them. It's not your fault for wanting what normal families have (and I'm assuming you would want that, just like most children would, I bet). (((((((((((((It's another loss........another hurt, Carolyn)))))))))). So sorry for that loss and hurt.
It takes courage and determination and time to let go of wanting all of the stuff that seems "normal" and to mourn the immense loss of it all. One has to completely give up the idea of ever being wanted, understood, accepted and loved by one's own blood. It's very sad. :( :(
Not easy or fun. :( :(
I think you have a very healthy attitude and a loving one too. I just don't think you should blame yourself here. I doubt you control the binding or lack of it, even in your own head. More likely, you interpret what you see and feel in a way that makes sense to you and that is all anyone can do. When normal, healthy behaviour is missing.........it doesn't feel right eh? It's very confusing and sometimes easy for one to take on responsibility and feel guilt that doesn't belong to us. After all, toddlers/6 year olds can't handle responsibility and try very hard to unload it all on others. And adult toddlers do the same thing, sometimes, without us even noticing.
I'm sure God will keep helping you to grow and heal from the hurts you have endured/are enduring. You are an inspiration, Carolyn! Really you are!
Wishing you many much happier days ahead!! No worries if you don't get time or don't feel like posting back. Take care of you ((((((((Carolyn)))))))).
Sela