Voicelessness and Emotional Survival Message Board
Voicelessness and Emotional Survival => Voicelessness and Emotional Survival Message Board => Topic started by: gratitude28 on August 05, 2008, 01:37:13 PM
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I have a greater event to confess... And this one I feel very ashamed about. I hope that what I did, especially, did not affect my father.
My sister got married 5 years ago. I went to her wedding. It was a full-on nightmare and I was the anooying person who was basically excluded from everything although I HAD to be there to keep up appearances. I am not proud of my whole behavior during the period. My sister and her husband had been dating for years. He made no move to propose. She found out he had cheated. Then he proposed, but mostly because my NM started pushing the issue. I know it wasn't my spouse, but I really hoped my sister would not marry him. Parents and sister planned a huge wedding and bought me a dress I did not want to wear. NM enjoyed fighting with as many people as possible over any detail. I started drinking again and gained weight so that I could not even wear the dress. My sister hardly talked to me at the time, but asked me to be the matron-of-honor. Finally, I backed out of that and said I would go to the wedding, but not play a role. My sister asked me to read a passage, which, of course, was picked out by them.
So I went. I helped my sister with her preparations and gave her gifts I had bought for the bridesmaids in Italy. And I drank the whole two days of the pre-wedding and wedding. My aunt was there and we were close up through my teen years. We drank together and I told her how ignored I was and how nasty my NM was. I also told her that NM biched about everyone, including her. She was surprised, buit believed me and sees it now. I feel bad, because I should not have tried to make someone else see what they did not need to see. I am also afraid that she thinks less of my dad (her brother) because of my disclosures. We talked all night and she told me thongs about her life and I gave her an earful of all the things I went through. This was before I knew about Narcissism, so it was from a confused, unclear, angry place.
But this weekend when I saw them, I could tell there were leftovers from that talk. My aunt called us to meet up as soon as she got there, but did not call mom and dad. Granted, she did say they hardly ever talk to her. My dad is always happy to see people, but he does have some role in where they stand, because he buys into NM's nasty portrayals of people. I feel bad for him on one hand because he wants to love his family, but his low self-esteem and association with the nasty, ugly putting down of them makes him at odds with them.
I don't know, I just feel now that this is my deal and that I should not try to make others see it. I tried once with my sister, but I do believe that one shouldn't try to triangulate people, no matter what the hurt. It is as wrong as what they did to me.
Thanks if you made it through this long post.
Love, Beth
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Beth, you're a different person now a days--who you were before was hurting. One thing--I have done, recently, similar things to what you're describing here. But I still can't get people "on my side". They don't want to see and I can't make them see. Or even empathize with me! Let alone distance themselves from the person I don't like.
So, perhaps your aunt and uncle would have seen these things on their own. If they believed you and took it to heart, were teachable, then they kind of figured it out for themselves on some level.
I think I understand that you don't want to try that anymore, though. I get kind of sick of myself when I try to make people see what I see. It is only recently that I been ABLE to control myself about it, though. And just keep my mouth shut. It is really hard! But that gross feeling kind of stops me now. And I feel less triggerable with the Cymbalta, so maybe that is helping too.
It really is a messy thing to deal with, though.
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Juno,
Yes, I do it to a small degree still in that my best friend knows about NM. She has no connection to her, though, so I have not clouded her image. There was a time when I wanted everyone to know. In a way I still do. But to have NM be exposed would be like the Emperor in New Clothes, and would leave a sad, lonely woman standing alone. Does she deserve that? Probably. Sometimes, though, I can't help but pity that small child in her, at the same time that I am disugsted with it and her. I guess I can't be like her (vindictive) or I am afraid I will become her. I was like that for many years as a young adult, and it is not a nice way to live.
I am also so happy to hear you on a medium plane again, Juno. Are you feeling better all around? How is the therapy working? I was so worried about you when you were at your darkest. I am so glad you took charge and came back.
I am sending you humongous hugs and big thanks.
Love, Beth
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Hi Beth,
Hugs to you. I think it is good that you're writing about your feelings. Let it all out in a safe place.
I did a similar thing twelve years ago, that is, I opened up to a person on impulse and regretted it later.
Is my sense right that you would like to tie up loose ends regarding that specific conversation with your aunt and clear the air so that she and your dad can resume their relationship without that old conversation coloring the way they relate? I think there are ways to do that if that is your main concern.
tt
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How do you think I could, tt? I did make sure that she knew dad was really excited to see her when he found out she was at the hotel. I told her that he and I went to find her as soon as we could.
What else could I do?
Yes, tt, I feel this is a safe place and that I need to be honest with myself and others. I had one of those gut-wrenching moments where I felt like just an awful person this weekend. Maybe I am reading it into the situation. I do tend to take on a lot of emotions that don't even exist.
I tried not to say anything to add to what I had done, but my aunt brought up that my dad had been in the hospital with pneumonia, and I retorted, "Can you believe my mom never even called to tell me?" So I added to the fire... It popped right out of my mouth...
Love, Beth
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Hi Beth,
I have to be out of the house for a couple of hours. I'll be working. I do have an idea. I'm going to think about it and will write later. I hope my PC doesn't go down again in the meantime.
tt
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Hi Gratitude-
You want peace and are willing to do what you can to promote it in your family. Sometimes, as when you found out about your father's serious illness and hospitalization, you react emotionally and speak quickly from the hip, instead of diplomatically ...
You cannot totally save your family from strife and imperfections by ignoring your feelings or what is happening to you, especially when others are not always being fair and are not treating you justly and with respect. It is not your job!!! It can be a good thing to keep your own counsel, etc but you deserve to protect yourself and treat yourself well. Please don't beat yourself up for expressing pain or dismay or whatever you feel - you are not bad for seeing and feeling things in your reality that are hurtful. You are important and your being a good person is not measured in how well you conform with the demands of others.
You need to tell yourself how proud you are that you have handled so many difficult relationships and demands and are still standing... Do what you can, but don't take the burden of every situation upon yourself. Here's a big hug from me!!!(((((((GRATITUDE)))))))!!!
Do what you can, and for the rest, bless and release-give yourself blessings and release as well!!!
Love and Peace,
Changing
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Beth-i an with you but lake Juno I am on cymbalta so I feel nothing which I am not sure is all that cool. I tried and tried to discredit my mom over the years and all it gets me is a label as a jealous histrionic unstable person. I have decided that I am me and she is she and that is that!
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[ye old Stuffe-Words-in-Mouthe Hoppes returneth...]
Dear Aunt,
Looking back to 5 years ago, I feel really badly about venting so much about my painful feelings about my mother. I think that was not fair to you, and if I knew then what I've learned since, I might have not have said so much.
The other side is that I want to thank you for being someone I felt safe enough with to show some of my most painful feelings. I love you and appreciate you for that.
And I know how much my Dad loves you too.
I hope nothing I've said would harm your affection for him...that would be the last thing I'd want, since I love my Dad.
That's it...thanks much for reading this.
With love,
Beth
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[Ye must feel freeeeee to composttee...] xxoo, H.
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Hi Beth,
I think Hops captured the essence of a way you can clear the air with your aunt. Take Hops outline and personalize it to fit the way you communicate. I'd probably take it a little further and actually ask for forgiveness, but that is a personal choice for you to make.
I'm big on making covenants with myself. So I might have a meeting with 'self' and have a little pep talk forbiding 'going there' even when opportunities like the one you mention here presents next time. I tried not to say anything to add to what I had done, but my aunt brought up that my dad had been in the hospital with pneumonia, and I retorted, "Can you believe my mom never even called to tell me?" So I added to the fire... It popped right out of my mouth...
My best to you,
tt
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Beth,
Not seeing the problem in anything you did myself.
You told the truth about someone who was harming an innocent bystander behind her back. What is to feel guilty about in that?
The harm was being done to your aunt whether you told her or not. Now that she knows she can take appropriate steps.
If I were in her position I would feel grateful to you for letting me know the truth. If there is estrangement between them it is the fault of the person demeaning another not the messenger. Estrangement based on the facts, I believe, is preferable to phony chumminess based on a lie. Your mother was playing her for a sap. Now she can't because you told the truth.
I understand your feelings, but would give you kudos not blame. Just my perspective.
mud
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Hi Beth,
The way it sounds to me you are wrestling with a matter of conscience and the issue of what to do when your conscience condemns you. My sense is that the conversation with your aunt five years ago has inadvertently caused you to assess your personal standards and question whether you lived up to what you expected of yourself. So far, you've gotten two different opinions. One - talk with your aunt, apologize, clear the air, and carry on. Two - excuse your feelings and carry on. You are your own moral judge. Sometimes, it's hard, isn't it?
tt
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Good perspective tt, as usual.
My concern is our feelings are often very unreliable.
Sometimes a thorough examination of our feelings reveals that what we feel isn't justified by the facts.
Beth it seems to me is holding herself responsible for her father's choices. I hope she has thouroughly examined and evaluated these feelings before she does anything. Maybe she already has; if so then she should follow her conscience and ignore me.
mud
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Hey Beth,
Speaking being a Mom with a 23 year old and a sister who has a 22 year old daughter (which her and my daughter are very close like sister themselves) sometimes there is conflict between Mothers and daughters (they bitch to each other about us) and YES they do bring us into it...(my sister and myself) and then there is conflict between us all..AND..one thing WE made clear....to our children..is....TO not ever under estimate that we Will not have confrontation..on what they are telling us about each other... for we are Sister's.......
There is nothing or anyone that could ever make me or my sister have distance...only we could do that...no one else...No one else has that power.. not even our children.
It is a two way street for this to be resolved Beth and that comes from your aunt and your father....this is not your fault..and I bet your aunt would tell you that to....Like I said before...people know...they just don't say anything...they might not know what N is but they know..like I knew about my friend...self absorbed... stab your back as soon as you turn, they smile in your face, then they talk about you... and this I bet your aunt always knew.. deep inside.
Granted, she did say they hardly ever talk to her.
There is your validation Beth..she knows.. maybe not what an N is but she knows something is not right...Do you think? I really don't think you put a wedge between your parents and your aunt.. they did that of thier own choice.... not yours.... you just bitched, like my own kids do...... No guilt....for thier choices....
Love
Deb
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Dear Beth
I wanted to talk about your fear of being like your M, My biggest fear and revulsion was that I was like she.
Yesterday,I asked my Aunt that question.My Aunt said I was not anything like she.However, I know that horrible panic and disgust that we COULD be b/c we are the D's. Ami
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Hi mud (((((((((((((((((((())))))))))))))))))))))))
First of all, I am sooooo glad to see you here. It's been a while!! I read your response last night, but it derailed me from what I had been thinking and I really needed some time to reevaluate everything and put a finger on what I felt was wrong and not so wrong in the situation.
Here are my main thoughts after going over it last night...
tt, there is no excuse for things that "pop" out of my mouth. On some level, I wanted them to. Or I could have kept my mouth shut. So I did that on purpose.
I think at the wedding five years ago I was a different person, not that it excuses my behavior in any way. I needed an outlet and some validation because I didn't know what was going on. I was also irritated with hearing my NM bitch about my dad's family for my whole life and felt it was unfair. My parents complained about my grandparents in front of us, told us things we shouldn't know and ruined a child's chance to have a normal grnadparent relationship. My dad was angry with his parents, but never evolved to appreciate them in any way. When I ask him about them now, he sounds whistful. My NM loved picking apart his parents, siblings, and their children. He loves this sister, maybe even as a child, since she was 17 years younger than him.
Hops and TT, I love your ideas of talking to my aunt.
So... here is what I think now:
I don't think I do feel bad about talking about my NM. I DO feel bad about that impacting my dad. I am going to write to my aunt and tell her how wonderful it was to see her again and how much we enjoyed spending time with her and her family. I am going to tell her that we went looking for her as soon as she called and dad couldn't wait to see her.
I can't change the way my dad is. He does not communicate with people much. He loves deeply, but is almost like a boy in a shell. I think that he feels that mom keeps up the social end of their relationship. I think he knows that she is not normal (he has commented to both my sister and myself that he believes that NM's homelife was abusive). I don't think he wants to come out of denial. He hides with his hobbies and happily goes to see the family thinking all is fine. So... is he to blame? Partly. But I guess I can absolve him because of his love for other people.
So that is where my confused mind is now.
I am glad I was able to admit to doing this, because I am desperately trying to be honest with myself. I am grateful that you all could help me find a direction. I still may say to my aunt that I am sorry for complaining about NM, that the problem is mine, not something I needed to share. And, yes, I do feel as if she were almost like a sister, so I was confiding in someone I trust, not in a random relative.
Again, thank you all very much.
Love, Beth
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((((((((((((((Ami, Kelly)))))))))))))))
Thank you.
Deb,
Since things were so screwy, I have no idea what is normal mother/daughter stuff and what is from the disorder. It's funny, my father uses the belief that our conflict is from mother/daughter stuff to explain our problems.... And, yes, I think my aunt did have an idea on some level.
Thanks (((((((((((((((((((Deb)))))))))))))))))))))
((((((((((((((((Changing))))))))))))))))
Thank you so much. Since I have been overseas for so long, my information about family matters has been impacted. My NM used this control of information to create an image of me among our relatives (super educated and aloof) and kept me from being in the loop so that I wouldn't be able to keep up normal relationships. I realize this now. So when they meet me, I am different from what they expected. It is weird. I think I needed to have someone understand what it was like for me. But now that I have grown and understand my situation, I don't feel I need to bring others into it anymore. I know the truth and it is enough for me now. She can't hurt me, because they know me now.
Thank you all so much. This has been a rough one for me.
Love, Beth
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Beth,
I'm with mudpuppy on this one (and your other thread). You have done nothing wrong.
Ok, maybe it would have been better if you hadn't drunk so much at your sister's wedding, but everything else you did was just fine. You were angry. You were probably feeling very deprived. But as I think about it, I think it took an enormous, enormous amount of courage to do what you did. Even if it wasn't the optimum way of coping, you stood up in the only way you knew how. And, knowing full well how hard it is to lose any weight, I think your willingness to put your body on the line and risk something that would be hard to undo (lose the weight) says an enormous amount about how important this issue was to you. You were screaming in the only way you knew how, and that's just fine.
You are not responsible for your mother's behavior, she is. You are not responsible for meeting her needs, she is. You are responsible for meeting your needs, which you did.
Ok, so maybe the ultimate goal with the wedding dress would have been that you were able to speak up and say No! I don't want to wear this and I won't. And hash it out with your sister. But that's what voicelessness is all about, Beth. We don't know how to speak up and it's a long continuum up that spiral until we can be totally honest like that. And I have found that, while I'm not bad at talking to people on the "outside," talking to my sister is a whole other ballgame. For me there is so much competitiveness and deprivation involved (my mother gave her everything, so did my dad; she was the golden child). Plus, she is just so emotionally incompetent that I don't expose myself to her at all. I don't expose myself to her because I will get nothing back. I do try to model behavior for her here and there, but that's about it. I love her fiercely, but I know what I'm going to get and what I'm not, and I live according to that. I no longer take responsibility for meeting her needs. (Extending myself because she has no emotional competence.) She'll be 60 on her next birthday; if she wanted to learn by now, she would have. Not my responsibility. End of story.
Your aunt knows who your mother is. She grew up with her. She may have unanswered questions, or suspicions that she's never verified ... but she knows her sister. In a way no one else does, because that's how sisters are. If anything, you probably helped her confirm for herself, things she'd already been thinking.
Something about this thread is bringing up a lot of anger in me!!!!! Hmmm. Will have to look at that.
You're not responsible for your father, either. You surely love him very much; but that doesn't make you responsible for anything about him. He's had his chance at life and has done with it what he can or wanted to or whatever. You are only responsible for yourself.
I think when we're raised to meet our parents needs -- which is the opposite of how it's supposed to be -- that feeling of responsibility is a life-long battle. It's almost a psychological death not to respond and meet them and/or cover for or protect them, etc. It feels very foreign to us.
But none of us is responsible for our parent. Even when they're elderly, the care we give should be the care we want to give, not the care we feel obligated to give. If we don't want to care at all, that's just fine. That's being honest about who we are.
I'm going to say this one more time -- you are only responsible for yourself. There is no need for you to protect your mother or collude with her to keep up the mask. You simply aren't responsible for that. You are responsible for speaking up and speaking your mind, appropriately, and I think you did.
Everyone who has responded on this thread has given you great suggestions. I think it's fine if you want to write your aunt; I think Hops' letter is fabulous!! Just make sure it's a genuine choice for you, okay? And nothing you feel obligated or shamed into doing.
...I think there was more I was going to say, but I forget.
xoxo,
Lily
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First of all, I am sooooo glad to see you here. It's been a while!!
Thank you Beth. I poke my head in when I can. Just trying to stay out of pointless conflicts.
But I guess I can absolve him because of his love for other people.
So that is where my confused mind is now.
Well, that's not such a bad place to be. Just make sure you apply the same standard to yourself as you do your dad.
mud
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Hi Beth,
I love your heart!
I would offer one more thought to the mix. Please don't put yourself on impossible timelines to understand all the intricacies of your family's dysfunction. I'm kind of a gitterdone type. Early on in recovery, I felt like I had to figure it all out and deal with the dysfunctions of us all (FOO) ASAP. That added one more pressured layer to the process. One I didn't need. If I had it to do again, I wouldn't give nearly as much thought to the dysfunction of my family members. It's been years and years and not one thing has changed in them on account of me worrying about them and their ways. In the long run I think my concern for them hindered my own progress. It is next to impossible to find a balance that allows one to view the dysfunction for what it is, detach from it, and at the same time exhibit genuine care for the person. I admire you for your sensible approach.
Wishing you well.
tt
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(((((((((((((((LilyCat)))))))))))))))
Just a quick note on the previous wedding - my sister had promised she would pick a color and then I could choose a dress I liked. Than they went ahead and chose everything.... When I backed out of being matron, my NM called me seething (literally - I could hear hatred and spit through the phone) and she wanted to know what "she would tell everyone." I told her to tell them the war had just started (it had) and I wasn't sure I'd be able to to travel overseas as hubby might have to go... My dad piped in and told her to back off, that I didn't have to wear something I didn't feel comfortable wearing. He has always stepped in for me if it is a major confrontation. As for the drinking, I quit not too long after and remember that weekend as the hell I never want to go back to drinking-wise. I have been sober for four and a half years. Also, along with being sober, I have learned to be honest and accept confrontation and honesty as a part of life. I am no longer afraid to say no or put my foot down. I am not mean, but I try to be fair to myself too. Lily, thank you so much for taking the time to read and write and for helping me clarify my feelings.
(((((((((((((((((((mud,tt))))))))))))))
Thank you again. Yes, tt, there is no timetable. I think I am learning to live life at life's pace, however hard that can be. I think I am in a good place now. I feel good.
Lots of love,
Beth
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Hi Beth,
Thanks for telling me the complete story. I just wanted to clarify something -- I hope you didn't feel I was judging you or criticizing you or anything. I wasn't; it sounded to me like you were maybe beating yourself up, when I didn't think you needed to. I in no way meant to judge or criticize. I hope you pat yourself on the back every day, for how far you have come and the great successes you've made.
((((Beth)))))
Lily
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Gosh, Lily, I didn't feel that in any way. I am just so not proud of that time in my life. I just didn't handle it very well, and maybe that was why I felt I needed to explain myself. I so appreciate everything you wrote to me. Thank you so much!!!!!!
Love, Beth
p.s. I cannot change the past; I can only use it to shape my future!!
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Oh good. I just wanted to make sure. It's so hard to tell over email/internet.
It sounds to me like you've forgiven yourself and moved on. I'm so glad!
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Juno,
Yes, I do it to a small degree still in that my best friend knows about NM. She has no connection to her, though, so I have not clouded her image. There was a time when I wanted everyone to know. In a way I still do. But to have NM be exposed would be like the Emperor in New Clothes, and would leave a sad, lonely woman standing alone. Does she deserve that? Probably. Sometimes, though, I can't help but pity that small child in her, at the same time that I am disugsted with it and her. I guess I can't be like her (vindictive) or I am afraid I will become her. I was like that for many years as a young adult, and it is not a nice way to live.
I am also so happy to hear you on a medium plane again, Juno. Are you feeling better all around? How is the therapy working? I was so worried about you when you were at your darkest. I am so glad you took charge and came back.
I am sending you humongous hugs and big thanks.
Love, Beth
Beth, I'm sorry--I missed your comment to me. I will start a thread soon--I am ready to start talking about how things are going. Things are better for sure. I am very grateful for this medication. I think I will get my life back better than before. Should have done it long ago. I guess I like to push my luck and live "dangerously". Apparently I had to see how far it could go. I can see how curiosity killed the cat.....
And you have a big heart. Your mother is missing so much by not knowing you. And she is missing so much by not being able to learn from her mistakes as you do. (((((((((Beth)))))))))
Love, You Know Who