Voicelessness and Emotional Survival Message Board
Voicelessness and Emotional Survival => Voicelessness and Emotional Survival Message Board => Topic started by: gratitude28 on August 07, 2008, 08:00:37 AM
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Hi A;l,
I really do think that birth order affects some of the way we act. I think the eldest child (first born) sees things more in black and white and is less likely to accept gray. Youngest children seem the most accepting of gray... Just what I have noticed. So... where do you fall? Do you think it affects your outlook or values? What about your N? Has it helped create the disorder for that person, do you believe?
Love, Beth
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I am the baby o only. My older bro is from my mom's first marriage and I am the only child from my mom and dad's. My mom is first born and is the only wealthy one. So she controls the whole family.
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I am the firstborn. My NM is the youngest girl in a family of 5. She considers herself the baby girl. She feels she was the pampered, adorable baby.
Kell, if your mom was the firstborn, she would respect the firstborn more, I would bet. Just like my NM loves the baby girl. Just a thought brought about by your answer...
I was hoping this would bring up some ideas along this vein.
Love, Beth
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Dear Beth
i think the NM hates us no matter what birth order we have. I am the first born and my M is, too. Her sister, my aunt,is loving and has loving kids. The youngest child, my uncle, is pretty good, too. He was an empathetic parent.
My M does not have empathy and is a true N. I am not exactly sure how she got so bad. Ami
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Ami... hmmmm... so I guess my theory doesn't fit. I was wondering if they chose their GC by order? I don't know...
Love, Beth
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I'm the youngest, but I didn't have an N parent. (had some qualities, though). I am very much a youngest in aspect, however, my mother frequently told me that she wasn't going to have a typical spoiled youngest child. She sure did her darndest to meet that goal. (I don't think any of us were spoiled. Far from it. But I was the "least" spoiled.)
The N is somewhere in the middle of large family. There were 5 kids in his family and then I think they adopted 2 girls. He is exceedingly intelligent, though, and very gifted (really) so he may have received special attention from that. He is very close to his family, but he always described (in his sermons) his life with his family as being very different from everyone else. He is very liberal and they are very, very conservative. He would describe scenes (again, in his sermons) in which he sort of hid from his father. I never met them or anything (except the occasonial times his parents came to hear him preach).
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hi Beth
This has nothing to do with Ns, as I am through with them.
However relationships within a family are significant. There are 5 of us and I am in the middle, plus the only brown-haired one, with 4 red heads, and became the scapegoat. I was the most sensitive and shy one.
My eldest sister spent a lot of time with Dad when No 2 was born. He took #1 places with him and talked to her about farming etc., as though she were an adult. She developed a relationship with him, that no other of us did. When we were all older, Mom and Dad would trust only her suggestions.
My second sister became an angry person, like Dad, and I call her a bully still. I am not sure of the psychology behind this but she was the one, the only one, to constantly fight with Dad.
Then there was me and 18 months later my younger sister. I expect this short age difference might have something to do with my feeling 'abandoned'.
She then was the cute little last girl and then my brother, the youngest was the only boy!! (I think men always forget that it is they who determine the sex of the child.)
These are the relationships I explore....my beginnings and now I am putting it all together.
No N parents so I determine from my findings why I, and my daughter, ended up with one, plus I really question sister #2
Love
Izzy
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I am the firstborn--I think it made me overly responsible. But also kind of fearful or anxious due to always being the pioneer or guinea pig.
My mother was third of four in a widely-spaced family. My father was youngest of four in a similarly spaced family. My mother definitely identified/identifies with my younger sister. Perhaps that is one of the reasons I was "assigned" to my father. My mother is a typical middle child. The hand-me-downs she got were for the fourth time--oldest sister got them from the neighbors, then next sister got them, then my mother. Boo hoo. Then little sister was so much younger, she got all new things. Got all the lessons, etc. Boo hoo.
My father was youngest. Everybody took care of him. He had no clue how to "take care of". If not for Aspergers, perhaps he could have got by with love. But he couldn't understand or express emotions much at all. My sister drove him up the wall. He overly identified with her dysfunctions and kept trying to save her from herself. She did not want saving!
I might as well have been feral with the little amount of love and care I got. I got surface care. Thank God for the narcissist's need to keep up appearances. If not for that--maybe I would have been a little street urchin.
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I've seen studies on this but I think in some families there are really strong factors that play in. For instance, my NF was second born, but he had an older sister, who was openly considered worthless (as a female) and so discounted. My mother is the oldest in her family. But she is unbelievable psychologically--meaning, in fact, she barely exists. She has what is called "echo" or "mirror" personality disorder---whomever she's around, she mimics. She's been closest to me for the last couple months. She now owns the same clothing, down to underwear. Yes. Same bras, same panties, different sizes. As the oldest, she feels she could never be good enough in her family. It was old-school, cold, no emotions could be shown. And so she was attracted to me flagrantly N father--so happy to have someone be the human in the family, make all the decisions. Not sure which of them I can take less, at this point, or even which did more damage.
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Juno and gjazz,
Both your posts very poignant. You each touched me, very much. Juno, I really identify with the street urchin thing. That's how it was for me.
(((June)))) ((((gjazz))))
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Hi-
I was the baby of 3. I tend to sacrifice myself for men ( I had brothers) This was encouraged, and I did without while my second brother received enormous support in comparison ( still he received less than adequate items as far as basic needs, etc) My eldest brother was institutionalized at an early age, and I wasn't told about him until I was rather long in the tooth. Still, he rated more attention in many ways, as far as the esteem of my father, etc.
I enjoy supporting others , but am working on lionizing the men in my life and sacrificing for their aims- this trait is major N magnet !!!!
Love,
Changing
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Changing: So glad you call yourself "changing" because, yeah, that's a MAJOR N target! They love the self-sacrificing trait, which is too bad because, of course, that can be a very wonderful thing. As the only female I was expected to sacrifice myself in favor of my brothers as well. One especially memorable comment came when I was in college. I got a lot less support (I was the only one to take out a loan, get a job, etc) than my brothers, but even so, what I did get had to be cut when my middle brother "simply couldn't budget" and after all, "I could get men to buy me dinner."
No word on how I was to pay them back!
By that time I knew what my father was, but I was still young, late teens, and it hurt. Now when he says things like that? Honestly? It rolls off. He's so hopeless.
Interesting in my family: my father is the most profound N I've ever come across, and my mother the most profound "inverted N" or "echoing" personality. What a pair.
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Ahhhh, the birth order question. I have come to believe your birth order plays an important role in your life. But I also believe it is less relevant to your relationship with your birth family when you are raised by an N.....with one exception. I think generally the N is "closer" to their firstborn because traditionally they are able to pass along all their horrible narcissistic ways to the firstborn. Hence, the two develop a symbiotic relationship.
In my family, I'm the middle child...and hold many of the characteristics of most middle children. However, because I was raised by an N mother, a co-dependent father and have an older (firstborn) N sister, it has little relevance...It has little relevance because in an N family, I don't matter...Now if I was a firstborn but fought my Nmom's narcissistic ways and didn't transform into an N myself, I would be equally reviled by her and would not have gotten the GC role my Nmom has showered on my Nsis.
The truth of the matter is that when you're raised in an N household, it doesn't matter if you're the first, second, third or fourth child, the Nparent doesn't care about you and will not pay any healthy attention to you....In an N household, I think it's less about your birth order, than your personality and other circumstances (such as whether you were lucky enough to receive attention from non-family members or others who showed you love or interest). In my case, I was not...so my lack of self-esteem and self-loathing was complete. However, my brother, the baby, got attention from my Nsis who made him "hers" growing up as well as a number of friends who showed him he was worthy. My Nsis (the GC and firstborn) of course got literally all my parents' attention. In addition, in her adult life, she found a co-dependent partner who fostered and enabled her narcissistic ways.
While birth order does effect us some, the fact that we were raised in truly unhealthy, dysfunctional families by a N parent(s) who was incapable of demonstrating love, care or interest, cancels out any consequences of birth order. The damage we experience as a result of being raised by an N is far more significant than that experienced by firstborn, middle or lastborn children of healthy families.
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I am the youngest, Nmum is the youngest of 7.. I have one brother who was the curly haired beautiful one.. i was the ugly crying one.. A couple of years ago my brother scammed my mum for 250,000 k
Spy x
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I think in my family, the one who had it the worst was my older brother. My NF calls him several times a day, expects him to come running whenever he needs something--he kind of body-snatches him, for my brother to separate from my NF it would take super human strength. My NF even "picked" a wife for him, when he was quite young--you guessed it, my brother married my father, in female form. He's the only child that mattered to my father in any way, but it was/is such a destructive, sick way. We were all lucky to the degree we were ignored by the man. He was never ignored.
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I'm the oldest in my FOO and both my parents were in theirs. My N grandfather was the oldest in his FOO. I think birth order definitely makes a difference in how we were treated. I believe I got the heaviest dose of "parentification" since I was the oldest. I was forced to be a "friend" to my father since he is pretty much incapable of forming friendships on a reciprocal basis with his peers. My younger brother kind of retreated into a world of his own, and as a result developed a quiet narcissism problem of his own. With insufficient adult validation and mirroring, he developed grandiose ideas of his own abilities. It seems to me he suffers from some of the same problems as my father. My youngest sister was the "baby" of the family and got some preferential treatment as a result, but she still obviously suffered from my parents self absorption.
I like to believe I didn't pick up the family disease, or at least am more conscious of what is going on.
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Hi Gjazz-
It's good to read your insights into the "girls are supposed to sacrifice for the boys" FOOs- I was so very indoctrinated, sometimes I think back and cannot believe how fully I bought into the myth! My NM left when I was very young ( 3 or 4???) and my NF installed me in her place...My brother left home at 16 never to return except for brief visits. He got a full Ivy League scholarship, but NF would not sign my financial aid papers- I was 16 almost 17 and didn't realize that there was such a thing as "emancipation" through a court order- so I worked and paid my own way at a local college, etc. ( I had already started working in high school)
When my father was dying, my wealthy brother did not come to help care for him or to attend the funeral- I think the key difference here is the fact that your M remained as a caretaker, and you have a sister, etc- your family is not totally fractured- and that my brother disengaged and saved himself unlike your poor sibling. Still, I have an ingrained sense of "making things okay" for everyone and pangs of longing or guilt or whatever when I am ata weak point and think about the destruction of my FOO.
The bitter and prolonged divorce warfare with my husband has been a tonic as far as healing me from the "sacrificing for love" modus operandi- UGH!!!
Do you find as a "little sister" that you tend to the needs of others before your own, or was your experience simply the sacrifice of the girls for the sake of the boys?
Love,
C.
Love,
C.
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I may have phrased something poorly before--I'm the only female in my family, I have three brothers, no sisters. So I have no understanding of a close sibling relationship at all...the boys were expected to devalue females, including our mother and me. I think what bothers my brothers now is that it seems my mother and I have a closer relationship than any of them have with her, but that has to do with me being more patient and them being more likely to value people in terms of their professional accomplishments.
My NF is a master at training women to participate in their own humiliation. It was very devastating to live with that dynamic as a child; as an adult, I chose not to have anything to do with him on a day to day basis. Alas, now that he has "discovered" e-mail (we all curse the sibling who taught him), I get misogynist and right-wing political messages regularly. He thinks "smart" women will always agree with him, that they are unworthy of respect.
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Hi Gjazz-
UGHH- those wacky emails - I guess that's why God created the delete feature!!!! It is so odd that some people can latch on to their secondary sexual characteristics as if they convey some sort of divine power and differentiation upon them, even from others sharing their DNA...
Maybe you could email your Daddy an issue of the Onion - he might lighten up.
Hope all is well with you!
Best,
Changing