Voicelessness and Emotional Survival Message Board
Voicelessness and Emotional Survival => Voicelessness and Emotional Survival Message Board => Topic started by: Gaining Strength on August 18, 2008, 03:17:33 PM
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I spent the day at my mother's house trying to work out a difficult situation with a roofer gone bad and a window company salesman who does not respond. That is an issue that has given me opportunities to bump into my mother's dsfunction and recognize how it has crippled me.
I am truly fit to be tied. I feel every part of my body tying itself into knots. It is very frustrating.
She just left the house with her helper. Behind my back she complained in a caustic accusatory tone, "I can't stay here all day. I need to get some things done." As though I was doing something to impede her in any way. Of course she didn't say it to me - she said it to Lo. Then she said to me in a syrupy voice, "O thank you for all you do for me. I so appreciate it."
While I was out of the room she said to Lo with derision, " There's a paper bag SS has left on the floor. Pick that up. I need this room kept clean." Then when I returned to the room and was putting some folded clothes in the bag she said in a sweet voice, "Do you need another bag. I've got more in the kitchen?"
Earlier in the day I actually saw her do something that I recognized but had not been able to articulate. It is hard to describe. She was asking me about somebody's motivation for doing something which she judged in error. When I didn't respond or have an explanation began to "hold me responsible." And suddenly I had this flash into how I had developed this bizarre sense of responsibility for other people and other people's actions. When I was a child I did not recognize nor understand this dynamic and rather than putting it back on her I took it on. It is definitely part of the "paralyzing" effect - this sense of responsibility and condemnation for things completely beyond my control in addition to condemnation for errors of any magnitude.
Another issue is far too complicated to explain but the abstract is not. Lo told me about a conversation they had in which I had asked my mother how something was going to be taken care of. She later - (when I was not present) asked Lo why I had asked her about it because she always takes care of it. She said that to Lo even though the fact is that it is LO who takes care of it every time and it is not in the realm of things that fit under Lo's responsibility in any way. - My mother can lie to herself and to people who she knows know she is lieing and still in some strange way believe her own lie. How do you do that?
There is an insanity about it that is beyond belief. I cannot even come close to unraveling it all but I can begin to defuse the emotional response to it and I am now convinced that that is the key to healing.
She sets me up so that she can criticize me behind my back but she has never said anything to my face so that I can deal with the issue. This happens on many levels from the trivial to the significant.
Here is another bizarre thing she does. I have a fancy Rowenta iron that has a tank to hold water so that it creates powerful steam that can work over 3 hours. Lo likes to use that when she irons some of my mother's clothes. My mother forbids Lo from using it and demands that she use a smaller, regular iron. Both irons are kept in the same closet. The one with the tank works better but my mother claims that the other works better. My mother has never used either. She is filled with resentment that ths iron is there for some unknown and denied reason. It is completely insane.
She tells Lo that she doesn't want her children in her business, meaning to know about her health, her finances, her church or social life. And then she will turn around and tell me she loves me and ask me to bend over and give her a hug and a kiss. You can't both "not want THEM in my business" and love those same people. True love requires some level of intimacy and trust - she has neither.
All of these things happen on such a trival level. I have learned that that does not make them less significant but much more difficult to detect and thus the resulting damage is harder to undo. These are the power of the little "t" traumas - silent but deadly.
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Dear SS
I just happen to be here and since I never had an N-mother I cannot relate. My mother was more like 'one day at a time' and 'flying by the seat of her pants', and now that I am here I see that I do the one day at a time and fly by the seat of my pants.
I suggest you face your mother with the words she has spoken behind your back, that you find offensive, and ask her WHY she said them? ( "Are You into bad-mouthing me behind my back?")
Oops posted when not finished.)
Well maybe I am finished........CONFRONTATION WITH TRUTH!!!! How can she back down?
Izzy
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SS--Your mother is so relentless with these behaviors and beliefs of hers. It is amazing that you are now able to see it clearly, even having some objectivity about it. I tend to believe that these people are so used to themselves they truly believe on some level that they are "normal" and it is us that is the problem.
Your ability to see it now is going to set you freeeeeee!
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You know, SS, I have realized that these n women simply cannot help themselves. Their behaviors are so ingrained in them that they do not think about what they are saying. It is like my dad giving little jabs about being fat. My pregnant daughter finally said...........STOP SAYING I NEED TO LOSE WEIGHT!! DON'T YOU KNOW WHEN SOMEONE IS OVERWEIGHT THEY ALREADY KNOW THEY NEED TO LOSE WEIGHT!! MY SELF ESTEEM SUFFERS EVERYTIME YOU SAY THAT!!!
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Izzy - that's a thought. I think it might work with someone who was able to have some insight into their own behavior and its affects on others but she is not. I did receive her admission that she lies to me and has lied to me for a long time. That is more than I expected and all I care to hope for.
I like your concept of "confrontation with truth." I think that could be a great "test" to use when a relationship of any sort - business, friendship, etc - bumps into problems. If the person can respond to "confrontation with truth" then perhaps it is worth developing or maintaining but if not - time to cut loose. My mother can't deal with the truth.
I am no longer concerned with her behavior changing but into changing my responses. That is what will make a difference for me.
Juno - I agree with you - I am convinced that "seeing" what has been going on is a real key to unlocking my own disfunctional behavior. I am making great strides towards freedom.
OC - Good for your daughter - way to go. I am so amazed at these young people standing up for themselve. Now she's a great model.
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Dear SS
I think we got emotionally sick b/c of JUST what you are describing. You are describing lies and lies ,more and more ,one on top of the other.
We get so sick having to distort and twist to try to make some' sense" of the lies, especially when we were kids and totally vulnerable. Then, we grow up twisted and cannot see straight,even though we are AWAY from the parent and on our own.
I see that as the major reason for why I ended up so dysfunctional.
For me, I am trying to keep mining truth, deeper and deeper. I hope to be emotionally healthy, at the end. I think that emotionally healthy people can face truth and emotionally unhealthy people cannot.
So, the formula is simple, but very,very hard to enact ,of course.
You sound like you are getting important insights, SS. Love Ami
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I agree with you Ami and I am working hard mining more and more. I confronted my mother this morning with yet another lie and she lied about her lying and then it just goes on and on.
I learned from Lo that she says often that I am unappreciative. That is exactly what she would say to me as a child. It has nothing to do with me and yet I believed her for all these years and worked so hard to "prove" that I was appreciative. But for what?
Here is osmething I wrote earlier trying to sort my thoughts out:
Yesterday I saw that I actually have an expectation of humiliation. I subconsciously look for it and am not satisfied until I reexperience it.
Something similar happens when I set my sights on something good for myself - job, nice house, etc. It goes back to what I long ago understood - that my parents - father in particular - would sabotage me at Christmas and birthday in the following way. If I made my desires known he would be certain that my gift would not include the very thing I desired. My mother would belittle the object of my desire. My father would give me something "nice" and then punish me when I was disappointed and I mean punish - sent to my room or humiliated and raged at. The gift giving scenario was the only overt example of this behavior that i can remember but I am aware that other types of this behavior happened repeatedly in covert manners.
The consequence of this was for me to have a determination to work towards something and then to bump into a glass ceiling. I could not see the ceililng and could not give it a name. It had at least two components: harsh disapproval and lack of resources. The psychological "gas-lighting" that went on about it was this: the disapproval and lack of resources were both cloaked in moral indignation and moral righteousness and were both wrapped in a false claim of being rational (while completely irrational) and the lack of resources was accompanied by an expectation of getting the job done AND any failure is beneath moral acceptance.
I now know that my mother actually hates me. She is so filled with resentment and hatred and pours it all out on me. She actually told Lo that "unlike" my brothers, "I" was unappreciative, always comparing us. Of course they weren't, they weren't treated the way I was.
She is mean and vicious and actually SHE is unappreciative of all that I do to help her out. But the key for me is to learn to not internalize it. That is where I went wrong!!! I internalized it and processed it emotionally rather than rationally. I couldn't process it rationally - it was soooo IRrational. But now I can learn to dismiss it without taking it in.
That is what Olympic champions do - they let go of their mistakes. They have tomove on. If they linger over the pain of losses then they cannot move on. If they develop fear about future mistakes then they actually make more. The key is to process them, put the blame and responsibility back where it belongs, not on ourselves, and mourn the loss and move on.
I will consider my mother to be much llike a mentally ill human (not too far off) who needs care. A mentally ill abusive person who needs to be overlooked. That is who she is.
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SS - thanks for the welcome back. To respond to your posting - my mother criticizes and blames me and spreads pernicious lies behind my back all the time. I finally realized part of her motivation - well, most of it - is that her lies, etc., cover up her unwillingness to be a real mother, her failings. By blaming things on me, she can justify not helping me. For ex., she has told everyone within earshot that I am "extravagant" and that's why I lost my house. Another time she told people I was a drunk so she didn't have to deal with my breast cancer scare. Her failings are at issue, but she will never admit it. She would crumble into herself and disintegrate with her narcissism if she had to admit she was imperfect or had large flaws.
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Towrite - my gosh - you've nailed it! I do want her to be different. That will happen as soon as the rock in the yard evolves into my second child. Wanting, hoping, longing for her to respond to my needs, my love, my help is a complete waste and is very destructive to my well being. I am learning to change my emotional grounding. I am an orphan and always have been. Now it is time that I set my sights high and get to work. No help from them - even worse - devalueing just as you described.
Now I know it and it is time to accept it and move on. And for the very first time I am in the place to begin to do that. It won't be easy and it might not be swift but it will be certain.
Thanks so much for your post. I have always identified with your plight.
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Hi SS,
I'm curious as to how much of a role you have in overseeing your mother. Is she able to manage her non-physical needs? Does
she have the caregiver round the clock?
Just what is it that she thinks that you need to be appreciative for in the present ?
It is so very hard to accept the things you're talking about. My mom's caregivers told me some things, too. Yes, longing for her to respond to your love can be excruciating.
cats paw
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I am learning to change my emotional grounding. I am an orphan and always have been. Now it is time that I set my sights high and get to work. No help from them - even worse - devalueing just as you described.
Now I know it and it is time to accept it and move on. And for the very first time I am in the place to begin to do that. It won't be easy and it might not be swift but it will be certain.
SS,
You sound great. Sounds like you are embarking on a new life, a life which will be much more fulfilling. Congratulations.
love,
ann
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Thanks Ann - it feels really good. I'm so thankful. It's an up and down deal right now but it is growing stronger each day.
Cat's Paw - let me see how to answer your questions. Let's see. My mother is getting older and has never taken care of herself. She has never eaten well nor exercised and since she broke her hip in May of 2007 both of those things have gotten worse. She is on a walker and she can drive but really shouldn't. So she can get around physically though with great limitations. It is the other stuff that she is incapable of handling and as it turns out always has been. But noone knew until I figured it out after her sister died in Sept of 2006.
Just what is it that she thinks that you need to be appreciative for in the present ?
Well that's the joke. I don't have so much to be appreciative for in terms of her in the past ten years - especially in comparison with what her parents did for her when she was my age and younger - not to mention that she was married, had plenty of money and everything she desired that money could buy. But the interesting thing was - shortly after Lo told me she had said that I was talking about my mother and I opened my mouth to say that she was not appreciative of all that my brother and I have done to help her out with her house and her finances and then suddenly I knew - it had nothing to do with me - once again - the unappreciative one is her - she is doing the N dance - projecting - all of her faults and short comings onto me - as she has always done - my entire life - it has taken all this tie for me to see - wish I had understood 40 years ago but better late than never - much better late than never.
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Just what is it that she thinks that you need to be appreciative for in the present ?
IMO, many NPs view their kids as being "unappreciative", that's what I'm concluding more & more. IMO, many NPs see their kids as negatives, as burdens. They don't understand that the parent is supposed to do for & give to the child, not versa vice. A parent doing for & giving to the child is part of the natural order, but some NPs didn't undertsand that. I also think NPs who view their kids as 'unappreciative" are demonstrating N entitlement: their kids "owe" them because the NP feels entitled. IMO, NPs who view their kids as 'unappreciative' create guilt & shame (among other things) in their kids. I can only imagine what my life would be like if my NPs had not viewed me, treated me, as an unappreciative burden.
As far as Cat Paw's distinction re: appreciative for in the present vs. the past, I don't think the NP makes the distinction between past & present. IMO, when your Ps are NPs, you owe them forever.
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Hi Ann,
I was appreciative for what my mom did as far as raising me, and I know that when I was a baby, she was a "good mother".
I did feel that the "debt" I had was never ending, and that's very true about lack of distinction between past and present.
With my mom, I think so much of it was because she was so physically ill and so needy, and I feel overwhemed with sadness when
I think about it. I could have done some things better, but I'm not flooded with guilt about the things I wish I could have done.
She was very fortunate to have the care she did, but I'll always be sad she had to go through what she did, both physically and
emotionally.
I think with many of our elders, there were many generational differences that impacted our relationships as well.
When you are appreciative, but feel like you're never appreciative enough, yes, it creates guilt and shame, plus double binds. Still
untying knots, and sometimes my fingers need a rest. I'll just always wish I could have untied a few more of them while she was
alive. Sorry, SS. Don't want to ramble off on a tangent.
Here's to all of us having strong fingers to keep untying knots!
cats paw
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Sorry, SS. Don't want to ramble off on a tangent.
I treasure the dialogues that come up on these threads. No apology needed.
Ann3 - your post is very reaffirming and full of insights. It felt comfortable to read - like putting on a warm, terry cloth, scent infused therapy mitt.
many NPs view their kids as being "unappreciative", When I read this I felt a burden lift off my chest. Your statement took it from the personal to the general. Just seeing that helped me feel that I am not alone in this experience. All of the particulars feel so painful. It is painful to take in what I suspected and felt all my life. It is harder than I realized to move into the healing. Part of the pain, part of the double bind is that in being called "unappreciative" is indefensible. How do I defend it? I remember in my early 20s writing thank you notes for wedding gifts feeling overwhelmed at times because I could not put into words my deep feelings of appreciation. I would sit there in utter agony trying to figure out a way to express my appreciation in a way that it would come across. Little did I know that the problem was not the recipients of the notes but those people sitting right there in the room. My parents, for whom no words nor actions would be sufficient to express appreciation. It is helpful to see now, today, how paralyzing that feeling my parents had towards me was.
The dynamic that I am describing is really the key. My parents would harbor these negative feelings towards me - "being unappreciative" is one of several (I hope to be able to name others soon.) It was feelings that were not verbalized in front of me (but as I finally have proof of as of yesterday - they were verbalized behind my back.) Because they were not verbalized in front of me they became "covert" and difficult for me to identify AND impossible for me to defend myself against. But that was part of the action - to make it impossible for me to defend myself. That would have undone their empire. But the gripping power and control they had over me was that I FELT the accusation in my soul. And I have lived with that feeling all my life. I have lived with this and other "false" accusations. The way to heal is to get to a place where I can shrug it off - dismiss it without the "feelings" of shame.
While I am healing - it is still true that those feelings are easily triggered and only with great difficulty are they overcome. But the more I work on overcoming them the more that will take over and be the more dominant expression.
IMO, many NPs see their kids as negatives, as burdens.
This reminds me of an insight I got this morning. I saw that my mother, even as a child, was always trying to figure out what the other person wanted to hear. She would sublimate herself to try to say the right thing. While she was doing this she completely lost touch with who she was and simultaneously built up enormous resentment. When I was born, she named me after herself and spewed the venom and hatred she felt towards herself and towards others whom she felt rejected by, onto me. Since she has never moved out of this method of operating she is unable to see her role in it. So she is in complete denial as to why she directs such hatred towards me. Because she knows it is wrong to hate your own offspring - she completely denies it and is "forced" to but all blame and responsibility on me. I become the problem. This helps me understand why I have such a viceral reaction when my mother says something "nice" that I know is utterly vaccuous, because she is hiding behind the lie of it. It is a convoluted, hidden lie that demands appreciation. Appreciation for a lie. Wow - that's powerful.
A parent doing for & giving to the child is part of the natural order, but some NPs didn't undertsand that. This is sort of weird. I haven't yet figured this out. Somewhere deep inside I always new that this was the natural order even though my parents did not operate this way. I could not put the two incompatible pieces together - Parents give to and support and encourage their children. My parents don't. Something wrong with me. I could never see that the correct conclusion is : something wrong with them. Of course this is the source of another problem. People around knowing that parents give to their children - always believe the parent and NEVER believe the child that parents have not given. Another burden that children of Ns bear.
I also think NPs who view their kids as 'unappreciative" are demonstrating N entitlement: their kids "owe" them because the NP feels entitled. I need to keep this in mind. My mother often says (though she is lieing) that she appreciates what I do for her in helping get work done at her house. (she tells others the truth.) But if I can remember that she is working out of entitlement it will be much easier for me to disengage emotionally knowing that she is acting out of her narcissism and that it has nothing to do with me.
IMO, NPs who view their kids as 'unappreciative' create guilt & shame (among other things) in their kids. Whew - isn't that the truth. So much in this stuff about being unappreciative. I am so astonished at how much you unpacked out of this tiny phrase. Boy it sure helps me get to more of the pain underneath this. I had no idea how much was underneath it. I only knew that I woke up in excruciating pain today and that it was directly related to my experience with my mother yesterday. This post really helped me unearth it. Thanks.
I can only imagine what my life would be like if my NPs had not viewed me, treated me, as an unappreciative burden. That is the great tradgedy. I'm afraid that more and more parents and Ns and that the next generation will be awashed with people like us trying to unearth and undo the damage. Perhaps the work we are doing now will be valuable in years to come for far more than just those of us here.
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Cats Paw,
I love your image of untying knots. Maybe if you untie enough of them, you might feel less sad?
SS,
So glad my words resonated & reaffirmed. Maybe you feel validated? I know I feel awash in good feelings when I’m validated. I never knew what validation was until I started investigating Nism.
So happy you felt a burden lifted off your chest. Perhaps the issue of ‘unappreciativeness’ is something for you to check out further since it really hit home.
Yes, until we become enlightened to the N’s game, we feel cannot defend against a charge of unappreciativeness and that’s one of the reasons why they accuse us of it: How can you prove you do appreciate when the other person says you don’t? One way is to do more & more for them, give more & more to them, until there’s nothing left of us. Once we realize there’s nothing left of us, we hopefully say to ourselves ‘hey, wait a minute, there’s something wrong here’ and then, we may eventually conclude that the person, who always accuses us of being unappreciative, may be an N or some other type of disordered person. That’s when we start on our road towards healing, which inevitably leads us away from the N. We move away from the N by developing strong boundaries, emotional shielding and perhaps no contact.
Little did I know that the problem was not the recipients of the notes but those people sitting right there in the room.
Exactly! In this sentence, you are decribing the effects of NPs & becoming conscious that certain people (like parents) are Ns: Your NPs made you feel unappreciative, so you thought other people (ex: the gift givers) also viewed you as unappreciative. You carried your NPs' faulty projection thru out your life. Your NPs’ projection that you are unappreciative always made you feel paralyzed. But eventually, you saw that your NPs were projecting their junk (that you are unappreciative) onto you and now you have set yourself free of their projection.
Right: The projection that you are unappreciative is one of many negative projections (many of which were covert & nonverbal) that your NPs have projected on you. Perhaps make a list of all the negative projections that your NPs have projected on you? What’s so great is that now YOU see & can identify all the negative projections that your NPs have projected on you and you can ditch them because NOW YOU KNOW the projections are not true, they are not you. The projections belong to our NPs, not us.
That would have undone their empire. But the gripping power and control they had over me was that I FELT the accusation in my soul. And I have lived with that feeling all my life. I have lived with this and other "false" accusations.
Yup. You would have undone their empire if you threw off their projections. Yup: They controlled you with their projections.
So she is in complete denial as to why she directs such hatred towards me.
Yup: Those who project are unconscious of their projections.
SS, suggest you re-read Dr. G’s article Voicelessness: Narcissism http://www.voicelessness.com/narcissism.html:
Narcissists use everyone around them to keep themselves inflated. Often they find flaws in others and criticize them fiercely, for this further distinguishes them from those who are defective. Children are ready targets: narcissists consider children flawed and lacking, and therefore most in need of severe "teaching" and correction. This negative picture of children is a sad projection of how the narcissist truly feels about his or her inner self before the self-inflation began. But the narcissist never recognizes this: they consider their harsh, controlling parenting magnanimous and in the child's best interest.
Yup: Read it & weep, I know I did.
Whew - isn't that the truth. So much in this stuff about being unappreciative. I am so astonished at how much you unpacked out of this tiny phrase. Boy it sure helps me get to more of the pain underneath this. I had no idea how much was underneath it. I only knew that I woke up in excruciating pain today and that it was directly related to my experience with my mother yesterday. This post really helped me unearth it. Thanks.
My dear SS, thank you for you kind words, glad to help. I know it hurts so bad, but, IMO, I think it could help you if you were to examine this whole issue of being ‘unappreciative’, sounds like this may be a big key which could unlock a huge door.
SS, listen to your body: if dealing with your mom is causing you physical pain, then IMO, steer clear of her for a couple of days. I know she's infirm, but, she has a care taker & sounds like you need a bit of a break. Perhaps I am projecting my experiences of damage caused to me by trying to be the dutiful daughter caring for NM, who also had a caretaker. SS: Save yourself; NM has a caretaker & she will be fine. Give yourself a break from her. Don't let her suck the life out of you. Your NM is an N, so you are N supply.
In any case, WOW!!, you are doing sooo well, getting stronger every day, seeing the truth, eventho the truth hurts, but, feeling stronger because you see the truth and you know it's the truth because it feels reaffirming in your mind, body & soul.
LotsOLove to you,
ann
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we feel cannot defend against a charge of unappreciativeness and that’s one of the reasons why they accuse us of it: How can you prove you do appreciate when the other person says you don’t? One way is to do more & more for them, give more & more to them, until there’s nothing left of us.
Again, you have given me a powerful image that will forever change my understanding. These words are a prefect description of what happened and perfect armour against the "charge" of being unappreciative.
Now when I feel that accusation I will be wise enough to understand that there is NO defense against that charge. And further - I will immediately know that the "gift" whatever it may be was not given without strings, was not given unconditionally. AND THAT is key in the accusation against an N parent. Because loving parents give unconditionally - not every time nor everything but in their heart they do not hold a grudge against a child b/c the child is "unappreciative" at most they would feel sorrow - not anger.
The other point about that charge is that it demonstrates that the giver gave NOT to please the recipient but to please themselves so they would be thought of as GOOD.
This opens up a whole issue that I have thought of for years concerning philathropy and the reason people give. I think of most gifts (especially ones that put a givers name on something) as payoffs and purchases. I give $2M to my university and they name a wing of the library for me - gift or purchase. I argue purchase and that is what my parents have always done - tried to purchase something I could not/would not give them.
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Absolutely: giving with strings: Do we give to please the recipient (unconditional) or to please ourselves (conditional).
Now when I feel that accusation I will be wise enough to understand that there is NO defense against that charge.
Yes, questioning the motivation of someone who presses us to prove our feelings. Maybe something like this: 'Yes, I am appreciative and I have told you that and I tried to demonstrate my appreciation in deeds. What more can I do? Why do you feel/believe that I am unappreciative?'
Then, we listen to their answer and decide if their charge of unappreciativeness is understandable or a projection or the manifestation of N entitlement.