Voicelessness and Emotional Survival Message Board
Voicelessness and Emotional Survival => Voicelessness and Emotional Survival Message Board => Topic started by: Gaining Strength on August 26, 2008, 10:03:55 PM
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I was struck by this line that you wrote on another thread, attributed to Miller, "I love my children if I can respect them with their feelings and their needs and try to fulfill these needs as well as I can. I don't love my children if I see them not as persons equal to me but as objects that I have to correct......."
The latter is, of course, the way my parents continue to view me. I was surprised that I actually reacted to this statement. It is still far too comfortable. On first read, it actually sounded right. Scary -
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I was struck by this line that you wrote on another thread, attributed to Miller, "I love my children if I can respect them with their feelings and their needs and try to fulfill these needs as well as I can. I don't love my children if I see them not as persons equal to me but as objects that I have to correct......."
The latter is, of course, the way my parents continue to view me. I was surprised that I actually reacted to this statement. It is still far too comfortable. On first read, it actually sounded right. Scary - Shame Slayer.......I agree with this statement by Miller. For me it was very difficult and scary to finally realize that I wasn't loved by my parents. To feel this was shattering. Their treatment was dehumanizing and left me angry and lonely. The realization of not being loved, is this what feels scary? I'm not sure I understand?......James
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Is this meaning conditional love?
On condition that they never need correcting, I will love them.
From Miller?
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Hi Izzy...............Is this meaning conditional love?
On condition that they never need correcting, I will love them.
From Miller? I think you've asked a very good question here and I've wanted to reply but I have been thinking abt how to answer. I hope you did not feel too ignored or rejected by a slow response and if you did I apologize. In the context of what Miller defines as not being loving I believe there are other scenarios but "conditional love" is certainly one as I see it. It fits right into the parameters that define Millers statement. The parent has the advantage of power in the parent child relationship and when this is used to deceive or manipulate the child, possibly to fill the needs of the parent at the expense of the child's, the very threat of withdrawal of love must feel scary and dangerous to children. Their survival, b/c of their helplessness, renders them dependent on the parent and for a parent to manipulate with such a threat this may produce behavior in children where they suppress their authentic feelings and then feel forced to submit to the will of the parent, maybe to the extent where over time they are no longer in touch with who they are, their true feelings. Children who are treated this way, especially over time and many interactions, can become dehumanized by this parental disregard, a lack of empathy for the child's feelings and well being. He is in essence being treated as an object. I think real parental love is very transparent.... this is nothing but manipulation and deception. Children may not have the intellectual ability to see thru these lies..... they only desire to trust the parent. No child wants to know they're being manipulated and then lose the trust and love they need so badly in the parent. Growing up in a home like this forces a child to believe their being loved when they aren't. I can see this possibly leading to confusion and even a lack of attachment to parents who they can't trust which might then have lifelong consequences in areas like intimacy, the ability to trust one's own feelings, low self esteem, chronic anger and frustration to name a few. I see "unconditional love" tossed around and used like it's almost normal and having few consequences but I do not agree at all with this attitude and lack of insight. I experienced a lot of this growing up and this among other reasons led me into confusion where I found myself struggling against my own feelings. I developed an internalized fear of genuine communication of my thoughts and feelings with my parents and then this fear was extended into later life with other people. This is part of the reason I sometimes feel disconnected with myself and others. This is the best I can offer, as to my understanding of your question, in terms of Miller's statement. How do you feel about parents using what's IMO wrongfully labeled "conditional love"?Is this in any way love?.......James
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Hi James
the very threat of withdrawal of love must feel scary and dangerous to children.
The above from your post has two possible amswers.
1.) the parent tells the child openly, in words, "I will not love you when/if you do....."
2.) the parents doesn't say anything but 'does' in a look, or in body language, emotional withdrawal that the child notices and takes to heart without question.
they suppress their authentic feelings and then feel forced to submit to the will of the parent, maybe to the extent where over time they are no longer in touch with who they are, their true feelings.
Me
Growing up in a home like this forces a child to believe their being loved when they aren't.
Not Me...I never believed in error that I was loved.
Well, the whole post, James, is what happened to me. I never felt love from either parent and I disconnected very early in life. I've carried this with me for all these years and was painful to realize, which I finally did at age 15, there was no love in our home, that no one would love me, no one would marry me (this enlightment came to me at a wedding I was attending) This included parental love, and sibling love, and carried forth to everyone in my life.
I am aware of my feelings on about a 1% basis while the rest remain buried inside. I have tried to get this point across here, and before I knew why I felt 'something was wrong with me' (and me alone, the wedding thought) I built some pretty solid walls within my familly of 2 parents and 4 siblings. I did what I was told, and was still beaten, but I retrospect I do not recall ever doing anything wrong while I lived at home, for 16 years.
I was on my own at 17 working and saw my first therapist at age 19--what was wrong-- I had no knowledge of what was wrong and neither did any therapist, all my life, until I finally determined on my own what the problem was.
It was when I shoved, mentally, all toxic people from my life and put them on the other side of the fence, and have lived here on my own 2000 miles away from them and have lost all resentment and anger that I felt from when I was very little.
My life has been filled with such hurt, pain and guilt from mistakes I later made that if I were to really raise the lid on the 99% of my feelings, I just might go crazy. I am 69 and prefer to remain as I am, knowing feelings but not feeling them and...
...as much as I know I love my daughter, I am sure the feeling didn't osmose itself to her, and as much as I love my 2 grandchildren one for 4½ years and another for 2 of those same years, I was banned and now 3 grandchoildren are grown and my daughter is 44 and we get along.
When my daughter was an newborn, her father and I stood at the bottom of her bassinet, our arms around one another, just watching her sleep, and there was suddenly....you won't believe this, but it is true,.....suddenly to my left peripheral vision, a 'rip in my world.' I didn't put my hand through, perhaps I was meant to step in, I don't know, but I felt such an overwhelming Love for my baby, I know what that feels like. The rip disappeared and I have this knowledge of who I love, 1% feelings, but it is not what people know as real love. I underreact to everything.
It has taken me 67-8-9 years to put all the pieces together and it goes back to my parents and siblings and the lack of attention the taunting, the tormenting, the beatings, the doing things right to try to avoid this, doing well in school, being the best employee that every business ever had, amd carrying my pain from therapist to therapist until this final one to whom I told about the ME I know now.
He said he could hear happy, sad, humour, empathy, when I spoke and he saw responsible, trustworthy, punctual (his big bug with patients) strength, intellect, in my actions too.
So is this a third kind of love, or just me and an anomaoly in this world? This kind remains the same all the time without the hurts and abandonment feelings.
Then when son-in-law banishes me the hurt is there but not enough to kill me, when I lose my daughter and my grandchildren.
Unconditional
conditional
and Izzy
I expect you will see that I fit miller's writings very well?
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Hi Izzy....Yes, I do see that you fit Miller's writings very well but so do I and probably most of the members here. I do appreciate your candid and honest reply and I do hear your pain. Eventhough I felt sadness for you as I read it, I know that sadness well myself from my own history. But whatever the case I prefer to hear something real as to something thats pretend. Thank you. Well, what is there to say about not being loved as a child other than it's one of the most painful experiences a person can go thru. It was for me, was it the same for you? I did the same thing as you and built a wall around myself or maybe a better way to describe my reaction was to bury myself deep inside and simply wouldn't let people in. By the time I left home I see now that I was a raw piece of meat, electrified with pain. I had some of the same reactions like you did. I became a good employee where ever I worked for me this was about earning love that I never had but of course back then I had no idea of what I was really doing.
It sounds like your 2000 mile moat was a very good idea. I'm just doing that now and even though I feel lonely sometimes I feel better not being assaulted by my family. I tried for yrs to explain but of course it has never taken with them. Not even one family member really understands what I'm talking about. Did you ever fall into the trap of explaining, hoping they would understand?
I understand perfectly what you mean when you say only 1% feeling. I can't put a no. on my case but I know I was numb and extremely dissociated from so much abuse. I am struck by how forthright and how clearly you see by placing the problem squarely on your family of origin. You know, there are many suffering people who cannot see this. They simply don't understand and remain sorta delusional, probably more than anything they just deep down fear facing the horrible truth they weren't loved. I do believe you as you say your life has been filled with pain and hurt and guilt from mistakes you've made. I understand this very well. It comes with the territory, as far as families like ours always leave lifelong prints on our lives and then creates in us blindness. The feeling of going crazy, I used to feel that, but I found out that as I faced the pain, bit by bit, I didn't go crazy I actually found myself going sane. Of course I had to search (frustrating) for a long time to find people who were really prepared to listen to my story and help me bear the weight of my feelings. I found out thats a rare gift in another person. I hope your new therapist is something on that order. BTW way my therapeutic journey sounds similar to yours at least in the sense that it became just a regular part of each week and I needed that support to help with my anxieties, just so I could function. Of course here too my family thought I was nuts and ridiculed me for it all the way.
You being banned from seeing your grandchildren had to be very painful but It must feel good to be on better terms with your daughter now. I found your description of the "rip in your world" very interesting and I do believe that this occurred. I'm always thinking abt why things occur. Maybe it could make sense that the right side of your brain (feelings and emotions) may correspond to your left peripheral vision and for a moment you were able to actually FEEL the love for your daughter as a rip formed in your numbness of feeling. I am glad for you that you were able to experienced this and have that memory. It makes sense that this might be an actual visual display. About 3 yrs ago I was in very intense therapy and I was alone walking down the hall of my house and I was feeling almost dizzy with unexplainable terror. All of a sudden out rolled this very dark shadow from my body and seemed to move down the hall and vanish. I was frightened and confused I called my therapist and explained what happened. She didn't seem shocked, in fact she said now it's left and you probably will not experience this again. She understood then, but I didn't. I do now after much study and personal experience. I found it's true the body and mind can make a visual for emotional feelings thats very real. In my case it was all the unconscious terror created in my FOO and it was leaving as I was open to face it finally. Thanks for sharing this "vision". Its true.
I'm not exactly sure what you mean by "is this a third type of love, or just me and an anomaly". Are you speaking about your therapist?
Izzy thank you again for sharing parts of your story so honestly. I feel more connected to you now. This benefits me when I do it, and it seems to benefit others around me as they hear communication on an honest level without all the pretense most of us are surrounded by. I believe this type communication, if practised enough has a great healing power. It helps to reconnect us to our true feelings (even painful ones, a way to finally resolve them) and then to others who are looking for genuine relationships in which their valuing this sort of truth is the dominate emphasis in order to become real. I realize only now, that this is where so much of my life went wrong. Coming from a family where my true feelings could not be expressed openly without fear, I eventually became a "false self" as I was forced to shut real ones down and as a result in some ways became a performer and lost touch with the person I really am. This is very powerful work.......James
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Dear James
I have learned a lot from that post, even though it was meant for Izzy. It had much wisdom in it. I want to find my true self, too. What is life without it, really. Love Ami
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Wow James
It feels so wonderful to know that someone else can understand what I am saying.
I felt my reply to you was rather long, and rambling but that’s only the basics. It’s interesting that you could hear my pain and sadness. That has been said to me before and I wasn’t sure it came through, as I state these details in a rather nonchalant way, as though I read it in a book somewhere. Does that feeling come over you? It does seem strange to write something so real, but without blubbering all over the keyboard.
It is definitely a painful and life-changing place to be, a child who never knew love. Yes I built that wall, buried things, compartmentalized, whatever and as new pain arrived in my life after leaving the family, it just automatically went to wherever pain was stored. I just couldn’t feel it enough to kill anybody, or anything that dramatic.
I had some of the same reactions like you did. I became a good employee where ever I worked for me this was about earning love that I never had but of course back then I had no idea of what I was really doing
How very interesting as I did exactly that as well, and in looking back, I might not have been looking for love, but certainly looking for appreciation, a pat on the back, acknowledgment….and I think that feeling of , not ‘needing’ but, having appreciation stated still boosts me to a good level.
When it came to a relationship, I was quite aware of men who were not ‘for me’, for whom I had no special feelings, and when I met my daughter’s father, the feeling was different. In retrospect this was not the unconditional love we ought to have had, as it failed, we never married, but cohabited. and had a child. He killed himself in 1979, when our daughter was 15 and hadn’t seen him in 7 years. (I had left him in ‘66 but we had another year together in ‘71-‘72) She sobbed for 2 weeks straight over a man she never knew, but had fantasized into a knight in shining armour who would come for her some day, and bring her a horse. I knew this somehow, and she told me this only in our latest emails of importance about 2 years ago. I didn’t cry when he died and he is still in my mind and my dreams a lot and my not crying was excused as having to stay calm to comfort my daughter his funeral.
I so disliked the family gatherings when we were grown with our own families and were with our parents. I felt that everything was so ‘put on’ when some truths were meant to be shared, and those that were shared, although painful, were made into jokes. So laughingly partied when , if I could fully feel my distress, I might have taken an UZI to them all. Now we know the cause of a mass murderer: s/he was not loved as a child. So I therefore am willing to remain as I am. (You might notice that I use hyperbole at times.--it is a big help with my sense of humour)
This 2000 miles away moat is absolutely great. This is a No Contact form for my life, although I think I can see N-ism in one sister only. My brother and another sister came for a couple of days last year (Aug holiday weekend) I notified in advance that they would have to live in my world (of disability) when they were here, and I slept and did my morning things then called them at the B&B when I was set to see them. If they had to wait, well tough bananas. I have waited so often when someone had to run into a house and leave me in the car, or go down to the Hot Springs and leave me on the mountainside. For the first time I ‘had control’ over siblings. An able bodied person has no idea how to plan for a disabled person in the group--that’s family--friends thought about me. I stated my ‘outlook on life’ (meaning what you and I are saying) to that brother and sister when they came and they listened but did not discuss or ‘appear to understand.’. My intention in doing this was to say, I would always be here and would never ‘go home’ again. I had previously, jokingly serious, told them all that I would need one month’s notice if there was a death in the family. I would have to make arrangements to rent a hand-controlled car from Avis to be able to attend. That remark received with no response.
I said 1% to let you know that I know and I ‘feel’/ know the feeling, but am unsure how to determine a percentage, but it would be low. It is definitely clearly a problem that began with my family. No one else. Anything that is of a feeling nature is numbed down for self-protection., I believe So your feeling of going sane….I have to admit that is a very good way of stating about myself now. I have gone sane. I understand me. I understand the FOO , but I still don’t have 100% feelings and don’t want them. Are you in search of 100% feelings about your whole life?
I have tried all my life to ‘get to know my siblings’ and I cannot. They do not talk like this. I wonder if they, too, suffer this same disconnection that I do but won’t admit it, or don’t know what it is. I gave up on them after I moved away. Just a few emails and I could see the lack of caring. 3 of the 4 are with the original spouse, 50 years, 45 years, 40 years and I have never heard of one anniversary celebration.
Finding someone who will listen, who will totally understand can be a lifetime search. I don’t know your age, James, but did you have a time that ‘you knew what it was’ that put you off kilter? My family never knew about my lifelong therapy trips, until I told my brother and sister last year. As I said I knew something at 15, but figured it out in a long session with myself from 2002-2007 and finally knew at the beginning of this year.
Yes being banned from my daughter’s life and the lives of 2 grandchildren, and to not know about the 3rd being born was painful. I did cry initially, after driving away that day with a big empty, scary, black hole inside. Then the following year, 1992, I had a crying spell that made me know I was depressed, after crying all day. After that I never cried until March 30, 2008. Nothing made me cry until I watched the movie ‘Eight Below’. When the first dog died, I cried for an hour and ,as I continued to watch, more and more things happened to cry about in the movie, up to the end. I don’t know if you’ve seen the movie, but I’ll spoil it a bit. When those beloved dogs were left behind by there owner, because of an emergency elsewhere, they fended for themselves for …what was it?..close to a year? They were like ‘brothers and sisters‘, loving each other and helping the lame, sharing their food and sharing their strengths, and as I think of it now, I had a little brother die when I was 7, but already disconnected. The first dog died mid-movie and that brought on the tears. I remember thinking that Johnnie might be a ‘friend’ of mine, as I played with him a lot but he died at 6½ months.
I am so glad you understand the rip in my universe, and I’ve wondered, did I say? if I had stepped in through that gap I saw, …..well was it something I could have done? I could see another world of pretty flowers in there. I can sure believe your dark shadow rolling out and down the hall and disappearing. It is wonderful that your therapist didn’t ‘pooh-pooh’ it. AH!! so that is ’seeing’ emotions’! WOW! Do you ever see black shadows in your peripheral vision? I see many. I believe they are ‘helpers’ not ‘vicious’.
My therapist was also interested in my out-of-body’ experience at the time of my car crash that disabled me. I was 30. Wow! long time. There was no ‘walking toward the light’. For real, the sky was a medium gray, at 2:00am, and the trees were totally black. When *I* left my body, the sky became a mixture of all pastel colours, and the trees became a very light gray. I was a muti-colored ball of little twinkling lights (a bit like Christmas lights on and off at different times) just pin points and I was moving, not hurtling, upward to the South-East. I had left my body behind and, as though I has eyes in the back of my head, I could see more cars stopping and a man putting a blanket over me, another turning on his search light. It was so peaceful, so calm, without fear for my daughter (then only 5) in the future, without fear at all. Then, after how long??? I ‘backed up’ into my body and could again feel the dew of the grass on my cheek.
A ‘third type of love’--an invention of mine? I know who I love (and who I like etc,) but it is not fake and it is not all consuming. I think of my daughter and my grandchildren every day, but not in the forefront of my mind. They are always there and I have a ‘soft, peaceful’ feeling about them I don’t hate them, or wish them ill. I love them and wish them all well. In comparison to my siblings, I know they’ve survived life do all of us are over 65, and ‘now’ the deaths will begin. The eldest is 72, but her husband is 78. They had a 78th party for him. Why not wait until 80? Maybe he is unwell and my sister doesn’t find it necessary to tell me? This requires knowing what to do under the circumstances, so I have planned to send a single rose to the Funeral home, (if I know) and it will be for the one who died signed “’Bye Wilbur. Safe journey. Izzy.”
My little 4½ year old KC came to see me. He rode a motorcycle from Ontario to BC at age 20. He bunked over for 2 nights, and he was KC, but not KC. I told him about the KC I knew and he didn’t remember any of it. I said he was a kind and loving little boy! He was happy to hear that! I told him how I talked him down from the top of a pine tree, and how one day as he and Maggie, a baby then who he would hit and my legs were between them, and I were on the big bed and he heaved a sigh, oh what a sad, sad sigh, so I put my arm around his little shoulders and asked him what was the matter. He said, “Oh Gram. One day you are going to die and I am going to be so sad!” so I talked to him about all the things he had to do before I died, like get his driver’s license, graduate from school, find a lovely girl to marry, and have children of his own. These were all things that Grandmas like to know. Then when, in a long, long, time ahead, I died, I would ask God to make me a twinkling star and every time he looked up at the stars and saw one that twinkled and changed colours, that would be me, still loving him. He began to sing “Twinkle twinkle , little star--” and all was well.
He was 3½ and I never had things like that at that age or ever, to my knowledge. He had a voice. As I spoke with 20 year old KC, he was a different person from the 4½ year old KC. I was not around to see him grow and change: the same with Maggie from age 2, who is now a lovely 19 year old, and the 3rd, Matt is 16.
I was alone and ignored and age 3½ . It’s amazing too what we forget and what we remember. I expect that many of my blank spots were ’not too bad times’, and the ‘not so nice’, were lonely, sad, wondering and voiceless.
My daughter’s husband is a full-blown Narcissist and she would relate to all that is said here, I’m sure. She was brainwashed and emotionally abused, and I didn’t know about N-ism. I met my own N, who brought me out here, and was after my money as it turned out. I now understand everything my daughter went through and why I didn’t like him before I even met him, and why she could never stand up for me in his presence. I have forgiven her for that. An my sweet KC is living with Dad and I noted the beginnings of N-ism in him and I am so sad about that! My grandson, a Narcissist!
I was happy to share this with you, James, because I felt you would understand, and Voilà! Yes it gives us a connection that is very hard to come by.. When two people can talk on basically an equal level of understanding, it’s great! My manner of writing, I believe is quite straightforward and not all dressed up with pretty adjectives. It’s just plain the way it is!
Are you so sure you are a ‘false self’. REALLY? I am beginning to think that I am the most real of my entire family, with everything I have expressed. I doubt they would be as honest.
Take a really good look at yourself, then look at your family (if you 'know' them at all) and you might not be performing at all. I wondered about me at first and I realized I was NOT performing.
You are the Truth!
We are the Truth!
….oh is that deep? :shock: :shock: :oops:
Izzy
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Hi Ami..........My post was addressed to Izzy thats true but it's here for anyone to read. I'm glad you did. We learn from each other by sharing. You are so right, without our real feelings life isn't very meaningful and we can often feel very lost and empty. Maybe never connected to anything real except our old pain and then fearing life b/c of this old phantom where we wind up wasting precious time struggling by refusing to see what it is. I see you growing and it's very impressive and heart warming to watch....... Thank you James
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Something I did was to mentally put a STOP sign at my parents, and decided to forget about their parents who probably abused them, and I said what is often said, 'They did the best they could with the tools they had'. When I truly had this sunk into my head, I knew then I was doing something right. I was blaming no one. It happened. I managed to be a mother to my daughter in such a way as she gained part of what I was seeking to change, but also the part that I had not yet recognized. I can tell by what she says of the 2 children with her, that she has a much better understanding of good parenting, than I but she isn't perfect and might have some blind spots too.
Izzy
Hi again
In my search for my truth I like to give equal time.
This is a quote I just read from a post, and it is one whereby Alice Miller is called to task.
If Only Hilter's Father Had Been Nicer.
Miller's wish to make people more aware of the long-ago hurts that drive them and to bring an end to the cycle of generational abuse is undoubtedly a worthy one, but she stops at casting blame, without going on to provide a practicable solution. Perhaps there is none, except to try to come to terms with the damage done. Our flawed parents have had less than perfect childhoods, too; if we were to take Miller at her dire word, we would have to go back and reconstruct the entire human enterprise, which is unlikely to happen anytime soon.
(The underlining was mine!)
http://query.nytimes.com/gst/fullpage.html?res=9905E0D71138F934A15752C0A9649C8B63&sec=&spon=&pagewanted=print (http://query.nytimes.com/gst/fullpage.html?res=9905E0D71138F934A15752C0A9649C8B63&sec=&spon=&pagewanted=print)
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Hi Ami..........My post was addressed to Izzy thats true but it's here for anyone to read. I'm glad you did. We learn from each other by sharing. You are so right, without our real feelings life isn't very meaningful and we can often feel very lost and empty. Maybe never connected to anything real except our old pain and then fearing life b/c of this old phantom where we wind up wasting precious time struggling by refusing to see what it is. I see you growing and it's very impressive and heart warming to watch....... Thank you James
Dear James
You address the dilemma I am feeling right at this moment. As I heal, I have memories when I was more in touch with my feelings. Life felt good to the degree I WAS in touch with my feelings, I think.
Since I have lost touch with my feelings(teens on) nothing seems to have much flavor. My feelings seem muted. They all run together like a soup that has too many ingredients .
That has been my life since my teens. I think of all the experiences I had and they were gray,even the most joyous ones.
I want to feel my feelings and touch life in a real way. Thanks for understanding. It means everything to be understood, James.
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Izzy....I do like your letters. It feels good to see you so real and you've got some very interesting stories to think about. I am going to respond to the short post you made abt Miller first. She needs no defending but I think and explanation is order here for people who read this post and might misunderstand the author of this article you printed. Her work is profound and often misunderstood or even rejected entirely.
It is so obvious that this author has absolutely no real understanding about Miller's work. More than likely this person protects his parents STILL, at his own and his readers expense. Let me try and explain it in a nutshell
Her findings are about the effects of abuse on children. The major factor that explains the effects of abuse as it appears in the pain and denial of the adult, rest on the FACT that there is CHILDHOOD REPRESSION. This repression is the child's way without knowing it where he represses what is traumatic to him and does not consciously know this. All this is banished to the unconscious. Both memories and feelings. The profound helplessness of the infant/ child necessitates the use of repression in order to survive feelings that would destroy his body organs and may result in death. He does this out of fear and cannot challenge the parent unless the parent respects and understand the child's needs as expressed thru his cries etc and their own intuitively knowledge of themselves. Children brought up under these circumstances CAN express anger etc. and b/c this is honored by the parent repression isn't needed and they remain mostly conscious and don't suffer nearly the adult pain as some do.
In very abusive homes, possibly it's victims may later experience their entire childhoods are repressed and cannot be well remember as an adult. One feature of repression may be the numbing of feelings but the problem with that is as the child matures his feelings may still be unavailable or become then unavailable, though he may understand intellectually what they are. These repressed traumas don't go away they live out unconsciously in real time intending to meet old unmet needs often in symbolic ways unknown to the conscious mind of the adult.
Abuse creates in the child Fear of the parents and a lot of anger. These feelings repressed live on and many an adult still fears his parents and can hardly say no or be angry at another in adult life and defend himself or he seeks to overcome these feelings by lashing out with repressed anger at a scapegoat rather than the now phantom parent.
This author does not recognize repression b/c he is probably unaware of it in himself and doesn't understand the basis of resolution of old injuries. Many adults act out these past issues and are unaware of their origin in the past, they never can resolve them in realtime. They may fill these unmet needs symbolically and have a somewhat sane adult life but their actions are in essence unreal. The way Miller proposes to undo this is to unlock childhood reality into the adult conscious mind and then we can see the truth and find the real source of many struggles and pains of our present life. This does involve a FEELING of the child's world anger/pain and all. This does explain, once felt, our actions of today and then symptoms and behaviors can leave.
In a therapy as this, one does become conscious as he feels his child's world and he may experience a lot of hate and anger at the parents. Premature efforts to forgive or forget during this process will halt the process b/c one of the defense was most children were forced to forgive in order to survive. This needs to be seen and felt. An adult going thru this process is often told as his anger arises to forgive but it is wrong and backfires the process. . The child's anger must be felt and run it's course. Eventually the adult wakens from deep sleep and knows for fact the history of himself. Feelings free up, the False Self part of the survival mechanism loses appeal as old dangers are felt and understood. Then the adult sees the fallacy of the life he has been living and the repression does leave and feelings return as childhood trauma is processed and it's latent power dissolves. It is very unlikely the adult after this process will still hate his parents in fact the understanding is more often the case. This doesn't mean he will necessarily want to be around them but he can understand them. Once people become real they don't particularly enjoy being in the company of the unreal b/c it's so unfulfilling. No connection. For me I have felt my child feelings and know the truth I'm growing up now and can finally feel. I see the damage my parents suffered from being abused. After all N are still children trapped in the egocentric world of small children. B/c the adult does not understand they may not experience the understanding of their blatant disregard for others feelings and they may express hate arising from latent hatred due to early injury and feel they are correct in these ways b/c they do not know that the still live in repressed realities which no longer exist. The way out for wounded adults is to feel the past which dissolves the repression and now they become more conscious and are able to finally understand reality, both present and past. This brings maturity and it's here that compassion for and adult N parent or others may appear but not until the repressed anger and hate is resolved. Its essential to let this run its course for true healing and adult maturity to form.
You are intelligent, maybe you can understand this although my hasty explanation may not be very clear. To put into a few words her lifetime of work is almost impossible. reading her work is the best way but this even takes a lot of time to comprehend. IMO this author does not understand at all her work and has no real concept of what repression is and how to dissolve it. I'm not sure a person can truly understand repression and its effects unless you find it inside for yourself. Intellectually...yes. It would be similar to seeing fire but you would not realize it was hot until you touched it for yourself.Millers does provide a way out but this author has no clue. He still protects his protects unconsciously, not knowing what he is saying.....James Some nutshell eh!
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Ya James,
Some nutshell. :shock: Here's to it! Is that just one half and how did you manage to fit yourself into it? :lol: :lol:
I’m glad you like my letters. I’ve had an interesting life, it spite of everything, but am not Best Seller material by any means, and who of us ever will really know ourselves 100%?
Now I see you make reference to N parents in the body of your post., and I do not think of my parents as Ns. They were ‘innocently ignorant’ (I think that phrase was used on this board) and had no control over their own lives. I happened to read that paragraph and it reminded me of my ‘search for peace’ in realizing that blaming parents can go backwards indefinitely in search of all natures of abuse in the ancestors. I has to stop somewhere, as my mind was bogged down. I stopped at my parents.
I did recall the fear I had of my parents and siblings. I felt how alone I was in one family.
I don’t recall ever expressing anger. I am on a voiceless forum. I came because I had no voice. That voice was to be assertive in the now, but even in the past I don’t recall raging in anger. Mine was buried. I thought about each and every thing of ‘ill will’ that was done to me, that I remember, of course, and many were from the siblings. I examined my life in many ways, back and forth and back and forth. So I am actually unaware of when I lost all resentments and anger that I had been holding inside. I just realized it was gone No anger at my parents nor my siblings, and part of it was to “sweep them out of my life”.
Your explanation is somewhat wordy for my liking, in understanding with first read, but yes, the idea is there. I do believe we do have to look to the past and examine it thoroughly.
I have not been through therapy whereby the onion is peeled, one layer at a time. I refuse to do that for my own sanity, so I might never fully know my childhood--yet I might still be a child, as I feel young at heart. I am well aware of the plethora of books available to all of us in our healing. I have reached the downhill road in life and I do not want to spend it in intense therapy, or eating up books to improve my sanity. I want to live out my life with the peace and contentment I have now reached with the understanding I have reached.
I am not protecting anyone and I am not angry at anyone who was involved in leading to my dysfunction. Yes, I have this moat and I have my doubts that I will see any of my siblings again. And I feel no unhappiness at that. Now some people will think perhaps, but not say, “Oh you should see all of them at least one more time!” Well that’s a should statement and I finally reached the point that I am not looking for a pat on the head from any of them. They had their chance and blew it!
I might not even see my daughter again. Grandchildren maybe if they are in to taking trips this way..
For all of us, there are things we say with which others would like to take issue, just as that article does with Miller, and we are entitled to our own opinion and thoughts and it is nice to be able to debate them….check out the merit of a statement or thought.
Regards
Izzy
(Are these messages or newsletters?)
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Hi Izzy..........It feels so wonderful to know that someone else can understand what I am saying.
I felt my reply to you was rather long, and rambling but that’s only the basics. It’s interesting that you could hear my pain and sadness. That has been said to me before and I wasn’t sure it came through, as I state these details in a rather nonchalant way, as though I read it in a book somewhere. Does that feeling come over you? It does seem strange to write something so real, but without blubbering all over the keyboard. It feels good to me also to be understood by others. When I read your letter I saw the words describing your pain and sadness I could hear it in your words but I could also feel it with my feelings. I have done the same plenty of times writing or saying things that were sad etc and I had not a lot of emotional connection to the content. Blubbering in my book is OK now.
I think when your daughter was grieving the loss of her father it was very real. She really did love him and was sad that he was gone, in spite of being idealized in her mind. Your not crying and then "being excused" I have done that very thing myself but my real truth was that I wanted to cry but I didn't know how to let my feelings out and was afraid of being overwhelmed. Your story of mowing down the family with an UZI. I understand this well coming from a family where I was always wanting to connect in important ways and then having the door shut in my face by superficial stuff really stunk and left me angry. All I ever really wanted was to be able to express anything I was feeling and find openess from my family to receive and give back to me real answers and support. This was never OK with them and they made me feel even bad for having this thought. We all missed out on what a family is really meant to be. Your are very close as to your observation on the motives of mass murderers. There is real anger when children aren't loved and are instead abused. All these repressed emotions can build until finally one day they erupt in the form of violence. I see it in the news frequently but more often than not the examining experts appear baffled by looking for answers in usually the wrong places.
Just like you my feelings becoming numbed started in my FOO it was pure survival to not feel so much pain. I do want to have as many feelings as I can 100% would be great. I love feeling now but it wasn't that way yrs ago. The only way I've found to free myself from numbness was to go back and explore my childhood and finally let myself feel what I couldn't then. This over a period of time thawed me but I really have no idea to what percent. I just didn't feel alive without them and at times this bothered me to the point I didn't even care about living. In regards to your question of knowing when and why I went off kilter. Thats hard to answer in a way but I'll try. Mine started very early I felt something wasn't right. It's hard to be a child but so hard and confusing to be one in a family like mine. Honestly I really did not know they were abusing me. I just continued to think they loved me and believed I was the problem and this helped me understand the pain I felt. Of course now I understand what was really going on but it did screw up my life. I see how I made psychological accommodations in my personality to fit this mess but it wasn't until I was sexually abused that I took a nose dive and totally lost myself. This is perhaps one the hardest areas I've struggled to understand and find my feelings on. I'm working on this now, but it's tough and sometimes I just can't find the words or the feelings. It was terrible, shattering is a better word. I haven't fully recovered from it but I'm determined to resolve it and I know I will. Sexual abuse hurts in the deepest way and people who have not experienced it maybe can't really understand, I just don't know. The shame comes when I have to talk abt it and find my feelings. I hear or read this is normal from other people struggling from similar experiences but even their accounts I can feel dissociated from. This can be such an overwhelming experience, maybe you can understand. I think this abuse is what really pushed me to my limits and I sorta fell off a cliff and became unreal.
Like you my siblings and I are no longer connected. Well a better way to describe it would be that we never really were I'm just facing the facts now and honor my feelings by not having much contact. It's bittersweet. As I read your story on crying after the shakeout with your daughter. I remember when I stopped crying and I think it was b/c I was so numbed. I think it's a very positive sign that you are more in touch with your feelings now as you've been able to cry again. It's a great way for the body to rid itself of tension and you may be aware there is scientific research now that supports this. Crying is great IMO and I've certainly done a lot of it in the last 1 1/2 yrs in therapy and at home. The tears just came with the pain as I felt it and I just let it all go. I feel so much better now.
Your description of your near death experience fascinates me. I have a very interesting web site plugged into my favorites on my computer. It's called Near death.com. Hundreds of pages, not only long and detailed descriptions, but accounts of all kinds from researchers etc. Very fascinating you might enjoy looking yourself. I am not religious and have no firm beliefs abt any of this, but it's so interesting. A yr ago I had an out of body experience in my therapists office when I found some old childhood memories that were terrifying. I had no idea they were there. I was laying on her couch and all these images were running visually across my mind letting me see and feel everything as it happened. I felt a very strange sensation, my body just started to fall away sinking down to the floor and I remember wanting to take my hand and pull it back on. I felt suspended like I was floating on air. I'll never forget that happening. I would be interested to hear more of your story or maybe you already shared all that you remember.
It's getting late here so I think I'm going to sleep. I know I didn't touch on your reflections of your family and the N element but maybe we'll get around to that later. I do want to answer your last question though. No, I no longer believe I'm living so much as a false self I feel so much more real. I am still on my journey of discovery but I am very sure of the right path now. It took me becoming more real just to understand what a false self really was and now I know the real reasons why it even existed in the first place. I stick out like a sore thumb in my family now. In fact sometimes I think I wasn't really meant to be born into that family at all. It was never really me that was screwed up just all the distortions from the way I was treated made me feel that way. Are these messages or newsletters?(LOL)......Both, but whatever, people who visit this thread will have something to read. Thanks for the connection it's heartfelt............James
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To me, this thread is what the board is all about! Ami
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I was just thinking about what parental love is. I think James said this. It is about meeting the child's needs.By that definition, I was not loved.
It has taken me many months of grief to realize it ,but it is a tremendous relief. My body knew it was true.I had to be in denial to think otherwise.
When I was being abused and asked my M for help, she did not offer any kind of help or comfort. However, when Scott was graduating from High School with all sorts of honors, she wanted to come for that, so SHE could look good.
I can face the truth,now. Ami
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hi James,
My experience does not include N-parenting.
Mine came from 'a farmer's background' which in those days appeared to be what people did if they had no other smarts.
My dad had Grade 8 and my mother Grade 10 education. They were simple living poor folk, and babies came out of somewhere and overwhelmed them, maybe, so they didn't parent.
They fed and clothed (often in rags from pictures I've seen) but didn't talk and teach. I expect we grew up will the visuals around us.
They did not share a bed, nor express love to each other (in my presence anyway) or to us. They did not play with us, nor instill beliefs, boundaries, love for one another. We lived on an isolated farm and knew but ourselves until we started school. I expect a pattern was set then of, speaking for me, having just existed
We were beaten, as well as dad beat the animals. It was a part of the life we knew. We went to Church but I never learned anything except not to make God mad.
There were no birthday parties, and only Xmas and New Years were celebrated with one to dad's side and the other to mom's side, of the family. Aunts Uncles, grandparents were grownups who did not contribute to us in any way.
We helped dad with the farm chores beginning about age 8 and through to age 16 or Grade 13, whichever came first. We were tied to the milking schedule morning and night, so up at 5:00 am and right home after school. Later we helped with the haying and harvesting, and Dad grumbled about his 5 lazy little bastards and what did he do to deserve us.
However, for their birthdays, Mother's Day, Father's Day and their Anniversary, we always pooled our money for gifts. (I don't know where that came from!)
We were given no instructions about living life and were on our own when leaving home.
Except for Dad's beatings, there was no other physicalshowing of abuse. To me the abuse was in withholding (although not likely intentionally) of love and the gift of knowledge. We were given dangerous chores to do and were left alone a lot.
At a young age we were instructed to carry a lit coal oil lamp through the dark and upstairs to light the bedrooms. This scared me very much so we must have been warned about the dangers of fire. (I would never have had my little girl make that scary trip alone, with the possible danger ahead.)
When the ceiling coal oil lamps flared up, we knew what to do to battle the flame. We had no telephone or electricity or running water. We had no privacy or a place or things of our own. We had to share and we fought and never loved. we stole from each other and there was no tattling to parents--it was amongst ourselves, usually fighting.
My feelings of abuse as I grew were of physical abuse. I would never have thought of all the emotional abuse (stunting) that transpired. School was good for us, I expect. It was WWII years when I was born to age 6.
Mom always grumbled about heading to the poor house and anything wrong we did, I recall, "Shame! Shame on you!"
Dad grumbled if he missed the 6:00 pm new on CFRB on the battery radio, One evening he was late coming in from chores, so we 3 eldest listened and memorized the news for him.
It is my understanding that N-parents use words and lies and put-downs and exhibit feelings of superiority and hatred. So I am seeing the abuse from a different angle of taking on the parental abuse and the resulting lack of love and support throughout life.
I never cried when they died, dad in '86, mom in '94
Izzy
Edit In:] Something I think worth mentioning in spite of the above is that all but one of us Graduated Grade 13.
My eldest sister went to nursing school and became an RN. Later Courses put her in a postion to be Administrator of prestigious Nursing Homes
My next eldest sister was the Grade 12 one and then went to Business School and took an Office job., then married and now cleans houses and walks dogs.
I took a Comptometer Course and took an Office Job. I am self taught on piano and the computer and build Websites still and Accounting from home.
My younger sister and brother went to Business College as well after grade 13. This sister received her Masters Degree when married, along with her husband. Both are now retired teachers.
My brother worked in an office for two years then joined the Provncial Police Force and became a well-recognized and honest cop (He would forego promotions because he did not want to get into the levels where there were 'bad cops')
None of us was stupid. I don't know about the others but I have been measured with an IQ of 135. but I have not put it to good use. I was disabled so early in life and still had a child to rasie, I thought little about my future, only hers. She graduated grade 13 with honours and now has a University degree, is a midwife and a licensed hypnotherapist.
Children of my silblings include a policeman, an EMT, a lawyer, a chiropracter, an orthopedic surgeon, a teacher and 2 left over from the second eldest sister who never finished high school.
I find all this very odd!
Iz
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Hi again James
another topic I meant to address.
sexual abuse.
I gather from your speech you have quite the knowledge of psychology. Did you study it at all?
You never mentioned your age, but I'm expecting you are likely young enough to be my son, and sometimes the problems people have are different comparing the eras in which they grew up.
I grew up on Traditional Country Music and that has been with me all along.
Each person who has an N-parent, or is sexually abused, or is raised in ignorance, whatever will have a different response, because we are not all the same. Is that a fair statement IYO?
Each person who has not experienced certain things does not know exactly how s/he would have reacted had it been him/her? Is that a fair statement IYO?
So I am speaking of my not having N-parents and not (to my knowledge) been sexually abused. That gives me 2 things about which I know nothing (I'm excepting the n-relationships)
When I was, say 10, in 1949 we had moved from the isolated farm to a farm in a community of farmers with small villages at the crossroads. The hired hand from the farm across the way, married the farmer's daughter, a lovely woman, who became my mother's best friend. This woman was sickly with TB. Her husband exposed himself to us (girls) on different occasions and I have no idea what the laws would be then. Also up at the corner was a chopping mill and the owner was a friend of dad's. He 'bothered' my younger sister with suggestive remarks.
None of us said a thing because of the friendships with our parents. I know this but I do not remember any conversation. This could have been decided by my eldest sister, then just told to the rest.
I don't think I have suffered anything from those experiences, and they ARE different from what other people know as sexual abuse.
Both men are dead now but the son of the parents across the way, a teacher, was charged with sexual miisconduct with his students and lost his teaching license.
When all is said and done,his father probably abused him, and only the Lord knows if we had spoken up we could have saved the son from being abused and changed the course of his life.
I don't lose sleep over that or anything else. Ii am just interested in opinions and beliefs.
Thanks
Izzy
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Your story of mowing down the family with an UZI. I understand this well coming from a family where I was always wanting to connect in important ways and then having the door shut in my face by superficial stuff really stunk and left me angry.
GOD I love this!!!!.....in the fact that I was that way all my life and thought I was an oddball. It's having things, like these,'validated' as an honest feeling that makes me feel more and more real as I talk and listen
Izzy
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Hi Izzy.........Thank you again for taking the time to share a bit more of your history.Your home life sounds, very difficult from a child's perspective. You must have suffered so much growing up in a home where there was little if any real love. To me you have painted a picture where your story is set in isolation and the fear of your parents is palpable in all your descriptions. I feel sad knowing you grew up in this way with no way to escape except for the inventions of your own mind. You must have lived on pins and needles always sacrificing your own feelings in order to escape provoking your parents anger. I also feel, because of the rural isolation, you might have missed an opportunity where you could witness in families where there was more love, the reality of your own. This said perhaps in reality there weren't many of these types to be found in your area.
I grew up similarly b/c we moved around a lot and I was isolated in this respect . Always the new kid, and no extended family or stable friendships, I only knew what was around me and that was my immediate family. Of course, these people were very dysfunctional and this mute reality left me unable to put into perspective the abuse and lack of love I grew up in. I normalized it partially for this reason, but still there was a part of me in enough pain that I had the drive to persue looking for real answers that explained my pain and confusion and after all my searching I know I've found the key to my greater freedom and being able to feel, finally.
I can understand why you shed no tears at your parents deaths and honored instead your own true emotions.Perhaps you had more empathy for your child than for the people who hurt you? Have you as an adult ever been able to grieve the loss of your childhood? Afterall, to me this is an important part of a healing process and lets a person once again begin to feel rather than just intellectually understand the feeling.
Yes, I do have a psychology background but as I stated on another thread it provided absolutely no help to recover and heal myself. Just reading and exploring my inner self has been the primary source of a genuine understanding of why things went so badly in my life. Of course a large part of this has been a reality check of my family I grew up in. I do read a lot, but it took me some yrs before I could separate the good and relevant material from the harmful and irrelevant. Of course yrs of therapy, mostly bad, helped in some ways and I'm grateful that several yrs ago I met a therapist who did help me. In regards to your question of whether individuals react to abuse in their own way. I guess thats true to a certain extent but I believe there are general patterns where people think and behave that are more alike than different in spite of individual differences and experiences when it comes to the abuse they've experienced.
The thoughts on the UZI...well, I do understand those feelings myself. In my life the abuse created normal emotions of anger and hatred on my part but these could not be expressed as a child, my parents would not permit and I feared the consequences so these feelings never went away they lived inside and I found myself sometimes scapegoating people or institutional or governmental powers, which of course shared none of my history. They may have angered me for what seemed very good reasons but eventually I realized these were triggers that tapped my repressed reservoir of childhood anger without my being aware. A person can rid themselves of these sort of emotions by directing it at the original perpetrator (even if they are dead), and never towards a symbolic figure. It won't work this way. We must find in our feelings why our anger exists in the first place, in order to understand it, and then let them be expressed, even if painful feelings are then released. You can try this on yourself anytime and find out for how effectively it works. Remember, it's never to late to change and in my case I don't think I could ever stand still or give up and accept what I don't feel good about. Best to you ....James
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Dear James
I think you have found your authentic self. When we see a true self, s/thing inside us resonates, as humans. I see your true self and it inspires me .
I have been "unreal" for so long. I have been a trained monkey, dancing to the old tapes.
I am shaking them loose, a little at a time.
Thanks for your authenticity. It is a beacon out of the lies in which an N childhood enshrouds you. Love and Peace, Ami
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So glad to hear from you James. You speak from the heart and dont hold back and that is going to help you a lot. Some people might not like it but you are going to make it. Coming out of being frozen and feeling scared is terrifying and feeling the feelings of a vulnerable child again is difficult. But the alternative is worse. Slow death of spirit and soul. Acting out addictive, abusive behaviour on others, detachment and loneliness.
Rebirth is not a picnic. It is painful. The most searing pain is the healing kind. Share it with people who care. It hurts to look at our parents behaviour and realized that although they said they loved us, it sure didn't feel like love and the incongruence was so crazymaking. Now I look at the impact of the abuse and have sort of left my parents out of it. They were just poor sods who did ot have a clue.
I remember nearly two years ago how raw and hurt you were and how vulnerable you were to abusers because you didnt allow yourself boundaries. Me too. I am glad we are sharing this journey.
Sea storm
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Hi Sea Storm.........Coming out of being frozen and feeling scared is terrifying and feeling the feelings of a vulnerable child again is difficult. But the alternative is worse. Slow death of spirit and soul. Acting out addictive, abusive behaviour on others, detachment and loneliness.
Rebirth is not a picnic. It is painful. The most searing pain is the healing kind. Share it with people who care. You put into words a lot of my feelings involved in this process. It certainly can be terrifying, being vulnerable again, but I'm discovering that I can protect myself this time along with being better able to sense those that it's safe to share with. Finally I can see thru the lies of others and my parental distortions. I refuse to go back into that slow "soul death" your speaking of. It felt good to receive your support, understanding and encouragement and this is the type connection I never had but always wanted...Thank You James
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hi James,
We have been pretty much on the same page, but I see you have N parents. (Where did I read that?)
Are you making all this headway while they are still alive? or...are they gone?
If still alive, the others can learn from listening to you.
Love
Izzy
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Hi Izzy.....I'm not exactly sure where you read that I have two N parents but it's true. They are both alive and well. I haven't spoken to them in over 3 months, gonna be hell to pay for that snub, at least they'll try but they won't succeed. Anyway, they live part of the time in the town that I'm in and the rest of the time 1,000 miles away. The best time of the year for me is when thy're gone. Does it make a difference when parents like mine die? I've wondered about that many times.........Thanks for your note Izzy....James
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hi James,
Oh you have a 1000 mile moat, but some up close and personals?
About the dying...I suspect that if the person (you) has come to the realization that he was not directily spewing hate toward his parents, and even if No Contact was in place, and a reasonable understanding of the issues are in place, in his mind, about the part(s) he played and he is satisfied he is as almost guilt free as possible for the division in the family unit, then he can live in Peace (as they RIP or not.)
I think it would be sad if a fresh fight had just broken out, then a a death before unresolving the squabble.
As my parents were dying, I did what I felt best, without being phony and weeping all over them, and I have no regrets for my actions at the time of each upcoming death and the end itself. I attended with a solemn face....
.... and still received my inheritances, which point is made because I always thought the worst 'snub' would be if, after all my years of being the black sheep, I would be left out of any final papers. Beiing left in, with the others, made no difference though, when the time came just becasue of the (lack of a) relationship.
No Contact is still 'The Way', as far as I am concerned and it works.
Regards
Izzy
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Hi Izzy......Yes I have a 1,000 mile moat. LOL ..although for 6 months only, and the rest of the time I try to avoid the up close and personals. It sure helps.
I don't think I was ever a terrible son, in fact most of the time I bent over backwards helping them. Provided I outlive them, I believe I will experience few if any regrets at the time of their deaths. Whatever the case I will remain true to my feelings and may not shed a tear after what they've put me thru. I feel sad for these people but not enough to invite them back into my life. I wish our relationship was different but it's not and I know very well the consequences of messin with fire again so they have to stay out of my life, maybe forever. Best,James