Voicelessness and Emotional Survival Message Board
Voicelessness and Emotional Survival => Voicelessness and Emotional Survival Message Board => Topic started by: Anonymous on September 10, 2004, 10:08:12 PM
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Has anyone been able to forgive their N? I know that forgiving doesn't mean that I have to have them in my life or tolerate any more abuse. I want to forgive them for me, not them. But how can anyone forgive when the abuse is on-going? I'd be forgiving minute by minute! I guess what I really want to know is how can I have peace of heart? Dinny
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Dinny,
I think it takes a certain degree of both objectivity and insight to forgive. For me, it is hard to do and depends on my own personal environment as well. You probably know that having "peace of heart" is something that must come from within. The N's will never give that to us. Its still hard for me to believe that. So one thing that I have used as a little mantra...*forgiving too soon is just as bad as not forgiving at all.* It works on the broad spectrum. Having said that, I will not tolerate abusive behaviour, verbal assaults, and/or any attempts to control my behaviour for someone else's personal gain (ie, being used.) It seems easy to confuse forgiveness with extreme tolerance for evil, uncaring people. Forgiveness does not mean that I have to take crap from people. Maybe they don't know what they are doing, maybe they do. The best thing I can do at this point is forgive myself for believing their lies. And detach...move on.
Some *empowerment* ideas state that we must forgive and forgive *now* but I think forgiveness is delicate and can only be done on one's personal timetable. When you are ready to forgive, you'll forgive. I am starting with learning to love myself. Forgiveness is really a statement of love.
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...*forgiving too soon is just as bad as not forgiving at all.*
Quadruple- yes, yes, yes, yes! This is such an important point. I did this with my X-N partner waaay too many times, and the feelings of resentment always welled up again... I wasn't ready...
I can't add anything more to the very, very wise message of Dawning.
BT
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Dear Dawning,
Thanks for your insight. I think forgiveness is very personal and I've been beating myself up by trying to force it. I keep hoping that if I forgive, my pain will go away. I'm just trying to heal my broken heart. This N thing is pretty new to me. Especially regarding my mother. I've always know that my F is NOT NORMAL, but my mother's behavior is still very fresh. My role with her was to rescue her from him. But she always left me hanging out to dry. Never defending or protecting me from him. I feel like she always setting me up. She'd complain to me about him, I'd try to fix it, he'd go balistic,and she was nowhere in sight. Now she is furious with me because I won't take his abuse any longer. In her eyes, I have deserted her and don't love her anymore. Her efforts to make me feel guilty aren't working anymore. I still have my moments of feeling responsible for her, but I'm working on putting myself first. After 50 years of conditioning, it's difficult, but I can finally see the light at the end of the tunnel. I'm in remission from Cancer. Third year, Yippee. While I was going through my treatment of weekly chemo and daily radiation, I felt I had to protect my mother from my nightmare. She made it perfectly clear that my cancer was way too hard for to handle. In other words, it became all about her. The good news is that facing my second biggest fear made it possible to face my first biggest fear. My father. He didn't even wait one year before he started in on me again, but I just couldn't take it anymore. It was like I hit a wall. I was so tired physically and emotionally that I had no more to give. What a relief! But at such a high price. I ended up losing my entire family. That was 2 years ago. My daughter is getting married on Oct. 2 and I guess the emotions and stress of this wedding are getting to me. I do have a wonderful husband and a handful of really good friends whom I cherish. As Wayne Dyer says "Friends are God's apology for family". Thanks for letting me ramble on. It feel good not to have to defend myself.
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Dear Seeker,
I love the volcano analogy. It's so true. My mom has been described to to me as having the Abused Wife Syndrome. She was great until my father retired and she had to deal with him full time. Before then, she had a sort of double life. My father and then everything and everyone else. She managed things very well until he became full time for her. Then everything else ended for her. It's a very sad story and why I always tried to help her when I could. But she lost herself and I can't let that happen to me. It came down to either her or me. I had to choose me. I feel bad about this, but there comes a time in everyone's life when you have to save your own soul. I wish my mother was strong enough to do that. Thanks so much for caring to write back. Dinny
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Forgiving is a process that happens because of internal changes; i.e., one day you realize you've forgiven the person. It happens over a period of time, with changes coming from within. It's not something you can swallow like medicine because it's good for you.
If you are being abused and not yet protecting yourself, forgiveness is not an option. Forgiveness has a strong component of philosophically accepting the abuser's limitations and impairments. And you plan strategies accordingly. The strategy may be avoiding the person; or creating strong boundaries; deciding how much access to grant the person; how much tolerance you'll show; how you'll respond when they do X; etc. This still isn't forgiveness. It's being compassionate and self-protective.
Bottom line, forgiveness isn't that critical except self forgiveness! It is critical to strategize and protect oneself from an abusive, sick person who can't get better.
bunny
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I cannot fathom forgiving my sociopathic mother. In her presence, my anger consumes me. Every little idiopathy she displays forces me to relive the Hell I endured.
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I think Seeker posted this on another thread -- it is certainly worth the read:
http://www.forgiving.org/Working/myths.asp
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I haven't been able to forgive my N's, though I do understand them now (or what they are at least), but I did forgive my schizophrenic abusive mother after she died and I went through a few months of therapy.
Has anyone been able to forgive their N? I know that forgiving doesn't mean that I have to have them in my life or tolerate any more abuse. I want to forgive them for me, not them. But how can anyone forgive when the abuse is on-going? I'd be forgiving minute by minute! I guess what I really want to know is how can I have peace of heart? Dinny
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Here's what I've learned that has taken much work (still in progress) to achieve. I am jewish, and through learning much more about my religion recently and what the foundation of it is and what our "Torah" teaches...I have been enlighted. I've found that trying to forgive is truely one of the biggest blessing you can make. Our religion states that children cannot judge our parents and furthermore are ulimately sup[posed to respect them. Well, I doubt I'll ever get to fulfill this as it is meant. However, I can forgive her (N Mom) and pray for her that before she is no longer with us, she'll be enlightened to realize who she really is and what she has done to her family. It takes someone to feel the need to be that introspective to be aware of the things we all need to work on. I realize that this is out of my control. She holds the key to taking a good hard look at herself, and realize the she in fact is NOT perfect. I know what she's all about, and in order to have some sort of peace, I chose to accept that I can't change her. I can only control ME, which means I'm in control of how she affects me. It's working. Good luck to you.
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Great topic!! Here are my thoughts on this subject: Although you may never agree with or like what was done to you/is still being done you *can* get to the point where it does not affect you negatively. Ok, here's the controversial part but I truly feel this: You can even get to the point where you see the blessing in the situation. Ok, before bashing me, let me explain. I say this because I have gotten to that point many times. Despite being severely physically abused by my N mother as a child and still abused by her as an adult, I *have* been able to get to a place where she does not hurt me. This is not the same as agreeing with or condoning her behavior. It just means that she is unable to hurt me even if she is blatanly being violent with me. Then the next step is for me to see that I have forged my own parenting rules because of her abuse. This I never would have done if I was not abused. This is the 'blessing' for me. Granted, I'm not always able to do this, but when I do, I feel like it is true mental freedom for me and I feel great! I've listened to some Byron Katie CD's and books and followed her 'formula' for doing this. I'd write more but my children just woke up and I need to get my oldest ready for school!
-El
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Ok, all the kids are taken care of and I've got a minute. I wanted to add to my post above b/c I didn't have time to finish what I was trying to say. I don't want to be misunderstood in that I was in any way invalidating anyones experiences or very real pain they experience with their N's. I KNOW how bad it can be. I think that the abuse that our N's dish out is *entirely* and * *completely* wrong, sick and some may debate even evil. I also feel however that the decision as to how it affects us lay entirely in our hands. That doesn't mean that the beatings, tongue lashings, manipulations, etc. don't hurt. They do. They hurt tremendously when you react and feel a certain way about them. What I am saying is that you can react and feel differently in a way that is not hurtful *to you*. It may drive you N nuts (and most likely will!!) but you can get to the point where it doesn't affect you negatively anymore. It IS doable. In order for me to do this, I needed to take the positive out of each situation as it came up. Now the positive may be just a tiny speck among a ton of sh#$% but if I look hard enough, I find it. Then I put my focus on that. On the positive. I guess that would be considered 'forgiving' but the focus is on my own well being and not 'pardoning' wrongdoing.
-El
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All most of us ever wanted was for the abuse to stop -- just stop treating us this way -- just stop. If you don't love us, okay, but stop the abuse. Unfortunately, most of the time it never stops; in fact it becomes worse, manifesting into a lifetime of dysfunction and unfullfillment. The link I referenced above is sure on the money as far as I am concerned. There is a lot of myth surrounding the concept of forgiveness.
Stopping the abuse one way or another is a matter of survival. Now, if you can find a way to have a relationship with your Nparent and also stop the abuse, hey, go for it -- you are a miracle worker. If you are interested in a superficial, shallow and perfunctory relationship with your flesh and blood mother, you're a better ACON than I am gunga din. To me, that is more wasted time. We shall pass this way but once, and as far as I am concerned, I wasted half of it on a lost cause.
I think it is arrogant to think any of us has the power to "forgive" someone their sins. If you want to call trying to put a wasted life behind us and go on with what is left and make the most of it - if you want to call that forgiveness, then that is the direction I think I need to head. I know forgiveness brings peace to the soul (not absolution to the abuser) but I don't know what that feels like, except I don't wish her harm or anything negative. I only wish to never be abused by her again and I wish to protect and take care of myself. I have no desire to ever see her again, alive or dead. If I burned my hand on a hot pan, I would not keep picking that pan back up -- I would stop the heat. I don't care for superficial relationships with family members. I think it smacks of low degree and somehow feels dirty, not to mention what a waste of even more time. There is a whole world of wonderful people out there and a minimal amount of time to enjoy life with them. I feel very envious when I see adults with their familes all enjoying and loving one another. That is how it should be. You should be able to relax and be yourself around your mother -- you should be able to tell her anything and feel the comfort from a mother's nurturing love no matter what your age. If she does not want to give it to you, what is the relationship for?
I am not trying to be a hard ass, but I am not a saint either and it's way too late to turn hypocrite. I am real and I am passionate -- when I hurt, I bleed, I cry, I mourn, I grieve -- I'm not going to be fake and wave a forgiving hand over someone's head. Tsk, tsk. Like Red in Shawshank Redemption said -- we need to "get busy living or get busy dying."
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Discounted Girl, Correct me if I'm wrong but I felt your hostility towards my last 2 posts. I think that you were referring to me when you wrote:
Stopping the abuse one way or another is a matter of survival. Now, if you can find a way to have a relationship with your Nparent and also stop the abuse, hey, go for it -- you are a miracle worker. I
I didn't mention this in my post but I have minimized contact with my N mother, (also my N MIL and N brother in law) almost to the point of no contact. I see her rarely and briefly for the sake of my kids since they absolutely love her (and she's good to them) and to see my dad. My meetings are brief and I almost never answer the phone when she calls. When I do have very limited contact with her, yes, I am able to mostly not let it bother me. I was NEVER able to do this in the past. I'm not 100% yet but I am saying that if I am able to do it then it is definately possible. It's also possible to not be consumed by the past. Not to deny what happened but to not let it bother you anymore so that it controls you. Not in a shallow, superficial way but to TRULY let go of it. I am not in any way condoning having a relationship with anyone who is abusive. I don't have shallow, superficial relationships and then deny what I'm feeling. That is not in any way what I do. I feel totally misunderstood and realize that it's because I'm probably not making myself clear. If anyone knows what I'm saying and can clarify better than me I'd really appreciate it. Otherwise, I'll just realize that you all just disagree with me on this. I did not mean to offend anyone here and sorry if I did.
-El
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Nope, Eli, I was not being hostile to you -- I have been on this board for a year now and have not been hostile to anyone. I appreciate reading your views and experiences and do not feel offended by anything I read on this forum. I value everyone's input and don't try to sway anyone -- I don't criticize fellow-board members -- I am only accountable for myself and my own words.
I just felt prompted to make the remarks in my post after reading the entire thread, which included your postings. Everyone is different, special and unique and sees the world through only their own eyes. I doubt I would ever make it in the state dept, but I do have cordial (but what I will call meaningless) relationships, more like acquaintances whom you see now and then as neighbors or come together at some event. (I would never have made it back in the 1800's when fine ladies all called on each other (to gossip haha) every Saturday morning.) But I cannot imagine having such a relationship with my mother. I would not want one. I only wanted her natural love, period. She does not know me, never wanted to. She chose only to mistreat me to feed some sick and twisted need. I have my own children and cannot fathom anything but a deep, true and real relationship with them. Anything less would be a sham.
That's just me -- and I would never imply that anyone else should feel that way also.
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Discounted Girl, Sorry that I took your post wrong. It's PMS week (sorry guys) and I'm over emotional and seem to be taking everything the wrong way lately :oops:
There's no way that I would have made it back in the 1800's either! Too sterile and restrictive for me. I'd probably have been an alcoholic or something. Yeah, and I definately wouldn't fit into the ladies gossip circle either!
cannot imagine having such a relationship with my mother. I would not want one. I only wanted her natural love, period. She does not know me, never wanted to. She chose only to mistreat me to feed some sick and twisted need. I have my own children and cannot fathom anything but a deep, true and real relationship with them. Anything less would be a sham.
I totally relate to this! If it wasn't for my kids love for my mother and my own love for my dad and other siblings (we have *lots* of family events since I have 8 other siblings) I just would cut her off. Period.
I have been doing this program of Byron Katie's called Loving What Is and I was trying to sum up some of her stuff in my posts. But there's so much to it that after re-reading what I wrote I realized that I didn't even come close to explaining it correctly. And that I came off as totally invalidating. I guess I'm just seeing everything through this program right now since it's new to me and helping me sooo much. I feel like I have spent my whole life either dealing with or trying to heal from my Nmom's treatment of me. I feel like I'm finally starting to truly get on with my life. But it SUCKS that we can't have normal loving moms. I know!!! Take care, -El
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El, thanks for your reply - & I just put on my glasses and realized that your are El123, not Eli ... :oops:
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I'd like to address this to the first post on this thread by Discounted Girl.
WOW, wow and wow. What energy you tapped into in that post. So many emotions and so right on in my opinion.
We shall pass this way but once, and as far as I am concerned, I wasted half of it on a lost cause.
I have this thought too. For me, it is liberating and a little scary to finally realize that both my parents are freakazoid monsters.
feel very envious when I see adults with their familes all enjoying and loving one another. That is how it should be. You should be able to relax and be yourself around your mother -- you should be able to tell her anything and feel the comfort from a mother's nurturing love no matter what your age. If she does not want to give it to you, what is the relationship for?
Scary question. For my mother, the relationship exists for her to use me. She has no nurturing love. Period. For me, the relationship doesn't exist on any meaningful level but I am making it clear to her that I will not be used anymore - by my refusal to give her supply.
Certain things are unforgivable at this point in time for me. And I don't like it when people tell me things like *forgiveness will set me free* even when I believe their intentions are good (and sometimes people say that stuff with bad intent too as a way to get you to be compliant and more easily controlled.)
I really enjoyed reading that post of yours, DG. Very empowering stuff.
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I think it is arrogant to think any of us has the power to "forgive" someone their sins.
I don't think so at all, because it is only about the self, and not the other person. It is merely using your personal power to bring peace back to the self, and not purporting to have some ability for external power of forgiveness over someone else.
I know forgiveness brings peace to the soul (not absolution to the abuser)..
Exactly. You are reiterating the point above, in regards to its non arrogance --i.e. it is not a judgement over someone else that one makes from a position of superiority. It is only about the forgiver's inner self.
But even so, sometimes we do need make judgements about people, and we can do so without being arrogant whatsover. We have to discern things about others behaviors and general character, to determine how we will relate to them, or how, and even if we want them in our lives. If we discern/judge they are harmful to us and we don't want them in our lives, we can move on to forgiveness and to purging the pain they've already caused us, from our inner selves.
If you want to call trying to put a wasted life behind us and go on with what is left and make the most of it - if you want to call that forgiveness, then that is the direction I think I need to head.
This is exactly how forgiveness is defined by many. But maybe sometimes we can get too caught up in semantics, too. It might have slight variations in meaning to different people, but it's all the same if the bottom line is to stop ourselves from being affected so deeply by the harmful behavior of someone else, that we have no control over.
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This subject of forgiveness has come up before and I just equate forgiveness with acceptance. Since I've accepted the situation with my mom and had miniscule contact, I've become more peaceful and able to become myself. I don't believe in forgiveness in the Biblical sense. I don't feel that's in my realm of power (I guess like DG if I'm reading correctly).
But it is good to be free even if it means realizing you aren't really loved. I don't miss my mom either.
N
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Forgiveness is the fragrance the violet sheds on the heel that crushed it.
- Mark Twain
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I have grappled with 'forgiveness' for years.
The pain is still too strong, the scars not nearly healed, perhaps. I am constantly learning about N, and therefore seem to understand the terribly abusive behaviour, but I have not yet, no matter how strong my sprititual faith, I have not yet reached the ability to forgive my NParents for stealing and nearly destroying the essence of who I am.
That is why I take some comfort in the phrase "Vengeance is mine, sayeth the Lord." I have Peace in my faith and trust that some day each of them will need to be accountable for the cruel, painful and evil things they have done. Furthermore, that day of judgement will be out of my hands and in the hands of God.
That is where I am on this journey, today, and that is how I have the strength to carry on.
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Forgiveness,...
I am new to this board but every thread I have read has elements of my life. If I could have a dollar for everytime I tried to forgive my first husband, I'd be a really rich woman. I think there are just some things that piss us off!
I think the bigger picture is forgiving ourselves for allowing this to happen in the first place! How could we treat ourselves this way? Why in the world did we let it go on this long? At least these are the things I asked me.
When I am able to forgive myself issue by issue, I am able to move past the ex. He really isn't the important one here. I am now and my kids.
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I feel a need to chime in here- if only to read my own words in black and white.
I do not forgive my Nparents. They are hateful, unloving, liars with only themselves to blame for the way our family exists today.
We are a crippled family without love, compassion, caring. We were taught that in life. We were taught to be judgemental, to place yourself above others, but never think you could be as good as the Nparents.
If they were trying to atone for their behavior in the now, I would have a different perspective. But since they continue to pour out the hurt, badwill, and animosity, I have no reason to feel I need to forgive.
Forgiveness comes when the wronged one is shown by the wrong-doer that they take responsibility for their actions and are sorry and will try to not do it again.
There is no way my Nparents have ever thought any part of the above statement.
But who am I to forgive - it doesn't really matter what I think - they will pay for their sins in the after life. That is my satisfaction! :wink:
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Ellie,
your words are the rest of what I was trying to say, a while ago.....thank you for saying it so clearly -
and it is what I mean with my auto-signature, as well. That is the only comfort I can get from all of this toxic NParent experience.
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After reading the posts here, I realize that I have a long way to go. I get so sad when I think of forgiveness. I am always so ready to forgive my Nmom, I have been waiting my whole life for her to say sorry for something and it never happened and probably never will. I too just wanted to have a real natural love. Not the kind of love where there was a show of concern but immediately back onto her. I want to be able to say, its okay, I forgive you. If she would only say she was sorry for ANYTHING EVER! My nmom would give me a squeeze hug, so tight that you would have to say, ok ok stop, it was the best thing in the world to me on one hand but the reason for it...was because she didn't know how to say sorry after an argument, it was her way of saying it was over...until she brought everything back up at the next fight. I want to forgive but at this stage I guess I need to hear an apology first. All of this is still so new to me.
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I want to forgive but at this stage I guess I need to hear an apology first. All of this is still so new to me.
There is no way to forgive someone who is still actively abusing you. Forgiveness can only occur from a distance. Otherwise it's far too dangerous. Your mother absolutely should apologize but she can't. She's five years old emotionally. It's unfair that your mother is a five-year-old in an adult body. My mom is probably about 8.
bunny
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Thank you, bunny,
for your solid comments.
You are helping me keep my NM in perspective, by reminding me of what we know to be true. As long as the abuse continues, whether verbal, physical, or emotional, then there is no place for 'forgiveness' as such. You are helping me stand my ground, and stay strong, to help deflect the arrows and pain that she sends my way.
Mine is six, disguised as an 85yr old woman. :evil:
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For me, Forgiveness is not an all or nothing thing.
This morning I woke up and realised that my N father really truly
does not know the damage he does to others. It was astounding to me because the neglect and entitlement and grandiosity and abuse is to easy for me to see. But he seems truly confused whenever I suggest that I need something more from him. SO that even tho I am living with him, and he is critical and neglectful, I find myself feeling sorry for him. Sad for him that he is such an emotional child. He accomplishes a lot, but never seems to really enjoy his accomplishments.. (even tho he brags) I dont see the normal sense of fulfillment in him that achievements would bring to a normal person. He discounts himself at the same time as he boasts.
What helps me to forgive, although I can only forgive sporadically and incompletely, is that he treats him own heart no better than he treats mine. he doesnt love himself either. Its all a charade.
He broke down once and admitted that he felt like a total failure, that he had never been good enough. This was after he was diagnosed with cancer. It was a moment of truth, but then he forgot it... I of course, remember what he said word for word.
I too allow myself to fantasize about how when he dies he will have to feel all the pain he caused my mother and me. My worst fear is that he will be met by angels and let off the hook, never having to understand what he did to us. Obviously its easier for me to forgive if I believe God will punish! :-)
Some days I wonder, what did I do to deserve this father? Was I a narcissist in a past life? Or maybe it is some sort of test to see if I can
love unconditionally.
Elizabeth Kubler Ross in one of her books, stated, Why should an advanced soul judge a kindergardener? Narcissists sure seem to be spiritual kindergardeners. Perhaps if we can find love or forgiveness
in some degree towards the N's in our life, we will grow spiritually.
(this does not mean taking any abuse... by the way)
Of course, this means we are superior to the N's. does this make us
N's too? LOLOL
Lastly, what I need to forgive is God, for giving me the N's who tortured me. At least God didnt make me a N, a person who never could feel
close to or equal to another person. it must be hell to be an N.
Thanks for reading these musings.
Judith
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Hi Judith:
although I can only forgive sporadically and incompletely,
You have totally validated my feelings with your words. I know it is a choice for me to forgive completely and consistently but I am, as you say, forgiving sporadically and incompletely.
I wonder if I do that because of the repetition of the n-behaviours?
I mean, I forgive this or that... but then, very quickly, I have something new to forgive.
Over and over with such frequency and consistency....there is something else to forgive.
I guess I will have to decide to forgive consistently, and frequently...in order to forgive completely.
Yes...I think that might be it for me.
he treats him own heart no better than he treats mine. he doesnt love himself either. Its all a charade
This is something that is clear and helps me want to forgive as well.
Thankyou Judith....for your honest, insightful post.
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I second Discounted Girl's recommendation of the Forgiveness website earlier in this thread. I have started working the book recommended there "Forgiveness is a Choice" by Robert Enright. I knew that having all this anger towrd my Nwife for so many years was not good (I hate it), but really showed me what I am losing out on for myself and with others by still having it. I am more motivated to forgive than ever so I can get rid of those weights and put my time and energy into getting the good stuff in life. I have learned so much and started to grow again by learning from all the good people on this site. Thanks a bunch!
longtire
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Hello longtire, I just read your story below. I too find it strange that other people grew up in a home where parents talked to them, let alone talked about emotions.
Just wanted to say here, I think forgiveness isn’t something you can ‘do’: it’s like having a cold and then waking up better one day, and the cold has gone. I think forgiveness is like that. One day you think about those you want to forgive and there’s an absence of anger, frustration etc – and you forgive simply because you don’t feel anything bad any more.
I think the more you put time and energy into getting the good stuff in life, the more you’ll move towards forgiveness without noticing. You’re a good person and you’ve given so much, maybe it’s time now (right now!) to give a lot more to yourself. Portia