Voicelessness and Emotional Survival Message Board
Voicelessness and Emotional Survival => Voicelessness and Emotional Survival Message Board => Topic started by: Gaining Strength on September 07, 2008, 04:02:08 PM
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The wounds that N parents inflict on their children generate specific brain patterns that are alterations of the normal patterns. those patterns are reflections of dysfunction - they interrupt the "rational", reasoned processing of experiences. N parents wounding is not rational. It calls "love" what is nothing close to love which is nurturing and support and protection and providing sustenance.
Once the pattern is invoked it effects the way that children of Ns process everything - including behavior from people who are not Ns. The great tradgedy of this is that children of Ns have a tendency to face the world as though everyone in it were an N and these children of Ns become locked into destructive patterns that stand in the way of healing. So difficult to see through new "lenses" but essential. Healing IS seeing through new lenses.
For me - the key to healing is the 2nd Agreement from don Miquel Ruiz's toltec wisdom:
2. Don't Take Anything Personally
Nothing others do is because of you. What others say and do is a projection of their own reality, their own dream. When you are immune to the opinions and actions of others, you won't be the victim of needless suffering.
Anyone here made progress in this endeavour? Would you share how you do it?
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from the book review inHops: Suffering
"Victor Frankl, a Viennese psychologist and neurologist, survived three concentration camps but, in the same stretch, lost both his parents, his brother and his young wife. His response was not to subside into despair but to pay closer and closer attention to what was going on about him and, even more particularly, inside him."
Frankl seems to have figured it out.
from the book review:
"A week before he killed himself, my friend Pat met me for lunch. Halfway through the meal, he looked up from his burger and said, "I'm already afraid you're going to leave." I reassured him as best I could, but ultimately, I did leave -- life couldn't be put off -- and when I look back, I can see what a relief it was to go. His pain in that moment was more than I could bear. And ultimately more than he could bear. "
I'm stuck in this last place - sometimes Pat and sometimes the author - waiting from someone to relieve my pain or hoping to relieve someone else's. The only way I can see to real healing is Frankl's.
I have come here day in and day out trying to find some kindred spirit to hold my pain and to recognize it. That endeavour never lifts me up, usually leaves me empty and longing for more connection - like an addiction. Frankl transcended - my being feels greater "comfort" with Pat and Louis. That's where I have to make the changes.
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Hi (((((((((((SS))))))))))))))
Have you read Frankl's major work, Man's Search for Meaning?
It was huge for me.
love to you, lots...
Hops
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No but I am thinking that it is a must for me at this time in my life. Your Suffering post was so timely for me. It was what I needed to hear at this juncture in my healing. Such a gift of coincidence. Thank you and the cosmos.
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I was in significant distress last night and this morning and turned to EFT to try to get to the source. After some work I got to the message that in my FOO I was choosing between "condemnation" and "rejection" on an unconscious level with every thought and act.
The preference was "condemnation" and I have lived into that all the while experiencing both. the fear of both is paralyzing to me. Breaking free of these is essential to healing for me.
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For me, SS, under shame is grief. I have tremendous grief at how my life went, most specifically how I was betrayed by the 3 people whom I should have been able to trust.
I am seeing my F ,now. He betrayed me as badly as my M,but his exterior was nicer.
He told me that he didn't help me when I was being abused b/c no one helped him. I thought he loved me and cared for me,but he saw me being hurt and did not care.
He really did not care.
When I told him that my door was broken down repeatedly when my H was in a rage he said,"That is life."
He did not care and does not care.
I am grieving that,now.
Underneath, I feel more real and have less shame.
The pain is horrible, but I felt it as a child and repressed it.
It is a pain that is as bad as a death.
Ami
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Philosophically speaking, I think the buddha was correct: Desire is the cause of all suffering. (And attachment, in the psychological sense, can usually be boiled down to desire.)
Replaying the old wounds is useful only in the sense that we can see with adult eyes what we couldn't understand as children. Then, as now, I believe the suffering from those wounds is caused by desiring what is impossible: that our parents be normal, loving; decent human beings and able to see us as we are and love us anyway. When it's finally possible to accept that impossibility - to feel in our hearts that it's unchangeable by us - then we can begin loosening the the internal "commands" that cause us difficulty, pain, paralysis - that are really just our desire beating it's head on the same old brick wall.
Commands like changing who we are, in hopes of getting that pat on the head, the hug, patience as we slowly try to master new skills, without criticism.
Commands like beating ourselves up emotionally, in the desperate hope that maybe THIS is what the parent wants... and THIS is what will finally achieve the desire we seek.
Ya know, I was a compulsive, voracious reader from the time I was 5 or 6. I read way above my supposed grade level, from the start. I taught myself how to build a house by reading construction manuals. But about 5 years ago, I simply stopped reading. I had no explanation or reasons for it. I've read maybe a dozen books in this phase. The only comparison I've got is art work. As a student, you look at many, many different kinds of art - immersing yourself in various historical styles, modern work, all of it - and this is encouraged by art schools. Supposedly you're "educating" your eye. But what I found, is that one tends to mimic, appropriate, unconsciously imitate what others have created before you. So I stopped looking at art, except for the need to see what kinds of art are being marketed - and sold.
I wanted to create art that was different, unique - more ME - and less susceptible to those unconscious leanings toward meeting what appeared to be the "criteria" for what "serious" art was.
Books are art that communicate ideas and experiences. I think I stopped reading, because like with the art - I wanted to find out what MY ideas and experience was; what was unique to me - without the clutter of other people's ideas, experiences & opinions. Guess therapy was a real logical choice to begin that, huh? I'm not dissing the value of reading & collecting wisdom, clues, and understanding from books - I've benefited too much from them to not value reading.
Just wanted to make the point, that I found it was more important for me - to finally let other people's ideas, wisdom & experience go for a bit - and spend the time figuring out what MINE were. That is the technique I used - getting to know myself - all of myself - a lot better.
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I did the SAME thing, with the very SAME reasoning, about reading poetry, when I wrote the most.
Thanks, Amber.
First time I've heard anyone else articulate that.
xo
Hops
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Hi SS
I. too, read Frankl. It was my first book in these past 6 years after the N. I had a lot to wend my way through, but I never forgot that he said that no matter what had been taken from us we still were the owners of our own thoughts.
So many things I've read and the Forums I've been on to share, the last one being here, I often might have diagreed with someone's post but couldn't explain to myself, WHY? and the posts with which I agreed, I tried to Understand why it fit with my life.
It's like we see here "Take what you want and leave the rest."
I have naturally always gone back to my childhood, but family is family so I went elsewhere where troubles had arisen. The search led back to my family and as angry, and put-down, as I'd always felt with them, that was my answer. Had that been a healthy relationship the following problems might have been my issues, but my issues began with my family, and that is my final conclusion.
I consider them toxic, still after all these 65 years and they are on my toxic list, along with the N who my daughter married.
That's a bit of how I did it!
Good Look
Izzy
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Hello SS,
I have also read Frankl's Man's Search for Meaning and highly recommend it. In addition to what Izzy quoted re owners of our thoughts, the other point he made that stuck with me was the story of his release.
He and another prisoner were walking through a farmer's field. One prisoner was taken up with destroying it. Frankl stopped him, which angered the other man. What? After what they have done to me? Frankl replied, if you do this then you become just like them.
The book is short but chockful of insights like that. What I appreciate most is the message of being is enough. I'm sorry you were hurting, SS. I'm glad you are able and brave enough to work through it. MP
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No one will ever understand you. I have pondered this thought and realized that a lot of my hurt has been over this very thought.
I am so glad you have shared this. I see the importance of that concept. There is a priest who used to say over and over how we are driven in life to be understood. I stayed in that place nodding in agreement and rehearing his words over and over. BUT that is the problem - while it may be true that we long to be understood that longing sends me right back to PR's point that "Desire is the cause of all suffering. " I believe that I have FINALLY arrived at the point of stepping past frustration and accepting the fact that you state, "no one will ever understand you." It is sad but I see your point that letting it go is the only way to freedom.
I talked to my therapist today and told him that my unconscious delimma of "chosing" between being condemned or being rejected left me in complete frustration. Had I been able to understand then what I have paid a hefty price for understanding now is that a better choice for me is/would have been cutting my losses and choosing not to be in relationship with them.
That place of frustration is for me a place of "comfort". It is what I have always known but it has been painful and destructive. It becomes clearer and clearer that I actually opt out of those places of frustration (couldn't make a choice until it became conscious to me how I was participating in this frustration.)
OK - I'm going to stop. I know what I want to say and am not pleased with how it is coming out right now. I'm going to put down my computer and come back later and try again.
I have lived in the place of frustration not recognizing that there were other options. Now I see that there are options. The place of frustration is one that I grew up in and was forced into (by projection) and stayed in as a means of survival. The double bind was that using my determination to get myself out of bad places ALWAYS cost me severe punishment - more condemnation, more rejection (just like I experienced with my FOO at my brother's custody hearing 2weeks ago). So I quit using my determination and my will. FOR YEARS all I could do was research issues about healing but apply none of what I learned. Now I can. Now I can actually see how I can OPT to not need to be understood by others, I can actually OPT to see how I and others are reacting out of my and their wounds and stop the loop of reacting, reacting, reacting. But in order to do this I must consciously call into mind what choice I am making and call into mind how I have been stymied in the past and - well let me stop and try again later.
I know what I want to say but still struggling to articulate it. I want to respond to all these very interesting posts. Very helpful. AGain getting great help, making real tangible progress. Thanks, thanks all.
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You can!
You are!
More and more.
It just takes practice.
So you won't get it every time. That's okay!
(I always, always only heard the word "back" in "Two steps forward plus one step back." I never did the math to realize that I had taken a step forward.) I get that now. I think that's what compassion for self is.
As are you...so many steps.
kudos,
Hops
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Ami – you wrote in part: I thought he loved me and cared for me, but he saw me being hurt and did not care. He really did not care. When I told him that my door was broken down repeatedly when my H was in a rage he said, "That is life." He did not care and does not care. That is so painful to read. Living in a world of rage and broken doors is not life and we a human definitely intervene to protect those we love. Love is sanctuary, protection, encouragement and building up. Violence is the opposite and sanctioning violence is the same as violence itself.
PR – attachment as suffering is exactly what I needed to hear again. I am devouring your point that our attachment to creating love out of what our parents heaped on us is attachment. Revisiting the past helps me see how I continue to try to rework this and how I find a comfort in it.
PR & Hops – your words about reading and poetry touch a profound experience beyond my comprehension. How I admire you both.
Izzy – you wrote that Frankl said: he said that no matter what had been taken from us we still were the owners of our own thoughts. That appears to be essential to his survival. I must learn to reject the projected thoughts of my parents and own my own thoughts. Thank you for this.
Miss Piggy – if you do this then you become just like them. I have a way of turning these words on others when I don’t like what they have done but I must apply these words to myself. If I ultimately turn hatred and projection onto my brothers and parents then I am just like them. There is a paradox in the healing process in that it is necessary to experience that hatred in order to break through the grasp their own hatred bound us with. But we must break through and release that. How and when is ever an imponderable.
CB – whew – I can’t thank you enough for this quotation "No one will ever understand you. Realizing this is freedom.
This is helpful too, Healing, for me, has come from the realization that the wounds are just part of my experience but not part of ME. I remember years ago someone telling me that although I was the child of an alcoholic that was not ALL that I was. At that time it had a strong effect on me. But the point that you make is even more powerful - the wounds are of my experience but not part of me. Time to extract the me that lies underneath the scars.
I have quit trying to discover the TRUTH of the situation, and straighten the other person out. And I am being kinder to myself--not trying to straighten myself out.
That has really helped the tendency to condemn myself--or to reject others. I certainly see the power in these words. I think applying this concept into my thought process, my “valuation” is a way out of the “judgment” that my parents put on me and which I accepted. THAT judgment is the pile of bricks on my back.
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AS I realized that as a child I was trapped between the unconscious choice of condemnation and rejection the weight of this choice almost choked the life out of me. I could see that I “opted” for condemnation as rejection was for me the equivalent of death. The irony is that condemnation led to rejection and so the outcome would be the same. I can see that as a young child I opted for condemnation because it seemed that by performing well I could overcome the condemnation but rejection seemed to be a deathknell. I see now that had I, instead, chosen to remove myself then I could have taken the sting out of the evil choice of condemnation or rejection. Of course as a child I could not remove myself. I needed my parents in order to survive. But NOW I can choose to remove myself. Now I can make this choice and I can apply it in reverse – I can see what that would have meant for me long ago.
The great crime of what the wounds of parents is that it has such a deep and long life. It is a cancer that is extremely difficult to extricate. Difficult but not impossible.
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SS -
the real impossibility in those situations with those kind of parents, is that it's IMPOSSIBLE for us to not BE who we are. Even if we are adept at creating false selves, playing our prescribed roles in the FOO...
... we can't stop being who we really are.
When there are no real parents in the environment, we simply don't KNOW this.
All we learn from "those" parents - is to meet their expectation; play our assigned role; repeat endlessly the same cycle.
When we can touch our real self and get to know her - then slowly, gradually, it becomes "possible" for us to learn that we can simply be ourselves in life and that doing this doesn't necessarily result in the usual abuse.
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It took me a minute to get what you were saying but I do get it.
I am in a place where I am confronting head on the lies of what my parents projected onto me. At times it feels like an impossible task, too much to overcome but when I apply your words, it's IMPOSSIBLE for us to not BE who we are then I am able to see that I am fighting the wrong battle. I am fighting the projection that I took on. If I look at your words then I can make a shift and operate out of the person I was born to be not the empersonation of my parents projection.
This is huge for me. I think it may be a completely different animal to shift rather than to overcome. Thank you.
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I am working hard, yes hard on facing these wretched feelings that ovecome me and until recently paralyzed me. I have to look at this sentence and acknowledge the victory it describes. I am able to push through the paralysis now. Oddly it does not feel like a victory. It doesn't even feel llike progress. But that is clearly the OLD message speaking, no YELLING at me. IT IS progress!! I can push through the paralysis. It is not easy and it is not pleasant and it does not feel like a breakthrough BUT IT IS!!!
This is boring to write and probably more boring to read. But I find great relief and strength in the repetition. In fact, I am certain that repetition will begin to rewrite those misguided brain functioning.
I watched Oprah yesterday and saw an astonishing 16 year old Phillipino girl who sings beyond belief. As a young child, growing up in poverty she dreamt of singing with Andrea Bocelli and Celine Dion and would draw pictures of herself with them. This summer she sang with Bocelli in Tuscany and yestderday on Oprah Celine invited her to sing with her while on tour.
I introduce this because I am convinced by much that I have read that being able to envision what you want helps tremendously. I believe that but have been completely blocked from being able to use that technique. Today I am pushing myself first by writing what I want to accomplish and then by trying to create a visual image of it.
One of the problems in the past has been the ADD effect that once I started working on one thing I would immediate jump to a tangential item that had to come before the one and then the jumping would continue from item to item until any depth was completely obliterated.
In the past two weeks I have been pushing through the personal demand that I focus on ONE item at a time, sometimes one dish at a time. (Haven't even been able to do this in the past.) It is excruciatingly painful - sounds absurd I know but painful, actually painful none-the-less.
Without question I must keep all of the process in the forefront of my consciousness. I must call this stalling and this sense of condemnation and rejection A LIE and I must inject in their place a strong image of what I hope to accomplish, hope to be.
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I can't tell you how it happened for me. But, one day... I simply started going about my daily tasks...
and never once thought back to some past event or wound or issue I was struggling with. Yes, I still wrote most mornings... but even the topic of the writing was far removed from actual pain - glimmers of it still poke through sometimes; sometimes anger. None of it paralyzing or overwhelming anymore.
I think your technique of visualizing what you want to be free to be... will ultimately be successful. It may not happen tomorrow... there may not be visible evidence that you can point to in a week... but you will be making progress "under the surface" that will show up one day all by itself. The fruits of all the struggle will come ripe. Seeds will germinate & flowers bloom...
Patience. Don't push yourself too hard... don't expect yourself to achieve "the impossible" overnight. Be kind to yourself.
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I think your technique of visualizing what you want to be free to be... will ultimately be successful. It may not happen tomorrow... there may not be visible evidence that you can point to in a week... but you will be making progress "under the surface" that will show up one day all by itself. The fruits of all the struggle will come ripe. Seeds will germinate & flowers bloom...
Thanks PR. I see subtle signs of change and I will stay with it - steady eddy.
Patience. Don't push yourself too hard...
Patience - I'm learning.
Being hard on myself - I'm giving up.
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I was listening to an interesting story on NPR this morning in which a small group of people in York, PA were discussing their experiences and thoughts about race. A couple of self-described large black men briefly mentioned how they experienced being treated differtly from their white friends when they entered some establishments. One man described the anxiety he felt as he entered these racist places.
When I heard this I had this sudden insight into the difference between a wounded/damaged victim and a person who moves forward. Suddenly I saw the value of transcending the offense. That is not the same as denial though denial has some interesting facets.
To experience clearly different treatment as a result of the unchangeable issue of race could swiftly tap into an explosion of rage (it would in me.) But the anger or rage would not solve or resolve the issue. It would exacerbate things. But transcending the offense (rising above, ignoring, not reacting emotionally to) could allow the so called "victim" to proceed in persuing his or her goal.
The interesting thing about this is that a variety of people who preach positive thinking such as Wayne Dyer as well as entreprenurial gurus like Donny Deutch and the young Farrah Gray all chose to focus on where they are going which requires that when they bump into an obstruction they stop and shift directions - sort of like a robot in a maze - until they find an open path that would permit them to move forward to their goal.
Victims (like me) instead stop at the obstacle and get bogged down in trying to get justice or fairness. Now that is quite a bog.
People in denial pretend the obstacle was never there.
People who transcend recognize the barrier but don't allow it to stop them. They let it re-direct them and keep persuing their objective.
This is a huge insight for me. I have had many pieces of this puzzle but I have never understood the whole picture nor how I could apply it to my situation.
It is not that my experiences in my FOO were not horrid - they were. They almost destroyed a human life. But I have been searching for justice, searching for that new parent who will bail me out of such injustices. I have seen myself as unable to do that for myself (learned helplessness.) I have long sought to be understood as though in being understood suddenly some floodgate to normalcy or functioning or acceptance would be opened.
But PR's point about never being understood suddenly opened a prison door that held me labeled VICTIM. I stood behind that door waiting, hoping, begging to be understood as though only in making that connection could the gate be flung wide.
I don't need to be understood. I need to take back that longing from others and validate my own understanding.
Another recent posting that completely caught my eye was about seduction. To mirror back to someone what they want to see in themselves. Boy that was an eye-opener. In so many ways. One way is that I suddenly saw how vulnerable we are to suduction if we don't already see what want in ourselves. We are so vulnerable to seduction if we are trying to find that person who can mirror back to us what we want. But also I suddenly saw that I have never tried to connect to people by giving them what they want. I have been looking for people who share my interests or who connect with me. Suddenly I get a positive aspect of seduction as being more one of empathetic - seeing others through their own eyes.
This leaves me to wonder how much empathy can I have if I am stuck in victim role? I suspect less than I have believed.
Finally, life is making so much more sense. Suddenly, I am beginning to feel stronger and more capable of navigating my way in life. The power comes not in having my victimization righted or justice being served but in transcending (not denying) the barriers and moving forward.
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SS - when I had that last fight with my NM a few weeks ago, I saw how implacable her vision of "others" was - how mired in concrete was her belief that only she counted, only what made her look good mattered. It was that seeing her discount her children in order to maintain a basically indefensible position that triggered my ability to take myself out of the equation. I really saw clearly this was her craziness, not focused on me, much as she would like to make it so. It has made life in that arena more bearable. I am not even going to tell her about my job b/c I know for a fact now that she'd only blame me - being laid off reflects negatively on her, in her bizarre way of thinking.
That's what did it for me.
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SS-these are important insights. When we get beyond wanting justice for our injustices. When we stop trying to prove to everyone else that our N parents are bad. When we decide that we will live our lives to the best of our ability and let them be them..............finally we strip ourselves of the victim role and allow them to be who they are...........without us........
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Wow, Kelly. That is profound - esp. "without us". Thanks.
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Victim Role - Boy I have been knocked silly with the insight that I am locked into the victim role.
I started to panic when I realized this. A month ago I thought I could access this "determination". I was tapping into that Olympic spirit and then suddenly I found myself mired down yet again. Not like I was when I was completely paralyzed but mired down none-the-less.
I know that some of that comes from that sabotage that I grew up with - the relentless - subconscious punishment that I received if I did something well or if I set my sights on an admireable goal. Of course it would have been utterly incomprehensible to me and irrational that my parents would not have wanted me to set goals and achieve them. That is what was so destructive!!! It was so irrational that I could not even see what was going on until very recently.
I know that I have overcome some portion of this nightmare but I have bumped into another portion of it.
As I began to recognize, over the past week, that I feel much more comfortable in the victim role, that getting out of that role or pushing forward into the clean up mode was exhausting just to think of it much less face it, then I began to sort of panick and draw back within. But as I analyzed it I saw that this is not nearly as difficult as what I have already overcome.
I can face down the shame and self-hatred now. And now I have a number of techniques to get at the source of this problem. Plus - I am much less reactive than I was even a couple of months ago.
I have come a long way and finally have the strength to push forward and make more progress.
Love to you all. - SS (time for a new name - overcame the huge paralysis of shame - thanks be to God.)
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Victims (like me) instead stop at the obstacle and get bogged down in trying to get justice or fairness. Now that is quite a bog.
People in denial pretend the obstacle was never there.
People who transcend recognize the barrier but don't allow it to stop them. They let it re-direct them and keep persuing their objective.
This is a huge insight for me. I have had many pieces of this puzzle but I have never understood the whole picture nor how I could apply it to my situation.
But PR's point about never being understood suddenly opened a prison door that held me labeled VICTIM. I stood behind that door waiting, hoping, begging to be understood as though only in making that connection could the gate be flung wide.
I don't need to be understood. I need to take back that longing from others and validate my own understanding.
This leaves me to wonder how much empathy can I have if I am stuck in victim role? I suspect less than I have believed.
The power comes not in having my victimization righted or justice being served but in transcending (not denying) the barriers and moving forward.
Gosh, SS,
I am in awe of your profound insights. It's like the valedictorian speech at the graduation of former victims. Awesome.
xoxox,
ann
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Ann3 and SS - you know that old Chinese saying: "Touch a wounded heart as little as you would an injured eye"??? Fits, eh, sugars?
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Hi Towrite,
I love the saying, but I'm not sure how you're applying it here, so could you explain?
xoxox,
ann
PS: I am sorry if I hurt your feelings with what I wrote on the job thread.
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SS,
Your process on this thread has really been an eye opener for myself.
I stood behind that door waiting, hoping, begging to be understood as though only in making that connection could the gate be flung wide.
I have been living this for years. I didn't even know how much I based my healing on being understood, for that would set me free. Setting myself up to fail, unable to take the next small step. Waiting..................................
Wow, now to accept that. Acknowledgement..... is the first step?
I don't need to be understood. I need to take back that longing from others and validate my own understanding.
Yes! Yes!
Thank you ((SS)). You have opened a closed place for me. ((((hugs))))
May your path to healing be strengthened by your persistence, and strength to face the hardest truths in ourselves. ox seasons
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I am posting this at the risk of being inconsistent - certainly a problem in this healing process. Consistency is a real need and something that comes hard to me. I am diagnosed with ADD and wish such a problem along with solutions or help had been know to me as a child. For recent years, shortly after I was diagnosed I have come to see that the hyper-anxiety that I have lived in has done much to exacerbate if not cause the disorder. I digress -
I was (briefly, very briefly) working on the incite of actually basking in the state of being a victim, taking comfort (surprisingly - real comfort) in being a victim, railing with indignant righteousness about the perps (mean parents, wretched brothers and SIL and less than loving husbands) but most of all finding great comfort in the passivity that has pulled me in. It is the pro-active state that is so profoundly difficult for me and yet only such a pro-active movement will get me out. I've been waiting for Godot the savior to transform me. Hello!!!!
Today I have slipped right over into addressing "judgment", specifically being the "victim" of judgmental people, specifically family. I live in fear of judgment, am paralyzed by judgment, am reactive to judgment.
Oh I think I could make the argument that Victim and Judgment are so intertwined for me that actually become aspects of the same problem. That I will have to sort out later. For now I am ready to move on. I have found myself coming up short in terms of generating a plan to move forward - still getting trapped and stuck. The stuckedness is no where nearly as stark as the paralysis that bound me for several years and my hope is significantly greater than those years I was aware of my paralysis. None-the-less, this "victimization" and "fear of judgment" are powerful aspect that lead to the paralysis and which still bind me.
I am now finding a way to reconize what I am dealing with and move forward with reframing the fear of judgment and short-circuiting and overcoming the old patterns of reaction to these fears.
Boy am I going to miss this place. The dialogues here and the personal dynamics help me in a way beyond belief to work through this stuff. I read something someone else has written and relate to it and get insight. I see someone whose struggles seem close to mine and see solutions to their problem that give my insight to solutions for myself, I see people who seem stuck and see myself in their issues and begin to see ways out as it is more obvioius in looking at anothers situation than my own. I am growing and getting vision and learning and getting much, much stronger because i feel supported and connected here.
I have seen my weaknesses and shortcomings mirrored back to me in a way that does not give offence but insight into how I might overcome those. I have received encouragement in things that I did not see as strengths until one or more here told me they saw such a strength. I have seen my extreme neediness by looking for support, needing support, demanding support where none was forthcoming. I have left at times and started to leave at times - hurt, angry, disappointed but too sick and too desparate to be able to truly let go.
Oh my gosh - the people I have connected with on such a powerful level. How I would give anything for us to be able to come together for a day and see how different the chemistry is in person from on-line or more interestingly how accurate the 3D connections and disconnections are in person as were on-line.
I no longer want to remove myself from life into that passive victim role waiting for rescue. I want to move out into action - paced like the tortoise - slow and steady - aware of when I slip into self-judgment and consciously working to work out of a position of strength, moving forward step by step, reclaiming life and believing that I will triumph and have a life victorious - no longer caught in the despair of the N FOO but living a life transcending the victimization of my early childhood experience.
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Hi SS,
IMO, it's OK to be inconsistent, you're human, not a machine. We don't need to be perfect, we just need to be.
Sorry about the ADD; yes, what came 1st: the ADD or your FOO which may have caused it?
I hear you: we are all waiting for Godot, one way or another, but I undertsand what you mean. Ain't gonna wait for Godot no mo!
I live in fear of judgment, am paralyzed by judgment, am reactive to judgment....Oh I think I could make the argument that Victim and Judgment are so intertwined for me that actually become aspects of the same problem. That I will have to sort out later.
Know what? I hear you judging yourself very harshly. Yup, when we are judged harshly by our FOO, we wind up doing the same to ourselves. Can you let yourself off the hook and give yourself some love? You are doing magnificently. We can't undo a lifetime of abuse over night. It takes time, it takes years. As we slowly heal, we are learning patience and faith. Please have patience & faith in yourself.
I have found myself coming up short in terms of generating a plan to move forward - still getting trapped and stuck. Judging yourself? Beating yourself up? I do it too. IMO, You are not coming up short. We just need patience, faith. You are on the right track, know that it will come when you are ready for it and that will be whenever you are ready for it. Believe in yourself & love yourself.
The stuckedness is no where nearly as stark as the paralysis that bound me for several years and my hope is significantly greater than those years I was aware of my paralysis. Yes, you have grown by leaps & bounds, you are not the person you were, you are a different person, a new person. Perhaps your personal identity has not caught up with the new you? Perhaps give yourself time for your mental image of yourself to catch up with the 'New You'?
None-the-less, this "victimization" and "fear of judgment" are powerful aspect that lead to the paralysis and which still bind me. Oh, yes, but, maybe if we stop judging ourselves (like our FOO judged us), we can just exist & breath & know we are doing fine as we are right now in this moment.
I am now finding a way to reconize what I am dealing with and move forward with reframing the fear of judgment and short-circuiting and overcoming the old patterns of reaction to these fears. Right on!!!!!!!
I am growing and getting vision and learning and getting much, much stronger because i feel supported and connected here. me too.
I have seen my extreme neediness by looking for support, needing support, demanding support where none was forthcoming. IMO, we were/are not extremely needy when we look for/demand support, but rather our need for support was/is normal,but our dysfunctional FOOs told us that this need was abnormal and shameful.
Needing/wanting support is neither abnormal or shameful, it is very normal, but our FOOs made us believe it was abnormal & shameful. SS, you are normal for wanting, needing & demanding support. Needing support is a basic human need. Humans are social animals: we all need/want/long for support. There's no shame in needing/wanting & longing for it. Feeling shame in wanting support is another f'd up lesson our dysfunctional FOO taught us.
The fact that our FOO failed to give us the support we needed was CRAZY MAKING. So,our FOOS made us feel shame for wanting support and then made us feel crazy when they didn't give the support we needed.
I no longer want to remove myself from life into that passive victim role waiting for rescue. I want to move out into action - paced like the tortoise - slow and steady - aware of when I slip into self-judgment and consciously working to work out of a position of strength, moving forward step by step, reclaiming life and believing that I will triumph and have a life victorious - no longer caught in the despair of the N FOO but living a life transcending the victimization of my early childhood experience. You sound incredibly mentally/emotionally healthy to me. Tortoises are great, remember, they win the race!!
Oh, SS, you sound great, you're growin like mid-summer grass.
xoxoox,
ann
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I hear you judging yourself very harshly. That is so odd. I don't hear it at all but I know you are right. I do hear it in other's voices that I have taken in but I am certain that I do it too myself as well. Really there is no difference because once I internalized other's critical voices they became MINE. I am keeping them there in my own little mind. Thanks for that insight.
I am definitely on a crusade to conquer that self-condemnation and to let other's role off my back.
We just need patience, faith. You are on the right track, know that it will come when you are ready for it and that will be whenever you are ready for it. Believe in yourself & love yourself.
You are so right. The negative stuff actually holds me back. Thank you for pointing this out. I am definitely at a place where I can focus on what I am doing right.
For a couple of months I have been aware of the "shift" that I can make - sort of like flipping a switch - to toggle between "victim" and "moving forward". This appearance and disappearance of this switch depends on whether I am "conscious" of it or not. I am doing much better at keeping this option in a conscious place. Your post here helps me shift some more things.
Yes, you have grown by leaps & bounds, you are not the person you were, you are a different person, a new person. Thank you. Your words are a gift of immeasurable strength and encouragement. I am much more able to take this in and own it. Believing this makes it possible for me to make yet another step forward up out of the pit of self-hatred and self-doubt and self-condemnation that I was dwelling in when I first came here. Thanks again.
The fact that our FOO failed to give us the support we needed was CRAZY MAKING. So,our FOOS made us feel shame for wanting support and then made us feel crazy when they didn't give the support we needed.
There is no doubt about that. I remember a dear and actually helpful therapist (with a national reputation) once said to me, "Perhaps you need too much." I can still feel the shock and hopelessness I felt when he said that. I saw it as a truth - that I needed too much. My reaction was, "What now - what can I possibly do if I need too much." Not a very therapeutic statement by him. That's for sure.
Oh, SS, you sound great, you're growin like mid-summer grass. Thanks Ann. Your comments have pushed me in a very good direction. They are a boost just at the right time. I have been a little blind to my own self-judgment but you have shone a light on some of it. They have been holding me back and now that I am aware of my own judgment I can replace it with thoughts that will propell me forward.
I am making great progress and getting such help from my friends here.
CB Thanks!
I just wanted you to know that I am being so encouraged by this thread and all the insights you are reaching. I have wanted to get involved in the discussion because what you are discovering is so similar to what I struggled through. I really appreciate your words. I am at a point where I am about to let go of my fear of feeling good about myself. My father so successfully taught me to NOT feel good about "progress". He could really destroy any self-esteem that I took in working towards a goal by pointing out all the mistakes and flaws and shortcomings. THAT is what has stayed with me. But that made getting to success absolutely impossible.
I will never forget the first time I heard the concept the outcome was not what was important but the journey along the way. I argued with myself about this and was so aware of how this ran completely contradictory to what I had been taught. I could see the point that if we devalued the journey that we would be devaluing much of life but I couldn't make the transition. NOW my life actually depends on valuing the journey - each step along the way and letting go of the outcome. Not because it doesn't matter but because the steps along the way are critical to the ultimate achievement. IOW, if I don't values the steps I will never get to the end.
I have this quiet yet powerful voice criticizing me each step along every path, "not enough, not enough, not good enough" it whispers. Well NOW I am talking back - loudly, "YES IT IS! YES IT IS! YES IT IS." That will certainly help.
Thanks so much.
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Perhaps give yourself time for your mental image of yourself to catch up with the 'New You'?
Ann! what an excellent idea! I've read it at just the right time. Thank you!
My old mental image of myself is based on the lifetime's worth of CRAP that was projected on me, inaccurately assessed of me, etc. Old verbal abuse, even.
I need an extreme makeover of my mental image.... need to replace the old crap in my head about myself, with what I know now, to be true-er of me. Little by little, it's been happening of course - but I hadn't quite visualized the "new me", how she acts, what her habits are... how she speaks.
I really needed a design/creative project! THANKS! :D
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Wowsers. This is a gift, SS:
I have this quiet yet powerful voice criticizing me each step along every path, "not enough, not enough, not good enough" it whispers. Well NOW I am talking back - loudly, "YES IT IS! YES IT IS! YES IT IS." That will certainly help. (http://I have this quiet yet powerful voice criticizing me each step along every path, "not enough, not enough, not good enough" it whispers. Well NOW I am talking back - loudly, "YES IT IS! YES IT IS! YES IT IS." That will certainly help.)
Thank you for sharing it.
love to you,
Hops
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Thank you, PR. Yes, I am re-vising/re-viewing the image I have of myself. I am a new me.
The negative stuff actually holds me back
So, true, SS & I am learning this in therapy: Trauma gets lodged in our brain & so we keep replaying the trauma over & over and this disables our brain from finding and fashioning solutions to our problems. So, when we get bogged down in negativity, we can't access that part of our brain (neocortex?) that comes up with creative solutions. So, being bogged down by our trauma & negativity leaves us feeling stuck,hopeless, immobile and all that bad stuff
xoxo,
ann
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CB your post has provoked alot of thought for me. It touches an issue that has interested me for some time - the critical point between passive healing and individual determination, active healing.
I could write an essay on the subject. There are so many significant aspects to this. In fact I did write a lengthy response and who knows what happened - it disappeared.
The debridement analogy is a powerful one. I am at the point in my healing where I must be willing to actually choose to go through the pain necessary for a true recovery. I am at the point where I must opt to do the excruciating work. I thought that having forged through the issues of shame that I was at the point of forging through issues of judgment but as I was writing my disappearing reply I realized that the issue for me is the fear and resentment of having to push through the mess I have on my own without support from a spouse, parent, friend, collegue. I am angry about that and filled with resentment - both attitudes that are like albatrosses around my neck.
When you wrote about "buck up" CB, I thought of my response while watching the Olympics during which I heard Michael Phelps say on more than one occasion that when people taunted or criticized him he was spurred on to swim even better. I knew in an instant that such criticism stops me in my tracks - it resonates and affirms in me my own parents' criticsm and belittlement and judgment of worthlessness. Why can't I flip a switch and respond like Phelps?
This weekend I heard Dr. Bernie Seigal describe an address he gave to an audience of neuro-scientists about the mind-body connections. Most of his audience were sceptics. He read to them a lurid passage and then asked them if they still believed there was no mind-body connection. Point made.
My mind creates a negative reaction when criticized. Phelps body creates a positive reaction. I have what is referred to in EFT language as a "reversal." I see my responsibility at this stage, because I desire to break through, to be willing and driven to experience the pain of "debridement" if you will in order to get to the goals I have for myself and my family.
I can do this. I do not need support of others - though I would like it and would welcome it but do not need it. I must be willing to walk through the fire and am at long last healed enough to have the strength to do so.
I DO NOT want to stay where I am. I have done enough work to get to a level where I can finally push through. I am strong enough. I can do it. I can root out all of my fear, all of my wounds, all of the hidden infection. I have the courage and the strength to do this. I chose to be single minded about this.
I have made significant progress slowly but surely during my time here. I have identified issues that were holding me back and gained ground in surmounting them one at a time and now I am at that critical mass stage where I must shift from the passive healing to the painful, painstaking determination to push though the agonizingly difficult stages left ahead.
The next process is certainly a bitter pill to swallow. I can opt out or I can endure the bitterness for the rewards at the end. I can look back and see that my entire life has been leading me to have the courage and strength to get through this most difficult stage ahead. I can do it and have chosen to move ahead.
Thanks for your post CB. I has actually helped me focus several thoughts and ideas. I came online today to write about overcoming my reactions to judgment but in processing the ideas in your post I realized that I am in quite a different and enormously more significant place than I had thought.
Pushing through the pain will be difficult and will take more dedication and discipline than I have demonstrated until now. I don't have a plan, don't know how I will do it, I only know that I will and that I will begin immediately.
Thanks to all for your help, your thoughts and your encouragement.
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SS: an image occurred to me this morning and it relates to your description of the healing process as painful - CB's abrading a burn.
Falling down the rabbit hole (of gaslighting, abuse) was painful ALSO; and getting back out will also be painful - but it's a different kind of pain; not immobilizing - empowering. Like giving birth - with all the positive consequences of that event.
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Thanks such a great point PR. It is so important to keep in mind that there is something positive as a result of this type of pain. If I can keep that in the forefront of my consciousness I am certain that I can push forward.
I will never forget that there was a time when I began psychotherapy that had I known it was more than a six week or six month progress then I would have never started it - but once I began - there was no turning back. That is where I am now - half way down the birth canal.
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I realized that the issue for me is the fear and resentment of having to push through the mess I have on my own without support from a spouse, parent, friend, collegue.
I can do this. I do not need support of others - though I would like it and would welcome it but do not need it.
((((((SS)))))))
Is there NO women's support group of any kind in your area? I doubt the Jr-Leaguers will frequent one.
Do/did either of your parents drink too much? Then there's ACOA.
Last night I went to my women's Covenant Group (a church mini-group). There are 8 of us. We've been together, twice monthly, for a year. There is such deep and real support there. We become known. We care and are cared about. We don't "fix" each other; we hear each other. And if anybody needs us, we're there. I just signed up to continue with them, indefinitely.
It's become such a rich source of comfort and connection in my life.
Don't you deserve that, in 3-D too?
love to you,
Hops
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Great suggestions Hops. I tried ACOA years ago. That was a bust - in great part because of some of the wacky personalities. But I am in the process of getting of getting a group together at my church of single parents. I definitely think that would be the kind of support I need. I never really thought of it that way. Who knows. So many of those who are interested seem to be on much more solid footing than I am but that's neither hear nor there.
Thanks for the suggestion.
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TT,
Thank you for posting this. I found Dr. Carver's answer confusing & I didn't like what he said. I think if a past memory or experience haunts us, we should look at it, name it, & explore it. That way, we remove the mystery, we see it in the clear light of day, we can accept it, own it, process it & move on.
The way I read his answer, I think he's saying forget it & with that I disagree. I think by forgetting it, it becomes the boogie man in the dark closet & we can't let go of our fear of opening the door, letting in the light, cleaning out the closet, throwing away the junk. Pardon my metaphors.
Thanks, TT,
ann
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Hi ann3,
Forgetting it would have never worked for me either. However, I can't help but admire a person who can suspend or make a conscious decision not to explore further if suspending doesn't add to the problem. Personally, I had to see it to the end.
tt
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Exactly, tt. I couldn't forget & let it go because then I'd never know what was wrong.
For those that can, they are lucky. I wonder how they do it. Like the letter writer, I tried to forget, but it didn't work, so I had to remember. bummer.
love,
ann
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This is very interesting, as for the most part it is me.
I visited and re-visited the past so many times to finally have my own spin on my present. I too have NCd my family
So I reached his point
We can have a happy life with a variety of medical conditions as long as we have a strategy to manage our symptoms when they appear.
I have examined my life (An unexamined life is a wasted life--Johnny Cash)
I have viewed it from so many angles that I (might have said this before) at the present time, I think my 4 siblings are hiding within their marriages, about our parents and grandparents ad infinitum.....and I might be the most sensible of the lot for examing and talking about it and seeking therapy.
I would n't talk to them seriously now, if they begged me--- been through my asking them, to no avail.
Izzy