Voicelessness and Emotional Survival Message Board
Voicelessness and Emotional Survival => Voicelessness and Emotional Survival Message Board => Topic started by: sKePTiKal on October 17, 2008, 12:12:48 PM
-
This topic keeps coming up in relation to other things, in several threads. I thought I'd start a place to tackle this head on, to isolate it from other topics (as much as that's possible), to really get at the why and how of the mechanisms of this debilitating remnant from the past. I can only talk about my experience with it - so everyone, please join in - again, no rights or wrongs here; it is different for everyone.
For me:
self-sabotage happened in lots of ways - choosing N boyfriends/husbands, belitting my abilities to the point of not even trying to do something I wanted (art is the best example here), limiting my sphere of friends & therefore, my support, limiting my activities to prevent the normal enjoyment of life, limitation... limitation.... limitation.
Why limitation? Why such passivity? I think, for me, the answer is fear. At the most basic level - I was self-limiting my life out of a need to protect myself - fear - from being the target of envy... jealousy... and protecting SOMEONE ELSE'S feelings by not appearing to "show them up". Such is the "duck blind" I built myself to avoid abuse... the prison. To disguise myself, duck for cover. I was completely attached to this kind of sabotage, because it worked - in that situation. I feared giving it up, even long after freeing myself from abusive situations. It was comfortable, ya know? The devil I knew.
My way out of that prison, was to believe that I deserved more; that I was worth both sides of life - the light, positive, enjoyable side... and that I was capable of managing the darker side, without being disabled by it. Not pleasant - but not self-limiting, either. It took awhile to get there. Initially, I couldn't even list 10 things I wanted for myself.
The other kind of self-sabotage I used was deliberately hurtful to myself - smoking is just one; the most recalcitrant to change. This kind of self-sabotage includes even my naval-gazing period of obsessing on all the hurtful things done to me - I was forcing myself to stay with this, hoping I could squeeze out one last iota of seeing - realizing - freeing myself from feeling horrible all the time. I was drawn to it like a car accident; morbid fascination. It made me feel "special"; unique; important.
This kind of deliberately hurting myself, was my "look what you made me do" - an attempt to lay blame elsewhere for the abuse I endured and suffered under... for MY FEELINGS. It was fed by rage, helplessness & powerlessness. Once I accepted and fully owned this... the power of this kind of self-sabotage started to diminish. I had to own, manage, and take control of those feelings... after all, no one else can.
Eventually, I learned that I'd gotten all I needed from this review of memory and emotion... that it wasn't necessary to keep sticking myself in the eye with this stick... to feel better. Well, duh! right?
But this was the hardest self-sabotage to conquer. Because of the previous gems of understanding that came from it, I secretly hoped that I would find yet more "treasure". All I found was a dead-end; it was all the same stuff. So why did I do it? The pay-off was that feeling that my story somehow made me special and important. Sadly... there are many who've suffered the same and worse than I have. In fact, my story doesn't make me special - but letting it go and engaging in my life and enjoying it DOES.
So, ok........ that's where I am with this, now. How about discussion about certain, specific things... the mechanisms of self-sabotage?
-
One, I think you are absolutely right about being driven by fear. I KNOW that's true for me. I know that's why I allow those tapes to run in my head: worthless, stupid, ugly, etc. You mention smoking. I think there are probably lots of ways we hurt ourselves physically. I went through a period of drinking too much, until I told myself every sip was a concession to what my NF told me I was. I also went about ten years eating barely enough food to sustain your average five-year-old. I still isolate myself. A good friend recently told me she'd stopped inviting me because I never attend her parties. I know people want to come here for Halloween (I get lots of kids) and I dread it. But I know I should invite everyone over. But you see, after all these years, I still feel SAFEST alone.
-
Trauma/abuse survivors need a lot of adrenalin.
Problem with releasing the past and being present with lightness is...
sometimes
life
is
boring
Enduring THAT, transmuting it into ordinary contentment...is a challenge.
(Which I am confident, completely, you'll meet.)
xxoo
Hops
-
gjazz:
I think what you learned about alcohol can be applied to your connection with people, too. In that, by isolating yourself, you're confirming that you're (fill in the blank)... whatever you were told you were by the evil one(s)... and I'm gonna bet, that whatever you fill in that blank with - it's not true. I mean, we become something we're NOT, to survive in those abusive situations. We can learn to separate ourselves - who we are - from learned behaviors.
As far as feeling safe: that's the big why for any number of self-sabotage methods, I think.
-
Hops...
I grew up in the midwest. Think cornfields as far as the eye could see and a society 20 years behind pop culture. Boredom was the background for a lot of truly creative people that I've met over the years... there is a lot of space & freedom in boredom for me.
... and when you live years from one crisis to full-blown chaos & back, over & over... boredom starts to sound a whole lot like peace.
Remember when I posted about smoking & dopamine? I found a study that said for some, dopamine also stimulated the flight/fight response area of the brain - just like adrenalin- creating great fear. This is one way, that I think nicotine addiction was able to create such fear about stopping, for me. (am I saying my brain is scrambled?? maybe.) Smoking itself, created the "fear"... which was just a disguise for addiction.
I wonder about adrenalin-junkies... and whether we can actually grow to LIKE those chaotic, crisis times... and when things finally calm down... if we don't feel that something is "missing" - hence the self-fulfilling prophecy effect... or people who create their own crises... I used to be one of those people.
-
I think there are a couple things at play in terms of isolating: one, I am a bona-fide introvert. Meaning, being around people drains me of energy rather than re-energizes me, and many of my friends are extroverts. I don't necessarily come across as introverted--I know that. So they just don't understand how socializing exhausts me. Plus, I had years where professionally I was required to be out several nights a week, which drove me into another life altogether. I despise small talk, and don't want to have to prove myself in witty little conversations over and over. NOT that anyone's asking me to, any more at least, it's that thing in my head: never good enough, be smarter, be funnier, be thinner, be prettier, be be be. I know it's there and I should overcome that, rather than retreating. It's hard, though, when I do my best work, and generally feel peaceful and content when alone. Sure it gets lonely at times. I think about dating again sometimes. But it would take a pretty independent sort of man, and a very honest one.
-
gjazz:
OK, I know what you mean about being drained in some situations. I agree wholeheartedly. I'm protective of my "down time" and my solitude - which is a positive thing for me. Sounds like it is for you, too.
-
Yes, but I do believe I've let it get "too easy." I think I've let myself take the less scary road, even when I'd have been happier reaching out. So I must adjust.
-
Phoenix...I am only going to make a few comments on your experience of smoking and the difficulty of quitting. Smoking like so many addictions that are bad for the body serve a no of functions. Smoking could be the acting out of different unconscious scenarios for different individuals based on their particular experiences. The most obvious to me is that smoking is the acting out of being hated as an infant or child as the addiction hurts the smoker in a similar but symbolic way. Another component may very well be an old unconscious need which has been perverted. For instance what comes to mind is the need for a mothers love that never came. Without any conscious awareness the smoker tries to fill this old unmet need for love and the repetitive action is indicative of the failure of this method, as it needs to be done over and over, b/c the symbolic action can never satisfy any unmet need. The real need has to be felt to be resolved. The struggle to quit, because of health reasons, becomes almost irrelevant to the very powerful forces of repressed unmet needs.They will NEVER go away until they are felt consciously. It's a perfect replay in this respect. We know also at the same time smoking numbs ones feelings and of course this will include the deep pain we feel. If the real pain/need can be felt consciously, and then finally understood consciously, we can understand finally that we are in the present and not continue to function blindly in the past. For many the addiction loses it's grip over time and they cease smoking without much effort....James
-
Dear Phoenix,
I have not been online for a while and this is the first thread I have read. It is so familiar it is scary. At present I am looking at the job market and am so aware that the jobs I am drawn to are not ones that interest me, but ones that I am overqualified for. I feel unable to apply for anything that would stretch me, though I know (somewhere) I have the abilitiy to do these jobs. I experience an overwhelming sense of fear - the fear that I will be found out, which of course covers the belief that I am not able to do it. In fact I have a voice in my head that says "you are not capable of doing anything" I am a very responsible person and this links in with feelings of whatever job I get I will be trapped in it. Then the panic rises, the thought of not being able to escape terrifies me. Of course rationally, I know that this is all nonsense. I don't have to stay anywhere I don't want but I can't seem to get past it.
Gjazz, as far as isolation is concerned this is something I feel also. I have many friends but am drawn to isolation: it is a safe place. I actively work at moving past this place and usually enjoy myself when I get out and meet people but my ability to trust others hardly exists. I had an experience lately, I went to a dance workshop for a day. It was fun and the music, atmosphere etc was lovely. I danced with a nice man who said a number of times to me "Trust the music, trust that I can lead and it will be easier" I just found it so difficult, it felt like I was being asked to trust my life with this man. Even though I enjoyed the day I came home and felt so emotional. My sense of vulnerability was too much to bear and I realised I trust no one which explains my distance from everyone. Few people know this about me. They see me as a confident capable smart woman who can take on anything and I feed this image, I know I do. And while I am these things I am also so many other things, afraid, vulnerable, untrusting, lacking in confidence and all of these feed into my self-sabotage methods. I actively work to not self-sabotage but sometimes the terror of being successful is to much to bear so I mess it up. I feel very small inside this adult body.
A few days ago I was driving and thinking about my thesis when I had the thought, anyone could do that. This is not true, anyone could not do it and most people don't. I hate that I discount anything I achieve it is an old trick of mine. I would be full of admiration and respect for another who achieved what I did but cannot hold it for myself. I cannot bear to recognise that the Ns in my life were wrong. I am something, somebody. The tie to play out THEIR script of my life is such an addiction: to be alone, to be no good, to fail. I feel I have reached another layer of these messages. I DO achieve and live a life that is satisfying in many ways but I feel like the voices that are left are the ones embedded in the core of me and so are more difficult to contradict. I feel as if I have moved through the layers and now I am at the heart of it all. This is the challenge for me, again I am experiencing fear, something I have not felt for some time. While going back to school has been a wonderful experience it meant that I was in the position of the "child" again, which I like except this time I emerged with a good experience and worked well. Now I must move out into the big bad world and still feel unprepared but wonder will I always feel that. Through this process I became aware of my fear of male authority, how I sieze up when a male professor works with me. I go to the place of HE KNOWS EVERYTHING AND I KNOW NOTHING, I cannot remember what is said and just feel like a quivering mass. The man is always right, in my book, and maybe this explains why I stayed in abusive relationships - of course I had to be wrong and it had to be something to do with me that needed fixing. It has helped me understand why I am unable to accept that I could have been abused by a man because men are always right! I must add that this is my process and not a reflection on men in general. This scewed thinking has landed me in such a mess throughout my life and created such confusion. This confusion brings me onto my not knowing the rules. By this I mean the rules that young children absorb in healthy families - it is not ok to be abused. My rules have come from outside of me and internally I have struggled to make sense of them. I have learned how to behave by mimicing others but am still confused about how to feel. This also supports the addiction theory.
James, I liked what you said about smoking. My experience of it has been that it stops the pain, loneliness, fear which translates into a huge struggle. I am not smoking again but feeling shaky about it.
And finally I have a desire to make a documentary which is possible as a friend has the resources to support it. Interestingly, I feel that I could do it BUT how could I be a film maker? Oh those old voices.
Thank you for this thread, for me it is very powerful.
xxx
axa
-
Axa: I feel the exactly same way and do the same things. And tell myself the same things as you say here: you can't do that, you are a failure, even if you do it, it's no bid deal. The only difference is that when someone else tries to tell me something (as you mention your professor) there are many triggers that make me simply tune him or her out. I won't hear their message or be taught by them--even if they are right, or they have something valuable to say. This I believe comes from tuning out my NF (what he used to call being stupid and stubborn) because I recognized he was trying to teach me some very bad lessons and said very hurtful things. So my instinct is to shut my ears.
-
Hi PR,
I wonder about adrenalin-junkies... and whether we can actually grow to LIKE those chaotic, crisis times... and when things finally calm down... if we don't feel that something is "missing" - hence the self-fulfilling prophecy effect... or people who create their own crises... I used to be one of those people.
I just finished reading The Glass Castle A Memoir. The true story of Jeanette Walls childhood with a mother whose mantra was that she was addicted to excitment. The father was an alcoholic with a brilliant mind. The life style the parents dragged their three children through was pure chaos. The parents decidedly LIKED the way they did life. The children left the environment as soon as they were able.
Here's a review:
http://rjsbooklady.wordpress.com/2008/07/13/sunday-salon-book-review-the-glass-castle-by-jeannette-walls/
tt
-
THE GLASS CASTLE is a great book. I've recommended it to many people, and you can tell a lot about them by their response to it.
-
Ahhh, CB...
It's good for you to have the keys to your own doors, cages, treasure chests.
You have to have the keys.
After what you've been through I can't imagine you'd feel any other way...
what might feel different later (or not) would feel like prison now.
I totally understand. You were married to a jerk and sooooooooo responsible
for six children, in such isolated, pressured, unhappy circumstances.
You've never NOT had a job! I don't blame you for feeling commitment-squirrely.
We discussed "broken promises" in my women's covenant group tonight, and I realized
I'm still pissed about marriage vows. How my early training was so pervasive that it has
been hell to release myself of guilt for divorce. Much less all the other things I've failed to fulfill.
So I just don't want to set myself up again, that way....is that a little how you feel?
love
Hops
-
CB,
I think it is connected with having been in a family with parents who were irresponsible and vowing I would never be like them. Also it connects with being a "good girl" and not letting other down as I have been let down. I realise that this is a ridicilious viewpoint as I, of course, have let others down, just like everyone else.
I think the "I won't get out" is interesting. It is not that I can't but somehow the addiction keeps me hooked in to the bitter end until I am nearly broken and I don't want to be in that place again. In many instances, a place of my own making because I stayed when I did not have to and I stayed when I knew things could only get worse. Does this point to a lack of self care, an inability to prioritise my self care for the familiarity of abuse? It does seem like that. I have become aware lately that I shy away from potential hurt and in doing so I shy away from potential joy. I do NOT want to live my life in such a defended way. I see that I need to develop a healthy trust in others, not a childish trusting but an ability to weigh up the reality and make appropriate decisions. I do not want to live in hiding, safe as it feels it will always cripple my potential but this takes courage and I do not have a lot of that left. And yet there is the part of me that is full of hope, hope that life can be easier and less painful. I am grateful to ageing as it focuses me on how time passes quickly. I look back with compassion for myself and a sadness that so much of my life and energy was taken up with rerunning the old scripts - now the thought of more drama bores me rigid. I never want it again. I guess what I am saying is that just because things were the way they were does not mean they have to be that way again. Maybe with internal change, learning to self care, boundaries we can go to the place of commitment in a different way because we are growing up and learning that we don't have to stay where it is unsafe for us.
Think I have been rambling but it is well intentioned.
Much love,
axa
-
Axa:
I cannot bear to recognise that the Ns in my life were wrong.
This is important, Axa - this realization and the statement of it. Perhaps, the mechanics of self-sabotage is simply us going out of our way to try to make those N's "right".... about us. We make ourselves what we are not for any number of reasons: fear of more abuse, mostly.
This, for me, was a defense tactic that got out of control. I used it where I didn't need to. Applied it to situations, where it wasn't necessary.
I was so, so, so afraid that if I believed in my real self - that my mother would come after me emotionally again accusing me of thinking I was better than her and rubbing it in - only because I was proud of myself and my accomplishments. So I protected her feelings by pretending to believe the projective identification - the (excuse the word) bullshit - that she told me I was. My situation was so extreme, that I simply wasn't permitted to feel my real feelings about what had happened back in 68-69. I wasn't ALLOWED to be me. I wasn't allowed to believe that I was any different than my mother... and what she said I was.
It was the uncertainty - could she be right??? - that was the worst. The emotional and psychic state I was in made me vulnerable to this fear. And without feedback from other adults - the emotional isolation that was simultaneously familiar & comforting and a shrinking prison - I had a hard time coming up with "evidence" to "prove" that she was wrong. Proving she was wrong was a huge risk, in any case - very dangerous, emotionally, for me.
Just had another example of this, with yesterday's phone call. She's somehow convinced herself that dogs shouldn't have protein because it causes bladder/kidney stones... so now, Iams dog food is "bad" because it's high in protein. I tried to explain that if it was so "bad", why are vets recommending it??? Don't dogs - canines in the wild - survive solely on protein? And then I saw it:
the same old trap. I was trying to prove she was wrong; she was irrationally clinging to her premise - and simply wasn't hearing me. I would only become frustrated & angry if I continued.... and then, I'd be proving her "right" about me, once again. I let it drop - and the surprising thing is, that this took the wind completely out of her sails. She changed the subject and went on to other irrational beliefs - but she did it without my participation. And gave up within minutes.
Because I wouldn't "play" the "game" with her anymore. My boundary becomes not rewarding her crazy ideas, her "ain't it awful" observations about my SIL - which aren't true; more projection I think; and also protecting myself by not indulging in the emotional sabotage - getting upset - because her delusions are simply not my fault or responsibility.
When we are allowed to have boundaries - and to maintain & enforce them... then it's not necessary to prove the N's right anymore. Because we are safe... and aren't so easily harmed, affected; vulnerable... anymore... and it's no longer necessary to "do it to ourselves" - maintain those unhealthy, incorrect, and untrue beliefs about ourselves.
Still thinking; more to see about this.
(James: thanks for your thoughts - but having already explored the symbolism of using cigarettes as the "mom" I needed a year or more ago... that's not the "answer" for me. Understand - I KNEW my mom was crazy and I FEARED her attention and care.)
-
I have not been able to read much of this valuable thread - way too painful. But I was working on some stuff this morning and had an insight that fit under this topic.
I realized that some of my self-sabotage is an unconscious pattern that was established out of a need for love and attention. The only thing that got praise in my extended family was success and that success seemed beyond my ability so I hoped and longed for help for my floundering. Help to me was the same as attention which =ed love. I couldn't get any of it - except negative attention. I needed help which was never going to come. I got stuck in needing help. Help and love were the same.
Stuck in self-sabotage waiting for help (love) to set me free - the rescue syndrome. Self-sabotage is like saying, no screaming, "Help me! I need help. Someone help me!!!" As though being successful will doom me to certain aloneness - self-sufficient means needs no help and therefore, because help means love, being self-sufficient (successful) means being alone, without love. Yuck.
All so convoluted, twisted and painful.
-
Ouch, GS....!! Yes, it's painful. And there are as many reasons for self-sabotage, as there are "us". (Forgive my use of "we" in the above post(s)... it's just lazy speaking/thinking; I know full well there are many shades to this one issue.)
One thing I know for sure, is that self-sabotage is a closed-loop cycle. a.) happens which triggers b.) thought or emotion and then reaction c.) occurs. At the beginning of my journey, this was as unconscious as gjazz and you have discussed. More than anything else, it was self-sabotage that I've been struggling to break free of all this time...
in my self-image
in my self-trust/self-respect
in my self committments
in my habits - whether physical, intellectual or emotional.
What I've been trying to notice, are the points in this closed-loop where a small change in my self can break the loop... because that's all I can control: my self.
I'm not carrying around a secret or subconscious wish to edit my real parents anymore. But, I'm still susceptible to these patterns of relating to myself - the old habits. Contact with my mom triggers it - and fear/anxiety - for sure. But, I'm seeing that she's not powerful/fearful at all - unless I give up normal boundaries. One thing that's having that slow, imperceptible affect on breaking the loop is to not allow myself to think the old abusive thoughts; to counter each of those old emotions with self-parenting... what I'd say & do for myself, if "I" was one of my own daughters.
The other thing, is the old habit of resentment - especially for my mom. This is one my most useless, self-destructive, and pointless habits. It's improved a LOT... but I still notice traces of it. Resentment is anger/blame turned on myself - because being angry at my mom is so fruitless; she doesn't acknowledge, understand, or even remember. I can't change my mom - no matter how intense my emotion or brilliant my tirade and logic ... the only thing I can do is let go of this emotion; be free of it - change my self.
and so far, the only thing that works here, for me - is to say to myself: this is a boundary. I won't let that old pattern re-occur. I'll be safe behind my boundary. Whatever is triggering that resentment, I'm beginning to see... is someplace that's sensitive, because of past boundary violations. As the resentment (and fear) goes: so goes the unconscious smoking. I begin to actually FEEL that it's a non-issue... has no control over me... is a thing (addiction) unto itself; and I can separate it from ME. Only Step 1, but the most important one.
-
Oh my gosh - PR. I so identify with the closed loop. I have been working on the self-sabotage issue today and so clearly recognized and bumped up against the closed loop again and again. I also completely connect with the resentment.
I haven't found the holes in the loop yet but that seems to be very important to breaking the cycle.
Thanks for this thread. It is a very painful thread for me and extremely difficult to read - that tells me a lot!!!
PS - Self-sabotage is somehow connected for me to a need for connection - a need to get the love and assistance that I needed as a child. I think when I make this connection I will begin to break this block.
-
Something happened this morning, that I think - not sure yet - might be my final breakthrough on this topic. More on that later.
I decided I don't know enough about self-sabotage - especially the motivations, the reasons - people do this to themselves. So, google & I are going to spend some time today looking for useful ways of thinking about this topic. This bit, boils it down to 3 separate, but linked things that function together...
In The One Minute Millionaire, authors Hansen and Allen state that in order for success to be achieved one must establish congruence. Congruence is when things come into alignment, but not just arbitrary things, three very specific things. First, your desire...you have to want it. Second, your belief...you have to believe (have faith) that you can get it. Lastly, self-acceptance... you have to know and feel that you deserve to have it.
They sound simple, and it's easy to understand the reasoning behind them, but this is why so much self-sabotage occurs. One thinks that they're in alignment, while suppressing a tiny niggling fear or question of doubt. Just one such doubt or a wishy-washy thought on one of any of the three key areas is enough to de-rail your success.
So how does one overcome the doubts and defeat self-sabotage?
When Desire is Your Nemesis
Explore if you've really bought-in to your goal. Is it your goal or someone else's? Will it make you happy, or are you trying to fulfill an obligation, taking an easy way out, or just not feeling 100% about it? A classic example of this is when a son or daughter follows a career path to please a parent, even though they'd prefer to do something different. Make sure your goal is truly your heart's desire.
Do you really believe that?
Wanting a goal and believing that you can actually achieve the goal are as different as night and day. Many people want success, but how many really believe that they can become the next Donald Trump or Bill Gates? It's not lack of desire, but lack of belief. Perhaps they are not sure how to proceed with the goal, or are unable to see how to afford the education to get started, or think they don't know the right people to contact. Whichever the case, these scenarios all work to weaken the belief system. Work on confidence building and add tools to your arsenal to combat limiting beliefs. If you approach your goal from what you DO have instead of what you think you don't have a positive shift will occur.
But am I Really Worthy?Do you ask yourself if you're worthy to succeed? Many people compare themselves to the previous generation. "My parents had a very small home and only one car. My spouse and I have a 3,000 sq. ft. home, two cars, 1 or 2 incomes, and a boat, so we should be happy." Why? Should you be happy with less than you could achieve simply because it is more than others have? Only you can answer that question for yourself. Perhaps there is an underlying belief that wealth is the equivalent to greed? If you don't believe that you deserve to have success and everything that comes with it, success will remain elusive.
CongruenceCongruence is the key to reaching all of your goals successfully, whether they are goals of career, personal growth, or love. Triumph stems from your inner perceptions. Getting to know yourself honestly and wholly can unlock the doors to the happiness and success that until now, you've only dreamed about.
-------------------------------------------------------------
<Amber: Jackpot! I found this next website which provides a list of questions, to help us address - face - our personal sabotaging strategies. I'm copying the questions below and will post a link to the page. Here's the gist of a way to understand attachment to self-sabotage:
We derive some benefit from our seemingly troubling behavior. That is, "symptoms" or "issues" can be construed as both "maladaptive" and "adaptive". At first glance, symptoms look maladaptive, but closer scrutiny reveals that in some way, the individual "benefits" from them. That is, in some way the individual is protected by her "symptoms". In effect, the "symptoms" represent a solution to a problem, albeit a far-from-ideal solution. >
Worksheet for Conceptualizing "Symptoms":
Maladaptive Aspects
Describe a longstanding difficulty with which you have struggled. Describe the ways in which it is maladaptive. How does this difficulty hurt you or hold you back or make you unhappy? What is its impact on your relationships at work, at home, and socially?
Have you attempted to change this difficulty? If not, why not? If so, describe the nature of your efforts?
In what ways have your efforts been successful? If they have been unsuccessful, why?
In what ways have your efforts been thwarted? How were they sabotaged?
Worksheet for Conceptualizing Symptoms:
Adaptive Aspects
Now focus on the adaptive aspects of the longstanding difficulty. As strange as these questions seem, try to answer them.
How is this difficulty adaptive? What are the benefits? Who are the beneficiaries? That is, how might lovers, friends, family, and coworkers benefit from it? How might you benefit from it?
What aspects of yourself does it allow you to avoid?
Who would experience a loss if the "symptom" were eliminated? Describe the loss. What would its impact be?
How would you be forced to grow and mature if the "symptom" were eliminated? That is, in what ways would you be forced out of your comfort zone?
How would others be forced to grow and mature if the "symptom" were eliminated? How would they be helped or hurt by the elimination of your symptom?
If you achieve your goal or eliminate your symptom, how would your life be different? Would it be more populated with people? More isolated? Busier? More lonely? More leisurely?
How would your lifestyle change?
How would your friendships be affected?
How would key people in your life react? Would they be pleased? Would they be envious? A bit of both?
What would your parents think about it (answer this even if they are no longer alive).
If you are partnered, what would your partner think about it? How would your partner feel about it?
What would your children think about it? How would they feel about it? How would they be affected?
As a function of this change, who would be more likely to enter your life? Who might leave it?
What difficult or frightening situations would you have to confront?
How can these "symptoms" be overcome and mastered?
<Amber again: OK... s'nuff for now... I gotta go think about this list of questions and feel where things "fit"...>
-
This may seem completely unrelated to the list of questions..... but I think my experience this morning will put it into perspective. I STILL don't have the luxury to time to spill the beans about what's going on... just yet.
---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
To forgive means simply that you refuse to keep hating someone. In practical terms, this refusal to hate is a conscious decision, from the depths of your heart, to give up your desire to feel the satisfaction of knowing that the one who caused your hurt will get hurt in the end. Notice here that the silent, secret desire for satisfaction keeps unconscious anger alive and growing and prevents genuine forgiveness.
Repetition refers to an unconscious process by which you essentially lead yourself into trouble over and over. For some dark, unknown reason, you so despise yourself that you continually put yourself at risk. And the failure to accept that this unconscious process has you trapped in its clutches leads to “victim” anger.
And what strange satisfaction maintains all this self-destruction? Well, it’s the satisfaction of unconsciously hoping to show the world how wrong it is. Like Hamlet holding a mirror up to his mother,[5] the person trapped in victim anger will hold up his own destruction as “evidence” that, he hopes, will condemn the world.
Thus you might hear someone saying, “So what if I get cancer from smoking? Maybe it will serve them right. Then they will see how much I had to suffer.” And so this unfortunate life will end, just like Hamlet, cluttered with death and destruction.
But unlike a martyr, who lays down his or her life out of pure love, this self-destruction has its deep motivation in bitterness and hatred, and an obstinate rejection of forgiveness.
When dealing with the “victim” anger of repetition, therefore, your only hope is to first resolve the repetition that traps you. You can’t forgive others if the real problem is yourself. How can you accept the ugly part of human nature if you can’t see it in yourself and if you can’t accept your personal responsibility for constantly placing yourself at risk? If you don’t recognize the repetition, all the king’s horses and all the king’s men—and all the anger management classes in the world—won’t save you from your own unconscious efforts to destroy yourself as you remain locked in the dark identity of being a “victim.”
-
Very profound stuff PR. I have only scanned it for now but am looking forward to reading it thoroughly several times later today. I have broken through one more layer of understanding what has been part of the self-sabotage mechanism for me. I wrote about it on Today's Hurdles.
I simply need to say how greatful I am for this thread and for all the things posted here. It is such a gift to walk, crawl and cry on this journey with others. I have lived this wretched life alone so long but this healing path has been populated with such heros and heroines as I have found here. Thank you - GS
-
I'm still processing all this myself, GS...
mostly in the light of today's discovery for me. Some of what I found interesting in my search applies to me; some doesn't. Some does to a smaller/greater degree...depending on the work I've done previously...
still "trying on" these ideas and deciding how well they "fit". I'm sure that this another round on the "circle" of healing; I've been here and worked with these ideas before... like I told James (maybe too quickly): I've dealt with that old anger... no treasure left to be mined there. I'm not sure at the moment that I was correct.
It pays for me to take the time, to see how this settles in with me, before speaking too soon; too prematurely and having to eat my words; take them back... because I was only seeing part of the picture.
There IS one more piece to add to the idea-stew: something I've grown increasingly aware of lately. Despite all my work and progress, to date - I still notice a tendency to be hypersensitive to external stimuli... and that my emotional serenity is too easily affected by external stuff. It's not nearly as debilitating as it once was - but it's still there. And it's more emotional than I thought... an emotional HABIT - rather than a valid emotion...
like a tendency to immediately catastrophize, jump to worst-case scenarios, make mountains out of molehills, or see the glass momentarily as half-empty instead of half-full.
like a tendency to pull within myself, like a turtle into it's shell.
And what I've noticed is that this habit is changing - in ways I'm just barely aware of. It's changing without conscious intent or effort.
Somehow all this stuff today is getting blended into "congruent" soup... some things, still, to face myself about - and can't do it right this moment. Impatient, I am.
-
http://www.guidetopsychology.com/anger.htm
I just needed to post - for reference - the link to the page that I excerpted in my last post... about victim anger, revenge, etc. There was LOTS to read on this page... some I've seen before... like the victim-anger stuff that Lise used to post. Still digesting...
There's been one big clarification, so far. I've always wondered why I was so desperate to quit smoking - and simultaneously, clinging to it - seemingly for life itself. What a contradiction, you know? And each separate motivator seemed equally strong.
I think it's because Twiggy and I - for much longer, than I've been actively healing - had our own separate emotions. Twiggy's emotions were unconscious to me, for so long. I've been assuming all along, that our emotions would be identical; that assumption, I now believe to not be the case completely. And from this perspective, I'm able to more clearly see what it is that Twiggy has been hanging on to - and needs to let go.
More on that soon...
-
Phoenix,
I read your last post and it made me feel so profoundly sad, I don't know why, I have no words other than I am overwhelmed with sadness.
axa
-
Axa - is that sadness for you or for Phoenix Rising? (You needn't answer here but I thought the question might help you get some clarity - if not - just toss - your friend - GS.)
-
Just wanting to share -
I am not able to even read this significant thread. I know that I have a block for 2 reasons: 1) it hits the nail on the head and it TOO much to take in and 2) I have been gaining significant insights and making big shifts and that makes this very important stuff overwhelming as well.
(Hope I have the courage to delve in when I have the internal strength. I so know that it is on point for me.)
Can't thank you enough PR for this remarkable thread - GS.
-
Ah, GS... no apology needed! I do understand. I fear I might've been less than "plain & simple" in expressing myself, too.
My process is a bit weird; I'm able to take in multiple inputs - ideas, realizations, etc - and then synthesize them into an understanding. It's not at all linear... and the "processing" of the understanding takes place on a lot of different levels.
Each of the things I posted "hits" an emotional or self-perception target that begins to adjust. Those targets do their own processing, reframing, growing - or not. "I" have to let them do their thing and be patient. For the duration - that means "I" am uncertain; my whole reality gets jiggled and shook up; and then, over time... things settle back into place in a "new" order. It's after the settling in that I'm finally able to see things in the new pattern and communicate simply again.
Axa: does it help to know that for me, it's not sad at all? I see it as the first REAL progress - not just mental posturing, trying on new ideas about myself - on this issue, that I've made to date. For me, it's exciting... the "end" of this wretched, boring self-sabotage loop is in sight.
---------------------------------------------------------------------
It was reality-shattering to realize that I was presuming too much, to think that my unconscious feelings were the same as my conscious ones. Reality-shattering and HELPFUL. Somewhere, either my unconscious self - Twiggy - or I were hanging on to something for dear life... and this something was malevolent... the hanging on kept the loop of self-sabotage active.
I had spent a long time processing anger. Intense anger. Dealing with the hurt, too. Like I told James... I "thought" I was done with this. But something powerful enough to keep me locked into self-sabotage was still at work.
I distinctly felt something release - emotionally - out of that loop during my dad's funeral. Something of the old feelings. Long story short: I hadn't fully acknowledged the pain/anger of his abandonment of us. Leaving us behind to endure my mother. I lived in the hopes - faithfully waiting - to be rescued someday. But I was STILL angry at him; disillusioned at his behavior. He'd been my hero for so long - and I was angry at him, for his behavior and my inability to reconcile his shameful acts with that level of dependence and idealization; I was angry at having my fantasy of him shattered permanently.
Angry enough, that I adopted his bad habits... to plague my mother... "you're just like your dad" (you ain't seen anything yet, mom....) and to make it completely, undeniably clear to my dad... that I could be just like him - if not go him one better. But, he still didn't care. His N-fixation was my brother. (Poor brother...)
This kind of anger fused into a fixation on revenge: hurt them, as much as I was hurt. THAT'S what is really holding the loop of self-sabotage together, emotionally. That, and plain old pavlovian repetition. Anything repeated often enough, becomes "normal" and familiar - the safe zone of self-sabotage.
But, it wasn't "me" that was angry - it was Twiggy; all this anger was unconscious. Remember: she was 12-13 at the time. Sure, she's healed a lot of things. (Yes, if she'd had access to a wise, caring parent - or other helpful adult - it could've been resolved at the time. It wasn't.) Even the anger has dwindled to a tiny spark... but there was this awful thing that she still wouldn't admit - danced around it forever - and it was this idea of revenge. Her phrase was: "Patience my ass, I wanna kill something!"
One more thing: Twiggy blamed herself for making herself an available target for the rapist. She never would answer me, when I asked if she was smoking at the time. I put it together like this: she was already smoking the occasional butt; it was a requirement of hanging out with the older kids her mom pushed her off on... but she was carefully limiting how many puffs... tracking them. Making a single cigarette last a week, if she could.
She'd already been traumatized by the fight; rejecting her dad with words and deeds; and then the terrorizing phone call. When she went out to Dad's truck to get the gun to hide it - there were cigarettes on the dash. Twiggy was so rattled she couldn't think. So she bought into the propaganda; the brainwashing encouragement to smoke - thinking it would calm her nerves. She'd never been in this state before. She needed something to settle her nerves; calm her down. And of course: the rush of nicotine from a whole cigarette affected all her senses - and she didn't hear the rapist before she could escape back into the house...
... so she blamed herself for being stupid; for smoking; for making herself an easy target. But of course, she couldn't tell anyone THAT part of the story, could she? Then, she'd REALLY be in trouble. And in the slippery, slidey, crazy months after - with dissociation, being drugged, gaslighted - she took on all the blame & shame for everything... because she knew she was bad - deep down - it was a sin, wasn't it? - to want murderous revenge on the rapist, to want to hurt the parents who weren't parents at all to her... "look what you made me do"... it's all your fault that I'm out here smoking...
... that was such a big secret, that she wouldn't even tell ME... and it's why she couldn't let go of smoking, even tho' she agreed that it was time to quit. Even after I realized, that the feelings of addiction weren't ME... there was still this strong NO - resistance to even trying...
As long as she tried to blame someone else for smoking - and not realize that even THEN, she was addicted and didn't know it... as long as she thinks it's necessary to blame ANYONE for that sad, sad situation and clings to fantasies of revenge and control ("I'll make you care - even if I kill myself") through this method...
Twiggy's trapped in the loop.
So, working on letting go the need for revenge. The blame-game. Reinforcing that only SHE was responsible for giving in to the addiction; only she can STOP. And I know she can stop.... and it feels good to stop. But it's going to take Twiggy & me TOGETHER to conquer the tricks of addiction; the seductive whispers/lies about how much we "need" nicotine...
... and this work has to take place within a time-frame. I've imposed a deadline. Rest of this week and next week. Whatever has to happen... CAN happen in that time. And it's because I care about Twiggy a lot; because I want to rescue her from her own misunderstandings, the lies/delusions that she thought were normal and I believe in her strength... that I can set and enforce this deadline.
Finally.
-
Whew. I have finally had the strength to begin to work through this thread. Right time, right topic. This is the break-through issue for me. What you Phoenix Rising and Hops, and Gjazz and Axa and CB have written feels like a group of good, strong, kind, committed friends sitting around a room brain-storming on one of the most critical issues of the day. This is a very comfortable feeling - to be working on this with you all. I feel strengthened by your presence and by being included in this group and this conversation. It feels empowering. Just the opposite of self-sabotage. That is very interesting to me. Wonder why this feels so powerful - just the opposite of powerless. Something important here for me.
Anyway. I have worked my way through the first page and a half before I had to rest. I have been extracting the meat, the essence out of the posts and patching together a page for myself so that I can distill the very core of what I connect with on this subject of self-sabotage.
I intend to crack this self-sabotage nut wide open, turning it inside out in order to release my true power and get on my path to self-actualizing. I intend to manifest a self-actualizing me in the coming weeks.
I have more work to do here - on this thread and am thankful to have such remarkable people to do it with. thanks to you all. Your friend - Gaining Strength (each and every day.)
*****
Oh my gosh PR - you are going so fast and furiously. I cannot keep up and you are not even posting. I am still back on post #20. So much incredibly good stuff. You must be on warp speed. OKAY - here is what I got, distilled down from so much good stuff - in your own words is the kernel of my imprisonment - Lastly, self-acceptance... you have to know and feel that you deserve to have it. and Perhaps, the mechanics of self-sabotage is simply us going out of our way to try to make those N's "right".... about us. The N message loud and clear for me is that I did not and DO not deserve those things I want. They made this clear from day one and I have unconsciously decided - out of "love" to make them right!!! - Whew! that is incredible stuff. Nothing new and yet the whole thing new. I am very, very excited about this and profoundly thankful to you PR for doing this and to Axa and the others for bringing so much to the table.
-
So we'll put the tea kettle on, put our feet up, and mull this over - together! :D
Couple things I know, now...
Each of us has their own unique, special (or warped) form of self-sabotage... not everything written, applies to everyone - at least, not to the same degree, anyway.
The other thing, is that I'm on fire with this... impatience is driving me... there is URGENCY coming from somewhere within that I MUST dive in head-first, tackle this issue head-on, confront/face myself as honestly I can - especially emotionally, and once and for all put this old prison of self-sabotage in the trash-can; it's hazardous waste and shouldn't be recycled. It's like a race between me and the self-sabotage "scripts". I need to win, this time.
I tend to digress back into my "story" again... working through this. I'm going to try to fight that temptation, except if someone asks for an example. It takes up space, takes time to write... and like I said above: that much - the story - is unique to me... won't necessarily apply to anyone else. That's not to say, though... that there aren't common mechanisms at work... maybe as a group we can strip those mechanisms nekkid, and reveal them for the pathetic (yet oh, so powerful) things they are.
At work, for me personally, in my self-sabotage are:
1 - misunderstandings or distortions of reality (i.e., ignorance born of lack of parenting)
2 - projective identification (mom) and self-blame; self-shame; shifting of emotions/memory to unconscious - anger, in particular coupled with an all-consuming NEED for justice and validation (not quite revenge; but close enough for the time-being).
3 - Parentification and denial of my own emotions/needs
4 - Self-punishment as a form of defensive disguise - see number 2
5 - accepting the abuse meted out daily - the emotional/intellectual programming of my self-image - as a form of defense
6 - self-denial (denial of "self") as a form of avoiding abuse
-
Allright - this is where I am - with thanks to this thread. (Hope you don't mind Phoenix Rising - I feel like I have moved in. I was getting lonely over there in "Today's Hurdles".)
I was taught overtly and covertly that I did not deserve what I had by virtue of being my parent's daughter. Self-acceptance requires that you know and feel that you deserve success and the object of your goals. I am participating in a closed loop system in which, as a child, in order to survive I had to participate in my parents value system - e.g. I don't deserve what they have and what they provided me.
SO, I set as an intention the undoing of that closed loop. Worded in a different form:
I intend to release self-acceptance and foster self-realization each and every day by setting up long term goals and daily steps towards those goals. These goals will fall in 4 catagories: Home; Finances; Work; Self/Family.
The daily goals will be minimally 1 and maximum 3 per catagory.
This I can do.
Big blocks - resentment. Resentment over being cast off in the servant role. Bigger REsentment over being shut out of my father's inner circle coupled with the inauthenticity of what that circle was - it was a lie, hocus-pocus, smoke and mirrors. Still trying to get into that circle. That is a major catch in my loop. Does anyone identify with this or have any penetrating insights that might help me?
-
The more the merrier GS! :D
Bigger REsentment over being shut out of my father's inner circle coupled with the inauthenticity of what that circle was - it was a lie, hocus-pocus, smoke and mirrors. Still trying to get into that circle.
My question, would be WHY? Which part of this resentment still holds you rapt & captive? You already know it was a lie... a figment of their gradiose, good old boys club. Why did you - do you - want to be included? What's the payoff for you, in being included? Then? Now?
Yes, I identify with this. I was never included in my Dad's world. Red-haired stepchild was more my role. Someone who made him uneasy; because he always wondered how much I'd really remembered. Afraid I'd dredge up the past, which would embarrass him in his "second life", as his pastor called it. I was firmly a part of his first life - only.
Important thing about this: if only I had focussed on what I HAD, instead of what I felt was denied... I might have been able to de-code all this, a lot sooner. Every coin has two sides... by letting resentment keep my feelings fixated & obsessed on that denial for so long... I never valued the flip side of the coin: the opportunities, relationships, and life-wealth (richness of life) that I had simply because I WASN'T included. (A blessing in disguise??)
Well, duh. I let that original wound exposed; open to infection... I smeared dirt into it... I participated - capitulated in the upside down; inside out relationship with my mother. Without my cooperation: it never would've happened. (Yes, I was tricked - with the "promise" unfulfilled - that by caring for my mom, she would care for/about me. I don't believe that anymore.) I fed the infection of the original wound with resentment, fantasy hopes, imagined revenge until it became gangrenous. Still trying to blame the people who should've been responsible for caring for me, with the original wound.
It's not possible to make anyone be or feel what they are not or don't feel. I can't change what happened - ONLY myself. Self-sabotage is a finite set of habits - emotional, intellectual, being-habits - predicated on an emotional reality that NO LONGER EXISTS for me. I can BE who I am, without fear of abuse... from anyone... and I don't have to hide any longer. Nothing bad will happen - unless I invite it... by continuing my old, worn-out, useless habit of self-sabotage.
-
PR - thanks for welcoming me and responding. I have to laugh at myself because I did not self-censor what I wrote. I was actually writing from someplace deep inside that was from my child experience. The inner circle was more accurately his inner heart and when I wrote that I am still trying to get in it was more that the child that I was is still trying to get in. That is what makes this stuff so very difficult - parsing out the difference between the child and the adult - between the past and the present - between the unconscious, subconscious and the conscious - parsing it out and ordering it - allowing it to emerge unsupressed. The longing was real and is real - it is a child's natural longing and rightful place to be loved and nurtured. I believed I was that is the complication. I believed that what I was receiving was love. I repressed my longing to be brought into his inner heart because I had to believe that I was even though I was cognizant of some HUGE dissonance.
Knowing now what I know does not remedy that profound, longing. It still exists. And that little girl still needs, longs for, yearns for that love and acceptance. I cannot just wish it away it is too much a part of me and its absense is the core of my wounding and the pain is indescribable and colors my every action even today when my mind knows that that particular human will never provide that which he was obliged to give.
-
GS - that longing, I know well. It all feels so sad. I've been "with" that feeling for a long time. But little girls - even inner children - can and do mature and grow up. They find ways to manage disappointments, realities of life - with good parenting. Yeah - the apportioning of motivation, emotion, and thoughts to conscious, subconscious and unconscious gets VERY confusing. It's almost easier to think of the little girl - growing with your care & guidance - a relationship between the two of you, even communication.
"Twiggy" has grown up a lot. Inner children are relevant to self-sabotage, too. That's where the original wound(s) still live on. They have healing to do, too. And their healing is vital to getting to the root cause... the original motivation to self-sabotage.
I think I got to my root cause, today. Almost by accident... but I can trace the steps, the thought processes, the re-evaluating and re-framing... and all of that finally converged into what I think is the motivation - the need and payoff - for self-sabotage. Again - I have to let this sit... because my ability to "think" things has led me down blind alleys before, not wanting to face something.
Basically, my emotional attachment to smoking - this last form of self-sabotage I am puzzling through - is because of life/death NEED to PROVE to my SELF, that the story Twiggy told me over the course of months of therapy.... is TRUE. At one point, I referred to smoking as a "smoke signal"... like an SOS... a cry for help.
The way this fits, is that:
a.) I was told that what I remembered happening - didn't happen. I was told I was imagining things, hallucinating, and making up ways to intentionally hurt my mom, because I was angry about the divorce. Hell - I wasn't THAT angry to finally have a whole night's sleep without breaking glass, yelling & fighting... you know? I did see the benefits.
What I was really angry about, was not being believed. And then, being forced to question my own sanity... because I remembered things that my mom said "didn't happen". SHE WASN'T THERE. How the hell would she know? And when she finally had to face the fact of my pregnancy.... denial and coverup; gaslighting.
b.) The other thing is that I had huge anger and abnormally intense fear; a normal "aftermath" set of feelings to rape. There was no logical explanation for those feelings EXCEPT what I remembered happening. I wasn't allowed to be angry; angry was "bad"... since I couldn't control or explain those feelings to my mother's satisfaction - she convinced someone to hypnotize me (I think)... and I was left with the suggestion that I could choose to "not remember" my memories... or have to deal with those feelings... by putting Twiggy in the "box": push it all to the unconscious.
Well - Twiggy never did anything against her will without a fight; trying to get the last word in. Since she'd been smoking anyway... I think she latched on this... the smoke signal... to get my attention, to prove to me that she and those memories were REAL. Part of this was also a harsh self-judgement: after everything that happened I was now "sure", convinced, that I was one of "those" kids - from a broken home... they all smoked... that there really WAS something wrong with me. Otherwise, WHY would my mother not let me believe what I believed to be true?
In therapy, I spent a long time dealing with whether people believed me. My husband, my T. Who would believe such an ego-damaging betrayal as making me question my own sanity - perpetrated by my own mother? I even had a hard time believing it. I excused it in a thousand ways. So.... the smoke signal.... Twiggy's/my SOS.... the breadcrumb trail of clues back to those memories... the NEED for PROOF. Proof = physical evidence.
I was a model student. I was ambitious, picked up skills quickly, responsible, social, funny............ and I smoked. It didn't "fit" with anything else in my personality. (Yeah, I tried the 70's crap; paranoia and paralyzing fear didn't make all that stuff overly attractive). Smoking became the "physical evidence" I needed all these years later - that those really awful bad things really DID happen to me. Evidence that there "was something wrong" with me... the hope and waiting for someone with "eyes to see" that would finally "get" my message and rescue me. Vindicate me; validate me; PROVE that all this really happened to me... to my mother; to me. Prove my mother WRONG.
I know that I'll never be able to prove this to my mother; when I told her I was remembering things about that time, she said "you won't be able to remember them 'right' ". Yeah. Right. And Iams dog food is "bad" because it has too much protein in it. Where does she come up with this crap??
Proving my mother wrong was the "revenge" I wanted/needed. I'm OK with being denied that. The key, was proving to myself, that all this was real... it really happened... and I finished all that up a year ago, in therapy. But, I'd lived with that doubt for so long - it simply took time for it to be replaced with trust in Twiggy.... in Twiggy I trust! :D
Now, maybe she'll let go and let ME deal with the addiction.
-
CORRECTION:
what I had to prove, was that I wasn't exactly like my mother... so I latched onto my Dad's outward behavior... and I hoped against hope that he would see how much I was like him... and rescue me. (One of my mom's lovely tales to me, during that awful time - was that my dad didn't believe I was his kid.)
I threw myself into this, as if my life depended on it - emotionally, it did.
And it had additional benefits: numbing my feelings, hiding my real self, and addiction/helplessness: pretending to be "just like my mom"... and playing the mirror to her self... so she would leave me alone. It also served as a self SOS... hoping that someone somewhere would see... and care... I mattered; but I wasn't allowed to act like it and care for myself... it would've thrown up an uncomplimentary comparison against my mother... her "secret" revealed... and at all costs to myself, I had to protect myself from that... by appearing to protect her feelings...
a perfect storm; a closed loop; all the steps in the rediculous circular thinking....
based on core beliefs that genetics, nurture, destiny, and fate were inescapable... more powerful than free will; intentional choice. That I was DOOMED to be this self-sabotaging person forever... thanks to another belief, that I somehow deserved this.
My Dad had only asked two things of me, all my life. One was to quit smoking. The other, was to produce art work. And despite my being "shut down" on both of those areas, up till now... he never abused me with belittling, or demands, or judgements for that paralysis. He never bought into any of my excuses about why "I can't", either.
I never really HEARD him... through the din of anger/resentment over being "abandoned" to life with my mother.
DUH.
-
There is a symmetry and perfection in your writing above, a perfection and symmetry in your acknowledgement of your father's two requests and your current struggle with smoking and perhaps with art as well. It is so clear, so powerful. Your work brings hope to me. I want to be free and to give life to that freedom that will allow me to mother more lovingly. Thank you PR.
-
Amber:
Smoking became the "physical evidence" I needed all these years later - that those really awful bad things really DID happen to me. Evidence
Yesssss! That made SO much sense. Really jumped out at me. When we hurt ourselves, it's like part of us sitting there cutting away...lbut if we voiced it, instead...ike Sojourner Truth: "Ain't I a woman? When you cut me, do I not bleed?"
GS:
I see you, one day, waking up burning with determination and curiosity -- to find out how happiness works.
love
Hops
-
Oh, Hops... there is yet more I'm discovering; stuff that's been right in front of me all this time. Stuff that I've written; said out loud. I simply wasn't ready to acknowledge the significance, I guess.
The key to unlocking this prison, has been working on separating my self from the act of smoking; separating emotional reasons (or excuses) from the addictive crave itself.
Today's amazing fact, truth, that's been there all this time:
I smoked to separate ME from the projective emotions/identity of my mother. I can't say DUH enough times... this is so obvious. But, if someone had told me this I wouldn't even have considered this idea as valid for me. I had to work my way there, by myself.
So... what I'm suspecting, NOW... is that smoking itself IS the "closed loop" of cause, effect & payoff/emotional benefit... It's the physical, functional manifestation of the emotional process of self-sabotage, in my case. And the ONLY way out is to stop smoking. At least, that's how I'm going to test my theory. Smoking is triggering - through repetition - all the emotional/thought patterns of projective identification, enmeshment, lack of boundaries - and the life/death need for boundaries... managing/hiding emotions in self-defense...
each cigarette is keeping me locked in this struggle. End of discussion. To end the struggle; I need to end smoking. The situation is (predictably) 180 degrees from it's appearance - the "normal" description of dysfunction, gaslighting, projection....
DUH-HUH.
-
PR - very interesting thoughts re: smoking being the closed loop.
I want to share my reaction that may not have any fit for you - take or discard as you will.
I have to bring into conscioiusness my act in order to make it a choice. My present struggle is to face my "resistance" (formerly kown as "paralysis") rather than to supress it, repress it by reading, listening to the news doing anything to avoid the resistance/judgment of the things I SHOULD be doing. Bear with me. My point is - that you may want to find a way to bring into consciousness your draw to smoke before you respond unconsciously. One that I love is a CBT 4 step process created by Dr. Jeffry Schwartz. here is a great description though there are other descriptions on the internet - just google Schwartz + four steps. www.hope4ocd.com/foursteps.php
Sending you strength and consciousness to stop that self-sabotage closed loop. - your friend - GS
-
Interesting! Those four steps are practically identical to CBT tips for managing a crave for nicotine. If you just substitute "addiction" for OCD... very, very similar.
I've been researching Alan Carr's method - the "Easyway" to quit. Again, a short list of steps. And to even GET to the first step, I need to quickly separate my thoughts & feelings... from those that were implanted, projected into me. Been at that now, for years, so it's just about wrapped up.
The first step is to make a solemn, totally serious, totally COMMITTED vow to myself - while smoking - that "this" is the very last one and then to rejoice in the freedom of healing myself from addiction. Not there yet; still bargaining with myself... still not "just" me... still sorting out the old mental/emotional projected crap & trashing it... but the hold it had on me is getting very, very weak. Each cigarette these days, is very conscious... very mindful... not at all pleasant: merely the feeding of the addiction. It is still also, "the devil I know"... still associated with comfort, relief (of the crave, ya know?), still shreds of the old belief that it's "necessary" to function as "me".
I do, however, have a firm deadline - this stage simply can't go on forever.
-
UPDATE:
OK - now I'm just "me"! :D
Ever since I've been on this board, I've been dancing around this "duality" in me... twiggy, my unconsious self... the role... and now I've FINALLY figured it out, because of a simple term: projective identification.
My mother injected me (like a turkey) with emotions, thoughts, habits, that she simply couldn't abide in HERSELF... and convinced me; tricked me into believing that her projected "self" - was me or a part of me. I was pretty easy to trick - 100% vulnerable and traumatized - and she'd never allowed boundaries between us, ever. At 12, I was just beginning to get a clue about this - when I was whisked away from adults I trusted enough to talk about such things and isolated... and brainwashed.
And what's fabulous is that the only EFFORT required to sort this out, is to simply know what is ME and what is HER - hello, basic boundary 101!!!!
Off to plan the timing of my quit now. My absolute deadline was Friday, this week. I have a very important meeting tomorrow - early - and I'm trying to decide, quit before - or after. After all: "I" will be just fine without nicotine... just as I was before she "finished the job" of getting me to carry her load of crap...
hell, she probably wasn't even aware she was doing this... isn't aware of it NOW and shouldn't even NEED it anymore, since her life isn't traumatic anymore.
DUH DUH DUH DUH DUH DUH DUH DUH DUH DUH DUH DUH DUH DUH DUH DUH DUH DUH DUH DUH DUH
I do forgive myself ya know... for being 12, 100% vulnerable, and a "good girl" who was taken advantage of.
-
Silly me - I forgot the most important part! I can wrap up this thread, now.
Self-sabotage was a 40 year struggle between ME and her projected self... I hated that projected personality or identity with a passion and a strength that was never yielding. I feared it, as well - during the time I believed it WAS me. That identity was sacred & holy - and it was life/death to deny it, reject it, or disown it.
Because to do so, to create that kind of boundary would leave her to deal with herself. My "job" - in being that self for her - was to find a way to "fix" it for her. Well, simply carrying it meant that she could deny it was her emotions/self that she dumped on me - right along with everything else she denied about me. She's melted, and toes curled up like the wicked witch of the west, with every boundary I ever tried (regardless of success or failure) to create.
Internally - because I really believed, beyond a shadow of a doubt, that her projected self was me - killing that self off seemed like suicide. At the same time - the "itch" and poor fit of that self layered over ME - was a constant source of agony: self-sabotage.... constant resistance... constant doubt... constant duality... constant frustration and confusion.
Lordy - was I ever trapped between a rock & a hard place!
Learning to separate smoking from my programmed times, realizing I needed to separate having a smoke from my emotional triggers to smoke, and finally realizing that all that "programming" developed as a result of how I managed under that un-me burden... that I smoked to escape to "me" and to placate her projected self... ameliorate the projected symptoms caused by taking on that projection... when it was the projection ALL ALONG... that "needed" something external to "be"... like a parasite seeking a host... or an addiction looking for it's next fix........
I'm outside the closed loop looking in, now. I'm amazed that all it took, was simply realizing what is ME and what is HER... and separating HER from my definition of myself. There is still work to do, practice, more details... but this is the big shattering of the shackles - once and for all.