Voicelessness and Emotional Survival Message Board
Voicelessness and Emotional Survival => Voicelessness and Emotional Survival Message Board => Topic started by: tayana on November 07, 2008, 11:44:23 AM
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I am now totally NC with my family, including my brother. We had a few brief months of contact, but my family claims I want nothing to do with them and I have brainwashed my son. My partner and I are totally moved and happy, for the most part. We have some issues we need to work through, but I think we'll deal with them.
My partner encouraged me to pursue child support for my son, which I did. His father had never been involved in his life, never paid any support, but he contacted me wanting to help us however he could. Unfortunately, he never really offered to do much until the state ordered him to.
He's looking at close to $800 a month in support, which he says he can't afford because he's starting his own business and currently living off loans. He would like us to come to an agreement so we can go to the court to lower the support payment.
I'm of two minds about this. On the one hand I'm rather angry that he wants to make amends and now is balking at paying support. On the other, I can certainly understand being in debt and not having money. My partner wants me to stick it to him. She thinks its very amusing that he's in this situation. I can't really decide if he's being honest, or if he's just trying to get out of the situation. He's talked to me several times about his debts, but at the same time he wants his kid to go to college and have opportunities he didn't.
I don't *need* the money to survive. He was also ordered to pay medical support, but I already have that from my employer and don't need it.
The more compassionate, realistic part of me realizes that he probably can't afford this, but at the same time I don't want to let him out of his responsibilities. I'm afraid if I come to a lesser payment, my partner will be upset with me for caving, but I'd rather have a fraction of the money to put away for my son than nothing at all, plus I don't necessarily want to ruin someone's life for vengenance.
Any ideas?
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It's good to hear from you Tay! Missed you!
How much can he afford? do you know? I don't see why you couldn't work out a temporary reduction in support, until his business gets going. But then, that could be a very long time in this economy. And the question would be - who decides when he can afford more?
Sounds like the bigger issue isn't dollars & cents, though. I've never quite understood the emotional aspect of child support for some people... even my self as a single-mom. It's not about vengence. It's not punishment for fatherhood. It's simply a responsibility to financially support a child and provide for their future.
I think I'd have to have a boundary with your partner about this topic.
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Boy have I missed you. I really have wanted someone to talk to who understands raising an only child of great needs. But this is about you.
This is my reaction based on what I read. Part of the issue is how the courts in your area work. Here the court orders are VERY difficult to change but not always enforced. And my thoughts are based on how the family courts work here. Don't get the change made but don't put demands on his complete fulfillment of the monthly payment. Accept a partial payment from him for now while he is struggling financially but don't put that in writing in any form that he could bring to court later.
I think your partner must not put demands on you about how you make agreements with your son's father. That is beyond your relationship and I encourage you to draw that boundary.
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My partner and I are having some issues over control. She has a tendency to be a control freak and then accuses me of being the one who is controlling. She tells me all the time she's scared of me, but this is a totally different issue.
We can have a hearing to change the order, but it will take several months to schedule. If we go to the hearing with a mutual agreement, the court should change it without a problem.
I am leaning toward being lenient with him, because he has seemed very sincere in his efforts. Unfortunately, I'm not a trusting person, so he's going to have to work pretty hard to earn my trust.
My partner thinks it's hilarious that he's in this situation. I don't see anything funny about it. I feel kind of guilty for ruining someone's life over money, especially when I had a similar issue of my own. Papa is willing to start paying me before he has been ordered to. he'd asked me to come up with an amount I felt fair, which I did, but I told my partner nothing about this conversation with him.
I'm not happy with her regarding this issue and several other things. I've talked to my therapist about this, but I don't seem to get anywhere talking to her.
If you want the story, I'll tell you.
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You're not getting anywhere with the therapist or partner? That wasn't clear to me.
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I'm not getting anywhere talking to my partner. All of the problems seem to be mine, not hers. When I try to talk to her, one of two things happens, either she bursts into tears and tells me I'm making her seem like a jerk, or else it erupts into a fight.
She's been working nights for the last six weeks or so, so I've been doing everything around the house. It wasn't so bad for a few weeks, but then she was always too tired to help. I could never do anything at lunch because that was our "cuddle time." Then I finally was so overwhelmed that I tried to tell her how I was feeling, and I was told I was making her out to be a big jerk. Eventually, things erupted into a shouting match, where she told me I hadn't done anything for the last 8 weeks and she finally decided that I needed to, even though I can remember a single night I've come and just did "nothing." Usually she would get upset when I wanted to do house stuff, and then she would fill our weekends up, so I never had time to get caught up. She claims she asked if I wanted to do things, and I just ignored her, but I'm not sure if she really asked.
So during our fight she told me I got to spend 3 hours with my kid every night to which I responded that no, I got to spend 3 hours cleaning and doing laundry. She told me the house still looked like sh**, then after she cooled off said she didn't mean that. I've been trying to get things done ever since she started this other job, but apparently it's not enough. She yelled at me because I don't like charts and lists, and that I said she couldn't do them. I never said she couldn't, on this I'm absolutely certain.
We worked things out, but I still have some nagging doubts. I'm not quite sure what do. My therapist sees a lot of controlling behavior, and tells me she doesn't see me as controlling. My partner tells me I'm manipulative and controlling and I'm just like my mom. That hurt most of all. I've been reading about co-dependency and I see a lot of those traits in our relationship. My partner has always had my role of being the breadwinner, but this time the tables are turned. I'm the one taking care of everyone, not her, and she doesn't like that. She has some jealousy issues going on, and I don't know how to address those.
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HI Tay!
I'm sorry it's because of painful things you've popped in, but I'm so glad to hear you.
I'll be short and sweet, you know I'd be longwinded and delicate if I had the hours.
Here's what I think, hon:
1) You're nothing like your mother and that is a very very low blow.
2) BRAVO to you for going NC with your family.
3) Your partner/gf is NOT family yet. It's still a relatively new relationship and she is not sounding very mature. Shouting matches can last a lifetime and that's the last thing you need for yourself or your son. And you don't need to be voiceless in the relationship, either.
4) I agree she's controlling.
5) It is absolutely none of her business what arrangement you make with your son's father. It is, in fact, extremely disrespectful and boundary-bashing for her to stick her nose in. You may have shared your uncertainties with her so she feels entitled to comment. But I think you two are in dire need of some communciations training. Laughing at him, at your feelings about the situation, is the opposite of support.
6) Support, at the least emotional support, is what we find partners for.
7) It's so good you're in therapy. Trust your growth there.
8) I agree with GS...don't change the legal order but if you want to reduce his child support a couple hundred on a temporary basis, I would do it INFORMALLY, but in a letter. (Ask a lawyer about this...it will be totally worth it.) You don't know what the future will bring, and your son's financial security is more important than his father's belated self-interest. Yes, he may be struggling. But no, you don't have to compensate for that and your son will be more and more expensive as he gets older. So don't change the legal order. And ask a lawyer how you should handle an interim informal reduction -- you want to be CERTAN there are no permanent consequences from giving him a break for now.
9) Little boys don't cost much to raise. Adolescents who needs clothes, then a car, and a good education, and hopes for the future...cost a LOT. Even if you were socking away every cent of that $800/month for his college, and not needing it for month-to-month groceries, you would be doing the right thing for your son, imy. So whatever compromise you need to make, put your son first, and your compassion for his father second. It's just a law of mother nature (emphasis on mother).
love to you,
Hops
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Tayana - I've been away for the weekend and just returned. I popped in to see what has been posted over the weekend but don't have much time right now. I am posting to say I am very interested in what you are going through and want to think about what you have written carefully before I post. I will be back to post later. Meanwhile I amthinking of you and sending you my heartfelt support.
your friend - Gaining Strength
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I agree entirely with Hops' post. Anything I said would repeat what she wrote. I see definite red flags. I would hope your partner understands that your son is the most important thing in your life, and part of the reason you have been able to make so many positive changes. His father should be paying support, and I understand that might stretch his money, but he did make a child with you.
Tay, is there any way you can take a break for a while from your partner and take a good look at the situation form afar??? It would help to clarify the situation if you are not in the middle of it. I think it sounds like you are doing a ton to make the relationship and your family work. Do you really want M to be exposed to more drama????
Lots of love,
Beth
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Beth, I can't really take a break. The most break I get is at night when she's working. She lives with me, and if I suggested a break she would take that as a sign of rejection.
Okay so here's the whole thing, and I guess why I can't sleep anymore. It's 1 am. I'm exhausted, and I just can't bring myself to sleep. My mind just keeps going and going and going.
I had one dog when we met, a little boston terrier. Ever since we met, she's been jealous of my dog. She didn't like for me to pet him or talk about him or play with him when she was around. She always complained I loved the dog more than her. Then I got a second dog, and all she would do is talk about how I kept talking about "my dog" or "M's dog." I hadn't gotten to the stage where they were "our dogs." I still hadn't gotten to the level where I was thinking in terms of "we," even though she seemed to think I was the love of her life.
Things were wonderful for a while. I was NC with my family when I bought and moved into my house. I had no help except for my GF, and then she lost her job. I was so overwhelmed with the house, moving, school, and work, that she decided to give me a bit of a break and help me do some of thing painting and things around the house, which she did.
Unfortunately, I started discovering that she only likes things done her way. She wouldn't let me help, or if I did help she was get "frustrated" at me because she wasn't giving clear instructions and I didn't know what I was supposed to do. She claims that I just stand there waiting for her to tell me what to do, but she doesn't ever tell me what she has in mind. Anytime she gets mad, her solution is just to storm off and say nothing, so I don't know where she is or anything. She doesn't say she needs to cool down. And if she doesn't do that, then she starts telling me she's scared of me and crying and telling me she's worthless. She has a complex because I'm the bread winner, so she feels like she needs to take over everything else so as not to "stress me out."
A month after we moved into the house, she decided she wanted her own dog. I can legally have 3 in my city. So she adopted cattle dog that needs lots and lots of exercise, is hyper, has no manners, etc. The very first thing he did was attack my dog. I wanted to get rid of him then, and she took him to the shelter, but couldn't give him up because they were going to put him down. We agreed to work with him, but he's still unruly after several months. He still attacks my dog, but her attitude is that mine always deserves it and starts it. We have totally different attitudes about this.
She got us involved in an animal rescue, and this has only added to the stress. Now I have a rotating supply of pups. Currently I have sixteen dogs. I don't want that many. My house feels like it has turned into a shelter. I spend hours cleaning, but she complains that the house still looks like crap. She doesn't really help out, but she tells me she spends the whole day working. She's currently babysitting kids, only 2, and she has given up finding others. In the afternoons when they go to school she takes a nap because she has to get up so early. I understand that watching kids is hard work. I empathize with that, but she seems to think I do nothing at my job but play. So when I say I'm tired after I come home, she doesn't believe me. Instead I spend more time working at home. By the time, I get ready for bed, I'm exhausted, or else I'm so stressed out I can't sleep, like now.
So, she accuses me of doing nothing. She says she's decided that I should do everything since she was doing it all before. Until she started this new job, I was doing all of the yard work when I got home from my job. I didn't get to play with my dogs or my kid or anything else. I had grass to mow. Landscaping to redo, and I now have half dozen projects that won't be finished until spring. It's getting too cold to do them now.
With M, she wants to be "mom." At one point, she was totally excluding me from stuff at M's school, unless it was something he'd done wrong. She was signing his assignment book, etc, and I just felt excluded. When I said something she was very offended, and that I didn't want her to be involved. It wasn't that I didn't want her involved, or want her help, I just didn't feel like I was being included. In fact, I felt like she was taking over, and I just wanted to feel like we were a team, not a pair of individuals. Of course, when I say anything, she just makes me feel guilty because of all the stuff she's doing, but apparently, she doesn't feel I contribute much of anything, other than a paycheck.
She keeps saying she's going to get her teaching license. I told her I had the resources to pay for it. I told her to let me know how she wanted to do it. She never did. She brought it up again a few days ago, and I said I can put it on a credit card if you wnat to pay it all now or let me know if you want to pay it in increments and I'll budget for it. She made no committement, in fact, it seemed like she felt like I'd just told her no. What she makes at her two jobs makes little contribution to the overall expenses of my house. I just got my real estate tax bill, and she was dismayed that I had to pay that. I'd told her before I was expecting that. She just couldn't believe it, and was convinced some mistake had been made.
I'm almost to the point I wish I was single again, no matter how I feel about her. Anytime I express doubts, then she starts begging and saying how afraid she is that I'm going to leave her because I'm the best thing that ever happened to her.
I've talked to my T about it, and when she was going to the T with me, it seemed like things were good. Now, I just feel like nothing I do pleases her. When I try to tell her that, then she says I'm generalizing and she feels like a jerk. She's done nothing but act "frustrated" and snipe at me for the last six weeks, because apparently I don't notice the effort she's making. She says she did this other job for me, even though I told her to do it, if she wanted to. What she makes at the job, makes no difference budget wise.
When I've tried to write at home, then she's offended because I'm not paying attention to her.
I'm not quite sure what I feel right now. I still love her, especially when she's being the person I first met, but I don't like her little mood swings that she blames on being tired and "frustrated."
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Dear Tayana
I think all you can do is look at your part in it. We can't change another person no matter how much we want. Our part is all that is open to us. Ami
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I don't think a time of crisis and extreme stress and pain is a time to "look at your part in it." It is a time to receive support and encouragement.
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I guess for me, I tend to do that, for myself, but maybe it is not the best for other people ,GS. It could be advice for the back burner. I understand that. Ami
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Oh Tay,
I am afraid you traded your Nm for someone almost as difficult. And it must have been hard to see because you were feeling accepted and loved (although the love may have come more from your side and through rose-colored glasses). When I said take a break - I meant a REAL break. I mean to separate for a while and get a look at things. I know this would be a rejection of sorts, but you need to get a clear mind about the situation. Your relationship sounds too much like the N relationships described on this board. She is VERY controlling and chooses to act in a way that is detrimental to building the healthy life you set out to have.
It would not be a bad idea to consider being single again. The relationship has moved VERY fast, I think. With my husband, we did not enmesh ourselves so fully for quite a while. And we were cheery in the beginning - it was only later that we needed to start working out how our house would be. I have read that relationships that are healthy and happy often start out easy and loving.
I hope this isn't too harsh, but I really care about you and want to see you and M happy.
Love,
Beth
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Beth,
It's not harsh. I sort of feel the same. Deep down, that is what I want. I just feel bad for asking. I thought about looking for a retreat or something that I could just get away for a few days, just to see how she would react. The relationship has moved faster than I'm really comfortable with. I've really been pushed along, and I don't like it. She wants me to go to her family's home for Christmas, but I don't really want to. I'm pretty bummed about the holidays in general, and I'd like to make some traditions of my own, instead of being thrown into hers. Not to mention I'm not really sure we can afford it. She keeps telling me to find someplace for the dogs to go, but the affordable places I find, she doesn't like for one reason or another. I'm afraid she'll decide to ask our neighbors to watch them again and leave them outside. Two of the dogs can't tolerate cold. She has a nasty habit of waiting until the very last minute and then blaming me for not making a choice. This time I asked her to call places, but she never has. I even asked a co-worker, who's sister is a vet, what place would be good. I asked her to call and she didn't. She seems to think I can do whatever I want at work.
My best friend lives 700 miles away. I had a serious crush on her for years. More than a crush really. We are very much alike, both in habits and personality. She told me much the same thing you just said.
GF's attitude about my family is that they aren't worth the dirt on my shoes. While I agree with that to an extent, I was also pushed into NC. She even wrote my parents a letter, without telling me, explaining why I was NC. I'm starting to doubt some of the things she tells me. I even told her that, and then she got upset because I didn't trust her. I did a lot of giving up of things when we moved in together. I gave up a lot of things I really liked because she didn't care for them. I tried to compromise on arrangement of furniture and styles to accomodate her interests. Yet, she just tells me I like everything my way and have no idea what compromise is.
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Hi Tayana,
How about couples therapy? But, I think you wrote that you both went to your T?
Sorry to say it, but agree that Beth may be right as far as trading in your NM for someone almost as difficult. My fear of doing that has left me gun shy with relationships. I'm afraid of getting involved with an N. But, maybe she isn't an N?
I think working with your T on all these issues is a good way to go. Try to get some rest.
xoxo,
ann
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Ann, I don't think she is an N. She is very controlling, emotionally needy, and overbearing. I do see a lot of BPD traits. She has her little rageful moments, and then she goes back to being sweet. I'm just not sure I can handle the ups and downs.
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I sort of feel the same. Deep down, that is what I want. I just feel bad for asking. I thought about looking for a retreat or something that I could just get away for a few days, just to see how she would react. The relationship has moved faster than I'm really comfortable with. I've really been pushed along, and I don't like it.
She even wrote my parents a letter, without telling me, explaining why I was NC. I'm starting to doubt some of the things she tells me.
Yet, she just tells me I like everything my way and have no idea what compromise is.
Talk to your T about this stuff & see if you can reach a conclusion about your relationship.
Please be careful about the 700 mile away friend. We don't want to jump from frying pan into fire.
xox,
ann
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Sorry to hear about potential BPD because dealing w/ a BPD can be exhausting.
Hope your T can guide you as to how to deal with her. Please take care of yourself.
xoxo,
ann
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((((((((((((((((Tay)))))))))))))
You are such a great person. Just ask yourself if this is want you want, really want, as a longterm relationship for your life. We only get to do this all once, and we need to be happy while doing it.
It is great that you are sorting things out and taking care of the situation before it goes too far. I think you will be able to handle everything once you make up your mind what exactly you want and are willing to deal with.
Love, Beth
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Oh Tay,
I am afraid you traded your Nm for someone almost as difficult. And it must have been hard to see because you were feeling accepted and loved (although the love may have come more from your side and through rose-colored glasses). When I said take a break - I meant a REAL break. I mean to separate for a while and get a look at things. I know this would be a rejection of sorts, but you need to get a clear mind about the situation. Your relationship sounds too much like the N relationships described on this board. She is VERY controlling and chooses to act in a way that is detrimental to building the healthy life you set out to have.
It would not be a bad idea to consider being single again. The relationship has moved VERY fast, I think. With my husband, we did not enmesh ourselves so fully for quite a while. And we were cheery in the beginning - it was only later that we needed to start working out how our house would be. I have read that relationships that are healthy and happy often start out easy and loving.
I hope this isn't too harsh, but I really care about you and want to see you and M happy.
Love,
Beth
Dear Beth
I LOVE to hear about your relationship with your H! Ami
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Tayana,
I just wanted to say that as we recover & make our way out of Ndom, there are bumps in the road and unfortunately, we usually don't walk a straight line to a healed, happy & healthy life. It's a journey & a process.
You have come soooooooooo far and grown soooooooo much & just I want to applaud you for that. :D So, no matter how it turns out with your partner, I hope you celebrate your own growth and are kind to yourself.
xoxo,
ann
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It's a journey & a process.
It sure is, Ann. I have so much damage in myself before I can even negotiate a relationship. Ami
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Oh Tay... I got really busy and had to go deal; didn't want you to think I just ran off!
I can so totally relate to this:
Usually she would get upset when I wanted to do house stuff, and then she would fill our weekends up, so I never had time to get caught up. My hubby does exactly the same thing to me - EVERY weekend. I guess I need to "just say no" and do what's important to me, more of the time.
As I read further about the situation: how in the world are you expected to keep things "picture perfect" with 3 dogs (much less more... untrained... potentially dangerous)??? I have 3 cats & a dog and it's a constant battle to just keep the floors clean!
And I also see the BPD behaviors... that rang a big loud bell with me. Make your life miserable, blame you for it, then weep and whine out of fear that you'll leave her/abandon her. That's a no-win situation, in my book. You're being manipulated again.
Hops' points - while brief - had a ton of good advice there. The only thing I'd suggest - if someone already hasn't - is that you lay out the situation for your T just the way you have for us, and start working through what YOU want in all this and what that might mean. I don't think you're the bad guy in this story, AT ALL.
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Tayana - you are getting a lot of support here. That makes me so happy and it feels good to me to see a group rally behind you or anyone of us. I think that the chaos she is creating makes it difficult for you to step back and gain some objectivity. She is creating chaos and just when you try to do something about it she blames you and your old stuff (I still do this) gets triggered and you buy into her criticism of you.
I am most worried that you have gotten in a place where your main concern is about her welfare rather than your own and your son's. She has gotten you all twisted up that way. I know b/c I have lived it as well. That is why I am so glad you have this place where people do care about you and are able to support and encourage you.
I know you are terribly concerned about her well being but you cannot sacrifice yourself and your son b/c of her. you just can't.
Thinking of you - GS
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Sorry, I was unable to reply yesterday. I had the day off, and didn't want to post while H was around.
I am back at work today, my refuge, where it's quiet and no one makes comments about the piles on my desk.
Ann, thanks for your support. She is supposed to go to my next appointment with T with me. I'm sure that will be a wonderful time, since she always takes over the session and tells my T all of my faults.
Amber, my evenings go something like this. Get home from work, fix something for dinner. Shuttle M whereever he needs to go. Come home, clean up Pee and poo from the puppies, put the soiled towels in the washer. Vacuum the carpet, shampoo if the pee and poo is on the carpet, sweep the kitchen, mop if there's time, do the dishes and wipe down the counter, put more laundry in the washer, hopefully clothes so I have something to wear to work. Pick all of the stuff that has accumulated on the kitchen counters and table. Pick up the living room. Tote the dirty clothes downstairs. Cringe at the dirt on my bathroom counter, and try to remember to bring cleaner with me so I can wipe it off. Finally get a shower. Sit on the couch and check email. H comes home, watch TV and snuggle. Go to bed, usually exhausted, often can't sleep. Listen to H complain about how tired she is and how she isn't getting enough rest. Listen to H complain about the kids she watches and her other job. LIsten to her complain about the dogs, the rescue, or whatever. Listen to her relate projects that need to be finished (i.e. I need to finish). Get up the next day and do it all over again. Work is my refuge, really.
I tried to tell her that I felt like I had no time to do things I enjoyed anymore. My weekends were jampacked. Anytime I tried to write, knit or anything at home, H pouted and had some comment about how she wanted to cuddle. So my office is still a mess. A huge dog crate takes up half of it. I never get to work on it, because I'm trying to just keep up with the minimum. M has to help me with all of the animals, because otherwise the house would reek. H was upset when I bought a really good vacuum, but we needed it just to get the dog hair up.
She told me the other day during our fight that she always did all of the work around the house, and she finally just quit, because I wasn't doing anything at all. I started thinking about that. I've always done all of the yard work. She has allergies and yard work makes her sick. So during the summer, I spent evenings mowing. I usually fixed dinner, something more than microwave meals and canned veggies. I cleaned up the dinner dishes. I'm the one who usually vacuums, dusts, etc. Sometimes she picks things up. I clean the bathrooms because she gags trying to do it. When I stopped to think about what she does, the most I could come up with was laundry. She's ruined a lot of my work clothes by putting them in the dryer, but I didn't say anything because laundry was about the only thing she did. M and I take care of the animals. M helps do the cleaning. H's sole contribution to the upkeep is the occasional wild hair she gets because something has been messed up too long. She always complains about everyone not putting things back where they belong, but she is the worst offender of this. I can't count how many times I've been in the middle of something and stopped because she needed help, only to end up doing the majority of the project, while she snapped at me how to do it better, faster, etc. Funny thing is, some of the things she complains about me doing, she turns around and does herself. Then she will complain if I don't ask her for help, even though she'd just snapped at me for asking for help, so I just resolve to do things on my own.
I'm sure eventually, something will come to a head. Deep down I really wants some space. She wants me to go visit her family with her over Christmas. I don't really want to go. I like her family, but I can't really afford the trip, and Christmas isn't really my thing and I now have an enormous tax bill to pay at the end of the year. I don't know where I'm going to come up with the money for that. She says to use my income tax refund for it, but I'd already decided to use that to pay off some bills. I have not yet told her I can't really afford the trip, because I know she'll be hurt. She's been asssuming I"m going to go.
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Wowser, Tay!
You sound exhausted & joyless.
Don't allow her to 'take over' your next therapy session. And, maybe you need a session alone with your T?
Do you think you could use some work on being assertive & enforcing your boundaries?
IMO, the dog crate in your office is both an actual & metaphorical example of how you are not asserting your boundaries. The crate is taking up both your physical & mental space.
It's a process & a journey.
xoxo,
ann
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Second Wowser here, too... :(
you're carrying MORE than your share of the household duties, you don't have time/space to participate in the rescue, and it sounds like you're carrying more than your share of the relationship, too.
This reality isn't quite what you were expecting. (sigh.... I remember the expectations, sweetie; here's a days worth of hugs for you)
I hope that the session together with your T is fruitful. You shouldn't have to sell yourself into cinderella-hood for a relationship - and then take the constant blame for all the things that make H unhappy, on top of it. If I've learned only one amazing fact on my journey....
it's that what we DO doesn't MAKE anyone else feel anything and a constant blame game isn't a relationship. But yeah - you know that already. Question is, I guess - what do you want - and it sounds like you're already working on the answer.
The silver-lining in all this, is that you're able to see most of the situation for what it is, yourself. You've already healed that much.
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H keeps saying we need to make a chart for household duties. I can't even remember to update the chart we made for M. I think it's rather obvious that the counters in the bathroom need to wiped off and the toilets cleaned, but apparently, it's not.
I really, really want to put that crate in the basement. I don't like it in my office. When the puppies are in it, it smells awful. I end up scrubbing and scrubbing it.
I even told H at one point that I didn't think the relationship was working. First she was mad and said she would tell the kids' mom she couldn't watch them anymore and find somewhere else to live. I haven't figured out she would do that part since she has no job or income. After that, then she started begging me not to leave her and telling me how much she loves me.
I've been to my T the last couple of times alone. I'm thinking this time, all three of us should go.
She asked me yesterday what I had decided to do about the child support. I told her I didn't know. I hadn't had time to think about it. It was the truth. I spent most of yesterday, cleaning up after the dogs, working on a webpage for the rescue, transporting dogs, etc. Then it was time to shuttle M to Tae Kwon Do and go pick up supplies. When I got home, we had to clean the puppy pen and clean up the house a little. I couldn't stand looking at the mess any longer. M was up late cleaning the puppy pen. He did a great job. H yelled at him for being up late, even though I told her it was my fault for not watching the time while he was cleaning the pen. Then this morning, she was yelling at him for leaving things out where the dogs could get to them and eat them. They eat things off the shelves in his room. There was nothing on his floor last night. I looked. She said nothing about the blanket or the jacket the dogs ate. APparently, those things don't count when the dogs get sick. They belong to me.
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it's that what we DO doesn't MAKE anyone else feel anything and a constant blame game isn't a relationship.
Amen! We've been brainwashed to believe what WE do makes OTHERS feel bad. No, no, no. We don't MAKE others feel anything. They feel what THEY feel. Right!!!!!
Question is, I guess - what do you want -
Amen! Sometimes, I find it hard to figure out WHAT I want. Didn't think that would be hard to do, but somxs, it is. Maybe it's hard because "you can't always get what ya want, but if ya try somexs, ya find, ya get what ya need".
So, for me, maybe it's somxs hard to figure out what I want because I KNOW/ASSUME I can't/won't get it. Which leads me to another thought..........in relationships, maybe we know/assume that we can't/won't get what we want from the other person, so, we may feel that (a) we don't KNOW what we want or (b) we give up wanting what we want because we know/assume that the other person can't/won't give it to us.
So...........if we know/assume that the other person can't/won't give us what we want, we (a) accept the relationship as it is, or (b) keep trying to get the other person to give us what we want {may be futile}, or (c) we change the relationship or, (d) we end the relationship.
ramble, ramble.
xox,
ann
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Tay,
Sounds like you & H really need to have a talk.
(((((((((((Tay))))))))))))). I know it's hard.
xoxo,
ann
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Ann, I"ve tried to talk to her. She either says I'm taking things out of context. My memory is faulty. I am unable to think of anyone but myself, even though, I don't seem to think about myself at all. She gets upset and her real feelings start coming out. Or she "mock insults" me and says she's playing.
I'm thinking our next T session going to be a family session with all 3 of us.
She keeps saying she's going to get her teaching license. She's blamed me for not giving her the money, even though I've told her more than once to just pay for it. She never has signed up for the classes. Now she's hips deep in this rescue, and it looks like that's going to talk all of her time. So, she still doesn't have a job other than babysitting 2 kids for pennies and a contract job that ends in April. The rescue is all she thinks about now.
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She either says I'm taking things out of context. My memory is faulty. I am unable to think of anyone but myself, even though, I don't seem to think about myself at all. She gets upset and her real feelings start coming out. Or she "mock insults" me and says she's playing.
Tay,
I'm sorry to say, but this sounds like gaslighting, emotional blackmailing & other stuff that Ns & BPDs do.
Do a family sessions w/ all 3 of you if you want (but, do you think that's OK for your son?), however, IMO, definitely have a session w/ just you & your T, so you will be free to express yourself & sort out your feelings.
How do you think your relationship is effecting your son? I assume he feels the tension.
Problem is if you breakup w/H, she will probably cause a scene & I'm sure you don't want M to witness the ugliness. Also, if H isn't working, how can she move out if she has no $? So, if you contemplate breakup, please discuss this with your T & have a plan to protect M.
xoxo,
ann
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Oh, he feels the tension. I found out some things last night that really disturb me.
I'm afraid if I break up with her, she will be the type of person to become obsessive. I broke it off once, and she continued to pursue. Besides, it would be hard for me to just kick her out when she has nothing. I would feel guilty about that. That's why I feel so trapped. The times when it's just me, M and the dogs, I actually relax. I was even able to write a little one day. I can't do that with H there.
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That's why I feel so trapped.
Bingo!! You feel trapped. IMO, this is what you need to discuss with your T in a session alone w/ yr T.
xoxo,
ann
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I hope counseling helps you to find good answers for yourself, Tayana.
Ami
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OK, you wrote something that tripped my red alert button... sorry to say.
If she's yelling at M for things that are obviously NOT his fault, I gotta BIG problem with that. Call me over-protective... but that's uncalled for, out of line, and to me would justify putting her out of your life. Even if it was an issue - yelling at him isn't going to help him learn to be more of anything, except yelled at.
As for kicking her out: please don't feel guilty if you choose your sanity and M over H. I'm seeing, from what you've described, that she is actually not giving you much choice... and this will fuel her internal victim role... and of course, she'll feel justified in being ugly toward you. NONE of that is anything more than her script... it's not reality, it's gaslighting like Ann said.
Please take back your power to decide what your home will be like, how you will live and what life is like for M. You aren't "doing" anything to H by resuming control of what is yours to control. She's done it to herself by not being willing to communicate like an adult, by imposing the rescue dogs on your household and not taking responsibility for the work this creates, and for blaming you - for everything.
You may feel pity and empathy for her situation... but that's exactly how she hooks you into the "game" she's playing, where she's controlling the whole situation and making you miserable. Know that, and set a clear boundary of what you will/won't do because of your empathy. (Easier said than done - I know... but I have a feeling you'll hear that advice more than once.)
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I'm afraid if I break up with her, she will be the type of person to become obsessive. I broke it off once, and she continued to pursue. Besides, it would be hard for me to just kick her out when she has nothing. I would feel guilty about that.
Tay....
remember.
H isn't your minor child.
M is.
Lighter
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Hi Tay,
You sound like you are sorting your emotions and in some way feeling responsible for your partner.
Your a very compassionate and caring person. You give share and give and think of others all the time. This is a good quality as well as one that can get you into a mess.
I also have to be carefull of my compassion. What I mean is I can have it and I can say NO with compassion or just No.
I once with exh had the same feelings as you and said the same thing as you. I just can't kick them into the street, where would they go. The T said why can you not? They have no place to go.
His response was....he is an adult he can take care of himself the only one you are responsible for is your Child and yourself.
Now I do understand that is is very difficult to say...Get Out if they have no place to go. Do you really think that she would be in the street? I would probably bet not.
So this is where we come in thinking We are some how responsible for other Adults....we are not.
Now I do think compassion has alot to do with it but (for me) it was not the only thing. My T called me out on it.
I don't understand why is it he is there. You don't want him there and you don't make him go, what is it Deb......
Mine was financial. I was not ready to just throw him out. I needed a plan. I needed to get things together. I would be flat broke and not only dealing with emotions but dealing with real life Needs....Basic needs. And really dealing with the situation. I pretty much gaslighted myself. I was difficult for me to just be honest with myself and own my feelings......I pretty much didn't like him and that felt yucky to me because I was already deeply involved (married). I jumped in too fast with my ex (kind of like you) and then was horrified at the What happened to the guy I met...to the guy who I'm married to...to the guy I met...to the guy I'm married to...and it was not just little Quirks of differences when you live together. And he did act like both the whole time...nice guy...crazy guy...needy guy..mean guy....nice guy....but I knew I was not happy with the relationship and I tried to talk myself into everything that I should stay or he should stay....till I realized.....
I was doing to much talking to myself and convincing or trying...when the real part of me...the true feelings wanted Out...
So here is what was really going on with me. I was pretty much not wanting to be with him in a relationship or wanting or even be able to stay in one without losing my sanity eventually and on the same hand not sure if I would live in the street. Which was another (gaslight) of myself (that would never happen) I always had some place to go and I could fend for myself.
I gave up my power Tay. Well not gave it up. I didn't want to feel it. It was screaming at me and haunting me (like it seems to be doing to you) the way you are speaking....Listen to yourself.
I had just moved out of my house about 1 year before I met my ex-h. I was vulnerable and scared at some times. I was young and unexperienced and got myself into a mess. I was pregnant before I married my ex. And then holy hell broke out. In between I had a loss of a baby and his true self really came through among other Nut things. Criminal things that rocked my socks when I found out.
I was trying to compromise myself and I felt like I was being N and the user at this point. My T said, Deb are you afraid you are going to be just like him? Do you feel like you are using him for the paycheck? Are you feeling like you will be mean and selfish if you just throw him out .....because I assure you.....you are not. You are not N. You are self protecting and protecting your child. Ignore him, get yourself together, a plan, save money somewhere else, and if you feel from 5 mins to 0 that he has to go then do it.
You are not responsible for him he can take care of himself. You are responsible for you and your children.
Now everyones situation is different and somewhat alike on this board.
The only advice I have for you (from my own experience) of questioning myself and the relationship (the real deal) what you see is what you get....is to always be true to yourself. It is perfectly fine to say No and set your boundaries then enforce them and not feel guilty for doing it. Compromise is one thing and No it is not acceptable is another. It appears your compromises have been violated right into I have a boundary that Must be Enforced.
I had so much built up resentment. But all along it was my power that I gave away and was mad that I did and at the same time felt guilty if I took power and enforced. Does this make any sense to you. I don't know how to explain it.
You are at a vulnerable time. You have started something with out coming to terms with something else.
I had also which made me even more vulnerable because I didn't finish one thing before I started another and it all snowballed into a Mess which I thought I was the only one who should of took care of it. And yes in reality that is correct but I was trying to take care of my ex and his problems too....
I was not responsible for him...period. Compromise, yes, boundary cross, No. Sometimes they do get crossed in normal relationships and have to be changed, more enforced, whatever....I didn't know the difference of what was what or how to do it...and only knew they were being crossed.
Try enforcing them Tay. No you will not. No enough is enough.
Your partner is having a tantrum and over steps her grounds. She needs to be put back into her own place, tantrum or not. I felt more like my ex's mother then I did his wife to a very trouble spoiled teenager who would through out manipulations and tantrums and I resented that very much. She needs to Grow Up and the question is...Will she? Up to her.
It's not your job to raise her and it's not her job to raise your son. She can be part of your life and a parent figure to M but she really truly cannot parent him. You are the parent with a child and she Joined your already made family.
It is difficult, yes it is, when you have a relationship with a child who is already older when you meet someone else. I know. I met my husband when my other children were 9 and 10. He was not Dad. He will never be dad but he is a father figure and a role model. The discipline, the bottom line, is all mine. He supports me, we discuss things but he never Ever tried Ever to take over.
What is going to happen Tay when M turns around and say...YOUR NOT MY MOTHER...to your partner. I can almost assure you it will happen. It's a rebellion, I want to hurt your feelings, I'm pissed off reaction from a child. We expected it. We discussed it and it did happen from both my children.
I stepped right in. I validated them that he was not they were correct and that they needed to call their dad for everything they wanted in the near future. I would give them their aunts tele number they could hunt him down. We would not be conned or manipulated or guilty of their bad behaviour and they were trying to hurt us with words and that it meant nothing to us. We were not hurt and know they are mad but oh well too bad the punishment stands and that is from ME. That they were loved and always will be by both of us and thier words were just that words. Anotherwords we understood what they were doing and why. They never did it again and lots of tears and I'm sorry.
These are things that you may or may not come across Tay. And your partner has to be more grown up then your Child.
There is a long road ahead of you and many *test* you will be put through by your child. A push your button test and what they can find to really piss you off from something they are mad about or feel is unjust to them.
Do you want this from your partner too?
Yes Tay your partner sounds needy and immature.
I'm sorry this was lengthy.
You have alot on your plate and alot of emotions going on. Don't push yourself so hard. Don't force a decision let it come to you.
It can be overwhelming, I know.
And it's alright to say, Oh Hell NO....
Lots of love and thoughts to you....
and I'm sorry it sucks when you are going through these emotions....I hear ya Tay.
Love
Deb
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Deb,
I'm trying to sort everything out, because I do care about her, and I don't want to hurt her. She told me she just keeps building up a wall because she knows the blow is coming. That's the way her life always works. She never gets what she wants. I told her once I wondered if she didn't get what she wanted because she didn't believe she deserved it. She rolled her eyes at me and said I was the one who didn't believe I deserved anything.
M does think of her as a parent figure. I think he's a little scared of her. She really makes him work and work when it's just the two of them. She told him that he shouldn't complain because life was about work, not having fun. I wondered why the T thought M was depressed. I'm starting to see why.
I think in the beginning I was content to do whatever she wanted to keep her happy. I know I bought things and made changes I didn't necessarily want to make. I thought that was compromising. I sold tons of stuff. Donated tons of things. I bought new furniture because she didn't like mine. I sold furniture that I liked, etc. I said nothing about the arrangement of things because it was the way she wanted. Now, I think I'm starting to get tired of doing everything her way. When we first started seeing each other, I liked her input about M, but now she seems to think he's her child. She actually got upset with me when I didn't want her to go a doctor appointment for M with me. She said it was like I didn't trust her.
I started doubting some of the things she said M told her about his grandma, about school, about me. They just didn't sound right. She would snipe at me about spending money, but say nothing about her own charges. She convinced me to get a joint account, even though I didn't really want to. I paid off her car so she wouldn't have to go to court. I offered to pay for her classes. Yet, she still tells me I only think of myself. When I try to talk to her, then she does one of two things, she tells me I'm the most intelligent person she knows and I have a brain. I should use it. She says I'm always turning her into my mom, which I"m not, but sometimes her tone of voice triggers that deer in the headlights feeling and I can't think. Or else she says I'm manipulating her into falling into my pity party. Like the other night with getting the pups settled. I got tired of her sniping at me. I finally snapped when she asked me if we had any dog blankets clean. Her exact words were, "I guess we don't have any dog blankets." I'd spent all day washing up all of the dog stuff. I still haven't gotten all my clothes washed yet. I was just tired of her little attitude and her rush, rush, and blaming me for things that didn't work. When I said I was tired of her being pissed because I wasn't moving fast enough or doing things right, she told me she wasn't buying into my pity party. I wasn't looking for a pity party. I just wanted her to stop sniping at me. She said she was tired and just wanted it done. I told her to go to bed. By the time she went to bed, she'd cooled off. I was exhausted because I couldn't sleep the night before. I hadn't gone to sleep until four and had gotten up at eight. But apparently, ten hours isn't enough sleep for her, because that's why she was short. She was tired. She went to bed and I continued cleaning up until she finally came and said if I was tired I should go to bed.
I don't know how to end it. I don't know what I want. I just want someone to love me, really, but I feel like I have to be on guard as much with H as I did with my parents. She claims she and M walk on eggshells around me, but I"m not sure that's true. I think it's the other way around. I wish I could just get over my fear enough to tell her to stop when she starts sniping at us. I just haven't been able to do it. When I do, then I undermine her authority with M and she gets upset.
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She told me she just keeps building up a wall because she knows the blow is coming. That's the way her life always works. She never gets what she wants.
Tay,
She is setting you up 100%. We here can see what you may not be able to see - we are at a distance. But everything she says to you is a way to keep you from taking any action that would be good for you. She makes it so that you are stuck doing everything her way so she doesn't "feel bad." It is pure manipulation. All of it, Tay.
She was in the same situation before she met you that she would be in if you asked her to leave now. As deb pointed out, she is AN ADULT. And, as Lighter pointed out, the only people you are (and should be) responsible to, are your minor ( and innocent) son, and yourself.
Please, please, think about letting this "relationship" go. This is not anything but a person using you. You are too kind to believe it, I think, but I really believe it is true.
Love,
Beth
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Tay
H seems to treat you as your M did,with little respect while you keep trying to be better . I wish I could bury FOO patterns in the ground, never to return. Ami
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I think he's a little scared of her. She really makes him work and work when it's just the two of them. She told him that he shouldn't complain because life was about work, not having fun. I wondered why the T thought M was depressed. I'm starting to see why.
Tay,
Please speak to your T about M being depressed, that's a serious concern.
I just want someone to love me, really, but I feel like I have to be on guard as much with H as I did with my parents.
Tay, we all want to be loved, but at what price? What I'm learning is that the place to start is loving ourselves and loving ourselves enough so that we don't subject ourselves to abuse.
I think it's wonderful that you have expressed your feelings here. Perhaps print out your posts & discuss them with your T?
I don't know what I want.
IMO, this is the key to your predicament. Once you figure out what you want, you can set your priorities and all will fall into place. If we don't know what we want, how can we make the right decisions?
xoxo,
ann
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IMO, this is the key to your predicament. Once you figure out what you want, you can set your priorities and all will fall into place. If we don't know what we want, how can we make the right decisions?
xoxo,
ann
[/quote]
You are so smart, Ann! Ami
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Dear Tay,
Why does this girlfriend have any authority over your son????
Much less to the point of yelling at him???????
This is not acceptable. Every book on step-parenting says NO, do NOT be the discipliarian for your partner's child.
Know what it reminds me of? EXACTLY what you experienced with your mother.
Your mother tried to take over the role of authority over and PARENT IN CONTROL of your child.
Hon, this is about you not knowing you have a right to happiness and peace.
love,
Hops
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Hi Tay,
I’m not around much anymore, but I drop in now and again and this is quite some hours after reading your thread.
Your relationship is not working, from what I ‘hear/see’, and never will, unless some severe changes are made. Why all the dogs? and why is she making you, the breadwinner, so responsible for everything? Please don’t fall for the pathetic, “You are gonna leave me”, “I am awaiting the drop of the blade” stuff! Insecurity. She requires therapy to overcome that.
I believe you to be the stronger person, but you are being ‘played’ with her neediness. My feeling is that in no way is H a parent to your son. no rights or sensibility whatsoever. You are the parent regardless, and it is your life with Michael that is the most important.
I am really reminded of my relationship with my daughter’s father, living together, not married, while he drank, beat me, but made the $$$ to support us. I was given exactly what I needed to run the household, and no more., and I ran it well.
He never even had a bank account. The rest of his cheque….I have no idea,….but I kicked him out when I feared he might begin to strike our daughter, and realized he would not stop drinking for anyone…not even the two of us who he professed to love.
When I left I had some $$$ from selling my furniture and I spent $350 on an ‘60 VW beetle, then drove with a brand new license, 500 miles to my parents’ place, even though they were not my favourite people, but stayed there until I found a job and a place to house D and me with a good sitter for her.
A bit opposite but as much as I thought I still loved him, I left and took D.
Our life styles are not the same and I was the one without a job and $$. He was well-employed, but D and I came first, even before I realized it, as sincerely as I now do. That was ‘66 and now it’s ‘08--42 years ago.
I am picking up that H is doing what makes you take on the feelings of insecurity, and she is the one who is insecure.
I cannot remember, how long this relationship has been in effect, but if I remember correctly, it was a bit on the quick side???? and that she was the needy one who pursued the getting together. Was she looking for financial security as well as emotional? I feel she is in no way pulling her weight, is pathetic and is, also somewhat if not entirely, an N.
I have learned so much while being here and am reframing all incidents in my life in a different manner, and have realized that likely my parents and 4 siblings were never the deep thinkers that I am, so therefore I can see that I might have been ‘top dog’/”the one envied?” in the family, while the others have been no help and are living with repressed memories, plus guilt for making me the scapegoat. They will not be open with me, and my parents, both dead, were never open either.
Listen to yourself and to your friends and
Good Luck
Izzy
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This is about not erecting and defending healthy boundaries.
You have that duty, tay.
It's not just a right.....
bc M depends on you.
Light
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I agree.
Get some counseling for yourself, Tay. Ami
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Hey Tay,
Have been thinking of you. I hope you and M are doing ok.
(((((((((((Tay)))))))))))))
Peace
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Tay.... how're you doing?
Lighter
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How's counseling going, Tay? Ami