Voicelessness and Emotional Survival Message Board
Voicelessness and Emotional Survival => Voicelessness and Emotional Survival Message Board => Topic started by: Izzy_*now* on November 19, 2008, 12:03:54 AM
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I have been Googling and really don't know the answer as to how basic arithmetic came about, but I do believe that the one and only truth is Mathematics.
If anyone can prove to me that 1+1 does NOT = 2, try.... and that 2 + 2 does NOT = 4, try!
What I am saying is that is all other areas of life, can any one particular person say that his or her own thoughts are absolute truth? For absolute truth, to me, there must be another party in total agreement, over the very simplest of occurrences! Not god..we never hear his voice!
I cannot think of another area and I don't like to be skeptic about , oh so many, things.
I am so disillusioned about my recent investigation on line about the USA's Moon Landing on July20, 1969. I was 1½ months in hospital from the car crash, and my daughter was far away, but I knew she was looking at the same moon that I could see on my little TV, and also the real moon.... outside the hospital window...... and I felt a real closeness to her then.
As I delve into this topic, I feel 'cheated', for what that feeling was to me.... really meant to me... for a wonderful , momentous memory thinking of D, and it never happened.
I see there are many questions, and missing files, and unanswered questions, and it blended into my private life as well, as so many other people investigating shadows, stars, gravity etc. and there are no honest answers, is no honest proof and no one has been to the moon really. Prove it.. with all 498 tapes missing!
So where do you see the real and undeniable truth?
I see it only in Arithmetic.
How disillusioned we can be because so many people think in different ways.... will cheat, lie, steal, murder, slander, ANYTHING! ...just to be right!
Too many things are taken on faith and that is not always right, with this "faux moon landing", the "debunking of 9/11" and the "grassy knoll and JFK".
If so many people in High Places can pull off these pieces of crapola to the general public, think of ourselves, just a single person, and how we, as innocents, can be fooled by a 'Higher Power'.
We cannot find truth even in the bible, since it has been translated so many times that meanings could be changed. We don't know if a certain starlet has a belly button or not, because of 'photoshopping'. We don't know anthing, but arithmetic!
My final solution about myself was that I was not the sibling who was so badly damaged, but that the other 4 would not face their goblins, scapegoated me, felt clear of their 'sins', moved forward to in marriagres, and I was left behind, alone, scapegoated and for 69½ years felt that I was the 'messed up one'.
I now believe that I wasn't..that I was used and it messed me up...but I got away...thought it out... and I see they are the ones who will not face certain facts, but I have no proof and never will have.
I also has a picture come to mind the other day............ that after my accident, wouldn't it have been such a nice gesture if my parents and 4 siblings came to see me in hospital, as a family, all of us, and discuss the severity of the situation and possible outcome(s)!!!!!
I can see it as what some families might do, but not mine.
Where is your truth? From what you feel? know? have been told? what you have seen? Pretty dam*ed hard to tell.
Back to Apollo 13 movie
Izzy
Agree or not?
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Truth!
I am surprised that no one here has an opinion on TRUTH!
I sent the same post to my daughter and …I Love this!! Her reply …
“I absolutely LOVE this topic. There was once an installation at the science centre called "A Question of Truth" that the kids were bored out of their minds at and wanted to go to the fun stuff, so I actually went back by myself once on a school day to spend some real time there. I wonder if I can find my notes from it? Anyway, I'm just up with a cough... quite sick with a cold...and it's almost 4:30 am, so I’m going to go back to bed, and will find some time for some discourse on this topic later.”
I’ve always been one who wanted an answer.
The following will give you the answer faster than I became aware.
Everytime I went into the bathroom, there was a new little bunch of ‘back ovals” on the floor. I had no idea what they were. I wondered! Dead little bugs? On further inspection? NO ! What then ? and I would clean up, dump and flush.
Another day as I was combing/styling my hair, as I threw out yet another bobby pin that lost its tip, I was thinking back to when I bought this package and observed how many were left. This morning, as I tossed yet another that had lost a ‘tip’, the answer came to me.
Crumbs, etc. fall onto my lap, even bobby pin tips, and when I transfer, (chair to toilet) my lap “dumps whatever on the floor”
AHA! No bugs! Bobby pin tops!
I can sleep tonight! and die in peace!
All in fun!
Izzy
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Hi Iz,
So where do you see the real and undeniable truth?
I see it only in Arithmetic.
I like the subject of your thread. Not everyone is into mathmatics or science or truth for that matter. I thought I remembered hearing Stephen Hawking say that he thought if there were a God he would simply be a mathmatical equation. So I searched to see if my recall was correct. Here are three quotes (in no particular order) from his book A Brief History of Time Is his belief anywhere close to your own?
"It is difficult to discuss the beginning of the universe without mentioning the concept of God. My work on the origin of the universe is on the borderline between science and religion, but I try to stay on the scientific side of the border. It is quite possible that God acts in ways that cannot be described by scientific laws, but in that case, one would just have to go by personal belief."
"Even if there is only one possible unified theory [here he's talking about the unification of quantum mechanics with an understanding of gravity], it is just a set of rules and equations. What is it that breathes fire into the equations and makes a universe for them to describe?"(p. 174).
"These laws may have originally been decreed by God, but it appears that he has since left the universe to evolve according to them and does not now intervene in it" (p.122).
More commentary on the subject at: http://www.leaderu.com/real/ri9501/bigbang2.html
I like scientific discussions. God's truth doesn't exclude scientific truth, but I think scientific truth is simply a part of God's truth, that's how I see it.
tt
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I have been Googling and really don't know the answer as to how basic arithmetic came about, but I do believe that the one and only truth is Mathematics.
Izzy
Have you seen the movie "Good Will Hunting?"
Lighter
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Hi lighter
Yes! I have seen the movie--what was in it about this? Please?
Izzy
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hi tt
This:
"It is difficult to discuss the beginning of the universe without mentioning the concept of God. My work on the origin of the universe is on the borderline between science and religion, but I try to stay on the scientific side of the border. It is quite possible that God acts in ways that cannot be described by scientific laws, but in that case, one would just have to go by personal belief."
is generally where my mind takes me when questioing if there is a G_d!
I am not a great scientist or mathematician, I am a bookkeeper. I am so suited to that job, as there is only one answer in balancing my books.
I have always wanted answers, as I've said, so anyone else's opinion is just that, and he.she is entitled to it as their truth and I have my truth and my D has her truth. I am also more interested in relationships whereby there is feedback in person or in posts or email etc. G_d has never written me a letter.
I go with my gut and do things for MY own reasons, the ones that make me the most comfortable with myself, after 69 years ............thinking I was always the wrong one and, becoming a little more in tune with family, that I just might have been right many times, but 6 against 1 is unfair, so I took the easy way out and went "with the crowd" that I was wrong, reaching the point that I no longer want any arguments for which I don't know the G-d's honest truth. :)
Izzy
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I also, re "truthy" things, do not believe in psychics, any meaning in dreams etc.
As for my dreams I know why they happen...just a passing thought or 2 while awake and it turns into a story in my dreams.
For instance, if you remember my ex-boss Ken, who said no one would ever want me now, but he did, called last week. I didn't answer the phone, He never leaves a message & I had just talked for 2 hours to a friend back East. It was her birthday. I didn't need 2 hours of boring Ken.
Then I had a dream about him--he was in bed with me and I was wondering how he got there and I kicked and pushed and yealled at him to "get the H. out!....he tried the sex thing the day I returned from hospital. Ken was a passing thought re the phone call, and why I have no real respect for him was what he said and tried to pull.
I sure don't take it as meaning anthing other than a story about the above.
izzy
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Hi Izz hon,
Love you.
I can relate to part of this!
The part about the bobby pin bits and the figuring-out thereof.
All the rest...I am math-phobic and philosophy gives me a headache.
But I can so relate to the concrete, like bobby pin bits.
You are one clever woman, you know? It's SO NEAT that your D shares
your type of mind...lucky thing.
Much affection,
Hops
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I don't think everything about math is simple or easy to figure out.... that's all :shock:
As for unquestionable truths......
I know I love my children.
That's a truth, for me.
Lighter
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Izzy,
This is a topic I also relate to and puzzle about so often. Am I right in anything I do? How do I know if I am wrong? If many people are for something that I think is wrong, is it OK for me to still think it is wrong? Is there something wrong with me if I do?
As for math, I know there is a way to refute the concrete problems you put here, but I do not know how to challenge you on them.
There are no absolutes. Period. Wait - wasn't that an absolute??? So that statement must be untrue.
Help!!!!
Beth
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Hiya Hops,
Thanks. Like you I just cannot wrap my mind around certain theories. This is why I asked this question of where is anybody's truth, plus my daughter's and have had a wonderful respone to study before I reply
See the attached image, a formula, What does it mean? I don't know and I don't need to know.
I expect that on this board we are searching for our own personal truths and our areas of expertise.
I was good at Arithmetic and Math through high school and became a bookeeper. Perhaps I knew away back then, that it made sense, whereby many other things were beyond my grasp. I, as well, like Spelling and Grammar.
Physics & Chemistry were my worst. History seemed like rehashing the past....and now I am doing that, only about me to understand me. Geography is now useless because many countries disappeared and are replaced with new names.
Without guidance from an elder, I suggest I took easy ways out, that is, comfortable, and likely still do it.
I can tend to agree and understand, as with the first item in tt's post, but is it my truth? I agree that it could be possible and impossible and I would never go around on tour talking about it, because I don't know.
Hi lighter
The image below is for you as well. This stage of Math is beyond me. I had just high school education, and had been thinking about how I knew I was to go to school to learn....the 3 Rs. Well I did learn Reading and 'Riting and 'Rithmetic., and I became a assistant to the teacher in these, with kids older than I and a few grades behind. Say Grade 8, I was 11, one of my school chums was 13 and in Grade 7, her older brother was 15 and in Grade 5. Her eldest brother was 17 and in Grade 8 with me.
But I mentioned in a post sometime ago, that I was at the outside of the school, age 5, and cried. My reason was because I couldn't go in because I did't know anything. My 2 older sisters ridiculed me, saying I was stupid because school is where I would learn something.
We can state out own personal inner truths and no one can refute that, except G_d.
Hiya Beth
This is a topic I also relate to and puzzle about so often. Am I right in anything I do? How do I know if I am wrong? If many people are for something that I think is wrong, is it OK for me to still think it is wrong? Is there something wrong with me if I do?
Wow! That is me. I couild have written that!
There are no absolutes! :D :D :D How about "Maybe there are no absolutes." Who invented 1+1=2?
This, from tt's post as well:
"These laws may have originally been decreed by God, but it appears that he has since left the universe to evolve according to them and does not now intervene in it" (p.122).
--
--can make sense to me as well, because of this Earth and all the tragedies therein.
More that I know that is not true is "magic acts", and more that I feel is that absolutely no one can know another 100%, until one has walked in the other's shoes. I was researching something on the Internet and one site said one thing, another said the opposite...I think it was about my dry skin condition.
Loved your..HELP!!!
Izzy
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Izzy,
You know what is crazy to me too? When a mathemetician or scientist "discovers" something new. Like the theory of relativity... How could those things BE THERE and we cannot fathom them? How many other things are there that we have no idea exist???????
Love, Beth
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Hi CB,
A very interesting response.
In my quest to 'set things right' in my head, I have my truths and my unknowns. I, too, have changed over the years. All those years were a search for me, and why I have ticked along being the 'outcast/black sheep' of the family.
From my original post
My final solution about myself was that I was not the sibling who was so badly damaged, but that the other 4 would not face their goblins, scapegoated me, felt cleared of their 'sins', moved forward into marriages, and I was left behind, alone, scapegoated and for 69½ years felt that I was the 'messed up one'.
I now believe that I wasn't..that I was used and it messed me up...but I got away...thought it out... and I see they are the ones who will not face certain facts, but I have no proof and never will have.
This so-called revelation makes more sense to me, knowing certain behaviours on their part.
There is an incident I have to believe because it came from a Helicopter Rescue Pilot in Iceland.
In 2003, when my grandson was 17, he was sailing to Europe with his Uncle Tom, his N father's younger brother. The vessel was dilapitated inside, but not the outside view. They were caught in a storm off the Icelandic Coast and they 'abandoned ship' right after g'son used the satellite phone to call his Dad with a Mayday and co-ordinates. Then the phone died.
Now I have read the researched book. His father, my ex son-in-law, took the call and the co-ordinates. He then went into 'overload and collapse' (as my therpist termed it...he read the book) but first called his girlfriend and asked her to do something for him. He gave her the co-ordinates and she called the Coast Guard. (We now have 3 sets of co-ordinates, G'son's, his father's , the girfriend's, and then the satellite phone records. NOT ONE was right.... except perhaps with the 2 story high waves sloshing the 2 of them in the freezing water, and moving them about...... my thought, but a big ocean?
The boat was already on its way to the ocean floor, and g'son had lost his survival pack with flashlight, as well, and floated around for 1½ hours holding onto his uncle's dead body, & the Rescue team was heading out to the Ocean. Suddenly the pilots saw a flash of light, that blinked 3 times, then no more, but they locked in the co-ordinates of that, and continued to check the reported co-ordinates. Nothing at all 4.
They chose then to return to the blinking lights, and they spotted my g'son and his uncle.
Why would the pilot lie? No reason that I can see..........just and incident reported by a stranger that I take on faith.
Izzy
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Right Beth,
But I know 'theory of relativity'.
Since I am older now, I resemble my mother so I know she is a relative. Now do you understand?
About one of Newton's law of motion, "To every action there is an equal and opposite reaction" , there are ways to prove it ourselves.
I try to not think of an apple falling from a tree, just to do the opposite and fall back up into the tree. There must be two separate things, like the apple and the ground (and that leads to gravity, but I'd rather make fun of these things than to argue with the scientists. I have no argument.)
xx
Izzy
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Hi Izzy,
I missed your posts for awhile there. Glad to see you posting again!
I really liked your question. I am not a mathematician, but my H is (he is really, really smart, IQ clocked at > 150). Calculus is easier for him than 1+1=2 is for me. So I asked him. He said that the basic precepts of math are true; but math can be subjective. We then got into a discussion about math systems that are on different bases (I forget what he called them).
Anyway, here was the example he gave me. Suppose you have 11 apples in front of you.
In the commonly used 10-base math system, this would = 11 apples.
In an 8-base math system, it would = 13 apples
In a 4-base math system it would = 23 apples and in a binary system it would be 1011 apples, if I’ve done the math correctly.
Here's how it works, the As below are apples:
A1 A2 A3 A4 A5 A6 A7 A8 A9 A10 A11
10-base 0 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11
8-base 0 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 10 11 12 13
4-base 0 1 2 3 10 11 12 13 20 21 22 23
binary 0 1 10 11 100 101 110 111 1000 1001 1010 1011
Now, all that being said – there is still an absolute mathematical truth …. no matter what you call it, you still have the same quantity of apples in front of you.
It was a fun discussion, it was almost as though the math proved your point! Ha!
Math at its most basic precepts is true/the 3-D world is governed by physical (mathematical) truths – it is the interpretation, or the theoretical spin one puts on it that makes it 6 and ½ dozen of the other.
I go round and round with perceptions, mine, how I perceived other’s perceptions, how others come up with what I perceive their perception to be. Sometimes I have a really hard time figuring this out – and even then, when I think I have it figured out – my perception can be totally off, absolutely spot on, or partially true.
So, I am always wondering ….. is my perception accurate, inaccurate, somewhere in between?
Usually it is out in left field – ha!
Just kidding … I think what I have found is that there are some who I can trust in 3D (not many – I have a very hard time trusting) and who I can bounce my perceptions off of and get their take on it (my H being one) – we don’t always agree, but we can discuss it civilly …. which is a blessing in and of itself (never had that as a child).
Great topic Iz. Thanks!
PS - My H lost me in the hexadecimal system ..... here is how it goes apparently ….they substitute letters for numbers ...
0 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 A B C D E F 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 1A 1B 1C 1D 1E 1F 20 2F… :shock:
They do use these systems as you probably know being a computer guru .... computers are based on binary (2-digits, 0 and 1, true/false). The hexadecimal system is used as a short hand for binary as the #s get long very quickly.
Sorry for the long ramble - we had a great discussion from your topic - thanks Iz!
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Iz, loved reading your topic and Finding Peace, I LOVED reading your contribution. Soooooo interesting and I made so many analogies....
What if the way we view "reality" is based on our own "base system"? What if we are all seeing the same amount of apples, but we are explaining what we perceive based on our base system? I know EXACTLY what you mean, Peace, about perceptions of reality and how mine can lead me way into left field.
I have found something very practical--if I can explain to my partner within a few minutes what "base system" I am operating from, we usually can come to a greater understanding of each other and what we are disagreeing over. If I make a couple of attempts and don't connect, its better to just let it go. This has been a HUGE relational skill that I have never gotten before. (there's usually another chance with another issue later).
Man....I am a slow learner on this. But it has been the reason we have built the depth of relationship that we have. I'm sure of it. It's counter intuitive though--it assumes that the strength of the relationship is not built on understanding each other, but on accepting each other.
A few months ago, I think I shared here something that I had read about understanding. That an author I was reading said that no one ever really understands us. Not really. If we insist on that, we will hit constant dead ends in our relationships. What that is really saying is that no one really sees our perception of truth. What that means to me is NOT that I give up on the existence of truth, but rather on the experience of knowing it.
I wonder if our deep grief and disappointment about that is the reason so many of us on this board either avoid or struggle with close relationships?
Anyway, thanks for the thought provoking discussion.
Love
CB
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Oh FP and CB
I loved those posts. More to mull over.
I began (1st grade)school at age 5, in 1946. It was somewhere in the early '60s that the 'new math' appeared. The Toronto Telegram (now defunct newspaper) had a new slice of info every day and I began to try to learn it. Eventually it lost me. In the early '90s I was a volunteer assistant to a primary school teacher. I had to ask him to show me how with the subtraction in new math.
When my daughter became somewhat a guru with her calculus, I felt really left out.
FP, I never got into any other really, than my original math (basic arithmetic) then algebra and trigonometry in Gr 13, 1956. What I learned in basic math was suffient to see me through all my bookkeeping and payroll jobs, so became my basis for truth, unknowingly, as I always knew how to balance the books and find errors if out.
My compiter guruness is wearing off a bit as I have reached the point of not needing to learn some things that can be done, but I can teach basic computer, and still do, to anyone interested.
and CB, What if the way we view "reality" is based on our own "base system"?
Now if that isn't food for thought as well!! How can we work Math/Science into those who canNOT understand NPD?
Ooooooooooooooooo, I'm glad I posted this
Love and thanks all
Izzy
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Epistemology
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Epistemology (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Epistemology)
Anyone interested, there is this word, and the Wiki link has oodles of things to chew over and dig at to your heart's content.
D and I are having quite the exchange.
Izzy
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I'm so glad, Izzy.
You've healed so much between you..... what a journey.
Lighter
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Hi Iz and CB,
I am glad you enjoyed that post. My H and I had a lot of fun discussing your topic Iz.
I never heard of the different base systems until my H. Basic math got me through as well. In fact, I am a sort of a data analyst/writer now. I analyze 1000s of pages of data and statistical output and am required to summarize the trends across all that data in a report. Been doing this now for ~20 years, and basic math was all I needed (with a little stats thrown in – but basic stats – no use of different base systems – thank goodness).
I agree CB – I think the different math base systems are analogous to different communication styles. And in thinking of it in these terms, it takes the heat out of it a bit?
Sometimes I think we all have our own base language systems – some are closer to others. I think the mark of a good relationship is how much each is willing to take the time to understand the other’s system as best as you can – and to recognize, sometimes, the base systems won’t always meet or be recognized and that is ok too; not always easy in the short run – but ok.
If I take it a step further, the Ns/Ps also have their own base system; however, they expect everyone around them to conform to their base system, never explain it, and ignore the basic truths of math to constantly mutate their base system to suit their own agenda at any given time (ie., one day their math base is equivalent to 1+1=5 and another it is 1+2= 5 – and you better know this ahead of time, and not argue!). Did that sound bitter? Wasn’t intended to – I have just been very well versed in how difficult it is to maintain my own base system and understand an N’s base system (if possible) at the same time.
…it assumes that the strength of the relationship is not built on understanding each other, but on accepting each other.
This really jumped out at me .... it makes a lot of sense. And ultimately, I would rather have a relationship built on acceptance first … with a foundation of acceptance …… the willingness to understand comes more fluidly I think.
A few months ago, I think I shared here something that I had read about understanding. That an author I was reading said that no one ever really understands us. Not really. If we insist on that, we will hit constant dead ends in our relationships. What that is really saying is that no one really sees our perception of truth. What that means to me is NOT that I give up on the existence of truth, but rather on the experience of knowing it.
I believe this. I would say that I have to give up on completely knowing someone else’s truth but will continue to search for mine. I may have enough glimmers to understand someone else's truth on some levels, but I will never truly understand where they are coming from. I think the flip side of that is vital too - the expectation that others understand my truth (if I expect this, I am certainly bound for disappointment) …
I wonder if our deep grief and disappointment about that is the reason so many of us on this board either avoid or struggle with close relationships?
For me, I think I gave up a long time ago on being completely understood or attempting to understand someone else completely, so I am not sure that I grieve this, although it would be nice to have this depth of knowing with someone else wouldn't it?
My H and I certainly don't have this. Although where we are today in understanding each other is so much further than where we were a year into our relationship.
These days, my struggle/avoidance with relationships in 3D stems from not trusting my own base system. In my childhood I was constantly told that my base system was wrong. Then in my late teens/early 20s, I was in bad relationship – there were red flags and warning signs, but I ignored them (or had been trained to ignore them), and after he got violent, it was the final straw - I lost trust in myself. I spent 10 years alone (no dating), going to therapy, and sorting through a lot before I risked dating my H. It took a long time for me to learn to trust my base system – and I still don’t trust it completely – remnants from my FOO.
As always CB and Iz – you have me thinking. Thank you.
Love you guys,
Peace
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Oh Iz,
I am sorry, I missed where you said you were having some great interactions with your daughter.
I am so happy for you.
I remember when I first came here how it was hard for you to hear of my estrangement with my mother. You were estranged from your daughter, and I was talking about how I left my mother.
I am so happy you are reconciled with your daughter. I often wish my mother was as open-minded and willing to have a real discussion as you are. But, it isn’t in her.
In the 2 years I’ve been here – I’ve learned a lot from you and others – my life has been enriched in so many ways …. I am so grateful that you and others have posted here.
Take care Iz,
Peace
[I am sorry if I am not making sense here – haven’t been able to think clearly today. My pet died last night and I am a mess. :cry: I’ve had her for 15 years, and in many ways she was the only anchor I had through some very tough times.]
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Dear Peace...
I can't understand math but I sure understand grieving over a beloved animal friend.
I'm so very sorry. What a hard loss.
love and comfort to you, and to her as she goes free now...
Hops
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Peace,
I'm sorry to hear about you pet. I lost my dog 3 weeks ago and she was great comfort also. As a matter of fact her parents were Therapy Dogs. My mom's final gift to our family and arrived the day after my mother was buried. She was almost 14 years old and grew up with my kids. She spent time in the play pen with my younger son..
I know it's hard. I took it really bad. I miss her terrible.
I'm sorry peace.
Love
Deb
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Thank you for your compassion Hopsy and Deb.
((((Deb I am so sorry for your loss ……. it is so very hard))))
Sorry for the hijack Iz.
FP
(edited)
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hi FP
Not to worry about the hijack, bur check out my next post about TRUTH!
...and I havent a qualm in the world about sending it.
xx
Izzy