Voicelessness and Emotional Survival Message Board
Voicelessness and Emotional Survival => Voicelessness and Emotional Survival Message Board => Topic started by: Dawning on May 10, 2009, 04:48:45 PM
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Hello Dear Board Members. I want to share a response that I wrote today to a letter I received a week ago. (The 3rd paragraph really has me in a state of dismay.) I hope you don't mind my sharing the letter. Please let me know your thoughts and feelings when you get a chance. Love, Dawning.
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If someone could offer me a reason why grown-ups aren't allowed to have feelings and present them honestly and openly, I would like to hear it. Until then, feel away!
As for that woman, maybe you projected your wants and needs of the kind of long-lasting relationship you want onto her. You don't need to settle for less than what you are worth. It sounds like she is a jerk - at least now.
I'm going through something with a guy who has gotten his pains of life inside my head. The heart-thing I am getting over but the last communication I've had from him was all about friendship ("I feel honored to have you as a friend") and "I'll call you." And every day that goes by and he doesn't call just to say hello and *I care about you as a friend* is diminishing the trust I have in his words. It is very depressing. Would be easier if I had friends around me for support. Well, things will change.
I really need to keep looking for another job too. This last year of my life, I feel like I've given too much and been taken advantage of and used. So I am keeping my power close to me.
I have a friend staying but all I can give is the occassional conversation and a sofa to sleep on. No need to apologize. It is not nonsense. I think you and I would do well to not be so nice to weaker people - they can be very insensitve, unappreciative and cruel. It seems like one has to be a bitch (to some degree) or people will take what they can get and leave.
Of course, I could be wrong but that is how I feel now. Thanks for YOUR long-lasting friendship.
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Dear ((((Dawning))))
I am not sure I understand your question . Could you ask it in a more specific way or maybe it is just me and I am just being dense. Anyway, I would like to help if I could. Ami
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hi dawning,
I suspect you might not be over the heart-thing as you profess, or his absence of contact would not hurt as much as it appears to?
Is that the problem?
Iz
Having other friends around could work 2 ways, make you angry with them as they are not him, or take up enough of your time to help you forget him easier.
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I don't have any advice.... just a hug and reminder to check your expectations.
((()))
Mo2
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I suspect you might not be over the heart-thing as you profess, or his absence of contact would not hurt as much as it appears to?
Is that the problem?
Iz
Having other friends around could work 2 ways, make you angry with them as they are not him, or take up enough of your time to help you forget him easier
All I can say is that I feel the pain most in my head (get headaches, brain hurts) when I think about the words he used after he decided to stop seeing me (or at least he thinks he did - he actually beat me to it) and then sent me all this crap that I have since ripped up and thrown away. When I think about THAT, my brain hurts so I figured he tried/is trying to play a mind game with me. Or he's gloating over the fact that not only did he get away with it but that he was able to send some scented bullshit in the mail in the form of a card and a crooning b/day msg on my voicemail. Occassinally, I feel pain in my heart but it's mostly in my head these days.
Having other friends around is challenging as I don't have many, having just spent a year teaching at a place where I've not been able to make friends with a soul and being tired after work all the time. In fact, that was one of the reasons that made me so vulnerable to being emotional raped and singled out by him in the first place. Still, I should have known better. Seeing him certainly made things worse but now they can only get better.
The friends I do have around are, unfortunately, mostly male. I am so fed up with talking to anyone right now. One of them is visiting from Africa (I have known him for years) and all I can do drink tea occassionally and give him some conversation that might cheer me up as well.
Yes, I'm angry. I wish the person who screwed with my head just to save his own f*cking self-obsession would hurry up and die.
Dawning.
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Dear Dawning
I am going to put s/thing out there which some people will not agree with.
Too many women become sexual with a man before the man commits. Women, by the nature of being female, bond after they have sex. Men can have sex and no bonding.
The woman thinks the man is as bonded as she is after sex,but he isn't. The women feels very betrayed and violated.
This thought came to me when I heard the depth of your pain and betrayal.
Just a thought and I may be entirely off base. Ami
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I am going to put s/thing out there which some people will not agree with.
Too many women become sexual with a man before the man commits. Women, by the nature of being female, bond after they have sex. Men can have sex and no bonding.
The woman thinks the man is as bonded as she is after sex,but he isn't. The women feels very betrayed and violated.
This thought came to me when I heard the depth of your pain and betrayal.
Just a thought and I may be entirely off base. Ami
Thanks Ami. Certainly I think hardly anyone could disagree with the above.
However, at what point is something a little off-kilter? I met the man in question in June. We started a sexual relationship in November. I trusted him and felt it was "real" and he obviously has severe control issues to get out of the relationship so quickly and orchestrate the "break up" as all his doing. Now I feel like I was set up to have a broken heart and being set up hurts more than anything else.
What is at the root of it all is my vulnerability. I am middle-aged, single with no children or family and live with two cats. I just gave up my 17 year life of community and friends and moved back to the states which required crossing the ocean. Very easy prey, if I am not careful.
I am really starting to think that this world is losing its collective heart and that only some of us embody any shreds of it left.
Hmm..
Dawning
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I am really sorry, Dawning...
you deserve community, an armada of Amazons.
I hope you can find your way to a community of women friends
(from which you can eventually SAFELY venture out for romance).
I am very sorry he hurt and dumped you.
I think his treacly messages should be cut off...block email.
Tell him you want No Contact.
You will heal...
love
Hops
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Dear ((Dawning))
I can see how you felt so vulnerable. I am just starting to face the truth about myself, relationships and life. I was so lost in numbness that I made poor decisions.
My hope is that as I grow, I will make better choices.
He is a part of your history. We all have that history with it's mistakes.
Keep sharing Dawning. It helps me to share and hopefully it will help you, too. Love to you Ami
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Thanks Ami and Hops,
I will keep sharing...
Just out of curiosity, do you think some people actually think, "wow. got him/her to kiss my ass and now they are right where I want them. I could care less about how they feel now but I feel really pleased with myself because I am so clever about saying all the right things and maintaining my belief system of love, peace and friendship and I don't have to do a damn thing now with this relationship because she let me get away with murder so it's all her fault and I don't have to prove the truth of my words anymore. Done. Whopee! I got laid and it was really good sex too but I didn't really like her, I just pretended to - and she was so easy for the picking because she was so vulnerable and so damn nice. Well, whatever. Aint my problem anymore. HAHAHA! I can't wait to get laid tonight by a 30-something chocolate babe." (This is just an example. I hope the sentiment comes through loud and clear.)
Do they never think that they are a) hiding behind their words b) intentionally f*cking with someone by leaving the door open with an "I'll call you later" sentence, c) lying obviously, d) not listening to the person or even treating them like a person. e) sending very profound sentiments of honoring the friendship and treasuring our time together and not realizing how detrimental it is to lie.
It is okay. It is all okay. What hurts is that he CAN lie. The friendship never meant anything to him.
Someone said to me once, "it is wrong to take advantage of the loneliness of a woman." He was from India and I met him for dinner once in Tokyo. Never saw him again. I would add, "it is wrong to take advantage of ANYONES' good nature."
I have hurt some people. I certainly didn't tell them what great people they were, how honored I was to have them as a friend or some other really nice-smelling bullshit that rings hollow (I suspect it is just a way to get them off the hook.) I looked them straight in the eye and asked for their forgiveness. The ones who could forgive themselves and me could look right back at me in the eyes and say, "yes, I forgive you."
What is the difference between people who can do the above and people who cannot?
Thanks for being open to me in my time of pain. I'll get through this. I am learning. -Dawning
p.s. the man who i have trust issues with now...he and I hang in a large circle of people nationwide. I think that is the reason he wrote those scented bullshit letters to me. However, I do not intend to bring this up with ANY of our mutual acquaintances. Why bother, amen.
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Dawning:
Of course there are people without conscience in this world.
Lots of them.
It's your responsibility to view them, and their behavior, with clarity.
To not make excuses for poor/rude/confusing behavior.....
to identify it for what it is and reject it, without drama or offer of second chances.
It's difficult to know what you're looking at, without proper context.
Most everyone on this board has enough context for a lifetime.
We need to trust ourselves, know what a proper boundary is, put it in place and defend it like a mama bear defending her cub.
Mindfully.
Resolutely.
Without fail.
Try not to waste your youth worrying about good and evil in the world.
We can't have one without the other, they're both here to stay.
Instead, learn how to choose worthy people.... how to establish lasting relationships.
How to forgive yourself for giving your trust to an unworthy person.
Your expectations need to line up with reality, yes?
(((Dawning)))
Time to stop repeating mistakes......
and make some new ones.
Mo2
ps..... Be angry, get in the shower and keen like a wild animal, get it all out... the kitties won't mind: )
Then turn your energy to something more positive.
Don't suffer that fool man twice.
Once is enough. ::nod::
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Dear Dawning
The man may have been a jerk or may have fallen in love fast and fallen out when he realized you were not perfect i.e. were a real woman,not a fantasy women.
My guess is that he was sincere when he told you all those things but had issues of his own that made him run . You will never know what demons inside himself he might have been fleeing from.
Many men think they have found the perfect women but then when she has flaws(as we all do) or a relationship gets hard( as they all do) he figures that she was not the perfect women after all and goes off looking for another perfect women.
I bet he has a long history of this. Does he? Ami
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Hi Ami,
What you said above is very insightful. The only history I know of his is 1) he fell in love with a woman who dumped him for his best friend when they were all roommates centuries ago. She married the best friend and had two children with him and they are still married. This man and this couple are today very good friends apparently. 2) He has maintained contact with all of his exes. 3) He spoke of their "issues" alot except for the last one before me. He never said anything critical about her. None of these exes have boyfriends/husbands that I know of.
Two nights before he called me to say, "I just want to be friends," he called to say, "I love you and we'll work through this together." I don't know what happened in between. He did say that although no one is perfect, he is looking for someone without any issues. What I told him a few days earlier was that I thought he was stringing me along and that, whenever he spoke about us, he always used the past tense and I wondered why. That made him angry. He said I was mis-reading him.
After this occurrence, he sent me the card. You may be right. And it is up to me to work through this and realize what I've learned.
Other things he said which were weird to me were:
"I let XXXX sleep with me" (before me)
"I'm a good catch."
"I saw XXX the other day but we just saw each other, nothing romantic."
Come to think of it, he was honest with me up until the very end. When I put my heart on the table and spoke of my insecurities, he didn't want anything to do with them. Ever since then, I have been hurt.
I love this board but please go easy on me here. I know I projected what I wanted onto him and that was ridiculous. It is a testament to my own feelings of loneliness, isolation and circumstances. But I couldn't go on much further feeling like I had to carry his weight as well as my own but that's how it felt and I don't know why. When I met him, I was light and easy-going. I didn't jump into things too fast. It was a half year down the road, after we had become friends, that I entered his dwelling (which felt very safe to me) and an expectation was naturally created that something beautiful would happen. There is the truth.
And now this weirdness. I betrayed myself too. But his words still seem hollow to me. I don't know why.
Dawning.
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Hey, hon...
You go easy on yourself too, okay?
I think your anger is natural and I totally understand it. Your pain, too.
I have been so devastated after rejection that I was frightened by my pain.
It shook me to the core a couple times. Once, I didn't want to live it hurt so badly.
The last time, about 5 years ago I think, with the most serious Nman...I did hit bottom.
I never want to lose myself in love again. I just want a companionable, comfortable-shoe kind of love.
More spiritually and community based than romance-based.
I never wanted that before. I wanted something beautiful, special, unique and magical.
I wanted to be swept away by a tide of oneness -- it would cure everything that was wrong with me and give me everything I lacked.
I was sooooo ripe for being used by an Nman. I'm not, now.
I think the man you were with sounds pretty exploitative. I think he also sounds very unaware.
His comments about previous women, and the blockbuster self-absorbed one: I want a woman with no issues.
NO ISSUES! SHOW ME AN ADULT HUMAN BEING WITH NO ISSUES!!!!!!!
MORON!!!!!!!
('Scuse me. Ahem. But that kind of remark kind of annoys me.)
I love your Indian friend. It's really wrong to take advantage of anyone's loneliness.
The worst thing, for me, was being left completely and fully responsible for myself. Emotionally.
I had no choice but to crawl out of it, one jagged knee-drag at a time.
The Amazons helped. A lot.
This may be a chapter heading in your book, dear Dawning...but it ain't the whole story.
love to you, and a big hug and cuppa something,
Hops
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Thanks Hops.
I'm also hurt because I feel dumped for a younger woman - the one he was seeing before me. Whether that is true or not, I don't know.
It is just painfully interesting that he spoke ill of two exes (and now, me) TO ME. He did not speak ill of his love of centuries ago but said that he moved out so she and his best friend could start their coupling and he could preserve the friendship. When he first told me that, I thought it a very noble and admirable thing to do.
Ex #1: he said they fought alot when they lived together but now they are friends. she takes alot of meds, he said.
Ex #2: he said she has "anger issues" and they fought alot.
Me (another EX or just an object?) His projection onto me of the low-maintenance/I -don't- need -to -take -care- o-f he-r feelings woman. More to the point, I don't have to care at all with this one - very convenient. (And I played along for awhile because I didn't think I was worth caring about) When I expressed that I didn't feel cared for, he said he just wanted to be friends.
Chocolate younger babe: He said she was abandoned by her father and showed me pictures of her "holding her little stuffed rabbit" instead of her father who was never around. The care in his voice for this woman was evident. I thought it was noble and admirable to care for someone. I thought he had feelings for me, though, that were just as strong.
NEITHER WAS MINE! MY FATHER EXITED MY LIFE BY CHOICE WHEN I WAS 4 YEARS OLD. I HAD PLENTY OF STUFFED ANIMALS THAT I NEEDED. What this man said to me about that: "Good luck working things out with your dad."
Just need to get alot of this off my chest. Thanks everyone for helping me work through this.
Dawning
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Dear Dawning
I have been thinking of your dilemma today while I was at the dentist. I am going to throw s/thing out and just reject it if it is way off base.
Perhaps, he is a decent guy who just got spooked at the thought of commitment. Then, it escalated out of control with your anger and feelings of betrayal. Perhaps, if he is a good guy, you could back track to just enjoying each other's company .
My feeling is he did care for you but men get spooked easily if they feel a woman is moving faster than they are. This is very common and does not reflect badly on him. The man could say ,"You have too many issues" when really it is that he is afraid. I have heard of relationships that got back together after the man left b/c of fear of commitment. The woman made it known that she was not going to push and he opened himself up again. Then, it could get to a commitment someday in the future at his pace.
I think the man needs to take the lead on any talk of commitment.
Just wanted to share some things you may not have considered.
I have learned a lot from books about what men want in women. It can be very surprising how men think. We can misinterpret them simply b/c men and women think very differently. Love to You, Ami
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Hi Dawning,
If you could go back and read what you wrote....and read it... and add to it ...and read it...And High Light every word where it says..He said.
Now I will tell you that I do have NFriend and This is out of N's mouth to my Ears...
They only know what I tell them. How would they know anything else.
Then hi light about the Ill talk he did about the others to you and You to You
This you Know because He Did It
Just keep reading what you wrote.. Just keep adding....
Don't betray your feelings..They are true to you!
Let us know how you feel after you hi lite...
Love
Deb
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Hey Ami,
With respect...It sounds as if everyone he has known has issues.
Then, it escalated out of control with your anger and feelings of betrayal.
Seems like other women in his life have had the same feelings Anger with him
From Dawning::
Ex #1: he said they fought alot when they lived together but now they are friends. she takes alot of meds, he said.
Ex #2: he said she has "anger issues" and they fought alot.
When I expressed that I didn't feel cared for, he said he just wanted to be friends.
The only history I know of his
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Whoops,
Sorry hit post.
Dawning,
I share your pain. Hops, share's your pain. Many of Us share your Pain.
We have loved a Man that Hurt Us.
Go easy on yourself is Right!!
Love
Deb
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I still need to talk about it, Debkor.
I'm working through it and I don't know how long it will take;
that's why I am glad this board is here.
It is a place I can go for mind water. Anonymously.
Also, there are quite a few posters here whose replies are amazingly insightful.
And a place where no one need edit their words unless they want to.
I've kept alot inside about the last 11 months.
And it needs to come out.
Right here.
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Dear Deb
I am just sharing my insights. Opinions are like noses. Everyone has one and they usually have a few holes in them. Ami
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Dawning,
I did not mean for you to not talk about it. I meant the opposite. I can see after I went back and looked at what I wrote..
Let us know how you feel after you hi lite.
Oh God.. I can see how I made you feel. I am so very sorry for that.
How do I explain this?
I mean sometimes what we feel at the moment or don't know what we feel later on has a whole different Feeling. Things become clear to us. Ah-ha moments.. We begin to put things together.
That is all I meant and with Good Intentions not to Shut you Up and it came out Wrong.. I am sorry.
I meant that you will sort, work though it, heal and will not always feel as you do right now.
And that did sound horrible. I am sorry.
Love
Deb
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pain pain pain
that's where you are right now, Dawning.
I think it's perfectly healthy to rage and blame and be furious and resent his power over your heart and feel the bruise as far as it goes and in a while, in a while, when you begin to look back with less pain and gradually piece it all together...
You'll see his character as it was.
And you'll also no longer let HIS rejection of you become YOUR rejection of you.
It just takes time. It stinks, too. It can hurt so terribly.
Meanwhile, don't worry about being accurate or mature or fair or clever.
You just got blown off in a really sloppy offhanded way by someone you had built dreams about.
Eventually, you'll probably come to believe that would've been a baaaaaaaaad dream if it had come to pass. But right now, you're grieving.
You bonded, you dreamed, you opened and were vulnerable, and he tossed you like an old tissue.
At some point figuring out what HE was thinking or what HIS motivations were might be interesting or useful for you...but right now, imo, it's more important to intentionally inject yourself with a whole lot of comfort, compassion, and sympathy.
You don't need to see it "correctly". Just see yourself truly as a good, hurt person who needs her own kindness.
You will heal, I promise. You will be stronger and you will have peace again. Love, too.
Really.
love and a spongey shoulder....
Hops
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The thing that will take some time is to lighten-up.
I had a rolfing session tonight. Afterwards, we talked about breathing and letting-go.
I HAVE STRONG FEELINGS ABOUT ME. I CARE ABOUT ME. AND I'M WORTH ALL THE BEAUTY THAT THIS UNIVERSE HAS TO OFFER beyond the craziness of I-don't-know-what. So are you. I don't want to become just another self-absorbed Californian. I am really down on the casualness of the people here at the moment; the way relationships are so easily gotten into and out of. I don't want anymore of that. I want long-lasting relationships; a durable pair of shoes. ((((Hops)))))
Thank Gawd for the Internet!
Heave-ho. Live and learn. Patience. Breath. Patience. Breathe. Patience. Breath.
I'm exhausted.
Don't worry about it, Deb.
I sense I will need to write more on this thread.
YES. LOVE.
add on: Yesterday evening, the next level of working through it came up- I feel exploited. Not only in the relationship with him but was particularly acute on the job this year. My first year back in the states was very exploitative in an intense way. Is there any way to lessen/minimize the potential for exploitation when you have no immediate support from friends and family and are seen as alone by traditional forces at work in society? I'm glad I wrote that. Sometimes, seeing it written down and knowing someone else will read it too really, really helps. I don't think people are intentionally cruel but self-absorbtion and MID-LIFE CALIFORNIA MALES are over the top scary to me right now. To be fair, I have been exploited since i was a child and I'll bet there are some others on this board who can relate.
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((((((Dawning))))))
Keep sharing. You are understood. I have been exploited and betrayed by the significant people in my life---M, F and H. It is really hard to graduate from that in to being a person of value and honor(in my own mind)
I feel that I do not deserve it. I feel that I am not entitled to my feelings, thoughts ,wants and needs. I feel like I need to serve others, be an object for others.
Are you making a similar transition ? Ami
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Oh Dawning... it sounds like you're taking a good look at something that matters to you - a hell of a lot. Even through the immediate pain of the relationship stuff. So, yes: breathe, relax, inhale equal to exhale...
There's no starting gun to figuring anything out - and no clock ticking down - and no one to say: Time's UP. Sounds like you know how to work through this... and if you need ears... mine are pretty big, and no, I'm not a vulcan - in this life! :lol:
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I feel like I need to serve others, be an object for others.
Are you making a similar transition ?
Hey Ami - probably, yes. Although I find I can't answer "yes" or "no" these days. It is like I don't know how to feel. However, I've started to get a sense that some of the men in my life see me in terms of a sexual object. The last two men I've spoken with - since this self-examination started - have changed in their language with me. No longer are they nice and kind. Now, one is being critical and the other is stand-offish. I have held my ground and I'm not letting their words enter my body/mind. But it is hard. I think that when they think they can penetrate my heart (ie, SEX) then they think (with their second brain...argh!) that there is something in it for them. Otherwise - forget it. I need to get out more but I'm wary.
There's no starting gun to figuring anything out - and no clock ticking down - and no one to say: Time's UP. {/quote]
PhoenixRising - THANKS! I put alot of pressure on myself. You sensed that and I appreciate your words.
Sounds like you know how to work through this...
What makes you say that? Because, if it were not for this board, I would be in alot worse shape...I can tell ya.
Btw, every post I read makes me cry because I feel cared for here.
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Dawning... ((()))... I just meant that you have all the tools you need and I can relate to your style of processing the "what happened" and "what's really going on". You seem really self-aware and you sound to me, like you're not going to accept the "victim role" that this jerky guy wants you to play. You're already experimenting with different kinds of voice and boundaries with men.
Sure! They're not gonna like it - but then that sort of exposes their real intentions, huh? That said: not all men are like that. I've been blessed with some excellent men friends - true friends. One of them is a real jewel in the rough. He's abrupt, abrasive, and doesn't mince words for political correctness - or tact. We were both working in tech jobs and mine was more support oriented. I told him I felt that the more I supported people and worked on creating good working relationships, the more they wanted to abuse and take advantage of me... even attacking me for doing my job. His response was priceless:
He said: I figure the more people don't like me, the better I'm doing my job (safeguarding the network and enforcing the rules of that). And then he added: my self-esteem doesn't require that OTHER people like me. I have to like me.
A light-bulb went on - AHA!!! And I realized I had to separate how I valued myself - from people's reactions to me. Not become a nasty, mean person... but not always see myself as needing to accomodate every single request immediately... to qualify for "doing my job well". I could set boundaries and not let people "beat me up" just because they weren't following directions, didn't take any training, and as result, became frustrated with the technology. I think I need to be reminded of this kind of thing every so often; it's just not something that's built-in to my psyche... and that's when I need that kind of friend!
There are many, many kinds of people in the world with many, many styles of interacting. But, I'm finding that the number of motivations in those interactions aren't so limitless. In romantic relationships, there tend to be a lot of power subtexts or motivations. I'm usually guilty of completely giving up power (self-esteem; self-boundaries) in exchange for "love". Fortunately, my husband doesn't accept that; it's not the way he "plays". Even though, in the past, he was quite the "love 'em & leave 'em" sex-hound he has changed - maybe as we've grown together; maybe some things he learned on his own.
My motivation was always to melt away into an "us" until I existed womb-like in a mutally loving and permanent relationship. I've only recently realized (this is my 3rd marriage and there were other significant relationships) that I get closer to that "feeling" and it's more real, if I strengthen my own self-boundaries and worry less if I'm meeting his every expectation of me (as I imagine it), paradoxical as that is. There has to be a pretty solid me... before there's an us.
But that's me... not you. So keep on telling your story... we need to find you a happy ending! (coz there will be a sequel or a new chapter) ;)
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Dear Dawning,
There are several things I see from your interactions on the Board. You stand up for yourself very well. You set boundaries . I think you are getting in touch with your inner core. That is the definition of health, as I see it. I lost that connection with my core self as an adolescent. I have been trying to reconnect since . It has been my passion but it has been very hard to feel a sense of it again. I lost trust in my essential goodness when my M threw her split off self(bad self) on me.Then, I was just running away from the bad me by trying to be perfect. I thought I had to be false or people would treat me with the rejection my M did.
I am doing Kundilini Yoga.
It puts me in touch with the essence of me.You seem to be on a similar journey. Ami
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I don't think of myself as a victim.
But I came dangerously close to calling him last night.
During the "I just want to be friends" call, he also said, "I don't want you to feel like you can't call me."
It is just a need I have to be close to someone who doesn't want to be close to me. Calling him feels like the worst thing I could do to myself right now.
One thing I know is that if I am scared to call him or anyone, if it takes too much effort or my gut instinct tell me no - I intend to listen. I don't what happened last night and why I felt so close to picking up the phone. After all, he did say I could call him. :?
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Dear Dawn
This is my opinion . IF you want to go forward in a relationship with him, I think you have an excellent chance of resurrecting it and it having a better ending.
I think you moved a little too fast for him and scared him off(as many women do)
Women are wired differently when it come to commitments. It is our biology.
I think you should call and just be light ,breezy and friendly.Let him start wanting to be involved with the great person YOU are, which I can tell you are.
You have a lot to offer. Act with confidence that he is fortunate to be spending time with you.
Let him make the moves as he did when he said you could call. Let him take the lead and see what happens.
Does any of it sound workable to you? Ami
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Dear Ami,
I'd like to go forward with him in a friendship but I guess I'm not ready yet to open myself up again. The last time I did that - and literally put my heart on the table, he blew me off and ended the initmacy which is really what I miss. My gut instinct tells me not to call. My trust in his words is not there anymore. I want to believe he is a nice guy and my need for intimacy fuels my impulse to call. The fact is that he needs to prove to me that he is a nice guy (if he wants to be a nice guy in my life) and I can have intimacy without sex as long as it's real and not contrived.
He can call me/email me when he can muster up the courage to do so. And I am learning - ever so slowly - that to wait for this is self-destructive.
I'm also not ready to be social right now.
Maybe when all of this passes and my life has changed, I can call him. But everyday that goes by and I don't hear from him is damaging to any hope of a friendship. The ball is in his court now. And if he ignores that ball or doesn't see its worth, then it will be his loss in the end.
I had a nice conversation on the phone last night with a fellow in Atlanta. Too bad he doesn't live around here.
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Dear Dawning
You have a point. Let him call if he wants to go forward. If he wants to go forward badly enough he will call. If not, then it is better to let it go than have him lukewarm or you having to make all the moves.
You have good sense , Dawning.
A big part of my journey is learning to trust myself after my trust in myself was derailed by my NM. I think you are listening to the still small voice within.
If we have that, we have so much.Honestly, I would rather have myself than a relationship. My first goal is to find my solidity. I have lived being empty for so long. It is a lot easier to find a relationship, even with a wonderful guy, than to find myself.I want to feel a sense of self and no one can give it to me. That is the sad part, but the good part ,too.
Ami
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My gut instinct tells me not to call. My trust in his words is not there anymore. I want to believe he is a nice guy and my need for intimacy fuels my impulse to call.
Dawning, my opinion:
Trust your guts.
Appreciate your intelligence about the need...and set about creating OTHER space/s in your life where you can experience closeness. In 3-D.
Even if it's a talk-group of Amazons, a meeting of some kind.
Something where people share at a real level.
If it's touch you miss...go give some.
So many young, old, animal bodies will respond gratefully.
The other kind, you'll have again.
He may have gotten your bonding hormones for a time.
But he doesn't deserve to keep them.
I respect your decision not to call and from all my repeated and repeated and repeated experiences of finding rationalizations to pursue men who had distanced themselves...
I can say I wish I had had the dignity to cut it cleanly, and never call, write, post-mortem, any of it...anything that left me yearning.
If you will weather it, it will pass. Just like weather.
love
Hops
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I think you have a really good point about our dignity, Hops.
I think a man wants us to have dignity and a sense of self if he loves us and is a quality man.
For me ,dignity was lost a long time ago. It is a hard struggle to believe I deserve dignity and self regard. However, that is the more basic struggle than any relationship and the hardest. Ami
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I respect your decision not to call and from all my repeated and repeated and repeated experiences of finding rationalizations to pursue men who had distanced themselves...
I can say I wish I had had the dignity to cut it cleanly, and never call, write, post-mortem, any of it...anything that left me yearning.
If you will weather it, it will pass. Just like weather.
Thank you, Hops. This is very, very wise advice. I feel that by distancing myself, I am proving that I am worth something to me. Back in 1998, something similar happened to me. Then again in 2004. And now - similar parallels - in 2009. What I am doing now is allowing myself to evolve, at my own pace into a place of genuine understanding about the whole situation. In 1998 and 2004, I pursued men who had distanced themselves (after sexual intimacy) and this DID occur at the expense of my own dignity. In fact, it made the situation down-right ugly. In one case, my neediness opened me up to a full blown out explitative relationship that damn near destroyed my self-respect. In the other, the man got so fed-up with my insistence on pursuing a friendship (after sex) that he knocked me down! Having shared this, the only way to let go of 1998 and 2004 is to not repeat a similar strategy (however enfused with good intentions it may be :() in 2009. It IS like the development and learning of "new pathways in the brain," as Dr. G said. It is almost revolutionary. Once one lets go of sad/horrifying situations of the past, one is not likely keep getting involved in them again. And this all sounds so good - written down like this - the fact is that 1) I am learning that to be slightly misanthropic is okay - it does not make me a recluse and it is not a pathology 2) what is important is the here and now 3) evaluating what people say or write is a powerful asset, although damn painful at times.
The weather analgoy is superb!
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Thinking of you, Dawning. Did you stay with your plan about contacting him? How are you feeling about it all? Ami
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Hi Ami :D et al,
Here is where it stands: I breathe in and say, "the next one will be better." and I breathe out and say, "let go."
I still wake up in the middle of the night with a heavy heart. I sure wish that would go away. It will - like the seasons. Here, there are only two: winter, summer and the Santa Ana winds. I don't know why but I don't like those winds.
Two things I have are vulnerability and courage. Once I figure out a way to reconcile them, I'll be much happier.
p.s. one day after his blunt phone call (towards the end of last month) a friend came to stay with me from overseas. We are purely platonic but HE'S STILL HERE. I told him last Friday that he had to leave at beginning of June because I need my own space. Now, he's staying away all day and only comes back to sleep. Should I think of him as a friend?
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Dear (((Dawning)))
The hardest relationship is the one with myself. It is so hard to love and honor myself when I was brainwashed with messages of worthlessness. My life problems seem to stem from that error in the way I view myself. It seems like you are having the same revelations.
I don't really understand the question about your friend.
Do you feel he is not a friend but using you for a hotel?
It does seem that way on the surface.
I have learned from a wise friend of mine to check things out, to ask your friend,point blank what is going on. Maybe, he feels rejected. Maybe,he had deeper feelings for you.
Sometimes, we are so surprised at what another person is thinking when we have the courage to ask. It takes courage, for sure,but I have usually been happy when I did.
In my family, you could not check anything out. You would be rejected .Now, I can and when I care about s/one, I do. What is a relationship worth if you can't be honest. Tell me what you think .
Love to you , Ami
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It takes great courage to be vulnerable - especially "again" - after incurring a painful end to a relationship. That's one way to reconcile the two.
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I've decided to stay home tonight.
My friend who is staying here is starting to consume the space. It's not his fault. I get angry and frustrated when he does chores around here without being asked. Or when I think he assumes he knows more about my household than I do. But he's basically a nice person, hasn't made a pass at me and (when I'm in the mood) we can have certain types of conversations that usually have to do with obscure people who were teachers of Plato or Socrates or have been left out of history books. In a month, he will go back to Africa.
I've been thinking about the phrase, "you get what you give." sometimes it just doesn't make sense to me. i'm having trouble seeing the silver lining.
The heavy heart thing is not as bad as it was two weeks ago. Although I still wake up and feel old; very, very old.
i live in a small town. today i went to the hot springs and no one was there so i got in naked. 30 minutes later, a high school student at the private school where i teach showed up. i got out and left immediately. i don't like walking on egg shells. sometimes, i don't want to go outside because i'll just get in trouble.
i feel unwanted a lot of the time. there, i've said it.
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Hi Dawning,
I believe that saw "you get what you give" is a setup.
I think what the truth is, "you get what you give yourself."
If you give yourself compassion and love and comfort (see, that's not selfishness), I believe you'll attract it.
So if it's compassionate to set boundaries in one way or another, or to go out in the world to find positive friends and company because you're lonely...
Then you're loving yourself.
Compassion
love
comfort
Give that to yourself.
See what happens.
love,
Hops