Voicelessness and Emotional Survival Message Board
Voicelessness and Emotional Survival => Voicelessness and Emotional Survival Message Board => Topic started by: kelly on September 22, 2004, 08:12:12 PM
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Hello All! I'm relatively new to this but please hear me out.....
Some of you may have heard me say that I have worked "with" (and I'll use that term lightly, since I really work for her - and she wants me to be a puppet..............) my mom for over 10 years and it drives me crazy. Most have said, Go! No amount of money is worth losing your soul for.
So I have a job interview on Friday and am looking elsewhere. The problem is I have done this before. I left my job and took a small cut in pay. My new job worked me five days a week. Both weekend days. The other three days usually amounted to a 9:45 am to 9:15 pm schedule. I left because the hours were too demanding for me with three children and a new husband (I had been married two weeks when I took the job.) I only lasted a month and quit and asked my mom if I could come back.
My hours at our business are 9 am to 3 pm Monday through Friday. Great hours and great pay. I can pretty much come and go as I please. I can attend any classroom party for my kids, dental appointments, doctor appointments, etc. I can take vacation whenever I want.
My dilemma is this. Should I stay or should I go? I have everything I've ever wanted at this job - except my N mother who "says" she is in semi-retirement, etc. I watch her self-promote within the industry, calling anyone who is anyone and volunteers for boards and committees, etc. Then she comes to me and others for the right words to say while at the board meeting. She makes my life a living hell. BUT - money, hours, some freedom. Condemnation, guilt, shame. Constant fighting.
New job. New kid on the block. Learning curve is steep. No vacation. Don't know about the pay yet. I'm thinking if I get the job I'll only take it if the pay is better than what I have now and the hours are not too demanding. Been married a couple of years now and the kids are older. One is driving.
Any suggestions???
Kelly
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Hi K,
Some mothers with school age kids opt for a school-based job (great hours and benefits) so they have same vacation days and hours...you don't necessarily have to work at the same school (gets cozy sometimes). Just a thought.
Seeker
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Thanks, Seeker, but again I run into the pay issue. My husband and I have financial obligations that need to be met - plus my oldest starts college next year and there is that......................so, unless they make me vice principal I don't think that will work. But thanks!
Kelly
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What does your husband say?
bunny
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Well, he just wants me to be happy. He said we could trade in our van for a cheap car to elimate a car payment. He has never been one who wants to get anything from my parents but I have always held out hope that I might get some inheritance.................but when I read all the posts about old aged Nmoms it makes me think I might spend the next 25 years miserable with my mom. By then I'll be 80 and my whole life will full of the angst I have felt for all of my adult years (and the angst I felt as a child but I couldn't put my finger on the feeling..........) I mean, I spend my whole life being groomed by my mother to dress like her and act like her and be like her and she spends her whole life being mad at me because I don't want to. She considers it rebellious (can you be rebellious at 45?) or disrespectful (is disagreeing=disrepect?)
So my husband is on my side, but if I leave and things don't work out the way we had planned then he gets on my case and makes my life miserable from another side............................can't win for losing.
Best case scenario. Quit. Love the new job. End of story.
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Hi there Kelly,
I'm finding your post almost spooky, due to how similiar our stories area.
My mom is the major N in my life. She too is the founder of my family's business. I have 2 young children that just last September started school. My hours were 9-3pm (in order to get the kids), and I was also granted as much flexibility as I needed. If there was a function at school...it wasn't a problem. I could work anywhere else and have the flexibility that I did there. Of couse, there's a price to pay with what seemed to be an ideal relationship. My mother is a classic control freak and this was also an ideal situation for her to know exactly what I was up to. Not to mention she also offered my husband a job as well. We came to learn a few months after he started that she never hired my husband based on his job performance or experience. She ultimately offered him a job because she was not happy with the fact that he previously worked as an executive in a company that required him to travel about 75% of the year. Yes, this was very hard on me/us, but we were managing. I guess my mother felt that the travel was completely unacceptable, and offered him the job to more or less make sure he was home for me and she again, could be involved in every detail of our lives.
I should have also explained prior to this info that my mother has NEVER liked my husband. Her reasons have been made very clear....he's not of the same religion as I am. As well as, he's been one of few people that has disagreed with my mother. He hasn't ever been afraid to go head to head with her, and this just enrages her more.
So, after 8 months of working with her daily (forgot to mention that I have always had a rocky relationship with her since childhood), I couldn't bare another day. I resigned and left. Well what do you think happened next? She FIRED my husband a month later!!!! She terminated him with a ready to go legal contract drawn up by her lawyers. The contract stipualted that he was not to pursue emplyee in a similiar industry along the eastern seaboard for 2 years!!!!! Along with many other crazy/sick stipulations. He was made to turn in his computer, had to hand in his key to the building, and was ushered out like a common criminal!!!! He was made to return to the office that evening to collect his personal belonging (which I might add...my parents both met him there and watched over him the whole time)!!! My mother proceeded to change the garage code at their house to prevent my husband from entering their home and possibly tearing the place up!!!
So...bottom line...this was the straw that broke my back. She took away our financial stability, has made no attempt to apologize. She feels justified in doing all of this. Has made no attempt to try and salvage a relationship with me. It took 31 years to figure out what she was (mind you this was before this incident) and mourn the dream of having that fairy tale picture of what I wanted her to be. I was well on my way to feeling good for the first time in my life. In a cetain way, I'm almost happy this awful event happened. It was just what I needed to cut the cord for good. I no longer have much of a relationship with my parents. I've been happier and working hard on being a better me. A final word of advice...
DO NOT WORK IN A FAMILY BUSINESS!!!! ESPECIALLY WITH A FAMILY MEMBER THAT'S AN N!!!!!!
I hope all works out for you.
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StaceyLynn: Well, Stacey, you are the second person in this forum who has had similar stories as mine. The other gal, Ellie, had the religion stuffed down her throat, similar to mine. And you? What are you doing now? You and your husband are struggling? But it's worth it?
Originally the business was bought "for" my husband (ex) and I. She got involved because my ex was incompetent (and he was.) He left me for another woman earlier in our marriage and my mother jumped in and convinced him to go to inpatient counseling. She spent thousands of dollars trying to "fix" him so that her daughter wouldn't have to go through a divorce (and somehow tarnish the family name.) So I stayed with him an additional five years - very unhappy - but I did what my mother wanted. Then someone I trusted gave me "permission" to divorce him. I needed permission. My Nmom wouldn't do it! And I was so controlled by her. Felt tied to her monetarily, etc.
So then I started dating a very messed up alcoholic guy. At first she wanted nothing to do with him and didn't give me her "blessing" on that relationship. He didn't work after his divorce (loser.) He went to my mom and told her he could help turn our business around. She hired him and had him move into her basement. He lived there over a year rent free. Meanwhile, I broke up with him and wanted him out of the business. My mom sided with him and tried to "fix" him too. She got him in to inpatient counseling for his alcohol addiction and he lived on disability insurance that the business provided for over a year. This is when I went over the deep end. Two times in my life she had gotten involved in my relationships and took over and tried to fix the men. Yes, I had made poor choices - I admit that. But when she jumped in the second time I lost it! I blew up!! I mean really blew up. I yelled and screamed and slammed doors. I laid in bed and cried and cried and cried. That's when I went and got the other job which held me hostage morning til night.......so I went back.
For awhile my mom and I just didn't talk about anything personal. I married a man who she didn't approve of (again - he's a Lutheran, they're not......................plus I didn't let her get anywhere near him...didn't invite her to the wedding, etc.) We just kind of non-communicated. I tried to be nice. I sent her a card telling her I loved her. I just thought maybe I could kill her with kindness and it would turn our relationship around. Well, then she called me into her office and asked me why I held her at arms length and why we couldn't have a close, intimate relationship and I basically said, because I cannot trust you to not get too involved in my life so I choose to keep you away. I have stopped going to her church. She thinks I am bad because I don't force my kids to get up and go to Sunday School and church and Wednesday night church, etc. Then I realized that she never got involved in my life at all when I was a child except for the church thing. We had to go to church all the time, but she never went to a parent/teacher conference or to a class party or anything else. Just church.
So are you saying that I should run as fast as I can the other way regardless of the strain it may put on me and my family???
Kelly
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Kelly,
What jumps out at me in your story and StaceyLynn's is the issue of separation-individuation. This is what makes it tough to separate even if you want to. It causes the massive ambivalence. Your mothers did not allow you as toddlers to separate/individuate because they could not tolerate it. The mothers were the cause of this problem and they can't separate to this day. But people CAN achieve separation-individuation as adults. I did! My suggestion is to see a really good therapist. It can help tremendously.
bunny
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Bunny: Yes, I have been to a therapist and individuation is a big one. But with me, she wasn't even there as a child. I remember one time when I was about 6 she was at college and the neighbor was supposed to watch me after kindergarten but I went home and the neighbor let me. I remember climbing up to the top of the cabinets and ate a bunch of chewable vitamins - my mom was off getting her college degree - on her way to making it! We were just a bother to her and her road to fame and fortune.
The emeshment came when I grew up. In my 20s she started to really impose herself and her wishes on me. She infiltrated all areas of my life. I didn't even realize it. It was almost like she made it impossible to do anything, or make any decision without her. And if I did then the guilt and shame messages came through STRONG.
So, yes, I am screwed up. And the separation and individuation is so hard - especially on her - because to her it is out and out rejection! She can't stand it. Then she cannot understand how I could do this to her when she has given me so much money. Almost like, "this is how I get thanked for all I've done.......nothing but resentment and disrespect."
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Kelly,
Please don't take this wrong. I couldn't grow up until I "got it" about my mother and started seperating from her. It's essential to do this. You must have an identity of your own.
Be creative. If you really want this, get rid of things you can live without. There are a bunch of things you really don't need...pare down. You really can do it if you put some effort and thought into it. Make sacrifices. This is what adults do. What if that business were gone tommorrow? You would need to do something different. And you would find that you could indeed do it. But it may require some tough decisions.
Look at: telephone (do you need a bunch of extra services really?)
cell phone...get rid of it if it's expensive
cable...again, do you need all the channels you don't watch anyway?
Pets? Can you find a good home for one or two if you have more than you can handle comfortably?
groceries?
Refinance the house to a lower rate if possible.
Cars? Get rid of expensive car payments and get a used car.
People sometimes think they can't live without this stuff. We've been barraged with ads saying we need all this stuff and we just don't. It will be worth it if you can get your identity (soul) back from your destructive mom and it might make you more resolute with dealing with your husband if he complains about it as well.
Kelly, YOU need to do this for YOU!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
I hope I don't sound too bossy (I do a have a tendancy to state things in a "damn the torpedoes" fashion), but it sounds like your house has been on fire and you're letting it burn and staying inside to consume the flames.
Good luck to you.
MM
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Hi Kelly,
I just wanted to chime in with this tiny bit. Even if you found a job that was better than your current job with your Nmom, separating from her would be hard. Going through the process of letting go (of soooo many things, like hopes that things will get better), is very hard. But it has to be done.
I hear you thinking about your kids and trying to make sound financial plans regarding their education, but what about the example you're setting for them? What are you teaching them by continuing to work with your Nmom?
And what about you? As you said, you've been reading about all these aging Nmoms (oh, and I'm convinced they'll outlive us all for sheer stubbornness :roll: I've got a grandNmom proving my point as we speak), and you're worried that you'll be old yourself by the time you receive the inheritance. But just consider this. What's more important, money or knowing who you are?
Being around an N sucks the life out of you, the YOU out of you. When you're beginning to learn about the effects of an N, it can be so disorienting and scary - and I know some who'd sometimes rather go back to the comfort of where things were before because it's what they know. How much harder will this be if you're still interacting with your Nmom every day of the week?
So what's more important? A job that fits your shedule and income requirements, or setting a good example for your children by finding the courage to find yourself?
If your husband really wants you to be happy, then he'll understand that the path to your happiness (and ultimately your happiness together) depends on you finding your way through some tough times ahead.
But as tough as this process may be, there are so many here to help you through the rough patches. :D
Best wishes,
Wildflower
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Guys and Gals: I appreciate the encouragement. This forum has been the only place I have seen and heard people talk each other up and not judge. That is so refreshing.
Scary? You bet. Scary to go. Scary to stay. I am so used to having my mother meddle in my life and when I finally think I am getting a reprieve, she's back for more.
My aunt discribed how she feels when she is in the same room with my mom (my mom's little sister.) They were making plans for an uncle and the three siblings were in the room together. My aunt said she felt like when my mother walked into the room it was like she was a huge elephant which took up all the space and my aunt was squashed underneath her. Anything she added to the conversation was interrupted and changed and my aunt is 57 years old!!! Still hasn't "earned" the right for a voice!!
I'm moving that way!
Kelly
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This is Kelly, again. Well I picked up my daughter at school for an ortho appointment and my mom called me on the (expensive!!) cell phone. I think my heart started racing........................all she said is that she would pick up my daughter from school if I wanted her to. Then she started asking me about work today and we had a half hour phone conversation about work. And that is how it has been for years. If we are away from work we talk about work. If we are at work, we talk about work. I see her almost everyday. It's better now that I don't go to church with her. She used to call me on Saturdays and ask if I wanted to go shopping or something. It is a pretty bad entanglement - but getting better. And I think all the encouragement I am receiving from all of you will help me get my life under control and point me in the right direction!!
Need to jump out of that burning house and save my life! But you know, whenever I talk to my 17 year old daughter about my mom she tells me to get over myself and stop whining!! Unfortunately I think she is a carbon copy of my mother!!
Kelly
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Then she cannot understand how I could do this to her when she has given me so much money. Almost like, "this is how I get thanked for all I've done.......nothing but resentment and disrespect."
Has a therapist helped you to withstand her acting out? That's how to win with an N: withstand their temper tantrums, sulking, and guilt-tripping. Don't let them see you upset by it. You can be upset by it, but only show the vulnerability to the therapist and safe people. When the N sees that you are not falling apart because of their acting out and not losing it, sometimes they actually start showing respect.
bunny
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Need to jump out of that burning house and save my life! But you know, whenever I talk to my 17 year old daughter about my mom she tells me to get over myself and stop whining!! Unfortunately I think she is a carbon copy of my mother!!
Teens tend to be narcissistic by definition. I personally wouldn't confide in her about her grandmother. There is a bit of a boundary issue there. She shouldn't be involved in her mom's problems. Know what I mean?
bunny
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Kelly,
I understand that your dilemma is hard and scary - stay with Nmom or leave and disrupt your life. I was dependent on my parents for years.
Of course only you can make that decision. A question we can ask ourselves in situations like this is: What is the cost of staying dependent on Nparents? Is the inheritance and financial security -- which could go away -- and aren't guaranteed -- worth what you are paying in untold and unaccounted ways. I now know what they mean by "there is no free lunch."
Need to jump out of that burning house and save my life! But you know, whenever I talk to my 17 year old daughter about my mom she tells me to get over myself and stop whining!! Unfortunately I think she is a carbon copy of my mother!!
I know that it is stereotypical for teens to rebel, but I heard alarm bells at your daughter's words. Does she see your mom as the head of your family? Maybe she sees everything, life style, etc coming from grandma. Grandma's money might mean security to her too. Grandma may be golden to her.
I was in this type of dependent position for many years and it isn't easy and wasn't easy at first to break away. But things have come to light as we continue to break away. My son told me that grandma told him, when he was young, to obey her and to not obey me. This explains a lot of his behavior through the years. It is too late, and I can't turn back the clock on everything. My daughter's self esteem was ruined by my Nmom's doubt. Ngrandma was covertly abusive to my children.
But, we are starting to heal and things are getting healthier and better. I'd say it has been worth it for us to break away from N grandparents.
Maybe your mom is less destructive than my parents.
Best wishes for your precious family.
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My mom is great to my kids. Oh, my 17 year old sees a bit of her "methods" when I am out of town and she has to stay with gparents. The kids love me but they do see grandma as their "sugar mamma." Grandma buys most of their clothes, hair cuts and pays for their private school (which I wouldn't care about and she knows it so she doesn't hold the tuition over my head.)
Thanks for ALL the insights.....it helps!
Off for awhile!
Kelly
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My mom is great to my kids. Oh, my 17 year old sees a bit of her "methods" when I am out of town and she has to stay with gparents. The kids love me but they do see grandma as their "sugar mamma." Grandma buys most of their clothes, hair cuts and pays for their private school (which I wouldn't care about and she knows it so she doesn't hold the tuition over my head.)
Thanks for ALL the insights.....it helps!
Off for awhile!
Kelly
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Another thing I am noticing about most of the people in the forum is that they have already made the leap - or at least some of you. I realized after reading the last couple of posts that I am scared. I am so scared. After my last bad experience, I am even more apprehensive to make a move. But the mere thought of spending just one more day working with my mom makes me sick.
So guess what I did yesterday? Bought two lottery tickets. I have never bought a lottery ticket in my life. So I am hoping beyond hope that some miracle happens and I win so I can just walk away without looking back. I even daydream about putting money into the business so it can thrive. Isn't that sick, stupid behavior? Like I think I am going to win? But I guess it gives me hope.....................................
And yes, my daughter thinks my mom is the head of the family. EVERYONE thinks she is the head of the family. Everyone goes to her to bail them out of financial situations.
Yesterday I noticed that she had bought a couple of self help books and I thought, "Do you think she is trying to understand herself and better herself?" Well, that was shortlived when I found out she bought them for my cousin and his wife (who are having marital difficulties and are (guess what?) living in her basement.) Yep, she's trying to "fix" their relationship like she tried to fix mine. It doesn't surprise me. It infuriates me! And are they so stupid to fall into the same trap I fell into twice? Well that shows you what I call myself - stupid! And the rest of the family (for the most part) are stupid, too!!!
Even my brother who has totally gone the opposite way of what she wanted, goes to her for money. His business was experiencing some down times so he put her on the board and asked her to underwrite some loans.
Well, the more I read, the more I write and the more I pray............gives me the courage to make a move. I am going slow, making sure that everything is lined up - all my ducks in a row, and then I am gone! Help me, Lord, and let me win that lottery!!!
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Hi Kelly,
So guess what I did yesterday? Bought two lottery tickets. I have never bought a lottery ticket in my life. So I am hoping beyond hope that some miracle happens and I win so I can just walk away without looking back. I even daydream about putting money into the business so it can thrive. Isn't that sick, stupid behavior? Like I think I am going to win?
Maybe those lottery tickets are symbols. Hang on to them. As keepsakes. As symbols of you making an investment in yourself, your future. You most likely won't win. Don't be downhearted when you don't. Instead, turn those tickets into what they are - symbols of a dream you want to make happen. Buying them made a statement. Maybe your unconcsious made that statement? Like 'get me out of this life, it's making me ill'. It can be good to listen to your unconscious.
And scared is good too! It signals change and change is great! Scared is an appropriate feeling, I get scared all the time. Much better than being stuck in the anxiety-ridden status-quo.
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Being around an N sucks the life out of you, the YOU out of you.
You are SO right about that. I think I've spent most of my life thinking that by winning a few crumbs of my Nmom's approval, or by not bringing her wrath down on my head, I had accomplished something. And that took the place, in my deluded head, of actually accomplishing anything.
I have been trying to figure out my father, who was a gentle man, and how he could have tolerated all he did from my mother, and I realize that it might have been that false sense of accomplishment. His goal in life was to keep her safe and comfortable because she had convinced him that his value as a human being depended on just that. And all he got for it in the end was her rage because he couldn't do it anymore.
Well, that was a little off the subject but I've been reading this thread with considerable interest. Kelly, you have a difficult choice ahead of you and I hope you can work it out. Loss of that sense of security is hard enough, and made harder by the fact that your Nmother is providing a sense of security, real or not, to your children as well. Which might make you the bad guy if you rock the boat. But I can tell you from experience that no one is going to thank you if you don't. They might just think you've been a fool.
Like I said, I know from experience :(
Singer
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What's more important? Your sanity or your materialism? I would find a new job - not tomorrow - but now! Do not sacrifice another minute of your life to that psychic vampire.
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Hello,
wrote a super long post and lost it, darn! So I'll respond to some earlier posts. Agree that sanity is more important. however, we all do what we believe we need to do to survive. Kelly may feel her survival is tied to her mother's largesse.
It is scary to realize the enormity of the challenge Kelly has. It shows a lot of courage to face up to it. It doesn't count as courage if we're not scared! But make a long term plan, Kelly, get a financial mentor or whatever support you need and create smaller steps to make it doable. Reward yourself every step of the way.
Hopefully you will see a path to independence with some planning and outside encouragement, K. People admire independence and courage. You will admire yourself! :) That is the key to releasing yourself from your mother's "golden handcuffs". If you have a plan, it will be less scary. It may not happen overnight, but you can do it if you start with doable steps. Eg start saving some of the big pay, invest in your own real estate (without help from your mom!!). etc etc.
Good luck. Seeker
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Scary? The more I think about it the more scary it is. I had my job interview today and it wasn't right - AT ALL! But at least I made the step. Have a couple more resumes out there and am hoping for a follow up phone call which will lead down another path. No path is workable unless it is the right path. My head is spinning thinking about it all. In a way I feel sorry for my mom. I know she will freak if I leave again. But I won't leave again unless it is right. So I guess I just bide my time and hope for more encouragement from all of you.
Most people I know will NOT understand, afterall my Nmom is so well thought of in our community that everyone will think that I am the one with a problem. I guess that is what makes it the hardest. The fact that from all outward appearances I am the one who has a problem. But no one around here realizes that the problem with me is her. For all of my decisions to break away, there will be another person who feels sorry for poor old Kelly, the lost child!!! (Adult!)
Lord, help me to persevere until the right thing comes along!
Kelly
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Hi Kelly,
How are you doing?
Maybe those lottery tickets are symbols. Hang on to them. As keepsakes. As symbols of you making an investment in yourself, your future. You most likely won't win. Don't be downhearted when you don't. Instead, turn those tickets into what they are - symbols of a dream you want to make happen. Buying them made a statement. Maybe your unconcsious made that statement? Like 'get me out of this life, it's making me ill'. It can be good to listen to your unconscious.
It is scary to realize the enormity of the challenge Kelly has. It shows a lot of courage to face up to it. It doesn't count as courage if we're not scared! But make a long term plan, Kelly, get a financial mentor or whatever support you need and create smaller steps to make it doable. Reward yourself every step of the way.
I just wanted to chime in again and say this is such great advice (lots of great advice here, but these two bits really hit me). I'm sorry about the interview today, but the important part is that you've taken a step in the right direction. Even if it takes you a while to get it right, if you're making plans (maybe you and your H can work together on this), it's a step in the right direction. Until the day you can finally break free. :D And maybe there are some small, subtle ways you can slowly minimize your Nmom's contact with you and your family.
In a way I feel sorry for my mom. I know she will freak if I leave again
I think I know how that feels. I mean, it's your mom, right? And of course she'll be upset if you leave. But why will she be upset? Is she missing YOU or is this really all about her? If you can, try this. If she's anything like the N's in my life, she may throw fits if you pull away even just a little. And if she does, watch her. Listen. What you see may help steel you against future fits and remind you that the only person you should be worried about right now is you. Especially that little lost Kelly.
I know all this stuff can be overwhelming (you shoulda seen me in April :roll:), but take heart that you're worth it. Your family is worth it. :D
Take care,
Wildflower
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Want to cry with all the support. Just want to say that every one of you who have given me these words of encouragement have really helped me cope with all this angst.
I want an easy fix (the lotto winning!) I want to pray to God to get me out of this mess. Although my parents shoved religion down my throat, I still have a basic belief in God. But then I start thinking if I give money to the church, then God will get me out of this mess - almost like "buying" his blessing. Then I feel foolish for thinking I can manipulate God.
Part of that comes from the "brainwashing" I received all my life. And I do believe it is brainwashing. Why else would my cognitive mind KNOW something is true but my subconcious mind still recoils at the thought of it!!
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Hi Kelly,
I can understand this completely:
everyone will think that I am the one with a problem.
This DID happen to me. And I survived it. My NSIL spread vicious lies about me and my family all over the place. Actually did me a favor in that people knew I would have nothing to do with her anymore, once things blew up in her own house. Time was on my side. In hindsight, I wish I was calm enough to sensibly answer nosy questions.
In your case, I think time is on your side too. If people ask you what "the problem" is, you can simply say, I just need some breathing room, or I want to spread my wings a bit more, or whatever feels natural and truthful and not hurtful. It doesn't necessarily have to be a reflection on your relationship (although Ns always take it this way).
In truth, you ARE the one with a problem and you are trying to solve it. What's wrong with that?
:wink: Seeker
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I had my job interview today and it wasn't right - AT ALL!
Kudos to you for going to an interview! Job interviews are like blind dates. You just have to get through them and with experience they're easier. And I met my H on a blind date...you never know what's around the corner. :lol:
In a way I feel sorry for my mom. I know she will freak if I leave again.
My mother has freaked at several things I did. And I mean FREAKED. Guess what, she got over it. Ns always do.
One thing is that your salary/possible inheritance symbolizes "maternal caring" to you, so of course it's hard to separate from that. It seems like you are the unnatural one to turn your back on the only mothering you can get out of her. But if you get a new job, she'll still be your mother and I actually think you will still have a relationship.
And if you don't find a better job, there may be ways to defuse the relationshp with your mother and make it far less dramatic than it now is. I don't know how often you see a therapist but that makes a big difference.
bunny
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Well, unfortunately my 17 year old keeps coming into the room when I am posting and I am sure she has figured out by now how to find this forum - which means my thoughts expressed here will now have to stop...because now I know someone can read this....................so no more opportunity to vent to a bunch of strangers that can support me....and no place to cry and complain and whine..........................another example of my voicelessness. Another opportunity for my voice to be heard - SQUASHED. Stolen by you, daughter!!
If anyone would like to continue you could give me a message in my INBOX! Kelly
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Oh, by the way, I haven't figured out how to log in and get you to know who I am. My username is kellydckm, but I have been posting under Kelly...............Inbox for more advise if you want - to keep you-know-who from reading it!
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Kelly,
I am sure she has figured out by now how to find this forum - which means my thoughts expressed here will now have to stop...because now I know someone can read this
It is sad that your daughter doesn't respect your privacy. She must not respect your privacy for you to go to the pm system.
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Nope. No boundaries in this family. I told her to get out of here and she said, "obviously you have something to hide, and what is this voicelessness and emotional whatever........................?"
But if I came near her when she was online....................
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((((Kelly)))))
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Well, I think the log in advise worked!! Thanks! And thanks for the hug, too! I just hope that all this forward thinking to a future and a hope will get me to where I want to go. I want to have a good relationship with all but I feel a bit cynical sometimes.
Also, the daughter has expressed an interest in a Psychology major so some of these issues may be of interest to her. Boy, when I was her age I had no idea I was screwed up. Never heard of codependent or dysfunction - just figured everyone was that way. And being a "rich" kid seemed to have its benefits.......a new car at 16. Funny, though, my friends told me I never acted like a rich kid - I also worked my buns off at a job when I guess I didn't need to work. Always had a good work ethic. But boy I never had any encouragement to set a goal for myself and become somebody. Maybe because Nmom thought I might follow in her footsteps and didn't need a degree to excell in her profession.
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Hi Kelly,
Just want to simply say that I think it is wise of you to take your time and get things all lined up and not rush into anything. Your family dynamics seem very complicated and entangled. It seems like baby steps could be the way to go here at first.
It is a very sensitive time with your 17 year old daughter getting ready to go to college and I can see that your situation with Nmom is no simple thing to get out of and you need to be cautious.
My mom committed fraud against me. It seems that your mom is very controlling but hasn't stooped to that level. At least I hope not.
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No. I honestly think my mother's intentions are good.............that's why I do not understand some of the ramblings in the "evil or disease forum." She cannot understand why I would be so discontent after everything she does for me. But the basic fact is that - we are entangled - our lives have been emeshed for so many years. No adult should have to live their lives under total scrutiny. I get scrutiny from my mother and from my daughter.
Well, this whole week my mom has not been in work and because of that I think she is probably "trying." We talked a little bit about work and she said something like, "Please deliver me from all this." So I have figured out that, 1. She doesn't like the day-to-day monotony of working in our business, but 2. She does like the people in our industry to think she has it all together and that we are successful. We have not turned a profit ever since we have been in the business so to sell it at this point would not be an option - she would lose too much money.
So it is like she is stuck there........................and in her mind she doesn't want to be stuck but in her heart she does not trust me enough to let go and risk losing all the money. And the reason she does not trust me is because I have been unentangling ourselves for the past three or four years and it just doesn't feel good to her (or me because I can't just DO IT!) Every bit of unentangling is like trying to rip siamese twins apart without surgery and without anesthesia...........
Don't know if you ever saw the skit on "In Living Color," back when Jim Carrey was a bit player on the show and had not made it big yet..........he had an embilical cord attached to him and it ran across the room and up his mother's skirt............that's how I feel sometimes.
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Kelly,
I hope you can keep posting here even if your daughter decides to find the site. I don't think you've written anything that is wrong or bad even if she reads it. If she's interested in psychology you could say, "I don't have anything to hide, but I do have things that I like to keep private or therapeutic. To me, this is like journalling." Maybe she'd understand or try to.
bunny
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Bunny: Well, I will keep posting and if my daughter reads it she will just feel sorry for me or get mad at me because she doesn't understand the dynamics that I have had with my Nmom my whole life.
I am so much more easy going than my mom and like I said before, my daughter feels a bit of it when she has to stay with gparents. But she also thinks I need to get over it. She doesn't feel bad or guilty asking my parents for money and stuff. Actually, my dad is easier to ask for money. He's more easy going.............we all have him a little wrapped.
But when I ask my mom for money (even if it is expected, like tuition or other expenses that she has volunteered for) I feel so bad. It makes me sick to my stomach. I feel like such a mooch!! But sometimes I wonder why she doesn't just give it? She has it to give. She has the power to allow me to spend time with my kids. But to her the most important thing in the world is work. It always has been. Funny, I thought that was supposed to be a man thing.
Oh, why didn't I go to college and become a doctor or lawyer. If I had to do it over again................................yada yada yada.
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But when I ask my mom for money (even if it is expected, like tuition or other expenses that she has volunteered for) I feel so bad. It makes me sick to my stomach. I feel like such a mooch!! But sometimes I wonder why she doesn't just give it?
Money usually comes with strings attached. Very few parents "just give it" to adult children.
bunny
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Hi Kelly,
Money has a transformative power within relationships. Like it has a life and energy all its own. It can mean love, security, success, freedom, power or all those things. It sounds (I am trying to say this gently esp. since you are sincerely trying to figure this out) as though you have been groomed to be an "economic outpatient". Financial independence will put you in the drivers seat of your own destiny.
For self awareness you might want to research stuff like affluenza and psychology of money type websites and books. Try "The Millionaire Next Door" for inspiration on getting a handle on your own assets. This is the author who coined the "economic outpatient" term for second-generation wealthy.
You are in a very common situation. One generation worked hard to "make it" and the second generation is used to having the benefits of parents who "made it". It's a very different viewpoint. I'm surrounded by people who are controlled by their parents' wealth. They would be happier if they felt they could stand on their own two feet. Honest. But they feel they have to (their feelings or their parents' feelings, pick one) uphold the standard their parents have achieved over the years. So the pressure is on to be an "overnight success".
If you choose therapy as an option, try to find someone familiar with money matters through generations. It may help to get a handle on how you feel about money, where it comes from, etc. in order to really get a grip on what you want to achieve and why these feelings are pressing so ####### you right now. Hope this helps, Kelli.
Good luck, Seeker
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Hello again
:oops:
My post was censored (huh?) in the last sentence because I mentioned "feelings pressing" and then "hard" and then "on"... :shock: LOL well, I hope you all knew what I really meant to say!! :oops:
Seeker
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I believe you Seeker. :) You seem like an upstanding decent person to me.
But they feel they have to (their feelings or their parents' feelings, pick one) uphold the standard their parents have achieved over the years. So the pressure is on to be an "overnight success".
This is so true. I "failed" my parents by not having their values about money and its importance to them.
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Hello all! You are right. I have set myself to have a nice house, drive nice cars, etc. But I'm strapped all the time. Then my mom says things like my brother and I are living too high on the hog, and I said to her, "Where do you think we got our expensive taste?" Sometimes I think that living in a trailer would be ok if I could just be happy. Yes, the money thing is hard. Mom made hers in a MLM type business - ground floor - right place, right time. It's too late for me to go back to college and get a degree in law or something like that. So I just feel tied to my mom and it depresses me. Since I have been posting on this board I think I am worse than when I started. I am crying all the time. I wrote my mom and email yesterday and told her that I dreaded going into work and that I am just sick and want to get another job.
You are right all! I need to stop worrying about the money and just move on.
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Kelly,
Are you still seeing a therapist? I think it would really help to get some professional support right now. You are feeling a lot of pressure to quickly "do something" about the problem. And this problem is kind of more complex than that.
Many jobs are stressful and have N bosses (I have one). It is not a magical solution to the problem. The problem is having appropriate boundaries, financial and otherwise, with your mother.
It's okay to feel upset and worse now, that is how we feel when we start facing our problems and get out of denial. Please consider calling your therapist if you still have one.
{{{ Kelly}}}
bunny
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Hey Bunny: Thanks for the hugs again - and who is going to pay the $100 an hour to talk to a therapist? See? I cannot win for losing!!!! When my mom and I went to her pastor I accused of him of not giving sound advise because he wouldn't want to put her large contributions in jeopardy. Then the advise that he did give I followed but my mom did not. Then she said something like, "Well SOMEBODY has to work!"
Oh well, more tears and dread................
Kelly
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Dearest Kelly,
May I suggest the following? Make a list of the suggestions made here and possible outcomes. Make a list of what you have tried in the past, what worked and what didn't work as a result and why. And why it might be worth another try.
We are familiar with your pain and the reluctance to go through the additional pain associated with change. It's like childbirth. It's very scary, painful, and who knows what's going to happen? But it also makes life interesting too.
I hear a bit of rationalization and "yes, but"-ing in your replies. That's natural because you are confronting something that's hard. This may also be why your daughter is a bit frustrated when you voice your feelings. She may be wondering what you are going to do about what's bothering you. You see?
Unfortunately, there are no easy answers. Like Tom Hanks says in "A League of Their Own": "It's the hard that makes it great. Otherwise everyone would be doing it" He was talking about baseball, but it can apply to anything worth doing for your own growth and greatness.
If you are willing to keep plugging away, we're willing to keep encouraging you. Hugs, Seeker
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Seeker: Another thing Tom Hanks said in that movie was, "Are you crying? There's no crying in baseball!" Love that movie. But is there crying in a adult child of a N's life? Well, I would say there is because I have been crying a lot lately. And you are right, I am the queen of "Yes, buts......" learned that one from Nmom. No one can have a right answer without an alternative or a reason why it won't work.....................that is the invalidation I have felt all my life and I am truly sorry for "yes, butting" you!
I wrote my husband this morning (an email at work) and told him I am sorry for being on edge lately.............he is supportive of me but probably doesn't realize that I need him to step up right about now and take some of the pressure off of me. Cleaning up dog poop or unloading the dishwasher would really help me right now.
Well, I will think about REALLY breaking the cycle of abuse with a plan. Need to know that there is a light at the end of the tunnel, even if it means my standard of living has to go down.
Thanks for calling me on the excuses.............................they are just that - excuses. I am terrified of what it will look like but I guess I am willing to make some steps forward to have my soul back..............
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Hi Kelly, I sent you a private message. Hope you are okay.
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Hi Kelly, lottery ticket symbolism guest here. A post of yours from an older page:
Well, this whole week my mom has not been in work and because of that I think she is probably "trying."
But you won’t know for sure what it was about unless you ask her, directly: “Just curious, why didn’t you come into work that week?” and find out her answer. If you don’t ask people, you don’t know. And if you don’t tell people, they don’t know! I have to keep telling myself this, people aren’t telepathic. I have to tell them what I want, or they don’t know.
We talked a little bit about work and she said something like, "Please deliver me from all this."
Maybe she meant it? For real?
So I have figured out that, 1. She doesn't like the day-to-day monotony of working in our business, but 2. She does like the people in our industry to think she has it all together and that we are successful.
Has she actually said these things? Seriously.
Why do I ask you to question your interpretations here? Because:
We have not turned a profit ever since we have been in the business so to sell it at this point would not be an option - she would lose too much money.
Yikes! If you are paying yourselves good salaries and not making a profit - I hope she’s got a lot of money stored away in case it does fold. I hope she can continue paying the school/college fees that your children are used to. I’m now worried that the business is a ‘house of cards’ ready to crash. Would that be a problem?
What would you feel if she said tomorrow: “I’ve had enough. I’ve tried to make this work and I’m tired. You can have the business or you can leave. I’m for folding it.”
And:
he is supportive of me but probably doesn't realize that I need him to step up right about now and take some of the pressure off of me. Cleaning up dog poop or unloading the dishwasher would really help me right now.
“probably doesn't realize” – not unless you tell him, straight: “I want you to do this. Do you want to do it?”
Give others some of the responsibility. You don’t have to do it all by yourself. None of it.
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Boy that was some good advise. Telling people. Asking people. I guess I am the queen of talking around what I want.
The house of cards.......that is analogy I have used many times. No, the business has been run poorly for years.....................she has put lots of money in it. But it can turn a profit if we stop acting like we've got it all together and stop living beyond our means.
No, she hasn't said that she wants people to think she's a success. Isn't that kind of a N thing? Don't Ns want everyone to think they have it all together? I can watch her in action and know what she is doing.
Oh well, all advise is good. Thanks...............and boo hoo, I didn't win the lottery the other day. I don't think I even got one number that matched!!! Does that mean I have to pay them?
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I guess I am the queen of talking around what I want.
Me too. That’s why I saw it.
But it can turn a profit if we stop acting like we've got it all together and stop living beyond our means.
Would you like to just live comfortably with it and stop striving so hard? Work at it, make a profit, feel more secure?
Or – is it Mom’s acting out of line with reality that gets to you? Do you wish she would just stop acting like she’s Ms Wonderful and be real, just a regular human? (Me again too.) Then – and this is a flight of imagination okay? – you wouldn’t have to compete with her. Even if you don’t compete, hey, if things were just a little more real and down-to-earth, you wouldn’t have to be Superwoman, for your husband, your children….etc.
Don't Ns want everyone to think they have it all together? I can watch her in action and know what she is doing.
Yes they do, to cover deep shame and feelings of inferiority. They have to keep proving that their existence is okay. This isn’t necessarily conscious. Which makes them seem insufferably vain, arrogant, unfeeling and so on. Yes you can see what she’s doing, but why is she? Is it making her a happier person? Maybe you could ask why she does it, as in ‘no, really mom, why do you do it when you don’t have to?’ She may not realise that she doesn’t have to! It’s possible.
Keep those lottery tickets, frame them!
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I DID say something to her about being "real." She said she had no intimate relationships and I told her that that is because she is not "real." No one know the "real" mom. Well, she immediately said that people do not need to know things that don't concern them. Meaning, that if people really knew her, they wouldn't like her so she just acts like this wonderful woman who has it all together. And again, from all outward appearances she does. Nice home. Nice cars. "Successful" business. Great family - oh, not great family. "We" are real. "We" don't have to live with appearances (well, maybe the nice house and cars.........but we are not hung up on regularly attending church just because that's what we do...) That's where it all falls apart for her. My brother and I were complete rebels, drugs, alcohol................my dad speaks before he thinks. It kind of blows her whole persona.........that's why she makes herself "somebody" outside of our town. She does the national board and committee thing. She travelled a lot in her former job.
She thinks I compete with her. Does it sound like I compete with her? I think I try to knock her down a notch. Is that competing? Or is it because I don't want to strive to live up to her impossible expectations? Is that competition? Or is it rebelliousness? Or is it survival?
Gonna keep buying those tickets. $2 a week for the rest of my life. I guess I'll call it investing in the hopes of moving on................and I'll always keep my eyes open for another opportunity. There has to be something out there that will make me feel good about myself.
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Hi Kelly,
Lots of stuff to sort through and think about hunh? Life's pretty complicated, even without N's. :wink:
But hey, this really really hit me, and I needed to respond:
There has to be something out there that will make me feel good about myself.
No. There isn't. There's nothing out there that will make you feel good about yourself. There's no magic person, no magic pill, no instant solution. Pretty harsh thing to say, hunh? But unfortunately/fortunately, it's true. Because if we had to depend on something else to make us feel good about ourselves, our self-worth would be dependent on the outside world - which is an ever-changing chaotic place. :?
The only way you'll be able to feel good about yourself is to learn to love yourself. If you can do that, then it doesn't matter what comes in and out of your life, who comes in and out of your life. It's important to have people in our lives, don't get me wrong. But until you can be around others without needing them to hold you up, you can't really be with them. Same goes for things, like cars and houses. You have to learn to love whoever you are - without those things. :)
So it's not so much about who your mom is, it's about how you feel around her and what you can do to control your life in such a way that she doesn't take too much from you (if that's what she's doing). You'll never change her - understand her...maybe. :wink: The only way your life is going to be more fulfilling is to fill up your insides and stop looking for cures in the outside world. It's up to you to steer your life in a direction that brings you happiness. :)
{EDIT: I should qualify this by saying that there are tons of things out in the world that can make us happy or feel good, but we have to know ourselves on some level in order to know what those things are. The Acting Out thread has been touching quite a bit on this topic, I think.}
Hugs (((Kelly)))
Wildflower
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What I mean about some "thing" out there, I mean a job where I feel fulfilled. When you live in your parents' shadow it is hard to feel good about your accomplishments. When I was younger I worked at a place where I felt good about how good I was at the job. I had been there a long time and knew I was one of the best. At this job I am vetoed at every turn by you know who!
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Hi Kelly, before anything else, can I say: I think you’re brave, I think you’re real and human. And you’ve proved you can be a success and that you can survive, that’s done. Talking like you have done, reading our replies, isn’t necessarily easy. The more odd, strange ideas about yourself (and your mother) that you can consider, the better. How about this one:
Your mother is quite happy being who she is. Do you want to make her unhappy by causing her to change? She likes her life. She enjoys the limelight. She needs it. Without it she’ll be unhappy and lonely. Do you want to see that happen?
What is the problem? Where is the problem?
When you live in your parents' shadow it is hard to feel good about your accomplishments.
That’s true. We can live in our parents’ shadows both physically (at work) and in our heads - trying to be better than them, different to them, trying to prove something in relation to them.
In relation to them. Once we can stop doing anything in relation to our parents, we’ve cracked it. I haven’t yet. But I’m learning. Your mother is not your problem. It’s your concept of your mother, your ideas about her, that need to change? You’re not wrong – you’re just not concentrating on yourself. Your mother’s life has nothing to do with you. Even paying the education fees: get her to pay them direct through the banking system, or to the child, cut yourself out of the loop. It wouldn’t mean you aren’t grateful etc, it simply indicates that she is doing it because she wants to – and that her generosity doesn’t depend on your being grateful. Once you stop feeling controlled by her (and it’s up to you to do that, to change your thoughts and feelings, it’s not up to her to change) – life will so much simpler, calmer, clearer.
I had been there a long time and knew I was one of the best.
You’ve proved yourself to yourself. You did it, you succeeded. Do you need your mother to recognise it too? It would be nice, but it might not happen and it’s not worth fighting for.
Also, nobody is going to come along and say: “you’re right Kelly, your mother is wrong and we’re going to do it your way instead of hers”. It’s not going to happen. What if it did? Your mother might be shattered. Her confidence – the little she really has – would be gone. Do you see how pathetic she is?
At this job I am vetoed at every turn by you know who!
It feels like a struggle of some sort. Maybe your struggle for love and recognition from her, but maybe she sees it as a fight for heading the business. I get the impression that you’re more adult than she is, more mature, more self-aware. So you have to take responsibility for your own happiness, your sense of worth. You don’t want the prize for most embittered employee? That’s where it could end, if you don’t let it go. And letting it go is in your head – it’s not solved by moving job alone.
I don’t know you Kelly, I’ve read your posts that’s all. What I’ve written may not apply, it may be wrong. A lot of it applies to me in the past. Yes this is a disclaimer! Hope some of it helps you to think about things differently. Cheers, lottery symbolism guest
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Well the advise is wonderful. I guess the hang ups I have are in my head. I am my own worst enemy. I did have the school send the tuition bill directly to my mom so I didn't have to ask for it, but she did call me the minute she got it to tell me she got it (still needs me in the loop, I guess, wants me to feel what she is doing for me....)
We have had some pretty deep emails where she accused me of wanting her dead, and I told her I didn't want her dead I just wanted her to stop being so negative and that I would be happy to leave the business if that's what she wanted. Well, she's backed off a bit and went to some employees and apologized for the negativity. I am on my way - thanks to all of you for the moral support!
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Well the advise is wonderful. I guess the hang ups I have are in my head. I am my own worst enemy. I did have the school send the tuition bill directly to my mom so I didn't have to ask for it, but she did call me the minute she got it to tell me she got it (still needs me in the loop, I guess, wants me to feel what she is doing for me....)
We have had some pretty deep emails where she accused me of wanting her dead, and I told her I didn't want her dead I just wanted her to stop being so negative and that I would be happy to leave the business if that's what she wanted. Well, she's backed off a bit and went to some employees and apologized for the negativity. I am on my way - thanks to all of you for the moral support!
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(((Kelly))) hugs!
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So guess what? All of these posts on this forum has brought my emotions to the surface and I emailed my mom and told her I was bursting into tears and depressed. We corresponded back and forth (can't talk - it gets too ugly - email seems to be a diffused way to communicate) and something I said got through to her at least temporarily. She came into work and was upbeat and was saying nice things to the employees and was "counselling" me to work on my self esteem and giving me words of encouragement. It seems weird and I am not sure if I should trust her enough to let my guard down. Then I told her that I needed to know her intentions for me for the future. I need to know if she is going to help with college, etc. Because I realized that by her not telling me what her intentions are, I imagine that she is pulling my string, etc. I felt like that was part of the control thing. And honestly, if she told me she wouldn't help me at all, it would be easier than wondering if and when she would help get my kids through school. So she agreed to sit down and talk. So I have made some headway. Then she started giving me advise and I wanted to email back and tell her to butt out but I just let it go. If she continues to push, I'll thank her graciously but tell her that I need to figure ME out without her advise. I think it is getting better but time will tell since it has only been good for a couple days. And I know you all will tell me to beware.
Kell
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Kelly,
This is my opinion, so I'm qualifying what I'm going to say right off the bat. You will never be an adult with this money arrangement with your mom. Adults don't get money from their parents, they find a way to work it out on their own. I'm not trying to be mean. I just think it's something you need to hear although I know you are processing a lot right now.
Hang in there. I hope you can muster up the fortitude to one day do without the "golden handcuffs" as someone so succintly put it. It's keeping you stuck in a place you don't seem to want to be.
MM
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Kelly,
Your mother can't help you. This is about your life. She's already living her life however she wants. You are at the wheel of your own life. What she says is just more dust in the wind. Does this job have health insurance that covers therapy?
bunny
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Kelly, I agree with the other posters here. You need to get away from your mother's money and get out on your own. You and your husband need to stand on your own 4 feet. Don't expect help from her or anyone else for your kids for college or whatever, that is not what grown-ups who want to have self-respect and control of their own life do. Live within your means and stop looking to other to help out. This is what I have done my entire life and I have never been sorry for it. I have been able to tell the N's in my life to get the hell out. I owe nothing to any of them, though they owe plenty to me in many ways.
Working hard and doing it yourself makes you strong and your children will look up to you for it. In fact, there is nothing wrong with your children getting their own grants and loans for college to fill in wherever the gaps are. It will make them take their education more seriously if they are going to have to pay for some of it.
Lizbeth
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Kell, glad you keep posting, talking and thinking.
I am not sure if I should trust her enough to let my guard down.
Trust yourself, your feelings and thoughts. Do you trust yourself enough (not trust her, trust you) to let your guard down? Can you defend yourself against whatever it is that might happen? (What is the worst that could happen?)
If you let your guard down, you might find she doesn’t ‘relate’ at all. That can be pretty tough. To try and let your guard down on purpose, to try and connect – and then find that the other person can’t understand, is unable to understand you. That can be quite revealing and therefore upsetting. If it happens and you can manage to deal with it, it’s a big positive step. Only you know how much hurt you can cope with. You don’t want to drive yourself nuts!
If you did let your guard down, become emotional, cry - she might be confused and frightened and try to get you to stop – to stop her being frightened. Or she might be cold and distant. Note: both of these reactions have nothing to do with you. It’s all about her and her world.
People can only control us if we let them. We think “you’re controlling me” instead of thinking about what we want, saying it and asserting our needs. In business terms, we want to negotiate a solution which benefits both parties and if we can’t, if the price is too high or the client demands too much, we have to walk away. No point fighting about it.
So she agreed to sit down and talk.
Can you envisage a meeting with her, like a real adult business meeting? Where you have an agenda and you stick to the points you want to resolve (like having a mantra: this is my objective and I’ll keep repeating it until we resolve it).
Then she started giving me advise and I wanted to email back and tell her to butt out but I just let it go. If she continues to push, I'll thank her graciously but tell her that I need to figure ME out without her advise.
‘Letting it go’ is being mature, not reacting straight away, giving yourself time to think. Letting it go is very difficult to do. It is not weakness: it’s strength.
If someone says to you, angrily, “I don’t need your advise!” how do you feel? Rejected and angry yourself? If someone, anyone, offers advise you don’t have to reject it by telling them you don’t want it.
You can say: “thanks for the advise. I’ll consider it.” Then you have control, you decide what you want to think and what’s more, the person giving the advise knows you are in control. You take responsibility and control for yourself. After all, it is your issue, nobody else’s. You own it, no-one can take it away from you. There is strength in that control of self.
Hope this helps, usual disclaimer from me Lottery Guest - and what about bunny’s question? Could you get therapy on insurance? If so, would you feel okay about doing that? Or is therapy for wimps?! (joke) :)
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Hey everyone, Again, I appreciate all the input. And I like the analogy of "golden handcuffs..." That is what it feels like. But you know, if she wants to pay for my children's college, then let her. I cannot afford it. But I would rather have her make the arrangements with my kids then through me. She keeps me in the loop probably because I am the mom but I really think it is to keep her hooks in me. I know she helps my nephew with his college but she communicates with HIM and not my brother.
And I am trying to break away. I really am. I hope you all know that this is a process - not a hatchet. I have done the hatchet thing to her before like setting boundaries - BAMMM! It totally freaked her out because I just let her have it (that thread about acting out? Me, totally!!)
I am still looking for jobs. I am a little scared as I have said before. The entanglements with my mom have been in place since I was in my late 20s. I really want to be free from the financial things but I really cannot afford some of these things and she can. So what? Do you think I should just refuse her help and hurt my children in the process? I know, I know, you all think I should just break away...................and I am. Slowly and methodically. But I just can't NOT take that money for college if she is willing to give it (and like I said before, she hasn't really said she is going to, she has just eluded to it!!!)
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Actually, Kelly, I'm not sure you should get a different job. You may end up with a boss similar to your mother (even if it's a man).
Here's my feedback in a nutshell:
(1) Keep taking financial aid from her. Pay the emotional price with gratitude rather than resentment. Don't mix this up with your job. They are two different things.
(2) At work, figure out how to deal with a narcissistic boss. This isn't about your mother, it's about a narcissistic boss. N bosses are everywhere and you'll have to deal with them sooner or later.
(3) Don't discuss your emotional problems with your mother. I wouldn't discuss my emotional problems with my boss or mother who caused them. That is futile, feeds the problem, and makes it worse.
(3) Get into therapy even if your mother pays for it.
bunny
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If everything she gives comes along with strings, her giving your children money for college will not be what is good for them in the long run. She will feel like she has a right to run their lives, even if she can't run yours any longer. When someone wants to control you they dangle the carrot like your mother is doing. Call her bluff. Let your kids figure out what to do about getting money for college. My husband put himself through with no help from anyone, it can be done and we don't have to put up with cr&p from anyone.
All you are doing is allowing her to pass her legacy of control down to another generation and that is not fair to your children at all.
Lizbeth
Hey everyone, Again, I appreciate all the input. And I like the analogy of "golden handcuffs..." That is what it feels like. But you know, if she wants to pay for my children's college, then let her. I cannot afford it. But I would rather have her make the arrangements with my kids then through me. She keeps me in the loop probably because I am the mom but I really think it is to keep her hooks in me. I know she helps my nephew with his college but she communicates with HIM and not my brother.
And I am trying to break away. I really am. I hope you all know that this is a process - not a hatchet. I have done the hatchet thing to her before like setting boundaries - BAMMM! It totally freaked her out because I just let her have it (that thread about acting out? Me, totally!!)
I am still looking for jobs. I am a little scared as I have said before. The entanglements with my mom have been in place since I was in my late 20s. I really want to be free from the financial things but I really cannot afford some of these things and she can. So what? Do you think I should just refuse her help and hurt my children in the process? I know, I know, you all think I should just break away...................and I am. Slowly and methodically. But I just can't NOT take that money for college if she is willing to give it (and like I said before, she hasn't really said she is going to, she has just eluded to it!!!)
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Lizbeth,
I was thinking this same thing.
This sort of thing leaves one in a fetal position so to speak. It's our job as parents to prepare our kids for the world and the world is a hard place sometimes. I think it would be more of a kindness to use the "hatchet" and cut the strings. It certainly would be a better role model than passively accepting money because Mom wants to give it. I don't see any value in that type of dependent thinking. They would actually develop more character and their education would mean more to them.
MM
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Yes, this is very true, thank you for saying it so well.
Lizbeth
Lizbeth,
I was thinking this same thing.
This sort of thing leaves one in a fetal position so to speak. It's our job as parents to prepare our kids for the world and the world is a hard place sometimes. I think it would be more of a kindness to use the "hatchet" and cut the strings. It certainly would be a better role model than passively accepting money because Mom wants to give it. I don't see any value in that type of dependent thinking. They would actually develop more character and their education would mean more to them.
MM
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http://www.psychohistory.com/htm/money.html
This is from the web site Bunny mentioned on another thread but it's very interesting reading for this thread.
Dee
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Ok, here's a stretch - after reading that link about the "poison" of money, I have been looking into a buying a mobile home. When I was very young (early 20s) I took home less than $1000 per month. My husband probably made the same. We lived in a cute little bungalow and we making it. Then my mom decided to help us go to college and the rest is history. The more money she gave us the more guilty I felt and the more emeshed we became. My husband became a huge slacker, he acted like a frat boy while my mom paid our way to an expensive college. The minute we graduated he left me for another woman only to have my mom convince him of his mental instability and got him into inpatient counseling......so there is something to be said about "needing" financial help from parents. And the fact that my mom holds it so tightly and when we need help, we have to ask. She never "blesses." So all that to say that everything I have read and heard from all of you just underlines the fact that the more she gives, the more guilt I feel and the more obligation I owe her. I'll never grow up without taking a huge step back and reevaluating her place in my life.................................oohhh the quote "the money is the root of all evil........" really applies here doesn't it? And to think that I am willing to sell my soul for a few material things.
kell
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Yep, Kelly, sounds like you're kind of getting it there. You are selling your soul (and your children's souls as well) for material possessions. How many rich people are happy anyway? The only happy people I know are those who have made their own lives what they want them to be. If money comes from their hard work, that's great, but it's not the money that makes them happy.
The question is now, what are you willing to do about all of this? I know it's not easy, nothing worthwhile ever is. I feel for you, believe me. I have been tired and exhausted but I can truly say I have never regretted working hard and being a good example to my kids (even if they don't always follow that example). Now at 51 I am starting to enjoy the fruits of my labors and know what I have is mine, I don't have to look to someone else for my financial security or wait for someone to die. That money is never ours to begin with. An N parent can give it all away and you find out about it at the reading of the will. And you still have it wrong, your mother isn't obligated to "bless" you with anything at all, you are grown ups, you decided to have a family, it is on you and your husband to make your way in life. That idea of giving without your asking smacks of your sense of entitlement. No grown person is entitled to anything they didn't earn themselves. This is why you feel guilty, you know that it is wrong to be asking because you are not a child.
Lizbeth
Ok, here's a stretch - after reading that link about the "poison" of money, I have been looking into a buying a mobile home. When I was very young (early 20s) I took home less than $1000 per month. My husband probably made the same. We lived in a cute little bungalow and we making it. Then my mom decided to help us go to college and the rest is history. The more money she gave us the more guilty I felt and the more emeshed we became. My husband became a huge slacker, he acted like a frat boy while my mom paid our way to an expensive college. The minute we graduated he left me for another woman only to have my mom convince him of his mental instability and got him into inpatient counseling......so there is something to be said about "needing" financial help from parents. And the fact that my mom holds it so tightly and when we need help, we have to ask. She never "blesses." So all that to say that everything I have read and heard from all of you just underlines the fact that the more she gives, the more guilt I feel and the more obligation I owe her. I'll never grow up without taking a huge step back and reevaluating her place in my life.................................oohhh the quote "the money is the root of all evil........" really applies here doesn't it? And to think that I am willing to sell my soul for a few material things.
kell
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Yep, Kelly, sounds like you're kind of getting it there. You are selling your soul (and your children's souls as well) for material possessions. How many rich people are happy anyway? The only happy people I know are those who have made their own lives what they want them to be. If money comes from their hard work, that's great, but it's not the money that makes them happy.
The question is now, what are you willing to do about all of this? I know it's not easy, nothing worthwhile ever is. I feel for you, believe me. I have been tired and exhausted but I can truly say I have never regretted working hard and being a good example to my kids (even if they don't always follow that example). Now at 51 I am starting to enjoy the fruits of my labors and know what I have is mine, I don't have to look to someone else for my financial security or wait for someone to die. That money is never ours to begin with. An N parent can give it all away and you find out about it at the reading of the will. And you still have it wrong, your mother isn't obligated to "bless" you with anything at all, you are grown ups, you decided to have a family, it is on you and your husband to make your way in life. That idea of giving without your asking smacks of your sense of entitlement. No grown person is entitled to anything they didn't earn themselves. This is why you feel guilty, you know that it is wrong to be asking because you are not a child.
Lizbeth
Ok, here's a stretch - after reading that link about the "poison" of money, I have been looking into a buying a mobile home. When I was very young (early 20s) I took home less than $1000 per month. My husband probably made the same. We lived in a cute little bungalow and we making it. Then my mom decided to help us go to college and the rest is history. The more money she gave us the more guilty I felt and the more emeshed we became. My husband became a huge slacker, he acted like a frat boy while my mom paid our way to an expensive college. The minute we graduated he left me for another woman only to have my mom convince him of his mental instability and got him into inpatient counseling......so there is something to be said about "needing" financial help from parents. And the fact that my mom holds it so tightly and when we need help, we have to ask. She never "blesses." So all that to say that everything I have read and heard from all of you just underlines the fact that the more she gives, the more guilt I feel and the more obligation I owe her. I'll never grow up without taking a huge step back and reevaluating her place in my life.................................oohhh the quote "the money is the root of all evil........" really applies here doesn't it? And to think that I am willing to sell my soul for a few material things.
kell
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Boy, you guys can smack me upside the head!! (I know, I know, I need it sometimes so I am NOT being defensive!!!) Wow! That smarts.
Except for Bunny. Bunny I think you have a more realistic approach. I have been a runner all my life. If something gets a little too difficult to deal with, bam, off I go. Getting a new job. Marrying a man after only knowing him six months. I am not a patient person and am known for my "knee jerk" reactions to stress, advise, conflict. I used to go to counseling and couldn't get out of the session fast enough to put into place what we had talked about. (Seems like I got that one from Nmom - she calls emergency meetings because she wants things to happen now - instead of waiting until next week.)
And the sense of "entitlement?" Imagine living in a home where you wanted for nothing. Then you grow up and have to struggle. And you know your parents have plenty of money. And your parents neglected you when you were a child and didn't give you the tools to make a plan, and work the plan. So then you wake up one morning and your life is a mess and part of the fault lies at your neglectful, prideful parents' feet. My brother said it well. He said, "After all the crap my mother put us through, she owes us!" So maybe I need to erase this sense of "entitlement." Maybe we (my brother and I) have to realize that when my mother dies, and the will is read, it might be just like Joan Crawfords. We may not get a dime. So why do we live life like we will??
So I am trying to get it through my fat head that I will be happier if I just do what I need to do. Be nice to my mother. Go to counseling (even if mother pays for it) and get on with my life!! I need to make a plan and work the plan!! Have a birthday that ends in a 5 next week. Maybe that can kind of be a milestone - a half way mark (if I make it to 90, and I should since my gram is 89 and going strong and her mom made it to her 90s...............)
Thanks for your input, and thanks, Bunny for your gentleness! Kell
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And the sense of "entitlement?" Imagine living in a home where you wanted for nothing. Then you grow up and have to struggle. And you know your parents have plenty of money.
Unfortunately your parents put their children into an impossible bind of dependency and helplessness. But they still don't owe you anything. Once we reach adulthood, no one owes each other anything but respect. That's it. You don't owe them, they don't owe you. This is unfair but kind of how it works.
Your recognition of the 'entitlement' is very very excellent. I hope you'll get into therapy and get into that more deeply. It could be very interesting. Obviously your mother feels super-entitled so you didn't get this idea out of nowhere. But you might want to work on it as it doesn't help us in life.
Good work, Kell.
bunny
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Kelly,
I had a sense of entitlement too. It got me into a lot of trouble. And I didn't grow up in a family with a lot of money. But like you, I felt that I had been denied the love, support and direction and attention I needed. Maybe that's because I am one of 8 kids. Maybe my Mom didn't have it to give (she still doesn't btw). I felt I had been screwed and essentially I was.
But once you become an adult it is up to you to make things right. You now have the control if you want it. Even though I can see that maybe you think some of us are being harsh, I sometimes think the "cruel to be kind" notion is better heeded. Sometimes you have to move off the dime.
But you have to "get it" first. Maybe some of it is starting to sink in.
In any case dear Kelly, good luck to you. Most of us here have had a long road of it, so it will take time. Just remember that every day you make little decisions that get you closer to being an adult will be giant steps forward.
Your fellow adult in the making.
MM
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Sorry, Kelly, that I'm not as gentle and as diplomatic as Bunny, everone has their own style. But what I say is said with kindness and a sincere effort to help. You are becoming quite insightful and I commend your ability to read even the difficult messages and not become offended. I do understand why you feel the way you do. None of us here at it easy as children, so we do know why you are the way you are. But once you know, then you have to do something about it. And it seems like you are willing to do so. Many will just turn away and keep on the same path, then reach the ends of their lives and still be miserable because they did not use the gift of SELF AWARENESS that they obtained through whatever means (a board like this, therapy, books, whatever) the way it should be used---to change your life to be what you want it to be.
Believe me. life goes too fast, it is over too quickly to keep dragging ones feet. Blaming your parents is OK as long as it doesn't do what it did to my ex-husband, give him an excuse to keep on behaving like a child instead of the grown up he could have been.
Lizbeth
Boy, you guys can smack me upside the head!! (I know, I know, I need it sometimes so I am NOT being defensive!!!) Wow! That smarts.
Except for Bunny. Bunny I think you have a more realistic approach. I have been a runner all my life. If something gets a little too difficult to deal with, bam, off I go. Getting a new job. Marrying a man after only knowing him six months. I am not a patient person and am known for my "knee jerk" reactions to stress, advise, conflict. I used to go to counseling and couldn't get out of the session fast enough to put into place what we had talked about. (Seems like I got that one from Nmom - she calls emergency meetings because she wants things to happen now - instead of waiting until next week.)
And the sense of "entitlement?" Imagine living in a home where you wanted for nothing. Then you grow up and have to struggle. And you know your parents have plenty of money. And your parents neglected you when you were a child and didn't give you the tools to make a plan, and work the plan. So then you wake up one morning and your life is a mess and part of the fault lies at your neglectful, prideful parents' feet. My brother said it well. He said, "After all the crap my mother put us through, she owes us!" So maybe I need to erase this sense of "entitlement." Maybe we (my brother and I) have to realize that when my mother dies, and the will is read, it might be just like Joan Crawfords. We may not get a dime. So why do we live life like we will??
So I am trying to get it through my fat head that I will be happier if I just do what I need to do. Be nice to my mother. Go to counseling (even if mother pays for it) and get on with my life!! I need to make a plan and work the plan!! Have a birthday that ends in a 5 next week. Maybe that can kind of be a milestone - a half way mark (if I make it to 90, and I should since my gram is 89 and going strong and her mom made it to her 90s...............)
Thanks for your input, and thanks, Bunny for your gentleness! Kell
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Lizbeth. I hear you, too. All the advise from MM and Lizbeth and Bunny and Ellie and Portia, etc. etc. goes into the pot to analyze and examine. But I believe it was Bunny who said, stay where I am and learn to draw boundaries. Probably a better idea than to run to a lower paying job and not have the flexibility, just to prove a point. The point is, to treat my mother at work as I would treat any employer (even though we are partners and she is not technically my employer - she just has more money invested because of bad business decisions that she made (with my help sometimes :wink: .) I also need to learn (through therapy) how to act and not react when she clearly pushes my buttons. And I also have to lay some cards out on the table and push her to commit to whatever it is that we decide upon - in all areas. Boundaries. Communication. And yes, money for children's college. If she tells me she will give each kid $1000 or $10,000 or whatever, at least I'll know what I (and my children) need to come up with to pay for college. It's not that I want her to pay for the whole thing, I just don't want to assume anything!!
My ninth grade teacher wrote ASSUME on the board and circled ASS and then U and then ME. He said whenever you assume you make an ass out of you and me! I'll never forget that way back in 1975.............at that time I considered ASS a cuss word so it shocked me a bit. (Remember I was raised with a "we don't drink, we don't smoke and we don't CUSS" mentality.....................?)
So all I want to know are her intentions. I'm going to tell her that. I am going to tell her that I don't expect a thing from her - nothing. I'm not going to beg or ASSUME!! But I would like to know if she has plans so I can make additional plans..........is that so bad?
I mean, a part of me wants to take a job in another city - get transferred with my husband. It would be good for me. But. Would it be good for my children? My oldest is a senior. If I moved she'd move in with, (guess who?) my mom! The next is in 8th grade and loves her friends, cheerleading etc. The third is special needs and is a very good situation in her school. So to leave now is not a good idea. When they are grown in 10 years? Maybe. But hopefully by then my mom and I will be ok. Although I am not holding my breath because I think she might be getting Alzheimer's and that will make it worse, I'm afraid.
Ramble ramble ramble..Kell
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So all I want to know are her intentions. I'm going to tell her that. I am going to tell her that I don't expect a thing from her - nothing. I'm not going to beg or ASSUME!! But I would like to know if she has plans so I can make additional plans..........is that so bad?
It isn't bad (wrong) but I wouldn't recommend it. Here's why:
(1) She may not have any idea what her intentions are. And she may not like the question, feel attacked, get defensive/angry, and lose it.
(2) Her intentions probably change on an hourly basis.
(3) Adults can't make reasonable decisions based on someone else's intentions. Especially an N who has early-stage Alzheimers. Her intentions are irrelevant in this situation.
keep up the good work,
bunny
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bunny, was going to add my own reply, but yours was so good, I'm just going to say Ditto. I agree completely with you. You cannot make your plans based on the intentions of another person, that part I agree with 1,000%.
Lizbeth
So all I want to know are her intentions. I'm going to tell her that. I am going to tell her that I don't expect a thing from her - nothing. I'm not going to beg or ASSUME!! But I would like to know if she has plans so I can make additional plans..........is that so bad?
It isn't bad (wrong) but I wouldn't recommend it. Here's why:
(1) She may not have any idea what her intentions are. And she may not like the question, feel attacked, get defensive/angry, and lose it.
(2) Her intentions probably change on an hourly basis.
(3) Adults can't make reasonable decisions based on someone else's intentions. Especially an N who has early-stage Alzheimers. Her intentions are irrelevant in this situation.
keep up the good work,
bunny
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OK, you are right there. We did a job performance evaluation with one of our key employees and she reminded my mom that if she could save us some money in one area, we would add that much back into her salary. Well, of course my mom didn't recall saying that so I told the gal that next time she should get it in writing because my mom tends to "forget" what she said. So I guess I could have my mom sign something - and that would go over like a ton of bricks. You are right there, too, she will probably feel put on the spot, etc.
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(((Kelly)))
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Kelly,
You are certainly getting a lot of feedback from this board and I think it's because you have been so interactive. And I must say you have been pretty good about not taking stuff too personally as well. That helps a lot.
I just wanted to recommend a book to you that was helpful to me. I actually got it recommended to me by Dr. Grossman. It's called "The Narcissistic Family". It's authored by Donald and Stephanie Pressman. It's kind of expensive (maybe $36.00 or so). Maybe because it's written for therapists.
The reason I thought of this for you is that I was wondering what role your Dad has/had in any of this. Of course I don't know if he's still living and would only care for comment if you wished it.
The book is excellent though.
MM
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Speaking of voicelessness - my dad is screaming to be heard all the time and is shut down time and again by my mom.
It started innocently enough. Dad was in the service and was stationed near where my mom grew up. He retired over 30 years ago and hasn't had to work since my mom's business was exploding simultaneously to his retirement. She has been a controlling workaholic and she basically won't let him speak. I allow him to unload on me.........he's always frustrated about the way my mom is always working, or volunteering or traveling or trying to "save" people..............mom won't even let him buy a new car.........he has to drive his until the wheels drop off of it. He gets retirement from the military and could easily afford a payment on a new car, but mom won't let him. He feels for me but won't go against my mom's wishes. The only thing he fights for my brother and I on is my mom's house that she grew up in. It's in the mountains and quite nice and everyone in the entire family wants it - my dad wants my brother and I to get it. The family thinks she might give it to her siblings...........I think my dad will pass before my mom. I keep begging her to retire and spend what time he has left with him.....but her window of opportunity to travel and have a good time with him has past. He has diabetes and heart problems and can barely walk. Meanwhile she won't slow down. You might have heard earlier in this thread that she used spending time with my dad as a lie to go get a facelift and in effect forced herself to semi-retire, unless she be found out as a liar.
When I was a kid my dad was a strict disciplinarian. Very military like...but not evil. I always feared my mom and her disapproval more than I did his belt and spankings. When I was a young teenager he used to take me out to dinner every night when my mom was gone for her job. He was always good for a $20 bill, a new car and dinner.
Feel sorry for him. He was emasculated many years ago. He is expected to keep the house clean but can barely walk. He spends a lot of time frequenting restaurants where they treat him like a king (I'll bet he tips REALLY well........) He watches sports almost 24/7. He has no say in any financial things. They pretty much run in different orbits. About the only thing they do together on a regular basis is go to church.
And yes, I don't take this stuff personally. I want and need all the input I can get and I figure this is free where a stuff-shirt counselor will charge lots of money. Gonna buy that book.................I need to know all I can about N. Want to call into Dr. Laura's show and see how she reacts to me. I'm sure based on most of her call ins that she will think I'm a whiner and blast me----unless I can convince her that mom is indeed Narcisistic...........
Kelly
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I allow him to unload on me.........he's always frustrated about the way my mom is always working, or volunteering or traveling or trying to "save" people..............
Boundary problem. He should not be lamenting about his wife/marriage to you. You aren't the appropriate person to hear it. It seems there are very weak boundaries in this family.
When I was a kid my dad was a strict disciplinarian. Very military like...but not evil. I always feared my mom and her disapproval more than I did his belt and spankings. When I was a young teenager he used to take me out to dinner every night when my mom was gone for her job. He was always good for a $20 bill, a new car and dinner.
Your father seems to veer between being harshly punitive and paying for love. He seems to have problems and I'm sorry.
I want and need all the input I can get and I figure this is free where a stuff-shirt counselor will charge lots of money.
This board isn't going to give you what a therapist can. It's only a bunch of opinions. It seems you want everything for free but therapy cannot be free. When you're getting something for free, you get what you pay for. Maybe someday you will be so desperate that you will actually make the investment in yourself.
Want to call into Dr. Laura's show and see how she reacts to me. I'm sure based on most of her call ins that she will think I'm a whiner and blast me----unless I can convince her that mom is indeed Narcisistic...........
You think you'll convince Dr. Laura that your mother should give you money and free things? I'm afraid you will be blasted. And anyway Dr. Laura can't help you. That's another free service that isn't going to cut it.
I know this is very hard. I think the idea of seeing a therapist is so painful that you will do anything to avoid it. That is the very reason you probably need to see one.
bunny
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Ok, Bunny, you are supposed to be the nice one! :D
Don't have a problem with my dad. It's weird. He was very punitive in my early years but he doesn't bother me. We get along just fine.
And the boundary issue. A very big one!! A VERY BIG ONE!! It has really been (and is) a problem over the years.
And do I not want to see a therapist? No, I DO want to see a therapist. I have already spent hours on a couch and have become aware of the dynamics for probably over ten years. It wasn't until recently (the last five or so) that I have realized that it isn't necessarily poor Kelly, she needs fixing. It is Patient X - Nmom - who is and was the problem. She fed the whole dysfunctional family thing for so many years. And to this day she really doesn't have a clue (I don't think) that she's the one with the problem. And as long as she is who she is, she will never admit to being the one with the problem.
We have this one aunt who absolutely can't stand my Nmom, and of course we all think SHE has the problem because she can't stand to be in the same room with mom. So she rather theatrically stands up and storms out. Then we all go, "Look at her, what's HER problem?" Well it seems she's the only one yelling "The emperor has no clothes!"
Oh, and the free advise and Dr. Laura thing. Since you don't know me you probably haven't caught on yet that I am a bit sarcastic - no A LOT sarcastic. And do you think I would call into Dr. Laura and ask her to endorse me taking lots of money from my mother? She would blast me. No I would ask her about her knowledge of narcissism and how a 45 year old woman should go about setting boundaries - especially if we work together. And I'll bet Dr. Laura would say don't work together. And when my Nmom and I went to counseling about three years ago the counselor told me to not work with my mom and that is when I went to the other job temporarily.
So no, all is not what it seems. Forgive me for being a bit negative and sarcastic.
Kell
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Kell,
I think your former therapist made a big mistake in advising you not to work for your mother. Any Tom, Dick or Harry can tell you not to work for your mother. Who'd pay for that advice? Your former therapist sounds a bit lame to me.
Your mother is an extremely impaired, dysfunctional person but she is not the problem. The problem is how you relate to her. A good therapist would work with you on that. And the therapist would have to understand that you are not interested in working on it until you've expressed a lot of anger at the situation you've gotten into. It may be a year or more of anger before anything else happened. A good therapist would be patient and not start making decisions for you.
You're right, I didn't catch on to the sarcasm about Dr Laura. I'm a bit dense sometimes.
bunny
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Well, I posted a reply and Poooffff! First time that happened to me.
I have been to a couple of therapists. Actually, like four. The first gal introduced me to the concept of codependency. My husband and I had some major problems so that took precedence over any personal stuff. The we went to another guy for marriage counseling. As long as we continued counseling, the marriage was ok. The minute we discontinued it things got bad again. Finally he stopped going, I went and decided on divorce.
Then my mom and I went to a guy that we both know. She stopped that because she didn't want him to know our personal stuff. So we went to the other guy. I think my mom went with me for moral support. She didn't think she needed any counseling - only poor, misguided and screwed up Kelly. I think it was a quick fix - more like a band-aid than real therapy. Based on the few sessions he concluded that I didn't like my mom much and would probably be happier not working with her day in and day out. Why do you think that is so bad, Bunny?
Is there some reason you feel I should stay other than good pay and flexibility? The way I react to her is a big issue. I am so hypersensitive to anything she says, I don't think she feels real safe around me - I let her have it at the drop of a hat. But that was after years and years of stuffing my anger. It is almost like I cannot NOT blow up when I'm around her. She really drives me crazy. And so many people have said to me that she will never change..........that is the part that scares me. That we will live the next twenty years in "walking on eggshells" mode. How can she want that? Why does she want me to stay so bad when she doesn't trust me? And I don't trust her. It's like I am holding my breath when I am around her waiting for some little thing to throw me over the deep end.
I would think she would be happy for me to be gone. But her real feeling is that she doesn't want all the responsibility for the business. She's nearly 70 and wants me to take it over (yes, that's what she says....) We originally bought the business as a source of income for my husband and I..but then she took over. So now why does it scare her that I might leave. Is it that she will lose control over me. Or the fear of the unknown? Or does she really realize that she doesn't have a clue and that she needs me to make her look good (remember I told you that she will ask me things, then use them as her own quotes....................she's on boards but has me jot down a few thoughts before she goes.....)
The money thing aside. If I never take another penny from her. Why do you think I should stay, Bunny?
Kelly
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Based on the few sessions he concluded that I didn't like my mom much and would probably be happier not working with her day in and day out. Why do you think that is so bad, Bunny?
Here is what I see as his mistake:
It's easy to quickly conclude that you'd be happier not working for your mother because you present it that way. A therapist needs to take more time to reflect on the situation. He shouldn't take people's words at face value. If he dispenses easy advice, does he deserve $100/hour? I don't think so. He colluded with your idea (and your mom's) that there is a "quick and easy" solution to this situation. He didn't analyze the complications or look at unconscious agendas and motives. This makes him lame in my view.
Is there some reason you feel I should stay other than good pay and flexibility? The way I react to her is a big issue. I am so hypersensitive to anything she says, I don't think she feels real safe around me - I let her have it at the drop of a hat. But that was after years and years of stuffing my anger. It is almost like I cannot NOT blow up when I'm around her. She really drives me crazy. And so many people have said to me that she will never change..........that is the part that scares me. That we will live the next twenty years in "walking on eggshells" mode. How can she want that? Why does she want me to stay so bad when she doesn't trust me? And I don't trust her. It's like I am holding my breath when I am around her waiting for some little thing to throw me over the deep end.
She does not think logically or rationally. She can tolerate your losing your temper. She knows you'll get over it. Actually you are dealing with a semi-irrational person. And you are also behaving less rationally because you don't have the skills to deal with her.
The reasons I think you might stay at this job are that (a) it's a good job; (b) you might choose another job that's even worse which will give you an excuse to return to this job anyway; (c) this job may be improvable if you get enough therapy to detach emotionally from your mother. Then she won't bother you that much.
You want to read your mother's mind. I can tell you that she is not thinking anything logical, useful, reasonable. It's all a bunch of crap. There is nothing useful to be found in pondering her mind. There is a lot more interesting stuff going on in your mind.
bunny
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Kelly,
You've never mentioned whether this company you work at with your mom is work that you like. I've only heard mention of pay and flexibility. So do you like the work and do you feel like the company is sustainable since you say it's not making money?
And if you pared down your personal expenses would you be able to take part time employment? That way you would have less expense and still have flexibility.
I have a different view of therapy. I have been to several and I find that most have their own particular schtick that only takes you so far. I did get a few nuggets of information. But I have to say I've done better on my own with a few recommendations of books, research and such. It does require real concerted effort but has ultimately been better for me. That's my own personal journey and maybe therapy does help other people. It just wasn't all that great for me.
MM
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Well MM and Bunny: Good to hear two arguments - for and against therapy. I can understand where you are coming from, Bunny. A therapist forces you to look at those things that you are in denial with. They hold you accountable to make changes.
But I know what you mean, MM, because I honestly know all the answers (because I have read every book on the subject and gone to hours of counseling.......) but it is just so easy to settle back into that comfortable uncomfortableness and try to just "get by." Problem with that is I always have this sense of discontentment. I'm not sure I will ever be over it. I read in the Bible where Paul says he has learned to be content in plenty or in want....and I don't have a clue about that.................I always live with an underlying sense of unrest....................with anticipation that something will change - for the good.
My job. Do I like it? Yes, I like it. It is a retail bookstore. Of course my "pet" category is the psychology and recovery section. I honestly have read every book, good and bad that we carry. Haven't read that one on Narcissistic Family, but am going to order it. Nice to have a bookstore. Can order books at a discount! :D
If and when my mom REALLY retires, I will love it. I honestly am the smartest person there (meaning I know how to do everything, from ordering to receiving, to computers to cash registers to you name it....) Plus I love working with customers. I am extremely outgoing and am a motivator to the employees. Most anyone who meets me would think that I am this happy-go-lucky person...I am great at playing a role. But those who know me and the dynamics with my mother can see how she gets under my skin......many of the long time employees get the same "you can do nothing right" treatment that I have gotten all my life. One came to me and said if my mom made me feel the way she makes her feel and I grew up with that kind of disapproval then she really feels sorry for me...." An employee said that to me!!! In fact (a boundary thing) many of the employees are my friends and talk to me about how they can't stand my mother................................or should I say that after 8 or 9 years they have seen through her image and have recognized how she REALLY is. I think this is the first position where people have actually gotten to know how she is. In her multi-level marketing success she was known as a very successful upline....................no one really knew her. She wore the persona well. Now people have seen through the persona and can see what a phoney she really is. But you know what, she doesn't care because they are just the "little" people who mean nothing to her. They are not worth her time or effort because they are just lowly employees - not anyone of importance who she has to impress.
There I go - mom bashing. I just can't stand the using my quotes as her own and making people think she knows what she is talking about when she doesn't.................it just irks me. She doesn't have a clue how to do anything around the store. She just walks around and sees everything that is wrong. She takes credit for any success we have ever had at the store. Maybe that's what an owner is supposed to do. Sit behind a desk and tell people what she expects of them then takes all the credit when someone recognizes your efforts......................don't know, I like to roll up my sleeves and work along side the employees...............meet them where they are.....
Kelly
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Oh my, Kelly. A book store. That's like a candy store to me. I'm afraid I wouldn't get anything done. I'd be on the floor reading some tome or other. It sounds like you really like it there save for mummy's interference. Ya know it sounds like she might be looking for a way out. Maybe you could suggest giving her a salary until it equals her investment so that you could eventually buy her out? That way she could retire and not be around.
I wish you would call that bossy nag, Dr. Laura :lol:
My husband likes listening to her and when we are in the car I ask him "honey, do you want to listen the the bossy nag"? He'll always say yes. She is an ESTJ personality type (as is Judge Judy), so if you do call her, you have to be very concrete. I'm not a concrete personality and I'm sure I would get nowhere with her. You sound like you might do better. It would be fun for grins if you can bear her ubiquitous impatient attitude. And she may actually give you something to work with? It might be a 50/50 proposition anyway. If you do it, please let us know how it goes.
MM
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A therapist forces you to look at those things that you are in denial with. They hold you accountable to make changes.
Uh, no. A therapist doesn't force you to do things. They don't hold you accountable to make changes. That isn't their function. Their function is to travel on a journey with you of exploration. And they are supposed to be like a guide who is experienced and safe. But sometimes we get mad at the guide, think the guide is a charlatan, a loser, or a persecutor. If it's a really good guide, he just keeps on guiding no matter what.
Unfortunately there are lame therapists who are mediocre or worse. They don't understand how change happens and they waste their clients' time. I always say: get a really good therapist, otherwise it's kind of pointless.
I am in favor of reading psych. and self help books but it is rather like comparing apples and oranges. But if you have a lame therapist, then reading books is definitely the better choice.
bunny
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When my schizophrenic mother cracked up for good (not to come back to even a semblance of normalcy until a few lucid moments towards the end of her life), I spent a lot of wasted time trying to figure out what the heck could be going on in her head. It is just as useless in this case, I agree. I needed to spend more time figuring out how I was going to deal with the situation.
Lizbeth
Based on the few sessions he concluded that I didn't like my mom much and would probably be happier not working with her day in and day out. Why do you think that is so bad, Bunny?
Here is what I see as his mistake:
It's easy to quickly conclude that you'd be happier not working for your mother because you present it that way. A therapist needs to take more time to reflect on the situation. He shouldn't take people's words at face value. If he dispenses easy advice, does he deserve $100/hour? I don't think so. He colluded with your idea (and your mom's) that there is a "quick and easy" solution to this situation. He didn't analyze the complications or look at unconscious agendas and motives. This makes him lame in my view.
Is there some reason you feel I should stay other than good pay and flexibility? The way I react to her is a big issue. I am so hypersensitive to anything she says, I don't think she feels real safe around me - I let her have it at the drop of a hat. But that was after years and years of stuffing my anger. It is almost like I cannot NOT blow up when I'm around her. She really drives me crazy. And so many people have said to me that she will never change..........that is the part that scares me. That we will live the next twenty years in "walking on eggshells" mode. How can she want that? Why does she want me to stay so bad when she doesn't trust me? And I don't trust her. It's like I am holding my breath when I am around her waiting for some little thing to throw me over the deep end.
She does not think logically or rationally. She can tolerate your losing your temper. She knows you'll get over it. Actually you are dealing with a semi-irrational person. And you are also behaving less rationally because you don't have the skills to deal with her.
The reasons I think you might stay at this job are that (a) it's a good job; (b) you might choose another job that's even worse which will give you an excuse to return to this job anyway; (c) this job may be improvable if you get enough therapy to detach emotionally from your mother. Then she won't bother you that much.
You want to read your mother's mind. I can tell you that she is not thinking anything logical, useful, reasonable. It's all a bunch of crap. There is nothing useful to be found in pondering her mind. There is a lot more interesting stuff going on in your mind.
bunny
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Geez, guys and gals, I didn't think I would get so much input on all of this..but thanks!!
Never figure my mom out. Only work on myself. Find a therapist who can work with me. Have an idea. Write out my bio - two to three pages and deliver it to the therapist before I go in. That way he can have all the preliminary stuff read and we can jump right in on working on me and how I am going to deal................
It's all about liking me. Knowing that I will never be able to change Nmom. Knowing that if I allow her to, she will hold all the keys to my future. If I just show her love and patience and act like I don't care what she does (like I do with the tuition to the private school - don't care so she doesn't hold it against me...............) then I can live life without so much angst.
But what do I do when she pushes my buttons at work? Last week she whispered under her breath if I was going to say something to a key employee about a piercing that Nmom doesn't like....................and I said no. Then I remained silent. It killed her.
But am I to just ignore her? It doesn't seem very professional.
Work on Kelly. Work on Kelly. Can't change mom. Can't change mom!!
Good night and have a pleasant tomorrow!
:lol: :lol:
Kell
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Have an idea. Write out my bio - two to three pages and deliver it to the therapist before I go in. That way he can have all the preliminary stuff read and we can jump right in on working on me and how I am going to deal................
Interesting. The therapist should read a 2-3 page bio before you even meet them. BTW they will be curious about why you want to control the process so much. Also why you want to do the therapy outside the session hour. I'm interested myself.
It's all about liking me. Knowing that I will never be able to change Nmom. Knowing that if I allow her to, she will hold all the keys to my future. If I just show her love and patience and act like I don't care what she does (like I do with the tuition to the private school - don't care so she doesn't hold it against me...............) then I can live life without so much angst.
You don't have to show her love or patience but I agree with the rest.
But what do I do when she pushes my buttons at work? Last week she whispered under her breath if I was going to say something to a key employee about a piercing that Nmom doesn't like....................and I said no. Then I remained silent. It killed her.
You handled this nicely. If you had a therapist, you could vent to him about what a whack-job your mother is, while maintaining a professional demeanor at work.
But am I to just ignore her? It doesn't seem very professional.
It is professional to ignore someone who whispers under their breath.
Keep up the good work,
bunny
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Yes, this clandestine, "them against Us" mentality. When it is really "us against you, lady...."
I have had this feeling that I have had to "protect" my employees from my mother. Maybe I am trying to keep them from knowing how it feels to be constantly nitpicked..................it's not a very comfortable feeling. Even the girl with the piercing told me that my mom constantly comes up to her and actually picks off pieces of lint or hairs from her clothing..something she has done to me forever. It's almost like she is trying to come up to you and straighten the way you look. Another thing she does (and I wish i could videotape her doing this and then play it back to her) is manipulate and contort her face and body as I am speaking.....almost like she can control what I am saying by her body language?
So here's the newest test. She and I get invited to California for some RR with a marketing group we belong to. Last year they served some nice wine, or pop or juice. I was going to have a glass of wine but I knew it would make my mom so uncomfortable ("we don't drink, we don't cuss and we don't smoke.............) so I didn't. This year, I will. Gutsy, huh? And that from a 45 year old woman who really doesn't drink anymore (used to abuse it in my teens and 20s..) Sick, isn't it that I even have to declare I am going to do that. Or care.
She'll probably get mad at me and in the next "encounter" we have she'll bring that up. Then I'll want to run as fast as I can away from her.
Kell
PS And Bunny, do you think the therapist would be open to reading the bio? Or that he would think I too controlling? Didn't get your statement
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Interesting. The therapist should read a 2-3 page bio before you even meet them. BTW they will be curious about why you want to control the process so much. Also why you want to do the therapy outside the session hour. I'm interested myself.
That's the quote I was trying to paste.......new to this but am experimenting with smileys and quotes and stuff...........
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Wow, Kell, I just caught up on the last 3 pages here. A book-store! I wouldn’t want to leave. It sounds like my kinda job. Got some thoughts for you…
When it is really "us against you, lady...."
No it isn’t. You know that right? It’s you against her, no-one else.
I have had this feeling that I have had to "protect" my employees from my mother.
Well you don’t. It doesn’t help either them or you. I did this too, ‘protected’ my staff from my boss. It’s a waste of time (unless you are actually representing your staff when your boss is taking an unrealistic view of what they do etc). People aren’t going to ‘see the light’ and respect you more, or recognise your achievements and worth, simply because you ‘protect’ them. It doesn’t happen. Sad but true. Yes, you need to take the responsibilities that go with your position (which is..?) ie. manage staff? but you can’t then be 'one of them' too. With your mom in overall control, which is how it reads, staff see you as your mother’s daughter, which is not the same as being one of them. And you say ‘your employees’ so you’re managing them, right? They are not primarily your friends when they are at work.
Even the girl with the piercing told me that my mom constantly comes up to her and actually picks off pieces of lint or hairs from her clothing
What did you say to the girl? What would have been a managerial, professional, self-respecting response? If you entered into a conversation with her about what your mom is like….you destroy any boundaries that might exist. You make your employee – your employee – your co-conspirator and your allay against your mother. What does the employee think? If you do talk to employees like this, they won’t have any real respect for you and they’ll use the situation to mould their working environment to what suits them best, winding you up in the process. Do you think it’s okay for employees to come to work with lint and hairs on their clothes? Maybe it is okay to a point (my H is allergic to cat and dog hairs. I don’t want to buy books with those hairs on them). But have you made a decision about whether this employee actually dresses appropriately or not? Every little tiny event like this needs proper, careful consideration. Not the quick and easy way out, blame mom.
Saying ‘no’ to mom about mentioning the piercing is good. Saying ‘no, I don’t see a problem with it, do you?’ would be addressing a difference of opinion to reach a solution. And whose decision would prevail? Who has the final say on such matters? If you’re working in a situation where roles and responsibilities are not clear-cut, why don’t you get some job descriptions written? If you want to be responsible for front-of-house, for the day-to-day operation of the store, say so, get it written, agree. Then you’ll be able to say ‘No, I think the piercing is fine, in line with our image’ or whatever. What do you think about the piercing? If you’ve got a pretty conservative clientele, maybe your piercing-sporting employee will lose you business? What are your real views on this miniscule issue and why? Just stuff for you to consider. (Do you approve of the piercing simply because your mom won’t???)
I was going to have a glass of wine but I knew it would make my mom so uncomfortable
You knew that you would feel uncomfortable, not your mom. Not having a glass of wine is YOUR problem, your decision. You decided not to drink because you didn’t want to deal with the consequences. How you react to your mom is your responsibility. She does not ‘make you’ do anything. Take a fake reefer too and try lighting it up. No don’t, what’s the point. You’d only be ‘getting back’ at her, trying to shock. I shouldn’t recommend anything so childish and adversarial….tempting though those sort of responses may be. They achieve nothing.
I love your openness to comments Kell. You remind me of parts of me and a few people I’ve worked with. And you seem up for it. When you said earlier in the thread that you were emotional about the posts here, have you thought hard about what caused that response? Just for your thoughts. Take it easy! Best, Portia, yeah, sorry, aka Lottery guest as if I’m not like a pimple on my own nose.
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Portia: Ok, the first thing that jumps out at me is the lack of boundaries I have with my employees. Yes, I admit I have rallied them around me. And it has become us against HER. Why did I do this? Well as I think about it, it is the first time in my life that I have been able to expose her for the phoney that she really is. It is the first time that some regular people could see through the persona and actually see the dysfunction.
It first started when she hired a guy as the manager and she started throwing little hissy fits when he would do things without consulting her. He and I had a conversation where he told me he had never been micromanaged before. He was the guy who gave me "permission" to divorce my husband. My mom wouldn't.
Then later my boyfriend came to work for us. She didn't want us living in "sin" so she offered that he could live in her basement. Well, the next thing you know my dad is saying that he didn't feel like the man of the house anymore. My boyfriend was coming and going as he pleased. Not showing up and not calling in to work. He'd come in later in the evening with liquor on his breath and the employees started coming to me with their frustrations about him. We broke up and all hell broke loose when I demanded that we let him go!! My mom defended him.
So since then............about three years ago. In fact it was three years ago in October 2001 that I declared war with my mom and the business was pretty much rocked. We fought and fought.....and I finally left. It was almost like my mom and my ex-boyfriend were having an emotional affair.....................it felt like she chose him and his well being over me. I felt betrayed.
So even though I love this job, a lot of water has gone under the bridge. The employees don't respect her for siding with him and they probably don't respect me because I thrash talk my mom. And even when I go up to the nucleus of employees and tell them that I am going to stop talking negatively about my mom, when she does something that bothers them, they run right to me and spill their guts!
K
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Hiya again Kell, phew, the more you say, the more I feel way out of my depth. On the Bio Q, would you expect the therp to read your bio for free, in his/her time? Or in your first session?
About the business: seriously, clearly defined job roles are needed for you and mom. And then you both need to stick to them. Literally separating out your jobs! And keeping off each other's stuff. She doesn't mess with the store, you stay away from judging her sales pitches, or whatever they are.
Did someone above mention buying her out? What a great solution. Maybe she could be a freelance 'buyer' or 'rep' or some grand title? She gets a salary and you take control.
Everything must be in writing. It usually is, in business. P
PS: that I have been able to expose her for the phoney that she really is
does this help anyone? Does this achieve anything for you?
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The ONLY thing it does for me is give me some peace of mind. Somehow it makes me not alone in this saga...............does it accomplish anything else? Probably not. Is it good? No. It just helps me to justify my feelings. You know, everyone wants to think that their parents will love and nurture them and when you find out that the relationship has always been one of control and not nurture, it feels good to expose the abuser!!!
It's like being required to report abuse when you see it in a daycare or something like that. It's like I got to report her abuse! Not that it did me any good. Probably made me look bad.
Buy her out? No. She has too much money in the business. We will pay her back slowly but I think it will probably take 20 years or more!! And she doesn't even get a paycheck. The business cannot afford it and she doesn't need the money (remember she's got lots already......)
And the bio for the therapist. Don't you think it would take 5 sessions just to get through the stuff to be able to work on the stuff? If he read it the first session and he read my conclusions, maybe he would be like you guys and tell me I am being totally stupid. Or I need boundaries or something! I just hate to waste time trying to get to the bottom of it all when I already know what I think is the problem.
Whatya think?
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I have had this feeling that I have had to "protect" my employees from my mother. Maybe I am trying to keep them from knowing how it feels to be constantly nitpicked..................it's not a very comfortable feeling. Even the girl with the piercing told me that my mom constantly comes up to her and actually picks off pieces of lint or hairs from her clothing..something she has done to me forever.
Does the employee ask your mother to please stop touching her? That might solve the problem.
Another thing she does (and I wish i could videotape her doing this and then play it back to her) is manipulate and contort her face and body as I am speaking.....almost like she can control what I am saying by her body language?
This is a perfect thing to bring up in a therapy session...
So here's the newest test. She and I get invited to California for some RR with a marketing group we belong to. Last year they served some nice wine, or pop or juice. I was going to have a glass of wine but I knew it would make my mom so uncomfortable ("we don't drink, we don't cuss and we don't smoke.............) so I didn't. This year, I will. Gutsy, huh? And that from a 45 year old woman who really doesn't drink anymore (used to abuse it in my teens and 20s..) Sick, isn't it that I even have to declare I am going to do that. Or care.
If you drink the wine and she gets mad at you, can you plan a strategy ahead of time? How you will respond to her?
PS And Bunny, do you think the therapist would be open to reading the bio? Or that he would think I too controlling? Didn't get your statement.
Okay here is more of an explanation. You send a therapist whom you haven't met, and don't know whether you will see again, a several-page autobiography to save time. A therapist probably has seen a few of these before (from others) and because of his training and knowledge, has certain ideas about a potential client who sends written material prior to the first session. The therapist's idea will be something like this: (a) the potential client is extremely anxious; (b) the potential client is impatient to get to the "magical solution;" (c) the patient doesn't want to spontaneously tell me her story over time; (d) the patient wants to control the speed of the therapy and how I learn her story; (e) the patient may be sending this bio to other therapists as a "form letter" so it's impersonal which says something about her wish to keep a safe distance; (f) the patient wants the therapist to be readily available outside the boundaries of the therapy session; etc. Well, I could go on but I'll stop here.
bunny
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And the bio for the therapist. Don't you think it would take 5 sessions just to get through the stuff to be able to work on the stuff?
I think it would take a lot more than five sessions and it would come out in small titrations, not as a summary of your life and problems.
If he read it the first session and he read my conclusions, maybe he would be like you guys and tell me I am being totally stupid.
I doubt that anyone thinks you are totally stupid. And if a therapist says or implies it, he would be totally stupid.
Or I need boundaries or something! I just hate to waste time trying to get to the bottom of it all when I already know what I think is the problem.
The therapist will not criticize/judge you about your boundaries. I know you don't want to take time to process your feelings but it's far more effective to do that.
bunny
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Hi Kelly,
Just wanted to chime in on the subject of writing to a therapist. I think bunny has some great points about writing an initial bio and sending it to a therapist. This whole process takes time, and if you knew everything about everything that's going on and upsetting you, you wouldn't be here, right? You'd be happy in whatever solution you'd found for dealing with your mother and living a fulfilled life, right?
But in terms of writing in general, I just wanted to share this. With one exception, my therapist never reads anything I bring into our sessions. She always asks me to read out loud because that helps her understand how I've heard and interpreted something. She's more interested in helping me find ways of dealing with a situation that's true to myself than she is in telling me the 'right' way to handle any situation.
Hang in there,
Wildflower
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Well, I am tired so I'll make this short. I guess I have to make an appointment, don't I? And trying to decide what each of us does? She micromanages everything, but I have noticed her spending more time away since our outburst a few weeks ago. Her mom is depressed (her 91 year old husband is slipping................disoriented, paranoid....) so mom is spending more time trying to help gram.
It will work out. I'll just have to work on myself so I can live the next half of my life with some optimism.
Good night all, Kell
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Boy, it seems like there are a lot of new postees on the board. Guess all the advise I have been getting can help them, too.
I really appreciate everything that all of you have inputted.............so much to think about and to process.
Kelly
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Hi Kell,
Sounds like you’re doing some serious sorting out and you maybe don’t need any more suggestions right now – but – ha ha! – just a small one to add
And trying to decide what each of us does? She micromanages everything, but I have noticed her spending more time away
You don’t have to decide this on your own do you? Or do you? I don’t know. Maybe you could ask her if she wants to talk about defining your respective roles a little more clearly. Or maybe even ask if she needs to spend more time away, because that would be okay with you, if she’d like to….? Just a thought. Take care Kell, P
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Portia: Oh we've had these conversations, believe me. I have worked with her for ten and 1/2 years.................I have been so frustrated for so many years. Like I said in the earlier posts, she had a facelift in February so she set herself up to HAVE to take more time off. She told everyone she was backing off, drawing a line in the sand, spending more time with my dad, transitioning the business to me, all as a ploy so she could take six weeks off to get this facelift. When she came back and had obviously had a facelift, everyone knew it was a lie. But she couldn't renege on all she had stated so I have the benefit of that..............but she comes in at least once a week and the meetings are hell. She complains about everything and everyone................but since we had a blow up a few weeks ago it has been so much better. That was about the time I started posting to this forum. I did some internet searches on Narcississm and came up with this, and thank God it has helped me much!!
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Hi All! I am back with some news. I let this forum take a rest to contemplate all the advise I have gotten - thanks again!
So last week I applied for a job and got an immediate response the very next day. I had a telephone interview on Thursday, an in-person interview on Friday, another in-person interview on Saturday, tomorrow I take a personality test and on Wednesday I meet the owners of the business. If they give their blessing, I will be offered a job! Brand new business. I will be the manager. So now I am scared!
What if they offer me the job? The money is supposed to be comparable. The first month will be demanding with training in another city but after that I make my own schedule!
But I am freaking out! I know my Nmom is going to have a cow!! StaceyLynn - I know what you are thinking. Bunny? Don't know what you think?!
I almost feel like I have been shoved into a time warp. It is all happening sooooo fast! Almost too fast. I'm afraid if I say yes to the job that I will be burning all the bridges back to the job with my mom. But isn't that what I really want anyway? To get away from mom? But what about all that flexibility and the great hours (9-3 M-f)?
My husband says he will step up to the plate and fill in where needed.
Just freaking out and need some input!!
Kelly
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Kelly,
Well, do you like this new job? That makes a big difference. If the job is exciting (even if scary), give it a shot. Believe me, you can return to your old job.
bunny
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Oh, it sounds great! But what if I don't cut the mustard? I mean, I know I will, but it is the insecurity creeping in. I know if I don't accept it I will kick myself from here to eternity..........but if I do accept it then I know I will have to put up with a lot of crap! My mom will freak. The employees at my business will freak, too. No one will want me to leave.......but.....
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Our entire family, seven girls and one boy, all worked in the family business. both parents are n's, as my therapist so appropriately informed my my father would hit me over the head with the two by four and my mom just nudged me towards it.
All I can tell you is that as each one of us married someone that they approved of or didn't, was not the issue. my parents knew about molestation by in laws, alcohol and drug problems, infidelity, etc... all happening among and between us. all the the almighty dollar. not until my mom died and with her death came the "permission" to get well, the motivation to move away and save our children from the crazy behavior that controls your every thought and being.
our family is split, half still hanging in there an trying to please and appease the n-father. the four of us that have separated, well, all I can tell you is that when we see each other we laugh, and support each other , we are truly happy, happy probably for the first time in my life. our children feel safe and want to be with their cousins and their aunts and uncles. was it worth it?!! I wish I would have separated years ago.
There is no way to fix where you are. If you cannot leave, start to develop an invisible barrier between your mom and you. picture in your mind a steel wall that she cannot climb over, sneak under, cut through or get through. that is the only way you interact with her. look for no approval, no love, no validation and keep your kids away from her. she will poison their minds, and create havoc.....
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Kelly,
The fears and insecurities are warranted. After all, your Nmom has convinced you that you belong to her!
Now's the time to prove you are a grownup and can take care of yourself - prove it to her and to yourself.
If you get to set you own hours, your worries are taken care of. You have already been successful running your Nmom's business - with all the damage your Nmom caused at your present job.
Think of how successful you can be without her!
Congratulations on the interview and follow-ups. At least you have taken the first step and you are still moving forward. Even if this position does not work out for whatever reason, you are doing something positive for yourself! Way to go girl!
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By the way - that was Ellie - forgot to log in :oops:
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Oh, it sounds great! But what if I don't cut the mustard? I mean, I know I will, but it is the insecurity creeping in. I know if I don't accept it I will kick myself from here to eternity..........but if I do accept it then I know I will have to put up with a lot of crap! My mom will freak. The employees at my business will freak, too. No one will want me to leave.......but.....
Kelly, This isn't a permanent decision, it's just a job. Hey, this is America, we can change jobs whenever we want! If your mom and the employees freak, that's their choice. They'll get over it pretty fast. We're all expendable. And you can return, I'm sure.
bunny
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Hey guys, thanks for the input. You're right. This is America! We can come and go as we please. I remember leaving a job in 1986 and wondering if there was a life outside of that one - and by now the building has been bulldozed, so there was definately life after that!!
I have had four interviews - today was the final one with the owners of the business. I wasn't pumped thinking I got the job...............in fact, it was the first time in the process that I wasn't extremely confident. But it may be my own insecurities sabotaging the whole process! The owner asked me point blank - if you are feeling uncomfortable in a month or two, you cannot run back to your mommy!! Basically saying if they offer me the job and I accept it, they want me for the long haul!!!
Then another wise person told me that if I decide to accept the job, I owe it to my mother to tell her first, instead of letting many other people know and having her hear it through the grapevine.............
So now I am waiting to see if they will offer me the job. I'm not holding my breath. I just didn't feel like I was a shoe-in. Maybe I am over analyzing the whole process. The wife of the man and wife team kept yawning during the process and she wasn't smiling either. She is of a different nationality and maybe their culture is less gregarious than ours..but I felt a little uneasy around her. The husband was nice.
We'll see!
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The owner asked me point blank - if you are feeling uncomfortable in a month or two, you cannot run back to your mommy!! Basically saying if they offer me the job and I accept it, they want me for the long haul!!!
Actually you can run back to your mommy and they can't stop you. But yes it may prevent them from hiring you. How do they know that you have this dependency with your mother....?
If you accept the job, give notice like anyone else. Don't let it filter around as a rumor, that is unprofessional.
This is a free country and you can do whatever you want.
Good luck and I hope you get it. If not, there are other jobs!
bunny
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From Kelly;
Well I am REALLY upset! I applied for this last job and they basically pounced on me! The day after I applied they contacted me. I went to an initial interview - they loved me. I came back (two hour drive) the next day and had a second interview. I took a pyschology test online. Then I met the owners. Remember I didn't feel very good about that interview? Well they asked me to provide references and told me they would contact me the next week. That was LAST week.
Nothing. No contact of my references. No phone calls. No DEAR JOHN letters - yet. I went to the website and the job was no longer posted - meaning they hired someone else, right? So I sent a polite email to tell them I enjoyed the process and that I assumed they had given the job to someone else. NOTHING.
Geez! I felt like they pushed me through a time warp and I came out the other end with no safety net!!!
Oh well, I was scared about making the leap and they probably sensed that of me. And I would have had to go to Omaha for four weeks of training and my family almost fell apart when I was gone for five days!!
So anyway? What do you think?????????????????
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I think you didn't get the job. And that this employer doesn't notify people who don't get the job. In fact, this employer avoids people who don't get the job. And you're probably lucky you didn't get the job because the employer sounds creepy at this point.
bunny
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Hi Kelly,
This is the job search process. Expect rejection. Expect inconvenience. It isn't personal. In fact, they may have loved you and loved someone else. It happens.
Take this as a learning experience to the next round. What did you get out of this experience? A practice round to learn how to come in more confidently next time. After all, how many job interviews have you ever gone to? In other words, look at this as a journey, not just a black-and-white win/lose situation. Perhaps there is a better job waiting for you somewhere else. When you go shopping, do you buy the first outfit you see or look at all options? OK, so someone bought the first outfit you saw and it's gone now.
That was Round One. Eat some ice cream, feel better and keep looking. :D You can do it. We're looking forward to hearing about your next opportunity!
Seeker
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Hi Kelly,
That's great you had the interviews and all. That is the first step towards finding what you want. It's too bad you can't just talk with your mom and tell her what you think about things and somehow get her blessing to find another job. Can you involve your dad in this and talk with both your parents with your husband backing you up? Is there anyway you can "sell" your portion of the business back to your mom? Since the business was bought for you it seems like you should be able to tell your mom it isn't working out for you. I know its hard but maybe your mom is tired of the business. These are just ideas and I know our moms are for the most part impossible but maybe you can find an angle she could agree with. Just some thoughts here....maybe you can brainstorm with that aunt of yours that seems to understand. I think I remember an aunt. Anyway, maybe you have already tried to talk to your mom about wanting something different...she doesn't have to know that it is her that is bothering you. Sorry if you have already covered these ideas here.
Take care Kelly
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Kelly here.......all good advice and thank you! Guess what? I had asked someone I trust before this rejection ( :? ) and they told me I should be up front with my mom and not drop a bomb on her after I got the job. So i emailed her (can't talk to her - it just gets too yucky...............) and told her I had applied for several jobs and that if a good enough one comes along then I would take it.............................meanwhile my grandmother's husband just died and my mom has been so preoccupied with being a good daughter that it appears (we'll see......) that she is backing off.
Maybe this job interview was just what the doctor ordered. It gave me the "get up and go" that I needed.
I finally did get an email back from their HR person who politely told me they had recently filled that position. Crazy! They treat you like you are their next hiree and then nothing. Oh well, you are right about thinking they are kind of creepy. Anyone who would be the epitome of professionalism during the process and then drop you like a hot potato doesn't seem like an organization I would want to work for.
Plus the owners were of a different nationality than I am and although I do not consider myself prejudiced in the least, I wonder if the ethnic differences would have been a detriment? Don't know. Sometimes I think certain groups of people have different ideas on work ethics, etc. Some nationalities work long and hard..................................too long and hard for a mother of three!!
Honestly, I think my mother is backing off. At our meeting last week she seemed so detached.
I keep looking in the newspaper but nothing really has jumped out at me as a possibility...............I guess I'll just do the best that I can.
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I finally did get an email back from their HR person who politely told me they had recently filled that position. Crazy! They treat you like you are their next hiree and then nothing. Oh well, you are right about thinking they are kind of creepy. Anyone who would be the epitome of professionalism during the process and then drop you like a hot potato doesn't seem like an organization I would want to work for.
This is not so unusual. I have been going through this for a year now. I am quite qualified for my line of work (waitress), worked at one of the top restaurants, have excellent references. I have come away from my interviews feeling full of promise and then - nothing.
On the other hand, I have been hired at a few establishments this past year, that once there, I knew I did not fit.
Plus the owners were of a different nationality than I am and although I do not consider myself prejudiced in the least, I wonder if the ethnic differences would have been a detriment? Don't know.
I have thought this quite possible in my case. At one interview the manager told me that just seeing where I came from previously he knew I fit right in with his menu (East West fusion), that I would require very little training, and that I had experience and the required professionalism that he wanted. But I went away knowing that if some sharp asian walked in with similar qualifications, that my fair skin would be outed. I never heard from him again. Even with a follow up phone call. This happened again at a popular Mediteranian restaraunt. I went in, saw every employee was dark skinned, and even though the interview was good, I wasn't the least surprised to not get called back.
The process is no fun, but it is important to keep our spirits up and not take it personally. With each interview, I consider it practice.
Hang in there. :D Phoenix
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Phoenix: I, too, have had some practice. I have had lots of interviews. I left once, and then realized it wasn't all it was cracked up to be. I had a few interviews with great companies but they couldn't pay me what I have been making so I declined......this was the first company whose pay scale was up to what I am making now.
Well, if I am to leave it is all about the "perfect" job. I don't think any exist. Even the job I have now is not perfect even if mom steps aside. The bad habits that the employees have are going to be hard to break. Change is VERY hard. Most are really passive-aggressive!!
Good to know that the ethnic thing wasn't just me. I think I might have offended the wife and I'm not sure why..........................maybe my psychological exam exposed me as an egomaniac or something!! Or worse - a narcissist![/quote]
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Phoenix: I, too, have had some practice. I have had lots of interviews. I left once, and then realized it wasn't all it was cracked up to be. I had a few interviews with great companies but they couldn't pay me what I have been making so I declined......this was the first company whose pay scale was up to what I am making now.
Well, if I am to leave it is all about the "perfect" job. I don't think any exist. Even the job I have now is not perfect even if mom steps aside. The bad habits that the employees have are going to be hard to break. Change is VERY hard. Most are really passive-aggressive!!
Good to know that the ethnic thing wasn't just me. I think I might have offended the wife and I'm not sure why..........................maybe my psychological exam exposed me as an egomaniac or something!! Or worse - a narcissist!
[/quote]
Is this Kelly responding to my post? I thought you had a husband, if so...? Doesn't really change my post but wondering all the same. :?: Phoenix
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This is Kelly..................no, what I meant was...............I think I might have offended the wife of the husband and wife owners of the company.....yes, I have a husband and yes I am a woman.............I just saw a bunch of pictures on the wall of the owners with famous people and as I looked over them I just assumed they were all pictures of the owner and his wife...........................so when I commented that she had met the president, she said, "That's not me, that's my sister-in-law holding my son.....................he's the one in our family that met the president...." And honestly, I couldn't tell the difference..............they had the same haircut and they were both of a different nationality.........same height, same built..................I screwed up. If someone of a different nationality saw a tall woman with dark hair holding a baby and to me it was obviously not me and they commented that I had met the famous person in the picture, I would probably be offended, too!
Another thing that happened is I mentioned that in the personality test I had taken that they asked questions like "Do you often wish you could be famous and everyone would know who you are?" And she said, "Do you?" And I said, "No...............well, I think everyone thinks it would be cool to be famous at one time or another.........................." She probably thought I was full of myself.......................
Oh, well, live and learn!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
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Ha ha! Thanks for clarifying.
My dad's side of the family is super sensitive to their nose; something I was at one time overly sensitive too, but time has put thier viewpoint of beauty into different perspective for me. So anyway, I always had the "Rogers" nose (dad's family). One day at my aunt's new home, my mom's sister, I saw a picture of myself on her shelf. I couldn't for the life of me figure out where she got that picture. I realized it was my couisin, who I had never met! I exclaimed at our likeness. My aunt said, but your cousin always wonders where the heck did she get that nose? My mom and I in unison answered- from the "Rogers" family. Take care, Phoenix
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Kelly here.................well, you mean you can mistake one anglo saxon white protestant woman from the next??????????? They all look alike!!
Oh well, it wasn't meant to be. In fact, I think I inadvertantly sabotaged myself during the last interview. The first one I was so smooth.....they loved me..................and I could TELL they loved me, so the next one I wasn't as confident and the last one I pretty much looked like a bumbling idiot - but you know what? I KNOW I was the idiot, no nmom had to imply that I was an idiot................it almost makes me laugh.............