Voicelessness and Emotional Survival Message Board
Voicelessness and Emotional Survival => Voicelessness and Emotional Survival Message Board => Topic started by: JustKathy on June 17, 2009, 05:48:46 PM
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My therapist has gone on vacation, and I’ve got no one to turn to. Maybe some of you here can offer some words of wisdom, advice, or even meaningless chit chat. I’ll take anything. I apologize for the length. Please, no one needs to feel obligated to read it. I just had to start typing to get some of this off of my chest.
I knew that I would be faced with this eventually, but thought it would be a long way off. In fact, I had convinced myself that my N mother was so evil that she couldn’t be killed, and would probably outlive me. But the other day I found out that she has terminal cancer with a six-month prognosis.
My mother’s heinous treatment of me could fill a novel, so I’ll try to give to keep it as brief as possible.
It started when I became a teenager. She could no longer possess/control me, and she wigged out. She spent two years trying to manipulate me, and sabotaged my every move while in high school, and when that didn’t turn me back into an eight-year-old, she disowned me. She plays this game - a foot-stomping temper-tantrum, in which she announces, “I’m not speaking to you,” which she follows through on, sometimes for years on end, until she has a use for you. I left home on my 18th birthday, and she refused to speak to me for seven years after that (though I got my share of nasty letters, and my relatives got an earful of lies about me being a drug addict, a prostitute, bla bla bla).
Through all of this, she remained incredibly convincing (as most Ns are), and would suddenly turn into June Cleaver at family get-togethers. On Christmas morning, all of my relatives saw a perfect, loving mother. Then the next day, I was disowned again. No one believed me. Only my grandmother (her own mother) saw through it. She was the ONLY one.
My father was so completely under her control that he was afraid to stand up to her. When I left home, I was living on the streets, and when I begged him to loan me the money for food, the response was “Your mother says no, I can’t help you.” He stuck his head in the sand the day this all began, where it’s remained ever since (I’m now 49). He has always, ALWAYS done what she tells him to do.
About 7 years ago, my Grandmother passed away, and the torment got worse than ever. (From what I’ve been told, when an N’s authority figure passes away, they kick it into high gear, as there is no longer anyone to keep them in check). I was breaking down from the stress, got anxiety disorder, chronic fatigue, depression, you name it. Both my therapist and my psych recommended that I cut ties with M, which I did. The more she lost control, the more she turned up the heat, and tried manipulating me through letters and emails to both myself and my husband (who she tried VERY hard to turn against me). At Christmas, beautifully wrapped gift boxes would arrive containing nothing but nasty notes. It goes on and on. When I’ve tried to tell my father, I get the same reaction . . .”lalalalalalala I can’t hear you.” I have a box full of nasty letters that no one has ever seen. I won’t lower myself to her level by passing them around to other relatives.
SO . . . now she’s down to her final months, and my father is coming unhinged. She raised a totally dysfunctional family, and he now has to deal with the consequences of her actions. I want to be there for my father, but can’t (and won’t) do some of the things that he expects of me, like asking me to call her and “mend our differences.” He made the same request of me back in High School, and when I tried to talk to her, the response was, “I have no daughter. You’re dead to me,” followed by some foot stomping. My father is clueless. He thinks we just "don’t get along."
I know that if I were to call my mother, the ONLY thing she would want to hear would be me apologizing for being a disappointment to her. No. I can't do that to myself. If anything, she should be calling ME and apologizing for "boycotting" my HS graduation, my college graduation, for showing up at my wedding and causing a scene, for selling all of my childhood possessions on eBay, for trying to sabotage my career, etc etc etc. But she won’t. It's the nature of an N. In her mind I deserved it. She's done nothing wrong.
The rest of my family is dysfunctional beyond belief. My sister (two years younger) freaked out so badly after watching me being tormented in HS that she crawled into a shell and became my mother’s slave. She lives next door to M, does whatever M tells her to do, has no friends, and has never dated. She never answers her phone, but does send me a covert holiday card once a year. She’ll probably be the one who gets guilted into dealing with most of this.
My younger brother was the golden child and was treated like royalty. He wanted for nothing. Subsequently, he grew up with no use for anyone who isn’t giving him money or gifts. He married a woman EXACTLY like M, who emailed hubby and I and told us they were cutting ties with us because they were disgusted by our “cheap” Christmas gifts, and that they were, in short, too good for us. Psycho-wife now won’t let my brother visit his own family, or even answer the phone, so M won’t be seeing much of HIM. (Side note: I just changed my posting ID because SIL has been stalking me on the Net).
So here I am with this mess that I know will only get worse.
Does anyone here watch “Rescue Me?” There was a recent scene with a dying WWII vet at the VA hospital, who was estranged from his son because he married a Japanese woman. He asks one of the volunteers to track down his son, so he can make peace with him. The son shows up, and the old guy immediately makes a racial slur about the Japanese wife, then says, “There. Now I can die happy.” When my father requested that I call or visit, hubby immediately reminded me of that scene.
Okay, I’m rambling like heck. Has anyone else gone through this, or is maybe going through it now? I really think I need to hear from others with N parents. I have a great therapist who I’ll be seeing on Monday, but only others who have lived with N parents truly “get” it.
If you made it this far, thank you for reading. I feel better just being able to vent.
Kathy
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Hi Kathy There's only one fact and that is you don't know how your mother will respond to a call or a visit from you. Your husband is trying to protect you in the same way mine would. Cancer changes people. Knowing you are going to die changes people. You may be so ready for negativity from your mother - or still so angry with her for the past - that you could create a negative situation out of something which could be positive.
So...the question is : what can you live with when she's dead?
Sometimes it's difficult to know how we would feel. We think we know and then death comes along and changes everything.
i made one last attempt to have a relationship with my father and he wasn't interested. All he wanted was for me and my mother to get on (very similar dynamic to your family) but I discovered that, on his deathbed, he expressed something quite different. I am so thankful I turned up to meet him again because he gave me the greatest gift : I know that he loved me and always had even tho he had never previously been able to express it.
I've made my peace with my mother. I really don't want to get embroiled again. I dragged her back from a moment when she could have died because I felt I had failed her. And now I wish she'd let go of me and go in peace. I no longer feel I've failed her because I've done EVERYTHING I possibly could to look after her and ensure she's alright. And got thoroughly damaged in the process. I nearly gave up my life for her! And now I want it back. I don't want to get damaged any more. I want to concentrate on my own health and strength. Unfortunately she's not the sort of mother you can explain that to!
But I've recently met strong elderly women - in their 80s and 90s - who have no intention of putting strain on their daughters - they each have their own lives. I can hardly conceive of how that is possible. But they are great role models.
If you didn't make contact with your mother, would you always wonder what might have happened? Or is the possibility of temporary or permanent damage and disruption in your lives too much of a risk? And how would your decision affect your relationship with your father? And does it matter to you?
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Hi Kathy,
I am so glad I found this website this morning. Your post was like a beacon to me. This is the first post I read and it prompted me to become a member :) . You are definitely not alone and my heart goes out to you. Your story is very similar to mine and believe when i say i can relate. My father was very similar to yours although he is now passed away and never got to escape the hold my mother had over him. My younger brother was the golden boy who also married an a person with traits similar to my mom. Thankfully he realized how disfunctional their marriage was and got out.
I think of my mom all the time and try to shake the overwhelming sadness that flows over me. We have not had a relationship for several years now. She would constantly banish me from her life as well. Though she has been in the hospital for 3 months now, she has made no attempt to reach me or given me any hope that her narcissistic views of the world and me have changed. My family and friends understand how manipulative and cruel she is and have warned me not to go to her. They know that it will only cause further heartache on my end. Even her own siblings have formed a protective shield around me as she is no longer fooling anyone with her manipulative routines.
I don't know the extent of her illness because she has given strict orders for the hospital not to communicate with anyone.
I want to thank you for story from rescue me. It gave me chills. I can image a similar thing happening if I went to see my mom. I need to let go of any fantasy of her suddenly becoming a caring mother in her dying days. So far she has made no attempt to reach out and I am leaving the ball in her court. She is more than a failure as mother. She is a perpetrator of major pain in her children's lives.
Someone told me recently that it is not my job is not to look after my mother. It was HER JOB to look after me and she failed miserably. What my job today is look after my husband and kids and be emotionally happy and strong for them. Not to let her suck the life and happiness out of me so that I am not the full person I need to be for my family now.
It is hard for me to find closure to this horrible situation. Nothing really feels "right" about any of it. But I do know that I need to accept her for who she is and get on with my life.
I am so glad that there are other people who get this kind of pain.
You are not alone Kathy and you deserved better. Treat yourself with loving kindness everyday.
Cathy
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Rosencrantz - I don't know your story but I do know that your comment "There's only one fact and that is you don't know how your mother will respond to a call or a visit from you. Your husband is trying to protect you in the same way mine would. Cancer changes people. Knowing you are going to die changes people. You may be so ready for negativity from your mother - or still so angry with her for the past - that you could create a negative situation out of something which could be positive." really rubbed me the wrong way.
You clearly were not listening to JustKathy nor giving her the grace to have her own voice and have it heard. She believes she does know and she has that right - especially here - to have her beliefs taken on their face value.
JustKathy - make sure you take care of yourself during these next months. Perhaps you can support your sister and father from a distance. Maybe send your sister a note or card just saying you are thinking of her. Maybe do the same with your father without mentioning your mother's illness as it will surely generate his well worn defense of her.
What ever you do. Trust your instinct. It has kept you alive so far.
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Thanks you all SO much for your very helpful replies. Yes, death does change everything, and there are so many questions swirling around in my head. Can I live with myself if I don’t make contact? Will it further damage me if I do? If I don’t make contact with her, yes, I WILL wonder what might have happened, though GaningStrengh is correct here. After 40 years of living with her games, I can say with 99% certainty that there’s no Disney ending coming.
Cathy, your sentence, “I need to let go of any fantasy of her suddenly becoming a caring mother in her dying days,” really hit home with me. I have had that fantasy all of my life, that one day she would be faced with her own mortality, and suddenly transform into a remorseful person who wants to make things right. It wasn’t until I started therapy and researched NPD, that I realized that my fantasy was just that, a fantasy. Ns don’t suddenly change, because they don’t feel that they’ve ever done anything wrong. Why should they change? They’re perfect. It’s the people around them who are expected to change.
My husband has asked me, if the situation were reversed, and I was the one who was dying, would M even acknowledge it? I can say with completely certainty that she would let me die without so much as a greeting card. In the last few years, I’ve have had a few health problems of my own, some serious. I’ve received get well cards from several members of my family, even distant relatives, but not a peep from my mother. Sometimes my father will send a card, obviously in his handwriting, and sign her name on it. That breaks my heart, that he wants so much for me to believe my mother cares, that he would send a fake card.
Cathy, like you, I do not expect her to reach out to me. The ball will be in my court, most definitely.
My father asked us to send her a card or email. We did send a card, again, really to please him (I won't send email, because she deletes and says I never sent anything). We also send him a really nice father’s day card. And yes, my sister will need support too. She has breast cancer, and underwent a double mastectomy last month, and is now going to have more dumped on her than she can handle.
BTW Cathy, welcome to the board. I’ve been visiting this place off and on for many years (a few years ago the board format changed, and my post count got re-set, so it now says “newbie”). I can’t tell you how much it has helped me to come here during difficult times, and read the other comments, and find comfort in knowing that I’m not alone. I've read stories about other poster's N parents, that mirror my own experiences to the letter. It's really remarkable how similar people with NPD are.
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Well GainingStrength - Who are you? I was responding to JustKathy who ASKED has anyone else gone through this, or is maybe going through it now? And my answer was YES. I didn't see YOU reflecting on similar experiences and offering different perspectives for her benefit. In fact, it seems to me that it's YOU who missed the point.
I was reflecting on death (my father's) and cancer/dying (mine) and an elderly N mother dying in a nursing home and, most particularly, a missing therapist. You couldn't get much closer to JustKathy's current dilemma. The missing therapist was probably what hooked me in to reply - plus the fact that nobody else had been in to reply and her request seemed urgent.
I don't know what beliefs you think I was denying. I didn't tell her to do anything and I didn't deny her experiences or her voice - or tried to put her down - but you've tried to deny me mine and shut me up and out. And then pretended to be 'more caring than thou' as if you're protecting her from me. "There, there Kathy, you look after yourself" Perlease. Clearly you have 'issues' about people needing protecting. But you've picked on the wrong person here. I did not deserve either that attack or the implications that I've been harmful or tired to be harmful.
Oh, hello, care home manager! Here we go again. Attack attack attack. For no good s***ing reason. Well, let's nip it in the bud. I'm not here for you to bully and misinterpret and be a scapegoat and a focus for your own issues. (Perhaps I'll use you for mine instead :wink:)
In fact...I have just the link for you. http://www.theshadoweffect.com/
I've got that buzzing in my head again. Your comment certainly came from left field and i didn't like the attack on my words one bit. At least try to be accurate in your accusations. CLEARLY (to quote you :roll:) you didn't read my comments carefully enough as there was nothing there to rub anyone up the wrong way. Not that I was talking to you anyway - I was talking to someone facing experiences similar to extremely painful and vulnerable ones I've already been through myself. This stimulated issues of my own - and I was honourable and considerate enough to take them elsewhere on the forum so as not to detract from justKathy's in this thread.
Buzz, buzz, buzz. Oh, and if anyone thinks I shouldn't respond to being attacked - that's what got me into my pickle in the first place!!! So my fingers are firmly in my ears la la la la la la la la. I double dare you to find a sense of humour. It could go either way.
from
Ms Indignant of Indianapolis (Well, England actually, but I can't think of an alliterative town beginning with I)
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Hi Kathy,
I don't have much advice. When my M's father was dying her and her sisters did round the clock care helping my GMther because my GF refused to be in the hospital. This was difficult for my M but she did helping sisters and her M. What she didn't expect was her F to ask for forgivness of how he treated her. She accepted who he was but was not ready to accept his apology nor did she feel it was truly for her. He was afraid on his death bed. After his death it was hell on earth for her for about 6 months and her feeling (not in detail) come rushing out. She was in great pain but pain I think she needed to feel because after that she was truly Free. It was different then before. It was different then the acceptance that he was a cruel man. The one thing she did was totally turn to herself. She needed to take care of herself and focus on herself. She had never done that before due to Children, family, work, ect. She took some time off went to her sisters and Felt, Did, Screamed, whatever she did with the help of my F who stayed at home with us (my sister and myself) who were older now and let my M just Fly with what she needed to Fly with.
I was shocked at first because I didn't understand What was Wrong with Mom. With assistance from my F I was able to grasp some things and when she dealt with her F her years, his death, when she was alright with it she was Free. I never heard her say one more time she did not like her F, hated her F, her F was a mean man (which I very rarely heard before) it was Done, Gone, Resolved and she was a peace till death did she part...
I do wonder if it still would have happened if he never said he was Sorry...I think it might have.
Now speakng to my Nfreinds mother who raised four children, father an N most likely, and one D (my friend )said to me last week
when her H died which she found him (heart attack) which I thought they got along great..was...her first feelings were I'm Free.
As I sat crynig my eyes out (about her D) and something that was very dfficult for me to do she had the Most compassionate look on her face, rubbed my back, and said...I have been through this many years ago. I gave up. I accepted what is and I am that much older now and feel free and think about all those years I have not done what I am doing with my life now. It's ok let her Go...you can't change her nor can anyone. You can love her like your sister as I love my D but let her go...Cry your eyes out. Forgive her from your heart set yourself free.
For my mother she had Deep Anger. For me I had Deep Anger. For my friends M she had deep sadness, loss of a family, and just went wtih the flow, gave up, operated in a dsyfunctional family for Years and I don't think any Anger just a Lost World....and all dealt with things differently with emotions, yet, all of us are Free of them now in whatever way we had to Do it. Some were in life and some carried through till death. For my friends M she is dealing and dealt with both...Life and Death.
There is no advice I can give only these stories. For each and everyone of us dealing with such people will be different. The difference that we will have in Life and where it goes will come from Us and waiting for them will never happen. I wanted my frined to change and ask for forgiveness from Atleast her Children (which she was so horrilbe to) it will never happen so I battled her like I was on a battle field trying to make her See what she is Doing and Stop it. I could not. So we found people who could. I have no anger, I have no regrets but I did feel lots of pain over WHY DIDN'T you just take care of THIS..Why did you let this go so FAR..WHY am I the ONE suffering...I forgave her and I forgave myself...and I'm free. I also realized that she has Suffered a Lifetime and will continue on and that is what makes her so very Mean, Entitled, Sneaky, and forever Empty although she will not appear that way to some people (she is a victim) forever who is constantly trying to victimize others in her Big Body with Child Like behavior of I'm not listening and Make Believe World An Angry Little Child who is always accusing and treating others as She felt in some way through out her life and till death do her part (as N). Now she can Punish others and Praise others which I do think all comes from inside her..As her own Child. JMO on this. This part is for you Kathy because it really is not personal against others although when you are a child of one I'm sure it is very personal how can it not be. You want a loving parents (equal). They are just sick and can't be any other then what they are although it appears they can be to Some for they are not really. No one treats another as they do and be normal. What I realized is that my friend has no Gray thinking it's all black and white as she applies it to People..your good..or your bad..anything inbetween for her does not exsist...One Golden child she has, the other Bad and the little one...just forgotten just there...exsisting... to the roles she has assigned to them in her Head and only her head for none of them are what she has assigned (in themselves) although sometimes we apply them that way for many years to over come what you were Told and have to re learn that someone programed you that way and sad but true one may be come N themselves. Inside though they are that fragile very damaged child as the siblings were but incapable of heal and finding true self it it even exisist anymore. In a family (I believe) all are victims even the N and that is how they become N. I just can't figure out how some do and some don't. The roles that Adult N assign to children, maybe?
This is where I was able to forgive and let go. Nothing I can do about it. I don't think there is anything anyone can do about it. I don't think I in my life time will ever see anything done. I have hope though someday that this can be reversed with (N) but for now the only reversed feelings I can have about this is from within me...Accept, Forgive, and Let it Go.
I did it backwards for a while. I let it go, I accepted (with anger) and never forgave for I went into battle with her.
Now I got it right...Acceptance, forgiveness and let it go....Free and still do love her...just very little contact..when she wants and needs it the most. I cannot help her not in my lifetime but I do need in my lifetime to let it go even if it feels shitty to turn down others that ask for my help (innocent people) I just can't and won't do it. That is the way it is for me. I can't live with this.
It's different for everyone. Do what you need to do/feel whats right for you. It does not mean you do not have compassion, love, thoughts, feelings for others. Others do not always understand and that is alright too to still say No.
In families everyone preceptions are different and in N families everyone is treated different. It's dsyfunctional and to Feel and Do what you need to do the others even Non N sometimes don't see or get it due to denial, or just, dfferent treatment.
This was your life as you lived it. This is your Feelings. This is your decision and only yours and if you choose to say No that is perfectly fine. This is your life as it is all others to Choose how you want to live it.
You can be supportive of your father with Love, Compassion, and do what you need to do For You. That is the hardest part when everyone see's/lived things different within the same family and you Love, Feel, have empthay, Compassion it's hard to have to leave them deal with themselves and thier own feelings when you simply cannot do what they Ask of you but something they have to deal with and sometimes want to just make it easier on them by Trading off yourself...sometimes you just can't. They don't get it and want to feel better as a Whole family which never was to Be...and still try. Sometimes is just to great and not even fair they ask it of you because they Don't Get It.
It's alright ....and you will cope with whatever decision you make which is your Right decision for you. All will have to cope with this now and each will be different in death as it was in life.
It's not easy. Thinking of you and yours.
with love
Deb
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Hi Kathy,
My N mother died in March. I lived with and took care of her for 10 years--her last 14 months were in a nursing home.
She never became someone new. She was too "ladylike" to be overtly hateful and was nowhere near as awful as your mother. Her Nism was manipulative and entitled, etc. -- but not rageful or overtly abusive. Her worst act was betraying me by leaving me legally entangled with a sociopathic brother who'd abused me in childhood, despite my explicitly begging her to not do that. And, she left a "surprise will" that has been very harmful.
I see I gave her a decade. I think too...she took it. With little thought to the consequences.
All that said, I did have one moment with her, because I continued to visit, that surprised and healed me. I told her one day in brief that my brother had attacked me and my daughter legally...and for that moment, when it sank in, she was truly distressed. In fact, it was the natural consequence of her taking advantage of and/or dismissing me and being deaf to my voice for all of those decades. But when she saw that real harm was being done to me, she was distressed. It was real.
And that was healing. It was love, and it was validating. It didn't fix the aftermath, but it has helped me make peace with her memory.
Your mother sounds toxic and stubborn and unlike someone who'd have a meaningful softening. But mysterious things happen.
What I imagine for you (different from advising it, don't think I can or should advise) -- but I imagine you going to see her once, for yourself, not for her. Just to be there and look at her, unafraid, and have a sort of meditative confrontation. For yourself. To stand, or sit, and simply be PRESENT with her, so you (for YOURSELF) can take in the reality of her being and her soon non-being. To face the reality of who she is, and also face the reality of her death.
In some way, there might be some freedom in it.
But if you think she would heap further abuse on you that you couldn't shield yourself from (such as by immediately saying calmly, It's time for me to go, goodbye mother--and then leaving) -- if you feel you'd be stuck in a theater scene saying dishonest things, and don't feel confident you could take that assertive action -- then what I imagine for you would not work.
Sorry it's a flipflop, but for what it's worth...
Hops
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Thanks so much Deb. You say you don't have any advice to offer, but in offering your stories, I was able to find advice. There was much there to think about and reflect on.
I was touched when you said this doesn't mean I don't feel love and compassion for others. Oddly, I grew up to be the total opposite of my N mom. I am extremely caring of everyone and everything that comes into my life. I pick up baby birds and nurse them to health. I'll talk to the bag lady sitting on the sidewalk who only wants a friend. Yet many of my family members see me as uncaring, because of the strain that has always existed between my mother and myself. True, others often do not understand, especially when the N parent is so clever at hiding their actions, and making themselves appear the victim.
I suppose this would be easier if I *weren't* a compassionate person. I could just say, "yeah, I'm finally free." My therapist has many patients who are children of Ns, and she tells me that most feel a sense of freedom when the N parent passes. I'll probably feel that at some point, like my first Christmas in decades where my gift isn't a nasty note telling me I'm scum. Time will tell.
Good news . . . my therapist just called and is back, and can see me first thing tomorrow morning. I think she's coming in early to make time for me. I told the receptionist that I had an illness in the family, and I'm sure she's pieced together that it's M, and that I need immediate help. I've managed to find a therapist with a lot of experience with NPD, so hopefully I'll have a better grip on things after talking to her.
Kathy
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Hops, our posts crossed, but thank you very much. Wise words about doing things for MYSELF.
Thank you.
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(((Kathy)))
I agree with your husband.
Your father doesn't understand the dynamics involved, in any case.
His distress certainly doesn't qualify him to assume the role of social coordinator.
He's going to be in a great deal of distress, no matter what you do, so......
take the best possible care of yourself.
If you think it might help.... write a letter to your Mother.
Read it.
Write it over again and repeat as necessary.
I always find it's a good way to clarify conflicted feelings.
You can choose to send it, save it, hand deliver it, burn it or lay it to rest beside your mother.
The important thing is taking care of yourself.
You'll probably suffer racing mind syndrome the next 6 months, but.....
it's my hope you'll manage some small buffer of serenity instead.
Mo2
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What makes visiting with your mother such a precarious concept to me is two-fold - the opportunity for your mother to dump her meanness on you yet one more time AND the horror of having your father pretend yet again that all would be different if ONLY YOU would play nice. I suspect HIS actions are even more damaging/hurtful because he could/should know better.
Visiting or communicating with your mother must feel like a one-two punch - your mother jabs you and your father/coach knocks your feet out from underneath you as you try to catch your balance after the jab.
My heart is with you. Protect yourself. They abandoned you long ago. You owe protection to yourself. All the family obligation is cr*p in a N FOO. It is a horrid tool of manipulation because it goes to the core of our base needs and instincts. Who amongst us does not long for "family" no matter what our age?
I am going back in age psychologically to "choose" to leave my family behind as a psychological teen. I should have done so when I was 14. Had any angel offered my the opportunity!
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"I suspect HIS actions are even more damaging/hurtful because he could/should no better."
Yes, I have had many discussions in therapy about my father. I want to feel badly for him, and I really want to see him as a victim, and I want to think that he did his best. But he didn't. Truth is, he was a willing accomplice. When I was in HS, and M made up wild stories about the school busting me with drugs, he believed her, and he inflicted the punishment (at her insistence). When he saw her beating on me emotionally, he told ME to go and work it out. He never stood up for me. EVER. Even when I left home, and was living in my car, he wouldn't help me because "Your mother says I can't." Come on. He couldn't have slipped me a $20 bill for some food? She never would have known about that. Yes, she had him him completely under her control, but he was a grown man. He could have done something. And even if he wasn't successful, he could have at least tried.
Mo, the idea of writing a letter is excellent. Even if never sent, it may be very therapeutic to write it.
GainingStrength, yes, you totally understand the risk of a visit. As long as M is still lucid, she WILL take one last opportunity to take a final swipe at me. I'll make the drive (to the next state), eat crow, walk in there, only to hear more nastiness. It would likely be something very well thought out, clever, that would go right over my father's head. And yes, if I don't shut up and take it from her, my father will be upset for me standing up to her, or potentially walking out on her (which I would do).
Thanks to both of you for reminding me that my father is not a poor innocent in all of this. He most definitely does not understand the dynamic involved. No matter what I do, he will always view me as the "bad apple" who never got along with mom. That will never ever change, despite my best efforts.
Kathy
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My therapist has gone on vacation, and I’ve got no one to turn to. Maybe some of you here can offer some words of wisdom, advice, or even meaningless chit chat.
Kathy
Hello JustKathy,
It's a tragic family story that you've posted. It's tragic that your mother is so sick, not leaving you with much time to sort anything out, if that is even possible at all. This must be a horrible pressure for you, & the rest of your family.
In reading your post I am leaning towards the possibility of your mother being extremely jealous of any of your fathers affections for you, possibly being a strong driver in the extremely destructive attitude your mother has dealt out to you. I am interested in what your thoughts are about that?
I believe that unbridled jealousy is a curse of the passionate & creative, & your mother sounds like a very creative & passionate woman, in the worst sense - unfortunately.
lizzie20
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Lizzie, it's really interesting that you picked up on that from what I posted. Yes, that HAS been suggested to me many times. When I was in high school, M seemed to have the most trouble with me having friends, guys who were interested in me, getting asked to dances, etc. She used to sabotage my dates, by telling me I could go out, then when the boy would arrive to pick me up, she would claim that I didn't have permission, throw a scene, the whole bit. At the time, one of my Aunts told me that M had been a problem child, very unpopular in school, with no friends. She told me, "she's jealous of you."
It's also possible that she was/is jealous of my father's affection for me, though I've never felt that I got any special attention from him. My younger brother is definitely the favorite child, the male heir, and all that. My brother was treated like royalty and my father paid for private schools, gave him a huge allowance, bought him cars, college tuition and free rent, the whole ball of wax, but he was acting on my mother's instructions.
Later in life, several therapists also said that M appeared to be jealous. She has never set foot inside any of my homes, because I've had larger/nicer houses than she did, and I "didn't deserve them." She didn't take it well when I was promoted to a management position some years back. I gave her one of my business cards, and she joked at the title (director of advertising), and said they were trying to make a stupid art job sound important. After that she started pretending that I was a housewife, and wouldn't acknowledge that I had a career. Throughout my entire life, she's become very angry whenever I've gotten something that she never had, anything from a promotion to a pretty haircut. Some things just very, very petty, but the jealously is definitely there.
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I wanted to say thank you to everyone who replied to my post. I can’t tell you how much it means to me to talk to other people who “get it.” My emotions were bouncing off the walls, and your words and advice really helped me to put a lot of things in perspective and get me stabilized. (Human comfort works much better than Xanax).
I finally got to see my therapist today. It helped a lot, though I’m not totally agreeing with everything she said. She feels that I should visit M for my father’s benefit, and to do whatever it takes to help him through it. My feeling (at least right now) is that I can help him somewhat, but there are definite limits to what I can and can’t do.
There was one thing she did say that I found interesting, and worth passing on. My father commented that M has been unusually upbeat for someone who has just received a terminal prognosis. My therapist said that Ns often ignore a terminal prognosis, and don’t feel that they’ll actually die. They believe they can manipulate death, the same way they manipulated everything else in life. She said she has had several patients who lost N parents, and that even in the final stages of illness, the parent did not believe they would really die. After all, they ALWAYS got their way in life through manipulation . . . they can manipulate their way out of this one too.
I’m not sure if others on this board have experienced that, but I found it interesting (and knowing Ns, quite believable).
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Hi JustKathy,
I can see serious merit in what your therapist has suggested for quite a few reasons. I refer to the suggestion for you to see or communicate with your mother.
'Strategy' is often overlooked as a life tool by those of us who have been subjected to control & manipulation - too much & for too long.
We often confuse or fear taking control of our circumstances or developing effective strategies. It can seem to us that we too are using control and manipulation, when in fact it depends very much on our agenda. If we are acting in our own best interests & doing it to maintain our own firm, healthy boundaries then it benefits everybody involved.
Strategically, I see supporting your father by communicating with your mother at this very difficult time as a good idea for the future. Especially for your future relationship with him & the rest of your family after she has passed over, & taking into consideration the power-vacuum which undoubtedly will emerge once she's gone. Who will fill this gap?
I doubt it will be your father. He's made a life of accomodating to other people's power. I agree that he could have slipped you a twenty & she need never have known. Your sister coped by hiding her own personality from your mother, & in turn the world, it seems. It looks that your brother was able to use & even develop his charm to not only survive, but do well with your mother.
If having closer or better relations with the rest of your family after you mother goes is important to you, then head & heart have to align to develop a strategy so that you achieve the outcome you want. Otherwise you might just play right into her hands one last time & permanently toxify your future relations with your father & your other family members.
Is it possible to work 'with' your father on this, thereby establishing your own position of supporting him (regardless of the actual outcome with her at the time of communicating)?
Is it possible that you could enlist his support, considering he seems to want & need your support, & he also seems to want & need you to communicate with her?
Is it possible for you to talk openly with him and discuss with him that you want to support him, & would like to do what he wants & needs, but you need his help & support in return.
Is it possible that you could agree with him to talk her, but for only an agreed time limit?
Is it possible that you could also suggest topic restrictions?
Regardless of what boundaries you eventually decided to put in place it would surely show your good faith to all concerned. Also it could establish your genuine position of being a supporter of him at such a critical time in his life (and even hers).
It's easy to catastrophize outcomes. But would it necessarily be a bad one...eventually? It may eventually assist in some real & healthy closure for you. It may also disable that possible future demon called 'self-recrimination', and the dreaded 'if only' monster that likes to punish us for our choices or inaction. It may also act as the beginnings of a healing balm for you with the rest of your family.
Thinking about your father, at what may very well be the saddest time in life, I can understand him seeking support from all of his children. He is facing a dreaded reality. He is soon to lose his life partner. To him she is wife, supporter, the mother of his children & the person he seems to have leaned very heavily on for guidance, albeit misguided in relation to you. He must be feeling vulnerable & devastated. How important it is to him to see you communicate with her is one consideration that feeds into another consideration. How important is it to you to try to have a decent future relationship with him? The answer to that question seems quite vital in determining which way you go, and what strategy you develop.
If that consideration is of a high priority to you then is it possisble that you could strategize with your therapist, and then perhaps your father, to achieve an outcome which you don't believe violates your boundaries, self-respect or vital 'self'? Inaction, too, is a strategy with real outcomes.
My thoughts are with you JustKathy at this very difficult time,
Lizzie20
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Wow, Lizzie.
That was a very savvy and smart way to look at it, imo.
I sure could use a life coach, you free? :)
Hops
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lizzie:
I really enjoyed your post.
How refreshing to think about strategy and what we want to accomplish...
not focus on the negative aspects of a situation we can't control.
That makes complete sense to me.
It seems Kathy has to choose between self protection....
and the chance her father will stop being such a putz.
Mo2
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Dear(( Kathy ))) I am just reading your thread. Boy, I needed a few soul sisters,tonight. I was feeling alone and like the whole world had good mothers but me.
I wrote to Alice Miller. She published the letter about my M's abuse with a wonderful note to me. She said I could heal IF I could face the truth . I needed to see JUST how horrible my M . The degree to which I could would be the degree to which I could heal.
Alice Miller brings wisdom and insight on how to heal from our type of M's.
They made us feel as if we were the bad ones and we hated ourselves. The tables have to turn completely. This is very hard b/c then you see you are motherless. I am in the process,but not done with it.
It is awful, so painful.
Love to you, Kathy and everyone whose NM hurt them . Ami
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Wow, Lizzie, that was quite a post indeed. There is a LOT there for me to think about. I will definitely read it several times over to be sure that I've absorbed it all.
I AM trying to consider my future with the family. I will have a few years now to reconnect with some family members (some elderly Aunts and Uncles) who I have been kept away from for years due to M’s manipulations. I wasn't expecting to have that opportunity.
It’s pretty much impossible for me to have an adult conversation with my father. His coping mechanism has been to behave like Dustin Hoffman in Rain Man. You try to start a serious conversation, and he’ll interrupt with “I get my coffee at Kmart.” If I didn’t know better I’d say he was “simple,” but he’s not. He held down a high-paying job as a videotape editor for one of the big three networks, and even won an Emmy. He knows what’s up. He just doesn’t know how to cope with anything. When something serious comes up . . . “bla bla bla bla Kmart is good.” It’s like dealing with a child.
So I can work with him, but in a limited capacity. There won’t be any serious discussions because he isn’t capable. What I can do is help with simple requests, like his asking me to send M a card, which hubby and I did do.
Dad called today and thanked us profusely for sending the card. Went on and on about how much it meant to M, how it lifted her spirits to hear from her daughter, how happy it made her, how much she loved it, yada yada. Yet M wouldn’t come to the phone to thank me herself. He had to thank me on her behalf.
What I got out of that call was not that M was happy to have received the card (she probably set fire to it as soon as he left the room), but that HE was happy we sent it. So for now, if I can keep him happy with small gestures that don’t hurt me, I’m okay there. We’ll just have to see what happens in the future.
There’s another issue that he has to contend with, and that's the N that my brother married, who my father referred to today as “the witch.” That really threw me, as he's not one to badmouth ANYBODY. So my guess is N SIL is probably already starting to make her move, finding ways to get her hands on M’s personal effects, etc. So my father is going to have to decide how to deal with her as well. M created this situation by giving SIL a free pass to mistreat everyone in the family, something she did to make my brother (the golden child) happy. That’s one he is going to have to deal with on his own. SIL is dangerous, has threatened and stalked me online, so I’m not stepping into that one, for my own safety. My father has a real mess on his hands, but there’s only so much I can do.
I honestly have NO idea what direction things will take, what will happen to the family dynamic, and so on. I think I’m going to have to take this day by day.
Ami, thank you for your kind words as well. I’m not familiar with Alice Miller, but will google her. And hugs back at ya. You are most certainly NOT the only one who drew a short straw when it came to mothers.
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Hello JustKathy,
Just one more post to your topic.
It’s pretty much impossible for me to have an adult conversation with my father. His coping mechanism has been to behave like Dustin Hoffman in Rain Man. You try to start a serious conversation, and he’ll interrupt with “I get my coffee at Kmart.” If I didn’t know better I’d say he was “simple,” but he’s not. He held down a high-paying job as a videotape editor for one of the big three networks, and even won an Emmy. He knows what’s up. He just doesn’t know how to cope with anything. When something serious comes up . . . “bla bla bla bla Kmart is good.” It’s like dealing with a child.
So I can work with him, but in a limited capacity. There won’t be any serious discussions because he isn’t capable. What I can do is help with simple requests, like his asking me to send M a card, which hubby and I did do.
I wonder if your father has used 'voicelessness' as an avoidance technique for so long, and especially in relating to your mother, that now it has taken on a life of its own & become an ingrained habit?
I can see much merit in your strategy of "I'm going to have take this day by day". Ultimately, it's probably all any of us can do.
Wishing you success,
Lizzie20
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Dear Kathy
Just re-read your post about your therapist. One danger of therapy,IME,is when we take the therapists opinion above our own gut .I could hear you struggling with this.
For me, being voiceless meant pushing away my gut reality. Alice Miller says that if we honor our guts ,we will heal. I have been trying to do this.It is opposite to honoring authority(parents, therapists, society etc) over ourselves.
My F is like yours. He was a successful businessman but mute with my NM. Sometimes, he would stand up for himself but never for us.
Keep your chin up. You are doing great with a very hard situation. Love and Hugs, Ami
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Ami, you are SO right about therapy. My therapist can offer great advice, but sometimes it DOES conflict with my gut instincts. One side of me wants to believe that the therapist is a trained professional (authority figure) who knows what is best, but in my heart I know that's not entirely true. She hasn't been walking in my shoes for the past 40 years. Her advice may be good, but not necessarily the best advice for ME.
So yes, I am feeling conflicted here and trying to tell myself that I have to do what I know is best for me. I'm the one who will have live with my decisions for the rest of my life. I really appreciate your post. It makes the struggle much easier for me when I hear another person say, "follow your gut."
Kathy :)
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Dear Kathy,
I am in a similar position about trusting my gut. It is heartwrenching b/c I have so much fear and lack of trust in myself. Alice Miller says to take small steps in trusting your gut and it will snowball until one day you are emotionally healthy. I sure hope so! Love to you, Ami