Voicelessness and Emotional Survival Message Board
Voicelessness and Emotional Survival => Voicelessness and Emotional Survival Message Board => Topic started by: Hopalong on July 20, 2009, 11:03:50 PM
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I loaned my D a few thousand in recent months that cost me severely, but she promised to deposit it when her financial aid came through. In the last few days I asked her to confirm that she would do it today and she replied, You bet, and I'll email you when it's done. I had been extremely clear that it was extremely important to me, particularly because my account is very low and I'm being evaluated for a mortgage.
She didn't do it. And didn't even contact me with an explanation. Nothing.
I'm beyond hurt and disappointed. And very angry. Left her a quite bitter voice mail about realizing I've made some serious mistakes and that her own life will not work if she makes repeated promises to the people who care about her most and those promises mean absolutely nothing.
I am crushed and furious and feeling very guilty that I have raised a charming but narcissistic, self-absorbed young adult who will literally lie. Repeatedly. I know she has a terror of disappointing "authority figures" and so gets herself in situations repeatedly by saying what people want to hear and then fleeing from the responsibility...
...and I must have been so enmeshing or doting that I brought this about.
Whatever the causes, even if it's all on me, it has to stop. I will not lend her another cent. And right now, if she asked to move home (not that she will), I believe I would say no.
I have no trust in her. I love her very much but I just have no trust. And that is devastating.
I will stop enabling. That is the one thing I CAN do. But oh what a sad lonely time I'm in for.
Hops
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Hi Hops,
So sorry to hear of your daughter's behaviour. I can empathise with your feelings as I found what you wrote very familiar with regard to my son. He also promises everything and follows through on practicaly nothing. I know he sees me as an authority figure also. I have had so many disappointments around him that a part of me has just given up on him. I have gone through the pain, hurt, shame, etc and now realise that he is how he is, for all sorts of reasons. He makes his choices and everytime I engage with him and have an expectation I will be hurt.... keeping an emotional distance has become very important for me otherwise I give up my energy to trying to make sense of his very hurtful behaviour. For me the main learning has been each time I bang my head off the wall IT HURTS...it has been a long painful journey to figure this out and I guess loving him at a distance is the only safe place for me. Don't know if this helps in any way other than saying I understand how hurtful it is to feel so disrespected by one's child.
Much love,
axa
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(((((((((((HOPS)))))))))))
I hope that there is some other explanation for this lack of deposit, later on, that comes to light. Perhaps there's been some delay between banks or the posting of the deposit... or in releasing the financial aid. I'd believe the latter to be a good possibility... some schools even try to have students bring the FA back, because of outstanding fees or errors. Though you can imagine how difficult that is, in today's reality.
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Oh Hops,
I am sorry. Again we are in the same boat! Did we spoil our daughters, or/and just make them Narcissistic? I think mine has to do with no father, a man she idolized and never knew. I forget. Did yours know/love her Dad a lot? Ever get the feeling that she thought a lot about him and it was your fault that he wasn’t around? both Only Children?
I sensed that in my D and she admitted it in some previous correspondence. She doesn’t know for a fact that I have gone NC in my mind. I just haven’t written, as I have nothing to say except my process of recovery, and I doubt it matters when it isn’t inconveniencing her. She has still not sent the picture that she promised.. That might appear to be small, but it was a promise. I feel at times, and know at times, that she lies.
Back when her father died, she was crying and saying she had planned to go see him that summer. She was 15 and has said nothing to me.(She would have gone to see a father who was drunk all the time, living with a woman who also was drunk all the time.) I believe that to have been made up on the spur of the moment--why? not having seen him for 7 years, except now at his funeral? Was I to feel bad?
This spring after I was hit with the car, she said she had planned to come out to visit me, but with her ‘broken back’ and now me incapacitated, she had to cancel those thoughts. Déjà vu. Why? She never mentioned a thing about it!
I know things went bad for her after she married an N, but it also affected my life and now she has ‘lost’ her two sons to him, her daughter is 20 (the age D was when she married the N) There is something in there that I thought I was missing, but can only think of her, now, as being N.
There doesn’t appear to be much concern about me.
Now your D has pulled this serious blow to your finances and is not concerned about you? Is she aware what a hardship it was for you, in the midst of all, to send her the money to see her through? and now you need it? Then by blasting her, she will have more ammunition against you?
I decided to never give my D any more ammunition, by ‘begging to have that picture’ and truthfully, even for posting here, my life has been so confined for the last 4 months , there isn’t anything happening, worth talking about. I keep a journal re the lawyer and is it ever boring!
Again, I’m sorry about this, Hops, and can relate
Mine is 45 and ought to know better and is working and self-sufficient, but….after I lost her in 1991, she said that would never happen with her children and her.
Is there something about us, having dealt with Ns, that makes us targets again?
I hope she repays you soon.
Love
Iz
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thanks, everybody.
I talked about it with my counselor this morning and he thinks I need to let my anger drain (it's pretty much over) and then ask her to try to figure out WHY she does this pattern, as well as when she's going to make it right. That's all I can do (that, and new boundaries--including of course, no more Bank of Mom). I wrote a draft email for her and sent it to him first.
Axa, I'm sorry. It is really the most painful thing. As I told my counselor, much much more than the money, it's the character stuff that grieves me most. But...we can move forward. He drew the Karpman triangle and I saw how many ways D and I fall into that...and he reminded me about the alternate choice: "AA", or Assertive Adult.
PR--you may be right there was a problem with the financial aid. But that doesn't excuse her from not communicating responsibly and letting me know.
Izzy--I hear you. I can understand why you don't make yourself vulnerable any more. I'm not ready for NC -- don't want that. But I can understand how parents get hurt so much they can go there.
I still have hope. And I'll need a lot more patience. He said it's common for people in their late 20s and 30s to suddenly shove away harder than ever, or to come up with so much anger and blame of their parents.
I want to weather it, and hope we can.
love,
Hops
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S'OK, Hops... I do understand. My girls are in their early 30s and we seldom communicate on a regular basis.... unless they need "the Bank of Mom". Had to laugh... that's what we call it too. But it's a very touchy subject.
I guess I still struggle with "letting them go"... letting them be who they are and then just dealing with that. And with how far away is TOO far. At their age, they need to be defining those kinds of behaviors for themselves, I guess - no "mommy lectures" about how to do things; how to be. And they may have to learn the hard way - with other people/situations... and also that Mom's expectations are still Mom's expectations... though those may have changed. In my case, I know they have.
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Hello Hopalong,
Tell her she's grounded for one whole month.
It's irritating when people we rely on turn delinquent, but it's a very real part of life.
I've had this exact thing happen to me a few times in the past, & as a result I've put an effective system in place so that I've disbaled this type of abuse happening to me ever again.
I've informed my 'delinqent debtor' family members or friends who've done this type of thing that their credit rating has been seriously affected by their non-payment, & that in future if I deem it appropriate to lend them money I will take security in return.
You see, I'm very serious about my generosity and who I allow as a recipient.
I've taken a notebook computer, an ipod, a collectible signed basketball, and at one time both sets of cars keys & their car which remained parked in my car space for 3 weeks, when it was only supposed to be for 1 week. I'm fairly certain in that situation I never would have seen the money, and it was a few thousand.
I will only go to these lengths with certain people. Those who have broken trust with me in relation to repayment of funds historically, and timing of repayment of funds. I may still love them and wish to help if I can, but only on my own terms. Quite simply, I refuse to be a beggar at the gate, running myself ragged, chasing my own money.
Lizzie20
PS, I don't charge interest.........yet.
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My counselor AND all of you advised me so well today.
He suggested I write just a 2-liner letting her know I regretted the bitterness in my voicemail last night but that I still need the deposit. (And he looked over a longer one I wrote her and helped me tone down the edge.)
So I did.
And she replied. Lots of excuses about phone problems, etc. but she said she'd transferred it to her checking but it hadn't posted yet so she couldn't do it yet. I am believing her.
She is NOT off the hook for ignoring it and not communicating but I am relieved that she finally has, and also that she was affectionate.
That, of course, is my vulnerability. And I need to use this episode within myself to stiffen up my boundaries and my resolve to NOT BAIL HER OUT ANY MORE.
Her ignoring this deadline, and no explanation until I practically had a meltdown, was the last straw. It was just TOO inconsiderate, whether or not it was as wickedly narcissistic as I painted it.
I need to reflect a lot on my way of relating to her. THAT'S what I can change.
I love her, I do want her in my life, but I no longer want to set myself up (as Izzy said) to expect reliability. Maybe it's still to come...she is relatively young and neither I nor the culture helped her know how to grow up mature.
And, I should also remember that I get all the resistance and so forth, because I'm the parent alive to get it. She has no father...and she does tend to go off the rails this time of year (the anniversary of his death).
Anyway, I do forgive. But I hope for my own sake that I do not forget.
love to all of you,
Hops
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I am thinking about you Hops. My heart aches for the disappointment you experienced in this. I may have some thoughts to add but I want to percolate before I write. The longing and desire and need to have a trustworthy, dependable relationship with your daughter (family) is so vital - so basic and yet so struggling.
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Another day with no deposit and no explanation...
Distressing. I'm not hysterical about it, but disturbed that she seems to feel nothing about obligation or ... well, what's right.
Generation gap or not, this isn't right.
And I feel sad. But...so it is.
love,
Hops
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Ah, Hops
I'm so sorry.
Distressing, disturbing, indifferent? unconcerned? selfish is what I'm calling mine.
--but I feel more at peace since I decided to never again "beg" for one iota of attention from her. Her closest freind had TWO abusive parents and I think has a "hold' over D in analyzing words and actions, to the detriment of me.
Hang in there.
Love
Izzy
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Thanks, Izz.
I am devastated but trying hard to assert myself (inside myself, she doesn't care) -- to tell myself, NO MORE.
It is heartbreaking.
I feel her indifference.
Either she's so much more callous and selfish than I had been willing to face...OR, she's in some terrible trouble I can't even fathom.
I just can't put it together. It makes so much of our recent history of constant calls and contact and closeness -- all during her terribly stressful crises and recent move -- seem meaningless.
Or fake.
I do feel one anchor has been removed from my life.
This is beyond indifference...to not even explain...
:(
Hops
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OK - could it be possible that she is overwhemed and embarrassed and not able to communicate b/c she is such a s**t? And it that is so would it help the mother??????
I'm hurting for you - just hoping that it takes some of the pain and burden from you. Truly hoping and praying for a relief and release.
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GS, bless you...I believe you are right.
I woke up at 4 a.m. grinding my teeth until my jaw ached, called her and just cried into her voicemail...told her I NEED it, that I am being evaluated RIGHT NOW for a mortgage and will be getting overdrafts, and don't have another resource for the money to bring my balance back up...I just cried all over the phone.
She called me back immediately.
Said it truly was unavailable to withdraw until today; she has been checking. And this morning at 9:00 she is going to take care of it. I told her she should have called me, and she made excuses...
...But I think you're right, GS, she is ashamed. And I guess, in a way, that's a better answer.
I also told her that I had gone too far in bailing her out this time, as in doing so I had really jeopardized myself.
I wonder if it was, in some degree, unreasonable for me to expect her to suddenly THIS time take the idea of a loan from Mom more seriously...because the truth is, I have bailed her out so many times and NOT insisted on repayment. This is the first time I have been so financially depleted that it was truly critical to me that I get it back.
I was very clear about it, as was she.... But, that's the end of that side of things.
I am so glad she responded, but I am not glad that it took such stress and anguish to get through to her.
No. I talked to myself tonight, saying NO, brother! NO, boss! and NO, Daughter!
Stomped around the house for a while setting that boundary aloud, and that felt good.
I will not stay angry (literally, my teeth hurt from grinding) -- it poisons me -- but I will be an assertive adult.
I guess it's okay I cried. That was the hurt beneath the anger and I don't care that she saw it. To try to be a detached, all-rational parent about this wasn't where I am...so I cried.
I heard some kind of regret. Self-absorbed or not, I do think she loves me. As much as she is able.
love,
Hops
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Awww... Hops....
It will be OK and I think you'll be able to come to a new understanding with D - talk it through - after the deposit is made and crisis averted. There just isn't any rule book about being a mom of a young adult in today's world... there is no "normal" anymore... and what with our wanting them to be independent and have their own life - learning from experience; and the way the deck is stacked against the young financially and trying to help.... it's easy to transgress our own rules/decisions/boundaries about this.
It's impossible to know ahead of time whether our decision to help is "right" or not. I argue with myself all the time over this very same issue... am I enabling? am I sending a message that I don't have confidence her ability to support herself? does she need the cash desperately but is too ashamed, embarrassed or proud to let me know????? I hate like hell to hear that my D has moved up from living on peanut-butter & jelly to soup... (with vegetables). So I offer, even when she doesn't need help... or when she's going to her friends for help, instead of me, like this last time. And I've been known to just send her some cash - for no specific reason except to ease my own worry.
And to our D's... I guess we're always going to be the "mom" in their minds... from childhood. As they struggle to stand on their own two feet, and not need our approval to feel "whole"... toes get stepped on, feelings hurt, nothing seems comfortable about the relationship. I know I don't always get things right or communicate well... I rely on the "old" patterns of communication between us too much. And I keep promising to go hang out with my D... to spend time getting to know the new D, who IS making it by the skin of her teeth in this economy... and figure out who we are again, now. I just haven't done it yet.... and I kick myself for this too, ya know? Sometimes I feel there's too much space in our relationship right now. And I know it's sort of necessary for both Ds...
I'm learning to accept that I unwittingly wasn't the best mom - in my eyes - (even though I tried to be) thanks to all the buried FOO crap that manifested in my life - and controlled me. They deny this self-judgement of myself, to my face... but I see them struggling with some of the same issues of boundaries that I did, too. Thankfully - we can talk about this - and that may be the most important thing, anyway. We're trying and it is what it is; that's not all bad.
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Amber,
Thanks for such understanding and especially the perspective -- you do know the territory. And your kindness.
It really helps that you know this turf a bit, I'm glad somebody else does the Pushme-Pullyu (one of my favorite books as a kid...Dr. Doolittle).
It's comforting.
And you help me feel a little less self-lacerative (dibs on the word patent! :)) about it all.
I think I do a kind of downward spiral when I think of my D too clinicially. When I spot her narcissistic traits (or my own), I completely panic. I don't have enough perspective on it to see it in the moment in the cultural context of what you described, but this was terribly kind -- I agree-- and relieved a lot of my pain:
There just isn't any rule book about being a mom of a young adult in today's world... there is no "normal" anymore... and what with our wanting them to be independent and have their own life - learning from experience; and the way the deck is stacked against the young financially and trying to help.... it's easy to transgress our own rules/decisions/boundaries about this.
I may be deluded but I did hear a shade of pain/regret in her voice. She was definitely wanting to comfort and reassure me. So...once she takes care of it today, then I'll feel okay again.
If she doesn't, lord help us.
xo
Hops
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LOL!! You can have the copyright on that word... I like it!
I should've known the toll my girls would take on me: my hair started turning gray when I was 17... I didn't even conceive the first one, till I was 18. I tease them about being the reason I'm all white at 53. But they HAVE put me through the ringer - both of them - several times. At least they kept their promise to not make me a grandma before I was 40.
But ya know, I still am not the image of what I think of as a grandma. My hubby's daughter's son Logan just turned 1... and I'm only now just beginning to feel like MIGHT be able to be "grandma-like"... someday. All those roles seem to be getting "boomer-fied", if I might coin something new. And just like the way we parented, there's no cookie-cutter pattern for this stage of life - or roles - either. Maybe there's something to be said for the certainty that comes with stereotypes... well-defined roles... societally imposed "norms"... re-creating the wheel - consciously choosing how/who to be - all the time is exhausting!
My secret life-plan was to get the girls raised, settled into their lives... and still be young enough that I could kick up my heels and dare (and be physically able) to do all the wild, crazy, hedonistic things that I wanted to do while I had two in diapers at the same time, as a single mom. I still don't know if I'm going to be able to do that yet... and I'm still not sure the girls are settled to my satisfaction. Do I get a say??
And no, "we" don't feel the same... the relationship isn't anywhere near like it was at the start of their journey out into the world. This, I'm sure, is a good thing and I'm the only one who's unsure; uneasy with it. They set boundaries on my mother-henning them - as they should. I don't pry into their private lives; don't even really want to know all the "gory details". But finding a new happy medium of being together... sigh... that takes time together. And that's difficult when they're working all the time - D#2 has two jobs to make ends meet - and can't really take time off without taking a financial hit. And I want to find a new happy medium... so that we don't become strangers to each other.
Another creative pursuit, I think... I'll need to put my thinkin' cap on.
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She didn't. Silence. No deposit.
And no reply to my calm, gentle, pleas for an explanation or communication.
I know she must feel trapped and ashamed, among other things...
I feel so sad.
I feel I've failed her. I didn't teach some very basic things, that she is so unable to communicate in an honest, healthy way.
I'm trying not to drown in guilt (the sorrow's quite high enough a tide).
Agnostic or not, I'm praying over and over: Please help my D.
(The money's very secondary...I am afraid for her character development, her future relationships.)
If you believe...please pray for her. She is ALSO a good person, a loveable person, an animal nut...someone who cares about justice...(I know, the irony). I love her so much and I can't help her with this.
:(
Hops
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I shall pray for your daughter, and you too, dear Hops.
Love,
Leah
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Hops...
try to breathe. Distract yourself...
waiting for something truly important can be obsessively overwhelming. (Don't I know it... sigh)
I think she WOULD if she COULD... and she may be quite busy trying to... which would explain the lack of communication.
Just don't "pile on" more stuff to the situation by trying to suss it all out, about what's going on. Snafus tend to increase in situations that we feel are desperately important... or at least, they appear to be snafus. Don't know why... but it's been my experience that they do. You've done everything you can... now release the outcome, kindly... and take care of yourself.
Breathe. Trust. There will be time later to dissect what happened - and how it could've been avoided or happened better.
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Thank you, thank you.
I am working to let it go and send love but not desperation.
I am not happy with how desperately I fear the loss of her love.
It DOES feel better in the moments when I send kindness. You are exactly totally right.
There's a...gentleness...to allowing myself to feel love and concern rather than fear.
It's being gentle with myself, and gentle with her (even in her absence, her withdrawal).
I don't think not calling me or emailing me is explained by her being "busy" looking for an answer, though. I think it's just an iron door coming down in her, that shuts me out (because the question I pose with my vulnerability and my shock and anger is a question she is likely afraid to answer).
Thank you so much for identifying the two pieces (I've been working my way toward both these meanings today, and hearing you say this is validating to a great degree--I have so much respect for you, Amber).
1) Release
2) Kindness
Those are truly the only tools I have...and one other:
3) Self care (tough one, but I'm working at it).
Thank you again (and you too, sincerely, Leah...I find this embarrassing to say--which is about my own loss--but in an odd way when I am in a lot of emotional pain, I find myself saying to myself: I wish I still believed in God).
I don't know what to think of this, but the truth is that I am very comforted by the idea that those WITH faith are offering a prayer for her, or for me. I don't have the faith myself, yet in a funny way, I have a little bit...else, why would it ease my heart some to know that?
Thank you. I know how sincere you are. And I really do want prayers (whether I deserve them or not is another question entirely. Yet, knowing who I am, you offer them anyway--this teaches me something I can't even articulate, but I am grateful).
love to you both,
Hops
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I am touched by your humility, Hops.
I talked with my Aunt last night. She has everything the world could offer .Her three kids are outstanding professionally as well as personally.
She is close to them and they are close to each other.
She absolutley cannot understand how I, a Jew, could believe in Jesus. She thinks I am ignorant. I know many people share this viewpoint of Born Again believers. I used to myself so I am not upset by it.
I was trying to tell her how I came to believe this way. It was pure and utter desperation. When I called out to God to find me ,I didn't care who He was as long as I could touch him.
Ami
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((((Hops))))
I'm so so sorry this is happening to you.
I'll pray for God to help your daughter help herself.
Mo2
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Thanks, Ami...
I don't know exactly how to explain it all, but the fact that I'm okay with it being an open question for me must be exactly the reason I'm agnostic...
I do appreciate your prayers. I'm not sure what they are or what they mean but I feel blessed by them.
M02--thank you.
You really are the M02 ... and I know your own girls will weather any storms and sail on safely.
Hops
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Yes, I understand,Hops.
I was an agnostic for many years. Ami
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Hi all.
I am tormented with fears of permanent estrangement.
She is all I have. No husband, no siblings (brother can't count), no parents, no other children.
So when she goes cold and silent with me, I'm devastated. It feels so punitive...I know she can go there. Her Dad would too.
I am walking around this week feeling a broken heart.
I ask, how is it that I turned into the offender?
I gave and helped and paid and gave, then loaned $2K with clear understanding which she agreed to absolutely clearly, and she promised, and broke her word, and yet...I am being punished.
It haunts me that I know there are people (plenty right here) who are completely estranged from a parent. What if my own D goes NC with me?
If she does, I'll tell you right now...I don't deserve it. Warts and neediness and all my weaknesses and mistakes do NOT add up to deserving shunning.
I also don't think I could live with it.
love,
Hops
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Hops....
please don't torment youself about a possibility that may never happen.
Take deep breaths.......
keep your head where your feet are.
I'm still praying she pays the money back and you both learn something from this.
M02
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Thanks, M02--
I really don't care about the money any more. (I'll not loan again though.) It's really secondary.
It's just the great hurt, and a profound fear of losing our relationship entirely.
Sure looks like she'll go there.
((((((M02))))) thank you,
Hops
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Oh Hops.....
I don't want to believe your d would end your relationship over a 2K loan.
I really don't.
She'll miss you and she'll be in contact again.
You're her mama ((Hops))
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In the not too distant future, my bet is on her NEEDING her mama, Hops...
even if it's just to work through the situation that is probably tormenting her...
as much as you are tormented.
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This article wound up referencing marriage at the end, but I had a lot to learn from it.
I wonder why the author did not include family relationships, do y'all think it's inappropriate to apply this kind of thinking?
http://www.enotalone.com/article/2285.html (http://www.enotalone.com/article/2285.html)
A safe relationship space exists when two or more people intend to learn and are willing to take full personal responsibility for their own feelings, while accepting that their energy and behavior affects others. When both individuals fully accept that they are a part of an energy system, i.e., they recognize that each person's energy affects the other, and they are willing to take responsibility both for their own controlling behavior and for their responses to the controlling behavior of others, they create a safe relationship space. Such a space is a circle of loving energy that results from each person's deep desire to learn what is most loving to themselves and others. To create a safe relationship space, all persons involved need to be deeply committed to learning about their own controlling behavior, rather than focusing on what another is doing. Rather than giving themselves up to avoid rejection or attempting to get others to give themselves up to feel safe, each person is devoted to their own and the other's highest good, supporting themselves and each other in becoming all they can be.
Many of us have spent a great deal of time in unsafe relationship spaces. In fact, some of us have never experienced a safe relationship space because many, if not most, of us have not learned to create a safe inner space by staying in a loving Adult frame of mind when our fears are activated. When our fears of being rejected, abandoned, engulfed and controlled are triggered, most of us immediately retreat into our learned controlling behaviors. We may move our focus into our minds to avoid our feelings; we may attack, blame, defend, demand, explain, deny, judge, criticize, shut down, withdraw, resist, give in and comply, placate, lie, become overly nice, and so on. Of course, the moment we act out in controlling ways, our behavior may trigger another's fears of being rejected or controlled, and that person may then react in controlling ways as well, creating a vicious circle and an unsafe relationship space.
If, when these fears are activated, we focus on who is at fault or who started it, we perpetuate an unsafe relationship space. Blaming another for our fears (and for our own reactive, unloving behavior) makes the relationship space more unsafe than ever. Then both people in the relationship end up feeling bad, each of us believing that our pain is the result of the other person's behavior. We feel victimized, helpless, stuck, and disconnected from our partner. We desperately want the other person to see what they are doing that (we think) is causing our pain. We think that if the other person only understands this, they will change--and we exhaust ourselves trying to figure out how to make them understand.
Over time, being in an unsafe relationship space creates distance between the people involved. When we have not created a safe space in which to speak our complete, heartfelt truth about ourselves, the joy between us gradually dies. And the more we hold back our innermost feelings and experiences, the shallower our connection becomes. Our intimacy crumbles.
In friendships, marriages, and work relationships, our joy, electricity, and creativity get lost as we each give up parts of ourselves in an attempt to feel safe. In romantic relationships, passion dries up. Superficiality, boredom, fighting, and apathy take its place. We try valiantly to figure out what went wrong. But too often we ask, "What am I doing wrong?" or "What are you doing wrong?" rather than inquiring into the health of the relationship space itself.
Only when we look at the relationship space will we see what we are each doing to create the unsafe space. The dual fears of losing the other through rejection and losing ourselves through being swallowed up by the other are the underlying cause of our unloving, reactive behavior. These fears are deeply rooted. They cannot be healed or overcome by getting someone else's love. On the contrary, we must heal these fears before we can share love--give and receive love--with each other.
The key to doing this is learning how to create a safe inner space where we can work with and overcome our fears of rejection and engulfment. This is a process, not an event. Practicing the process of Inner Bonding gradually creates inner safety as we learn to take personal responsibility for our own feelings and behavior. Inner Bonding guides us in defining ourselves internally through the eyes of our personal spiritual guidance, instead of externally through performance, looks, and others' approval. In addition, it provides us with a clear process for conflict resolution that can be used in any relationship difficulty. Instead of love eroding with time, love deepens daily, supporting each person in the sacred journey of the soul's evolution.
Any two people who are willing to learn to create their own inner sense of safety can also learn to create a safe relationship space where their intimacy and passion will flourish and their love will endure.
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That is WONDERFUL! Thanks Hops Ami
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That bit you posted is SO GOOD... I'm going to send it on to MY daughter.
A relationship is a relationship is a relationship, I think. What changes in the type of relationship is the scale and depth of interaction and caring. The size and content of the safe space (we have boundaries on this for less intimate relationships). So, in general, yes I think the concepts and idea can apply to parents and children. After all, that's where we learn how to interact with all others, right?
In this specific instance, I think it will help you suss out your situation. Something else that occurs to me Hops, 'coz it touches on something I'm dancing around with myself, is the generational transmission of characteristics, beliefs, and experiences of abuse. I can see where I've passed on some things, regrettably, to my Ds... because I didn't get to where I am now when they needed me to be. It takes my breath away to think of how I used to be... and how oblivious I was... and how ignorant (uneducated) I was emotionally.
There's no un-do button either. Only trying to make sure that I share what I know now with them and trusting the gods that I didn't unwittingly lock them into their own little, dark boxes. They swear I didn't... and I am not always allowed to offer unsolicited advice... but I can share what I know. They don't always appreciate me implying that they might have some things to work on themselves, either. I try anyway.
I had one rule for them, when they got to be older. No matter what they did, how horrible it was, no matter how angry I felt about it... we would ALWAYS be able to talk about it and I would always love them. Maybe not "just that second"... but we would talk it through. It was my promise to not abandon them emotionally, I think... no shunning allowed. The oldest D pushed me as close as I've ever been to doing that. She's "not right" in serious ways that I have a hard time dealing with - triggers "my mother" nightmares and horrors. But I do still speak with her and see her every few months.
Are you worrying about this too, Hops?
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Hops:
I can only imagine you pictured your relationship with your d......
as I pictured relationships in my life.
Definately good tools and perspectives...... not just for marriage.
I'm reminded of a friend's quote:
"Two reasonable people can work anything out."
I believe that remaining reasonable, while dealing with unreasonable people, is out of whack too.
What does that mean?
Are we back to boundary setting and enforcement?
Is feeling heartbroken and victimized a learned controlling behavior?
I don't really understand how relationships, with only one reasonable person involved, can work out.
I know I rambled a bit there.
Thanks for the post.
Mo2
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That's REALLY good point, Mo2... so good, I have to go and think on it.
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I had one rule for them, when they got to be older. No matter what they did, how horrible it was, no matter how angry I felt about it... we would ALWAYS be able to talk about it and I would always love them. Maybe not "just that second"... but we would talk it through. It was my promise to not abandon them emotionally, I think... no shunning allowed.
Yes, this is exactly what I'm worried about, except the other way around (her shunning me). She knows without a single doubt that I will always love her and would never abandon her.
I also fear that in crying into her voicemail at 4:00 when I was so worked up about the money crisis that I came across as weak and sniveling, and now she loathes me. Gawd, she might replay the message. She does NOT like "weakness". This is a young woman who enjoys going to boxing matches. I am an old-ing woman who can't stand violence.
M02, I think being wounded and victimized is only controlling when you use it to guilt the other (which I have done, surely) and otherwise, it may be an organism's natural and forgivable response to a blow on a bruise. What hurts, hurts. And, as is what I think is true for me right now, it's probably both.
I don't know. I am confused and sad. When she is unkind, I am afraid (for my own self, as I have noone else who might care about me in old age--and do I want to be vulnerable to someone who can be so cruel to me?) and I am sad (I failed to transmit kindness and honesty as key values).
Thank god I have a therapy appt. tomorrow.
I know the BEST response would be self confidence, where her implicit threat of abandonment (or NC, same thing) -- or her behaviors that I INTERPRET as threat of abandonment...did not shake me.
If I were less well trained in pain, perhaps I wouldn't feel so much.
Hops
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Color me exhausted but relieved.
She called. I was at work so couldn't talk freely, so she rambled a few circuitous things that seemed to suggest:
--phone problems
--money problems
--bunch of stress due to confronting a professor
Didn't matter to me. I just said, "I'm so glad to hear your voice." Later we exchanged emails and agreed she'll call me tomorrow. I don't think the money issue will be resolved but my fears of abandonment are assuaged... She'll be in town for one night Sunday.
Meanwhile I am SO glad I see my counselor tomorrow, as he will work with me on how to handle "the talk"...best as I can.
Longer term, I have work to do.
I need to develop more detachment and establish more serious boundaries, else when there's another major stressful period in her life, I'll be the outlet/target, and that's not okay with me.
I have resolved not to loan .. ever. And, I do want to ask her how she plans to handle this debt, if she does. (With his guidance on wording, etc.)
Longer term, my work is to establish a stronger self so I don't completely dissolve when she withdraws. It's not healthy.
The panic doesn't serve anything, except to make me miserable.
This has been a very serious challenge to our relationship and our bond. It will never break in terms of love, but she really subjected me to very very severe stress and did not deal with me as an "honest broker".
Her excuses may be legitimate but they're legion, so I need to learn effective ways of NOT setting myself up to expect anything.
Tonight, she responded to an email and said she'll call me from the airport, and I sense she may be relieved we're talking again too.
But this was just too much for me.
I must live more for myself now with less expectation of her. She can barely take care of herself.
Thank you all so very very much for the ways you have stepped forward to hear me, hold my hand, and offer me so much heart and so much clear thinking at a time when I just felt heartbroken and afraid.
I hope you, dear VESMBers, know what a REAL force for help and insight you REALLY are in my REAL life!
You have made such a vital difference to me.
with love and gratitude,
Hops
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I have been away for several days. I feel inadequate to offer anything of value but I want you to know that I feel for you. I am so glad she called and I do so hope that she finds her way to making her loan whole. I am with you Hops.
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Hi Hops,
My daughter's parents (that would be me and her dad, divorced), raised her to be a princess. Carte blanche emotional welfare served up on a silver platter! Once while driving back from visiting her, the realization of what we'd done hit me like a ton of bricks! I spent the balance of the trip back trying to figure out what to do about my abrupt enlightenment. The thing I knew for sure was that she deserved so much better! I wanted desperately to make complete restitution for the harm I'd caused.
I'm not assuming that the situation with your daughter is the same as mine. I'm just sharing my experience with you with the thought that in principle there may be some similarities. I don't mean to oversimplify either, but this is what I did. I made a covenant with myself to stay out of my daughter's business from then on, all of it, including her finances. Next I called her and apologized, explaining as best I knew how, why I was apologizing. We'd never had a hostile relationship, and I didn't fear her withdrawing, but I was, fearful that applying what I'd learned might diminish the closeness we'd always shared. It didn't! It made it better! Relinquishing what I'd wrongly assumed was my right to create a princess, enabled me to see my beautiful daughter through new eyes. She's not a princiess. She's a woman. My joy is seeing the unending essence of who she is (with no imposed enhancements from me) unfold.
I hope your 'talk' goes well today. Think mutuality!
tt
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I must live more for myself now with less expectation of her. She can barely take care of herself.
These two statements sum it all up, Hops. For me, too.
But, even though things are difficult for the Ds of the world... they'll be fine, just like we were... even though to me the difficulty provokes that primal urge to run in, provide cookies, gifts & hugs & kisses or feel horrible about the separation that now exists and worry - my D is setting her boundary and saying: look, it's rotten & tough - but I'm fine... I've had to try to convince myself I need to let her muddle through her way - so that she develops the self-confidence she needs, learns what her own boundaries are with others, and develops the other life skills that'll help her feel good enough about herself to risk growing inwardly. She's way more social than I am, but that's not always a good thing for her.
Facebook is a way we're trying to stay connected in little ways - without trespassing. H even posted something really trashy the other day and said "oops! I forgot my mom reads this..." Problem is, I don't say much about myself there. That's a long story.
I hope you find some peace with this soon, Hops.
(tt! Hi! How are you?)
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Dear Hops,
I think you need to be honest about what your own needs FROM your D are, as I see you struggling with.
I think that this one factor may be the hardest for you to dechipher in the puzzle of your relationship with her .
We are so phobic about own own needs that we can't even look at them .
I noticed that you were upset that you showed "weakness" to her.
It was not "weakness" but a genuine need.
As Lise was saying on another thread, it is so hard for us to acknowlege our own needs. We were groomed to be perfect and perfect people don't have needs. Ami
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Whew, thank goodness she got in touch, Hops.
It's like a literal weight, lifted from the heart and mind, yes?
Boundaries.
Rising above and gaining emotional distance.
Sitting with difficult feelings.
Letting her know you'll never ever stop loving her no matter what she does.......
but you do have issues with some of her behaviors.
That conversation doesn't have to be loaded with fear and charged with danger.
It can just be a regular conversation with regular emotions attached.
Right?
I'd suggest writing a letter to my d, reading it and re-writing, reading and rewriting till I was clear about my emotions.
Clarity brings the ability to have any discussion, and remain calmly on track, no matter what's said, IMO, (but I always give that advice and you've heard it before: )
Clarity, is a good thing.
((Hops)) Glad you're feeling better.
Mo2
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Hi PR,
Doing pretty good. Thanks for asking!
tt