Voicelessness and Emotional Survival Message Board
Voicelessness and Emotional Survival => Voicelessness and Emotional Survival Message Board => Topic started by: Ami on August 03, 2009, 12:18:22 PM
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I know I can't be alone in this but I feel guilty for having a self, respecting, honoring and giving dignity to it. *I* am the one putting the screws to my own life with my distortions such as this one.
Just wanted to hear other's viewpoints on it. Thanks Ami
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Hi Ami,
I do not feel guilty much for enjoying life and the reason for that is that I give out a lot in service as well as forgiveness and understanding towards others. Our guilt can get displaced. Sometimes we are guilty for the right reason, because we have done something wrong; I do not want to takeway from the wounds that the NM gives us for trying to take care of ourselves when we were small, those wounds are so painful and frustrating. What I am trying to say is that I have felt guilty in my life for enjoying myself when I am living that from a purely selfish place, when I can balance my self-care and self love between giving out selfless love and care for others, when called to do so, I feel joy, more freely in all areas of my life.
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Also, I can relate to guilt for having a self, just the other day, when I honored myself in allowing myself to explode in frustration, not at others but just out, what was years of pent up frustration that I had never released, I felt guilty and at the same time my child in me felt relieved and honored to finally be free enough to express her rage. So yes, I can relate, I do feel guilty for having a self and for trying to give her dignity when she was raised with so much indignity.
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Thank you (( Lise))
My life is finally feeling a little good. I am afraid to even put my toe in the water of loving myself and having dignity. My M would rage if I had confidence. If I wanted values to define my life like being a virgen until I got married, she mocked me . I remember seeing her smirking face saying 'Who did you think YOU are?"
Whatever she could do to take away the little bit of dignity I was getting as a teen, she would!
I am afraid to feel good b/c she will hurt me ,somehow. Somehow, I am bad when I love, respect and honor myself. That is where I am.
I do get what you mean about giving love.
Last Sat, at the Messianic Synagogue, I tried to help an old man with a walker get some food. I had on a dark blue dress with a scoop neck and a white headband. He asked me"What church do you go to?" I said,'Why do you think I go to a church?" He said,"You look like an angel, a nun."
I will never forget how sweet that was.
Ami
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Ami,
This is a good topic that got me reflecting on the ways that I do not treat myself with dignity. This past two years have been the most painful years of my life but at the same time they have been years of light vs living in the darkness of denial. I'm grateful for much but I realized this AM that I an in much need of healing, so much that I am neglecting the wounds in order to not disappoint others and as well as to care for others more than myself, especially since I was taught in AA that we are to put the needs of others ahead of our own. However, if your leg is broken can you walk on it? If my heart is broken can I love with it? My heart needs time to heal. I've decided, in a huge hug to myself to stay away from all the places that have wounded me in the last two years for as long as needed, it may even take 5 years before I will ever feel ready to be a part of again and ready to give myself in service and love again. I may even be rejected again but if I am healthy in self and less wounded it will be easier to handle. For the first time in my life I have realized that I have not been treated with sincere dignity much, therefore, I am going to give myself that dignity and go away to heal.
This is one of the best choices I could ever make, I am no good to others when I am disturbed and fragile, I only cause and bring more disorder. Better to depart in gracious appreciation for all that I did receive in those places and send well wishes until I am healed enough to withstand the slings and arrows that come with any community and all of life.
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I know that Ray, my guitar teacher, is of much more service than I am. He tried to get me to "do more loving service" the other day. I told him that I want to eventually but *I* have to be more filled up inside emotionally. I have given TOO much in my life. I have gotten my sense of self from "giving" and being of service.
I need to go in the other direction until I heal more. He did understand but I had to spell it out b/c he had a good childhood and does not need the repair I do.
In the past, *I* would have felt guilty and less worthy than he. However, my past is different and that is just how it is. I need more remediation.
I will have a unique testimony when I get healed probably more unique than his and this is what he said. Ami
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This thread has really helped me. Thank you!
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I need to go in the other direction until I heal more. He did understand but I had to spell it out b/c he had a good childhood and does not need the repair I do.
Right. Others who have not expereinced the pain of an N abuse upbringing cannot empathize with our pain and dysfunction, people tend to judge what they cannot understand. Those judgements can be very painful, especially when we are trying to heal.
Since this is a thread about feeling guilty for enjoying life there is a great deal of guilt that I feel for being wounded, just plain in pain and in need of rest, I push myself and push myself out of guilt and fear. This thread was helpful for me to just relax a bit and stop pushing myself so much.
Ami - I got laid off my job 4 months ago. It was a dissapointment and trying on me. But in the end I realized that God was giving me the rest that I so needed after working a demanding job and the last two years being in so much emotional pain; it was a blessing in disguise. If God wants me to rest then I need to give that to myself.
Looking back on my life I started working when I was sixteen. I've been working hard my entire life with very little vacation time, not to sob, but just to acknowledge how good God is and that like a parent He knows what is best for us. If He knew that I would need this down time then I need to heed that and continue resting and healing. If I can go away for a while, a small trip to a retreat somewhere I may take that again, I want complete alone time and time to process so that I can function again. It seems that just when I start to feel better I start pushing myself to get a job, applying mass doses of pressure as well as pushing myself to make myself useful somehow and somewhere. Just being there for my family these days is a wonderful thing and I am so grateful to God for graciously giving me this time off. My dad has cancer and if I was working I would not get to spend so much time with him as I have been and going to him after his surgery. My adoptive dad was a good guy who I am very fond of.
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This thread has really helped. I am gonna write more later. I am going through a deep healing of my inner child at the time of attachment. I cried for hours last night but I feel more at peace now and as if I can trust a little more. I will share more later.
I think that God engineers many events in our lives ,such as your job.
My relationship with God used to be more intellectual. I was a student of the Bible and knew a lot for a laymen but my heart did not have a child like faith. Now, I don't study but try to" feel 'my relationship with Him .
Ami
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Lise
Do you see your M? Has the nature of the relationship stayed the same(she is still abusive)? How is the relationship with your F now?
Ami
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I was just thinking about this this morning. I was awake around dawn, heard the birds, felt the cool morning dew, saw the colors of dawn and just gave thanks. My son and I moved out of N hubby's on Saturday and everything went like clockwork. I feel guilty that I don't feel distraught or that I'm not missing him, but I'm walking around with a Cheshire cat grin on my face and feel so calm and peaceful, it's like a dream. I don't have to wait for the next outburst, look around the house at the piles and piles of garbage (he's also OCD/ Pack Rat). I'm not listening for the sound of his car in the driveway to run and hide. I've had a better quality of sleep in the last 72 hours than I have had in 20 years and I cannot believe the difference. Folks keep coming up to me and giving me a hug and saying"I'm so sorry" and I have to suppress the urge to shout "I'm NOT! I should have done this years ago!!!!!!!" N is on his "Victim Tour 2009" and trying to smear my name throughout the town and our church and I really don't care. Folks who know me know better and those who don't I can't worry about. I keep thinking I should feel something other than pure joy and contentment, but that not my frame of mind. N has loaded my email with religious lovey cards (he's rigidly legalistic) and I don't even open them. This morning's message line read "I know you see these!" (LOL) Good topic. I'm so conflicted about acting the "proper emotion" vs "feeling the genuine feeling"...I think it will take a while to trust the actual feelings.
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DOBA,
I viscerally feel your relief and am very happy for you!
It's never too late to decide to be happy. What a joy to read.
Thanks for sharing this.
Hops
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DOBA
I admire you so much for your stand. How did you get the courage to do it? Ami
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I never felt guilty for being happy because it was the only real revenge I ever got on my NM. She had tried very hard to keep me living in poverty. That was to be my punishment for not following the path she had chosen for me. I was the only child of the three who was not given help with college tuition, housing, anything. Everything I ever got, I got through incredible hard work, so I could be proud of myself for finally getting an advanced degree, a good job, and a nice home. M went into a rage whenever I got something that I "wasn't supposed to have." I never let her see that I was suffering inside from her cruel words, so all she saw was someone who had defied her, and gotten "stuff," and it enraged her. Living well and being happy was the only way that I could truly get back at her for the things she did to me, so I didn't feel guilt for it.
That said, I do have feelings of guilt over my decision not to visit her before she dies, and I shouldn't. If I were the one who had terminal cancer, I wouldn't get so much as a card from her. Yet it's very hard to turn off the guilt of basically abandoning her in her final months. I have to work towards shaking that guilt off, because she abandoned me decades ago (literally, as I've been given the "silent treatment" over and over, sometimes for years on end). It's a stinky deal. I was abused so badly, yet sit here saying, "but she's still my mother." But then, her method of attack from day one was to guilt me for "hurting her," so some of my feelings may be a little bit of brainwashing that I need to shake out of my head. You know, when someone spends 40 years telling you that you're ugly, or fat, or whatever, it's pretty hard to not believe it, even if just a little. I guess that's how brainwashing works. They repeatedly pound it into your head until it sticks. The trick is getting it out.
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The NM is a trip all to herself. People who don't know about N's can never understand. It is awful and VERY hard to overcome. I can hear that discouragement in your voice, Kathy.
Sometimes, I feel I am making great progress and s/times I feel I will NEVER overcome the damage.
I do know where I want to go though. I want to feel accepting of who I am--all parts--the primal part as well as the others.i want to have my holes plugged up enough that I don't need first aid from other people to medicate my huge shame.
These are just a few of the places I want to go.
Do you have a vision of yourself ? Ami
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Yet it's very hard to turn off the guilt of basically abandoning her in her final months.
Your NM sounds a lot like my NM but after reading your post I felt gratitude in that mom, unlike yours, has healed over the years and CAN be loving as well as been able to acknowledge the pains she gave me growing up, which like your pain were the name calling and more; although my mom did not use the silent treatment that much she was full of punishment and did not know the meaning of unconditional love.
When reading your post I see a big person who can override the pain of the past, if not at least for a short while, to be there for your mom in her last months, it touched me that you could carry her with love and compassion even though she was so abusive to you.
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Ami, I wouldn't say that I have a vision for myself. More like a desire to just feel normal . . . to get up in the morning and not have a single reminder of what my N did to me, and have it just be GONE. There's a song by Everclear called "Father of Mine," that's about parental abuse. There's a line in there that says "I will always be weird inside." That's exactly how I feel. Interesting . . . that lyric would fit perfectly in the "Six-Word Memoirs" thread. I've always related to that song, mainly that one line, because it just says it so perfectly.
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Oh Kathy
I understand SOOOO how you feel. I do have a memory of feeling normal and that is what I am striving to get back to. It is a beacon for me in the dark. I had confidence and trust in myself once. I felt that I was "someone" and "something" a long time ago. I want to get it back. I want to be "someone" again not this amorphous blob. Ami
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Dear Kathy
I was thinking about your F in the middle of the night. I see you coming out of denial about him as I am trying to do with mine. Your facing yours has given me strength to come out of more denial about mine. Also, we must for any quality of life.
I HAD to make my F wonderful b/c my M was a monster. He was not mean or scary but he simply did not really care. I MADE him in to s/one who really cared and would protect me .
I had recurrent dreams for my entire life,from childhood on, that I was at various places and I called my F to pick me up and he wouldn't. I was at a store, the subway station, a hospital etc. When I needed him the dream would go in to slow motion like I could not dial the phone or could not walk to get to a place to find a phone but the underlying feeling was that he would not help me.
I always had the dreams about him b/c my M was obvious. He was hidden , to me, b/c I NEEDED to believe that I was precious to one parent.
I can see him now, I think.
My M is the sun to him and he revolves around her in a mindless loyal way as an animal would a master.
He CAN be "strong" with me to push me away IF he is doing the dog's job of protecting his master.The master calls all the shots and he is mindless.
That is what happened. They were always a duo.
I think I may have lost my mind if I saw it but my unconscious knew all along. XXOO Ami
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Ami,
Oh, Honey: That is such a HUGE revelation about your F & how you now see , understand & comprehend that they were always a duo. I went thru the same thing. For me, at first, it was devastating. I looked back at my life & felt like I lived in an illusion, a delusion. What was real? What wasn't real? And I felt disgusted with myself that I could be so duped. It's incredibly painful to come out of denial. Little by little, I began to accept the truth & see that my NM & NF were damaged and that they did the best they could do. I think this is something I have learned: People do the best they can do with what they have at that time. Often, the best they can do is often insufficient & damaging and I've come to accept that. That is how things were. Now that I can accept what my NFOO was, I can also accept why I was blinded by denial. We used denial to protect ourselves.
My T said something to me recently which was so helpful: Referring to the past, she said "It's over". Those are 2 very simple words, but they resonated deeply with me: The past is over. I think it's imperative to understand & review our past, so that we can understand the present, but, I don't have to LIVE in the past. So, living within all that FOO dysfunction IS OVER!!!!!!!!!!!! YAY!!!!!!!! I can now accept the past, accept all the dysfunction & my ambiguous feelings about the past, but, I don't have to LIVE in the past. Instead, I can take all the info & tools which I have acquired, reject the ways of past FOO dysfunction & chose NEW healthier ways & thereby Live in the present.
Kathy,
I know it hurts to go thru the stuff you are going thru, but, I know you'll get thru it. Give yourself time, be gentle with yourself. You're probably undoing a lifetime of denial re: your FOO, so it takes time.
IMO, we should congratulate ourselves & celebrate our courage to look at the truth & make our journey out of denial. We rock!!
love to ya both,
ann
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Ami,
Oh, Honey: That is such a HUGE revelation about your F & how you now see , understand & comprehend that they were always a duo. I went thru the same thing. For me, at first, it was devastating. I looked back at my life & felt like I lived in an illusion, a delusion. What was real? What wasn't real? And I felt disgusted with myself that I could be so duped. It's incredibly painful to come out of denial. Little by little, I began to accept the truth & see that my NM & NF were damaged and that they did the best they could do. I think this is something I have learned: People do the best they can do with what they have at that time. Often, the best they can do is often insufficient & damaging and I've come to accept that. That is how things were. Now that I can accept what my NFOO was, I can also accept why I was blinded by denial. We used denial to protect ourselves.
My T said something to me recently which was so helpful: Referring to the past, she said "It's over". Those are 2 very simple words, but they resonated deeply with me: The past is over. I think it's imperative to understand & review our past, so that we can understand the present, but, I don't have to LIVE in the past. So, living within all that FOO dysfunction IS OVER!!!!!!!!!!!! YAY!!!!!!!! I can now accept the past, accept all the dysfunction & my ambiguous feelings about the past, but, I don't have to LIVE in the past. Instead, I can take all the info & tools which I have acquired, reject the ways of past FOO dysfunction & chose NEW healthier ways & thereby Live in the present.
Kathy,
I know it hurts to go thru the stuff you are going thru, but, I know you'll get thru it. Give yourself time, be gentle with yourself. You're probably undoing a lifetime of denial re: your FOO, so it takes time.
IMO, we should congratulate ourselves & celebrate our courage to look at the truth & make our journey out of denial. We rock!!
love to ya both,
ann
Dear Ann
You said exactly what I needed to hear.Want to hear s/thing funny( NOT really)? When I saw your name, I thought you were gonna say,"Stop complaining." This is MY own lack of sense of self, not you.
Then, when I read it, I was relieved b/c you understood so well.
I realize that I always expect harshness b/c that was what I always got. Kindness and tenderness seem strange to me. I am like a dog who was abused and cringes expecting criticism.
I do get that there is a time when the past IS the past. I am hoping that as I let these distortions go(the NM messages), I will walk through the door from the past to the present as a natural thing. XXXOO Ami
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"I realize that I always expect harshness b/c that was what I always got. Kindness and tenderness seem strange to me. I am like a dog who was abused and cringes expecting criticism."
Ami, my Dear,
Yes, this is all part of it: You realize that you automatically expected harshness because that's how you were conditioned. I was always so grateful for a crumb of kindness. I learn new things every day. In this process, we reprogram the negative tapes in our heads minute by minute, hour by hour, day by day.
No, don't get "over" it, go "thru" it. We are making a conscious decision to look at the truth & it hurts like hell. But, we are so freaking brave to do it & there's a big payoff in the process: self knowledge & acceptance.
xoxo,
ann
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My T said something to me recently which was so helpful: Referring to the past, she said "It's over". Those are 2 very simple words, but they resonated deeply with me: The past is over. I think it's imperative to understand & review our past, so that we can understand the present, but, I don't have to LIVE in the past. So, living within all that FOO dysfunction IS OVER!!!!!!!!!!!! YAY!!!!!!!! I can now accept the past, accept all the dysfunction & my ambiguous feelings about the past, but, I don't have to LIVE in the past. Instead, I can take all the info & tools which I have acquired, reject the ways of past FOO dysfunction & chose NEW healthier ways & thereby Live in the present.
Thank you for this ann, this was something that I needed to read and reflect on, the ways that I stay stuck in the past, a habit of mine that I have not let go of just yet.
Lise
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Hi Lise,
You know what my new mantra is? "It's Over". I repeat these 2 simple words to myself over & over. In fact, after my T said them to me, I walked for an hour, just saying to myself, in a soft but audible whisper "It's Over" & "It's Over & I never have to do it again". Wow, I felt so freeking FREE after that. So now, when those negative NFOO tapes play in my head, I audibly whisper to myself "It's Over" & I feel better.
xoxo,
ann
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This thread has turned out so well. I like it when a thread morphs and changes shape as this one did.It was really helpful and so many people contributed. Thank you! Ami
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The master calls all the shots and he is mindless.
That is what happened. They were always a duo.
Wow! You described my family dynamic perfectly. Yes, they WERE a duo. I couldn't accept that at the time, but I see it now.
Someone here recommended the book by Dr. Sam Vaknin, so I did some research on him, and have done some reading on his web site. He talks about a certain personality trait (can't recall the exact term) where people actually seek out Ns to have relationships with. They NEED to be with Ns because they cannot function independently, outside of the "animal/master" arrangement. My father was in that relationship for 50 years, and I'm guessing his mother was also an N, therefore he was used to it. I watch my brother's N wife abuse the crap out of him, and he also complies like a trained puppet, because he grew up with an N mother and doesn't have any frame of reference for what is normal. Seems to be a pattern for male children of N mothers.
Ann, yes, I DID have a lifetime of denial. Part of me still wants to deny it, but recent events have been so painful that I now see pretty clearly that I was in denial. Honestly, it may be for the best that I discovered the truth now. When my M was diagnosed terminal, I actually thought I had gotten lucky, because I would have a few years left to spend quality time with my F. Here I would have been taking care of him, visiting him, buying him lunch, maybe even paying for elder care, unbeknownst to me that he had cut me from his will on M's insistence. I would have found out after he passed away, and the golden child walked off with everything. He would have totally taken advantage of me, only to turn around and burn me. (And I don't mean burned by not getting any inheritance, but burned with the hurt of being thrown under the bus in favor of the GC). So best that I found out now, while I still have some years ahead of me to heal. They took a good part of my life, but they didn't get all of it, so moving on!
Kathy
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The master calls all the shots and he is mindless.
That is what happened. They were always a duo.
Wow! You described my family dynamic perfectly. Yes, they WERE a duo. I couldn't accept that at the time, but I see it now.
Someone here recommended the book by Dr. Sam Vaknin, so I did some research on him, and have done some reading on his web site. He talks about a certain personality trait (can't recall the exact term) where people actually seek out Ns to have relationships with. They NEED to be with Ns because they cannot function independently, outside of the "animal/master" arrangement. My father was in that relationship for 50 years, and I'm guessing his mother was also an N, therefore he was used to it. I watch my brother's N wife abuse the crap out of him, and he also complies like a trained puppet, because he grew up with an N mother and doesn't have any frame of reference for what is normal. Seems to be a pattern for male children of N mothers.
Kathy
I know just what you mean in Vaknin. They never even developed as far as the N(God help us) and so they must find an N and revolve around them.
I felt really hopeless today as I faced this. Ami
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Ami,
Thanks great thread. Thank you for digging deeper.
You know what my new mantra is? "It's Over". I repeat these 2 simple words to myself over & over. In fact, after my T said them to me, I walked for an hour, just saying to myself, in a soft but audible whisper "It's Over" & "It's Over & I never have to do it again". Wow, I felt so freeking FREE after that. So now, when those negative NFOO tapes play in my head, I audibly whisper to myself "It's Over" & I feel better.
xoxo,
ann
ann
I love this and am going to give it a try myself. It sounds soothing, while releasing and letting the old go. "FREEKING FREE" way to go!!!
xo seasons
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Sometimes ,I feel silly for putting these threads out there but these last ones have really helped me and it seems,other people. I feel very happy today about that. XXXOOO Ami
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Ami - there are a lot of threads that I would like to start but that feeling of being silly stops me. I commend your courage for writing these threads.
Hugs,
Lise
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Thanks Lise, that is so sweet . Ami
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I went to my therapist today, and she actually said some pretty insightful things. She didn't side with my F at all this time. I think, in light of recent events, she's now realized that her telling me that I need to be there for my dad was not the best advice. She's now "getting" that he's not this poor brainwashed simple-minded little man, but a rotten parent who did badly by his children.
Interesting . . . she said exactly what Ami said in an earlier thread, that children need to go into denial to save themselves. She said that it's often better for a young child to go into denial, because a child cannot live with the knowledge that neither parent loves them. However, in adulthood, it has to be faced.
When talking about the recent news about the will and other junk, we both agreed that while it was a real shock, it wasn't unexpected. She said that I need to look at all future letters, emails etc. with the attitude of "it's nothing new." Don't let it get to me, don't let it hurt me. Dismiss it as "it's nothing new." She's right. I've been hearing the same crap for decades. It's nothing new. It will never be new. It will always be the same lies, the same hurt, but I can make the choice to allow it hurt me or not. By acknowledging that it's nothing new, just the same-old same-old, I can read it (or not), and shrug it off, and move on with my daily activities.
She also agreed that no spouse is so completely brainwashed by an N that they are incapacitated in controlling their own will. That my father did show strength in his decisions, and his decisions were to protect NM and the golden child. I told her that I felt NC was the best thing for now, and she sure didn't try to talk me out of it. She did tell me to fill my mind with other things . . . work on my novel, get involved with online groups, paint, whatever . . . just keep my mind occupied at all times because an empty mind can easily start wandering off to that dark place again.
For once I feel better after a T visit. A good morning for me. :D
Kathy
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Dear Kathy
It is good that your therapist understood. Alice Miller talks about the child not being able to bear the fact that they were not loved. That is why we hate ourselves so badly. We have to turn the rejection somewhere.The abused child turns it inward.
The degree to which we hate ourselves is the degree to which we HAD to go in to denial and probably how bad it was.
You and I are facing the same thing---the "good " F.
I have been having feelings of hopelessness these last few days. I think it is from this. My F was the last hope I had for a family tie that meant anything.
I always thought my life would revolve around family and extended family as it often does in the Jewish culture. I am finally seeing that it won't be that way for me.
My Aunt(M's sister) has that type of life. I would love to have it but I don't and never did. I had to destroy myself to stay in enough denial to think I had a caring family---URRGH!
I have to trust God. I do have beautiful things in my life. It was just not my family.
My first step is my relationship with myself. That is the hardest but most foundational. I have looked to the outside to make me "something" when *I* need to KNOW I am something and then interact on the outside.
It is a big difference but I hope I am getting there.
You are facing the truth ,Kathy. Down deep, we always knew it. XXXOOOO Ami
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We have to turn the rejection somewhere.The abused child turns it inward.
One thing I found interesting when I was listening to the Michael Jackson phone conversations that were leaked, is when he talked about his father abusing him, he said most people take it out on other people, but "I took it out on myself." And you can see how well that turned out.
I'm starting to think that MJ did the opposite of what we did. He seems to have been in denial about his mother being the perfect loving parent. Katherine Jackson was clearly not totally codependent and effed up like our F's were, but doesn't it seem that he wanted to believe she was perfect? And now she is challenging his will, and trying to take control of his assets. Going against her son's final wishes for CONTROL.
I touched on this a little with my T today, and she agreed, and actually said if anything good comes of his death, is that maybe there will be more awareness of narcissism. She said that many famous people have suffered at the hands of Ns, but they don't get help, because they don't seek it. They internalize it, turn to drugs, whatever, and it ends badly.
I'm sort of going off on a tangent here, but it just dawned on me this morning, that MJ seemed to be in denial too. Hey, his M stayed with her N spouse for 60 years, and she KNEW that the children were being abused. Kinda says something.
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((Kathy))
You are going so much c***. You are thought of and I was so happy to read that your therapist has supported you and given you a slice of peace.
Continue taking care of you, slow and easy. with a warm hug, seasons
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((((((Kathy))))) Ami