Voicelessness and Emotional Survival Message Board
Voicelessness and Emotional Survival => Voicelessness and Emotional Survival Message Board => Topic started by: polymath on August 12, 2009, 07:45:59 AM
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Hello everyone,
It's great to finally find a board that addresses exactly what is wrong with me. It feels good to at least know there is a group that shares the same issues and is searching for a path to healing.
I was raised an only child by a very doting, emotionally controlling mother and religious extremist grandparents who never got the 'love' message, just the rules and regulations. All three of them talked and talked but never listened. My father was a violent drunk that my mother divorced when I was 3. Mom and Granny always put him down to me. He wasn't mean to me during visits as I became an adolescent but by then I'd learned how to keep my head down with the adults in my life.
I was either put on a pedestal (he's so smart, so cute, he's going to be preacher someday, blah, blah) or ridiculed for my 'different' ideas. My mother never let me out of her site to experience my world, fail and have somewhere to come back to to talk about it.
Anyway, all this has left me, a 37-yr-old man with a wife of 11 years and four kids, at the end of my rope. I'm pathologically self-absorbed and self-conscious, unable to see the subtext in relationships. I just bull through life looking for the next narcissism fix. It's like I'm outside-in, always deeply focused on myself and what I can do to bring attention to myself. I just never had anyone, a parent, sibling, or other relative to have real two-way conversation with.
It's like after almost 4 decades of putting on a happy face to the world, I'm running out of energy. Right after a suicidal thought, the next thought immediately after that is the vision of someone telling my children that daddy is gone and never coming back. The ridicule and pain that would cause them is keeping me above ground but for how long?
Two autobiographies, Howard Hughes and Elvis Presley, really made an impression. Both were raised by hovering mothers and no fathers and both flamed out around 40.
I started with my 3rd therapist yesterday and I like the guy but I just don't know where its going to go. He have me some homework, questions like what do you want out of this and what will make you happy. Today, I was thinking of writing him a letter with the answers and the things I forgot to mention yesterday, just to make sure he has a clear picture. Does anyone
Anyway, thanks very much to those of you who took the time to read my pity-party. Are there any guys out there who fit this profile and have found a way back to the wholeness they really never knew? Are there any fast-acting anxiety medications?
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My heart goes out to you,friend. You are not alone. Feel the hopefulness of that. It seems like many people come on the Board in our age group b/c life simply does not work anymore. The energy to hold the defenses together fails. We wonder,"Why bother, anyway?"
You are among friends who do understand.
I think I am getting whole.
I think we need to be seen. You describe not being seen. You had to be what your family wanted you to be on threat of abandonment (death ),so the child adheres.
At some point, the childs real connection to his feelings gets lost. Then, he is the self you describe, at the end of your rope.
"Where did I go?"---you wonder? "Who is in here, anyway?" All I feel is dead. I may as well be dead b/c it is hopeless."What is life worth numb like this?"
I hear that in your words but I may be wrong. That has been my cry and my path of healing .
I think there are ingredients to healing just as there are ingredients to make a plant grow.I think you can find them with talking here.That can be a good start.
I am glad you reached out one more time. I am here to help . I know many others are too.
Sending love to you! Ami
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Thanks Ami,
You got it, that pretty much nails the problem. So much of NPD info on the web is from the victim's side, the people dealing with us. If they only knew the inner pain the N feels but is so afraid to express out of fear. I see these homeless men in town and see a small child 30-50 years ago that just didn't have a chance, had no one to talk to, just surrounded with violence, or addiction, yelling or other constant truama. It's like we're on the other side of a clear but impenetrable glass and we can see what 'normal' is like. We can see the pace of life, the 'right' way to communicate with other beings, with a two-way banter that doesn't get too tied up in what the person thinks but still respectful of them. A feeling that we are both OK. As I described normal to my new therapist he said that very few people are like that, that they are a rare breed, to which I responded that I don't have to be on the other side of the spectrum, just please help me get closer to the middle.
One huge thing I wrestle with is the man/woman thing. We are wired so differently and IMHO it's because a woman has a natural connection with her mother but a boy needs a man to show him the way. I don't mean to downgrade or denigrate your plight as a woman, I really really don't (please hear me on this, if it sounds chauvanistic it's not meant to). A girl can have her own set of severe problems without a good male and female role model to lead them down the path. Some things, I believe, are just different, not bad or good, for men as opposed to women.
Again, thank you very much for your response. Hopefully I can do or say something that helps you in your walk.
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Sweetie,
My greatest joy would be for you to stay here and keep talking as you are. Thank you! Ami
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Hi polymath
Are you sure you are an Disordered Narcissist?... as they are not into seeing their faults, or attending therapy. All of us have some narcissistic traits, but it's when the N-ism is out of control and driving others around you crazy with lies and emotional abuse etc. that it becomes a disorder, not usually recognized
Seeing you here, wanting to be acknowledged, makes me wonder if it's just to be validated as a person for what you think and do, to have a voice and assert yourself in this crazy world.
The Ns I have encountered would never admit to having a fault, let alone voluntarily see a therapist. (Although I do believe that Ns basically hate themselves and REQUIRE the attention , the constant FIX, to help ward off their feelings of worthlessness.
There might me a fine line in some cases.
I like a pat on the back now and again, but if it's overdone, I see it's phony!
Does your therapist diagnose you as disordered?
Greetings
Izzy
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Hon,
being self-absorbed and feeling that there's something "broken", "bad" or "wrong" in you... are very typical symptoms of victims of some kind of abuse. There isn't any abuse that's worse than others - it's all the worst there can be - whether psychological, emotional, whatever. It's all trauma. And even as an infant, you can be traumatized by violence in your home environment.
My advice: write that letter to your T about what you want from therapy. It'll help you think through to some very important information. It'll be OK that it's in a letter. It'll be easier to talk about.
And I would agree with you about gender differences. I heard what you almost said... that how men and women handle and deal with emotions are different. To some degree, at least. Definitely, outwardly, there are social customs and expectations that are very different. Inside, I think it's closer to being to being the same. But I know we all need two "good enough" parents of each sex to grow up healthy... and even then, there are no 100% money-back guarantees.
Also - there are many, many ways to deal with anxiety that aren't drugs. Have you looked into relaxation techniques? The advantage of finding a non-pharmaceutical anxiety-management technique that works for you, is that you don't need anything except yourself to control those feelings. At least, try this first. I'm not saying that a pill might not be needed in your situation - your MD should be able to prescribe one - just that in the long run, if you can learn to do this yourself - anywhere, anytime - you can always be in your "safe zone" whether the pill is at hand or not. Worked for me.
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Welcome, Polymath,
Good for you for reaching out, talking so honestly about how you see yourself and your unique mix of challenges.
I'm glad you're speaking up for humanizing what we here so often call "the N".
You're not a "the", for one thing. You're a person and you're suffering.
If in fact your therapist does say you fit the N-label, then I would hazard you will be one of those who ARE helped and changed. You sound pretty determined.
Determination plus this level of self-exposure and accountability is a positive formula.
(And that's as far as I can go with anything math-related!)
Wishing you well,
Hops
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Welcome Polymath:
When I read your caption.... "At the end of my rope. Now what?"
I thought about that.
I guess you let go of that rope, land (however difficult and awkward that is) then start making new choices.
The old rope didn't seem to be working so well, anyways.
There's a saying that comes to mind...
"When the pain of staying, becomes worse than the pain of going...... we go."
Letting go of the rope, is a choice, even though it feels like you won't survive whatever it is you fear will happen.
Sounds like you want to live your life differently.
Sounds like you want information and new problem solving skills.
Sounds like you want to relate with your family and your world differently.
Why not remember that this fear and pain bring the possibility for growth.......
for relief.
It seems to me, the most painful times in our lives lead to the most meaningful lessons.
That you're seeking help, that bodes bodes well for your future, IMO.
Again, welcome.
M02
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Thanks everyone for your responses. They make me feel a little better.
It's like this (and please tell me if any of you have or do feel this way)...from my very earliest memory I have had to keep my private and public selves separate. When a child can't get some kind of decent attention from an adult in their young lives, they concoct a fantasy world in their own head to keep the pain away. I basically just gave up without even knowing it and turned inward. I got by on decent looks and intelligence, copious amounts of alcohol and women. Now at 37, all the energy is gone. I zone out, barely hear what people say to me, and backtrack/jump forward in my stream of thoughts. The present moment is such a fiery hell that my mind/ego constantly, and I mean constantly jumps backward and forward, not to mention some very heavy memory-loss. As the bills pile-up and my wonderful wife has to work harder and my kids act out ( I can only imagine what goes through their young minds as they deal with my battle on their terms.)
Anyway, thanks again. I don't mean go on and on. I sincerely hope to move up the ladder and be able to help someone else get on.
RS
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Dear RS
What I hear is not a "screwed up" person with this disorder or that. I hear s/one who lost his connection to himself .
When you talk about the public/private selves,it reminds me of what Primal Therapy calls the false self.
People have to throw away their true self, the one with the real feelings, and become what they are "supposed " to be but the true self wants to get out, to express itself. If it can't addictions, illnesses and various versions of an out--of control life happen.
The hardest part is finding a person who can really "see" you as your M couldn't.
You had to be there for HER, to make her look good.
Mirroring is when s/one can show you yourself , not as the public self you have been forced to become.A good M does this for the child.It is crucial to the child's development.
The real you is human, good and bad. We, usually think we are bad but that is part of the many distortions that are making our lives so out of control now.
I lived like that from 14 until now.
The first step is to be seen, IME.
Do you feel a little better after sharing here? Ami
PS You are NOT going on and on. That is the parental voice that tells us we are taking up too much time, space etc.
You have not been able to really share your heart for a long time, is my guess.
People on the Board want to hear!
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I definitely lost my connection to myself and I'm beginning to wonder, if after all the brain cells the alcohol killed, if I can make it. Today has been very difficult. I have avoided all human contact, even with my wife and kids, because of my own paranoia. I know that sounds very sad and twisted but its just my reality.
I have been talking to myself my whole life. I will be outside on the back porch mumbling to myself, smoking cigarettes, and when I open the door to walk in the house with my family, immediately try to put on that happy face I've worn all my life. That's how my 37 years has been spent. I so relate to the homeless guys in their 40's and 50's walking around talking to themselves. The only thing I can't get is why they haven't killed themselves yet. Is it the genetic will to live thats so strong or just that its so difficult without means (gun, poison, gas, etc.)?
I took my 9 yr old to football practice yesterday. We barely spoke in the car. I sat in my car faking reading a book, watching him, and smoking, not speaking to anyone. And I now these people. I feel like everyone's looking at me, thinking 'theres RS. He tried to kill himself a few months back. His reputation is terrible because he has cheated on his wife." The paranoia is just so deep I'm hanging by a thread, acting busy, trying to fit in, moping around.
I just don't know what to do.
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Sweetie
Let me reach a hand to you. RS. I sense that you feel very isolated..
I hear you in a place that I am getting out of, Thank God. It is a horrible place behind a glass wall.
Your thinking gets more and more distorted and you know it but can't stop it.You are starting to feel truly hopeless of ever getting out of this place.
I hear tremedous guilt for not being "good enough". I hear OVER the top guilt about drinking and cheating.
The guilt is a distortion in that it is TOO much. You talked about your family wanting you to be a preacher and maybe that is why you are BEATING yourself so badly for these things.
It seems like you are beating yourself unmercifully. Are you? Ami
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Ami,
I never even knew who I was. Always on the outside looking in. Suffocated, decided for, thought for, spoke for. I'm just not sure if there is a way out of this. All the people I talk to had at least one sibling in the house that made the family dynamic so different. With a brother or sister, the focus can't be totally on one child.
But enough of all the past BS I can't change. I think I just need to take the bull by the horns and find another place fast before this situation makes me do something very final.
RS
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Yes, you sound TOO close to doing s/thing final to mess around much.If moving would be a way to stay alive ,you must. However, your thinking of hopelessness is not "real".You are not seeing ways out when there are.You may not see them now but they will present themselves as let people know what and how you are thinking.
There are doors out. I promise! Ami
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Dear RS,
You have a myriad of "angels" here, no judgement, or harsh rules of what ought to be.
You are, "seen" and "heard".
On this board you will find comfort, counsel, and validation.
We are here for you RS. Please continue to post as often as you want (need) to. Indiered
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Dear Polymath,
If you are having suicidal thoughts, I am concerned about your safety. Particularly because you mention you have already made one suicide attempt. Please call a therapist or counselor or all three. Isolating (staying in the car at your child's game) is not good for you. You may not feel like mingling, but make yourself mingle anyway. Please...remember you ARE (even though you don't feel like it right now) part of the human community.
You are loved and you are needed, even though you feel frayed and in pain and broken. So what? Welcome to the human pool, dear man. WE ARE ALL BROKEN AND MACHISMO IS A CURSE.
One day, after you work your way through this dark time, you can look back from a chapter where you have peace in your heart, love in your life, and renewed health and purpose. IT HAPPENS TO PEOPLE ALL THE TIME, EVEN THOSE WHO HAVE BEEN IN TERRIBLE PAIN. YOU CAN FIND HAPPINESS AND PEACE EVEN AFTER THIS. YOU JUST HAVE TO HANG ON FOR IT.
If you're having trouble hanging on for yourself...please, tell me about your kids. I would really, really like to hear all about your children. Ages? What do they like? Are they funny? What's special to them? About them?
Please hold your children's faces in your mind. And their hearts in your heart. Otherwise, chances are that in your pain, you might choose to let what hurt you about your own childhood absolutely DESTROY your own children. If you kill yourself, you kill a part of them. They will spend the rest of their lives with terrible rips in their hearts, and dark shadows over their hopes.
You deserve to live. They deserve a father. Not a perfect father. The one they've got...who commits to healing.
Moving away from your mother's vicinity is one thing that sounds really helpful. That takes time, of course. Your mother does not have the right to dominate your life. But only you can drag your thoughts away from her.
Please keep posting.
Hops
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Poly:
How did your session with the new Therapist go?
Did you feel you made a connection?
Are you going to continue?
Mo2
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Hi Polymath,
I admire your honesty and I encourage you to keep pouring it out here on the board. Writing things down is therapeutic, even if what you write doesn't resonate with your core or provide THE answer you're looking for in the moment. But a collection of such moments helps move you closer to healing.
I'm pleased to meet you.
tt
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Thanks Ami,
You got it, that pretty much nails the problem. So much of NPD info on the web is from the victim's side, the people dealing with us. If they only knew the inner pain the N feels but is so afraid to express out of fear. I see these homeless men in town and see a small child 30-50 years ago that just didn't have a chance
Again, thank you very much for your response. Hopefully I can do or say something that helps you in your walk.
Poly,
In the past week I have been too self-absorbed here, until today, to read your thread/posts, stuck in my own pain, unmet childhood needs and the ache of that shame that comes from feeling defective. You express yourself well, so much that you write tells the story of someone with a good heart, the one thing in life that really matters.
I too look at homeless people, those sitting on the street, worn down and just tossed out of society. They, some, in a sense, are acting out the drama of their hearts wanting to be seen, wanting sympathy; these componets of love that we never got met in our raising. When I see homeless I feel compassion yet I find it interesting that I cannot so easily turn that same compassion that I feel for them inwards to myself, I can, and at times I have, but overall it has been a struggle.
Half the battle is honesty. If we can face ourselves then we are more than half way home. I too worry about the N's it seems from all that is out there that they are hopeless and we should just avoid them or patronize them. But I, at one time in my life, was highly N, acting out a full image of respectability and "face." I know what it feels like to have that "face" just smashed off. If there had not been other people in my life who too had to stare at their fake face that we hide behind to survive our childhoods and then this adult world then I would have never felt safe enough to push through the denial, the anger, my own lies and self deception to keep facing all that was wrong about me but that was only wrong so that I could survive what was wrong around me in my childhood.
Under the wrong mess of my thinking and then behaviors was a hurt scared little girl that just wanted love, she was never wrong in her needs.
Hope this helps.
Lise
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Dear RS,
You have a myriad of "angels" here, no judgement, or harsh rules of what ought to be.
You are, "seen" and "heard".
On this board you will find comfort, counsel, and validation.
We are here for you RS. Please continue to post as often as you want (need) to. Indiered
I'd just like to ditto what indi said here, welcome.
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I also wanted to say hello to Poly.
Welcome, we are here with with open hearts. Your not alone new friend. (( be safe, remember your children and take care of you)).
seasons
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Poly,
You okay?
What have you done this evening?
What's going on weather wise where you are? It is really hot? Any rain?
What do you have in your back yard...anything growing?
Describe something around you...just the IS of it. Colors, textures.
I'm worrying about you, man.
Hops
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Hey Poly,
I'm Deb and your worrying the hell out of me also.
I got your hand and I am not about to let it go...who's got the other? Your child/children and you just can't let them Go...you will not let them go..you will not allow yourself to let them go...like I said I got the other...and then Hops has mine, and season's has her, and Ami has seasons, Gabben has Ami's, Mof2 has Gabbens, and a total of 1702 members....all hanging on to each other...AND we got you. We'll fight for you, we'll keep your hand, now you fight for yourself and your children and we will go through it with you. Your not alone. Don't you leave your children alone.
Don't look like we are going to let go AND you sure are not going to let go of your Childs...They need you to Heal...
Hops said:
You deserve to live. They deserve a father. Not a perfect father. The one they've got...who commits to healing.
I say Ditto ....
Talk to us!!
Love
Deb
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Dear Polymath
I am gonna differ with some people here. We all are different and that is OK. I couldn't sleep and started thinking that I was disconcerted with some of the comments after mine.
I felt unsettled.
My intuition tells me that you do not need to get caught up in your 3 year old's relationship with the GM.The child is "safe".I feel that you are ridden with guilt and YOUR guilt and YOUR are what is crucial and front and center.
You can't handle figuring out another way you may have failed i.e. leaving the child with the wrong person.
You need to hone your life down to simplicities-- breathe in , breathe out and TALK, TALK, TALK.
You don't have to be good, right, perfect face, perfect words, acceptable words,nice face, nice smile etc.
You just have to have one person to talk to, one connection.
Maybe it can be me. Maybe, I am way off base. It is my intuition you need this. If I am wrong,forgive my "off" thinking.
I think you have guilt right up to the top. It is a lie about what a bad, unredeemable person you are.*I* know that type of guilt. You feel so "wrong".
I think you need to do just one thing---keep talking. That is all for right now. I hope I hear from you when I wake up. I care. I know I don't know you but (((RS))) I care deeply. Ami
PS When I get on the Board tomorrow morn, I hope you will be here and we can talk---just say hello if nothing else.
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Good morning everyone and thanks for your kind words. I'm still here.
As I sit here thinking of what to write, the thing that comes to mind is honesty, brutal honesty. Honesty put forth not in a hurtful way but in a detached and cool kind of way. And that I can't be responsible for someone elses emotions and whats happened in the past.
My biggest personal problem is focus and attention. My thought process right now is so extremely disjointed. I have no flow. The dots just don't connect. I have been watching other people the last few days very closely, normal people, at the ballfield and in my neighborhood. My personal definition of what normal is, and yes I realize normal is a very subjective term, is a thought process that moves smoothly from the moment they are in to the next one. It's almost like they have one foot in now and one foot in the next second. Sure everyone thinks about the past and future but those thoughts are secondary to the moment to moment, "what am I doing right now" type of purposeful thinking.
Heres an example (this is over-analyzing but iits where I am). My step-father and neighbor were helping me work on my car last night. They are just neighbors to each other. They don't hang out but are just civil to each other for a minute when they're paths cross. While they were working on a problem I just sat back a little and watched. When two average people communicate, its like a dance with perfect timing. When one speaks, he might not be done with his sentence but when the other gets the gist of the communication he gently steps in, even if only with a 'yes' or a grunt and the original speaker doesn't mind this mild interruption. Its like #2 is saying unconciously, I hear you and this is my response. #1 doesn't stop his flow when this happens, just continues on. It really is like a delicate dance where both partners give and take on a very split second pattern. Reminds of that book 'Blink' which I think I'll re-read :)
I never saw that growing up. It is a magical and very alien thing for me to watch. My mother and grandmother bullied each other for the stage and my poor meek grandfather just got smacked around. I can't remember a single conversation as I've just described. It was just so weird. No memories of 'normal' people visiting, of parties, of just sitting and chatting, of playing. Yeah, thats it, no playing. Just 3 people caught up in themselves and work. My wife gets so mad, because when she comes home and asks where the kids are, I tell her they're outside playing and I don't know exactly where they are (the 10,9, and 7, not the 3). Because I had such a noose around my neck, I let them run free, maybe a little too much but IMNHO for their long term development its better to err on that side. Mom's, before you send CPS, we live in a small rural neighborhood of 7 families, all in plain sight and yelling distance. No city living with drugs and prostitutes on the corner :)
Finally, in the vein of honesty. My real problem is to me, it's all about me. The absolute worst crime against humanity is to spoil a child, giving in to temper tantrums because we can't handle them. You folks are being kind to a stranger and I thank you so much. But in the face-to-face world where we don't have time to think about what we write, my kind of personality gets old to people quick. Many people's quick response to that last sentence is "well, get to work on changing that" to which I answer,"to what". Its like trying to describe riding a bike to a newborn. Give him a bike, a book about riding, lecture him for hours, empathize, listen, etc and he's still not going to ride that bike.
What I'm really looking for right now is human connection with at least one guy (no offense ladies, please keep your support coming, I greatly appreciate it) who was an only child with a hovering mother and no male role-model and lots of religious coldness who, when things started to break down in their late 30's, fought this battle and won. I knew 3 guys in my home town who pretty closely fit that bill and they all took their own lives. Howard Hughes and Elvis had this problem and rotted to death around 40. I'll not lose my dignity.
Normal people know who they are. There private and personal lives match up. They have a deep deep sense in their psyche that they and others are OK. They have a deep sense of right and wrong. Yeah they may smudge their taxes a little or get mad at a guy cutting them off in traffic but nothing stops them in their tracks, they just keep stumbling forward.
Anyway, thanks so much for your efforts. I look forward to your responses.
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Good morning Polymath!
You had us worried. Hearing your voice this a.m. is very comforting.
I know their are several gentlemen that stop in, I hope they visit and share a bit soon, for you.
I'll be back. seasons ((glad your here))
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Dear Polymath
I am not a man but until one comes along maybe you can continue to share JUST as you are. I think you are defining your dilemma. It is coming in to focus, what you need. Hold fast to that vision. It is your vision out of your dilemma. It is a path and it makes perfect sense.
You are saying you need connection AND hope in order to want to live. You need to find a man with similar circumstances for hope. You want to know it IS possible to overcome what you lost in childhood .You need a man who has done it so you know it CAN be done.You want simple hope.
I, or we, are not men(mostly) and so we cannot provide that hope but perhaps we can provide connection until the man comes along. I think you have defined your prescription for healing(wholeness for you)---hope and connection.
It makes sense.
If you find a therapist, make sure he/she adds to your hope and connection. If you find one who does not, you could get even more hopeless. When you can't connect with a therapist, you often blame yourself . I have been pushed down much more in that situation b/c that person could not connect even though they were a therapist. My Nm is a therapist but that is another story.
Please keep sharing. You may not realize it but you are connecting. Ami
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Dear Polymath
I wanted to add two more things. What I hear under your words are guilt and isolation. Guilt b/c you "fell "so far short of the "Christian" ideal. I don't even think you know,consciously, what the Christian ideal is just that you are so far below it that it seems hopeless.
I think the shame that you feel for your transgressions is weighing on you so heavily and causing despair(I will NEVER be good. I will NEVER be among the land of normal humans who can connect)
This is a distortion but you can't see it now.
It feels very real, as distortions do.
The other distortion, as I see it, is that your life as a child was SO different and awful that your only way out of the damage is death like Elvis.
*I* had that distortion for so long. I thought that my M was SO horrible that I would be impaired and damaged forever. Why try to get in to the land of the living?"
My distortions are breaking but it feels totally hopeless until they do. Noone could tell me otherwise, ever.
I was convinced that I could never be whole.it took connection to get me to see the distortions.
I think your needing a man who HAS broken free of your type of childhood is a solution. You know what you need---hope and connection.
There are certain ingredients for healing. Inside you, you know what you need.
Trust that compass little by little to lead you out of the hole .
I am just getting out of the hole, RS. Ami
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Distortion is a good word and whatever the word would be knowing all the questions and answers in my head but feeling completely unable to put those into my life.
My biggest worry, and I suppose this is the foundation, is that the very basic wiring in my brain.
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NOOOOOOOOOO !
My intuition(very good) tells me your wiring is fine. Your communication(wiring) is fine. Your assessment of situations(minus distortions which are ideas NOT wiring ) is fine.
It is easy for people verging on the side of hopelessness to think their wiring is wrong.
If that were the case, it would seem really hopeless which is where part of you wants to go anyway, in to the dark, giving up. There is a pull in to the dark, in to bed, in to the room where you pull the dark covers over your head and don't try anymore.
Your wiring is as good as mine (laymans opinion but a smart layman) Ami
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woops, wrong button..
the wiring in my brain us just so distorted. I imagine back before my earliest memories, from birth to age 3, and think about how it probably was. Being born to a woman who had no earthly clue what to do with her own life, let alone that of a newborn boy. She was, at 20yrs old still wrestling with her own father's ghastly behavior and her mother's preffering her brother over her. On top of that dealing with an alcoholic, violent, lazy husband who had his own deep family issues, was just so much stress that whatever she could do to silence me was going to happen. She didn't do this with malice and forethought probably, its just all she knew. It was the basic nature she learned.
That being said, I do feel pity and sympathy for her but I still have to cut myself off. What do I have to lose at this point. I feel so much like Job right now, just waiting and waiting for a conversion of some kind. A switch to flip if you will.
Back to the brain wiring thing. My addiction to me is just so powerful. I move from moment to moment, place to place with my own desires firmly in my thoughts. The next cigarette, drink of soda, etc. Whatever, I'm doing takes absolute top priority. Its like crack or meth I suppose. The energy it takes to break this cycle is so heavy. One positive out of it, I've cut alcohol cold turkey. I know in my soul if I take another drink, I will most probably not recover to give this a chance to take hold.
Thanks again Ami, and everyone else for your input, thoughts and prayers.
Waiting on an angel,
RS
Wow what a pity party this sounds like but just my reality.
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NO it is NOT a pity party. You are opening up the faucet to your heart and soul that has been shut for so long. It is embracing the light every time you talk!
Wiring is the brain and distortions are ideas.
Your wiring seems as good as mine but your distortions are ideas you have held for so long that they seem totally true. They seemed true for the little kid to survive but don't work now.They kept you alive b/c they were a way to make sense of the craziness of your life.
The only way to see them is to keep talking(Pity party be damned!) Ami
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Polymath:
Did you meet with your new Therapist yet?
Mo2
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mo2,
Our first meeting was Wednesday and we meet again next Thursday.
This morning I thought for a few minutes about the definition of normal. IMHO it would be a thought process that primarily moves from the present moment to the next moment without obsessive second-guessing. Of course we all think about the past and future but normally this would be secondary thought. Normal would also be a continuous thought and action pattern that isn't stopped in its tracks with thoughts of either 'what do people think of me, or a past or future event. Like rereading a sentence you are sure you typed correctly two or three times just to make sure it was right.
Most people I know, at least in public, don't obsess about things. I do. When I want something, anything, a cigarette, that MP3 player on the other side of the room, or a person's attention, its like I have tunnel vision till I get it. It takes mucho energy to stay in the moments between the thought and getting it. I know this is the result of being spoiled so totally as a child and it is my battle.
Does anyone have that type of obession?
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Dear Polymath
I think what you described---obsessive thinking--can be really scary but I think it is just the distortions clamoring for you to listen. It is the unhealed past trying to get you to face it, look at it.
When it is faced---straight on--it can leave .Then you will be dealing with the present as you are desiring.
However, it hurts to look at it and talk about it b/c there is a lot of shame i.e. I am BAD.
This part hurts so much we don't want to even look at it let alone share it but sharing it is just the thing that dispels it like a ghost.
I am finding that.
Ami
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Polymath:
You seem very aware (and honest) about your thought process, and desire for change.
The therapist probably got a good deal of information from you Wednesday.
What did he/she say, and how did you interpret it?
Mo2
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Hi Poly.
When I want something, anything, a cigarette, that MP3 player on the other side of the room, or a person's attention, its like I have tunnel vision till I get it. It takes mucho energy to stay in the moments between the thought and getting it. I know this is the result of being spoiled so totally as a child
What if you're not completely right?
What if it's only partly environment (the spoiling).
What if it might ALSO be something about your brain wiring, as you suggest? (No value judgement to that, you know.) What I'm getting at is, a lot of people aren't cued in exactly the same way, don't focus in the same way, don't process things in the same way.
The culture's diagnosis-happy, acronym-happy, "disability-label" happy. The thing about such diagnoses is, though, it can be such a RELIEF to learn there may be something different about the way your mind works. That can mean...a solution! Something you can LEARN to offset your instinctive methods.
It would be wonderful to be thoroughly evaluated for things like: Adult ADD, Asperger's, OCD, etc. No idea if any of these would fit you but if you remove the judgment, sometimes some of these patterns spotted by a well-trained pschologist can be the key to healing.
That's what you deserve. Healing.
Hops
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Hi Polymath,
Re: OCD, I found this man's story interesting. http://www.aolhealth.com/condition-center/anxiety-disorder/dealing-with-ocd/
tt
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hi again PM
I don't see you as a hopeless case. You have admitted that it is all about getting back to you, BUT you have also stepped back and have listened to an exchange between two people who are on the same wave length. I could suggest that you attempt to understand the inner workings/thoughts of your wife and children, and attempt the same.
from my very earliest memory I have had to keep my private and public selves separate. When a child can't get some kind of decent attention from an adult in their young lives,
That quote is the beginning of many personality disorders and I expect it depends on how the child reacts as to which direction is taken. For one thing, a parent ought to enter the child's world and see it from his point of view, i.e. teaching from the beginning, sitting on the floor, or at least at his 'level', colours, numbers, games, words, reading, sing-songs and ask the child questions, listen to his answers and store that into memory for the future. If a child has a certain talent, then read up on that talent and learn as much as you can and then the two of you could have the back and forth conversations that you would like to have.....each taking his turn to speak. Taking this route to the nth degree is good for the child. He knows you are interested in him and his well being. All the focus is not to be on you, and not on the child, but how the two of you relate as father and child. The child ought to never have to "go up into the adult world" to look for recognition.
As well, what is your wife's favourite topic, talent, ...again take an interest in that and her and have discussions about individual feelings and a mutual conversation about the topic. In this way you will learn likes and dislkes and try to remember to not present her with only the dislikes.
Right now the important people are you, your wife and your children. You CAN share some of your private thoughts should the occasion arise that something happens NOW to one of them, that happened to you as a child, and you can say it hurt you, or you cried, or you laughed, whatever, after asking whoever how HE feels about what just happened. No two people are going to perceive a situation in the exact same way.
Just as no two children who were ignored, were unloved, etc. in childhood are going to react in the very same way. My sister sees the beatings of our father as just that, and doesn't talk of any harm it did to her. I, on the other hand, have a more sensitive personality, and I took those beatings, AND my mother not stopping them, as direct disapproval {hatred} of me and there was never any closeness............not even when they were dying. My sister and I are in our 70s (oh no I am, she is 69 in Sept). See how long it took for us to try to connect, and this is from a dysfunctional family of 5 siblings all raised the same way. One sister is a Narcissist, another is an intellectual golfer [she says she lives her life the way she golfs]and since I don't golf, I know nothing about her.
Well it sounds as though I have been preaching here while I was attempting to have you see that being interested in another person, and sharing thoughts and ideas, on different topics might be a good way to start, and perhaps your feelings will meld together somehow, until you can finally share them with another, that it won't always be about you, but it will be all about your family!
Good Luck
Izzy
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Hi Polymath
Thinking about you.You know you can share whatver or wherever you want(or not!). Ami
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Oh, Izzy.
This is good parenting summed up.
If a child has a certain talent, then read up on that talent and learn as much as you can and then the two of you could have the back and forth conversations that you would like to have.....each taking his turn to speak. Taking this route to the nth degree is good for the child. He knows you are interested in him and his well being. All the focus is not to be on you, and not on the child, but how the two of you relate....
love,
Hops
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Thanks Izzy, that pretty much does sum it up. I've thought long and hard about the different worlds of children and parents and your spot on. When a child is forced to repeatedly enter the adults world for attention and recognition, problems are sure to come.
As crazy as it sounds, thats what happened to me. and probably to most other people with 'mental illness'. No adult ever got in my world. I always had to go to them. With no sibling to stumble around with, trying to figure things out in our own childlike ways, I just never got a voice. My whole life has been one big 'hey look at me' and after 37 years of fighting that battle I'm running on empty.
My step-father came from crap but he had several siblings. His brother prefers prison because they take care of him (oh how I can relate). His sisters used to tell him to cry so his dad would quit beating him, but he just stiffened his chin and took it. He's a very tough man because if it. He comes home from work, works outside or in his building and my mom stays inside and surfs TV and cleanse her house all OCD like, acting so busy. He doesn't have any friends that visit and he doesn't go anywhere. If I can just get to that level, I think I can make it.
Speaking of levels, its like I never got to level 2. I see normal interaction all around me. People with just the right level of patience to be involved. Not too quick to speak over top others, and not pausing all the time letting conversation pass them by. This all happens in the blink of an eye and takes so much energy to keep up with. I never, never had this modeled for me.
My wife and I had a huge shouting match this morning in front of the kids. She asked where the money thats usually over the dryer was, I told her I didnt know, she said yeah right and it went downhill fast from there. Tons of Fbombs and name calling, she even threw a book at me. I've never struck her and didn't start to. At 6'1" and 210+ I know I'll kill her if I hit her so I went outside, smoked, packed some stuff and left. No one spoke to me as I left except my poor little 3yr old daughter asked me for a hug and a kiss as I left.
THis all really sounds sad but its my reality. My kids act out, have no discipline because my wife and I cant get on the same page. Money's super tight and its just sad. It's my fault for not having the guts to say in the beginning, "I'm not having kids because I know what will happen if I do.' I sat in the dark on the porch 2 nights ago and watched my 9yr old Caleb walking towards the house in the moonlight and started tearing up before he got there, thinking how he, and his siblings didn't ask to brought into the crappy world they're getting but their Mom and Dad just kept drinking, and partying, having unprotected sex and spitting babies out. It really sucks.
Anyway, thanks again everyone for reading and responding with whatever you think helps. If I don't find something that flips this pathological selfish switch off in me soon thats it. Some of us just weren't meant to be here and never outrun the feeling.
RS
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Dear RS
I know you are very serious about suicide. I can tell that you feelings are very real but to me , you are not pathologically selfish.
I think you are probably NOT selfish enough. That is what I am finding about voicelessness.
It is the opposite of selfish.
We don't love, honor and respect ourselves in a good way so we always need the outside to build us up. We are so not selfish about our true needs.
I know about the distortions that can lead to suicide. If you would trust me a little bit and just stay alive and keep talking, I think you will look back and see that it was not all you thought. XXOO Ami
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RS,
I also struggle with depression and have had thoughts similar to yours. One of the things that helps me is to remind myself that I don't want these N's to win!
You are NOT alone here! We all care!
Bones
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Yeah, I can't let my mom off that easy :). I just need to start over, get independent, put up some boundaries and be tough enough, no matter what to keep on keepin on.
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You sound more centered, Polymath ! Ami
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I just wanted to stick in a little point here ... you refer to the way you were raised as you being "spoilt." Well, maybe your mom and grandparents called it that but the truth is, wrapping a child and especially a boy in cotton-wool is not spoiling, it is denying them control and agency over their own lives. I say especially a boy because whether or not it should be, boys are expected to be capable and "tough" and if they are treated as if they are incapable and incompetent, they cannot gain status in the world of their peers. I am an only child, and I can relate to not having any peers within the family to relate to. Usually this happens because the parent is scared of everything and thinks that maintaining total control over their child will keep the child from harm. Underneath, the parent just wants to control. They keep their own anxiety at bay by that rigid control.
My own faith has helped me overcome the fear that used to drive my acting like a Helicopter Mom. Some things happened right under my nose that made me wake up to the fact that I cannot keep all bad stuff from happening to my kids. And in the process of trying to keep them from having ANY bad experiences or sadness, I was depriving them of their own sense of agency and control over their own lives. I decided to take the reasonable precautions that most parents would take, and to trust God with the rest.
I sure do hope that you are getting the care (health AND mental health) that you need to get through this. I don't think pills are the total answer, but if your therapist and your MD think its appropriate for your case, they have the potential for making you feel a lot better, a lot quicker, and then you get the energy to work on the underlying problem. How much do you know about depression? Depressed people are quite often irritable because when you're depressed you feel like you have no resources for coping with life, and it really ticks you off when people make demands on you. Please keep going to your therapist, OR seek a new one if the current relationship is not working out. And I hope that you also will let a physician care for the physical side so that you can start feeling better from several angles.
I've been depressed, I have had to become very self-aware, and the depression itself causes you to turn in on yourself and second-guess yourself more than you would normally.
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I just wanted to stick in a little point here ... you refer to the way you were raised as you being "spoilt." Well, maybe your mom and grandparents called it that but the truth is, wrapping a child and especially a boy in cotton-wool is not spoiling, it is denying them control and agency over their own lives. I say especially a boy because whether or not it should be, boys are expected to be capable and "tough" and if they are treated as if they are incapable and incompetent, they cannot gain status in the world of their peers. I am an only child, and I can relate to not having any peers within the family to relate to. Usually this happens because the parent is scared of everything and thinks that maintaining total control over their child will keep the child from harm. Underneath, the parent just wants to control. They keep their own anxiety at bay by that rigid control.
My own faith has helped me overcome the fear that used to drive my acting like a Helicopter Mom. Some things happened right under my nose that made me wake up to the fact that I cannot keep all bad stuff from happening to my kids. And in the process of trying to keep them from having ANY bad experiences or sadness, I was depriving them of their own sense of agency and control over their own lives. I decided to take the reasonable precautions that most parents would take, and to trust God with the rest.
I sure do hope that you are getting the care (health AND mental health) that you need to get through this. I don't think pills are the total answer, but if your therapist and your MD think its appropriate for your case, they have the potential for making you feel a lot better, a lot quicker, and then you get the energy to work on the underlying problem. How much do you know about depression? Depressed people are quite often irritable because when you're depressed you feel like you have no resources for coping with life, and it really ticks you off when people make demands on you. Please keep going to your therapist, OR seek a new one if the current relationship is not working out. And I hope that you also will let a physician care for the physical side so that you can start feeling better from several angles.
I've been depressed, I have had to become very self-aware, and the depression itself causes you to turn in on yourself and second-guess yourself more than you would normally.
That really really nails it. I have so many memories of them watching over me, making sure I didn't mess up. My grandmother's 'children are to be seen and not heard' surely affected her children which filters down to me. Every time I would stop for a few seconds just to figure something out, there would be one of them pushing, prodding, or just grabbing it to do it themselves. They didn't say anything real mean or call me names, they just wouldn't, or couldn't have the patience and self-awareness to let me grow. My grandfather was the worst. Just last week, he hovered over me as I was changing weed-eater string. It was all I could do not to bite his head off, I mean c'mon now.
My wife and really struggle with working together on this because I probably go too far in making our children do it themselves. Then they start crying and moaning till she steps in.
I know I have what the pro's call Narcissistic Personality Disorder that presents itself with obsessive-compulsive behaviour and self-focus. It would be a miracle if I was any other way. It just blows my mind that human's can treat their children that way. Its generational so I can't rationally blame any one person (who knows what stupid things my grandparents did to my parents, and so on back to whenever)
In conversation, I have this very deep psychological NEED for attention and to control things. Its worked decent enough since I'm 6'1" and handsome enough but its very tiresome. Often I just won't hear the person because I'm so busy daydreaming or formulating what I'm going to say. You can imagine how frustrating this can be for all involved. I just find it so difficult to follow a normal face-to-face conversation thread, seeing the other person without 'sucking up' for attention.
I'm going to stay in therapy as long as I can and try to get on some kind of disability to help with the family bills. Running away is always in the back of my mind but so far the well-being of my children and making it right with my wife are keeping me going.
God, reading over this makes me sound like a pitiful little kid but thats just exactly how i feel.
If anyone has any advice on what type of medications/therapy are effective in this situation I would greatly appreciate any advice. Is disability even an option for personality disorders?
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Polymath:
Every time I come back to this thread, I have the same thoughts......
what would happen if you pick 1 thing to do, with each of your children, a day?
Maybe something for your wife, as well?
Just add it to the top of your list, as a priority, and see how that makes you feel, sticking with it no matter.
It might take you out of your own head, as a relief, for a bit.
It might bring up more difficult feelings, in a different (more helpfu)l direction.
It might create positive feelings you can build on.
That's usually how I climb out from under.......
forcing myself to do something positive (I don't initially want to do.....)
then one good feeling leads to another.
Keep looking for answers, in whatever way you feel is best....
and you'll find them.
Mo2