Voicelessness and Emotional Survival Message Board
Voicelessness and Emotional Survival => Voicelessness and Emotional Survival Message Board => Topic started by: Ami on August 15, 2009, 02:28:16 PM
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This quote summarizes where I am now.
I have taken a little steps away from my NM and BOY was I enmeshed . My very cells were entwined with hers. My breath, heart ,soul etc were enmeshed as if she and I were one--horrible, psychic twins.
By forcing myself out of isolation and having a person to come to when I come falling down, I have started to break some distortions.
Today, I saw the enmeshment for the first time, with my heart and gut.
I have not been for myself. I have been for HER, always having to be first and foremost for her.
I was some inconsequntial thing that had to be fed and watered so I could go forth and be for her, again. Ami
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The WORST thing I could do was try to develop an identity. As I look back, I see the pattern of when I wanted to have some sort of my own identity, she raged, humiliated, decimated or something to pull me back from ever thinking I could have a confident self I could trust.
It is good when the crazy pieces of the puzzle start to make sense. Ami
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I have always been attracted to that quote b/c it seemed to be the essence of mental health. If I am FOR myself i.e honor , respect, love and protect myself (be my best friend), I will be healthy but that is only one part of life. The other part is investing myself in other people.
That seems to be a prescription for a emotionally healthy life.
Neither side can be too unbalanced. *I* was too much in the giving myself for others b/c I thought I was "bad" i.e selfish to have an identity so I was unbalanced on that side.
Ami
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Yes (((((Ami)))))
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Again, very insightful Ami! Good Job!
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Again, very insightful Ami! Good Job!
Ami, do you ever make a point of going out and doing things that make you happy just for you? Following your interests and hobbies. In the past when I took classes about something I wanted to learn about or consciously made myself do things like that I was working on building my own identity I think. It's a way of saying I'm doing something and it is all mine!
Such as taking dance classes or stone carving or what ever....
What do you like to do? What have you always wanted to try doing?
What do you envy?
I guess when we find real passion, real joy, real pleasure in an activity, that it is an inroad to our true self.
There is also that saying about how living well is the best revenge.
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(((Portia)))))) (((((Helen)))) Thank you for that support. It felt so good! Ami
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Dear Helen
It was so sweet of you to ask. For so long,I didn't feel that I deserved to be happy, to have joys , inspiration, beauty in my life. I think it really was punishing myself like my M had for not pleasing HER.
I was afraid to love myself. I was afraid to break away from her program and feel good about myself, to shine in any way.
God intervened for me , again as he did with the Enlightened Witness.
He brought two people who changed my life.
One , Maria, helped make my house beautiful , find God again and become passionate about learning Spanish. The other, Ray is teaching me guitar and piano.
Ray has a great relationship with God and helps me so much with that.
He is as good as Eric Clapton and he tells me that we can go out and play together when I am better. It is my goal to be able to play with s/one of his caliber .
It is all God.
I would not trade my horrible M if I could not have found God. It was worth it although it has hurt like crazy,as you know so well, Helen.
Oh, envy. I envy woman with M's who care for them not the child having to care for the M. I envy woman who had a FOO who would protect them if s/one hurt them.I envy people who did not have to sell their identity in order to survive. I envy woman who developed more in a career than I did.
Those are my biggest envy's.
What are your answers to these questions, Helen? Ami
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I envy people who feel/think their life has a purpose.
I envy people who look after and really feel their bodies. People who enjoy yoga etc.
I envy 'normal' people.
I feel pain sometimes around families.
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I envy people who feel/think their life has a purpose.
I envy people who look after and really feel their bodies. People who enjoy yoga etc.
I envy 'normal' people.
I feel pain sometimes around families.
Helen asked such good questions ! I know what you mean about pain around familes, Portia.
I do all the body stuff but it does not make the emotions better. Ami
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In asking the question what do you envy in other people, I also mean like skills and abilities.
For instance, "I envy people who rockclimb", "I envy the old lady who swims in the lake every morning".
"I envy people who swim with stingrays and dolphins".
Stuff like that. I think that envy=a desire for something=passion=insight into your true self.
How does your being long to express aliveness?
Personally, I did teach myself how to rock climb, it is mine all mine, neither one of my parents rock-climbed ever.
When I rock climbed I really felt like I had my own world. I miss doing it.
Ami:
It sounds like your music is really for you and only you. Is it too late to develop your career?
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Helen, you are so sweet. My teacher told me that when we get 10 songs together we will go play on the beach where people don't pay attention and then in the park and then in other places.
He is a professional musician so I am so honored even to have him be willing to invest time in me.
My greatest joy would be to play music for people. Ami
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I envy people who can make a plan/blueprint for their life and then manifest the plan into reality.
I envy people who can envision their future and can believe in it.
It's like I have this blueprint deep inside of me, I can convince myself that parts of my life have meaning, I can go through bouts of what seems like self-love, I can go jog, I can pretend that I'm dignified, I can pretend that I'm ok.
Underneath it all is a blueprint for a broken house.
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Yes, I get the broken house, Helen. I always had it, too. The foundation is broken even though you can fix yourself up and look "good". My life has been trying to fix myself up from the outside and hope that the foundation would get fixed that way.It didn't work and that is why I gave up and stopped trying.
You have to fix the foundation or the emptiness will never go, IME.
Alice Miller waited a long time to find her Enlightened Witness which seems surprising to me b/c she was an internationally known psychotherapist. You would think she would have had many people who could fill that role along the way but she didn't b/c that person has to fit in a unique way, I guess.
It can be a male/female, old/young/therapist/layperson/educated/noneducated---someone who can walk next to you in your pain and let you experience it while they are next to you.
She says great pain is too hard to bear alone and so you won't. If you don't feel the pain, you can't change. When you do, it breaks down the distortions(denial) and you can see life as it is.
I guess it is like Hansel and Greytl (sp?). They tried to put breadcrumbs so they could find their way out of the forest. We went in to denial b/c of great pain. Denial is what makes us crazy. The denial (distortions) are our "weirdness" b/c we had to morph and think we and the world was a certain way in order to survive. So, we end up a misshapen, warped person.
IF we can come out of denial, we can re-gain our right shape( emotionally healthy).
The Enlightened Witness walks next to us as we come out of denial.
That is how *I* understand what Alice Miller is saying and my experience, also. Ami
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Ok, Ami, I will get Alice Miller books ASAP. :D
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Go on her website. She has reader's mail. I have written 3-4 letters to her .
You will see from her responses what type of person she is. Let me know if you do.
I think her easiest book to start with is "Your Body Never Lies". She says that we HAVE the blueprint for healing within us by accessing our feelings(following our hearts as we did as children).
The Enlightened Witness just walks next to us b/c it is too painful alone. I am excited that you are gonna check her out, Helen! Ami
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Ami, re Alice Miller, I read 'the drama of being a child' (or the drama of the gifted child) and have re-read it recently. There's more in there with each read, it goes deeper each time! And it's a tiny book really, small but very deep.
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Yes, Portia it is one of the deepest ones but very profound. Have you read any others? Ami
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This quote summarizes where I am now.
I have taken a little steps away from my NM and BOY was I enmeshed . My very cells were entwined with hers. My breath, heart ,soul etc were enmeshed as if she and I were one--horrible, psychic twins.
By forcing myself out of isolation and having a person to come to when I come falling down, I have started to break some distortions.
Today, I saw the enmeshment for the first time, with my heart and gut.
I have not been for myself. I have been for HER, always having to be first and foremost for her.
I was some inconsequntial thing that had to be fed and watered so I could go forth and be for her, again. Ami
This is a powerful truthful insight. I have these same kind of enmeshment visuals about just how enmeshed as a child I was in fear; I was bound up in fear so tightly. Ami, my body still carries all of these fears, but I have been also carrying around a lot of judgement around my fears and lack of faith. That judgement beats me over the head telling me to loosen up and let go, almost screaming it in my ear which just scares me even more.
I've been reflecting on how we cannot overcome ourselves, we have to have help, we have to have love. Self cannot overcome self. I say that a lot to myself, but it is so necessary to remind myself and understand that we alone cannot change ourselves, we have to have grace.
Lise
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On the subject of envy here on the thread, (BTW: The study of envy fascinates me?? I do not know why)
Envy can be defined as the feelings of sorrow/loss at another's gain or good. Envy has an existential element about it that is just a lie, in a sense. There is an antedote to envy which is admiration and appreciation for the good of others and their successes. Not easy, but just one practice can begin to change a heart. If you have a hard time seeing or looking at someone or others successes then that is envy turning you away, you are depriving yourself of their joy and goodness. Sort of like Cinderella having to sleep in the tower...away and out of sight from the other sisters who just could not even bare to look upon her because of her goodness and the sorrow they felt at that perceived loss.
Don't get me started...
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Ami,
Are you trying to find your identity when you are by yourself or in relation to groups, or both?
I guess a person's individual identity does cross over into their group identity.
Have you ever noticed that some people have different identities depending on what group they are with?
Are you trying to figure out what types of friends you want now that you have gone through some personal shifts?
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Helen,
You have such an interest in the world and other people. I can tell by the questions you ask.Thank you for asking, Helen. While I am typing 10 people are in my hoouse watching Golf.
Sports are boring to me and the woman were talking about dogs so I to came on the computer .
I think I have to find me, first, definately.
I have tried to find the right people but *I* was not the right person.
I did have wonderful people in my life but *I* was so cycling in craziness from my NM( distortions about myself) that wherever I went, I went and ruined it.
I had a little fun today saying a few crazy things and having some laughs.
I see much better though that I have to BE the right person to have a happy life not find the right people.
XXXXOOOOO Ami
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If you are having fun Ami, I think that is a very good sign.
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I have a lot to write about what I learned today but feel too vulnerable to write so will do so later! Thanks Helen for your posts! Ami
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Ami, Alice Miller. I've read a few. I first bought 'Thou Shalt Not Be Aware: Society's Betrayal of the Child' and that blew my mind, at the time. Also have 'The Untouched Key: Tracing Childhood Trauma in Creativity and Destructiveness' and have read: 'Breaking Down the Wall of Silence', 'Paths of Life: Seven Scenarios' which i thought was so simple, and complex. Important works. Not readily-accepted ideas. Her empathy is immense. Her ideas so...strong.
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Ami, Alice Miller. I've read a few. I first bought 'Thou Shalt Not Be Aware: Society's Betrayal of the Child' and that blew my mind, at the time. Also have 'The Untouched Key: Tracing Childhood Trauma in Creativity and Destructiveness' and have read: 'Breaking Down the Wall of Silence', 'Paths of Life: Seven Scenarios' which i thought was so simple, and complex. Important works. Not readily-accepted ideas. Her empathy is immense. Her ideas so...strong.
She seems like a very independent thinker who bucked the system and got punished for it but was true to herself. That is about as good as it gets! Ami
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Gabben, about envy. Your words about:
If you have a hard time seeing or looking at someone or others successes then that is envy turning you away, you are depriving yourself of their joy and goodness.
Is it possible that when looking at someone or others successes, you (one) are only seeing that which you want to see? And that those 'successes' may not be as enviable as they seem to you? For example, I really don't want to be Madonna or David Beckham. I can imagine parts of their lives that i really don't want (or I could imagine just the 'fun' bits and be envious, perhaps...).
I have a hard time when I realise that people are envious of me. I get shocked. I think: you're seeing what you want to see, you're not seeing me. Walk a few yards in my shoes and then tell me you're envious.
Is envy just a projection? The grass is always greener until you jump the fence. People don't count their blessings enough!
I'm not sure envy necessarily deprives the envious one of others joy and goodness: I think it can also/instead deprive the envious one of their own joy and goodness, which is waiting to be found. ?
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Ah Ami :D I hope Alice Miller is content in herself, I really do. I often think about the authors when I'm reading and something strikes me,and I wonder, do they still think this now, have they changed...? etc. I read a lot of Dorothy Rowe too and I occasionally wonder about her. I spend too much time wondering about other people!! Not really. These authors are like friends to me.
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Hi Portia,
I really don't want to be Madonna or David Beckham.
ditto. LOL.
I have a hard time when I realise that people are envious of me. I get shocked. I think: you're seeing what you want to see, you're not seeing me. Walk a few yards in my shoes and then tell me you're envious.
All I can share with you is my own take and experience as well as what I have read in books, if envy interests you I would take the time to study the emotion. Here is a book on envy that I have loved (the grown up version of the fairy tale expose): Cinderella and Her Sisters: The Envying And The Envying[/i] by Ann & Barry Ulanov. Understanding envy more deeply can open up all kinds of doors to higher understanding. It is a powerful emotion that we all process to one degree or another. When I began to study envy, taking ownership for what I lacked in envy or how much I carried envy I grew and found a new level of happiness and self understanding.
Since my youth I have carried a low self image and low self-esteem partly created out of my negative FOO belief system; blinded by my own low self image I could not see that others were envious of me..."for what?" I would ask myself. It was always hard for me to understand why when other women were cold to me, shutting me out or gossiping about me that is was because they might be envious, I did not like myself and felt that there was no reason for anyone to ever be envious of me. It took growth and self exploration for me to understand that I was a "good" person, that goodness in me was what others envied. People are most envious of good character, deep down we all know just how hard that is to posses, good character.
It took a long time for me, years, to develop an understanding that I had a good heart, not to blow my own horn, that goodness was something I worked to develop over the years having learned that good character was more important than anything else, including fashion -- lol. I am the kind of person who much prefers to get to know other women, care about each other and develop close friendships; I'm a very noncompetitive spirit when it come to female friendships and love.
Is envy just a projection? The grass is always greener until you jump the fence. People don't count their blessings enough!
Envy is an emotion that becomes a projection, the most widely projected emotion, in my estimate, because so very few want to actually have to claim it; therefore, better or less painful to stare at envy in someone else, or pawn it off on someone else.
The grass is always greener until you jump the fence. People don't count their blessings enough!
True. Some of the most envious women I have known are also the most talented and naturally gifted and outwardly beautiful. I imagine that if they were able to take responsibility for some inside thought processes and behaviors they might also be beautiful on the inside too.
I'm not sure envy necessarily deprives the envious one of others joy and goodness: I think it can also/instead deprive the envious one of their own joy and goodness, which is waiting to be found. ?
Yep... Envy deprives when it becomes malicious, meaning acted on envy in the form of say back stabbing, spreading untrue or true rumors as a form of covert relational aggression, stealing..etc., there is a saying that envy steals charity, envy wishes to rob others of their goodness, or joy. It is the deprivation that the envy feels that wishes to rob and steal from others.
Lise
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Wow, thank you Lise. Been studying your reply, mulling and agreeing to myself. I need educating on this topic for sure. Just ordered the book (Amazon marketplace, bargain). This is eye-opening stuff. I have always struggled with envy.
Some of the most envious women I have known are also the most talented and naturally gifted and outwardly beautiful.
Isn't this the case. I once heard a very famous, rich, successful, beautiful film actress talking on TV about her father (also a famous actor). She mentioned seeing some overweight, happy women dancing and having fun, and said it struck her,watching them dance: "I bet their Daddies loved them." not said in a sad way, but with bitterness. Very sad. And she's done a fair bit of 'work' I think. You just want to grab her and say, you're lovable, look at yourself, you're wonderful. She is, too.
Wow! Serious coincidence occuring as i type. I've been remembering images from the film Barbarella, for a few days now. Where she's in the Mathmos towards the end and the Great Tyrant says: "It seems the Mathmos has created this bubble to protect itself from your innocence. You are so good, you made the Mathmos vomit."
Incredible.
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Portia,
Thanks. I am so glad that you ordered the book, the author is a favorite of mine!
This morning I awoke with a reflection, among many, which was about the way that envy disguises itself in us adults as opposed the raw emotion that we see in children say at a birthday when you can just see the cold glare or tears of frustration of other little girls at the loss of it not being their own birthday, even going so far as to grab the presents and try to take!
Adults hide their envy in compliments we even go so far as to give, lavishly, in order to cover up our own envy, to hide it from ourselves.
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We have an actress in our community with whom I found myself spending an afternoon years ago.
As I drove home from her amazing place I felt a wave of envy.
I eventually realized that I WAS jealous, but not of her money or land or things or fame.
I was (and remain) envious of the FREEDOM her money has bought her, to pursue creative things she loves...rather than try to cram them in around a meaningless and draining job.
My first bf's family were multimillionaires, and his brother wound up a suicide.
So I did learn early that money doesn't buy happiness.
But it does buy the ability to structure your own time, and that I envy!
Cain't hep it.
Hops
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I think before you can appreciate money, time, other people or anything, you must have good mental and emotional health. I think that is the ability to see things as they are.When your FOO makes you see things skewed, you are not living life as it IS.
You are living in your own head of distortions.
I ,slowly, am getting my mental and emotional health back.
Last night, if I didn't have my Enlightened Witness, I could not have gotten out of the 'BAD".
I was stuck in "I am bad ". He showed me that I was trying to be perfect and that was why I was stuck. I saw it and I became unstuck, almost as if you pull s/thing off when it is glued.
I became unfrozen . I think the fairy tales are metaphors of this.
It is scary to me how stuck I get and how I can't get out myself but that is how it is ,now. I have to trust that God did not bring me this far to drop me. I know inside He didn't.
The other day, my guitar teacher said he was sitting across the room from my guitar and it played by itself. He( a born again Christian as I am) told me that he thinks Scott's( my son who died) spirit is in the house.
I have felt so happy since then, free in a new way.
So, there are many things outside the dimensions on earth. Ami
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Gabben
Just been musing about any birthday parties I went to as a child. I can only remember one, and I was bemused at the games, particularly ‘pass the parcel’. I just didn’t get it. I don’t doubt that raw envy shows in children. Particularly of siblings? I’m looking forward to the book.
Adults hide their envy in compliments – so that’s why many compliments make me so uncomfortable.
And I get very uncomfortable when people constantly put themselves down, in comparison to me. Someone did it the other day, in my house. And I say: you’re not seeing it clearly, you have all this, and just because I do that, you think that’s special? (I don’t say it like that.) But you end up in a putting- myself-down competition. Ridiculous. I just give up sometimes. Let them have their envy. Not my problem, kind of thing. Throw up my hands.
Hops, yes, I envy more freedom than I have. So I count my blessings. And I think: does anyone have that extra freedom and they are x% ‘happier’ than me? I don’t know. I’m just me. I like swimming in the sea. If I want to do that more, it’s a trade-off against earning the money to be able to do that. Or losing some of my current ‘comforts’ to go swimming, without any money. Etc.
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And I get very uncomfortable when people constantly put themselves down, in comparison to me. Someone did it the other day, in my house. And I say: you’re not seeing it clearly, you have all this, and just because I do that, you think that’s special? (I don’t say it like that.) But you end up in a putting- myself-down competition. Ridiculous. I just give up sometimes. Let them have their envy. Not my problem, kind of thing. Throw up my hands.
Portia, thanks for your insights, interesting.
I learned that to be enved hurts us, really, therefore we intuitively feel threatend and worried when others envy us, they will not treat us warmly or receptively or kindly or they make nasty underhanded put downs or they exploit you, or they shut you out, but most importantly they treat you like you are an object.
When you read the first chapter of the book you will know better exactly what I am talking about.
Lise
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thanks Lise
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I'm thinking about this and to me, jealousy has different faces.
In certain cases I think jealousy and envy are a less mature version of admiration.
I know people that have qualities that I don't have, I can see the beauty in that, I admire them and not hate them for it.
I rather be friends with them that way I can enjoy the quality.
If someone is a dancer, then I can go to a dance performance and just take it in. If I hated the person I wouldn't get invited!
Then there are other types of jealousy like jealousy of relationships.
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I like that! "Guitar that plays by itself." Rock on!
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Re: Hops
I totally agree with you Hops about envy over opportunity to pursue creative things and manage one's own time !
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I am so grateful for all the people who wrote on this thread. I woke up and could see life more clearly. I HAVE to be for myself. That is the natural order of things. How would an animal be if it could not defend itself?
We are animals but also have a "human" part, of course.However the animal(primal) part can't be ignored w/out awful consequences in the world.
My NM programmed me to turn against my feelings . She made me afraid of them b/c they were "bad", as I always say. Hence. I was left in the world with one"speed"--nice and disarmed.
You can imagine how far that got me.
That is the side of the equation which needs help. Is it bad to be "for yourself", respect yourself, honor your feelings, needs, desires, if you are not hurting others. If you first fill your own holes, is that bad? My NM programmed me so well with that one it is a wonder I have gotten this far. Ami
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Gabben,
the book arrived today (!). It looks fascinating. Thank you again for the recommendation.