Voicelessness and Emotional Survival Message Board
Voicelessness and Emotional Survival => Voicelessness and Emotional Survival Message Board => Topic started by: Meh on August 15, 2009, 04:52:14 PM
-
Does any person out here have a fear of intimacy?
If so, how does it manifest?
I wonder if people who did not have a secure bond with their mothers as infants are more likely to fear this...
Or if we don't like ourselves and we really do need some love but are fearful for being seen as a bad person...
-
I think you have explained the dilemma of the child of the N parent in a few sentences. They demanded perfection for THEM.They demanded we take care of THEM or they told us we were "bad"(often with the word, "selfish")
We can't risk being seen b/c other people could confirm our biggest fear, that we are bad.
So, we get in a closed loop where we can't change b/c we can't risk.
I have been in a closed loop since 14.
It was an edifice of distortions that when I see them, they blow away like smoke. They were only ghosts but were so real to me that they almost killed me. Ami
-
Hi Helen,
Fear of intimacy is proably the biggest emotional problem there is, it is what a great many disorders, including NPD, and relationship difficulties are founded on - fear of not being loved and fear of being rejected, fear of not getting the love we need and fear of not being able or adequate to give the love others need, so that we can be loved.
To be loved just feels really wonderful....actually, love is, as I once heard, like the wind on a sail that makes it move. Love is a blessing on our spirits that sends a strong signal to our hearts that we are wanted. If we are not loved then we are stifled in are ability to move, or sail, through life. We need love like we need air.
So, if our emotions as babies, such as crying/tears/grief/expression for a need we had, such as the need to be picked up and cuddled, a need that a baby cannot identify as a need and instead identifies themselves as the need to be picked up and held, were not approved of by our parents/caregivers then babies instinctively shut down the need and the emotions with the need because we instinctively know the primary need we have is to be loved by our parents; if the caregivers go away because of our crying we sense a real threat, a real life killing threat. We instinctively know that we can survive without our emotions, but we also know that we will DIE without our caregivers, therefore, I, as a baby sold my soul, my emotions out in order to get a little food, N supply, or anything to just keep me alive and not abandoned.
The tragedy for me was that I WAS abandoned as a bay and child, repeatedly, which set me up in life for deep anxiety disorder in relationships.
I spent a great deal of my life running away, I think that I am more of an abandoner, one of my favorite things in life, just love them and run.
Explained another way:
So much gets tied into emotions. There are many emotions, facial expressions, needs. Basically babies are a bundle of constant needs. If the caregiver cannot respond to those needs then the child may squish their own needs just to assure primal security of not being abandoned in their psychical needs.
Guess what...the vast majority of the human race cannot love, most people live in fear. Most people confuse love for admiration or success. Most people are terrified of losing face in this world. Most people have lies they carry that they tell themselves such as they are not worth much, they are hopeless, they are inadequate in someway, therefore, if you carry these lies, then you carry the fear of intimacy that goes with the lies. Lies generate fear.
-
I think we have to know we won't die if s/one rejects us in order to be intimate and real. We have to know we can survive or else we will go in to protection mode and never risk. KWIM? Ami
-
I think we have to know we won't die if s/one rejects us in order to be intimate and real.
Well, that is one way to overcome fears, we are all different as there are different ways to overcome. Truth, just telling the truth is one way, but you are correct, we do need safe others in order to tell that truth to and not have them run in order to show us that we are OK. Safe others that will accept, without judgement, our weakness and buried, lost, hidden away frightened child within who just wants to be accepted and loved back into the world.
Pray for "safe others." There is a saying in 12 step recovery "let us love you until you can love yourself." When I first came into AA I found huge amounts of this unconditional acceptance and love stuff. Sadly, there is shortage today. People accept, blindly, but the unconditional love is running very thin in the rooms as well as other places. When I say unconditional love I mean people who had eyes to see and hearts to hug with yet did not make those of us, the walking blind wounded, wrong for being wounded with judgements. It was that atomopshere that made it safe for me to begin to heal and see the truth about myself.
Unconditional love is like a wind that can enable truth to come into our beings, truth that will set us free.
-
I think we have to know we won't die if s/one rejects us in order to be intimate and real.
Well, that is one way to overcome fears, we are all different as there are different ways to overcome. Truth, just telling the truth is one way, but you are correct, we do need safe others in order to tell that truth to and not have them run in order to show us that we are OK. Safe others that will accept, without judgement, our weakness and buried, lost, hidden away frightened child within who just wants to be accepted and loved back into the world.
Pray for "safe others." There is a saying in 12 step recovery "let us love you until you can love yourself." When I first came into AA I found huge amounts of this unconditional acceptance and love stuff. Sadly, there is shortage today. People accept, blindly, but the unconditional love is running very thin in the rooms as well as other places. When I say unconditional love I mean people who had eyes to see and hearts to hug with yet did not make those of us, the walking blind wounded, wrong for being wounded with judgements. It was that atomopshere that made it safe for me to begin to heal and see the truth about myself.
Unconditional love is like a wind that can enable truth to come into our beings, truth that will set us free.
You said it all,Lise. unconditional love is so rare and so powerful ! Ami
-
Helen, what do you call fear of intimacy?
I have been accused by my friend W that I have fear of intimacy. I do not want him in my house too much, I do not want anybody in my house too much, I do not want to share my toys with anybody, my things in general. Is that it? I do not want to take care of anybody. Is that it?
One day we went to the movies and I did not want him to drink from my drink. I do not want to share drinks with anybody. Is that it?
-
I think there's a fear of being intimate with the contents of your own head.
Identifying too closely with the stupid 'me' that we hang on to, not understanding that underneath, we're all the same. We all have basically the same brains, thoughts, emotions. The brain is just another organ, to be understood and changed, for the better.
-
I think there's a fear of being intimate with the contents of your own head.
Identifying too closely with the stupid 'me' that we hang on to, not understanding that underneath, we're all the same. We all have basically the same brains, thoughts, emotions. The brain is just another organ, to be understood and changed, for the better.
This is IT. Portia. I always tried to get that concept but I didn't trust myself enough to face it. If I tried to describe it, I didn;t trsut myself enough to verbalize it. Thank you so much, Portia. You have put a piece in the puzzle for me!! That is exactly MY fear of intimacy. I may do a thread on that,if that is OK XXXOOOOO Ami
-
Go for it Ami! We're ALL in this together.
-
.......or maybe we're not. I have no idea.
-
Hi Ami,
I'm ok with that, if you would like to start another thread about intimacy or the contents of your brain.....
Who you askin' permission from? The Nar-mother in your head?
-
No, I know I can start another thread Portia and Helen.No problem. I forgot about my post b/c I was on the other thread.
Ami
-
Just in case you happen to see this:
I was fearful of intimacy not just with others - but with myself. There were definitely skeletons in my closet that I was afraid of... until they finally got drug out of the dark and looked at... and I could say: well DUH... of COURSE...
I just this week discovered that I find it difficult to stay emotionally active with other people, in the course of conversation or interaction.
-
PhoenixRising
Can you say what you mean by "emotionally active"?
Do you mean paying close attention to the other's emotional state? Tuning in? (as opposed to 'zoning out', which I think I can do...by choice).
I'm interested.
-
Portia:
I mean staying in my own emotions... while interacting with others. Permitting myself to feel and be emotional - and naturally, to express that too. Ordinarily, I distance my emotions in favor of sitting in my observing self, watching, listening, gauging others... and leaning toward intellectual processes and "presentation" to achieve mutual understanding.... instead of just being & feeling... (s'pose this was a survival skill in my FOO...)
I suppose we shift from one place to the other within ourselves, depending on the situation, unnoticed, a lot. Recently, I've become aware of this tendency in me because it's changing - and I think that's a good thing. Of course, this is a sort of a residual personality side effect, from emotional abuse and there is still a lot of fear attached to being in that emotional place, for me. Especially when I'm feeling the stronger emotions of anger, deep grief, or love. More and more, though, I'm seeing that I can be "there" without anything "bad" happening... there really isn't anything to be afraid of - other people DO understand.
Yes, people still try to tone down my intensity and encourage me through my awkwardness as I try out this ability - since I've not had a lot of practice! But no one's denying me the right to be emotional or making fun of me... or saying I'm "crazy" for being so intense about things. I'm still sorting out why other people were allowed to feel things; be emotional... but I wasn't. It just makes absolutely no sense... I can't find the context for this... unless it was simply that other people's feelings in my FOO mattered more than mine.. or they felt one thing, while I felt something else - and they imagined that this was challenging them or being bad... or crazy. I guess I wasn't allowed to have emotional needs... they were just magically going to be met by the universe... or I was just letting my imagination run away with me, to expect safety, protection, love, happiness, encouragement and validation from my parents. It certainly wasn't on their agenda.
But then, too - I was told what to feel; any deviance from that was disobediance or worse - a character flaw, insanity. That "party line" was paranoid, clinically depressed, powerless and full of learned helplessness. When I felt something else - hope, excitement, happiness, anticipation, and the ability to achieve a goal... don't ya know, that was just crazy? And I had to "stop it" and not be so egotistical, getting a "big head" - because it "hurt" my mother... because, I guess, she couldn't feel those things and that meant that they weren't "real".
OK, I'm rambling... but essentially, it's not been safe for me to feel my emotions... to be an emotional person in situations with others - and I learned to even keep my feelings at arm's length from myself via smoking. That, thankfully, is changing as a result of these years of work, now - finally. Yes, it's a little scary at times but I'm plowing right ahead anyway... and it FEELS good; much better than the alternatives. More alive.
And it isn't mutually exclusive to being tuned in to other's feelings - that still happens at the same time - sort of like when you get two radio stations overlapping because of geographics and atmospheric conditions. When I can allow myself to do this, I'm just more "there"... not simply a talking head... in my own experience.
-
Dear Amber
I was trying to tell you this dynamic in our last Board interaction. When I was emotional, you would try to shut ME down with advice that was for "my own good" but really it was for YOU not to feel out of control with someone else emotions.That is what your FOO did to you and you were repeating it.
Do you see what I mean, now? Ami
-
Amber, lots in there, I need to re-read again. Resound-ings...
Ami, I'm sure I've done the same thing to other members, long time ago (I was trying to shut them down because their emotions were too huge for me). Wow.
-
We ALL replay FOO patterns our whole lives. That is probably the root of our biggest problems. When a relationship is stuck, it is probably FOO patterns interplaying with the 2 people.
Ami
-
I'm reminded of the pictures in the Bradshaw book, people with two other people inside them. It's a wonder we don't have more problems, in some ways. It's amazing that people can communicate to the extent that they do.
-
Sorry Ami, I really don't know what you're referring to... yes, I'm aware of my "fixing things" for others and do my best to restrain myself!... but I really don't recall anything coming up between us. It has been a busy couple of weeks for me.
What I'm describing isn't something that happens between me and others; it's between me and me.
-
It was when you realized you were trying to fix your M's emotions through me. Anyway, if you don't remember---no problem. Ami
-
Gosh, I'm really sorry... but I don't ever recall doing this. Not saying that isn't what you perceived... just that I'm not aware of ever doing this - consciously or unconsciously.
-
Thank you, Amber. Ami
-
Helen, what do you call fear of intimacy?
I have been accused by my friend W that I have fear of intimacy. I do not want him in my house too much, I do not want anybody in my house too much, I do not want to share my toys with anybody, my things in general. Is that it? I do not want to take care of anybody. Is that it?
One day we went to the movies and I did not want him to drink from my drink. I do not want to share drinks with anybody. Is that it?
Hello, Lupita,
Thank you for sharing.
When I posted this question I did not define intimacy, it is meant to be an open question for others to describe what they wish about their own versions of "fear of intimacy". I imagine that each person may have a slightly different version of it.
Re: Your desire not to share your things or space, I personally can't tell you if that is a fear of intimacy or not, I think you have to get to the root of your own emotions that are behind a behavior to know for sure. So I can't say if "That is It". Maybe there are other reasons you do not wish to share your things and space?
-
Phoenix,
What an interesting response, yes, I have noticed the difference in the "being and feeling state" and the "thinking, observing state".
Thank you for pointing this out.
I wonder if these two states are mutually exclusive and if so, why?
Is the being/feeling state a requirement for intimacy to occur?
I, personally had a very rare moment with my mother once, really only 1 single time, where I must have been in the being/feeling state that you describe. I sort of teased her and we both started laughing and then while we were laughing we both started crying a little, (tears came out of our eyes). I think it must have been one small, isolated, authentic moment between us that happened years ago.
Also, the comment about feelings, our feelings, other people's feelings and what do we notice more, our own or others?
As kids we were probably taught to ignore our own feelings and pay attention to everyone else's feelings.
Then maybe we can hold our own feelings and other people's in our awareness simultaneously and if we are clear we can choose what to engage or not engage in. It becomes a choice rather then a powerless pull into the other's space?
Hum, the task of not losing track of our own feelings/emotions in the presence of another's feelings/emotions.
Isn't this called individuation?
-
Helen, I don't think feeling/thinking states are mutually exclusive... it's sort of a blend, all the time... until recently, tho - I was more aware of thinking than feeling; now there seems to be a more equal balance. And there is, I believe, a non-verbal reasoning process in our emotional selves. The example you gave is exactly what I'm trying to describe... about intimacy...
and you're spot on about individuation, too. My mother so intruded into my psyche - denied me any boundaries about my SELF - for a time, that I never quite finished that process. I got stuck in the conflict between what I knew was just ME and what my mother insisted I was... and told me I should be. Took some time for me to realize she was wrong, you know? That most of what she told me I was & should be... were her projections of herself and not really me, at all... and that, finally, it was safe to just be ME.
-
I have a fear of intimacy..both intimate..intimate...my husband would definetly agree with this. I do have a personal fear on intimacy. I can talk to somene who I really don't know and they are at a arms length..they are only given basic information, nothing too deep. I don't knwo you ladies, but am getting to know you but its different because of the subject I feel I can be honest and share. there is a difference. But if you met me on the street and you would think I was a different person, not mean, or dishonest, just people wouldnt know me personally. And if there was ever a chance to meet any of you..oh my..the anxiety that i would feel, because i can feel it just thinking about it, thinking, would i be good enough in person for you guys... But then like my therapist says it is like group, you meet some one and you might connect, you get ideas you like, you use the ideas you can use and the ideas you can't leave behind.
-
rugrat, I reckon getting to know someone, just one person, really well, is probably a lifetime's job.
We're all human, we all show different parts of ourselves to different people. Nobody is judging whether you are 'good enough'. You're alive, therefore you are 'good enough'!
PR, i found this interesting:
I'm still sorting out why other people were allowed to feel things; be emotional...
I just thought about that for a while and realised the emotion I saw most of was anger (irritation anger, shouting anger, disapproving quiet anger). When did I see other FOO members show love, happiness, joy, envy, jealousy, despair, sadness..........I didn't.
People in my main family appeared not to have emotions, other than anger. I witnessed a lot of flat-lining as a child: no emotions at all. I guess everyone was an object to everyone else? I can picture that, see the scene. Show any emotion and you might stop being an object, upset the status quo. Sad isn't it?
-
rugrat, I reckon getting to know someone, just one person, really well, is probably a lifetime's job.
We're all human, we all show different parts of ourselves to different people. Nobody is judging whether you are 'good enough'. You're alive, therefore you are 'good enough'!
PR, i found this interesting:
I'm still sorting out why other people were allowed to feel things; be emotional...
I just thought about that for a while and realised the emotion I saw most of was anger (irritation anger, shouting anger, disapproving quiet anger). When did I see other FOO members show love, happiness, joy, envy, jealousy, despair, sadness..........I didn't.
People in my main family appeared not to have emotions, other than anger. I witnessed a lot of flat-lining as a child: no emotions at all. I guess everyone was an object to everyone else? I can picture that, see the scene. Show any emotion and you might stop being an object, upset the status quo. Sad isn't it?
I think you have come a long way from your family, Portia! xxxooo Ami
-
I have a fear of intimacy..both intimate..intimate...my husband would definetly agree with this. I do have a personal fear on intimacy. I can talk to somene who I really don't know and they are at a arms length..they are only given basic information, nothing too deep. I don't knwo you ladies, but am getting to know you but its different because of the subject I feel I can be honest and share. there is a difference. But if you met me on the street and you would think I was a different person, not mean, or dishonest, just people wouldnt know me personally. And if there was ever a chance to meet any of you..oh my..the anxiety that i would feel, because i can feel it just thinking about it, thinking, would i be good enough in person for you guys... But then like my therapist says it is like group, you meet some one and you might connect, you get ideas you like, you use the ideas you can use and the ideas you can't leave behind.
Dear rugrats
I was talking to my guitar teacher, my normie, about this yesterday. He says that he feels nervous about being accepted when he goes out, too. He had it all, football star, musician, handsome, smart(out the whazoo). *I* know what you mean about fear with people.
For me, I think that if I am not perfect--- my true BAD self will slip out and people will hate me.
Last night, I went out to dinner and was more relaxed . I think I am seeing, slowly ,that my kid self, deep self is maybe just human.Keep writing, Sweetie. xxooo Ami
-
For me the fear of intimacy is about remaining authentic in relationship to someone. I was left alone much of my childhood and have spent many years alone with my writing, art and pets. I have often asked myself why anyone would want to know me or be a close friend. Often the answer is that they want to know an artist or like my sense of humor and there are always those who just want to see me when they are in crisis because I am so good at talking people through a crisis. The later are the same people who never call me for that trip to the beach or movie with a group. I'm just to "deep" to bring along or perhaps they would rather leave the memory of their troubles behind.
It isn't easy to get to know the real me, partially because at some point I always intuit what someone wants and be that out of shame or feelings that the real me, which takes time to emerge in a relationship (I have to find it first) isn't even being looked for by the other person. There is also a big disconnect between the competent assertive personality I show to the world and the shy inner self who wants time to get know someone and has too often seen them walk away just when it was sure enough of itself to speak those words of love. I think I have a very different time table for intimacy than most folks and part of the process invovles undoing the other person's presumptions about who I am and what I feel.
-
I'm not as scared as I used to be, but I think that's because I really have let it go. I don't expect anything to happen. It might, might not, and life just got bigger than my fantasies, which I'm ultimately glad about.
In my most recent "boyfriend" thing...which ended for sensible reasons and for which I grieved like mad but this time only for a couple weeks, not months or worse (tremendous progress!! and we're still good friends, which I never knew how to transition to before) -- I remember he said on one of our first outings something like, "Isn't it great, we don't have to worry about stuff like getting married..."
With no planning and with confidence (qualifies as a miracle) I immediately said:
"Speak for yourself! I'm DYING to get married! I want to marry again and I want somebody to absolutely adore me and I want the happiest relationship ever!"
It was funny, we both laughed, but I remember thinking how GOOD that felt--to just tell the truth and not try to suppress or disguise or maneuver.
After all, I never said I wanted to marry HIM. (I'm still open to meeting Mr. Wonderful, but not "trying".)
Hops
-
Thanks for sharing Hops. 8)
-
think you have come a long way from your family, Portia! xxxooo Ami
I think so too Ami....I was checking my description back there, and thought it wasn't really all like that. I remember: lots of silly quips and jokes, childish laughter. There was humour, but it was 'telling jokes' humour, sarcasm etc at a very low level. I know several people who seem to think that relating is about coming out with what they see as a 'smart' comment in response to every conversation starter. Being serious isn't allowed. I guess it makes them too afraid. They're very boring and tiring to be around. I'm talking about the same old things, I know I am.Too many years of the living dead! There's more emotional intensity in the eyes of my neighbour's cat.
-
think you have come a long way from your family, Portia! xxxooo Ami
I think so too Ami....I was checking my description back there, and thought it wasn't really all like that. I remember: lots of silly quips and jokes, childish laughter. There was humour, but it was 'telling jokes' humour, sarcasm etc at a very low level. I know several people who seem to think that relating is about coming out with what they see as a 'smart' comment in response to every conversation starter. Being serious isn't allowed. I guess it makes them too afraid. They're very boring and tiring to be around. I'm talking about the same old things, I know I am.Too many years of the living dead! There's more emotional intensity in the eyes of my neighbour's cat.
Dear Portia,
Explain what you mean, more, if you could. Maybe I am being dense but am not sure what you are saying. Thanks, Portia. Ami
-
I doubt you're being dense Ami! I'm simply amazed by what I now see as The Living Dead, compared to what I thought it was growing up. I thought relating was about smart-alec meaningless quips. Many people from where I grew up are like that. Many still are.
As for the dead eyes, with nothing behind them...yes, i reckon the cat's eyes contain more, they transmit more.
Hope that helps, if not, well, nothing lost i don't think. Thanks Ami.
-
I doubt you're being dense Ami! I'm simply amazed by what I now see as The Living Dead, compared to what I thought it was growing up. I thought relating was about smart-alec meaningless quips. Many people from where I grew up are like that. Many still are.
As for the dead eyes, with nothing behind them...yes, i reckon the cat's eyes contain more, they transmit more.
Hope that helps, if not, well, nothing lost i don't think. Thanks Ami.
Maybe , you are talking about people who are not "there",cut off from their feelings. I think I am just starting to feel. I wrote Alice Miller a letter and her answer was "When you can start to feel, you will know what to do." Isn't that profound. I am starting to feel,now AND starting to know what to do.
I see what you mean about Living Dead. I think it is people really shut down. Do you think that? Ami