Voicelessness and Emotional Survival Message Board
Voicelessness and Emotional Survival => Voicelessness and Emotional Survival Message Board => Topic started by: Lucky on September 01, 2009, 04:13:31 AM
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When somebody has been assassinating your character among a group of people and you are being treated like a leper by these people do you keep interacting with these people or do you turn your back at them?
Will there ever be a chance that people start seeing you for the person you really are?
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That's a very difficult position to be in, Lucky.
As for the manipulated friends?
You can't save people from themselves.
Turn to better things, if you can.
These friends may discover they've been manipulated, but it probably won't be any time soon, IMO.
Mo2
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When somebody has been assassinating your character among a group of people and you are being treated like a leper by these people do you keep interacting with these people or do you turn your back at them?
Will there ever be a chance that people start seeing you for the person you really are?
I would say no. Perhaps it is a repeat of your family pattern where you were shunned, kept out of the family group."Seeing" you takes people who are whole enough to see.
N's cannot see people in a full flesh and blood way. You are a 2D cardboard person who exists to fulfill them . You are THEIR D,W, H, Friend not "you".
For me, it helps to see FOO patterns and how they repeat in our lives until hopefully we find the keys to change them.
((((((Lucky)))) Ami
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In my experience the only thing to do is to walk away. There may be one or two of the group who come around but it is not likely the group will. It is one of the most poisonous things that can happen. It is difficult to walk away. And it is difficult to recover from. One suggestion I can give is to find a way to shift the way you look at the individuals who make up the group, to feel sorry for their loss - it is not easy but it is worth working at because that shift can save you.
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I've dealt with this since I was little. :P I've come to realize that if they are SO SMALL-MINDED as to believe all that venom and poison about a little kid, even a newborn infant, (which they attempt to throw in my face, even today), I don't NEED them in my life!!!! I prefer to stay NC with them. (Once in a while, one of them finds me and tries to stir up the sh*te. They find out, QUICK, I don't play!)
Bones
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I have had this happen many times with different groups and have found that the less I say the better.
Things like, "I know what he has been telling people about me. You had better agree with him or he will be saying the same about you." Then walk away, with a smile on your face. Most people seem to come around if they see enough of the assassin. Once they disagree with him or her, they can see his or her true colors. It can take years for this to happen sometimes, if they don't see them or you very much it may never happen. It's so hard because good people will believe them because they believe that they are being told the truth because they are truthful. I agree with Gaining Strength, feel sorry for these people. They are in the same boat as we are. Being happy and patient can help turn things around.
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This has happened to me. It was one of the most difficult and painful lessons to endure and it went on for 3 years NOT to my knowledge and then 2 years to my knowledge. I stayed quiet as absolutely necessary, otherwise I knew that if I said ANYTHING, even a face grimace, then I would be in what is called reverse slander. It was hard, very hard. Being shunned brought up a lot of memories from childhood; it was dealing with the past and present circumstances of pain, but, I trusted and would tell myself that all would right itself, one day, perhaps not in this life time but if I clung to the truth and maintained my silence and composure, as much as possible, then I could at least be at peace in knowing that I had behaved well. Towards the end of the ordeal I was tired and feeling battered beyond anything that I could have ever imagined. I lost my composure but I don't regret it, if my speaking up helps save someone else from the deceit of the person who started the shunning with the spreading of lies then perhaps my ranting was for a good cause.
There was no way that I could interact with the group that I was shunned with and with the people that bought the lies or stories of this person, the only thing I could do was just keep a distance, I told people a half truth about just needing to be away to heal and take a break from the groups.
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I agree with Bones. To heck with 'em.
My NM started a smear campaign against me when I was just a child. Sadly, some of my relatives bought into it, and to this day believe that I was a bad girl who hurt her mother. I spent years (decades) trying to prove that M's stories weren't true, and crying over the loss of Aunts and Uncles who had been duped. Then I finally realized, that if they loved me, they would have given me the benefit of a doubt. It took a LONG time to accept this, but I now see that anyone who would fall for malicious lies, some that didn't even make sense, well, those are people who I don't need in my life. It hurts to walk away, for sure, but it hurts more to have people who you love believing the worst about you.
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I agree with Bones. To heck with 'em.
My NM started a smear campaign against me when I was just a child. Sadly, some of my relatives bought into it, and to this day believe that I was a bad girl who hurt her mother. I spent years (decades) trying to prove that M's stories weren't true, and crying over the loss of Aunts and Uncles who had been duped. Then I finally realized, that if they loved me, they would have given me the benefit of a doubt. It took a LONG time to accept this, but I now see that anyone who would fall for malicious lies, some that didn't even make sense, well, those are people who I don't need in my life. It hurts to walk away, for sure, but it hurts more to have people who you love believing the worst about you.
Thanks, (((((((((((((((((((((((((((((((JustKathy))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))
Bones
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My Nbrother did a smear campaign against me that was devastating.
He lives across the country but in the year before my very elderly mother's death he came to my home and talked to the neighbors who live on either side of me (40+ years), my mother's church, and her nursing home staff...told them all terrible false things. It was devastating.
Looking back, I think he was projecting his own guilt at NOT taking care of my parents, by accusing me of being a bad caregiver (I wasn't Florrie Nightingale, but pretty darn close, for 10 years F/T and about 5 more before that--while he did nothing but swoop into town once or twice a year).
He even wrote to my very conservative elderly relatives. He accused me of "money laundering" (it was a shared account with my mother, he had no idea what he was talking about) and using a "dead drop" -- woman by the same name in a nearby town popped up on my credit report...it was just all ABSURD. And paranoid. And, frankly, evil.
Which may just be a fancy word for sociopathy.
Anyway, he destroyed our family. Hurt me, hurt my daughter. And that was that.
I think character assassination is a particularly vicious thing to do to people. And cowardly, too.
Lucky, I think you'd be lucky to be rid of them. And I know it's heartbreaking. When/if you have to see any of them, I'd keep your chin up and say little. Something like, "I find X too painful to talk about, but it was untrue" would do it, if anyone is open to hearing.
If you sense they're "closed", then I'd find a kinder circle.
Hops
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When somebody has been assassinating your character among a group of people and you are being treated like a leper by these people do you keep interacting with these people or do you turn your back at them?
Will there ever be a chance that people start seeing you for the person you really are?
There is something to be said for, one time, stating the truth to each of them so that none can ever honestly deny they didn't know the truth.
But usually the only chance of them acknowledging the truth is if they too become the alienated scapegoats of the swarm. (if it's a swarm I guess scapebee might be a better term)
mud
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Thank you all for your replies.
I have to think about the talking to every one of them about my truth though I think I might be considered the lying and smearing party then.
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I have to think about the talking to every one of them about my truth though I think I might be considered the lying and smearing party then.
Lucky:
What's your goal?
Why do you want to speak and what do you wish to accomplish?
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You already realize it's a lost cause, right? You'll probably never sway the manipulated sheep, certainly you won't sway the manipulator.
Limiting your exposure or ejecting them from your life is the best you can hope for, IMO.
If your goal is to "save" the manipulated sheep...... forget that too.
No victims, only volunteers, you can't save people from themselves, which is good to keep in mind when you're making decisions about your future friends.
This much I know:
No matter what you say, or how you say it......
it will draw an attack from the manipulator, which won't be pleasant, and you've already suffered so much.
The manipulator will enjoy fits of indignation and/or curl into a fetal ball while loudly claiming victimhood. "SHE SAID A MEAN THING ABOUT ME AND WANTS TO GET ME!"
Well, ya... you did say a "mean thing," but it was the truth. Why lose track of that?
Because the manipulator makes sure to draw attention to what you've said, and away from their actions, which they manage with little trouble.
This is their element, not yours.
It's uncomfortable to see someone in pain, whether real or for dramatic effect.
Even the non sheep witnesses can be moved to their defense, so uncomfortable is it for good people to witness "suffering."
The more accurate your (hopefully short and succinct) statement is....... the more criticism you draw.
I attribute this to people's inherent goodness, and desire to shield all creatures from cruelty, when witnessing such things.
They didn't witness the terrible thing HAPPEN to you, after all, and you didn't fall down blubbering and demanding victim status, when it did.
Thought: Perhaps you should have?
Perhaps we can state an ungly truth, if we do so with empathy and compassion?
Eh, tried that too and it didn't work either.
I digress. ::shaking head::
Let's look at the best case scenario.... there may be some brave souls willing to stand by you, bearing enlightened witness to your attempt to feel heard. They may stand by you and join your voice.
That's an amazingly helpful connection, to be sure, but at what cost?
It still causes pain and suffering to the innocent sheep, which is alarming to those who care....
you.
It's exhausting and confusing and almost devoid of any satisfaction by the time you've made your point.
The focus may very well remain what you said and not what they did.
Something's terribly askew with this picture.
Unfair and irrational as well, but there it is.
That's the reality of speaking your truth.
I've tried to speak out in many different ways. None very effective (but brevity and ironic humor always made me feel better.)
Frankly, I'm embarrassed for the manipulators.
They never get away without someone seeing behind the mask.
Someone always knows their shameful truth.
They're living without any integrity and they're never worthy of trust.
They're lives are train wrecks and those closest to them suffer and have no peace.
They go from one victim to the next, using the last as their excuse for being who they are.
That would be a terrible way to go through life, IMO.
I feel empathy for these toxic souls, truly I do.
Sometimes I wonder what happened to them, that they live that way.
Mostly I go forth, and try to live my best life.
If they turn me from that,
they're winning.
Mo2
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There is a saying that gossip is a polite form of murder by character assassination.
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I have to think about the talking to every one of them about my truth though I think I might be considered the lying and smearing party then.
Lucky,
If they're treating you like a leper then the N has already succeeded in making you the liar and smearer.
I personally wouldn't talk to them in person; you'll just hear the same lies as before. I'd write or email them, correcting the lies that have been told about you. There is no reason to explain what a puke the N is. There is a small chance one or two of these folks may actually be in the dark about things and are open to reason. In my experience however they already know what they are hearing is lies, they simply choose to go along because they want to avoid the same treatment you're getting or they receive some perceived benefit by allying with the N. Those people are pretty hopeless.
However, often things turn out differently than we suppose they will. The N may die prematurely or be publicly exposed for what they are by some means. If and when that happens you can honestly state that you provided them with the truth and they chose not to listen.
mud
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Thank you all. It seems it's best to keep my mouth shut and not tell my truth.
And what if somebody of the group WANTS to hear my story, is asking me questions about what is happening or is suffering a little bit himself/herself from the N's behavior but still is in the N's camp as well?
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You can choose to respond or not.
Depending on the person asking, relate relevant details in a calm unemotional manner,
or,
tell them you're sorry they're confused but confusion seems to follow the Manipulator like a cloud,
or,
tell them you're sorry they're the chosen target this week, next week/month, it'll be someone else,
or,
tell them you'd like to go into, but you're very busy and can't,
or,
tell them you don't want to go back to that dark place and prefer not to discuss it as you've already moved past it,
or,
explain it in full detail over coffee, without calling for punishment or condemnation of the manipulator. Let the other person come to their own conclusions, after hearing your truth.
I'm guessing you won't want to discuss it unless someone asks you for your opinion.
That's when people are the best listeners.
Do any of those options appeal to you?
Mo2
ps, the less emotion you express, the more likely your story will be heard. People tend to trust a level headed unemotional POV, more than an overtly emotional punitive POV, IME.
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Lucky,
Some people just aren't worthy of the time it might take to change their minds. When a group of people choose to single out a person and demean them, it doesn't matter who the leader is. Usually one or both of these is going on....
1. These people see the person encouraging this as having the power to confer importance on them if they agree (since they have no sense of inner wealth)
and/or
2. These people have little self esteem and can only function by feeling that someone is "lower" on the totem pole then they are.
If you manage to be accepted by this lovely group, I would bet that the first thing you are asked to do is treat their new "scapegoat" with the same disregard that you encountered. Some people live their lives "in relationship to external controls" rather than as individuals motivated by a strong internal value system.
In the recent past I won acceptance with a group that started out acting just as your describe. Since they were my new neighbors I bothered to change their opinion. Once I did I was bored silly and now no longer see any of them. I just don't enjoy talking about other people. That's all they did. I like to talk about ideas, dreams, up coming movies, and doing other fun things.
I say don't waste you time. I know I sometimes get so tied up in overcoming rejections that I forget to see if the person rejecting me is someone I'd even want to know!
S
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Thank you all. It seems it's best to keep my mouth shut and not tell my truth.
And what if somebody of the group WANTS to hear my story, is asking me questions about what is happening or is suffering a little bit himself/herself from the N's behavior but still is in the N's camp as well?
Dear Lucky,
It is a challenging situation. I had a similar one, very painful. I can tell you that after going though my scenario, an N counselor who had me shunned from many others as well as turned many against me in our faith community in her desire for prestige as well as just plain vindictive behavior towards me, I have had many regrets for the way that chose to handle things, or rather would lose it. I always said I would keep my cool; I prayed to maintain my dignity in the face of this N's abuse, for many months I was trapped because I was considered "nothing" in the worlds eyes as far as outward social status and achievements compared to her. She had all the right paper-work as far as degrees, being a social worker, etc., and just plain acting like an angel of a person but a ruthless manipulator and deciever when no one is looking. I was the wounded, the hurting seeking healing, therefore, everyone was very quick to believe this N person and dismiss me in the process, not even give me the time of day to try to tell my truth. It was painful as well as it went on for many months/years, just when I would let go and move on I would find out something else that she had taken from me or another person would suddenly turn on me. It was if I could not run fast enough to just get away without her somehow sneaking back into my world with some form of covert aggression.
What I regret is ever speaking out, although, for the almost first two years I never mentioned her name to anyone, or tried to even speak out about her, it would have been impossible to get anyone to believe me anyway. Then, later, I lost it on this person, I sent them at least 4 angery emails (telling her to stop or just plain getting out my frustration), over a period of many months. Then N took my anger and showed it to people, it was devestating to me and only served to work for her goals even better.
The point that I am trying to make is that when dealing with manipulators you have to be very careful, keep a safe distance and tell your truth to someone compasionate who will understand. Gossip is just never received well unless you are an N and then you can expect that gossip is couched in the most devious ways to disguise itself as being gossip or character assassination. Best, in my opinion to always stay silent, the truth comes out in the end.
In my situation the truth is coming out but it would not have come out if I had not shared my truth, however, I still regret having to do that, I wish I could have been more silent and patient. Finally, when I realized that I had some credibility I decided to tell my truth, however ungraceful, another regret.
I like what Mo2 said:
"ps, the less emotion you express, the more likely your story will be heard. People tend to trust a level headed unemotional POV, more than an overtly emotional punitive POV, IME."
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Okay, I get the picture. I should not try to defend myself because most likely it will only work against me.
And when somebody is in the N's camp but is also suffering from time to time and is telling me about the suffering? Validate or ignore what is being said? If I don't validate her she will think she is to blame. I am talking about a teenager.
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How old are you, Lucky?
What kind of situation are you suffering in?
Sorry if you explained and I missed it.
Mo2
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I am 39 and I am talking about my husband's ex wife who tries to poison everybody around her (including her children) against my husband (the children's father) and I. The two sons are adults, the daughter will be 17 this month.
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Okay, I get the picture. I should not try to defend myself because most likely it will only work against me.
And when somebody is in the N's camp but is also suffering from time to time and is telling me about the suffering? Validate or ignore what is being said? If I don't validate her she will think she is to blame. I am talking about a teenager.
Validate her from that place of love and compassion that you feel for her.
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Hi Lucky,
Often the only way a person knows how to displace or handle the awful feelings of divorce (and other heartaches or social upheavels) is to displace or replace love with hate. If only they understood that there are other options besides poisoning the well with bitterness, jealousy, lies, and the list goes on.
I love this proverb (paraphrased): If there is anything that deserves praise, or has virtue, dwell on them. Such as being, noble, just, lovely, and of good report.
tt
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Hi Lucky,
Truth doesn't keep you warm at night.
But even when you're battered by malice -- if in that MOMENT proclaiming "your truth" doesn't help...I think you will still have a more solid self, later on, when you look back at it all. If you told the truth and did your best (regardless of whether anyone else responded to it or respected it) ... then you will like YOURSELF more.
Ultimately, that will bring you a better life than winning any amount of agreement with others will.
I'm 59 and just about now began to realize how true this is...
hugs
Hops
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Oh, how dreadful when children are involved, Lucky.
That kind of truth always outs itself, IME.
If you defend yourself, are you not attacking the mother and calling her a liar, indirectly if not directly?
That would fuel the confusion, around who wishes whom ill, IMO.
If, on the other hand, the 17yo has questions, your response should be about what you know about you and your h.
Nothing about the mama.... nothing negative certainly.
Was someone here talking about taking the high road?
That's the road you want to take, when children are involved.
Mo2
PS IMO children need to hear they'll always be loved, no matter what, always and forever.
And....
if she talks about her mother in negative terms, you can tell her you know how that feels and empathize, but without judging the mother.
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The mother is treating her daughter very badly at times, that makes it hard sometimes to keep my mouth shut. The mother hits her daughter and rages at her daughter.
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Wow, why did the hitting raging parent get custody?
That's messed up.
Then again, what divorce isn't?
Mo2
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Wow, why did the hitting raging parent get custody?
That's messed up.
Then again, what divorce isn't?
Mo2
I do not think her father really expected that to happen. On the other hand the woman has always treated him very badly. The woman is good at playing the victim and the martyr like most N's. And at playing (but not being) the perfect mother, like my own NM. I think the whole situation IS messed up yes.
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What is your sd's take on the hitting and raging?
Does it leave physical marks?
Is she hitting her in the face?
I'd have a very hard time leaving her in that situation, frankly.
Perhaps this child is mad at your husband for leaving her with mom,
while getting himself out?
Perhaps she understands, on some level, that her mother's accusations about dad don't make sense, but......
she's feels abandoned on some other level?
A good therapist might be able to help you communicate......
might help her overcome all this turmoil too.
Mo2
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My husband and I find it difficult to really understand what precisely is going on because my sd is not so eager to talk about things in detail or really share her emotions. We do not see her very often and when we do see her, it often seems as if she is trying to avoid having "real" contact. It is very frustrating, we do not want to put pressure on her.
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Oh Lucky,
You have my sympathy, I'm in a similar situation. Only 2 boys, young adults.
Was reading on Amy Baker Ph.D website how kids need to go along with NM just to survive. We see this, that makes sense. Looking into getting her books. His X makes boys lives miserable if they don't go along with her. Older one treats DH with silent treatment. Brainwashing? She's even "gotten" to some of his family (together 20 yrs), who validate and bash alongside.
Have read book Divorce Poison, looking up Parental Alienation Syndrome. It's sick. I swear she's punishing him, probably because he finally said no to her (how dare he?). She's smart & powerful. DH is devastated.
I really think you have a chance with SD, be careful she doesn't get "punished" for accepting you. Everyone tells us the boys will come around when in late 20's, but that's like in 10 years!
All the best for you,
KatG
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Lucky:
Is it possible to get your sd an appt with a good therapist?
It sounds like she's between a rock and a hard place..... and pretty much on her own with an unstable mother.
Maybe a T can help?
Good luck.
Mo2
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If we want her to go to a therapist I think it is best if her mother does not know about it, don't you? Because I have a hunch that her mother might not support her daughter going to a T.
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I don't know if non custodial parents are free to take children to a Therapist for treatment, Lucky.
It seems if a 14yo can choose which parent to live with, they should be able to choose to go to a T, but I don't know.
The system's imperfect, esp for the most vulernable involved.
I hope this child has close ties to stable other adults in her life.
Grandparents.....
Aunts or uncles?
How do you think she'd respond to the idea of seeing a T?
Mo2
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I think whether or not a noncustodial parent could take a teen to a therapist depends on the jurisdiction you live in. And also upon the noncustodial parent's rights. If the noncustodial parent has the right to consent to medical care, then they probably have the right to consent to mental health care too. But it should be the parent not the stepparent (the stepparent can carry them to appts. probably but the actual legal parent would have to sign everything and consent). Another question is the legality of keeping such information from the custodial parent, even if the noncustodial one has the right to consent to treatment.
Also a 14 year old is in a gray area where in some jurisdictions the parents have the right to know everything that goes on in session even though this may undermine the point of going. Someone experienced with working with teens may be able to help you navigate the treacherous waters here.
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HOP:
The stepdaughter just turned 17yo.
Around here, a 14yo has the right to choose which parent they'll live with.
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First we will have to try and find out how my sd thinks about going to a T. She might think that she is being blamed for the difficult relationship between her and her mother. I am not sure if she will understand that it is to help her.
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Lucky:
It might not feel like it's doing any good, but.....
sd needs to hear that she's not alone, that she has her father and you in her life forever, and that you guys will be there for her, no matter what.
If she feels judged, or that her mother is being judged, it'll probably make her more defensive.
Maybe you could ask her if she believes time with a Therapist, during this difficult time, would help?
Telling her what to do won't work.
Sounds like communcation isn't going very well so..... where do you start?
Where would you want your father and new wife to start, if you were your 17yo stepdaughter?
Mo2
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Hi Pilgrim,
I would like to call you Pilgrim instead of HOP.
(I am easily confused.)
Would that be okay?
Hops
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I found a therapist who can immediately accept a new patient. Now we have to find out if my sd wants to go.
I am worried also about the fact that she is worried because her mother has threatened to kill herself a number of times. She has been doing that for twenty years already but it must be quite a burden for my sd.
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Yes, Lucky.
I think this child needs a good T.
How did you find this one, and what makes you feel it's a good fit?
Mo2
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Nothing at the moment makes me feel it is a good fit, first we will have to have a talk with the therapist. I find it very difficult to know who might be a good therapist, it is a very scary thought that a bad therapist could cause more damage then he/she would do good. We are only at the beginning of this and if my sd agrees to go we really have to do some intensive talking with a therapist before we would let her go there. I will ask my husband to contact his daughter about this today now that I found somebody who seems to be willing not to involve the mother. Because I am not sure how her mother would react but I think she might be against this.
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Hi Lucky - I can identify with your frustration! I'm a stepmom for 12 yrs now. I met my husband several years post-his-divorce and I almost took a total pass on a great guy since I could see his ex was going to be high, high drama over their 2 kids - indefinitely. Despite the fact she remarried a week after their divorce was final and split mondo assets, I doubt she will ever stop gunning to create negative dramas with him. It as if that's how things are hardwired when you're dealing with a N.
Unfortunately, my impression when I read this thread is that interceeding (advice, therapists) between your SD and her relationship with her NMom seems as if it will meet with a pretty low probablity of success... On the other hand, bolstering your SD's relationship with you and with her Dad is definitely a winning approach. i.e. if she wanted to go to therapy to explore getting closer to her dad, then great.
We're been on the receiving end of constant major and minor parental alienation stuff for years. Badmouthing, fabrications, kids refusing to visit, you name it. A previous poster in this trhead is correct when they said that refuting these allegations (to the children) actually ends up making you guys look that the bad guys since you're pretty much calling the kids mom a liar. Really sad but true.
I sat next to someone a flight and they asked if I was related to ____ (NM-ex), and I said she was my husband's ex, and they gave me the wide-eyed "really???" look with a big wince and I had to laugh. It was weirdly interesting to hear a few more smear campaign anecdotes from my seatmate. It also confirmed that nothing has changed after 12 years.
So, making things safe and welcoming for the kids to enjoy their time with you and their dad without rehashing any NM drama is super hard to do, but it has been the best we can hope for. We've gotten into the habit of changing the subject and consistently encouraging the kids to talk directly to their mom whenever we get traigulated into whatever the latest meltdown or allegation is. We've seen my husband's (and my) relationship with the kids improve as they have grown older and are able to occasionally think more for themselves, but a whole lot of time was lost and a whole lot of tears were shed over the unfairness of it all.
Hope this is helpful, don't want to be preachy, just want to pass along some of what worked for us.
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Hello ShakeSenora,
Thank you for sharing your experiences, it sounds very familiar. My sd has told us she suffers or has suffered from belly aches, nausea, insomnia and chest pain. I think that must be from stress. I so much would like to help her reduce that stress. Her mother loves drama and all that drama going on causes so much stress for the bystanders/victims. We try to be kind and friendly to my sd and support her but her mother is always slashing her father (and maybe me also, I don't know) so she feels a level of distrust and doubt with regards to us. Therefore everything we say or do she might distrust. Maybe she would easier trust a third party like a therapist, a professional.
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Hi lucky, your SD sounds a lot like ours too. It's funny, our teen SS doesn't seem to manifest anywhere near the number of anxiety-related health issues as our SD did through her teens, but he's also much closer to his Dad than she was. I guess stress always comes out somewhere. Sports and hiking an swimming are also terrific ways to releive stress, so maybe your husband might want to do stuff like that with her? My husband just did several early morning 6 mile hikes with SD recently when she was home on a break, and they both seemed to thoroughly enjoy that. We didn't stress over not seeing her much the rest of the time, since she still seems to feel pressured to spend the bulk of her time at her mom's.
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Unfortunately my sd always seems to busy to spend much time with her father. She does not seem to find it necessary.