Voicelessness and Emotional Survival Message Board
Voicelessness and Emotional Survival => Voicelessness and Emotional Survival Message Board => Topic started by: English on September 07, 2009, 03:53:48 AM
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Yesterday I went to celebrate NM's birthday. This was my first time to be around her since I decided she was N. Everything was OK although I was tense the entire time. I also was very anxious before going.
I made the gift I gave; a copy on disc of a season of her favorite show. And a disc of one movie I KNOW she wants to see. But they were copies--not store bought. So the eating, cake, gifts....We were talkiing about a gift she received from her H and I asked where he got it. I might want to get it for someone I knew. H tried to tell me, but I said wait I need to think about it before I get online to buy it right away. Then NM said, "I know you aren't going to get it." At that point I had not yet decided what I was going to do. I still haven't. I replied, "How do you know what I'm thinking?" (This was a calculated response. I wanted to know how NM would respond) NStepF replied in her defense, "Because she's your mother." Boy am I tired of that response of entitlement just because she gave birth to me, she can know everything about me...It's like they think they OWN me. I am not a separate person. I am there to feed their NS.
As I left she said," Thanks for going to the trouble to make copies for me." Boy I can tell, I'm going down on her list of least favorite people. Because of her behavior and my anxiety, I am not going to see her until Thanksgiving. I will only respond to her phone calls on Saturdays. She doesn't know my new boundaries yet. I don't know if I'm going to tell them to her. (I'm scared to). I may just tell her I'm too busy. I used that all last school year. Kind of wimping out here, I'm afraid of her response. crying, anger, questioning me, attacks...talking about me behind my back (Of course she already does this.)
I'm glad to have found this board.
Thanks,
English
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When I came home yesterday, I went to bed, curled up in a fetal position, and listened to an Enya CD. And went to sleep. I can escape my feelings by sleeping. Not good. How do you deal with your horrible feelings about yourself after an encounter with NM? I am proud of the fact that I had confronted her, but it took a toll. :?:
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When I came home yesterday, I went to bed, curled up in a fetal position, and listened to an Enya CD. And went to sleep. I can escape my feelings by sleeping. Not good. How do you deal with your horrible feelings about yourself after an encounter with NM? I am proud of the fact that I had confronted her, but it took a toll. :?:
I just want to give you a hug, ((((English))))) Ami
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When I came home yesterday, I went to bed, curled up in a fetal position, and listened to an Enya CD. And went to sleep. I can escape my feelings by sleeping. Not good. How do you deal with your horrible feelings about yourself after an encounter with NM? I am proud of the fact that I had confronted her, but it took a toll. :?:
The pain is terrible after having been treated like sh*t for the umpteenth time, it hurts so much. Hang in there.
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(((((((((((((((((((((((((((((English)))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))
Given that NWomb-Donor and her NSycophant are so TRIFLING, I would LOVE to be able to say to 'em: "Ahhhhhhh!!!! You ain't worth my time!" :P
Bones
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Hi, English and welcome to the board.
I just read your story. It's only been a few weeks since you've come to the realization that your mom in N. I know from my own experience that it was really, really hard to spend any time with my mother after I had that initial ightbulb moment about what was wrong with her. In a way, I was relieved because I had a name for it and a lot of things finally made sense, but on the other hand, I was like, "What am I supposed to do with this?" Do I shout it out and tell the world? Do I confront her? Do I try to change her? Can I still get her to love me? Etc. It takes time to answer these questions and find the balance of what you want, what you will accept from a relationship with her.
Of course you are going to have bad feelings after interacting with her, especially since it's so soon since you've come to the conclusion that your mom in an N. If you are gentle with yourself and listen to your own voice, you will find ways to cope with the bad feelings you have after seeing her. (And who says sleeping is bad? Maybe you were exhausted. God knows, they can be exhausting.) I've found that journaling helps. Talking to a good therapist helps. I also need to do something physical to get my anger out. (I saw my nMom on Saturday. On Sunday, I took my my DD to the batting cages. For an hour, all we did was hit balls really hard. It was a great release.)
I think that not seeing your mom until Thanksgiving may give you some breathing space so you can focus on yourself and what you want from your relationship with her.
Best to you.
Lollie.
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I don't think it's wimpy to just say you're too busy instead of entering WWIII by saying "I don't want to talk to you so often." I think it's smart. Eventually she will confront you about you pulling away, mine did that to me. But part of setting boundaries is that you have a right to not take someone's calls if you don't want to and you don't have to always explain to them.
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Hi English,
It's not wimping out to just pretend to be busy rather than getting into a huge fight over the situation. When I first wanted to reduce contact with my mum I told her I was working full time when in fact I was at home all day with my little boy. When I eventually went no contact I didn't tell her, I just didn't contact her again and she's never contacted me either, apart from a couple of nasty letters. You have enough to deal with at the minute without getting into a big rift over the way you feel, so if keeping under the radar works best for now then do that. I think you handled the birthday situation really well, and I think sleeping your way through bad feelings is better than drinking through them or getting high, so don't give yourself a hard time about how you handle it. It's very early days, just take baby steps and be nice to yourself. Thinking of you,
Twoapenny xx
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I echo everything the other ladies have said. Its imperative you take care of yourself, you are the only one who can do that. NM are ungrateful and spiteful!
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Thanks for all the support and validation.
One other weird thing at her birthday "party". She commented out of the blue that her NH's head was a large as my F's. She had never met anyone else who had such a large head. I think she was trying to say that NH was a INTELLIGENT as F. (F is a physicist). Intelligence is something she holds very high on her list. So she's trying to say how great she is by being married to men with big heads.
:lol:
It's really kind of hilarious but sad too.
She also made another dig at me. She commented that there were no decorations for her birthday. (Meaning I should have thought to bring some). She's 69 years old! Decorations are for children (4 year olds) like her. I'm not saying it's childish to decorate for an adult's birthday. It's just that at 69 she still expects it. It would feed her NS. Balloons and such are nice, but I'm 49, I celebrate my birthday for the CHOCOLATE birthday cake!!! Ooooh, 5 months til chocolate! :D
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NM tells a story which SHE thinks is cute. She loves to say how at 4 years old I would tell her, "I'm a real person."
She thinks this is funny. Boy I can see that even at such a young age, she was affecting me. I feel so sorry for that child. Her NM didn't validate her. It was all about NM. :(
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Thanks for all the support and validation.
One other weird thing at her birthday "party". She commented out of the blue that her NH's head was a large as my F's. She had never met anyone else who had such a large head. I think she was trying to say that NH was a INTELLIGENT as F. (F is a physicist). Intelligence is something she holds very high on her list. So she's trying to say how great she is by being married to men with big heads.
:lol:
It's really kind of hilarious but sad too.
She also made another dig at me. She commented that there were no decorations for her birthday. (Meaning I should have thought to bring some). She's 69 years old! Decorations are for children (4 year olds) like her. I'm not saying it's childish to decorate for an adult's birthday. It's just that at 69 she still expects it. It would feed her NS. Balloons and such are nice, but I'm 49, I celebrate my birthday for the CHOCOLATE birthday cake!!! Ooooh, 5 months til chocolate! :D
The head thing is really funny , the ways they build themselves up :?. ((( English))), you were saying you were a "real" person NOT an object. You were telling your M you did not want to be an object to her.
When I was 3-5, I used to ask people on the trolleys in Boston if they would take me home and be my mother?.We still have that child in us who "knows"but we had to bury it very far because we had an NM. xxoo Ami
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English, I think the big head thing is funny, too ... we all have big heads in our family (my two sons at ages 4 and 7 had to have adult-size hats) ... I always say it's because of the thick skulls :) .
I am not often tempted to cry when reading, even though many heartbreaking stories are told on this forum. But your little phrase as a four year old really touched me "I'm a real person." I think partly because you had the need to affirm it ... but also because the knowledge that you were --- and are --- a real person came from somewhere. You knew you were a real person. Not everybody knows that even when they are grown-ups.
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NM tells a story which SHE thinks is cute. She loves to say how at 4 years old I would tell her, "I'm a real person."
She thinks this is funny. Boy I can see that even at such a young age, she was affecting me. I feel so sorry for that child. Her NM didn't validate her. It was all about NM. :(
Oh boy, do we have the same Nmom's!! At my bridal shower 4 years ago she told a story to everyone that she came across a letter that I had written her when I was just 8 years old and said that I was "cute" and "sweet" because it said, "Mommy, I love you so much...you are the best Mommy to have....I just don't want you to say that you hate me anymore because I love you so much and what you said makes me cry...." Nmom continued to tell everyone that she thought I was so sweet to write her such a nice letter at such a young age.
Can you believe that? I told this to my T and he said she has true NPD.
English, I'm sorry you have an N for a mother. It's hard, I know. It does not get easier, you just get smarter and stronger. Nmom's are sick and they can't help themselves. It's okay to be sad. Feel sad because you need to feel your feelings because they are real and valid, they are a part of you and they matter. You matter most.
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Oh boy, do we have the same Nmom's!! At my bridal shower 4 years ago she told a story to everyone that she came across a letter that I had written her when I was just 8 years old and said that I was "cute" and "sweet" because it said, "Mommy, I love you so much...you are the best Mommy to have....I just don't want you to say that you hate me anymore because I love you so much and what you said makes me cry...." Nmom continued to tell everyone that she thought I was so sweet to write her such a nice letter at such a young age.
BWM? Can I just barf now? Ugh. (((BWM))) My NM talks about how she "yelled at you kids all the time" like it's a cute family story. Apparently yelling all the time shows her excellent parenting skills. This is the same NM, who when she said she felt sorry for my exNSIL, because her mom was so hard on her, I said, "You were hard on me too you know." "No I wasn't!" she snapped immediately. OK, I guess yelling is not being "hard on a person". Yep, they all go to crazy school together, as Erin from the WIEBGE board would say.
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I'll try to get this across right. Yesterday NM called to say that step-sis had her baby girl. She went on to say that the baby was born on HER BIRTHDAY. The way she said it made it all about her. I had to ask how they are both doing. All she wanted to say is that she was born on HER BIRTHDAY. This step-sis only became part of the family a few years ago when NM married NSF, so NM has a minimal connection with her. She's only seen her a couple of times. She turned this wonderful occassion around and made it about her. Then she proceeded to read my mind and tell me she was going to hang up because she KNEW I was busy. As I'm going along with my learning, I'm seeing N in every little thing she does.
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I'll try to get this across right. Yesterday NM called to say that step-sis had her baby girl. She went on to say that the baby was born on HER BIRTHDAY. The way she said it made it all about her. I had to ask how they are both doing. All she wanted to say is that she was born on HER BIRTHDAY. This step-sis only became part of the family a few years ago when NM married NSF, so NM has a minimal connection with her. She's only seen her a couple of times. She turned this wonderful occassion around and made it about her. Then she proceeded to read my mind and tell me she was going to hang up because she KNEW I was busy. As I'm going along with my learning, I'm seeing N in every little thing she does.
Good gracious. N's are all the same, especially the Nmoms. When I had my daughter 2 years ago, my Nmom was mad that my dad's wife (my step-mom) would be there at the hospital with everyone else. My Nmom kept saying "why does SHE get to be at the hospital? She's not the REAL grandma!!"
You'll get a kick out this:
When my Nmom, my dad and his wife entered the room to see the baby for the first time, I had my baby in my arms literally 30 minutes after giving birth, well, my Nmom nudged my step-mom out of the way and kept saying over and over again, "Oh look, the baby recognizes ME, she recognizes my voice...look at the baby looking at her grandma....the baby totally knows MY voice!!" When my step-mom went to hold my baby, she kept saying that the baby was looking over at her and wanted her grandma. And you know what, Nmom never said congratulations honey, she's beautiful or I'm so proud of the both of you...what a beautiful child, etc. She made it all about her. I wished I could have kicked her out of the room.
How delusional to think that my own child recognizes HER N VOICE and was looking right at her??!! I'm still outraged about this!! What's so hard about saying, "Honey, I love you and you have a beautiful, healthy baby girl, I couldn't be a more proud grandmother?" This was the ultimate dissappointment for me. I have no mother and this saddens me greatly on a daily basis.
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Awwwww. (((((English))))) ((((BWM))))
Yuck. I can't imagine how horrible that must felt. Well, OK, I can imagine just a little.
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thanks for the sympathy Kathleen.
You know, for what it's worth, I like to just come here to write my stories. I love to tell them and I wished we were face to face so that I could see everyone's reactions as I tell stories of my Nmom. Sometimes I thrive on telling someone "what happened to me." Sometimes it drives my day....kind of like a gossip thing but not really. When I was going to therapy, it was like a drug for me. I couldn't wait until my next session with my T to tell him how I feel and what happened with my Nmom and the zillions of questions I had.
I would sit and go from subject to subject in front of him just ranting, crying, ranting, crying and breaking down. Strangely, it felt sssooooooooooo gooooooodddd!!!!
I asked my T why was it that I couldn't wait to come to his office to talk the paint off the walls? His reply was this:
"Bear you have a story to tell. You have to get it out into the world and tell someone what happened to you because what happened to you was atrocious and remains unjustified. Like a crime someone has committed to you, you want justice, it is natural to want justice for it. Also you have been silenced. Your pain was silenced for so long and you were not allowed to 'feel' anything but your Nmom's feelings so now that you can 'feel' for yourself, you MUST experience every emotion that you suppressed or held in private because it is detrimental to your emotional as well as physical health. You were abused. Period. You were never allowed to tell your story, whether it was you were having a bad day with your friends or you were hurt by what your Nmom was doing/saying to you...."
He went on to say more but I'll stop at that. We all have stories to tell and I love hearing each and every one of yours.
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My former T said that it was good to talk about these things that hurt us because bringing them to light helps us heal. It's as if talking about painful things gives them less power over us. I imagine my words and an image of the incident floating up and just disappearing like smoke. Each time we tell others our story, it makes us a little lighter. :)
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My former T said that it was good to talk about these things that hurt us because bringing them to light helps us heal. It's as if talking about painful things gives them less power over us. I imagine my words and an image of the incident floating up and just disappearing like smoke. Each time we tell others our story, it makes us a little lighter. :)
Brilliant! I must be really heavy because I have a lot to say!!!! LOL!!!
Thanks for listening to everyone out there!!
Bear
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I had a friend who "owned" her grandchildren. Started a huge fight with her D before the baby was even born because my friend wanted the new baby named after her own mother (because that would be healing for my friend, it was meaningful to her because of two things: cultural continuity, and her own forgiveness of her abusive mother). I understood her reasons. But I was intensely uncomfortable about her not "getting" her adult daughter's choice NOT to name her newborn after the deceased grandmother. My friend made it a huge battle and huge drama and seriously, doesn't seem to love the new little one (who was given the "wrong" name) like the older child.
She never, ever recognized her daughter and SIL's right to name their own child. I couldn't get that even though she kept telling me it was cultural. I thought it was fairly horrible.
I have always been spooked by a parent who, with BOTH parents sitting in a group, would go on and on about "my child..."
I always think, what about your H or W? Sitting right there? Can't you change your pronoun and acknowledge you BOTH have a child?
Ewww.
Squicks me out.
Hops
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NM called yesterday, but I had already talked to her once this week, so I didn't pick up. When she talked on the answering machine, she had annoyed tone to her voice. She sounded exasperated with me. All she said is, "Hi, it's Mom, I'll talk to you later. Bye." It's amazing how she can make me feel guilty just by the tone of her voice. I hate that.
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NM called yesterday, but I had already talked to her once this week, so I didn't pick up. When she talked on the answering machine, she had annoyed tone to her voice. She sounded exasperated with me. All she said is, "Hi, it's Mom, I'll talk to you later. Bye." It's amazing how she can make me feel guilty just by the tone of her voice. I hate that.
Dear ((English)))
From my experience with an NM, healing is a marathon ,not a sprint. You are just at the beginning stages of facing it. This may be the hardest part b/c we want a good ,loving M and donot want to give up that dream.
I think you are doing really well in beginning to face the truth about your NM.
Keep writing and sharing :D xxoo Ami
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What do you think? Let me give you some background before I discuss the phone conversation with NM.
1. I had lap band surgery in April for weight loss. I also have a long history of severe depressions. Although haven't had any in years. But I know the feeling including the suicidal ones. It's horrible.
2. Because I had lap band surgery in April, NM decided to do it this August. Everyone advised her against it, except the surgeon.
3. She has only been occassionally taking her meds for depression because she has trouble swallowing them through the lap band.
4. I manage to do it by talking to doctors/pharmacists and breaking the ones that I can break. No problems.
She called me at work yesterday trying to explain that she hasn't been taking her meds because of the lap band. Then she started crying; she was obviously depressed. I don't remember what all she said.
I just kept telling her, "You'll be all right. You'll be all right." I didn't have the opportunity being at work and all to ask her the parenting questions I thought I should ask her. "Have you talked to your psychiatrist?" "Did you read on the paperwork that lap band can cause depression?" I feel like I SHOULD parent her; take her by the hand. Tell her what she should do to remedy the situation.
Well I decided NOT to be her parent. She only listens a small amount of the time. She has a husband. She is 69 year old adult. So all I said was that she would be OK. My problem is: I'm trying not to feel guilty in advance if something happens to her, i.e., suicide or overdose. I'm tempted on one hand to jump in and tell her what to do and on the other hand to let her solve her own problem.
I guess I'm asking advice if this was the right thing to do. Not doing anything that is. I don't really CARE what happens to her, but I'm afraid of the guilt if something does. And BOY do I sympathize on having depression, but she has to take responsiibility for herself, right?
:?:
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Hi English,
Could you call a social worker in her area and ask if there's some way an agency might reach out to her? Or a church?
I am sorry. Pain is pain, and Ns do feel it too...it's also painful for Nsurvivors to feel indifferent yet that's what helps us survive.
Hops
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English,
I think that as long as she is "in her right mind" (meaning not demented or psychotic), an adult has to take responsibility for helping themselves. You cannot force her to take her pills or to figure out how to get the meds in her system. She has to deal with it like you did. We all have to decide that we are not going to roll over and let depression have us. People that have not decided to fight it with everything they've got --- well, nobody can force them to fight.
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((((English)))) How are things going?
I know the guilt you feel. Or felt. I decided to help my mom because of guilt and although I don't regret helping her, I think it was a waste of my time and kindheartedness. I was in a similar situation when my Nmom had to have gallbladder surgery on a nearly emergency basis. She cried to me on the phone that she had nobody to stand by her bedside and that she was really scared. She had no one to take her to surgery or take her home, etc. I was up for a promotion at work and had to be reviewed that week and couldn't take the time off. But what did I go and do?? I took the time off and helped my mom. I stood my her bedside and watched over her, took her home, and helped her heal for 2 days because I felt so damn guilty with her crying and in pain.
Narcissists quickly go back to the way things were when they aren't in need. My Nmom's history of calling me a "bad daughter" made me do this. My T said that subconsciously I wanted her to "see me" as a good daughter and the guilt of not helping her comes from just being a good person alltogether independent from the Narcissist; knowing what is right and what is wrong and having true compassion is a trait not inherited from the N. I did this to show her what I truly am: "a good daughter." Like I had to convince myself of this one last time.
Nmom doesn't remember the good thing I did, nor my sacrifice of getting a promotion at the time I deserved it. She never once said anything about it. In fact, one year later, she insulted me and my husband and told me I was ripping her off each time she took care of my daughter (her granddaughter), that I didn't pay her enough money for babysitting.
Good luck English. I hope you make it through this. Your NM will have to use her own life skills and wisdom to take care of herself. The compassion you feel is humane and worth acknowledging. But that's it.
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Thanks for your advice everyone. She actually solved her problem by herself without my help. She went back to the Dr. and is feeling better. Then she called me and wanted me to come over because she bought me a present. She does things like that all the time to manipulate me into seeing her. I told her I couldn't come over. I'm trying to make it to Thanksgiving without seeing her, but I have a feeling she'll guilt me (or I'll guilt myself) into seeing her before that.
I have bought three books about narcissists. Now it's time to start doing the exercises in them. I haven't done any on the pretext that I should read them first. But now it's time to start the healing process. I'm just afraid of the pain. I'll just take really small baby steps. (although babies fall down a lot, but they do get back up.) As part of my process, I've just been observing NM's behavior to see all the narcissistic traits. All her manipulations, feeling sorry for herself...I'm in the process of accepting that she is NM. That she doesn't actually love me; but she loves who she wants me to be, who she thinks I am.
I talked to her yesterday, so I won't be answering her phone calls this weekend.
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Glad to hear that English!
I need to practice the exercises myself. What books did you get? I always thought of what my Nmom would think of she came over my house to see a few books on Narcissism laying about! I'd like to try that experiment.....
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Hi Bearwithme,
I've read, but not done exercises: Karyl McBride's Will I Ever Be Good Enough, John Bradshaw's Homecoming, and Nina Brown's Children of the Self Absorbed.
I've been working on accepting that NM is an NM. I've been observing her and listening to her. It turns out that everything she says is about HER. She frequently buys me a gift; then wants me to come see her. It's blatant manipulation which I will not fall for anymore. The next step for me, and I'm getting there, is to realize that she doesn't love who I am, but her iimagination of who she wants me to be. One problem is that I can see the hurt child within her and her low self-esteem is so obvious. I know she suffered abuse as a child although to hear her tell it, it was a wonderful childhood. I feel sorry for her, but I can't be her parent. She needs to be her own parent; just as I need to be my own parent. I wish I could help her, but I wouldn't be able to get through her brick wall.
It's so sad. I do feel bad for her, but she has hurt me so much in the past (and present). I put her pain ahead of mine. I'm noticing right now that I have been trained to take care of her at MY expense. "She is more important than I am." Wow, I can't get past that. Always putting her pain ahead of mine. I feel guilt if I think of myself first. That her pain must be worse than mine, so I help her with hers while she abuses me. "I am less important than she is." My goodness this is a STRONG feeling. How do I get pass this? I am important? Me? Why do I think I am not important? If I could talk to my 9 year old self, my 12 year old self, my 18 year old self, I would tell them how important they are and that I love them. I wish I could help them through their suffering. I wish I could be there for them. I wish I could nurture them; I wish I could give them advice because they didn't know others could help them. They thought they had to figure out life on their own with no help. I remember all these times when NM ignored them.
I wish I could tell them that most things take practice, that they don't have to do things perfectly the first time. And if they don't do it well the first time that doesn't mean they're no good. NF taught us how to play chess, but only one move. Then they were expected to be good at it, and since they weren't immediately wonderful, they were failures.
They never asked questions; they never asked for help. They were supposed to know things by osmosis. And if they didn't they were dumb and failures. Ya know, even IF they were stupid and failures--"I" would love them, nurture them, support them to be the best that they can be.
For my son, all I really want for him is that he be happy. I love him how ever he is; I nurture him; I support him. I accept who he is and love him as he is. NM is upset that my son didn't finish college and rags on him about it. For me I think college would be good for him in that he might get a job he is happier with. But right now he is happy and comfortable with what he is doing now. My son has quit talking to NM. Good for him. I wish I could do that. But right now I'm limiting it to once a week.
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English,
For me, part of the point of going "low contact" with my mother was to build up other resources besides her (for myself). So, if you don't make it to your "goal" of not seeing her til Thanksgiving, well, at least you have had more of a breather from her than if you never set any goals. And in the meantime, hopefully you can build up strength to live your own life from other sources. Every day that you spend investing in other things besides making a NM "happy" (as if any N is ever really happy!), that's another day's worth of strength for yourself.
I have not gone NC, but rather LC, and have used the time to make female friends. They cry on my shoulder, and I cry on theirs, and we are all equals in this friendship business. It is really really nice. And with the cut-back on time with my mom, I have come to realize these friends are not going to suddenly slip in a cutting remark along with the jokes. That unconscious expectation of getting stabbed in the back unexpectedly is what kept me from making close female friends before, I think.
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Why do I do this to myself? I went to NM's house for the first time in a month. I was going to try to make it to Thanksgiving without seeing her. Didn't make it. i stupidly went over. She:
criticized me because the last two times she saw me I happened to be wearing a black shirt. She did this by proving she's an expert on clothing because she watches What Not to Wear all the time. I like to occassionally wear a black shirt or pants. But of course my opinion is wrong. Apparently she doesn't apply this wealth of knowledge to her own clothing.
crticized me because i wasn't ready to talk to her about my childhood. She did this by saying that my brother went through therapy and so was able to work through his childhood with her. (He is a T now) She said now they can talk about anything to each other. (I don't believe this.) She repeated her conversation with him. She told me he said that I would when I was ready. I said I would never be ready. I'm NOT about to give her MORE ammunition. I DO NOT trust her as far as I can throw an elephant.
hurt me more by bringing up a rape that happened to my 20 years ago. I have NO idea what her purpose was other than to hurt me.
I'm angry at myself for being sympathetic and taking pity on her because she hadn't seen me in a month. Why does she have such a hold over me?
It ruined my day. I'm still miserable over it. Why are her feelings more iimportant than mine? Why do I do this to myself.
I think I may be moving from GC to SG.
And she is so engulfing. She criticized my wedding ring. She said she could have one of her rings resized to fit me. I said I wanted to choose my own. She replied that she wanted me to draw what I want and she would find a way to get it for me. I said no. When I want a new one, I'll get a new one. She just doesn't get it.
And three different times she pouted and fake sniffled like a 4 year old. In a 70 year old woman-amazing!
I just want to end with I HATE HER!!!!! (Next time I think about seeing her, I'm going to reread my posts. Maybe that'll help.)
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Hi Bearwithme,
I've read, but not done exercises: Karyl McBride's Will I Ever Be Good Enough, John Bradshaw's Homecoming, and Nina Brown's Children of the Self Absorbed.
I've been working on accepting that NM is an NM. I've been observing her and listening to her. It turns out that everything she says is about HER. She frequently buys me a gift; then wants me to come see her. It's blatant manipulation which I will not fall for anymore. The next step for me, and I'm getting there, is to realize that she doesn't love who I am, but her iimagination of who she wants me to be. One problem is that I can see the hurt child within her and her low self-esteem is so obvious. I know she suffered abuse as a child although to hear her tell it, it was a wonderful childhood. I feel sorry for her, but I can't be her parent. She needs to be her own parent; just as I need to be my own parent. I wish I could help her, but I wouldn't be able to get through her brick wall.
It's so sad. I do feel bad for her, but she has hurt me so much in the past (and present). I put her pain ahead of mine. I'm noticing right now that I have been trained to take care of her at MY expense. "She is more important than I am." Wow, I can't get past that. Always putting her pain ahead of mine. I feel guilt if I think of myself first. That her pain must be worse than mine, so I help her with hers while she abuses me. "I am less important than she is." My goodness this is a STRONG feeling. How do I get pass this? I am important? Me? Why do I think I am not important? If I could talk to my 9 year old self, my 12 year old self, my 18 year old self, I would tell them how important they are and that I love them. I wish I could help them through their suffering. I wish I could be there for them. I wish I could nurture them; I wish I could give them advice because they didn't know others could help them. They thought they had to figure out life on their own with no help. I remember all these times when NM ignored them.
I wish I could tell them that most things take practice, that they don't have to do things perfectly the first time. And if they don't do it well the first time that doesn't mean they're no good. NF taught us how to play chess, but only one move. Then they were expected to be good at it, and since they weren't immediately wonderful, they were failures.
They never asked questions; they never asked for help. They were supposed to know things by osmosis. And if they didn't they were dumb and failures. Ya know, even IF they were stupid and failures--"I" would love them, nurture them, support them to be the best that they can be.
For my son, all I really want for him is that he be happy. I love him how ever he is; I nurture him; I support him. I accept who he is and love him as he is. NM is upset that my son didn't finish college and rags on him about it. For me I think college would be good for him in that he might get a job he is happier with. But right now he is happy and comfortable with what he is doing now. My son has quit talking to NM. Good for him. I wish I could do that. But right now I'm limiting it to once a week.
Dear ((English))
Your feelings about yourself and your NM could have been written by me:taking care of her, HER importance, your guilt when you have needs or wants, your pity for her, she uses your pity to abuse you more.
I understand ,English. xxoo Ami
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(((English))))
Boy those NM's are brilliant aren't they! You are in the same position as I am as you felt this "guilt" for not seeing her for so long. That is what they want you to feel. They want you to feel sorry for their lonely souls and take care of them and it works on you, you fell for it. I do to. It is very difficult to pull those reigns back and stop that wicked horse from running amok with you--back into the arms of your NM who couldn't care less. Truth is, if you didn't go over to her house, the outcome would be the same whether you waited a week, a month, or a year. My T said that their appetite to "feel" important and loved and wanted and coddled is insatiable. They will NEVER be satisfied. You can't do or love enough to fill them up, their belly remains empty forever and ever. What they need you can not give them. It's impossible. So why are we trying so hard???? I don't know!!
I think I turned a corner this week in communicating with my Nmom. She went from begging to come see her only granddaughter (my daughter) to not wanting to see her at all just because I made Thanksgiving plans that did not include her. Her original plan was to fly to where I live the first week in November because she missed the baby so much and she said she wanted to see her so badly--it would also allow my husband and I to celebrate our anniversary together and maybe go out to eat during that time. When she found out that I had plans on Thanksgiving with my cousin and her family as they wanted to come up and visit us and that would leave my Nmom with no where to go (since she usually gets invited by my cousin to have Thanksgiving at her house), she started spitting her "mean juice" and told me to forget about her trip to see us and the baby, that she wouldn't come up at all and didn't know when she could. I thought she wanted to see her granddaughter???? No. It's all about "her" needs and who is going to make "her" feel loved and wanted, who was going to inviter "her" for Thanksgiving. So she dumped her only granddaughter for her pride.
On the phone, I just replied, "Okay mom, don't come...do whatever you want, I don't care." She was silent then began to pout.
I really don't care what she does. I don't care if she sits alone on Thanksgiving and eats catfood off the floor! I'm not going to feel bad about it.
Sorry to rant English....I'm going to get those books you mentioned. Thank you.
Bear
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Hi English,
It's a very strange feeling when you say something to the Nparent that you haven't said before.
When you think it through so hard that you actually believe this is right, then you've opened the door.
Just an example:
Mom, I've decided that I'm going to be more responsible for myself. I am realizing that I feel unhappy and depressed when I listen to you criticize things about me. So I'm going to take care of myself in a new way, and that is, if you begin to criticize me about anything, I will leave, and I'll come another time.
It really shocks them. And it takes a couple times, sometimes, because their instinct is to go, Change back! (Your assurance that you will be back is further evidence that this isn't a "fight" or a "hissyfit", no matter how they respond, you're not going there...)
I actually did this with my mother. I was calm and serious and when she began to go into an area I had specifically told her I wouldn't discuss, I took control by staying calm, making my farewell brief, and politely but firmly (and immediately) leaving. She was shocked but it was in one of those moments when the "power shifted."
I wasn't getting a kick out of it or feeling any particular glee. And she sensed this, I believe. I was being mature, and taking myself seriously, and suddenly I wasn't the child any more. I was being an adult woman, and she could feel my response was coming from a new, non-helpless place.
(This wasn't magic and I didn't do it perfectly. But it really was a big step forward.)
But I have another story...once an N, always an N, even after death! (That's on another thread.)
hugs
Hops
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Dear English,
Sigh......Aren't they ALL just so alike???!!! My NM usually returns every piece of clothing we give her, or she complains we should have bought her the flowers for Mother's Day, instead of her birthday (her birthday is May 29th), or, she'll keep a gift for awhile and then give it to the person who orginally bought it for her.
When my parents 50th was looming, we decided to have a big party for them. NM suspected it and hinted that we weren't capable of inviting the "right" people. I told her it was rude of her to complain about the very people who were planning (and paying) for a celebration. She told my sister I hurt HER feelings!
Many cyber hugs to you, Judy
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Hi English,
It's a very strange feeling when you say something to the Nparent that you haven't said before.
When you think it through so hard that you actually believe this is right, then you've opened the door.
Just an example:
Mom, I've decided that I'm going to be more responsible for myself. I am realizing that I feel unhappy and depressed when I listen to you criticize things about me. So I'm going to take care of myself in a new way, and that is, if you begin to criticize me about anything, I will leave, and I'll come another time.
It really shocks them. And it takes a couple times, sometimes, because their instinct is to go, Change back! (Your assurance that you will be back is further evidence that this isn't a "fight" or a "hissyfit", no matter how they respond, you're not going there...)
I actually did this with my mother. I was calm and serious and when she began to go into an area I had specifically told her I wouldn't discuss, I took control by staying calm, making my farewell brief, and politely but firmly (and immediately) leaving. She was shocked but it was in one of those moments when the "power shifted."
I wasn't getting a kick out of it or feeling any particular glee. And she sensed this, I believe. I was being mature, and taking myself seriously, and suddenly I wasn't the child any more. I was being an adult woman, and she could feel my response was coming from a new, non-helpless place.
hugs
Hops
Thanks Hops. I'm going to do this. That's a good compromise. However, I am NOT going to see her until Thanks giving. She'll be coming to my place along with a lot of other family. What do I do if she embarrasses or criticizes me then?
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Hi English,
It's a very strange feeling when you say something to the Nparent that you haven't said before.
When you think it through so hard that you actually believe this is right, then you've opened the door.
Just an example:
Mom, I've decided that I'm going to be more responsible for myself. I am realizing that I feel unhappy and depressed when I listen to you criticize things about me. So I'm going to take care of myself in a new way, and that is, if you begin to criticize me about anything, I will leave, and I'll come another time.
It really shocks them. And it takes a couple times, sometimes, because their instinct is to go, Change back! (Your assurance that you will be back is further evidence that this isn't a "fight" or a "hissyfit", no matter how they respond, you're not going there...)
I actually did this with my mother. I was calm and serious and when she began to go into an area I had specifically told her I wouldn't discuss, I took control by staying calm, making my farewell brief, and politely but firmly (and immediately) leaving. She was shocked but it was in one of those moments when the "power shifted."
I wasn't getting a kick out of it or feeling any particular glee. And she sensed this, I believe. I was being mature, and taking myself seriously, and suddenly I wasn't the child any more. I was being an adult woman, and she could feel my response was coming from a new, non-helpless place.
hugs
Hops
Thanks Hops. I'm going to do this. That's a good compromise. However, I am NOT going to see her until Thanks giving. She'll be coming to my place along with a lot of other family. What do I do if she embarrasses or criticizes me then?
(((((((((((((((((((((((((((((((English)))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))
If NWomb-Donor gets a case of the A$$ and behaves like an obnoxious fool in my own home, I would treat her as any other unwelcome guest and tell her to leave IMMEDIATELY along with: "Don't let the door hit ya where the Good Lord split ya!" If she REFUSES to leave, claiming that you and yours are HER PROPERTY, then have the police remove the TRESPASSER because she has become a TRESPASSER! That's what I would do if I were in your situation. (I have tossed out a former friend who insisted on showing up UNINVITED!)
BTW, I would also have a LARGE sign prominently placed where NWomb-Donor couldn't POSSIBLY miss it...."MY HOUSE, MY RULES!"
Bones
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English, I've had some success, when there are other people around, of saying like you were talking to a child, "Well, that wasn't a very nice thing to say, was it?"
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Hi English,
How about this strategy:
Write her a note ahead of time that is very short and no embroidery and just says, politely:
Mom, I've decided that I'm going to be more responsible for myself. I am realizing that I feel unhappy and depressed when I listen to you criticize things about me or embarrass me in front of others. So I'm going to take care of myself in a new way, and that is, if you begin to criticize me about anything when I visit you, I will leave, and I'll come another time.
When you're in my home at Thanksgiving, I ask you to not criticize me or embarrass me in front of others. If this happens, I will ask you to leave and we will visit another time.
Part Two only works if you mean it. Even if someone else has to drive her or whatever. It is YOUR home and you have a right to be treated respectfully. And your not being angry or threatening abandonment, that's the key. You are dealing responsibly with your own needs in the present, and you are responding to what she does in the present. That's it.
If she comes another time and is courteous, then that's fine.
Sometimes, they do catch on.
luck,
Hops
It's extreme assertiveness I'm suggesting, but it actually can be done in a very calm way.
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Thank you all for your advice. I definitely need to work on the assertiveness. It takes a lot of courage. It's funny; I can be strong and courageous around others, but when it comes to NM it's harder.
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(((((English)))) Thinking of you. It IS really, really hard to deal with an NM.Most people never have to go through what we did .
xxoo Ami
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Ok, this is bizarre. I haven't heard from NM in 2 weeks. That's just unheard of. Not that I want to hear from her. I am curious though why she hasn't called. Totally strange.
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Maybe she's busy getting her N-Supply from another source.
Bones
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Being assertive might not work the way you expect.
I sent this email to my mum a little over six months ago, she couldn't stick to it. Was nasty on the phone straight away. Tried a visit, nasty again. Reminded her of these rules, but to no avail.
Hi Mum
We were all rather surprised that you didn’t want to come over and see us at Easter, especially as Fuchsia was poorly and ended up having to stay in for a week. Your not phoning to see how she is compounded that surprise.
As we seem to be having some problems communicating successfully I have devised some ground rules for us all to follow.
Firstly, I will happily speak to you when you remain – sensitive, compassionate, kind and loving. However, whilst you remain spiteful, vindictive, uncaring and self-absorbed I will need space away from you.
These good manners should be extended to all my family.
If you would like to see us, sometimes it needs to be at our house or your place depending on all our needs.
If you would like to go along with this then please phone us.
Your loving daughter
Bianca
A bit of explanation;
Fuchsia is my daughter, her only grandchild.
She was complaining that we never asked her over, but we did and she kept refusing to come.
The bit about extending good manners to my family is because she sent hate mail to my husband and to my father-in-law two months after his wife passed away.
Six months NC now, one of the best things I have ever done.
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Why do I do this to myself? NM came over for Thanksgiving along with other family. I was anxious for 2 days because I ddin't know how she would humiliate me. I keep letting her manipulate me. For one, she told people I wanted to sit next to her--that I should sit at the head of the table. I didn't want to sit anywhere near her, BUT I sat where she wanted me to sit because if I didn't, she would embarrass me by saying something or crying or some other kind of temper tantrum. Which would embarrass me to no end. So I had a choice of being very tense sitting next to her or extreme embarrassment.
I feel sooo stuck between her wants and my wants. If I do what I want, she would embarrass me. If I do what she wants, I am miserable and tense. Hmmm... a choice between embarrassment or misery. I'm miserable both ways. After this weekend (where I will have to spend more time with her--my brother's in town.), I'm going to have to set serious boundaries and tell her that I want limited contact with her. That is my only way to get unstuck I think. I'm not sure what boundaries to set.
I don't WANT to talk to her or SEE her at all......but that would lead her to embarrassing me at work and in the family. And also I would become the SC instead of borderline GC. Is embarrassment and humiliation as painful to you all? Is the pain of it normal? Am I too sensitive to humiliation?
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Dear English
What you are describing is totally typical for an NM. It is the angst of life with an NM. You are seeing it correctly. She is really THAT bad. That is what is under your dilemma, IME. I don't think you can face how bad she is.
I am just facing it now after years of moaning, crying and falling apart on the Board. You can read some of my old posts. I was a dog howling from pain. I could not believe a mother would treat a child like that.
Keep sharing, English. xxxooo Ami
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Thanks Ami,
I've decided to go LC. I'll tell her tomorrow. I just can't deal with her any longer; I am angry and hurt. I've been talking to my brother who is visiting for Thanksgiving. After talking to him, I realized how angry I am with her. I can't stand to be around her.
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((((English))))
I, too, have been where you are. It is extremely difficult to learn about N and all of its ramifications in our lives. The only way that I could cope upon my realization that my mother has been intentionally trying to ruin me since I was an infant was to go no contact. All attempts at confrontation with the NM--whether it be comments about her behavior or explanations about why I don't wish to be near her--have only served to increase her abuse toward me. I have been NC, for the most part, for about two years now. The only contact has been three horrible email messages from her and my guarded responses.
"Medium chill" responses have helped me in dealing with others as well as NM, including NF and GC siblings, etc. I've seen medium chill described here as 1) providing no personal information to Ns, 2) not reacting positively or negatively to what Ns say, 3) smile, nod but stay utterly detached emotionally, and 4) nothing rude but nothing warm either. But, for me to get to this point, I had to go NC for a long time first. My few email responses to my NM have consisted of comments on the weather and neutral news items. That's about it. Nothing of substance and nothing about me. I know that any phone conversations or visits will quickly deteriorate to abuse, attempts at control and severe criticism.
One thing I have also had to watch out for is the NMs desire to ruin me in the eyes of others. It has been my experience that this will never stop and the further I distance my self from NM in all aspects of my social life, work life, neighborhood, etc., the better off I am. I recently relocated to a new state, and I do not even tell people that I have a mother. If someone asks, I simply say she lives out of state, nothing more. I'm even considering "killing her off" in my conversations, ie. "I lost my mother several years ago." Or, "She's no longer with us."
My heart goes out to you. Please stay strong for you and love you--that is crucial.
Joy
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Thank you Joy. I'm just at the beginning of my journey and have a lot of fear and anxiety. I just realized my M was NM at the end of August, and I've been observing her closely to watch her behavior. My brother is visiting this Thanksgiving, and he has been real helpful. I realized how angry and bitter I am toward her in my conversations with him about her. It's gotten to the point when I am around her that I get tense and shut down. I only give yes or no answers to questions and never volunteer anything personal about my life. I get nothing good out of contact with her. It's all about her and making her feel good at my expense. I just can't take her any more. AAAAHHHH!!!!!!
I sure wish I had a mother. Someone who I could trust and feel safe around. Someone I could tell my problems to. Someone who would love me unconditionally. Someone who would give me helpful advice. I wish I had a mother. :(
Mother
safe
secure
loving
holding
comforting
wise
trustworthy
happy
helpful
Ok all, what are some qualities of a mother that I left off.
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Dear (((English)))
I know what that wishing is like!!!! xxxoo Ami
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OMG my NMs bday is dec 19th.... thanks for reminding me...all I can do is send a card, a bland one... thats the best I can manage. Nothing else is appropriate.
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For English:
MOTHER
kind
supportive
an ally
respectful
empathetic
understanding
encouraging
accepting
listening
guiding (w/o controlling)
sincere
honest
trustworthy
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Thanks Ales.
My NM is none of those. It's a good list. Oh well, I can wish right? I know; I'll ask Santa Claus. Should I leave him cookies and milk? What should I leave the reindeer? Cookies..mmmmm...chocolate chip of course. And real milk, not the skim that I normally buy. :lol:
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At the moment I'm struggling with the conflict of my feelings versus her feelings. I always put her feelings ahead of mine. I have to stop that. It's like welll I don't want to hurt her; she's so sensitive and fragile. I should put her needs ahead of mine. I can let her hurt me, but I cant' hurt her. Her feelings are more important. I still haven't gone LC with her. I'm afraid of the conversation. The anxiety is tremendous although I am not returning her calls. My brother said to write down what I want to say to her and just read it; stick to the script. So here goes:
Mom, I'm going through some stuff right now so I need to make some boundaries. I will only talk to you on Saturday mornings. The next time I see you will be at Christmas; after that I'll see you for my birthday (in Februrary). I'll decide after that when the next time will be. I am doing this because you hurt me every time I talk to you. (No I'm not going to say this part about getting hurt. She won't hear it, and I'm too anxious to say it. ) If you say anything critical or question me or David (my son), I will just hang up.
Boy she will have a fit. The problem is that I am imagining her crying and blubbering and feel guilty and fearful. Why do I put her ahead of me? I should be the one crying and blubbering because of her. You know there really is no point in being around her. When I am, I shut down, get tense, and am miserable just so she can get her NS from me-which isn't much because I shut down. Her NS is more important than me. I just can't get it through my head that I am more important than her NS. How do I do that? How do I get this image out of my head that I can sacrifice so she will be happy. But she can't sacrifice for me. I have GOT to break this stranglehold she has on me!! HOW do I do that? I need a mantra or something maybe. To convince myself that I am more important. But I'm not-yes I am-she is more important- no I am-I can't hurt her feelings, but she can hurt mine-I am important......
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English, I am responding only to your initial post. My NM also thinks she "knows" me. But the things she assumes about me are actually her own perceptions of situations. She will tell me she knows I am worried about something when I was not even concerned... As a child I think that influenced me a lot and made me absorb those feelings. It's a way to dominate yet again. They tell us what they think we should be experiencing.
I am glad you are seeing her with open eyes. It helps so much. I am able to see all of NMs tricks now and they rarely affect me at this point, because I know the root of each one (attention). My NM is never happy with presents, no matter how thoughtful, expensive, whatever they are. So I just get something flashy now and let it go. It's not worth the effort. I think it was very thoughtful of you to make a copy of her favorite show. If you had bought her a diamond, she would have found a flaw.
xxxooo
Beth
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Eng,
There's a theory about "Start with the underlying positive" for any time we have to confront someone or set a new boundary. So, if you feel you can address the better (buried) part of herself, maybe this would make it easier to say:
Mom, I know that you value having a lot of contact. I am working on some healthy things for myself that mean I have to set new boundaries with you and have our contact in a structured way. I will talk to you on Saturday mornings, but not at any other time of the week. I will visit you...etc. I am also taking responsibility for what is healthy for me and my family, so if you begin to criticize X or X, I will hang up immediately, and talk to you on the following Saturday...
Dunno if any of that's needed or an improvement, but it's what came to mind.
You can manage your discomfort about her discomfort. Her discomfort is her opportunity, don't take it away from her.
love,
Hops
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Thanks Hops
I will use your suggestion about what to say to her. Today's Saturday, I'll hold my breath and jump in.
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I'm with CB!!! Why should you have to announce that you're going LC? Just be a busy person ... and realize that she IS going to try to guilt you when you don't call or visit as often, be prepared inside for that.
Get a new hobby or a second job that precludes you from calling or visiting when she's used to it. Have a cold or sudden diarrhea so that you have to cut your phone calls short!
I think the feeling that you OWE her an explanation for cutting your contact with her down to a normal adult level is all part of the boundary problems ... you don't owe her the announcement that basically you are only going to contact her with the frequency that other reasonable adults contact their parents. Even if you contact her LESS than other people you know contact their parents, you don't owe her an explanation. IMO, the only time you need to explain to her is if you decide to not provide normal expectable contact, such as helping her out if she's in the hospital, or attending Christmas as usual, or if you plan to not call her at all for an extended period of time.
For awhile, my young adult son hardly ever called, and he seldom even returned our phone calls. Yes that hurt my feelings, but I also knew that it is pretty normal for a young adult to seek distance from his parents. Now he's back to returning calls promptly and even taking the initiative to call sometimes. Non-N parents get that they are no longer the center of their adult child's world. IMO, the best approach is to get an idea of what normal families do for contact between parents and adult children, and then don't exceed that level of contact even though your N mother is gonna howl like crazy.
Well, anyway that is my opinion. I agree that ANNOUNCING low contact is like waving a red flag in front of a bull. You are just asking for a scene! I don't think you owe your mom an explanation for having a life and not having time or energy to cater to her every whim.
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What THEY said.
CB and Pilgrim.
Wow. That's an eyeopener.
It sounds much much much healthier (and boundary savvy) to me to do that...to just LIVE and without overexplaining...
Jeez. Makes me realize I STILL have crappy boundaries.
Hops
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Thanks everyone. I agree it would be very unpleasant to tell her that I am going LC. She would react badly. My brother, who is a psychologist but works with addicts, said not to make her guess about the boundaries. He said to tell her straight out that I am setting boundires, not to make her guess. But he doesn't really have experience with NPD other than living with one during childhood.
I'm leaning toward not saying anything to her mostly because of the fear. Anyone else's advice would be welcome.
My main motivation about doing anything about anything is fear. I avoid as many things as possible that make me afraid. I have spent my whole life being afraid. At almost 50 I'm still suffering from those "parents" that I lived with for only 18 years. They are still controlling my life. Fear, fear, fear, fear, fear, fear. This is ridiculous. These NF and NM damaged us and they still have control over me. I hate it! I want MY life to begin. (I am NC with NF). I mean 30 years later and I'm still "living" with my parents in my head.
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Hi English
I tried LC earlier this year. I set clear boundaries, and NM went out of her way to break them. When her behaviour had less effect on me than usual she hit out at my family, including daughter, my husband and my father in law (My lovely mother in law had recently passed away)
I set new boundaries to very clearly include all of my family. She broke them again. I told her if she could keep to these boundaries I would continue to visit and phone her. She couldn't keep them. (The boundaries were essentially being polite to me and my family)
In the end I had to go no contact, to protect myself and my family.
So, in summary telling my NM about boundaries and having less contact was a spectacular failure in some ways. Looking back, it was for the best because NC works so well for all of us. I am happier and so is my husband. My daughter also decided to go NC (she is 20) She felt it was a moral decision.
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Hi Hopalong and English,
Don't take me as an expert, please, it makes me nervous :) ...
But English, I expect that what your brother meant was, if you find your MOTHER's behavior unacceptable, don't make her guess ... tell her straight out that you are not going to sit there and tolerate bad behavior. But actually, YOUR behavior (going LC) is a CONSEQUENCE of her bad behavior ... and you don't have to announce what consequences you are going to impose, you just do it. In fact, keeping the N person guessing about what you're gonna do about it probably works better than announcing what the consequences will be! Of course, nothing works really well because they seldom get that they are the problem ... but in some cases, LC as a consequence works enough to make infrequent contact bearable.
Do you know the principles of reinforcement (a la behaviorism)? Operant conditioning works on the principle that whatever behavior is reinforced is more likely to be repeated. Reinforcement can be positive (a desirable response following the behavior) or negative (the withdrawal of something unpleasant). Punishment is the opposite of reinforcement --- behavior that is punished is less likely to recur.
Ns have punished us all our lives for what the rest of the world considers desirable behavior (having a mind of our own, having a life, etc.) and reinforced us for reading their minds and doing what they want. What makes them so confusing is their inconsistency. Sometimes a behavior is reinforced and sometimes it is punished. But, in general, we are all well-trained to pay close attention and try to read their minds, and to try not to make them mad.
Well, it's time to turn the tables. To reinforce the Ns in our lives for being nice and to punish them for being ugly to us. LC or NC is punishment, about the only punishment that is meaningful to them. If you scold them or berate them, or any of the other usual punishments given to badly-behaving adults, they don't get that the punishment really is related to their behavior. They see it as evidence that we're crazy or bad. There is a fundamental disconnect in their minds between their behavior and most of the consequences of their behavior.
The interesting thing is, you don't have to be AWARE of reinforcement or punishment for it to work. SO, since LC or NC is a meaningful punishment to them, they don't have to actually realize you're doing it on purpose. After awhile, subconsciously they will get the message that every time they do X, you don't call for a long time. For relatively mild Ns, sometimes this works.
BUT, IMO, even if it doesn't work, the main point of LC or NC anyway is the sanity and peace of YOU. So you are setting a boundary and if it works to get them to make nice on Christmas or whatever, great. If it doesn't work though, that's fine. The reason you are doing it is for you anyway.
I once announced to my mom that when I shut up and don't say anything, that means I disagree with her. That drove her crazy. However, the backlash of this is that eventually when she really really wanted to provoke me, she would just keep at me and keep at me until finally my temper blew. If I had never announced the meaning of my silence, she might have assumed she was right and let it go.
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Does anyone have this problem? I'll go two weeks without talking to NM. Then I start thinking-"she's not so bad. i don't know why I have a problem with her. She's OK. " Then I see her or talk to her and it starts all over again. I want to avoid her at all costs. Is this a survival mechanism forgetting how she has treated me? Like right now I think she's been so nice and pleasant on the phone, but it's just an act that fools me every time; But she hurts me every tiime I see her.
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Dear (((English)))
I have this ALL the time! xxoo Ami
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OK, so I talked to NM yesterday on phone for the first time since my B the T talked to her. He told her she said things to deliberately hurt people. She said she didn't; that it wasn't intentional. (BS). Then she talked about how sometimes she's just joking. She gave several excuses. She said people take what she says the wrong way. She wants all of us to just point out to her when she does these things. I said that she has said that my whole life. She replied that was for telling her when she tried to manipulate us. That that was different. I answered No, I have been telling her my whole life when she says something critical or manipulative and that it IS NOT MY RESPONSIBILITY to tell her when she says hurtful things. It is hers to stop herself before she says something. She just doesn't get it. She was SO remorseful (afraid of losing her NS). Of course she "didn't mean to hurt anybody". We just interpreted it the wrong way.
IT IS NOT MY RESPONSIBILITY TO TELL HER WHEN SHE HURTS ME!! IT IS HERS TO KEEP HER MOUTH SHUT!! THIS IS THE FRIGGIN MOST RIDICULOUS THING. She sounded sooo sincere, but it was just an act. UGH!!!!!
Happy holidays and happy new year to all!
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OK, so I talked to NM yesterday on phone for the first time since my B the T talked to her. He told her she said things to deliberately hurt people. She said she didn't; that it wasn't intentional. (BS). Then she talked about how sometimes she's just joking. She gave several excuses. She said people take what she says the wrong way. She wants all of us to just point out to her when she does these things. I said that she has said that my whole life. She replied that was for telling her when she tried to manipulate us. That that was different. I answered No, I have been telling her my whole life when she says something critical or manipulative and that it IS NOT MY RESPONSIBILITY to tell her when she says hurtful things. It is hers to stop herself before she says something. She just doesn't get it. She was SO remorseful (afraid of losing her NS). Of course she "didn't mean to hurt anybody". We just interpreted it the wrong way.
IT IS NOT MY RESPONSIBILITY TO TELL HER WHEN SHE HURTS ME!! IT IS HERS TO KEEP HER MOUTH SHUT!! THIS IS THE FRIGGIN MOST RIDICULOUS THING. She sounded sooo sincere, but it was just an act. UGH!!!!!
Happy holidays and happy new year to all!
These N's just DON'T get it, no matter how many times we explain the OBVIOUS!!!!! :P
Bones
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Thanks Bones. 8)
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Thanks Bones. 8)
You're welcome, (((((((((((((((((English)))))))))))))))))))
Bones
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Might as well keep telling her anyway, English,
even if she should be capable of having enough empathy to imagine how something will hurt...
she doesn't.
And although it will not change her behavior, calmly telling her each time will give you practice in having and using your voice.
For that alone, might as well...you think?
hugs,
Hops
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Thanks Hops. Yeah, I do need practice using my voice. That's a good idea, and I can hear her response now. "Oh, thank you for telling me." No I'm sorry. She brags that people tell her when she says something wrong. Somehow that feeds her NS. She should feel ashamed and embarrassed, yet she feels pride. Weeeiiiirrrrrrddd. They're weird people. weird, weird, weird,weird.
I don't use my voice very often with anyone. And when I'm angry with someone, I act passive-aggressively. I don't tell someone something they need to know; I fail to do something someone wants me to do; I don't get angry often but when I do this is how I behave. Yup, I need to find and use my voice.
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English, in my case, those opposing thoughts duking it out in my brain are what brought me to my knees... I was very happy to learn that there is a name for it. It is called cognitive dissonance and researching it went a long way in helping me understand how and why I fell so low. If you get a chance, goggle it. It might help you understand that you are not going crazy. :)
I don't think these thoughts take hold willy nilly. I think for most, these thoughts take hold when the brain connects too many dots for it to rule out that opposing thought. There are just too many contradictions.
Best of Luck with your mother, English. I hope you find a solution that brings you peace.