Voicelessness and Emotional Survival Message Board
Voicelessness and Emotional Survival => Voicelessness and Emotional Survival Message Board => Topic started by: Lollie on September 18, 2009, 05:14:15 PM
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http://www.cnn.com/2009/POLITICS/09/18/navarrette.rudeness.narcissism/index.html
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Really interesting. Thank you for posting that.
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Thanks for posting that. As a college professor I can tell you that the level of narcissism in today's college student is high and climbing. Ten years ago students would come to my office BEFORE taking my class and ASK if they should TAKE the course because they needed to be away at National Guard drill for a week and would miss several days of class.
Today students come up to my desk the first day of class and (try to) INFORM me that they will FREQUENTLY miss class for what ever reason. They assume it is MY responsibility to see that they make up all the work they miss (no matter how much). Students used to TAKE NOTES and prepare for tests. Now they DEMAND a study guide that tells them EXACTLY what is on the test and will not read the text or worry about learning information that isn't on the guide.
Just making a "good" grade no longer satisfies them either. They need to be deemed "best" (all those trophies for everyone???). A friend who teaches at the graduate level recently told me that MOST of her formal grade appeals to the dean are from students who want an A+ rather than an A since the school went to a grading system allowing + and - grades (A+, A-, B+, B- etc).
Beware a doctor who claims to have finished at the top of his class....chances are everyone did!
http://www.csmonitor.com/2009/0324/p09s02-coop.html
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Sealynx,
I have experienced everything you wrote about college students. I have been an adjunct teacher at a couple of different colleges, and those experiences are enough to make me doubt whether I want to teach full-time. It is getting totally ridiculous. And, when you are an ACON, being blindsided by student N can be traumatizing all over again. It made me feel like I was in a war zone.
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HP,
The combined weight of cost cutting (trying to get rid of teachers with experience and better salaries) and caving in to student demands is creating a society that is quickly losing any hope of competing in the world market. And speaking of market... we need to start teaching grammar school kids how to ask the questions that will separate truth from spin and marketing. One of the most difficult things I have to overcome in my philosophy students is the idea that "truth", does not exist. Marketing constantly twists truth and appeals to the emotions in order to sell things and ideas. It makes believing certain things, fun. Unpleasant truth has no place in their world.
If someone is hurt by them, that person has "issues". If they lie about an instructor and are confronted, they just repeat their request as if it doesn't matter what they are doing to try and win. The last grade appeal I had involved a student who failed to take 3 out 4 tests and was demanding a C in the class!
The above kind of thinking means that it is impossible to confront these kids or question their beliefs. They come to college already "knowing" all they feel they need to know and the world around them is just a playground they are firmly convinced can be pushed and shoved into any shape they require. What makes things worse is that almost any belief you want to hold now has a website to back it up. You end up having to argue why your website is better than their website.
I wonder how some of the these kids pass the board exams to get into medical and other careers. I'm sure when too many fail they will also lower their standards.
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One of the most difficult things I have to overcome in my philosophy students is the idea that "truth", does not exist. Marketing constantly twists truth and appeals to the emotions in order to sell things and ideas.
I'm afraid it's far beyond marketing, isn't it?.
There is a whole ocean of thought out there which transcends religion, politics, philosophy and art that teaches either that there is no truth or there are an infinite number of truths, each one just as valid as the next.
Not only is that a recipe for unrestrained feelings of entitlement but it is custom ordered for Ns, since the sea they themselves swim in is one of twisting and distorting the truth so that down becomes up and dark becomes light.
The general devaluation of truth is chum in the water for the N sharks.
mud
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I can see a time when human behavior will be tracked, judged and 'governed' globally according by that day's average human behavior. By consulting the latest electronic gadget anyone could get a 'what's the behavior doing today' update as casually as you get a weather update now. Then act accordingly. Talk about keeping up with the Jones! Sounds crazy doesn't it?
tt
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So true!!! We have created an N paradise where right and wrong do not exist until someone finds a way to track the wrong doer and they face prison time....Isn't that what usually stops sociopaths...?
Speaking of technology, the other day I was on a website where an argument was taking place about whether a man who claimed to have Aspergers syndrome and was breaking into US government computer systems should be prosecuted. While some people said asperger folks don't know right from wrong (that is not true as I have taught two and both were quite the opposite), the main argument was that if someone with little knowledge could break into the computer then it should NOT be a crime and his intent was "just" to find out about UFO's and that shouldn't be a crime...so breaking into computer system of a country is not a crime as long as you have the right intentions!!!
One young man made the analogy of how stealing music by sharing files over the internet was not wrong until they figured out how to stop it and prosecute it because "everyone was doing it". You could make the same analogy about the Banking scandal. Everyone was doing it so they took all they could until the government showed up knowing full well that they had created a mess so big that the only short term solution was to bail them out and let them keep their huge immoral profits!!
Anyone in the US ever ask for a printed copy of your cell phone plan??? They won't give you one. The elderly are regularly fleeced by confusing phone bills and telemarketers....and as long as no one is actively arresting people .... no one stops!!!
Ladies we may be the last MORAL people in the cosmos!!! Because we grew up with such evil it sickens us while the rest of the world is enjoying every minute of entitlement they can get their hands on!!
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The idea that someone with Asperger's by definition doesn't know the difference between right and wrong is crazy. But then, there is a whole lot of craziness out there, isn't there?
I was blindsided by a narcissistic rant in a class I was teaching --- I used to observe student reactions to the lecture, and slow down and if a student looked lost, I would say, "You are looking lost --- would it help if I explained it another way?" I had never had any negative reactions to this tactic --- if the student was just zoning out, they would always just say so. "No, I understand, I was just zoning out." But whoa! When I unknowingly caught a N zoning out! I was attacked viciously. This student called names and overall just talked to me extremely disrespectfully. I don't dissociate but I do numb out and I went into numb=out mode. Then i was extremely angry. And this student then had the nerve to "worry" that I wouldn't be objective in grading her from then on out! Duh! She should have thought about that before giving vent to her narcissistic rage!
Understanding my experience with narcissism in my family has helped me understand my reactions to these incidents. My colleagues have a hard time understanding why I "let" students upset me like that. Why it takes weeks to get over an incident like that. Why it shakes me up. Well, my colleagues most likely aren't ACONs.
I have found that N can be found in the bottom academic levels and at the top. I do not have my PhD (yet --- I will have it within a year or so), and Ns at the college level think that if the teacher doesn't have the PhD, he/she is not qualified to teach them. Gag me. Whatever happened to approaching education with the attitude that everyone has something to teach you? But, with Ns, since appearance is everything, the title and letters behind a teacher's name are everything as well.
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HP,
In my case, my N mom prepared me to deal with well with verbal abuse. For 20 years I taught inner city kids and many were felons. I had to stay in close contact with campus security and the academic disciplinarian.
I still stay in REGULAR contact with our disciplinarian and was on the judicial committee for several semesters. Students like the one you describe are out of control and need to be removed from the classroom because they are disrupting the learning of their fellow students. Yelling at you is no different from any other disruption that stops the learning process.
I don't know what you guys have but normally what we do is ask for a behavioral contract. After an outburst like that I report the behavior to the disciplinarian and he requests an immediate meeting with the student. If the student doesn't show, he waits at the classroom door next class and informs them that they need to go through him to get back in class. The student is then taken away and read the behavioral code. His behavior is discussed and he is asked to sign a behavioral agreement that states he will face formal procedings if he behaves this way again. Those procedings can result in suspension or even dismissal and become part of his permanent student record. That record is frequently consulted by government agencies should he or she ever seek a job with one. I have never had a student subjected to this say another word!!!
Normally the student judicial code is printed in the catalog. I would at the very least make a copy of it and pass it out. Let them know from the get go that you encourage discusssion but will not tolerate outbursts. With the behavior going on at town hall meetings it is only a matter time before tit appears in the classroom. Ask your dean or a colleague what the disciplinary procedure is at your school and don't be afraid to use it!
We might not have willing learners but we don't need to work in fear.
It is good to remember that N students are creatures of the moment. There is nothing they hate more than having their bad behavior follow them for days weeks or a lifetime.
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Ladies we may be the last MORAL people in the cosmos!!!
Eh, I don't resemble that remark. The ladies part, not the moral part.
mud
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HeartofPilgramage wrote:
"I was blindsided by a narcissistic rant in a class I was teaching --- I used to observe student reactions to the lecture, and slow down and if a student looked lost, I would say, "You are looking lost --- would it help if I explained it another way?" I had never had any negative reactions to this tactic --- if the student was just zoning out, they would always just say so. "No, I understand, I was just zoning out." But whoa! When I unknowingly caught a N zoning out! I was attacked viciously. This student called names and overall just talked to me extremely disrespectfully. I don't dissociate but I do numb out and I went into numb=out mode. Then i was extremely angry. And this student then had the nerve to "worry" that I wouldn't be objective in grading her from then on out! Duh! She should have thought about that before giving vent to her narcissistic rage!"
I witnessed a similar scenario, several years ago, when I was taking a sociology class at a Deaf university. Finally, the professor told the student that if he continued to disrespect him AND the class, then he needed to leave! The student challenged him on that! Security was called and the N was escorted out!!! He never returned and I was so relieved!!!!! (This took place after I had a one-on-one talk with the professor, informing him that I was seriously considering dropping out of the class because I was TIRED of having class time wasted watching a continuous clash between him and the Party Animal! I was working full-time and working my butt off in his course. He understood that, as a college professor, it was his responsibility to be assertive regarding the Party Animal's obnoxious behaviors.) I'm just shaking my head at how worse things have become lately. WHAT IS THIS WORLD COMING TO?!?!?!?
Bones
P.S.
Toward the end of my working career at the Deaf educational institution, the newly-installed dean of the division I was working in ELIMINATED the honors system, (i.e. Gold, Silver, and Bronze medals for educational excellence), because, in her words, "that out-dated system MIGHT hurt someone's feelings!" (This was on the high school level. She also eliminated other SUCCESSFUL programs because SHE DIDN'T LIKE THEM!) Later, when she became the Provost at the university-level division, she started eliminating programs that SHE didn't like there, just as she did at the high school division of the same institution. When she attempted to become president of that educational institution, that was when @#$! hit the fan! (You probably saw it on the news with student protests, arrests, etc.) Eventually, she was ousted but it took until recently for most of her damage to be repaired as the university was in danger of losing its accreditation because of what she did. Looking back, I realize that she was an N-TO-THE-MAX and that emboldened other N's, at that educational institution, to start abusing subordinates more openly, which led to my decision to take an early retirement and LEAVE!
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Sorry mud!
:o
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You did the right thing bones. That is exactly why it is important to stop the behavior quickly. The good students begin to dislike you because they aren't getting the education they paid for...and unlike grammar school and high school, that money is often coming right out of their pocket.
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You did the right thing bones. That is exactly why it is important to stop the behavior quickly. The good students begin to dislike you because they aren't getting the education they paid for...and unlike grammar school and high school, that money is often coming right out of their pocket.
Thanks, Sealynx, and you are SO RIGHT! I couldn't afford to have my hard-earned money and time wasted dealing with a mess like that! I've had some well-meaning people ask me why I don't become a teacher. NOT IN THIS DAY AND AGE AFTER EXPERIENCING WHAT I DID AT THAT DEAF INSTITUTION! I don't have that kind of patience to tolerate Narcissistic BS!
Bones
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Another example or two of Narcissistic behaviors that I observed in a classroom:
When I was taking the university-level sociology class that I previously mentioned, there was this one young lady that bragged that she would NEVER have to work! :shock: I asked her to clarify her statement. She proceeded to tell me that she would simply find "Prince Charming on his white steed, marry him, and he would take care of HER FOREVER!" :shock: :? :shock: (WHAT PLANET IS SHE LIVING ON?!?!?!?) I asked her what would she do when one of the following scenarios occurs: (a) suddenly becoming widowed with YOUNG children to support, (b) hubby SUDDENLY leaving her for the greener grass on the other side of the fence, (c) suddenly needing to leave an ABUSIVE marriage...the only response I got in return was this look of UTTER RAGE directed at me for DARING to question her little fairy tale fantasy!!!!!
(This exchange was taking place before the N-Party Animal was ejected and he, then attempted to start his own bragging about how he NEVER would have to study OR work because he would ALWAYS receive SSI and SSDI at my taxpayer expense!) I pointed out to him that governments can change and a future administration could decide that he is able-bodied enough to work, given that it was ONLY HIS EARS THAT ARE DIFFERENTLY-ABLED, and CUT OFF HIS ENTITLEMENT!! That P--ed him off! N's HATE REALITY!!!!!
Bones
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Bones
It is overwhelming. This behavior has to be dealt with in the lower grades. Unfortunately, at all levels, teachers have issues with helicopter parents showing up to make sure their child's "specialness" (an extension of their ego) is respected. Rather than let the child learn good behavior from the failure of bad, they show up to insist that that their kid be given another chance to do what they were told had to be done the first time. This teaches the child that there is always a "work around" to every rule they don't like.
At the college level the parent cannot be given any personal information about a student without the student's permission. Usually by the time they find out junior hasn't been to class in weeks they are furious....with us!!! They end up following their child into the dean's office who then has to resist their demands for their "child" to be reinstated in classes he is hopelessly behind in and usually has no real interest in doing the hard work of catching up in.
Something else has changed too. Even the good students don't seem to appreciate the special attention you give to them. I loaned three books out to "good" kids last semester and allowed them to keep them over break. One was an eastern version of a BIBLE to a student who was very religious! I never saw the students or the books again! This is typical. Luckily I don't lend out books I'm too attached too, but lending has become the same thing as discarding to this generation. If its "unimportant" enough to be let out of your sight...it isn't worth being returned! I think this is a reflection of their own lack of self worth. Unfortunately, giving them your precious time and attention is also seen as a "freebie". All teachers do that, so it doesn't make their relationship to you "special."
If teacher's attention is no longer something of value, how do you motivate them? When it is seen as a teacher's job to praise you, you don't have to earn it. A BAD teacher doesn't give you attention...no matter how little you did to deserve it. This is a big change because it leaves us with nothing of value to exchange for THEIR attention. If they don't care for the subject matter...we have no bargaining chips on the table.
Perhaps the big question is what does give these people satisfaction? Most of us appreciate a challenge and learn about ourselves through challenge. These students resent being asked to "figure something out" or do anything that might suggest they have a deficit. I think we can see the answer to that in our mothers and fathers...nothing satisfies them...nothing ever will. But that won't stop them from going through life breaking rules, acting without civility and demanding specialness while leaving an endless trail of discarded books, jobs, and people in their wake.
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That is SO TRUE, Sealynx!
When I used to work in the university admissions office at the Deaf educational institution, I lost count of how MANY times parents would either call or show up at the office DEMANDING SPECIAL EXCEPTIONS for THEIR children regarding admissions criteria and requirements! (They were NOT doing their children any beneficial favors!) One managed to convince my now-former boss to give his son a second chance at being admitted as a preparatory student and it quickly became a DISASTER! The instructors swarmed to the office, shortly after this kid was admitted, and informed my boss about how this kid was throwing NARCISSISTIC TANTRUMS every time the instructor spoke to another student! This brat was academically dismissed AGAIN and his parents were told that it was THEIR SON'S responsibility to apply himself academically and NOT DEMAND THAT WE BABYSIT! Many parents either could not or would not understand that colleges and universities are NOT responsible to babysit their kids NOR undo the academic damage that accumulated during their kids' grade-school years!
Bones
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Thanks, everybody, for positive input. Sealynx, this student was astute enough to wait til class was over to go on her rant. She was still horribly inappropriate and disrespectful, but did not risk the disapproval of the rest of the class. But, I am going to put your suggestions in the "vault" for future reference --- if I end up teaching again, it's likely to happen again with someone. I actually have decided that I prefer working at the community college level, with students who have had some life experience (sometimes hard life experience) before going back to college. They are not as academically prepared for college, but quite often the attitude is much better.
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HP,
I wish the community college level were better. That is where I teach and unfortunately we are MORE likely to get the certifiable crazies! It has even been written about. Many aren't together enough to do well on entrance tests and many CC's are open admission. There are now more two year college jobs than four year.
Good luck whatever you do, just don't hesitate to contact your supervisor or even have a talk with campus security, even if the student attacked you outside of class. I have gotten attack emails form students and I always report those because I have no idea what the student looks like and don't want them coming up to me in attack mode out of the blue.
That student was essentially telling you how to run your class and making you apprehensive about speaking to them again. That is not okay. If she can't control her temper and answer a simple question with yes or no, she doesn't belong in the college environment and I would certainly not want her to be granted a degree bearing my institutions name! I think that feeling is shared by many. We want to be proud of our graduates and have employers look to us for new hires.
I think you may find that, with time, it may actually be healing to deal with these disruptive students. For once, "the power" is on your side.