Voicelessness and Emotional Survival Message Board
Voicelessness and Emotional Survival => Voicelessness and Emotional Survival Message Board => Topic started by: Ales2 on October 02, 2009, 11:08:00 PM
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Hi - I tried to write about this topic earlier today and had some trouble making my opinion coherent. This is my second try.
I have been frustrated with things I've heard/been told over the years that interfered with my discovering that my Mother is NPD and it delayed my healing/recovery. As a result, it had a profound and very harmful influence on my life.
Forgiveness - I forgave my Mother for her shortcomings (which is how I saw them at the time) after college when I went off to start my own adult life. A MISTAKE. In doing so, her controlling, verbal abuse, negativity and disrespect continued, unidentified and unresolved. I was so careful to be "good and respectful" ( I was never the type to argue or act out) that I ended up hurting myself. It was not denial. I knew there was a problem with her - but I could never identify it and solve it. More separation ( I lived 100 miles away) and individuation might have helped and since she has always hated when I pull away, had I asserted this boundary, I may have discovered the issue much sooner. Huh. Forgiveness is supposed to be for my benefit, not hers. My lesson - I think forgiveness can be inappropriately applied when a problem needs to be addressed and resolved instead. I have some bitterness around this word and I am not sure I can forgive again with something like this or without confronting first.
Patience - I keep hearing/was told "you'll meet someone, it will all work out, it will happen when you least expect it" etc regarding my love life. It never did. I am the loner Dr. McBride outlines on p. 119. Again, this was BAD ADVICE for me because it missed addressing the problem. I will admit part of it was ego - I should have just walked into a therapists office at 25 and said I want a relationship....but I guess I had been so brainwashed to think I had to accomplish something, become something, be good enough to measure up to those who had a relationship while I was constantly left out (she never cared to notice, except to set up me up for social events with two gay guys - she claims she did not know they were gay - thats even worse because she also never gave me one word of dating advice) and I kept trying but was doing all the wrong things. By the way, I never believed it will happen when you least expect it - I still dont. When I finally did have my first boyfriend, when I was almost 41 it was only because I decided I was fine as I was ..... it was self acceptance not improvement and accomplishment that brought him into my life.
I am also vulnerable to these expressions and I think they are harmful to DONMs:
Be kind to others
Give of Yourself
Be generous, give your time
Give back
Don't be offended (Ruiz's book) but very bad advice to victims of verbal abuse - it encourages denial, boundary and assertiveness issues
Honor your parents ( this is touchy one - Dad yes! Mother NO WAY!)
I do believe in the law of attraction that Wayner Dyer, Jerry and Esther Hicks, THE SECRET, all those authors talk about. But what I think they do not emphasize enough is that sometimes we are blind (and I thought I was a very self-aware person with high self esteem, btw) to the unconscious drives and underlying problems in our life. Basically, I've had an unconsicous attraction to people who cant love, respect, work and invest with me. I finally get it....
FYI - Notice anything similar - in both of these examples - I went with the advice before addressing the problem. See a pattern here?
Anyone else experience anything similar?
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Ales,
One thing I noticed about all the ideas you mentioned: These ideas are the very ones that are ABUSED by our abusers to keep us in our place. We were brought up to apply these concepts in way s that served the abuser. For example, I was always taught "forgiveness" and "turn the other cheek" and "no one can make you feel bad without your consent" and similar things, but the way these ideas played out in my life was that I was supposed to forgive all my abusers and allow them to continue abusing me, and if I disliked the way I felt as a result of that, well, that was my problem because obviously I allowed the abuse to make me feel bad.
Every single idea you brought up can be mis-applied in a similar way and twisted for the benefit of the abuser.
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RedHead Erin - You nailed it on the head. Our abusers use these - "turn the other cheek"; "let it go"; "don't be a quitter"; "life is short, you never know how much time you have with your Mother" (that one really steams me because I'm 41 now and missed out on having my own kids. I know exactly how SHORT time is!!!!) etc to keep us in our place and sadly, I've fallen for all of these. I'm trying to work with these right now, because I anticipate that in my healing and recovery these kinds of issues will come up and be used against me to keep me trapped in my old behaviors.
Actually, this inspires me to write a list of manipulation tactics (i.e these expressions) in my journal that I can use to avoid these situations in the future.....
Thanks so much for your response on this....
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Hi Ales,
I think the problem sometimes with the sort of 'do it yourself' therapy is that, as you point out, some of those things are great for fairly minor occurences or obstacles that we all need to overcome, but they don't even touch the amount of work, pain and self discovery you need to go through to come out the other side when you've been abused, especially is the abuse is the kind of 'invisible' abuse that many of us get from parents with NPD - I didn't even know what went on in our house was abuse until I was in my late twenties.
Turning the other cheek when someone pulls out in front of you and then makes a rude hand gesture is one thing, when dealing with something like NPD it's a bit like using a wooden spoon to demolish a building. I've had a lot of false starts with different kinds of things - positive thinking, emotional freedom technique, forgiveness and letting go and so on. I'm not saying they aren't useful at all, but I think they need to be used as additions to therapy, rather than as replacements. Personally, it's therapy that's really been the eye opener for me - talking to someone every week who can give me a normal, objective, healthy perspective on my situation has been a huge help. I can use the other stuff as well, but like you I feel like I've gone off down the wrong path with self help books and four hour workshops that I've attended. I've come to the conclusion there's no short cut - it's hard work, it's dirty, it hurts like hell and you have to keep ploughing through it.
I'm not in a place where I can forgive my mother yet - I'm still finding it hard to forgive myself for things that weren't even my fault. I've turned the other cheek for years and her behaviour just got worse and worse. I think it takes a lot to stand up to them and admit to yourself how bad things are at times. xx
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Hi Alesia,
We say in Greece 'whoever is out of the dance, knows a lot of songs' - hope you get the meaning! (we are full of sayings and proverbs!).
I worked with a spiritual mentor that was talking to me about compassion and forgiveness etc until she found out a few more details and then agreed that maybe at some later point (when NM dies maybe?) I will be able to fulfill this bit, but it is obviously not expected of me right now.
I have been heavily involved with new age stuff as well and the law of attraction in particular but have found in my case that I rush into interpreting these in a way that doesn't completely agree with me. And not just that: when I started going to CODA meetings and I was reading about how to put one's life in order, it said somewhere 'some of us need to get jobs below our skills to start earning some money until we are full on our feet and claim what we deserve'. I took it literally and started looking for jobs below my skills, accepted one and was full of regret for over 4 years.
The same applies to some of the principles you mention towards the end of your message: for instance for a codependent 'be good to others' does not apply because this is what the codependent does. In our first year in CODA we had to be a little selfish to be able to strike the balance.
I guess it is not a 'one fits all' theory/theories: and just because someone says you that we need to be a certain way, doesn't mean it applies to us as individuals.
My two cents of wisdom is to try the various theories and see what works for you and apply it/adopt it. I know it sounds very N, but if I have been a certain way for years and saw that I have been stepped on, I don't think it's wise to continue 'being good to others, indiscriminately regardless of how they have treated me.
Sorry for the aggressive/assertive response, I am just a bit fired up today!
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Hi - I tried to write about this topic earlier today and had some trouble making my opinion coherent. This is my second try.
I have been frustrated with things I've heard/been told over the years that interfered with my discovering that my Mother is NPD and it delayed my healing/recovery. As a result, it had a profound and very harmful influence on my life.
Forgiveness - I forgave my Mother for her shortcomings (which is how I saw them at the time) after college when I went off to start my own adult life. A MISTAKE. In doing so, her controlling, verbal abuse, negativity and disrespect continued, unidentified and unresolved. I was so careful to be "good and respectful" ( I was never the type to argue or act out) that I ended up hurting myself. It was not denial. I knew there was a problem with her - but I could never identify it and solve it. More separation ( I lived 100 miles away) and individuation might have helped and since she has always hated when I pull away, had I asserted this boundary, I may have discovered the issue much sooner. Huh. Forgiveness is supposed to be for my benefit, not hers. My lesson - I think forgiveness can be inappropriately applied when a problem needs to be addressed and resolved instead. I have some bitterness around this word and I am not sure I can forgive again with something like this or without confronting first.
Patience - I keep hearing/was told "you'll meet someone, it will all work out, it will happen when you least expect it" etc regarding my love life. It never did. I am the loner Dr. McBride outlines on p. 119. Again, this was BAD ADVICE for me because it missed addressing the problem. I will admit part of it was ego - I should have just walked into a therapists office at 25 and said I want a relationship....but I guess I had been so brainwashed to think I had to accomplish something, become something, be good enough to measure up to those who had a relationship while I was constantly left out (she never cared to notice, except to set up me up for social events with two gay guys - she claims she did not know they were gay - thats even worse because she also never gave me one word of dating advice) and I kept trying but was doing all the wrong things. By the way, I never believed it will happen when you least expect it - I still dont. When I finally did have my first boyfriend, when I was almost 41 it was only because I decided I was fine as I was ..... it was self acceptance not improvement and accomplishment that brought him into my life.
I am also vulnerable to these expressions and I think they are harmful to DONMs:
Be kind to others
Give of Yourself
Be generous, give your time
Give back
Don't be offended (Ruiz's book) but very bad advice to victims of verbal abuse - it encourages denial, boundary and assertiveness issues
Honor your parents ( this is touchy one - Dad yes! Mother NO WAY!)
I do believe in the law of attraction that Wayner Dyer, Jerry and Esther Hicks, THE SECRET, all those authors talk about. But what I think they do not emphasize enough is that sometimes we are blind (and I thought I was a very self-aware person with high self esteem, btw) to the unconscious drives and underlying problems in our life. Basically, I've had an unconsicous attraction to people who cant love, respect, work and invest with me. I finally get it....
FYI - Notice anything similar - in both of these examples - I went with the advice before addressing the problem. See a pattern here?
Anyone else experience anything similar?
I am blown away by your insight . Too bad you could not have trusted yourself more. Our problem is that the NM erodes our trust and we are set up to be hurt .
I have been hurt with therapy. I took the therapists ideas like a good girl and got more and more away from my body, center, core, gut and inner strength and became sicker and sicker.
Ales, trust yourself, practice, practice. If anyone tells you anything that does not fit your inner "knower", reject it.I hate those platitudes ,too. Usually the people who say them are lost to themselves or they would not say them
I was so enlightened by your post. Thank you so much! Ami
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Before I can use any of these sorts of things to my benefit, I find I first have to get a grip on my boundaries.
When I'm snug and strong in myself, then I can OBSERVE what other people do in my orbit, vs. REACT.
Once (and it sure doesn't happen all the time), but once...I observe, then I remember to NOT TAKE IT PERSONALLY BECAUSE IT IS NOT ABOUT "ME".
"Me" (ideally) is tucked securely within me where no one can tear "me" down. Not without my permission and I ain't giving it any more.
So...when I remember to not take it personally, then I'm safe.
love
Hops
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I think Erin brings up a great point. These concepts are the ones used against us so we need to be very careful with them. I also disagree with many of the ways in which these ideas are marketed.
The great Mystic and Healer from the 30's, Edgar Cayce, preached a good bit of this. He also said that none of this was intended to make you a doormat for someone's abuse.
Forgiveness is a good concept, but I think those who sell it as the key to some positive outcome or major behavioral change are selling a bill of goods. Forgiveness does not control others and in most cases it is wrong to link it to an expected outcome. To me the intention of forgiveness works best when linked to the Buddhist concept of acceptance. In other words, I forgive you because I accept what is and acknowledge that I can't change you.
That kind of forgiveness allows me to walk away in peace. It allows me to make a decision based on what is best for me in terms of what is, not how I would like it to be. That can mean no contact. From a spiritual perspective, allowing someone who is too sick to stop abusing me to continue is like encouraging them to slowly destroy their soul. I have every spiritual reason to the avoid the person.
When it comes to relationships and Patience I think it helps to consider what books like "The Secret" and other energy attraction books leave out. One of the best books I ever read on "manifesting" something is Laura Day's "The Circle: How the Power of a Single Wish can Change your Life." What she admits, that so few have said, is that the first step in manifesting is often coming face to face with the reason why you can't have something or someone.
In other words, if you make a wish for a relationship, the first step in getting one will not be Mr. Right showing up at the door. It will often be an unfortunate incident, a realization about yourself or your ideas of love that needs to be dealt with. Whatever it is, you are being shown "Step one". You've asked to find a mate so the universe is complying by showing you the path. This can include seeking therapy.
I can totally relate to being Dr. McBride's "loner". I've had relationships, but they were many years ago. When I think about it now, I feel that I am at least fairly certain of why I don't have one and not at all sure if I will ever want one again.
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Sealynx,
You are an extremely wise woman and I like you very much and I am so glad you are here.
Hops
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Sealynx,
From a spiritual perspective, allowing someone who is too sick to stop abusing me to continue is like encouraging them to slowly destroy their soul. I have every spiritual reason to the avoid the person.
I'm trying to mine this nugget for all its value.
tt
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Glad to be of service!
S
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Hi All,
It has just ocurred to me that I am unclear as to what qualifies a concept as 'new age'. Are there specifics? Any ideas?
tt
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I would define it as concepts that came about with the advent of Quantum Physics or were then reinterpreted in light of this. To me this would be anything related to the idea that we are all part of one giant energy field that could be interpreted as God. So whatever one of us does or thinks affects the entire field. This is the idea behind creating things with thoughts and that we are our thoughts.
Many ideas and theories can be taken from this such as the example below:
If the sum of world thought and feeling is more toward peace and happiness then more of that energy may be created because the dominant thought is that we are safe. When discord and fear are the dominant thought patterns, we tend to feel less safe and more defensive. So there is a kind of emotional background noise that always exists because we are really just one limitless energy, but a feeling energy that can be at odds with itself.
By the same token. If I give off happiness I will be more likely to attract it.
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Sealynx, I agree totally with what you said, especially this ...
"To me the intention of forgiveness works best when linked to the Buddhist concept of acceptance. In other words, I forgive you because I accept what is and acknowledge that I can't change you."
I think it is a distortion of the Christian concept of forgiveness (I can't speak for other viewpoints, 'cause I'm a Christian) to say that forgiveness means you have an obligation to get back into relationship with someone. I think the Christian concept of forgiveness is something like "I give up my right to hurt you back." And, the healing of forgiveness is really geared toward the one doing the forgiving, not toward the one that has done wrong.
Now, sometimes we will both forgive and go on in relationship with somebody who has done us wrong, but that is when they understand what they have done, are sorry, and don't go on hurting us in the same manner over and over.
I think forgiveness costs us something, therefore someone can't demand that somebody else forgive them, and I don't think it's ever easy ... and that's why everybody on this board has to work through the pain that somebody else has caused before we can come to the point of "accepting what is and acknowledging we can't change [the other person]."
You guys are all awesome!
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Another thing I was thinking of, was how I have known some people who would not legally divorce someone who had "unofficially" left them for someone else --- because "the Bible says God hates divorce." Also, men who figuratively (or maybe, sometimes literally) beat their wives over the head with "the Bible says for wives to submit." Well, IMO (and a lot of other people's opinions!) that is NOT what the Bible means even if they are quoting the words. I think that when somebody who is abusive quotes the Bible (or the Koran or whatever) you have to question whether the original writers really meant it the way its being quoted. These religions could not have been so embraced and accepted by so many people if all they were, were excuses to keep people in bondage. The same thing for the "new age" stuff, although I don't know much about it.
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Yes HP,
Quite a few different "spins" can be put on any philosophy. We see that every night on the news. Fox and CNN supposedly both report the news, but somehow it comes out very differently! Religious interpretation is not different.
I am reminded of a Hispanic single parent family with two boys I briefly worked with while in Social Work graduate school. In some Hispanic cultures, mistresses are accepted and frequently they and their children are supported by the rich men that they see. It does not matter that these countries are very Catholic because culture is king.
The mother of these two very sweet children was the mistress of a wealthy man who "found Jesus". Amazingly this discovery led to his refusal to support or even see his children, leaving them suddenly destitute!
He walked around professing his love of Jesus while his children and their mother starved. She struggled to find work in a world that wanted to see at least a high school diploma and English proficiency while he pranced around spouting goodness and light. I'm quite sure that his "religious" conversion had more to do with getting tired of the woman, who was now getting older and gaining a few pounds, than anything Jesus said! He should have at the very least helped her to get a job and/or an education.
I have seen this theme of "using" spiritual doctrine, Christian, New Age or other, played out on numerous boards. The bottom line seems to be that people are who they are and anything a selfish, mean or spiteful person touches is bleached of its goodness and perverted.
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Sealynx,
Dang! You’re making me wade deep! Should have told you I’m a troglodyte!
Uhmmm…could it be that for convenience sake, most any clever practitioner could create a mystical ‘quantum physics portal’ as a tool for thrivival?
I know it’s true that I am what I think in my heart. However, in my mind, the question I meet coming and going is, am I what someone else thinks in their heart? Some days here on the board I argue that I am. Today I argue that I'm not. Go figure!!!
tt
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Hi TT,
You're good enough.
I'm good enough.
Almost everyone I know is good enough.
The rest feels like an opportunity to act and act differently, and see how that feels.
All within good enough.
There are bad people too, those who take pleasure in abusing power or causing pain.
xo
Hops
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TT,
My take is that everyone is perfect in every moment, even if we don't like what they are doing. They are who they need to be and we need to reach inside of ourselves to find our path with, through or around them. It's all learning and the answers are always within your infinite wonderful self.
S
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Hops,
I value your encouragement.
I agree. We're good enough 8).
tt
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Good thread!!! :D Me like!!
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Sealnyx - You have a lot of good thoughts about buddhism/acceptance; forgiveness (i.e. accepting what it is); the relationship request showing you step 1 - this one is very true! I recently experienced this one myself.
My question to myself this morning was about respect. If I'm not getting the respect I think I deserve, I must not be giving it (I think I do- I return all calls and emails, I'm polite, I don't waste peoples time, I'm genuinely nice) - or I have accepted so little respect in the past thats why I keep attracting a low level of respect.
If I take the psych approach, you see your T, figure out why you accept less respect than you deserve (my NM never thought I was worthy of certain levels of respect, she disrespects me; never supported me when I was disrespected, she also disrespects my judgement/feelings when I'm being disrespected!!! I bought into her garbage, I established a low level through my thoughts, actions, words, did not confront those when I got less respect than I deserve) then you figure out the patterns and work on breaking them, if your self esteem can handle it - sometimes not. You may lose people that wont treat you with the respect you deserve and wont allow you to alter that part of a relationship that functions to their liking, not yours. This is very frequently a work/boss or a family issue - its also the reason to stress having strong boundaries from the beginning, respect, like trust is hard to rebuild.
If you take the new age approach - they'll ask you if you know its true, are you taking it too personally, where are you not being respectful in return etc. I think they focus more on changing your overall perception and with things like accepting what is, being grateful, appreciative of the lesson - all of that stuff and I think for DONMs it leads us farther away from a solution to the problem - which for many of us, is rebuilding self esteem and self respect. Also, as DONMs anything that tries to get us away from your true feelings is to be avoided, since many of us had our feelings invalidated in the past,,, this is hugely true for me anyway.
Anyway, these are my thoughts for the moment....
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Dear Ales
I think as our relationship to ourselves change i.e we can love ourselves God Willing, many things will fall in to place. I think I did not demand respect cuz I believed what my M said was true----I was BAD and worthless.
I see you getting there, friend, to your place of self respect. Keep asking, sharing and going ! xxooo Ami