Voicelessness and Emotional Survival Message Board
Voicelessness and Emotional Survival => Voicelessness and Emotional Survival Message Board => Topic started by: Redhead Erin on October 14, 2009, 06:17:44 AM
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I am so angry and hurt and sad tonight I don't even know where to begin.
I love my husband dearly. He is essentially a good man and a good father. There is no question about that.
Things get better and worse with us by turns. We have done counseling a few times. Sometimes it seems to help.
He stopped really wanting to have sex with me when I got pregnant. Nine years ago. Ever since then, it has been a struggle to have sex more than once a week or so. I know we are busy and we work opposite shifts, but I don't feel in my heart that this is really the issue. He says he is too tired, but really, I dont buy that either. I know there is something else going on, but I don't know what. He won't talk about it and resorts to yelling and blaming me for being a nag. Of course sometimes I do nag, but I'm pretty sure that isn't the real reason either. I don't think he knows the reason.
I had thought that if I lost all this weight, he would be more interested in me. Now I am struggling not to backslide, and I am so disappointed because it does not seem to make any difference whatsoever. Such a huge disappointment. I worked so hard, and for what? I don't make any more money, I have lost a lot of my regulars, and my husband is just as disinterested in me as ever. I tried to bring it up to him this weekend, only to be told that --brace yourself--I should take a lover so that I could be satisfied without bothering him.
:cry: :cry: :cry:
This is what it feels like to me: It makes me feel horrible inside. I feel ugly, undesirable, unlovable. Worse, I feel disposable. I cant believe he would rather have me take a lover than exert a little effort to make me happy. Do I really mean that little to him? I feel like dirt. SO ugly. so useless. I feel like garbage. literally, like something tossed out on the curb to be taken away. How can he say that?
Its bad enough he doesn't find me all that exciting. That itself hurts like hell. He has made it known before that sex with me is just too much work and most of the time he would rather take care of things alone. OK, that hurt. it was a real slap in the face. But this is so much worse. He has also told me that he wanted me more when I was with somebody else, and now that we are together, he probably will never have that same spark of desire again. Ouch. But for god sake, is it too much to ask for sex a couple of times a week? Am I that grotesque in his eyes that he would send me away? What did I do? Do I ask for too much?
I know I am incoherent right now because I am crying so hard. My thoughts keep going round and round in my head, and its difficult to get them out. I just cannot express how awful I feel now.
Needless to say, this is not what I expected of a marriage. I wanted to be treasured and cherished, held close and protected. I feel discarded and rejected, small and unimportant. I would never dream of saying anything like that to him. If he told me he was unhappy, I would want to know why. I would want to know how to make things better. I would never tell him to go find somebody else. I feel so rejected.
I have treid talking to him, but it always ends in tears and an argument. I don't know why this is or how to stop it. I do know I cannot make him hear me in any meaningful way. He just gets defensive and yells at me, belittles my feelings, and in short makes me feel like garbage all over again. I don't know what to do.
BTW--This is NOT about my job. I have had other jobs, but the issue remains.
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Erin,
Sex is really pretty weird. It’s like money, it hardly ever means what we try to say it means--it always means so much more.
Sex is really about physical desire and how that is stirred up is so individual and unique. There can be a lot of things hampering your husband’s desire for you--from actual physical problems, to fears, to feeling inadequate, to misconceptions about aging. Notice all those are about him, not you. But if he gets pushed, he will say its about you.
I have never read that you had other problems with your husband and you say that he is a good husband and a good father and you love him. So, doesn’t sound like he’s a creep. That’s good.
But telling you to find another lover and leave him alone is creepy. If he’s not usually a creep, there is something big going on. Telling you to find another lover is the ultimate demand for space, for distance.
Women want to talk about problems, men are typically not as excited about that. Some men are very, very threatened. If they are already feeling less-than, they will come out swinging. I have never found that talking about sex has helped a relationship a whole lot, advice columns not withstanding. If someone wants space, giving it to them will help--at least while you figure out what else is going on.
Believe it or not, neither men nor women say what they really think, what they really want. Most times, we are as confused as anyone about the solution to the problem at hand. I don’t believe when he says he wants you to find a lover that he really means it. I don’t know if you can do this, but if you can NOT cry and look him in the eye and say “don’t be ridiculous” and refuse to even take the suggestion seriously, it would be helpful. To you and to him, since that was such a stupid suggestion and he probably already can’t believe he made it.
Back to sex and money--both are, more times than not, representative of power in a relationship. Shouldn’t be that way, because neither one is much fun after things degenerate to that point. If you can sit still with yourself and see if that has happened in your relationship--and see where--and see how to release it, that will help both of you. And if you can keep from talking to him about it, just journal, write here, think long and hard--that would be better.
Bottom-line, sex is supposed to be fun. It’s supposed to be a interlude away from all the other pressures in life--not one more pressure. When you guys start struggling over it, its already not much fun--for either of you. So, I would back WAY back from the actual struggle and give this incredible pain a chance to simmer a bit and see what comes to the top.
See if you can tell why it would make you backslide and gain weight--did you lose the weight for him, to be sexy to him? Can you grow to a place where the weight loss is for you? Can you look at why he thinks you are nagging him? (to be realistic, it doesn’t mean you are. But maybe you are, and maybe that’s part of the power play.) Can you sit quietly and let all the thoughts and fears about lack of sex is bringing up in you? Not what it means to him, but to you.
Hang in there, Erin. This really can work out.
CB
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Dear Erin
My intuition is that HE is going through something within himself.It could be emotional or physical. I agree with CB that it is not about your attractiveness or maybe even you, per se.
Perhaps,after your shock and pain with his suggestion, you can go deeper with him , as a friend, and find out what is bothering him.
'You had a lot of courage to share that. I admire your courage! xxxooo Ami
PS He does not sound like a creep ,to me, either.
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Hi Erin,
I am really sorry you're going through this. 9 years is a lot of time to have to go through sexual problems in a marriage.
I am pretty sure it has nothing to do with your attractiveness - it rarely does.
Have you had sex related counselling? I think that sexual refusal is the disguise of a number of personal issues.
I think maybe, like the others said, try to talk with him and see what is on his mind.
I am sorry I have not had much experience in the subject but am sending you good thoughts and hope you will work things through.
P.
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Hi Erin,
CB123 makes some very good points about this not being about you. Take a deep breath and accept that there is nothing you can do about YOU that will change him. There are so many things that could be going on here and it sounds like they are all locked away in his head.
This comment is interesting.
"He stopped really wanting to have sex with me when I got pregnant. Nine years ago. Ever since then, it has been a struggle to have sex more than once a week or so......"
Let's think for a moment about what could be wrong with HIM:
How long after your marriage did you become pregnant? Was your sex life "wild and crazy fun" before you had a child, or did his interest decline not long after you were married?? Was his fantasy mainly about winning you or having you all to his own?
Could he be having issues with homosexual feelings that he is no longer able to bury. Sometimes gay men will manage to date women and even father children but the feeling just isn't as strong as their dominant sexual orientation. They can become basically asexual rather than deal with their feelings. If they have a great deal of shame about their orientation it is easier for them to have their partner leave them or find another lover than to admit their real feelings. Many gay and bi-sexual men are not effeminate.
Does he have any physical issues with erection?
How does he spend his free time? What interests him? Does he seem depressed or happy with his life beyond your sexual issues?
There are so many things that could be going on in his head and he is the only one who knows what they are.
The key to this is in his being honest not in your trying harder to make yourself fit the "image of his desire" when he refuses to even give a hint as to what that is.
Will he agree to couple's therapy? I again have to agree with CB Erin. It is all about him.
Whatever his issues are, letting it upset you to this extent will not help. If he will not seek therapy and this continues you will need to make some decisions about how to meet your needs.
As much as I know you don't want this, open marriages do work for some people. I had a neighbor who remained married to a sea captain until he died in bed beside her at the age of 80. They both decided early in their marriage that his travel schedule, which included long months at sea, didn't work for either of them sexually and they agreed to meet their basic needs with other partners without disrupting the marriage.
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Thanks you guys. :D
We have gone through similar stuff before and I agree, all the signs are there that this is something about him. He does this periodically, gets snipy and mean for no apparent reason. And no, he is not really a creep. Just has some weird ideas.
I am thinking back over the stuff we have said to each other lately. I know he is feeling put-upon with a lot of outside pressures. (Like I am not.) I really see you point about the demand for space, CB.
I also know something about his upbringing and his mother. She pretty much groomed him to be a loser and a quitter. So I think what is going through his mind is, "I cannot make this woman happy, so I might as well not try." I think he is feeling overwhelmed in other areas of his life, and this is just too much. In his mind, he believes he has made a generous offer to allow me to follow my bliss. :roll:
As to how this is related to my diet and my weight, that much is easy. I hate dieting. It is a lot of work, even for me, who loves cooking and such. It gets to be a big pain to always deny myself the foods I like. I also eat for emotional reasons (comfort) and it is really very tough to avoid doing that. Some people have seen my posts about how my evil bitch of a NM used to make me go on diets and then sabotage me when I got near my goal weight. So all that history coupled with the current turmoil in my life and the knowledge that two of the things I most wanted--to make more money and to be more attractive to my husband--have totally flopped. I have even lost a lot of my regular customers to the "fat girls" who look like I did a year ago. So right as of this moment, I am completely unmotivated to continue denying myself my favorite foods and the emotional comfort I derive form them. It sucks.
Thanks for being here for me, you guys. I am going to give all this a lot of thought. I am so glad I met all of you, and that you are so nice and generous with your time and thoughts. 8) Catch you all later!
ETA: Sealynx, your post came in while I was typing. Funny, I was thinking about you as it was happening!
Ted and I have a long and weird history. We met in High school and were always best of friends. We were each married to someone else at one time. The first I knew that he was interested in anything more, was when I told him I was engaged a second time, and he told me he didn't want to see me any more because he was in love with me, an seeing me with somebody else was just too painful. Well, my fiance died of Cancer, at around the same time Ted's first wife left him. We started hanging out more and of course turned to each other for comfort. Sex was heaps of fun back then, since we were both single and had no obligations besides working enough to pay the bills. OF course, I was not really emotionally available at the time. Rick died in August and I was pregnant 11 months later. We had been discussing marriage, in fact he had put a deposit on a ring, but as it worked out we did not get married until our son was nearly two.
Life has been a big roller coaster ever since. We have tried therapy a couple of times. It seems to help with some surface issues, but not with deeper stuff. This last time, the therapist was either unqualified or just a dolt, and I gave up.
The homosexual issue is one that I had not considered. Wow. Please god, please don't let it be that.
I considered the open marriage a couple of times. I have concluded that it is just not for me. I have been passed around enough. I don't want to be shared. It is absolutely not what I want in a marriage. I would rather get divorced.
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Hi Erin,
So you did not get married until your son was nearly two and he stopped wanting sex after the pregnancy? I want to put a totally rhetorical question to you. I'm not asking for an answer here, just something to think about. That would mean that you married when sex was declining. Was the marriage perhaps a way of trying to keep that relationship alive for one or both of you? Could it have been more about living up to the responsibilities of parenthood than sexual bliss on his part? Some people just aren't capable of long term desire for a partner (no matter who it is). Could you accept that this may be true of him? If it is what would you do?
"So all that history coupled with the current turmoil in my life and the knowledge that two of the things I most wanted--to make more money and to be more attractive to my husband--have totally flopped."
I think many of us raised by N's are led to believe that we can and should work to make people happy and that it can be done. Our N's demand ceaseless effort so they endow us with the title of "Possible, but not yet, ruler of the Universe". While seeking that elusive title we can take on full responsibility for many things that need to be shared goals and assume that a reward "should" be waiting for our efforts. When the expected results don't materialize, I know I can feel not only the current let down but a ripple effect of worthless feelings that go all the way back to childhood.
He doesn't appear to have offered any rewards for your weight-loss campaign. Was it something you decided to try to change his desire level without his support? It might help if you accepted the sacrifices you made as not having anything to do with him. You may want to sit with that idea for a moment and really feel what it means, even if it means "giving up trying to change him".
It may be easier to constantly judge your efforts (as our mother's judged us) then to sit with the possibility of total lack of control over the feelings of another person. I feel like staying upset with our efforts allows us to avoid the reality of the situation. If the weight loss campaign was your idea, then how can he possibly have let you down or rejected you? If it was not what he wanted or needed to fix things then nothing has changed for him.
The feeling of failure is coming from your own expectations at attempting what could be an impossible mission. They don't have anything to with his intentions. By not responding to your physical changes he is only reinforcing that whatever was wrong with his sexual desire is still wrong. Thinking about it this way may not make you feel better, but it could help you to feel bad about the right things. I know that doesn't sound better but the path to making a decision at some point is in my opinion connected to your needs and not your attempts to alter his needs. Accepting helplessness over the feelings of others can be the first step.
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Sealynx,
Reading what you wrote made me sad. Of course you are right. I have been trying to lose weight for a long time. I have lost maybe 50 pounds from what I weighed before I got pregnant. He liked me thin and he liked me heavy. Looking back, my weight really does not seem to have as much to do with anything as I had thought.
I started trying to lose weight because I was sick of what I was seeing in the mirror. I was sick of rude customer comments. I do amateur pin-up modeling and I was sick of looking at the pictures and hating them. I also hoped that looking better would help me make more money by appealing to a wider customer base. And yes, I thought that if I looked better, Ted would become as interested in me as he was before I had my son. I never stopped to consider that I weighed probably more than 200 pounds on the day I got pregnant. I just assumed that thinner is sexier and that by losing weight once and for all, my life would be so much better. *sigh*
I have no idea why he even wanted to marry me, or why I married him. We were fighting horribly the whole summer before the wedding. In fact, I almost didn't didn't do it at all. I remember we had planned this beautiful ceremony and when it really happened, I was so terrified that I was shaking. He kept telling me everything was going to work out fine, and I just made myself believe that. Our first-dance song was "patience" by guns'n'roses. That pretty much says it all right there.
What would I do if it turns out that he has the sexual attention span of a fruit fly? Wow. THat is as bad as asking, what would I do if it turned out he was gay. I can't imagine.
Frankly, it never occured to me that this might be the case. Yes, as SuperErin the SuperStripper, (cue superman music here:dah-dah, da-da-dahhhh!) I have been under the impression that I do indeed have control over other peoples' desires. I use a variety of sales skills, flirting, and persuasion techniques to make sales. It works great in the short term, but it is exhausting to keep up. I can't do it in my real life, and I wouldn't try. Honestly, I am good for about 6 hours with breaks, then I need to quit. I can't run my marriage like that. Coupled with the shit that has been fed into me since I was a child (you are so desirable I can't help but do these things to you, I can't help myself, you make me do this, and other assorted sewage), my work life has twisted me perception of what really is possible in my marriage.
I don't know if this makes sense, but let me try...Because I do, in fact, control people's short-term desires at work (all sales people do, at least the good ones) and because I was told as a child that I have an inordinate amount of control over other peoples desires as a way to absolve the abusers of guilt, I have come to believe that I can keep up this sort of thing long term, in a real relationship. Sort of dumb, huh?
YOu all have really given me a lot to think about. IT's true, sex really doesn't mean what it seems like it should mean or even what I want it to mean. Nothing is as it seems, I guess.
I feel like I have stepped into a Salvador Dali painting, and all the familair things are warped and unexpected. I am not very happy right now.
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Hi Erin,
I don't know if this makes sense, but let me try...Because I do, in fact, control people's short-term desires at work (all sales people do, at least the good ones) and because I was told as a child that I have an inordinate amount of control over other peoples desires as a way to absolve the abusers of guilt, I have come to believe that I can keep up this sort of thing long term, in a real relationship. Sort of dumb, huh?
You weren't dumb at the beginning of this post and you certainly aren't now! I'm glad you did the weightloss thing for you as well as Ted. I'm sorry I made you sad, but glad you spent a bit of time thinking about that sales aspect of you, where it might have come from and what its limitations are. Maybe those thoughts will bring you some important insights about how to work through this problem. I really believe that we have all the answers if we just ask ourselves the right questions.
I have no idea why he even wanted to marry me, or why I married him. We were fighting horribly the whole summer before the wedding. In fact, I almost didn't didn't do it at all. I remember we had planned this beautiful ceremony and when it really happened, I was so terrified that I was shaking. He kept telling me everything was going to work out fine, and I just made myself believe that. Our first-dance song was "patience" by guns'n'roses. That pretty much says it all right there.
From your picture and what you have said, the reason he married you was because you are a beautiful woman and he appreciated your friendship. If I had just said what you said about not knowing why I married him, I might sit down and do a list of all the fears I had back then and ask myself how many of them have manifested, how many were about me and how many were about him. In other words was the picture you had of your marriage accurate, if not what is different? If it is accurate, what caused you to go against your own feelings? your intuition must be pretty good because you knew I was typing up above.
I think asking some of these questions could be of value to you, not only in your marriage, but on a personal level. This could be the universe's way to help you deal with those issues of abuse, attractiveness and self worth. Everything happens for a reason. If sexuality is important to you then the universe will probably use it to get your attention. Hopefully you have a therpist that you can bounce some of your perceptions that result off of.
I wish you the love you so richly deserve.
S
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Sex was heaps of fun back then, since we were both single and had no obligations besides working enough to pay the bills. OF course, I was not really emotionally available at the time. Rick died in August and I was pregnant 11 months later. We had been discussing marriage, in fact he had put a deposit on a ring, but as it worked out we did not get married until our son was nearly two.
Erin,
I caught the sequence of events here--your husband lost interest in sex when you got pregnant? Which was pretty quickly after you were together? And were arguing a lot before you got married?
I wonder if this is a bit of a loss of control issue. Things escalated kinda fast--maybe faster than either of you were ready for. Parenthood before marriage is a rough way to go.
I still think that not talking about it for a bit to let all the feelings simmer down a bit is a good idea. It seems to me, though, that loss of control is easier to work through than some of the other possibilities that have been brought up. And its not a small thing--I have found that for me the biggest damper on my sexuality is feeling powerless and out of control.
Keep letting things float to the surface. Nice and easy.
CB
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This is my marriage:
(http://z.hubpages.com/u/209782_f520.jpg)
(Don't worry, Dr. G. It's public domain. )
Really. My husband has got to be the most literal-minded person I ever met. He could not grasp an abstract thought if it had a handle.
I made a comment today which lead to my admitting I was still hurt over the suggestion that I take a lover. The man is totally incapable of understanding why this bothers me. He sees it as a totally practical solution to a simple problem.
What I meant:
me: Honey, I am feeling really neglected and very undesirable. I feel like something is really wrong with me and maybe our marriage. I need you to pay more attention to me and I want to have sex more than every week to ten days. I feel very lonely and alone.
What I heard:
Him: Frankly my dear, I don't give a damn. You think you have problems, well I have problems too. You want sex more often, then go find a boyfriend on the side. I have better things to do than worry about than whether you feel lonely, like sleeping and painting my war-game figures. Now go away and let me get some sleep.
What he heard:
Me: Honey, I need some stuff done around here. I am really not getting enough sex and the roof is leaking.
Him: Well, I don't have time to fix that. Why don't you call a roofer in the morning and, while you are at it, go find a boyfriend on the side.
I cannot get him to understand that my problem is only partly about sex and much more about attention, neglect, loneliness, and fear.
Let's be brutally honest here. I can get sex. I could get paid for sex if I was so inclined. I routinely turn down offers of decent money from decent looking men, because that is not what I want. I have never been faithful to any relationship except this one, but in this marriage, all I want is to be faithful. I love this man very much and all I really want is to be loved as much, and in the same way, in return.
Sex itself is not the issue. The issue is, I feel alone. We work opposite shifts and hardly see each other during the week. He will not carry a cell phone and it is impossible to reach him at work unless it is some kind of emergency. He does some housework, but for everything he cleans, he leaves a different mess for me to clean up, so it's not like he is actually helping. When he is home, he leaves the computer on line all the time so I cannot reach him. When we are home together and I call to him from another room, he always answers "what!" in this mean snotty voice that makes it abundantly clear that even my calling his name is a huge imposition. The fact that he does not even want sex with me is just one more aspect of this bigger problem.
I have tired to address this issue with him before. Part of the problem is, there is no good time to discuss it. We have so little time alone together, and most of it takes place while one of us is trying to get ready for work or go to sleep. I have considered asking him to write letters or email back and forth, so we can re-read things and answer thoughtfully and in our own time, but I am afraid that this would not work. The good side is, nobody could be confused about what was said. He has both physical hearing problems and cognitive listening problems, and frequently what he says I said and what I really did say are two different things.
Another part of the problem, however, is that he just does not want to be bothered. We have had the cell phone issue in some form or another since I was pregnant. I have mentioned to him many many times that I want him to have one. Either he refuses, messes it up in some way (Like before they hung up at the end of the call by themselves, he never terminated the call and ran through 300 minutes in 6 hours) or just claims it does not work. He did not even want to have a cell phone when I was about to deliver our son and might need to get hold of him fast.
Our wedding anniversary is coming up on the 19th (yikes--that's THIS WEEK! I thought it was next week.) Last Valentines day we were is such a better place. He gave me a beautiful card that started out with "Lets promise to always be in love...." and it was just so appropriate for where we were at the time. Looking at it now makes me cry.
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Something else that is bothering me.
We had a huge fight because I tried to tell him how alone I feel. Yet he refuses to make any changes that might help that. For example, the cell phone issue. And keeping the phone line tied up so that I cannot even call to tell my son goodnight. And leaving his clothes on the floor and dirty dishes in the sink so it is just more for me to do, as if I am his maid or something. ANd he never wants to take time to discus bills and lately he even makes excuses not to balance my checkbook (which he took on because I just can't do it, and it was costing us a lot of money for me to continue to try.)
He is always full of excuses about why he never wants to do anything like this. He can't take his laundry downstairs/take out the trash/whatever because he does not have time. He won't discuss bills or do housework on the weekend because that is his weekend, and god forbid he should do anything non-recreational on the weekends. But we are never home together during the week. His answer to this is, I should take a day off work if I want to discuss bills or whatever. Then he bitches because I only work part-time. ANd he also bitches if I do housework on the weekends, because this annoys him. (More like, I think it guilts him out b/c he knows he should have done it during the week.) It doesn't seem to matter that it annoys me to sit in a messy room all weekend.
Sooooo...
*it is NOT ok for me to tell him I feel alone.
*it is NOT ok for me to ask for help with things I need help with.
*it is NOT ok to need sex, love, or attention when he has other things to do ( like sleeping!)
*it is NOT ok to ask him to give up any of his precious leisure time to deal with issues we need to face together, whether practical or emotional
*Things that should be solved together, like sex, I should take care of on my own, but things I could do on my own, like straightening up the living room on Saturday morning, I should not do at all. Oddly, the LIVING ROOM is his responsibility, but sex with me apparently is not???
*in order to make time to discuss finances, I have to give up a shift of work, which we so desperately need.
OK, I am beginning to see why I feel so desperate and stuck here. There is no way to win, is there?
One thing I have learned from sales that does apply to regular life: When a potential customer keeps coming up with unrelated objections to a sale, then that means they do not want to tell you what the real reason is. This is sort of scary. Maybe like Sealynx suggested, he is gay. Maybe he really doesn't have it in him to remain interested in me now that he has trapped me. (He has, after all, told me how much more attractive he found me when I was still attached to someone else.) Maybe he just wants to be Peter Pan or maybe his bitch of a mother so programmed him for failure he is hell bent on sabotaging himself and our marriage in the bargain.
So NOW WHAT?
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Dear Ted,
I am sick and tired of all your bullshit in this marriage. You knew on the day we got married what kind of person I was. You knew what I wanted and expected and that I would take our vows seriously. You knew I would expect you to keep your vows to me, also.
We were very troubled before the wedding, but you promised that if I would go through with this, things would work out. I loved you so much, and I needed you and was very scared of losing you, and I made myself believe that with time, everything would be OK.
Now it has been seven years and things are not OK. I know there are some very deep issues going on here, but I don't know what they are. All I know is how I feel and the things I see happening between us.
You became very angry when I told you how alone I feel. Yet, your only reply was, "if that is how you feel, then leave." We both know that that is not what I want, and I don't think you really want that, either. Still you refuse to discuss this with me. Whenever I try to bring up any aspect of our marriage that I feel needs attention, you put me off and don't want to discuss it.
This has really become an untenable situation. I have needs and wants, just as you do. I understand your need for space, but it it is neither more nor less important than my need for togetherness. I feel as if I am expected to give up quite a bit in this marriage, but you don't seem to want to give up anything.
These are the options we have:
1. You can continue refusing to talk to me in any meaningful way. Things will never get better and we will continue to have stupid arguments until one of us finally gives up.
2. We can negotiate to solve some of our issues. We have had enough therapy, we know the drill. We will choose one issue at a time to work on, work on it until we reach a solution, and then do whatever we said we would do. If we go this route we will have to write stuff down and make up schedules for doing things. I will insist (like a good therapist would) on having contracts and holding each other accountable. It will be a great way to handle surface issues like when to pay the bills and whose turn it is to clean the cat box. Then we can go through the motions of having a stable marriage and as long as we both stick to all our agreements, contracts, and schedules, things should be calm and predictable. As soon as one of us breaks one of the complicated rules, all hell might break loose and months of hard work might fall apart.
3. We can make an effort to really listen to each other. I can stop saying ,"why do you hate me?" and taking everything so personally, and you can make an effort to really understand what I mean when I tell you things. You can understand why I feel so alone and better yet, you will know how to get me to stop saying it by removing some of the reasons. I will understand why you need so much space, and then maybe I won't feel threatened. It will be really really hard and we will not like all of it. It will be a ton of work.I will cry and maybe you will too. We will say a lot of things the other does not want to hear at first. We will both get a little hurt in the process. It will suck.
If we do this, you have to promise to be honest with yourself and with me, and to give your very best effort to this. That can be a lot harder than it sounds.
At the end, we will understand ourselves and each other a lot better. We will know whether we want to continue on together. If we do, we will do so with greater empathy and understanding, and we really will have a strong marriage. If not, we can let go gently and with few hard feelings. In the worst case, even if we choose not to stay married, we will probably be able to go on as friends and still be good parents to our son.
You may not know or believe it, but I have stood on this precipice many times before. For every ultimatum I have issued, I have bitten back three. You probably believe I am not serious, but I am and I always have been. My optimism and desire to believe that things will change for the better is what keeps me here. I pull back at the last moment and don't carry through with my threats because I don't want to shut the door on hope for the future. It is becoming more and more apparent to me that things are not gong to get better unless we both work at this together.
You always say you don't know what I want. Well, this time I will tell you. If you choose to do nothing, we should start thinking about how to end our marriage with the least upset to Kiddo. It is unfair to all of us to keep going in such a hopeless state. If you choose to work on surface issues alone, I will go along with that and hope things will evolve for the better.
What I really want, and it should be no surprise to you, is for you to tell me that you want to face our problems together, whatever they turn out to be, and to do all we can to make our marriage strong and beautiful. It scares me to death to think about this because, of course, what if we fail? What if it turns out that we are just wrong for each other? What if you tell me things I really don't want to know? I am terrified. I am almost as afraid that you will say yes as that you will say no.
It took a great amount of courage to write all this. I cried most of the time and I am almost shaking now. Yes, I who am not scared of anything, am afraid of the difference between "yes" and "no." I want to beg you on my knees, please choose the last option. Please, please let our marriage be worth the effort. Please don't abandon me. Please love me enough to give this your best shot. Please love me.
Remember, I believed in you seven years ago . . . .
Erin
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Sex is really pretty weird. It’s like money, it hardly ever means what we try to say it means--it always means so much more.
Sex is really about physical desire and how that is stirred up is so individual and unique. There can be a lot of things hampering your husband’s desire for you--from actual physical problems, to fears, to feeling inadequate, to misconceptions about aging. Notice all those are about him, not you. But if he gets pushed, he will say its about you.
When I was single, sex was all about fun. I have a history of rather grotesque sexual abuse, and at some point I decided that nobody was going to take the enjoyment of sex away from me. I had a good time, I admit. I had a couple periods of joyful promiscuity interspersed with some long relationships. I cheated on every relationship I ever had, except for this marriage. Usually the reason was something like, I was ready for more commitment, he was not, so I said "Screw you!" and slept around.
When I started sleeping with my husband, I was in a bad place emotionally. My fiance was dying of cancer, and I had not had sex in months. My body ached all the time from the stress and the enforced celibacy didn't help any. So I started drinking and sleeping around. It was the only time I ever slept with anybody I met as a dancer. Ted and I were hanging out a lot anyway, because his wife had left him and we were both lonely and miserable. So it was pretty easy to start sleeping with him, especially when we had been drinking. For a while I swore every time that it would not happen again next time, but then Rick lost his battle and there was really no reason not to.
Ted has been the only one since Rick died 10 years ago. I am not sure exactly why, but I have not even wanted to sleep with another man in all that time.
One thing is, I look at sex differently now. I don't see anything wrong with sleeping around when you are single, but when you get married, that changes things. Now sex is part of the marriage, something that is special and kept just for your spouse. Even as a dancer, I have boundaries that no one can cross. As one of my married colleagues says, you have to have something special to keep to yourself and take home with you at the end of the day.
Also, sex is not so much just a sport for me anymore, it is more about the relationship and emotions. It can make me feel safe, loved, cherished, beautiful . . . . you get the picture. When he is not interested in me, I feel like, OMG, he does not love me any more, or maybe he doesn't think I am pretty enough any more. I used to worry about my weight at times like this, but since I lost so much, at least I don't have that hanging over my head any more. I think it makes things worse because he tends to withdraw in several ways at once, so its not like he is still a loving husband who is involved with other aspects of my life. Its more like living with a clam. This tends to make me bitchy and demanding (no surprise) which makes him withdraw al the more.
One thing that has been at the back of my mind, and this really does bother me, is that he says he found me much more attractive when I was with somebody else. I am not sure why this is. It might be something about conquest, but Knowing Ted as I do, I have a hunch it is more about avoiding responsibility. My gut instinct is that he just does not want to deal with me as a complete, troubled human being. It was waaaaay more fun when I was just a f*ck buddy. I have news for him--it was more fun for me then, too. But I didn't get pregnant by myself. In other words, he needs to grow up.
I wonder what he thought was going to happen when we got married and had a child? If he had thought ahead, he must have known that things would change. He certainly knew how I felt about monogamy within a marriage. I made that abundantly clear before we got married. I was not going to consider going outside the marriage for sex and made it clear that if he did, that would be grounds for divorce. So its not like I deceived him on that score. What am I thinking? this is a man who is so inept at thinking ahead he cannot even play checkers. OK, another mystery solved.
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Hi Erin,
That is pretty scary because it fits a pattern I've read about. I am not a therapist so I don't want to say he has a particular problem, but I will say that I would be just as upset as you are. The pattern I've read about is that of a "cerebral narcissist". There is a discussion of it on this board...
http://www.voicelessness.com/disc3/index.php?topic=771.0
You may want to look this up and think about it. The description includes low sex drive and/or lack of. Again, I hope you can talk with a therapist about this. Hopefully you have gained some valuable insights from having written all of this down and are now ready to process them.
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Ouch.
http://www.drirene.com/6_nar.htm (http://www.drirene.com/6_nar.htm)
The narcissist divides all women to saints on the one hand and to whores on the other. He finds it difficult to have sex ("dirty", "forbidden", "punishable", "degrading") with feminine significant others (spouse, intimate girlfriend).
He did some of that Madonna/whore stuff back at the beginning, but I thought he'd grown past it.
The idealized females are sexless, the devalued ones - "worthy" of their degradation (sex) and the contempt that, inevitably, follows thereafter.
This pretty much describes his taste in porn. It always did bother me a little, but some of my fantasies are a little sterange too, so I decided a long time ago not to make an issue of it.
The narcissist believes firmly that women are out to "hunt" men and that this is almost a genetic predisposition embedded in their chromosomes. . . . .she is a parasite, a leech, whose sole function is to suck dry every man she finds and Tarantula-like decapitate them once no longer useful.
Waaaaaaay to close to home here.
Heterosexual narcissists desire women as any other red-blooded male does (even more so due to the special symbolic nature of the woman in the narcissist's life - humbling a woman in acts of faintly sadomasochistic sex is a way of getting back at mother). But he is frustrated by his inability to meaningfully interact with them, by their apparent emotional depth and powers of psychological penetration (real or attributed) and by their sexuality. Their incessant demands for intimacy are perceived by him as a threat. He recoils instead of getting closer. The narcissist also despises and derides sex, as we said before. Thus, caught in a seemingly intractable repetition complex, in approach-avoidance cycles, the narcissist becomes furious at the source of his frustration. Some of them set out to do some frustrating of their own. They tease (passively or actively), or they pretend to be asexual and, in any case, they turn down, rather cruelly, any attempt by a woman to court them and to get closer.
Ouch. Again.
This comes form an article written by the vampire sam vankin, so it is a little questionable. I noticed a while ago that Ted does have some narcicistic qualities, but he has made efforts to get over them. We all know that simple self-centered behavior, selfishnes, and lack of imagination can be traits of a N without the person actually being N. In Ted's case, I attributed a lot of what I saw to his upbringing. He seems to have grown past a lot of it and is, most of the time, a kind, loving father. He is not that bad as a husband, in spite of the current problems and some of the mean things I wrote here. He has changed a lot since we got together, mostly for the better. I can see clearly that he exhibits some N traits, though it does not seem to me that he is a full-blown N. He has backslid some lately, making a lot of nasty comments about women on TV based on their looks. Also like I said, he has become rather snarky and mean for no apparent reason. He does that periodically. I try to consider it as male PMS and ignore it as much as possible. It was the comment about me taking a lover that brought it all to a head this time.
According to the vampire Vankin, a true N enjoys the pain he causes by being inconsistent and incomprehensible to his partner. I am not sure this is him, because he seems confused at my emotional reaction, rather than pleased with it.
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Dear Erin
I talked to my friend about your thread. He is a very insightful male. He says he thinks your H just has a hard time with feelings.
He said that when a man feels overwhelmed with feelings he can't handle, he shuts down.
I think it is that simple, really.
I think that you must ,also, have a hard time with feelings cuz of your NM.
I don't think there is a bad guy/good guy here.
I think you are both struggling with your own issues and could easily blame the other as a source. I think that if you get too ahead of yourself with gay, N ,power trips or other such things, you could blow it larger than it is.
xxooo Ami
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Ami--
Wise words. There are some serious issues here, I know that. SOmebody way back at the beginning suggested I keep my feelings to myself and journal/post/etc until I get a handle on it, rather than make a big issue out of it with him. So I am throwing ideas around here and seeing what fits, before I make any more comments to him about it.
You are right, we both ahve a hard time with feelings. I get all overwhelmed by mine, and he pretends not to have any. Good friend. Tell him I said thanks for thie insight.
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Thank you, Erin. He is a guest so he will read it. Wise of you to journal and think before speaking to him! xxooAmi
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Erin,
Yeah, I think you are getting down below the sex issue.
And I think you are going to do some deep healing on a lot of different levels as you work through this. I really am hopeful for you.
Here’s a couple of things that I see from what you have said:
You are really, really angry. And you have been for a long time. That kind of anger (and it may very well be justified) just won’t allow the kind of joyful sex that you are desperate for. That doesn’t mean you should stuff the anger, but that your struggle with your sexual relationship is like a warning signal to let you know that its time to get to the bottom of it.
I don’t think, from what you’ve said, that he is a narcissist. At any rate, I think it would be better to look at the relationship as though he’s not at this point--since, if he is, it is NOT going to get better. And you have given some really good reasons for why you think he isn’t.
I have found that when I am angry about the kind of things you are angry about, it is really about powerlessness. Maybe that’s just me. But when I can come up with a solution to the conflict ON MY OWN, or if I can work my way through my feelings so I don’t even feel the same tension, I am okay. The other person doesn’t really have to change. If this resonates with you, you might take each of the things you list in your letter to him (cell phone, dishes, etc.) and see if you can find either a solution, or a way of working through your feelings.
I hope that doesn’t sound like a pat solution--its not, and when I have done it, it has been a long arduous process. But at the end of the process, I was a lot stronger, felt a lot more inner power than if I had convinced the other person to change. Again, that’s me. Each one of those issues will have its own struggle, and maybe if you are up to it, you can hash out the struggle here.
The other thing I noticed in your story is that a lot of your self-image is tied up in your sexuality. You probably said this somewhere, but I missed it….are you an exotic dancer? If so, that would make your sexuality your means of making a living. It has also been your way of leveling the playing field when you feel that you are more committed to a relationship than the other person is.
It was the way you dealt with your grief when your fiance was dying. And now your sense of worth and beauty is undermined by how your husband is relating to you sexually. AND when you were young and your self-image was being formed, you were subjected to a lot of grotesque sexuality. Wow. You have a lot of your deepest self invested in this area of your life. So, this is more than just a relationship problem to you.
You mentioned your husband’s use of pornography….be sure to take into account that his use of pornography could, all by itself, be at the root of his disinterest. Pornography is to joyous married sex what junk food is to deeply satisfying, well-prepared food. Fill up on the junk and there’s not much room for (or interest in) the good stuff. So, that’s one more thing for you to look at….by yourself, for now. When you have your own thoughts clearer, you’ll be in a better place to talk to him about what you think.
I hope you know that you have a lot of support here…and I believe all the best for you.
CB
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Hi CB,
You are very insightful. Yes, I am a dancer. Which I have to keep stressing to people, is NOT about sex as much as it is about sales, fantasy, entertainment, and psychology. And you are also correct that a lot of who I am is related to my sexuality. As best as I can tell, my abuse started when I was pre-verbal. Years of therapy have convinced me that it is easier to accept this fact about myself than to try and fight it.
You have a lot of your deepest self invested in this area of your life. So, this is more than just a relationship problem to you.
Like I mentioned before, Ted is not an abstract thinker. I think this is why I have such a hard time making him understand that sex not really the issue. Like i said before, he seemed it view it as a practical problem. No time ti clean? Call Merry Maids. No time to mow the lawn? Call a landscaper. No time for Sex? Get your wife a boyfriend. :roll: Whatever. The concept of sex=desirability=value as a human being completely escapes him. Ami's friend, if you read this, please tell me, it that just a guy thing?
I think he is also confused by the fact that for most of my life, I have been kind of a slut. Not that my standards were low, just that I had a lot of sex with a lot of partners. I really do consider recreational sex a terrific pass time, and I love to laugh and joke and play during sex. I believe sex is supposed to be a joyful and fun experience. All this has been really hard for him to get his head around. Serioulsy, he almost kicked me out of bed the first time I cracked a joke during sex. I think the additional idea that recreational sex is just a fun sport and sex within my marriage means something different, really messes with him. It took him years to grasp the concept of "fun", and now I am throwing him this weird abstract curve where sex doesn't really mean sex at all. I can see how he would be confused.
Its true that I am angry about him being irresponsible. Did you ever see "the story of us?" In the movie, Meg Ryan and Bruce Wills play a couple who is using the time their kids are away at summer camp as a trial separation to decide whether to get a divorce. Meg tell her friend that Bruce is like Howard in the children's book, "Howard and the purple crayon." She says that like Harold, Bruce goes through the world drawing it however he wants it to be, with no regard for the reality of raising children, keeping a home together, or all the other things that weigh on Meg. SHe feels as if she is the only responsible adult in the relationship. "I just can't get him to put down the damn purple crayon!" she concludes. Well, that movie could have been made about us. We both cried when we saw it. Ted is growing more responsible, but I still feel as if a lot of the responsibility rests on my shoulders. Thinking about this objectively, that might not be so true as it was a few years ago. Hmmmm....
The issue of him not being available to me does hurt. The fact that I have mentioned it time and again, and he still does nothing about it really irks me. Now that is something I do need to bring up to him. The little messes in the house drive me nuts, too. I mean, why exactly does he need to leave 7 pairs of socks and underwear on the bedroom floor? Is this some sort of decoration? :lol:
We have had it out over the porn issue a few months ago. I completely agree with your junk food analogy. Nothing wrong with a few fries or a cookie or some dirty pictures once in a while . . . but in addition to, not instead of, the good stuff. To be fair, if we were having sex a few times a week and he wanted to play around with porn when I was not available, I really would not care. What bothers me (and I am still not quite over it) is that he was using it instead of having sex with me, then bitching about being too tired. Well, gee, Einstein, maybe if you conserved your energy . . . . :x
What I am seeing here, and I have tried to address this issue with him before, is that he has this huge list of excuses why he does not want to have sex.
*Too tired (His favorite)
*Angry at me (he has been known to pick fights)
*I have been nagging
*He liked it better when I was with somebody else
*He does not like my current hair/nails
*Getting older/losing interest/past his peak
*Takes too long/too much work (how flattering)
*Not enough time together without son
*I am frigid when son is awake (partially true. I have a huge fear of him walking in on us)
*Too many other things on his mind
I think there are others. You get the picture. What do these things have in common? Absolutely nothing! Which tells me that there is really something else going on, that he does NOT want to address.
I think he may feel inadequate in some ways. In a lot of superficial ways, I am "more than" he is. I am more educated, more sexually experienced, better read, better traveled, talented in several areas, and I make more than he does. Not to say I am better looking, but after he gained weight during my pregnancy (really. he did) he stopped caring about this looks so much. (Then there was a long period where he complained because *I* let myself go :roll:) Meanwhile, I have gradually been losing weight and improving myself.
Another possible problem is, for many many years I was his "fantasy girl." I started modeling in college, and he has always had pictures of me, composite cards (like a model's business card) , etc. I really was that girl in a poster on his wall. Sometimes I think the (really fast) transition from poster girl to co-parent was a bit much for him.
And then, sometimes I think this whole "take a lover thing"--this is not new by the way, I have heard it before--is just a way to avoid the responsibilities of being in a grown-up relationship with a real human being. Easier to let somebody else do it. :(
OK, well that's enough of the random thoughts for now. I need a little sleep.
Thanks for being here, you guys. I have never, ever had girlfriends with whom I could hash things out like this.
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Dear Erin
I will ask my friend to read your post and tell me what he thinks. *I* am an insightful person but he rocks way more than I do in the insight department.
I admire your honesty so much, Erin. With all that honesty, you are sure to come to a good answer ! xxooo Ami
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Thanks Ami.
SOmetimes it hard to figure out what is just a "guy thing." Talking to Ted is really like talking to a rock. I never know whether he is really just that much of a blockhead, or if there is someting else going on.
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My friend is coming over today so I will go on the computer with hum beside me.He is very atypical for a guy. He is a natural writer and that is why he is so insightful. More later, friend :) xxoo Ami
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Hi Erin
My friend is here . He says that perhaps your H has what many men have ot varying degrees--Madonna/Whore complex which is when the woman becomes a mother, he doesn't know where to put her sexually. It is hard for him to find the right "box"to put her in.
So, he shuts b/c he is conflicted and does not know how to navigate it.
I think he may feel overwhelmed ,emotionally, also, right now.
xxoo Ami
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I've been giving this some thought and it worries me that this has been going on for years. Here is a list of the major problems you describe, all in one place......
1. I cannot get him to understand that my problem is only partly about sex and much more about attention, neglect, loneliness, and fear. (He does not acknowledge your feelings)
2. He will not carry a cell phone and it is impossible to reach him at work unless it is some kind of emergency….. When he is home, he leaves the computer on line all the time so I cannot reach him. When we are home together and I call to him from another room, he always answers "what!" in this mean snotty voice that makes it abundantly clear that even my calling his name is a huge imposition. The fact that he does not even want sex with me is just one more aspect of this bigger problem. (Reacts to attempts at communication with verbal abuse or threatening tone).
3. Another part of the problem, however, is that he just does not want to be bothered. We have had the cell phone issue in some form or another since I was pregnant. I have mentioned to him many many times that I want him to have one. Either he refuses, messes it up in some way (Like before they hung up at the end of the call by themselves, he never terminated the call and ran through 300 minutes in 6 hours) or just claims it does not work. He did not even want to have a cell phone when I was about to deliver our son and might need to get hold of him fast. (Serious neglect of you during a very vulnerable time.)
4. Last Valentines day we were is such a better place. He gave me a beautiful card that started out with "Lets promise to always be in love...." and it was just so appropriate for where we were at the time. (Did he back those words up with actions for more than a few days??)
5. And keeping the phone line tied up so that I cannot even call to tell my son goodnight. And leaving his clothes on the floor and dirty dishes in the sink so it is just more for me to do, as if I am his maid or something. (Is he so addicted to porn or online gaming that you have developed a mother/son relationship where he is the “kid” who stays in his room and avoids the world while you provide a home?)
6. ANd he never wants to take time to discus bills and lately he even makes excuses not to balance my checkbook (which he took on because I just can't do it, and it was costing us a lot of money for me to continue to try. (Again, neglect of adult responsibilities because he is so busy doing????)
7. His answer to this is, I should take a day off work if I want to discuss bills or whatever. Then he bitches because I only work part-time. ANd he also bitches if I do housework on the weekends, because this annoys him. (More like, I think it guilts him out b/c he knows he should have done it during the week.) It doesn't seem to matter that it annoys me to sit in a messy room all weekend. (You can’t do anything to please him can you? And again….what has he been doing instead of these adult activities. Double bind situations are physically unhealthy as well as mentally).
8. OK, I am beginning to see why I feel so desperate and stuck here. There is no way to win, is there? NO, not with these rules.
9. From Letter to Ted: It scares me to death to think about this because, of course, what if we fail? What if it turns out that we are just wrong for each other? What if you tell me things I really don't want to know? I am terrified. I am almost as afraid that you will say yes as that you will say no. (You ask…. “What if we fail” Unfortunately, from the constant absorption to the neglected housework and emotional isolation, there is no we mentioned here. He is only the “responder”, not the initiator of realistic solutions. It as if he always says, “you do something because I don’t have the problem. “
Erin, when I look back over all your comments I see several things:
a. This has been going on many years. That tells me this not a phase or an inability to express himself. He does express himself. He basically says “leave me alone” again and again and don't think another woman would make a difference here.
b. You have probably put off a strong confrontation because you may feel very strongly that number 9 is the outcome.
c. You are talking about all of this because you can’t stand to live like this anymore and you are ready to at least ready to give lip service to number 9 being a reality.
d. He knows how to “not talk to you” and intimidate you into at least temporary silence. I don’t think another year of not expressing your need or anger will make a difference here.
e. I feel a third person preferably a professional is needed to break this pattern. If he won’t go you may have your answer to question 9, but I would still seek support for myself.
BTW..I found the reference I'd read to Cerebral Narcissist. It came from Rokellel Lerner's book "The Object of my Affection is in my Reflection." She called one form of Cerebral Narcissists "The Illusion Seeker". Your story was similar in that the example she used was a man who spent all of his time immersed in a hobby where he essentially lived a fantasy life.
In her example he played video games all the time and resented anyone who intruded in his "unreal reality". In his game world, he was always perfect, all powerful and a winner. He had little interest in life or in other people and managed to get a girlfriend who could be manipulated into making sure he didn't have to deal with reality and interrupt that fantasy life.
Good luck with this.
S
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:? :? My boyfriend is acting the EXACT SAME WAY even though we don't have any HUMAN children! :? :?
I just don't understand the male species!!!!!!
Bones
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Bones: I think there is something to the MALE PMS theory!
I don't know what to make of all this. Because Teds car is in the shop this week, he had to pick me up from work. We had a long time to talk on the way home. As I suspected, he really does not get that sex means more than sex, and that it has a different meaning now than it did when I was single. We talked about it, and he listened to what I had to say, but then he told me what I said was really complicated and he didn't think he grasped all of it. OK, I guess that's fair.
I was right about the insecurity thing. He was feeling overwhelmed and defeated because he felt he could not please me sexually, and was suggesting (in a rather mean manner, he admits) that I should look for someone better able. It has also been a fantasy of his for years. I thought I had heard of something like this before, and it turns out this is a somewhat common fantasy, primarily among white males, and that it gets more common as the men get older (IE, more 40 year olds are interested in this fantasy than 20 year olds.) Men who have this fantasy/fetish frequently feel inadequate in some way and are pleased with the idea that their wife is still able to enjoy herself, regardless of the husbands perceived flaws. Some men like the idea that their wife is a separate sexual individual, not just an extension of the man and his sexuality. Some feel it is a better alternative to let their wife sleep around, so long as he comes home, than to risk her completely leaving them for a better sex life. Many people try to get over feelings of inadequacy by attempting to improve themselves in some way or to adjust their thinking; however, men who enjoy this fantasy would rather reinforce what they already believe to be true, that they are just not good enough and their wife is better off with the attention of an additional man. Some men (oh, what is the word, I forgot!) twist (?) this feeling of inferiority into a sense of "ain't I wonderful, I'm so secure, I know what she's doing and who she's coming home to!" There are a lot of variations on this theme, the most common seeming to be voyeurism and humiliating the husband in some way. A very few men seem to like the idea that they never again will have to have sex with their wives, but it seems to me that this is indicative of a bigger problem. What surprised me most was that the fantasy is NOT about objectifying the woman by passing her around, but about making sure that her sexual appetite is satisfied regardless of the abilities of the husband.
Sealynx, thanks for taking the time to put all that together in one place. That was a very thoughtful thing to do. It looks really overwhelming. Let me take it point by point:
1. I cannot get him to understand that my problem is only partly about sex and much more about attention, neglect, loneliness, and fear. (He does not acknowledge your feelings)
I think in a lot of cases, he just does not GET my feelings. He does have a few N traits, and this is one of them. Feelings, especailly complex ones, are so foreign to him that he often denies they exist. I also notice that I seem to experience feelings of any sort much more intensely than he does, and he does not comprehend this. I think it confuses him and puts him at a disadvantage. For the first few years, we had a real struggle because he always thought I was overreacting, and I always thought he had the sensitivity of a brick.
To give him credit, he does try to listen. But I might as well be speaking Swahili most of the time. Also to his credit, once he knows something upsets me, even if he does not understand why, he will try not to go there again.
2. He will not carry a cell phone and it is impossible to reach him at work unless it is some kind of emergency….. When he is home, he leaves the computer on line all the time so I cannot reach him. When we are home together and I call to him from another room, he always answers "what!" in this mean snotty voice that makes it abundantly clear that even my calling his name is a huge imposition. The fact that he does not even want sex with me is just one more aspect of this bigger problem. (Reacts to attempts at communication with verbal abuse or threatening tone).
3. Another part of the problem, however, is that he just does not want to be bothered. We have had the cell phone issue in some form or another since I was pregnant. I have mentioned to him many many times that I want him to have one. Either he refuses, messes it up in some way (Like before they hung up at the end of the call by themselves, he never terminated the call and ran through 300 minutes in 6 hours) or just claims it does not work. He did not even want to have a cell phone when I was about to deliver our son and might need to get hold of him fast. (Serious neglect of you during a very vulnerable time.)
Now, this communication/availability thing is a serious problem. Remember, my pregnancy was eight years ago. He has grown up quite a bit since then. I don't think he would be an a*hole like that again if I were to get pregnant/sick/in a car accident/whatever now.
I think this may be about space or boundaries or something like that. I think somebody (Ami maybe?) was onto something by mentioning that his telling me to go get laid elsewhere was a big demand for space. The fact that it is ongoing and seems to involve some resentment on his part makes me think it is something huge in his background.
4. Last Valentines day we were is such a better place. He gave me a beautiful card that started out with "Lets promise to always be in love...." and it was just so appropriate for where we were at the time. (Did he back those words up with actions for more than a few days??)
For the last few years, we have been cycling thorough periods where we are very happy and times like we are in now. I am not sure why this happens or what triggers it, or even which one of us initiates it. The thing I loved about that card is, it was so appropriate to where we were at that time. It seems like the good times seem to last longer each time, but the valleys are still hell, as you see. I think we are both getting better at understanding each other and communicating with each other, but there are still a lot of pitfalls.
5. And keeping the phone line tied up so that I cannot even call to tell my son goodnight. And leaving his clothes on the floor and dirty dishes in the sink so it is just more for me to do, as if I am his maid or something. (Is he so addicted to porn or online gaming that you have developed a mother/son relationship where he is the “kid” who stays in his room and avoids the world while you provide a home?)
6. ANd he never wants to take time to discus bills and lately he even makes excuses not to balance my checkbook (which he took on because I just can't do it, and it was costing us a lot of money for me to continue to try. (Again, neglect of adult responsibilities because he is so busy doing????)
7. His answer to this is, I should take a day off work if I want to discuss bills or whatever. Then he bitches because I only work part-time. ANd he also bitches if I do housework on the weekends, because this annoys him. (More like, I think it guilts him out b/c he knows he should have done it during the week.) It doesn't seem to matter that it annoys me to sit in a messy room all weekend. (You can’t do anything to please him can you? And again….what has he been doing instead of these adult activities. Double bind situations are physically unhealthy as well as mentally).
The thing is, I don't think he is actually doing anything. Just wasting time, more than anything. He can't manage time for shit. He goes on line and starts playing Farmville on Facebook, then he wanders away and leaves the modem connected to our only phone line. I don't think he has done any on-line porn since my hard drive fried last March or so, and I told him it was all his fault from the viruses he must have picked up on the porn sites. :twisted:
Actually, I did tell him how much it bothers me not to be able to reach him at home. After all, what if something happens to my car while I am driving home at night? We talked about his need for space vs. my need for contact in that context, and he admitted that once he thought about it, shutting me out that way seemed pretty selfish, even to him.
I think the issue with the checkbook and the messes and so forth is again something about space or communication or responsibility. It really does smack of teenage rebellion. (I don't wanna do it and nobody can make me!) Remember, I knew him when he was a teenager, and in that respect, he has not changed much. He also whines. Childish. But now that you have pointed this out, I can really see him parading around the house singing "I don't wanna grow up, I'm a toys-r-us kid!"
Again to his credit, he is a responsible father and husband. He has a decent job that he goes to every day and puts most of his money in the bank for the house payment. He takes care of Kiddo's history lessons (home school) and spends almost all his time with us on the weekends. I know chicks whose men behave as you describe, and even worse. Ted is basically a good guy. Troubled, but good at heart.
7. His answer to this is, I should take a day off work if I want to discuss bills or whatever. Then he bitches because I only work part-time. ANd he also bitches if I do housework on the weekends, because this annoys him. (More like, I think it guilts him out b/c he knows he should have done it during the week.) It doesn't seem to matter that it annoys me to sit in a messy room all weekend. (You can’t do anything to please him can you? And again….what has he been doing instead of these adult activities. Double bind situations are physically unhealthy as well as mentally).
8. OK, I am beginning to see why I feel so desperate and stuck here. There is no way to win, is there? NO, not with these rules.
Yeah, this is just stupid. Unfortunately, I only ever bring it up (the finances) when we are having an argument, and at then I am not going to get a decent answer out of him. I will have to bring this up sometime when I am not screaming about it, and see if I get a better result.
9. From Letter to Ted: It scares me to death to think about this because, of course, what if we fail? What if it turns out that we are just wrong for each other? What if you tell me things I really don't want to know? I am terrified. I am almost as afraid that you will say yes as that you will say no. (You ask…. “What if we fail” Unfortunately, from the constant absorption to the neglected housework and emotional isolation, there is no we mentioned here. He is only the “responder”, not the initiator of realistic solutions. It as if he always says, “you do something because I don’t have the problem. “
I really take on the leadership role a lot. I'm not crazy about this, but when I try to bring it up, that causes an argument. It makes me feel like the only responsible adult (LIke meg Ryan in The story of us. ). But, somebody around here has to steer the ship, so I guess I'd better do it.
I'm not sure why it's this way. Probably some of that basic irresponsibility that I have been talking about all along, and partly a difference in personalities, I think. It's more like he says, "You do something because I have no idea what to do."
Erin, when I look back over all your comments I see several things:
a. This has been going on many years. That tells me this not a phase or an inability to express himself. He does express himself. He basically says “leave me alone” again and again and don't think another woman would make a difference here.
b. You have probably put off a strong confrontation because you may feel very strongly that number 9 is the outcome.
c. You are talking about all of this because you can’t stand to live like this anymore and you are ready to at least ready to give lip service to number 9 being a reality.
d. He knows how to “not talk to you” and intimidate you into at least temporary silence. I don’t think another year of not expressing your need or anger will make a difference here.
e. I feel a third person preferably a professional is needed to break this pattern. If he won’t go you may have your answer to question 9, but I would still seek support for myself.
It;s true that this has been going on for years. But, things are so much better than they were on the day we got married. We have made a lot of progress. He is tons better at expressing himself, most of the time. Then we have these weird times, when it seems like we have just gone back about 5 years. Like I said, I have no idea what (or which one of us) sets this in motion. For all I know, It could be something I am doing that triggers something in him. Or it could just be that he is being a pissy-pants little jerk, for whatever reason.
Actually, there have been serious confrontations. I have packed my stuff twice in the last 7 years. The first time, it resulted in therapy that did do us some good, but we got too close to some of my old abuse issues and I had to quit. The second time we were already in therapy, and had the ability to talk out the problem before I actually got in the car and drove away. IN both cases, the problem that forced the confrontation got solved and has not been an issue again.
One of my customer/friends told me something the other day that made me think. The gist of it is, sometimes we get our feelings hurt for no good reason because we mis-perceive the other person's intentions. What we may think is rude or disrespectful may just be that person's manner, the way they were brought up or what is normal where they come from. THey may not mean anything by it at all.
This has been the case with a lot of my marriage. Ted and I came form opposite poles when it comes to a lot of things like communication abilities, sensitivity, perceptions, introspection, and so on. He does not get me a lot of the time. And, as I so richly illustrated this week, I don't get him either sometimes.
Thanks to all of you and your kind words, I can see where we have some real issues--communication, responsibility, and being available. I sense that these are really deep issues with him, which is why he goes nuts whenever we get close to one of them. He is going to have to cope with this, or alt least we will have to come to some kind of workable solution so we can keep some kind of order around here.
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But, somebody around here has to steer the ship, so I guess I'd better do it.
Erin, can you take a really good look at this statement? and ask yourself: is this true?
Why do you have to do it? What would your life look like if you didn’t?
Or, better yet, what if you decided to only steer the ship that is your personal vessel--and not take on the job of steering his?
The reason I ask that is because I am so familiar with this trap. I have done it, and I try to do it every day until I make myself stop. It’s easy, easy, easy to fall in this ditch--and when you do, you can kiss your sex life goodbye. I am not talking about two loving adults taking responsibility for different aspects of their lives together out of mutual respect.
I am talking about one person feeling (as you have expressed) that you are married to someone who can’t think ahead enough to play checkers--and that you have to pick up ALL the dropped balls that result from his lack of forethought. If you feel that way, you are going to feel too much animosity to have wonderful sex, and if he knows you feel that way (and maybe even shares your opinion) it will kill his motivation, too.
Sex is so much about our images of ourselves--much more than it is about the other person’s image. You said someplace that you are more educated, better read, more widely traveled and that you make more money than he does. Do you know if that matters to him or not? Does it matter to you? Does he think that it matters to you? Does he suspect that you are keeping score (have you told him so, in an angry moment?)
There are practical solutions to some of what you are struggling with: not being able to reach him or your son. Get a second line on your phone. Yes, it costs money, but it is cheaper than marriage counseling. If this is a big issue in your marriage, taking up emotional energy that could be used to have sex or to deal with more life-altering issues, then use your power to make it a non-issue.
If you are doing all the work around the house and you want to have weekends free, hire household help. Where I am, there are lots of people looking for that type of work--and they arent expensive. Again, cheaper than therapy--and again, it removes one more thorn under the saddle that is distracting from the real stuff.
Those are some practical things that can take the pressure off in areas that you DO have control of….then there are the areas that are harder.
When I look at what you say about yourself, I see a lot of self-hate. You use words like: garbage, dirt, ugly. You hated your pictures of yourself. You said that you had been through a lot of degrading things in your childhood and that you have plenty of experience being passed around sexually.
You also said that you see your job as salesmanship--and that you are good at using sales skills such as flirting, etc. But that it exhausts you to keep it up longer than the time you spend at work. I can see how the techniques you use at work may actually be intimacy-limiting….you have to use techniques that give the impression that you are available, while at the same time keeping customers at a distance. And that would be exhausting.
Can you think through WHY you are as good at that job as you are? Most of us who are comfortable in our careers are doing something that comes somewhat naturally. (My job in the restaurant is really just my homemaking skill magnified to cover two restaurants). How much do you think you were damaged sexually by the things that were done to you? Do you think you learned to tune out on an emotional level, while connecting sexually? Has sex ever been a kind of numbing agent for emotional pain? If your husband is withholding that, what do you do to deal with the pain? Do you have another option, or are you left with all the pain and self-hate, and no way to deal with it?
If you and your husband met in that environment, do you think you carried any of that way of coping with intimacy into your relationship? You are ready to be real and loved and cherished, but did you pick someone who was comfortable in the more distant relationship that you began with? Maybe he is not shifting gears with you because he has never learned the skills to do that--and he was attracted to you in the very beginning because who you were didn’t ask him to learn them.
When he says he liked it better when you were with someone else, maybe he is expressing his wish to be more comfortable and not be responsible for these other areas. Sex was fun, but you got your self image boosted through your job and you were emotionally committed to someone else. Maybe the prospect of being responsible for all those aspects is more than he can face.
I’m not making excuses for him….but rather coming up with some more plain vanilla explanations for his behavior than that he is a narcissist, gay or has a Madonna/whore fetish. Maybe those are true…but maybe it would be good to start with an easier explanation and ask those possibilities to assert themselves more obviously. Then you can decide whether his inability or unwillingness is a deal-breaker.
One thing that may make you feel a little better…all relationships go through those-over-the-top, head-over-heels periods interspersed with what-the-hell-did-I-ever-see-in-this-person moments….its part of the breathing in, breathing out-ness of relationships. (well, maybe less dramatic people have less extremes--but all of us on this board are pretty dramatic :)
Maybe it’s good to know that what you are dealing with is normal married life, mixed with each one of your issues about intimacy that make you genuinely unable to see through any other glasses. And the time constraints that two people working have. And the body issues of growing older. And hormones. And kid issues. Lots and lots of stuff mixed together and almost impossible to untangle unless you journal. Talking to each other before you have done that just balls things up further. Men don’t untangle by talking--they problem solve differently. Sometimes they problem solve by playing video games. That’s the truth. Sometimes they avoid dealing with issues by playing video games. To the onlooker, there’s no way to know.
Keep journaling…use responses on this thread to dive deep into issues in your life that probably have been waiting for just this opportunity to be healed and resolved. Good luck!
CB
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What a lot to think about CB!
I can't focus on this tonight b/c I have go go to bed early/get up early. I will give it some thought over the next day or two and think it through.
What I have been noticing is that Ted is very angry and very defensive. Several times today I tried to ask him for information about some aspect of thae shit we ahve been talking about here, and it keeps degenerating into yelling. We have been to therapy three times alteady. Two were duds and one got too close to my issues, so we had to stop.
I have told him that he is either going to get past whatever it is that causes him to act this way, or he will have to go. I am done living with his mood swings and his stupid guessing games. Last night we had a stupid argument (another one) and then this morning, I asked him why he said such awful things. He said he didn't mean the things he said, it was just in-the-moment bullshit. I got to thinking about that tonight and asked him whether he remembered that our one good therapist had told us not to do that, and he said he had NOT been making up the awful shit he said to me, he actaully meant it. And then he went on to tell me that the only thing he made up was the part about making shit up, which he did jsut to shut me up and end the argument. :shock:
I was furious about this for about 5 minutes. Talk about frustrating! There are no fucking rules here. Nothing makes sense and the rules change continuously. Is he a complete asshole? Is he just completely ignorant of normal relationship behavior? WHat on earth is going on here? it is even weirder and more disconcerting than dealing with my mother!
But then I realized--this really is not about me! He was angry when I met him, nothing has changed in that department. He has been defensive and unwilling to discuss emotion, responsibility, and so forth the entire time we have been a couple. He ALWAYS gets defensive and tries to change the subject whenever I try to ask him a serious question. It can't possibly be me. No normal man gets his panties in a wad because the wife decided not go grocery shopping on Saturday, because it is just got to late. No normal person gets so het up about simple questions. Normal men don't pick fights for no reason and lie about emotions.
Normal men dont go around hurting the person who loves them most for no apparent reason. It isnt me, goddammit. Its him. Its him.
I have a whole lot to think about. I need to get some sleep. I feel horrible and I think I am getting sick. Bye for now.
Erin
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ANd I also learned a valuable lesson just now---if I back away, he comes to me . . . . . pain in the ass.
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Erin,
Just out of curiosity, did you meet your husband before you started dealing with your history of abuse? Didn't Dr.McBride say we unconsciously choose partners similar to our parents?
You're right....yelling, getting defensive, picking fights, thinking of you as "over-reacting"...those aren't good signs.
After dealing with an N mom, it's hard to admit that your husband might be an N too. I don't want to jump to conclusions and there could be other possibilities...but that's the feeling I'm getting when reading this thread.....:(
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Yes, he might be. Who on earth knows at this point. I have really only had a concept of a narcissist for a couple of years. I have to say, I have given this some consideration, but it seems like he has made a bit of progress, which gives me hope. My gut says that he is not one, but I guess we'll see.
I do know he has no concept of how to have a healthy relationship. Given his background, that really comes as no big surprise. I know he is defensive and angry, but I dont know why. I know I do things that drive him crazy, too, but it does not seem to me that the things I do are worth the reaction they get. But then, he may see things the same way, that the shit he says to me is not worth the hurt I get out of it.
One thing I notice, there are two sides of everything. He thinks I am oversensitive; I think he is an emotional brick. He wants more space, I need more reassurance. He gets mad when I ask him for reassurance, but if he would give me the reassurance I need, I could give him more space. Yelling only scares me and makes me more clingy. But then, needing so much reassurance only makes him want more space. Oh, so complicated! How area we ever going to work this out!
Right now I feel like kicking him out of this house and telling him not to let the door hit him on the ass. I feel like, why bother. Its not worth the pain. This man is never going to change. I may never be able to change. I hate the pain and the uncertainty and the fear and athe obsessing over it. better to get it over now.
But the thnig is, I love this man. he is my sons father and the only man I have ever been faithful to. He was my best freind for eyars. THe night I tried to kill myself, he was the only one I would talk to. before we were a couple we were alwys the best of friends. this is what I was so afraid of when I agreed to date him. I was terrifeid of losing out friendship.
I am down here tonight because I wanted him to say something reassuring befoe we went to sleep. "I love you and we are going to do our best to work things out" would have sufficed. Instead I got a 30 minute tirade on what a clinging leach I am (my words, not his. He doesn't do metaphors.) Now I am awake, miserable, and weeping. I could have been asleep by now.
ANd yet I see his point, too. I just cannot let it go. I obsess about this issue constantly. I do it because I am scared and confused and hurt and frustrated. I understand why he has had enough of it. I don't understand why I have to talk about it all the time. No wait, that's not true. I do understand it. But I need to get a handle on that before it ruins my life.
in spite of all the good advice I have gotten on this board, I can't NOT talk about it. it is because I want so badly for him to say it iwill all be all right. I wan thim to make the pain stop.
I wan tot feel safe and Iwant to be protected and I want the fucking pain to stop
I am not effective at wotk, I am not a good mother, I am not good at anything right now, because I am so wound up abotu this and I just dont know how to get my emotions under control.
Oh, btw NSL, I met him when I was 17. We worked at Wendys together, He worked the grill and I did the cash register.
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Dear Erin
This is just my opinion, of course. I have a BIG sense of hope for you b/c you are very honest. That is the first ingredient in true healing.
If I were in your place, I would look at myself, myself,myself.
I think you are doing that but that would be my quest. You have a history of abuse and you are wounded. Your relationship with him reflects your wounds. Your next relationship will do the same. If you are alone, you will be alone with your wounds so why not stay with the father of your child, whom you love , too.
He has wounds. He is really shut down from his past, same as you, even though he manifests it differently.
Your wounds make you cling too much. His make him retreat. It is kind of a classic match up. I think you would repeat it if you left him.
Did you mention you had early childhood sexual abuse. I had "mild" sexual abuse, I guess you could call it, and it threw me for a major loop I am trying to get out of now.
Our quality of life is all about our wounds, our wounds. We have to heal them in order to have any quality of life.
A few things are helping me and I think I am healing,God Willing.
Ariel and Shya Kane have written a few books and have a free on line radio show. They have really helped. Having one or two people who can SEE you,your deepest you. Let that person SEE, SEE, SEE you. Take all those BAD parts and show them to someone. As I heal , I show them to more people cuz I see they are a lie. BAD was a lie.
When you are abused, you think you are BAD.
Now, I talk more openly with more people cuz I can handle it if they don't "get " me or even lash out at me.
Sometimes, people lash out from their own wounding but I have been fortunate to have people who helped me when that happened.
That is my opinion from my own experience. xxxooo Ami
PS I have to add that my relationship with God is a major strength for me cuz if everyone hates me, He still loves me and is there.
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I have been thinking about some of the major things that have gone on on our lives since I got pregnant, which for some reason seems like the beginning of a long, slow slide of our sex life.
1. Other aspects of our marriage have gotten better.
2. Our financial situation is better.
3. I was at my heaviest point right before I got pregnant, having gained an atrocious amount of weight in the year previous. I have since lost about 50 pounds from that point.
4. I finished mourning for my fiance and became emotionally available to my husband
5. I was able to reveal to him the horrors of my childhood and the funhouse inside my head still today.
6. He gained and then lost weight.
7. We became parents, moved house, and got married.
8. I became a stronger and braver person in some ways, and am able to reveal my vulnerability in other ways.