Voicelessness and Emotional Survival Message Board
Voicelessness and Emotional Survival => Voicelessness and Emotional Survival Message Board => Topic started by: Ales2 on November 16, 2009, 05:39:03 PM
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Hi All,
Not sure if you read a previous post, but I recently met with my brother and we were discussing our NM issues, but it turned ugly (no personal attacks or anything, just a lack of understanding and support). I was in the car with him, got fed up and I asked him to stop the car, so I could get out. I walked about 15 blocks back to my car.... ANyway, I have to address the meeting - so here is my proposed email. I would welcome any comments or feedback. Basically, if I sent this to you - how would you feel? Its Ok to be critical - I want to express myself without exacerbating the situation or escalating to a fight.
Dear Brother:
Our last visit was really unpleasant for me. I felt you were overcritical, preachy, unwilling to listen and see another point of view and above all, your discussion of "choices" seemed to be more of a reflection of your life rather than mine. I'm afraid that you were not listening and you miss the other persons point of view, then you'll make assumptions and conclusions based on misinformation that will lead you in the wrong direction. That is not productive for any of us. Also, if you are not aware of how Narcissists sabotage the relationships, careers and sanity of their adult children, you might want to do some more research or discuss it with your therapist, before invalidating my feelings.
The visit ceased being productive or supportive, in fact, I felt verbally assaulted, which is why I had to get out of the car.
I use "you" alot - is that a NO-NO? Any thoughts?
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Well, it all depends on what you want to achieve. You already stated you don't want to escalate matters. No matter how absolutely true everything you said is, I think it is likely to make him mad (madder).
You might consider starting out by stating your experiences and what you're going through, which you didn't feel you got across in the face to face meeting. Instead of saying WHY it didn't get across (because he was overcritical, preachy, etc.) ... start out by stating what it was you wanted to communicate. Then transition to explaining how you felt (frustrated, etc.) when you felt you weren't getting your point across effectively (we know it's because he was unwilling to listen, but that's neither here nor there ...)
Then you could transition to standing up for your feelings ... such as saying, "This (XYZ) is my experience. You may not feel this way but I do. You may not have had the same experiences I had, even in our family of origin, but mine are real." Or something like that. And end up by saying that you have educated yourself on the types of home you two came from, and what you have read suggests that a personality like your mother's thrives on conflict and drama ... etc. etc. and that you don't think it has to be that way between the two of you if you are both careful not to let it happen.
Anyway, I know that my answer is not the only "right" answer out there. I was just giving you some ideas that I would probably use if I was trying to state the truth AND not make a volatile situation worse.
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Dear Ales
I think that you desperately want him to see things your way but I think that he can not or will not. I think that if he does not see things your way, there is no e mail, letter or conversation that will get him to change.
I think you are up against what we all struggle with---someone just does not see things as they are.
We were not mirrored as children so we fight to be seen with people who can't see us.
We repeat this pattern in many relationships.
If we could see ourselves, we would be able to better accept when other people can't see us. We would be better able to see it as their problem and not s/thing we had to fix.
Those are my impressions from your experience with your B. Please throw away what doesn't fit. I am sorry you had so much sorrow with your B. xxxoo Ami
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So sorry to hear about your brother's behavior, Ales2. How dare he invalidate you and speak to you in such a manner! What a bully!
For a long while, before I ended my relationships with some N family members, I put up safeguards when I was around them. For example, I would never get into a car with them or be alone in a room with them or put myself in any situation where I would end up at their mercy without an escape. It was empowering to me--I know, that sounds pathetic, but just those simple safeguards eliminated so much abuse that I actually gained some self-respect . . . which led to more safeguards and more self-respect. etc.
As far as the email to your brother, I think Ami's response has some good points.
Query: Why? Why do we often continue to try to be seen by those who cannot see?
Hugs to you, Ales2.
Joy
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Dear Brother:
Our last visit was really unpleasant for me. I felt you were overcritical, preachy, unwilling to listen and see another point of view and above all, your discussion of "choices" seemed to be more of a reflection of your life rather than mine. I'm afraid that you were not listening and you miss the other persons point of view, then you'll make assumptions and conclusions based on misinformation that will lead you in the wrong direction. That is not productive for any of us. Also, if you are not aware of how Narcissists sabotage the relationships, careers and sanity of their adult children, you might want to do some more research or discuss it with your therapist, before invalidating my feelings.
The visit ceased being productive or supportive, in fact, I felt verbally assaulted, which is why I had to get out of the car.
I use "you" alot - is that a NO-NO? Any thoughts?
I'd write it out a few more times, reading it afterwards each time, and tweaking it.
Boil it down to as few words as you can.
Concise.
To the point.
Less about your feelings and more about the facts.
He most likely doesn't understand....... it's not about invalidating you. He might be expressing how he truly sees matters, and denial isn't something he's doing to you. It's a defensive mechanism.
Perhaps validate his pov so he can hear you? Talk about how shocked you were, how unwilling to believe what you were seeing in your NM..... how you came to your realizations and perhaps quote some helpful passages from reading material that helped you understand.
Underscore examples he's familiar with.
So sorry you're going through this, Ales.
Mo2
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Thanks everybody for your advice - Im reading, digesting it to make some changes. For me, its mainly about responding and not letting this go in silence as I have in the past. Thats already a huge victory for me. No more voicelessness! :D
BTW - sadly he's going through his own problems with his wife right now - so part of me was willing to let some of it go, but not anything he's done repetitively in the past.
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I so can identify with your situation with your brother. I am experiencing literally the same thing. I agree, though, that if he doesn't get or is not willing to truly "look" at it, he's not going to.
I think the email is more a matter of tone.....I think the important thing is to try to express what YOU feel, what YOU've been through....Get him to try to understand your pain....He may never be able to empathize.....But I've learned the hard way that siblings from the same N family can have such completely different perspectives and experiences. Sometimes it's a matter of another sibling simply not wanting to take a good, long hard look at it....
It seems that we here on the board, are the ones who are committed at analyzing our N situations at a deep level...to understanding the WHY of it...and to deal with the issues. In my case, my brother does not really want to dig deep...He's rather accept it at a superficial level, and focus on his own family. He does not want to try to understand my experience or pain...or even why my N mom behaves the way she does. He just accepts it as "it is what it is." That's truly unbelievable to me...but I've come to understand I will never get his understanding or empathy. Perhaps you and your brother mimic that situation.
But I would use the email to very clearly communicate your experience and feelings. He may get it...He may not...The important thing is to voice your experience.
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Hi Ales,
He is your brother but you may be making quite a few assumptions about why he did what he did. Perhaps the one most likely to do harm is that he shares your need for giving and receiving support on the issue of mom's narcissism. Does he?
Not all men need their mothers enough to wade through the emotional turmoil of "seeing the truth". It could be that he will never want to see her as you do because there is no reason for him to "go there". He may be reasonably content with a marginal relationship and would prefer that to anything that sounds like unnecessary emotional confrontation. What he may have been defending in the car was not his refusal to support you but his refusal to get involved in what he saw as a battle what wasn't his.
I would probably just say, "I'm sorry for the way things ended the other day. I realize now that our experiences and their effect on our well-being have been very different. Perhaps this is not the best topic for us to discuss on future visits. Ales"
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Right on sista! Well said!
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Hi Ales,
The only advice I really know is to use I-statements and avoid "you" which (even if accurate) is blaming and will make him defensive, which will render him deaf.
Forgive the shortcut but my editing reflex kicks in so I just cut and paste and write (that's what I do during the day too--too tired to explain the changes so I just make some)...hope this is okay. Please take what's useful and ignore the rest...:
Our last visit was really unpleasant for me. I felt critized, preached at, unheard, unseen and generally shoved aside... I felt so unheard. And it made me sad for you, too, thinking that you'll make assumptions and conclusions based on misinformation that will lead you in the wrong direction. I was frustrated that our talk felt so unproductive.
I have learned so much about how people with Narcissistic Personality Disorder (NPD) sabotage the relationships, careers and sanity of their adult children and I want very much to share this painful reality with you. Because ultimately, it's healing to know what's real. As hard as it is to face, I know that understanding NPD is a lifesaver, and can change the course of both our lives. I hope with all my heart that you will do some reading about NPD and discuss it with your therapist. You can find a tremendous amount of good information about narcissism, even on the Internet.
Though I know feelings are just what they are and they belong to us and noone else, it was still painful to feel invalidated.
I honestly got to the point where I couldn't handle my feelings any longer. And that's why I had to get out of the car.
Does that help?
love and comfort,
Hops
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I think everyone has said it all for you and you have some great advice here. I know you will create the message that works best for you and conveys to your brother that you think differently and that doesn't make it wrong for either of you. Your feelings are valid as well. Period.
P.S. I just want to add to be careful. Getting out of the car in anger and/or hurt is never good. I hope you were in a safe area or at least knew of it well enough to make the trek back to your car in the utmost safe environment. There is much drama in pullling over and getting out of the car and that sends a message in itself but it is never worth it to jeopardize your safety.
Good luck! Keep us posted on the outcome.
Bear
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Hops - thanks for the rewrite - its a big help.
And, Bear, yes that getting out of the car surely sent a message - I just hope it was not one of weakness. There was no way to get him to stop preaching or change the subject and had I stayed in the car, I would have been stuck there for another hour, far away from my car, so I had no choice to but to get out. I got injured, so you know what you are talking about!
Strangely, that incident happened two weeks ago and it never occurred to him to check up on me. It tells me he must know that I got out of the car because of something he said and yet, he has not apologized. He cant seem to delineate between having a strong opinion about someone and taking the opinion so far as to invalidate the other persons feelings.
Thanks everyone for your help.
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Hi Ales,
Do you think that asking him to turn around and take you to your car was an option? I'm guessing you were injured by getting out of the car before it had stopped moving? I would definitely do that if I was in physical danger--did you think that you were? Or that he would refuse to return you to your car?
I know that feeling of panic when you are trapped somewhere with a lot of strong emotions. Happened to me this weekend, I could have easily seen jumping out of the car! :(
CB
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Hi Ales -
I've recently had to re-establish a working relationship with my brother after many years of going our separate ways. It's been difficult and I've had experiences like you've described. I've also written and re-written letters/emails like yours; even sent some. But it didn't get the result I wanted. One thing that might help is to ask yourself what you really want from the situation. One more person "on your side"? Someone to support you during interactions with your mom? Someone to simply hear you out and understand?
Young siblings in a bad FOO situation tend to band together, to survive. To cope. To comfort. To mirror each other, even. As adults though, we move on to a bigger circle of people and rely less on the sibling(s)... and learn to do more of this for ourselves. That "taken for granted" and automatic unity of emotion and purpose you might've had as children may no longer be possible, but other levels or forms of relationship might. Those are worth exploring. My brother and I are getting through the initial difficulties now. But I've not shared much of my feelings (nor remembrances of trauma) with him: it's not his problem and he can't help me resolve those issues. At the same time, I won't mother him either.
OH... and it's a lot safer to SAY what you have to say - even in anger (you can always apologize and admit wrong/unfairness) than it is to get out of car during an argument. Been there; done that. Won't ever do it again - unless it's more physically dangerous to stay in the car. It's dramatic - sure. But it doesn't resolve the emotional impasse or conflict as you've discovered.
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Ales, Once I told my mother that I was done arguing with her (of course I wasn't REALLY done, but I was trying!) ... and that when I shut up and said nothing that that meant I didn't agree with her. It drove her CRAZY but it helped quite a bit (although she sometimes works SUPER hard not to let me say nothing!). Maybe that could work with your brother if he is argumentative ... just say "I don't agree with you" and then nothing else. Especially if you are trapped in a car with him!!!
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Hi Ales,
I really can't add much to what others have said about the situation with your brother.
I come from a dysfunctional FOO. My brother and sister are both younger than me. My sister and I have been NC for many years. I have a relationship with my brother but it isn't one where we discuss the dysfunction in our family. He seems to recognize that we (the family) were dysfunctional, but brushes it aside as if it had no effect on him. Sure, I see some of the effect it had on him only because I spent 7 years examining it all, but if he can live with it, so be it! I guess it's a form of detachment. Anyway, when we skim the edges of the dysfunction, he says things like, I don't know how three people from the same gene pool could grow up so similarly and only one of them be right about what really happened in the family. Of course, he's the ONE! And he's joking. The bigger point is that without saying it outright, he's made it clear that he doesn't want to get caught up in anything but surface things where discussion of family is concerned. Over the years, it would have been nice to have him come along side of me and give support through the hellishness of my experience. That he didn't hasn't diminished my respect for him. He took a shortcut, I took 7 years to get basically the same answer, which is, yes our family was dysfunctional, but our hands are tied where changing the past is concerned. I've had to respect his boundaries as to his willingness to discuss how we were raised. He seems to respect my perspective. I expect that's about as good as it's going to get. This probably doesn't help, but just in case...
tt
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Ya know, this thread has sort of gotten me back to asking if there aren't some real gender differences in sibs in dysfunctional FOOs.
That what is a huge issue for one, is simply insignificant - accepted as a fact and let go - by another. It's not always possible to explain what makes it a big issue... but that doesn't mean the other doesn't care at all.
tt: this is where that FOO context of experience comes in, I think. Each person's experience of the same incident/event... is slightly different, as is their perception of "what happened". It does affect current/future relationships with sibs.
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Hi PR,
Yeah, all that stuf is complex. I am the eldest. Brother is the middle child (and being male and tall and very attractive) this made him a candidate for 'the golden child'. My sister has no clue that I see her side in a pretty clear light, which is that she had to ride the wake of my having been made the de facto parent of our mother (and I expect to her too) plus seeing our brother groomed as the golden child. Our home life experience must have looked sooooooo different to her and to him. One thing for sure, there is no one size fits all fixall for the type of family I grew up in. I am sure I'll understand more as the years pass, but what I'm thinking now is that as we kids were triangulated, i.e., the three of us occupied one point. So you have mom at one and dad at other, and us sibs at the third. To my way of thinking, there wasn't much movement as far as the exchange of power is concerned at the three points. My mom was always 'in charge'. But at the third point that we kids occupied, it makes perfect sense that between the three of us there was a sub triangle and that I was appointed to the roll of parent because I was the eldest and because mom needed me to parent her too. It's no wonder that my sister is so angry. My brother didn't have to 'work' at being 'in'. He was the golden child. He also happens to have a go along to get along side to his personality that my sister sure doesn't have. I think of myself as a little odd and not much like either of my sibs or my mom. I identify more with my dad in that he liked to talk about things and understand them. He wasn't allowed to do that in our FOO, but looking back, there were enough stolen moments of discussion to convince me that if he'd had or taken the 'power' to do it, our family would have talked through issues for resolution. I continue to think that he was so smitten by mom's beauty that his good sense as a parent was was numbed. I should add that my sister was the apple of my dad's eye. This in itself must have added turmoil to the overall situation. A huge goal of mom was to keep us kids seperated from my dad. She seemingly wanted ALL of us for ALL of her. When she let her grip slip enough that my dad and younger sister could share moments of daddy/daughter bliss (I mean good healthy interaction), it must have put mom in an absolute tizzy. Sad, sad, sad...
tt
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Hi Ales. I've found seeking support from the siblings is a difficult task. I have two siblings, and both of them seem to prefer numbed delusion to (what I consider) the truth. Every so often they seem to have a glimmer of recognition, but it doesn't last long.
There are some real psychological benefits to their way of operating. If they stay in denial about the situation with the FOO, they also don't have to question how it has influenced them and and their lives. I suspect the full implications might be far too painful for them to endure. So the "truth" gets buried in the subconscious. I've observed this long enough to see the processes at work. My brother in particular can't seem to endure any critical thought regarding the FOO. Even when he sees something wrong, he quickly forgets it. And if I insist on bringing up the truth, he just changes the subject. I am a threat to his fragile emotional equilibrium.
So I've decided just to stay away from the topic, and for the most part keep my distance. I'll be there to help them if I can when the denial fails, but I don't think pushing it will do any of us any good.