Voicelessness and Emotional Survival Message Board
Voicelessness and Emotional Survival => Voicelessness and Emotional Survival Message Board => Topic started by: Ales2 on December 06, 2009, 07:09:10 PM
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What are the differences between Narcissists and regular old selfish, greedy people? Does anyone have any ideas?
I recently came to the conclusion that my NMother put up with/allowed my father not to write/have a will because, ultimately, she'd be sole beneficiary. When you do a will, its begs the question, what about the kids? She never really cared about anyone but herself, which is the reason our family did not have a will. She just explained it away as "Dad;'s wishes". Total BULLSHIT. And, since she has used money to control us in the past (our college choices, choice of mate, living situation etc) she wants to maintain that control as much as she can. I know there are times when she follows the type of conventional wisdom a financial adviser (like Suze Orman, who I mostly can't stand btw) would say, there are many instances when her issues with money center around scarcity and being demeaning, belittling and controlling. It also extends to how she spends money on herself, how she hoards money and how she talks about what she "can't afford". In talking about what she cant afford, she is sending the message that she is poor, but its actually quite the reverse.
Anybody have any thought on this stuff? Does anyone have a NM who seems to only "help" financially when you are in crisis to maintain control and remind you of your failures? Anyone have a parent who has believed enough in you to invest in your business while still allowing you to make your own decisions? Or were you goaded into believeing they were helping only to find when you failed they blamed you? Kind of a self-fulfilling prophecy?
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Money is just another form of N feed. I could write a book on the subject of N parent financing. My parents taught us zero about managing money and only stepped in to bail us out when a little help earlier would have allowed us to prosper. They financed many projects for other but never put aside a cent to invest in either of us. Now that my father is dead and my mother can barely hear she still refuses to give me power of attorney to help with her affairs. She wastes tons of money buying junk and then says she has none. I could go on and on....
S
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Sealynx - ouch. I can relate to investing in others instead of your kids. In my sphere, its not so much that she chose to invest in us, but she demeans us, while comparing us to others who families invested in them, yet never praises or appreciates when we have done well independently.
With my Nm I really sense her money issues center around a need to control us - she mistakenly thinks it will keep us around, when it has just the opposite effect, we see her cruelty and it propels us to stay, far, far away.!
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My NM spends money on herself like crazy because she values being rich, which she is not. 10 years ago she had $500,000 that she inherited. That was enough to live on for the rest of her life comfortably, not rich but OK. Well she went through it so that now she has nothing. She went on cruises, bought clothes and expensive jewelry. I don't know what else. Now she's on only social security which pays very little. She still spends whatever she does get on thiings she doesn't need to buy. She still plans on buying expensive Christmas gifts. She's actually going to sell a ring she has to do this. She still THINKS she's rich, she just doesn't have any money. Huh?
I suggested to her to sell her antiques which are just gathering dust, but she said no; she likes them. (Read-they make me feel important). I'm just worried that I'm going to have to start buying her food or medicine. I don't want to give her ANY money. She made her bed, now she can lie in it. Or she can sell the antiques. Or her expensive jewelry.
NM doesn't try to control us with money. She just wants the world to see how generous she is at birthdays and Christmas. She wants the world to know how rich she is.
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Hi Ales,
My mum's feelings and issues around money are one of the things that I first started to notice about her and felt uncomfortable with.
When we were kids my dad went bust and we lost our house. We moved into a council place that was stuffed full of my mum's antiques and had crystal chandaliers in it. My mum talked constantly about how skint we were, how hard she had to work, how we couldn't afford anything etc. I got a part time job at 13 so that I could buy myself clothes, make up etc and worked three jobs when I left school so that I could buy my first car. It was only years later that I wondered why my mum never sold any of her antiques or jewellery when we were so broke and had to go without so much. She and my step-dad really prospered financially through other relatives dying and leaving money in their will. They were mortgage free by 50 and my mum took early retirement. They've travelled the world (to the point that my mum informed me they were going to stop going abroad because they found it really boring) and have six, yes, that's right, six vehicles parked out the front of their house. None of that money ever filtered down to any of the children or the grandchildren.
Over the years my mum has helped me out financially but it was always thrown back in my face at some point so I stopped accepting it. She always bought my boy loads of presents and spent a fortune on him, but it came with strings and I ended up saying no to that too. I honestly think the only thing she really does care about is money and what it can buy her. One of my earliest memories is of my dad taking some of her antiques to sell them. She went out to his car with an axe and threatened to smash the car to pieces if he didn't put the ornaments back in the house. Several years later she sat there the first time my step-dad assaulted me and didn't bat an eye lid. You can see where her priorities lie.
I know people who are very frugal but they still make sure their children get what they need. I also know plenty of those sort of people who never buy a round in a pub, but their children are well taken care of. I think there is a big difference between people who are careful with their cash to the point of being miserly and people who use it as another way of controlling and intimidating you.
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English:
NM doesn't try to control us with money. She just wants the world to see how generous she is at birthdays and Christmas. She wants the world to know how rich she is.
This quote surprises me. Isn't she busy controlling her image of wealth and how others see her? She uses the money to achieve that - isn't it the same thing? Isn't that Nism at its worst? The spending spree bolstered her "rich" image but left nothing for financial security.
My Nm is the opposite, plays 1/2 poverty and 1/2 status quo to keep secret what she has. But how she lives and what she has is so upside down, thats what makes it pathological. I know some of this is because she was a WW2 baby and her family lost everything, but its still dysfunctional. She's 72 now, talk about living in the past!
Thanks for everybody's input - I'm looking forward to more!
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YES..I don't know where to start. To even put N's twisted relationship with money would be a headache.
Let's just say she's done everything that's mentioned in this thread.
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When I look at myself today I always have nagging doubts about spending money because of all the criticism i received regarding my "wants" in childhood. I realize that most of what I heard growing up about spending habits was due to the fact that they didn't want to spend money on us and resented when we wanted anything they didn't have as children. I think this is the opposite of what most people who felt lack in childhood do with their kids.
For a long time I'd found myself buy lots of cheap little things instead of the major items I wanted. I was spending the same amount of money but it was as if buying the real quality item would result in some sort of disaster.
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Ales,
As I think back she did control me with money one way. I was not allowed an allowance, and they would not buy me clothes once I stopped growing at 12. They decided to give me $10/month for clothes. I was not allowed a job or a car. So I had no way to get money. I had none of the teenage things: records, clothes, posters on the wall, decorations in my room. The only music I had was the clock radio.
Now she tries to control me through the things she buys me, like "When can you come over. I have something for you?"
Even now I only buy at discount stores. I feel I don't deserve things bought at mall stores. I still don't listen much to music. I do read. They never bought me any books; I read their books. As a child i was reading Lord of the Rings and science fiction as this was the only kind they had that was not too hard. So as a kid, they controlled me by not buying me things, not allowing me to do things.
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Does anyone have a NM who seems to only "help" financially when you are in crisis to maintain control and remind you of your failures?
Hi Ales, this question struck a chord with me - but it's because I've been the mom asked to help (or offering to help) over & over again as my D's have lived from "crisis" to "crisis". I wasn't well-off, and only just able to see that I might be able to retire "comfortably", if we were very, very careful about our spending, at the time. It seemed "wrong" to be bailing them out repeatedly - but I felt much, much worse about not bailing them out; as if I were abandoning them.
My Nm did the same for me, that's where I learned the behavior I guess - and I never questioned it. In the course of therapy, tho', I did question it and how it sent the hidden message of "you're not able to get yourself out of the mess you made" and "here, I'll do it for you, again - even though I can't really afford it" which left me in the "suffering martyr" role - just like my mom. Offering to help seemed to indicate I had no confidence in my D's ability to take care of themselves - which wasn't really what I felt/thought. That situation has improved, but it's taken time and still has some way to go. It's sort of a co-dependent cycle... a refusal to let the D's go, separate from the child-parent relationship, and become independent grownups.
But that feeling of abandoning them... that opened up a whole rat's nest of work that eventually got me to a breakthrough of sorts. I was emotionally abandoned by my mom... and the only way she knew how to communicate "caring" to me - was through things; OBJECTS. To this day, objects - material things - represent emotions for her. But she doesn't recognize that people themselves feel emotions (only she does, but she offloads those emotions onto "things" to contain or represent them, fearing to feel, I guess). And people are more objects to her, than the things are. Her things are more important to her than people or relationships. She is currently alternating between trying to give me all her "things" (and in a magical-thinking way, accept her emotional projections as a real part of me, too) and asking me to give things back that she sent me without my consent.
To me, this is more a Borderline trait, than N... but then, sometimes the results were the same: even if I told her NO, I don't want such & such... she would send it anyway completely ignoring that basic boundary and my right to it. OH and if I can't find some object or "don't know where it is"... it sends her into a complete angry tizzy. If I say, no I don't want "that" or don't have room for anything else (which is true)... she responds as if I'm rejecting HER... because in her mind, her things ARE her.
Maybe that's an attempt to control; I am not sure. What I felt/feel... is that she wants me to be her, as a perfect mirror-image. And if I slip up - and show my real SELF - instead... then of course, there's "something wrong with me".
Any of that help or ring a bell?
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Bring on the books, CB... I'm far from being an expert!
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yes, books please!
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I am JUST seeing (with the heart )what an N is. I have written many things that my M did but I never could feel what it felt like. I am starting to see the enormity of growing up with an NM .
Thanks for the thread Ales. There were so many wonderful responses ! xxxooo Ami
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The book that spoke to me the most is by Liz Perle: Money, A Memoir: Women, Emotions and Cash.
Probably every book isnt for everyone. I find Suze Orman incredibly annoying to read or listen to. BUT I like her in small doses--she really makes some very good points. I will read her occassionally.
I dont like books that major on how to get rich quick, etc. I am really not interested in being rich, just unencumbered by preoccupation with money. But I think that is probably Perle's whole point....
CB
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Oh what a great thread! I have so much emotion about my NM and money at the moment that I am taken back by the mention of this thread and how Ales2 talks about it so close my own heart.
At this time, my NM just came into a significant amount of money. She is 69 years old and could afford to do several things in life, i.e., number 1: start a college fund for her only granddaughter (my 2 year old sweetie) which my NM said she would do ages ago and also help my brother who is struggling immensely with life. But she has decided to spruce up her condo and tomorrow, can you believe tomorrow, receives 9 new windows, 8 new plantation shutters, new bedroom doors with hinges and knobs, new sliding glass doors and new flooring throughout her 1400 square foot condo. I'm happy for her. She gets to indulge and improve her living quarters. On her last visit to our little house that we rent, she never mentioned the money for my daughter and didn't bring any for her to start a college account but bragged about her dream to go to Israel and that she was going to fulfill her life long dream to go to Israel. WTF??? She never mentioned this to me my entire life but now she's going to spend $7,000 on this trip!! Yes, I know, it's not NM's job to do sport my daughter with money but this is what she mentioned and said she wanted to but what she's actually saying is this: Oh, I have something that you want Bear, beg for it won't you, I have something that you need and I want you to ask me so that I can hold it over your head..."
What makes me sick is this: My NM actually thinks that if she were to give my daughter (her only granddaughter) money for a college fund or for whatever, NM thinks that she would be helping me out in some twisted way and this she doesn't want to do! Sad. So sad. She does not see that I have nothing, nothing to do with her money for my child--it has NOTHING to do with me whatsoever, it is is for my child in her name and for her benefit, period.
I can't believe this thread. How ironic that I'm going through some things right now with my NM and this "new money" and the similarities of all your stories. I'm so glad to read them.
There is so much more to this new thing going on with my NM and her new money. I will come back when I have time to "talk" about it.
Bear.
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P.S. I'm just feeling really bad right now about this. I guess because it's Christmas time and my NM has mentioned so many times recently that she wants to "help" us and that she wants to "give" us money. But she never does. Weeks and months go by and she has not done a thing but calls to brag about the $12,000 home improvements and her newly planned trip to Israel that costs $7,000.
I believe that giving comes from the inside and not the outside. If you don't have any gifts on the inside, then the gifts on the outside are fake and meaningless. They are not real gifts. You can not give a gift to someone if you have no gifts on the inside to give; therefore, you can not have just one of these so called traits. You either have both traits or none at all. Make sense?
My NM has no gifts to give in the first place. I have to understand this.
Bear
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Dear(( Bear))
What you said about your NM not HAVING any gifts was profound! I hope I am seeing that finally, after ALL this pain! xxxoo Ami
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Suze gets on my nerves most of the time, but like you CB I have to admit that she makes some very good points; knows her "stuff".
Your book sounds interesting and also tantalizes my curiosity with wondering about something. I wonder how much our emotional beliefs about money - good, bad and just pragmatic - are interwoven with where we are in working on our old emotional issues. If beliefs and attitudes about money evolve, too... ya know?
And if, like the ways it's possible to inhibit our emotional lives/experiences out of defense of self... we also let attitudes/beliefs about money limit us, too? Denying ourselves happiness -- or security -- out of fear that someone will come along and say: you're not allowed! Who do you think you are??! ACONs and money... could be the other part of the story.
And my... aren't there a lot of different things to think about and look at... big and little; clear and fuzzy...
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Huge and horrible topic for me, this.
I am terribly confused and struggling.
I brought my 29 y/o D from Florida to live with me while she finishes her MS. We'd had the agreement that when she was down to her last $1500, and hadn't found work, it would be time to move home. (Or, she said "Yes" when I said it.) She got down to her last $150 before she caved to the inevitable. I paid for the truck, gas, plane fare for her bf/helper, and told her I'd support her completely for 3 months but as of January she needed to contribute $200/month. So I'm doing all groceries, gas (we share my vehicle), her cell phone, clothes, cat food, rats to feed her snake, etc. It's what I agreed, it's okay.
BUT. Her bf dumped her and she was destroyed. Within two days, from crying in my arms, she turned around to vent all her rage on me. She called me, by email, a f**ing moron, a stupid bitch, a selfish bitch. I am: lazy, a narcissist, exactly like my mother, weak, etc, etc. She has been merciless. Sometimes when she's angry she watches boxing or extreme fighting (she loves it) on her laptop. I feel like she feeds her inner brutality and she's become someone I can't recognize. (Well, I do...her father.) We have agreed to find a family counselor but she has inserted many obstacles. We may not use my insurance because that would create an unequal power relationship. We have to go to a free service. I am required to help find someone. Every time I call somewhere, they ask, do you have insurance, and I say yes, but my daughter will not use it. So nobody is leaping to put us on their list.
Back to the topic. NOW I find I am resenting the money. I have spent thousands upon thousands to help her, bail her out, pay her rent, support a lifestyle she insisted on (her own apts. since long before she graduated and only a couple stretches with a roommate; an expensive Volvo that costs a ton to repair -- wouldn't consider buying a small practical import), etc., etc. I sent her to France with all my FF miles I'd accumulated working for years.
Anyway, what makes me sick is that you bet, I'm not feeling unconditional love for my own child right now. I'm struggling to love her at all. I'm resentful, I feel used, and I don't like her.
Money has something to do with it, but mostly, it's the way she treats me. I've just finally faced it. She's abusive.
Breaks my heart.
So I'll do the best I can to heal this, and to reawaken my heart, if we can get into counseling. I do love her. But it's more like loving a memory of a little girl I adored more than anything in the universe. This hostile, belligerent, controlling, sarcastic, entitled adult young woman scares and repels me.
Hops
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(((((((((((((HOPS!)))))))))))))
Love,
tt
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Tough subject - money!
I don't know how to present how I'm thinking presently about this thread and the ownership of money except to toss what I'm thinking into the black hole of fatalism. Not sure it fits anywhere else. What I'm thinking is that whoever has legal possession of a $ is the one who owns it and is the one who gets to say how it will be used/spent. Does that mean it will be spent according to my standards? No. Does it guarantee that the owner of the money spends it in a way that does the most good for the most people? No Does it guarantee that the dollars he has are not ill-gotten gain somewhere in the backwash? Would the acceptance of will-gotten gain have a backlash on me? Just asking. I don't have the answers...
tt
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Hi CB,
You can't really armwrestle anyone into handling money the way you think they should--or to think about money the way you do.
I think a bigger question for me is, what right does one monkey have to monkey with another monkey's money? God gives some excellent counsel about money, but in the end, even He allows people to do with it as they choose or it would appear that way.
This is a hard issue for me to try and dope out with my reductionism thinking. When I think of the greed that has brought this country to its knees, I tend to think free-will, determinism, AND fatalism. No conclusions.
tt
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Hi CB,
Kinda outta left field in this discussion, but, I love to travel & Paris is my favorite city. Go to Paris if you can find the $. There are inexpensive airfares, hotels & food, especially in the off season. I think foreign travel is life changing & gives new perspectives. I know you love history & Europe is packed with it. I hope you can go because I think you'll love it.
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oh... so many values & judgements & "stuff" regarding money... so many emotions about what is usually only 2 different "sides". There is always a middle way... even with money, except when there isn't enough.
Hops, sweetie - I hope, hope, hope that this is a "phase" that you'll both pass through on to another way of being with each other. It has to be hard - for you, to give up your space and to find the right "mom" role... and for the D, who's probably grappling with what she feels is a "failure" and "dependence".
I've been able to sidestep the issue of my hubby not having his own money (in a few short weeks) for a while. Soon, I won't be able to. So far, we've joked about his "allowance" and how he'll have to be "good"... and the potential does exist for power struggles. We haven't really brainstormed a defined solution yet... just have ideas. When I have time to think about it, I almost worry... but I don't think it's going to become a big issue (fingers crossed!). There are so many other changes happening at the same time, I think we'll find "what works" out sheer need.
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Hi Bear,
I'm so sorry you're going thru this, but, let me be a cynical realist for a moment:
How about sitting down with NM & asking her politely to set up a college fund for your D? I believe your NM can give your D $10K (or $11k) tax free each year. Yes, this means you'll have to play the N game, but, how much do you want the $? There are books & movies about children of N parents "playing up" to the N parents in order to get an inheritance. I'm not judging either way. Maybe you want to explore whether you can play up to NM without losing your soul.
In business, I once had someone tell me about the "Golden Rule": he (or she) who has the gold makes the rules. Man, is that ever true. If NM has the gold, then she makes the rules, so the question becomes can you live with her rules? I wish you the best, whichever way you decide.
IMO, Ns use money &/or gifts to control other people, especially their kids. So, IMO, the question becomes do we want to play the N game? Whether we decide to play the N game or not, there are consequences for our decisions. What can we live with & what can't we live with? And, can we get to that point where our own feelings of resentment towards our NPs don't wind up destroying ourselves?
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Hi Bear,
I'm so sorry you're going thru this, but, let me be a cynical realist for a moment:
How about sitting down with NM & asking her politely to set up a college fund for your D? I believe your NM can give your D $10K (or $11k) tax free each year. Yes, this means you'll have to play the N game, but, how much do you want the $? There are books & movies about children of N parents "playing up" to the N parents in order to get an inheritance. I'm not judging either way. Maybe you want to explore whether you can play up to NM without losing your soul.
In business, I once had someone tell me about the "Golden Rule": he (or she) who has the gold makes the rules. Man, is that ever true. If NM has the gold, then she makes the rules, so the question becomes can you live with her rules? I wish you the best, whichever way you decide.
IMO, Ns use money &/or gifts to control other people, especially their kids. So, IMO, the question becomes do we want to play the N game? Whether we decide to play the N game or not, there are consequences for our decisions. What can we live with & what can't we live with? And, can we get to that point where our own feelings of resentment towards our NPs don't wind up destroying ourselves?
This hits a nerve with me (((Ann))). Brilliant , as usual! xxxoo Ami
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Hi Ami!!
Hope you're doing well.
Well, I put on my Machiavellian pragmatic hat to write that post. As I have lurched & tip toed thru the minefield of Nism, here's something I have learned:
a) If someone is an N, and
b) they have money (&/or power), then,
c) they will seek to use that money (&/or power) to control others, especially their kids & employees
If we accept the above, then we should ask ourselves: How much do I need the N's $? How can I innoculate myself from the N's poison if I accept the N's money? Can I walk away from the N & their money & be OK financially & spiritually?
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Ann, I think you've hit on something without saying it directly...
your way of thinking about Ns & money, actually puts "power" back in your corner... by consciously choosing to engage in the Ns game for a specific result (and realizing that even resentment of the N can be a "point" for them)... you are, in reality, protected from the old slinging arrows... free of "games"...
That ties in with the idea I had about "where we are in our work" and our attitudes about money. I see money as a means to an end - what's important to me are the things that money can do... and usually that means what money can do for others I care about. But now, I'm also "allowing" myself to do some things for myself, too. Ordinary things: hair cuts, a new purse, make up... clothes... because I can now finally afford it, without jeorpardizing my "responsibilities". I still don't "want" a whole lot. I'm just not that materialistic, was never into status symbols, and I simply don't understand how some people think that the things they own make them "better" people than others who don't have those things.
The N way of thinking about money, is that it's the money itself that's important... and that it confers some magical, god-like status upon themselves. They actually fear parting with it for that reason, I think. But, I don't envy very wealthy people; never have. They are just people like the rest of us and the only difference is just in the balance in their checking accounts.
It's only money, after all.
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Hey Amber & CB,
Yes: If we need (or want) the N's $ and we can figure out how to do so w/o allowing the N to (as CB says) steal our peace, then go for it. And yes, figuring out a way to make up for the lack of N's $ & not play the N game: priceless.
Amber, you raise a huge realization I've found in my N experience: "by consciously choosing to engage in the Ns game for a specific result (and realizing that even resentment of the N can be a "point" for them)... you are, in reality, protected from the old slinging arrows... free of "games"... ". I guess the key, for me, is choosing consciously whether to play or not play.
CB: I agree about cleaning apts. There's no shame in that, instead, I think it demonstrates immense character that one will do whatever is necessary.
CB, something struck me in your observations of the different families: Like you, I have gone thru the N ringer. However, I now feel that I'm never sure what I observe in a family: The closeness could be enmeshment (which I now see occurred in my family) & the non-closeness among family members may be healthy distance. For me, going thru the N journey has made much of the world into an Escher (the artist) print: I'm not quite sure what I see: closeness or enmeshment.
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I know it's corny, but I'm thinking of attending the Dave Ramsey show's
Financial Peace University in a town 45 minutes from here. It costs about $90.
I already have access to the book and CDs but am thinking something about
the group participation could really be energizing and just what I need to let
go of my "fiscal fears" and actually take better charge of them.
In the very practical sense, it will eat up Sunday nights for a while, and there's
the cost of gas. On the other hand, it feels...positive. Like action to counteract
anxiety.
Anybody have any experience with the program? I know what the steps
are, but just wondered if anyone here has thoughts about it.
thanks,
Hops
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Hops,
I've never done Financial Peace, but I love Dave Ramsey, watch him almost every night. If you call them & explain your situation, they may even waive the fee. He does that for callers to his show.
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Thanks, Ann!
I must be losing it, but I swear I wrote you a post thanking you (belatedly) for your kind words and apologizing for not thanking you by name...earlier...but lord knows what happened to it.
I do appreciate your input and thanks for the suggestion.
I don't know if I'll ask him (lots of folks are harder up than I).
But I'll tell you that my D and I listened to the first CD (she got them from a friend who attended FPU) together tonight, and it was a moment of peace and solidarity for us after a horrible week of squabbling.
I felt so good about it. Maybe that's REALLY his "mission" -- to bring people together with a sense of purpose.
I need to start watching him on TV, not sure my cable lineup (the minimum one) includes it, but I'll check.
Hops
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Thank you, Hops. I just wanted to see if you were OK w/ me. Again, no biggie, no drama. IMO, if one were looking to develop a better relationship with money, Ramsey's the man.
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Hi Hops,
My husband and I just finished FPU! It was good. One of the points Dave Ramsey makes is that you save FIRST for retirement, THEN for your kids' college ... which although college is not really your issue, it does go to the point he makes: You are responsible first to take care of your own old age (so that you don't have to rely on your kids, at least if you can possibly avoid it), and college is not a right, it's a privilege. I say ditto for any help we give our young adult children.
To some of the others that have made comments on this thread ... I was going to make this point yesterday, and I guess failed to press "post" before taking the kids to school: If we stop expecting anything out of Ns, then we will not be disappointed and angry when they just act like themselves. There have been a few posts here about the anger that comes when Ns promise to help and then they either don't do it, or when they help it comes with unbelievable and unreasonable strings attached. I think the anger comes because we keep thinking "OK, now she's changed, she's going to help out" and then she kicks us in the teeth again. IMO, the key to this problem is not to expect anything. If they promise something, don't expect them to follow through. If they do follow through, it's a pleasant surprise, but don't get your hopes up that anything fundamentally has changed. They are still Ns and they will still dangle stuff out there to entice us and then snatch it away in the future. In fact, every once in a while following through on a promise can be a N way of keeping you on the hook.
If your N does follow through, the money or aid given usually comes with unreasonable strings ... they think their money or help gives them the right to run your life and to throw it up to you forever. In this case, you have to be strong enough to recognize when their strings are unreasonable and to ignore them (otherwise it's probably worth going bankrupt to refuse their help). Reasonable strings include things like using the money for the purpose it was given, paying it back in a timely manner if it was a loan, and taking reasonable steps to keep from needing to be bailed out again. Unreasonable strings include thinking they can now criticize you and say anything that comes into their head about your finances or other aspects of your life; that they have a standing invitation to show up without announcement and stay as long as they want ... I could go on and on with the unreasonable strings Ns can attach to their "help".
Hopalong, I feel with you in your distress over your daughter. Young adult children, especially the ones who keep boomeranging back home, are the most difficult stage to know what to do with. IMO it even trumps potty-training as the hardest stage in parenting! And I had three boys, none of whom gained bowel control before their third birthday, so that's saying a lot! I kept mulling over all the things in my mind, whether any of them would be helpful, and have come to the conclusion that I don't know anything you don't. The hard part is not knowing in our heads what to do (set boundaries, insist on being treated with respect, etc.), the hard part is the pain in our hearts.
Love, HoP
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My NM never worked outside the house since I was born. Yet she always complained the family didn't have enough money. She let my dad know this, frequently. When Easter came around she made sure we knew that SHE would go without a new outfit AGAIN, so we could have new ones.
When my great aunt died and left her neices (one being my mom), a substantial inheritance, my Dad casually mentioned that maybe they could take some trips. NM made it perfectly clear that it was HER money. This after my dad carted my great aunt around for years, because she didn't drive.
Years ago, the whole family went on a vacation. First night there, my mother had $165.00 stolen. For the WHOLE rest of the week, all she did was complain, and cry, and said she wished she were dead. My sister kept telling her she could get her the money back, via insurance (which she did) but to no avail.
She is envious of anyone who has more than she does. Over Thanksgiving, she was complimenting me (never did this until recently, I think she's trying to buy her way into heaven) and said that all of us girls (her children) had good taste but my decorating is better because I have cash!!??? Really? Well maybe that's because I got off my ass, went back to school, and decided to work! She has no clue that my BIL makes a better salary than my husband. Anyway, who CARES? Only she does, because she is a jealous, lazy, self absorbed witch.
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To everyone on this thread. THANK YOU!!!!!! You are so on the money!!!! (pun intended)
This give me so much to contemplate and I now may realize that there may be peace for me should my NM's money come into play for me and/or my daughter, or not. Regardless of my NM's view of money and her attempts to control me with it, it does not mean I should live in her N jail for any reason whatsoever. Normal people who decide to give money to those in need or as a gift to someone, etc., they don't hold it over their heads or brag about it nor do they resent the person to whom they gave it to. This is how it should be in life.
I've been in her N jail for a life time and money should not put be back there. I won't let it. I'll take the money and run! Ahhh haaaaa haaaaaa aaahhh haaaaaa!!!!
Bear.
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It's true that normal people don't expect to control you if they lend you money. I've lent my parents money in the past, and you don't see me resorting to N tactics. Normal people actually feel remorse if they're hurting someone's feelings or violating their boundaries.
My NM's money isn't technically "her money" either. She's mooching off my step-dad and even occasionally takes some of my brother's SSI check. She will act as if it's "her money", so she can make me feel guilty. When I feel guilty, it's easier for her to abuse me and hold me emotional hostage (I'm working on that).
However, if you act like "her money" becomes yours..she will rip your head off. I wonder how she would feel if my step-dad says he can abuse her (he's very passive), just b/c he supports her.
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NAS: good point about your step dad and you NM!!
My MN and money: When my daughter was 7 months old, I decided to go back to work part time because we needed the money and my maternity leave income had been long over with. We made a deal with my NM to watch the baby only on Wed, Thurs, and Fri only from 11 to 5:30. We asked her if she would be interested because we could not afford the day care prices in our area so my NM agreed to do it. We offered to pay for her gas to travel to our place, food and arrangements for her to spend the night for the two nights since she lives pretty far and she doesn't like to drive at night.
We also paid my NM to watch the baby, a wage she would have earned at her part time job that she voluntarily works at. At about the 3rd month into her watching our daughter NM and I had a confrontation about her, well, about her being an N, and during her tirade she said, "All my friends think that you guys are ripping me off!! I should be getting paid WAAAYYYY MORE than the pennies you guys give me!!"
When I told my friends and other family members what she said, they are nothing but appalled and said, "what grandmother EXPECTS to get paid for watching their own grandchild????" I don't know of one other than my NM.
Bear
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Ha! Ns are so typical. My NM told me when my children were babies that I should not expect her to be "babysitting all around the clock" because she had a life and, besides, they were my responsibility . . . etc. etc. And, so she often refused to watch them when I asked (I only asked if I was in a pinch and really needed help). And when she did agree to look after them, she, without fail, would arrive at least 30 minutes late so that I could never plan anything.
Then, get this, when they turned 4 years old, she told me that she was no longer interested in them because they were too old. She actually said "I prefer babies and toddlers, NOT 4-year-olds." Needless to say, I counted my lucky stars and quickly went NC.
Blah! Ns are just yucky.
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Ha! Ns are so typical. My NM told me when my children were babies that I should not expect her to be "babysitting all around the clock" because she had a life and, besides, they were my responsibility . . . etc. etc. And, so she often refused to watch them when I asked (I only asked if I was in a pinch and really needed help). And when she did agree to look after them, she, without fail, would arrive at least 30 minutes late so that I could never plan anything.
Then, get this, when they turned 4 years old, she told me that she was no longer interested in them because they were too old. She actually said "I prefer babies and toddlers, NOT 4-year-olds." Needless to say, I counted my lucky stars and quickly went NC.
Blah! Ns are just yucky.
Butterfly, OMG! That is so bad. How has it been going since you went NC? How long has it been? And does your NM call you or try to get involved with your kids? I have been really contemplating it for some time now and I battle with the guilt and feeling sad for my daughter and the grandma relationship thing.
Bear
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Hi, Bear. Going on two years at NC/LC, mostly NC except for some nasty emails from NM and NF. As I learned more and more about N, I began to change not only how I handled my relationship with NM but how I lived my own life. Since NMs behavior included extreme control over the money, livelihoods, and social circles of her children, you can imagine how she hated it when I progressively became independent of her financially and socially. I also got an education late in life. So, all those things really helped me to distance myself. I watched my siblings deteriorate and become unable to support themselves, hold jobs, or even function on a day-to-day basis because of her abuse and control. They live with NM in her house, and they are in there late thirties/early forties, so, . . . I guess that speaks for itself.
As my life progressed, NM's behavior deteriorated to the point where she was verbally abusive to me on a regular basis, and she did this in front of my children. That, basically, is what made me realize what a destructive person she was for me and my family. So, I don't have guilt about my children not having a relationship with grandmom. I only wish I went NC sooner so that my kids would have no memories of her. In my heart I know that encouraging my children to have a relationship with someone abusive, destructive and hurtful cannot bring anything positive to their lives. The only thing that I really miss is having someone who thinks my kids are special and amazing and would help them, visit them, love them--all the things a loving grandparent would do. But, I know that my NM would not do those things--she is only interested in what my kids can do for her, how they make her look to her church friends, and how much attention they would pay to her.
As for the money, I feel much better knowing I can make it on my own without her. And, if she disinherits me, oh, well.
She does send an occasional email, but most of the sentences start with I and all of the pronouns are me, my and mine. Then, she will close by saying, "Call us if you need us, we're here for you dear" or some such yuck as if I am some sort of prodigal daughter who left the family fold. I will say, this, though--the more I stay away, the more clearly I can see the dysfunction and abuse for what it is/was.
No regrets.
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She does send an occasional email, but most of the sentences start with I and all of the pronouns are me, my and mine. Then, she will close by saying, "Call us if you need us, we're here for you dear" or some such yuck as if I am some sort of prodigal daughter who left the family fold. I will say, this, though--the more I stay away, the more clearly I can see the dysfunction and abuse for what it is/was.
No regrets.
Awesome. I can relate eventhought I have not gone NC. I'm a little LC right now but it's touch and go. The less I talk with my NM the less she calls me and says she's too busy to talk with me as her home renovations have begun and the $20,000 improvements are fantastic, her dream of dreams. Nice.
I think NM's can't fathom us being NC so they talk about themselves out of nervousness or something....can't really explain it.
Interesting thread...I like it.
Bear
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Bear,
I'm a little LC right now but it's touch and go. The less I talk with my NM the less she calls me and says she's too busy to talk with me as her home renovations have begun and the $20,000 improvements are fantastic, her dream of dreams. Nice.
I can relate to the infrequent calls upon LC. I, too, initially received little contact from NM when I stopped having much to do with her. But, after about 6 months, all of a sudden, I received a quite a few calls and emails all intended to 1) let me know that she was not affected by my silence, 2) berate and humiliate me for not contacting her enough, 3) criticize my life, family, job, house . . . . I put my foot down and simply told her the "rules" for contact if she wanted to hear from me. (be polite, no screaming, no criticisms, etc., nothing too overly taxing) But, she was not able to follow the rules. Thereafter, when my response was to not respond to her nasty communications, I received a large check in the mail. Wonder of all wonders. I kept the money, but, I still did not increase my contact. I am sure that this loss of control over me made her insane.
Truly, I don't miss her at all. I am learning that I am the only one who can fill the empty place left behind in her wake. Tough stuff.
Joy
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Wow Butterfly. That must have made her REALLY insane! The money issues continue and today I go a phone call from my brother about my NM sending him a gift. He told me verbatim what she said and I just wanted to drive to her house and punch her lights out :shock:
It's such a long convoluted story. Basically, she wants praise and compliments for giving us gifts or money, etc. NM wants nothing but glorification for her supposed "gift" giving act. It's so sick.
I believe she has no gifts to give since she has no gifts on the inside of her. And we can't thank her enough when we do thank her for her so-called "gifts." She will always feel empty as we can not fill that void where her supposed "giftedness" would be inside of her-- so our thanks go into a deep, dark hole of nothingness. She had no gift to begin with so that's why she will always feel empty and no matter how much we glorify her, she will turn around and say, "you kids aren't appreciative of what I bought/gave you." The woman's appetite to feel validated is insatiable.
NM is so selfish.
Bear
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I wanted to bump this subject because I have an present issue and need some advice.
As you may be aware, my NM has a significant amount of money at the present moment and is basically, well, an N with money and awful! LOL! Anyways, almost 2 years ago, me, my husband and daughter had to move 500 miles away from friends and family due to his job. We haven't been home since because of our budget (I was forced to quit my job) and would love to go home this summer to see everyone including part of my husbands family who lived close to us back home.
When talking with my NM on the phone yesterday about us not being able to visit this year, she became upset. She wasn't upset at me, per se, even after I told her plain and simple, "No mom, we aren't coming at all," but stated that she needed to see us and her granddaughter (given I never invite her up here to see us because of her Nism! :shock:).
She told me that she would pay for us to rent a beach house back home for a week with "no questions asked." I WAS SHOCKED!! :shock: :shock: :? But I said NO!! I kept saying no but she pleaded and asked me if she could explain herself. So my NM went on to say that we would need a place of our own so that family and friends can come to us. In other words, we wouldn't have to worry about driving around a 90 mile radius with a 2 year old just to see everyone. Also, there is really nobody that we can stay with except for my husbands brother, who's wife (who I think is an N herself) hasn't been that pleasant to me over the years and I don't feel comfortable staying with them for an extended period of time-- even if they are family (note: my husband and I argue about this a lot and I feel like the bad guy by not wanting to stay with them).
My NM said that she's going to write me a check, etc., and really tried to sell me on the idea. She was practically begging me which was an odd feeling. :?
Truth is, this is what we need. We need to see friends and family and need a vacation back home. I was in tears that we couldn't go. Her proposal sounds so damn appealing and so tempting. I feel that I deserve that she give this to us and I don't care what she thinks in the aftermath. I want her to give us her money for what she's done to me. I know, horrible to say but it's true. I know, I know, I know she will hold this over my head and become a total N but what else is new? At least we can use her money wisely and enjoy ourselves -- to a degree.
I feel like the ultimate selfish person by feeling this way and wanting to take her up on the offer. She has never wanted to help us at all but I know that by her paying our way, she will get what she wants as well. Ooooh, this is bad.....you scratch my back I'll scratch yours, and with an N???
I would like your input: the good, the bad and the ugly.
Bear
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Also, what do you think she will be getting if you take her up on her offer? Her own way? Or a way of making you let her see her granddaughter? Is it control that she's after, do you think?
CB: NM may very well be seeking control with her offer as she often does with money. But I do know that she is desperate to see her granddaughter and wants to babysit her as me and husband go see friends, etc. We have done that before (without her money) and survived, albeit, she is an N so her Nism leaks out regardless of money or no money involved.
You know what you are getting into if you take the money. Neither decision will be the end of the world, but you may be giving up a lot of peace if you take it. How does your husband feel about the offer? Are you getting any pressure either way from him?
CB: you made me think here. My husband does not like the idea of taking her money because he says that she needs it for her retirement, etc. I just tell him that it does not interest me whatsoever if she has retirement money or not, that is not our job to worry about that for her and if she wants to give us a gift, then maybe we should consider it. He does remain somewhat open minded about it though. Thank you CB for giving me something to think about.
You also said:
I feel that I deserve that she give this to us and I don't care what she thinks in the aftermath. I want her to give us her money for what she's done to me.
Bear,
I have heard this said on the board many times by many different posters--and I wonder if, as people are giving their input to you, if they can also share why they feel this way
Can any of you on this board share with me why you feel as I do about this? And how it plays out in situations like this one??
Thanks,
Bear
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Ami: If you're around the board today, I think it was you and a few others who stated this (if I'm not mistaken). I'd like your input anyways.
Part of me feels like I'd be using her for the money and part of my feels justified and eager to do it for friends and family. The "using" part may be my whole paranoid reaction to things, like if I indulge, then I'll get punished!!
*sigh**
Just more thinking..
Bear
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bear,
It is so hard for me to say what I would think or feel, because even if we all have relationships with N mothers, yours is unique. I am tempted to say, "Take the beach house and when she tries to hold it over your head, remind her how much she begged you to take it and how it was a GIFT!" But honestly, I don't know how well you can avoid feeling guilty (which would be getting sucked back into an unhealthy interaction with her) when (not IF) she holds this gift over your head.
My husband is a healthy person but honestly he will tell you that he has a bit of N himself. (Just the fact that he has always recognized this in himself and consciously works on it tells me that he is not a real N). Anyway, he has the ability to let his N mother's comments (designed to make him feel guilty) roll off of him like water off a duck's back. While I will get mad at my Nmil's antics, he just says, "Oh, that's just mother" and honestly ignores her! So I can see how for SOME people, they could take the gift your mom is offering and totally repel her efforts to suck you back into her N world. If you can do that, I say take the darned beach house. if you can't ... NOTHING NOTHING NOTHING is worth your peace and stability.
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rereading my last post, what I meant is although we all have relationships with N mothers, EACH ONE OF OUR RELATIONSHIPS IS UNIQUE. I didn't state it very well the first time.
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Heart:
You said it perfectly. I am aware of all of it and needed to put those thoughts into the right place for this issue. Your husband is a lot like mine. He has the ultimate N brother and can let it all roll off his back, they even have a great relationship because my husband has the ability to make fun of his N brother to his face and they both laugh hysterically.
the gift your mom is offering and totally repel her efforts to suck you back into her N world. If you can do that, I say take the darned beach house. if you can't ... NOTHING NOTHING NOTHING is worth your peace and stability.
I realize now why I'm in this position with my NM. It's because I'm LC and not ready for NC just yet. Things are really complicated family wise and LC feels right for me at this time. But how this LC prompts issues such as this is just predictable to say the least. I know that if I take the beach house, she will want some control and if I don't she will use my refusal not to give me anything or help us money wise because I "rejected" her gift, etc.
Thank you for your words of wisdom HofP. You are helping me and I appreciate that!! :) :)
Bear
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:D
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I think Heart's advice is reasonable. Can you take the money without giving her control? Or will she, instead of giving you the cash, try to make the beach house arrangements for you? Uggh. That would be bad.
When faced with an offer of cash, I took it and ran with it. I did not feel guilty nor have I spoken to her since. Feels good! Oh, yeah.
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It sounds like she gave it a whole bunch of prior thought and is really insistent on it -- you'll have to go to find out what the kicker is,but I bet there is one. How do you pack for an ambush?
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It sounds like she gave it a whole bunch of prior thought and is really insistent on it -- you'll have to go to find out what the kicker is,but I bet there is one. How do you pack for an ambush?
Oh! LOL!!! Yep. This is what is true! Can't pack the appropriate arsenal for this one!! Maybe just a lot of alcohol and pills!!
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I was thinking a lot of really high-grade chocolate. :wink:
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Hi Phoenix:
I was was emotionally abandoned by my mom... and the only way she knew how to communicate "caring" to me - was through things; OBJECTS. To this day, objects - material things - represent emotions for her.
This is very true but for my Mom, but a little different for me. My grandmother was a widow w/ 5 kids at age 41 and had lost the family home in a bomb/fire three years earlier when the British bombed my Mothers German countryside town. Later in my Mom's 20s, I think she was/felt abandoned because my Granma was not able to help her with an education. She came to the US, cried every nite about not having an education. My NM eventually married and had kids. She never did get her education but married a man with one (that was the 60s) and they were big on education. So, my NM feels she did the right thing by pushing/paying for our education. Now, the problem is that since she was abandoned by her Mother financially and hated her for it (NM wont admit these feelings, but I can tell by her response to certain questions how she feels) I think she vowed to herself to help her kids whenever possible, but she does it by giving and demeaning at the same time. What shes done and the way shes done it was to rectify her own childhood issues rather than treat me and my brother capable individuals. Its really cruel.
((((Phoenix)))) sounds like you're on top of it...but I know it hurts nonetheless.
All the best to you, Alesia
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Hi Bear - How about this - if NC means No Contact, why not define LC as Limits Conditions rather than limited contact? I'm torn on whether to accept the beach house, but what I can propose is that if you decide to take the beach house, why not put a few limits and conditions on it? Explain to your NM that you'd like to accept the gift, but want to establish some guidelines. If the guidelines bother her then she is trying to lure you and control you and you can avoid the trap up front.
Just my two cents. Holler at me if you think I am missing something!
All the best to you, Alesia
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Ales: thank you! I actually thought of doing that. Since she's opened the discussion about it, I can be my strong self and tell her that there are conditions, i.e., I want everyone to visit us, even my dad and his wife and if she doesn't like it then it's out. However, since I'm going back to therapy on Thursday, I'm going to talk to my therapist about the issue.
Thank you for helping me.
Bear.
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Bear - how did it go w/ the beach house? Did your T have other advice? Anything you can/care to share? Hope all is well with you! Best, Alesia
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Yes Bear, I hope all is well here. I'm here to listen if you post on this.