Voicelessness and Emotional Survival Message Board
Voicelessness and Emotional Survival => Voicelessness and Emotional Survival Message Board => Topic started by: Hopalong on December 09, 2009, 10:55:31 PM
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I'm sorry I yanked the Ns and Money general thread off into my own cri$is...
over there is great thinking about a huge thing.
So here, just my thanks, and a space to continue discussing what's going on with my D when I need to
Sweet TT, much appreciated. Not thinking too straight just now but I think maybe I'm thinking too much about the thinking!
Amber, babe. You seer. Thank you for tuning in on the shock of having this loud explosion in my space, so recently reclaimed (a bit) after my mother's death, surviving the first wave of my brother's assualt. You are spot on. It has been a shock.
Dear CB:
Every single time I'm in crisis you have, for a couple years now, offered the very same thing:
- kindness
calm
great, real wisdom (I always have a sense of watching a great chef moving when you turn over and stir the pieces of parenting life...seeing someone who knows all the ingredients by touch and works with them so naturally)
steady vision
deep spiritual generosity
a heart big enough to absorb hurt with a hug left over
I love you. One day, I'm Texas bound!
And to everybody else who chimed in over there, I feel so lucky to be stimulated and provoked to process instead of panic...by such GOOD THINKERS.
love,
Hops
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You are most welcome, Hops. I KNOW that in the end, it will be just fine. This chapter of the story has a happy ending, despite all the danger, adventure, and misadventure involved in getting there. You are wise and gentle and loving and that will carry the day through your D's storms. (and patience has a way of restoring itself...)
We all have those moments when we need someone else to think for us, support our right to our feelings, and well... the way I've been putting it lately is, I just need a MOM. That's the beauty of the group of amazons here! We do that for each other.
Something else... the ugly, hurtful, resentful things your D said to and about you. H and I have been there, too. When it happened, I was totally shocked and ready to be done with her... but our relationship was strong enough and deep enough that it could survive this and actually come out better in the long run, because we did "go there". That evolved into the rule, that we are allowed to tell each other ANYTHING and even if one (or both) of us are angry that doesn't void the fact that we love each other and will always have a relationship. That simply doesn't change, though many other things can and will.
There is something I learned late; something I should've learned as a child but couldn't in my dysfunctional family. Being angry with each other doesn't mean that the relationship is about to end; it doesn't mean the relationship has to end to resolve the conflict. For me, I get angry when I love someone and I know they can be/do something I consider "better" or "wiser" for themselves... but they don't see that or don't want to try. People - including our kids - can't be "made" to do what we want (no matter what the freakin' Ns think!)
What got me out of that horrible position was applying your concept of Releasing the Outcome. I got to say my piece about a situation and ended with: "that's what I think, anyway... what you decide to do, is up to you". And then, the choice and responsibility for the "outcome" rests solely with H. I don't want to be the mother hen, fluttering all around her and being the one "responsible" for her life... even tho' that's my reflex most of the time. And she won't let me, anymore. That just gets me in over my head... intrudes on her learning process and her boundaries. Sure, I could (and do) share some of what I've learned here and in therapy - when asked... but I remind H that we are different... our lives are different... our solutions (and how we get there) are different; what we need is different.
Ds need to hear that, repeatedly from moms. It's some sort of magical mantra that conveys confidence and ownership of themselves... self-efficacy: I CAN do that.
All that said, H is facing some of the same issues as your D. She's pointed out that even working two jobs, she is barely able to make her rent and feed herself and her dogs/kitty. While I've pointed out that this is quite an accomplishment, given this recession and the decrease in jobs/increased competition for fewer jobs... she's over the romantic, idealistic image of bohemian life. She wants a relationship; marriage; kids; but she's done with charming, but shiftless boy-men who have no goals in life (and no goals to have dreams/goals). She is 2-3 years out of a very bad marriage, followed by a whole series of just as bad relationships. In that time, she learned to better define her boundaries - and also her goals.
And shortly, I'll be trying to help her get to the "next level" too. And we'll be trying to figure out what/where the boundaries of "help" is, this time around too. You and I can compare notes & lean on each other, huh Hops?
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Ah, Hopsy....you are sweet, but I am not near so calm and thoughtful as you think....lots to tell you about my thinking processes these days, but I have to be at work in 40 minutes and I am sitting here with ratty hair and must run to the shower.
Wanted to say hello and I am thinking of you before I go... you are going to be fine--D is going to be fine. There is a huge life lesson for you here and you are about to burst into a spacious place.
You are much on my mind today--I'll write more later.
CB
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So sorry to see you're struggling, my friend.
I agree with CB...... these are life lessons....
they'll eventually pass.
In the meantime, I understand the despair and pain you're going through.
Your adult d is acting like an abusive manipulative child.
Time to be mama.....
set boundaries and enforce consequences.
I have to ask....
if you were responding to someone in the same situation.....
what advice would you give?
(((((Hops))))))
Mo2
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((((((((((((((((((((((Hops)))))))))))))))))))))
So sorry your issues are ongoing. Stay strong and true. You are such a good person. There will be a break soon.
Love, Beth
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Just want to say thank you again even before I can verbalize it properly...
I am so moved by the knowledge, sympathy, understanding and compassion.
Not to mention hope from sources I trust.
I need to write you each and I will...bear with me.
I found I couldn't just pour out more right away, that was quite a mouthful/heartful.
I just need to let it rest a little before I pick up the narrative but I want you to know how very much I appreciated, and noted, every single thing you've said to me.
Amazons with huge hearts.
love to each of you, and I hope you each know...more as soon as I can find the words.
gratefully,
Hops
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Hops, I'm here for you as well! (((((((((((((((((hugs)))))))))))))))))))) I'm sorry I'm late in responding. You are such a good person and I'm sorry for these issues you have to deal with. Life is, well, life. Nobody said it would be easy.
Hang in there.
Bear
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Hi M02,
Thank you for the love and the understanding. You're right M02, she's been abusive. But the label doesn't get us anywhere.
I've never been so flat out of advice in my life. You ask a great question but I think the only thing I could say is, compassion. I don't know what actions that would take. I have to have it for myself too but her pain must be so immense. It's tourniquet time and I'm standing here with a Bandaid.
Hi Ann and Beth and Bear,
Thank you for popping up and for your kindness. Beth, I needed to hear I'm a good person, but I don't want to believe that's an answer. It's small comfort but a real one.
Thank you Ann, for your kind words.
And Bear...Sometimes just being reminded that life just is what it is, in all its reality, is a drink of water. Not a cold one, just a wet one. Thanks.
Hi Amber...
I am going to have to have faith in your faith about my D and me, because mine is almost destroyed.
There is a woman at my church who haunts me. About 10 years older than I am. There was a conflict with her children over a trust fund, she said the wrong thing, did something they found unfair ... and they're gone from her life. They have dropped her. It is NC. She is not allowed to see her grandchildren. She's a wraith. For years, I've seen her walking around the church (she pours her energy into the grounds) and when we talk, she cries. It's like an amputation. She cannot think of anything else. Her heartbreak is so raw, just as powerful as it was when she first described her situation.
I am terrified of becoming this woman.
Hi CB...
We didn't cosleep, my D was popped in her crib from the first night, since I didn't think I could handle losing additional sleep. I had always had panic attacks, etc., if I didn't get enough rest. I am wondering if we didn't bond right. Or how else I've harmed her. I know there are a hundred ways.
We had our first counseling session yesterday. (She has agreed to 1 more.) She told the C how she doesn't want to be living here but had no choice. I told the C it was because free shelter was all I could offer her. I said how it felt when my D sent me emails calling me a f**ing moron, a selfish bitch, a stupid bitch. The C asked her, Do you want to hurt your mother? D said, I am very resentful and bitter. Then she talked about how I was never a mother to her, but only a friend and companion and how she felt I asked her to handle things she couldn't handle at the time her father died (I asked her if she wanted to see his body before the cremation). The worst one is, I did not go to his memorial service. I knew both his other wives would be there and D's aunts and uncles and cousins and I had a critical meeting in another state. I had been with her at his bedside, been with her the days after, met with her, her stepmother, the minister, helped plan the service, been there at the hospital...but for the service itself, I wasn't there. Later on we had another small private service at my church (the one she was raised in) and installed a stone marker for him...not enough. I agree. I should have been there.
Then she told the C that she wants a divorce from me.
Last night I was just sitting here feeling the heartbreak, so I called Gennulman. My D had given him a ride home a couple weeks ago and he'd told me she talked to him for 2 hours. I didn't pry and just told him I was glad she'd had someone to pour it out to. Anyway, he decided to tell me about their conversation and I decided I was not going to stop him. I can't sit alone with the pain any more and he's my only friend who's spent any time with her. Most of it I knew already. She told him I am a horribly selfish person, and she does not want to take care of me in any way because then she'd be doing exactly what I did. She also does not want to get a job here in town to make any contribution because if she starts working here, she'll be committed and trapped with me. He told her, you can waitress and leave the job the next month if you had to. She has fantasies that she'll be hired in another city and they'll pay for her move. (I had this happen for one job in my entire career, and it was management, not entry level.)
But I was nearing 50 and my mother was in her late 80s when I moved back...my D is 29. I have no expectations or fantasies at all that she should be living with me and "taking care of me" now. And I have long-term-care insurance so she won't have to take care of me later. She still looks at our two situations (my past one with her grandmother and her present one) as the exact same thing. Disasters.
I can understand why they merge in her mind, but I don't want that for her. I want her to be happy, to go off and build her own happy separate life. And then just visit. When I'm very old, sure, I dream it'd be nice to be with her or near her...but that's not such an unusual idea. I won't be planning on it though.
He said what disturbed him most was the way she walls off every single exit for herself. He went through every reasonable thing a person might do, or begin, in circumstances that feel as desperate as hers and she said No, I won't or No, I can't to every single one. (Remember, he's been homeless.) And, she blamed me for everything that's wrong in her life. It all came back to me, no matter what the issue was.
He was also disturbed by the way he'd heard her talking to me when we were all 3 driving together one day. She had just shut me off and talked to me with a great deal of contempt.
He said he'd gently pushed back with her, and though she was courteous, she discarded every suggestion he made.
I'm feeling afraid and hurt. I've lost (left) marriages, made fatal errors (moving in with NMom), been dumped by friends, chosen the wrong work, etc, etc.
If I lose my only child I lose the person I love more than anyone in the world and I'm not sure there'd be much point left in life. But if she hates me to the point that she'll talk to me and about me the way she does, I guess I've lost her anyway.
She's 29.
Is she likely to change her mind?
Two lights in the darkness: she's looking for counseling for herself too. She did agree to one more appointment.
The C impressed me and there was a quality of intelligence and great focus. She is paralysed and in a wheelchair. I felt safe with her. I will go anywhere, do anything, to try to heal this.
This is a whole new category of hurt. I will endure it because that's what you do, but I would far rather feel that there's something, anything, I can do to help change it.
love,
Hops
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Here's the way I look at such situations: #1, we know that her behavior is not good for you ... but we also know that being allowed to behave badly is not good for her either. However you want to describe it ... her being a jerk, abusive, or badly behaved ... it is doing her harm as well as you.
So, you made mistakes when she was growing up. Did you do the best that you knew how to do at the time? I suspect that you did (or you would not be so torn up now about the possibility of a ruptured relationship). What else could you do but the best you knew how to do? Every parent alive screws up. Our screw-ups do not give our adult children license to disrespect us.
It seems to me that the reason daughters and sons posting on this board go NC is because their parent continues to live in denial about their bad behavior. It is not usually because of past deeds (although some past deeds, like when mothers tolerate their children being abused and do nothing, qualify as grounds for NC). NC is usually a drastic solution to ongoing misery perpetrated by the N parents.
Not only on this thread, but elsewhere, Hops, you have shown that you examine yourself and are dedicated to healing and improving your relationships. I just don't see you becoming that woman you are terrified of being. I suspect there's a lot more to her story than she's telling.
I think setting boundaries with our adult children is even harder than setting them with our N parents. They will always be our babies and when they run over us it's hard to separate out our babies from the adults that are behaving badly. However, I still think "good fences make good neighbors" and it is only when everybody observes healthy boundaries that a good realtionship can exist.
I feel for you because you are dealing with this alone. I am glad you have your gentleman friend to at least see your side of it. It sounds like he has tried to help out, even though not being the dad or the husband he doesn't have any real power.
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OH HOPS!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
I can't say anything else, yet. Still processing what you wrote.
Both Heart & Ann have made a good start, though. I'll think on this while I finish packing the truck and be back.
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Dear Hops,
Sending you mega hugs and best wishes.
Love,
tt
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CB, All I can say is WOW. I concur with everything you said but never in a thousand years could I have said it as well as you.
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(((((Hops)))))
Every time I try to put something into words, it doesn't well convey what I mean. Add to that my tween constantly singing/babbling... :shock:
I care, and I hope your D can find it within herself to keep trying.
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Dear Hops,
Yes, to everything CB said.
CB,
You can be my counselor any day!
Love to both of you,
tt
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Pilgrim, thank you for such generosity of spirit. I felt forgiven for my parenting mistakes (and others too) when I read your post. I know we need to forgive ourselves but I sometimes "dish it out and forget to take it". A boost in that direction really makes a difference. Thank you for that, and for the "good fences" reminder, too.
Ann, for both "oppositional" (spot on) and "letting go" - to let her work it all through...thank you.
PR, TT, Cantors...it's not only elaborated opinions that matter, it's also just hearing voices of support. Like more logs on the fire...they keep the warmth coming. Thank you so much for chiming in. XXXOOO.
CB,
It has taken me two days to even begin to try to thank you. Words (my stock in trade) just dried up every time I tried to articulate how valuable your story was and is to me, and how incredibly compassionate and heartening your perspective on my story is. For both my struggling, beloved, difficult daughter and for me.
Thank you. I only have to think about you being more or less imprisoned by your Nex (even in a beautiful place), walled off from your own joy, neglected and criticized and stifled all at once, for so many many years...and THEN to think about your radiant growth and courage and risk-taking and new love and bravery in business and thinking and in everydamnthing else today...to know that your reassurance is hard won and reality based.
I know it's not always smooth sailing for you. It couldn't be, your life is truly complex! (Translate: Mon-Wed-Fri overwhelming, Tu-Th-Sat rich, or something like that.) A beautiful theme just keeps running through...like a river. I hope you know how deep your sources feel to a friend, how profoundly refreshing. You somehow do this with all the heart of someone who once had a traditional faith, and now allows the originality and openness of your own evolving interpretations to quicken the faith of someone (me) who really needs your open-mindedness and respect for rebellion. THANK YOU. You do reinforce my sense of not wanting to throw the baby out with the bathwater, spiritually speaking, and you've got a great grip on that soapy baby!
(If I've totally lost you, well, that's why I couldn't write for two days...I get totally scrambled trying to convey how valuable you are.)
That was totally inarticulate. But I hope some of it got through...I am inspired by you in so many ways it's hard to sum it up.
I'm so grateful to trust and accept your reassurance. Thanks too, for the additional childhood detail. I didn't really remember that about your Dad. And that story helped me a lot to realize how profound my daughter's loss has been. It was always a mental adjustment, once I had divorced him...such a relief to me, such a life-changer for her. I really am beginning to sort out things I can sincerely apologize to her for (with benefit of hindsight and without self loathing) and also the things about which I may need to tell her: Look, this falls under the I-Am-Just-Human rubric, so you will have to work that through on your own, as I will never be able to give you perfect satisfaction or some kind of compensation for that disappointment or hurt.
I think in terms of spirituality about this. My D has a long road to go, and I believe her adamant atheism and anti-sentimentality is actually walling her off from good clear sources of strength and hope at the moment. And with age, and life, and some easing of her present pains...it may take a decade, but I do believe she will do some healing. And I haven't forgotten what an amazing person she has the capacity to be.
Meanwhile, my job is to release the outcome. (Thanks for so often reminding me of my faith in that, PR...I forget my own best shtick.)
love and gratefulness to all of you,
Hops
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Thank you for your posts. It is so easy to say,"Why didn't she just walk away?" Well, it just is not that easy. There is so much wreakage to deal with. Much of it is not in our control. No matter how much I would like to be there for my daughter when she was five and left with her dad, I cant undo it. A lot of what she feels continues to be non-verbal and she cant just lay it out for me to understand in an orderly fashion. Instead, it is sudden moods of anger and vengeful behaviour. Finally, I learned that letting her go and express these messy emotions did have an end. The healing started to happen when I stopped acting defensively. I asked her to tell me about what life was like for her. And then I would say, "anything else?" And she poured out things and events that were so hard to hear.
Of course I was absent during my abusive marriage. Of course I was absent after horrible chaos carnivals with my mother and sister. She was the innocent and vulnerable witness to it all. I was in huge denial about the impact of all this on my daughter. Naively and ignorantly I believed that children are resilient. They aren't. I could not bear the rage that would erupt out of her from time to time and actually preferred her numbed out, compliant self. Finally, she cut me out of her life and acted like I was a monster. This was horribly painful and incomprehensible to me. I did not understand her side of the story. Neither of us are monsters.
I had to admit that because I was consumed with these screwed up relationships with my mother and my husbands, I had failed to be present, alive, responsible , proactive with my daughter. This cuts like a knife. I tried to be wonder mom but I was faking it and she knew.
Accepting her for who she is and with the feelings that she has helped me get past the banishment. She slowly let out her pain and I held on for dear life. How hard it is to love someone who is in pain and attacking. But I am accountable, even if I was doing the best I knew how. I was a victim and I was trapped like a spider in a web. This is not the best stance for parenting. We went through the nightmares together. We talk about them bit by bit. There is no roadmap. All I know is that she calls me twice a week and we talk and laugh and she shares pretty much her whole life with me now. Slowly, she is beginning to trust me not to get hooked up with another narcissist. It was very lonely for her when I did..
She is coming for Christmas with her husband. He acts like he has heard the stories of the dark side of her life with me. I am tired of bridge buiding but it takes a long time to rebuild trust.
This is just my story. It is different for everybody. No judgement.
Love,
Sea storm
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Hops, I'm sorry I ran off like that - my life doesn't have many slow times right now and I was without the 'net for a few days also.
This may come as a total non-sequitor (especially after CBs brilliant story of moms & daughters) - but I still feel like it might connect a few dots for you...
one way I learned to "cope", in the Twiggy-era, was to become hard as nails - strong as ox - able to take a licking and keep on ticking... "I don't care" and "I don't NEED you (or any help) or __________" ... was my battle cry. I learned to pre-empt all possibility of being hurt further - by rejecting first.
I'm only beginning to realize that it's because I'm sensitive, easily hurt (or moved empathetically), and maybe even "delicate" in some ways (tho this would make everyone who knows me well laugh till they peed themselves)... and that it was the fear of revealing this to the one(s) who could (or did) hurt me the most... that KEPT me STUCK there.
Illusion. Samsara. Not reality.... and it causes problems NOW that repeat the old echoes of the past, when I slip into that. It's very very very difficult to even see this the first time and get that A-ha in my head... and harder still to be aware enough of it when it sneaks in, as I go about my day/life. The only way I have right now, is to remember that I am a marshmallow... and that's OK... and it doesn't necessarily follow logically, that being a marshmallow means I'll be squashed, abused, and hurt so deeply. I don't need my tough girl armor anymore to protect myself.
Try reminding your D, that she doesn't either....
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Sea Storm,
Thank you for sharing this. You emit forgiveness in both directions. I am so glad for your examples.
What confuses me is when to NOT say "What else?" because it might be an invitation to more abuse. But in the counseling sessions, I will hear her, because her cruelty is somewhat mitigated by the presence of a third party.
Thank you again so much. I am going to keep saying this to myself when I'm around her, "What else?" It also helps to remember that I'm not a monster even though I did fail her.
PR, thanks...I know she's brittle and breakable. Just 2 days before she went Mr. Hyde and began attacking me, she'd literally wept in my arms about the boyfriend, she felt so broken. I think there's a connection. Being comforted by me made her shaky boundaries just dissolve. She doesn't have a clear sense of self, so even though I offer love, she reacts as though it's Kryptonite.
Yesterday she said to the T, I just want to get out of here and never look back. The T said all she could see coming from D was hostility and punishment. I would say heartfelt, loving things and my D would just keep going, here's what ELSE I blame you for. Feels like facing a tsunami with a teaspoon. But she agreed to one more appointment, so I'm very grateful for that.
I'm okay in the daytime, but at night, my chest hurts. Heartbreak is so physical.
love,
Hops
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Dear Hops,
I'm okay in the daytime, but at night, my chest hurts. Heartbreak is so physical.
My prayer for you is that the tears and the pain you feel now will return in joy.
Love,
tt
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((((Hops and dd)))))
My prayers go out to you both.
Mo2
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I've been avoiding updating this thread, and can't at length because I am supposed to be writing a piece that deadlines tomorrow...but it will help to say a little. I want to check out whether I'm just stuck in self-pity.
The overt aggression and hostility from my D has lowered a lot. What remains seems to be an effort to damage me that she acts out in passive ways. The theme is the same (I hate being here, I hate living with you, and you are the source of everything wrong with my life). But behaviors are:
--I ask her to vacuum, so I can then mop. (I can do the one, but not the both, because of my back.) I leave a polite note. Twice. She ignores it. So...she just...won't.
--She dirties a big blender thingie (VitaMix) and leaves it dirty. For days. When she came I said that because we share the kitchen with our tenants, that's one important rule: leave the shared kitchen immaculate. So, I leave her a note. I fill it with soapy water. I leave another note: Please clean it now. She ignores it. So I did it. (The message I get? You say the sky is blue, I say F*** you.)
Those are minor. She does grocery shop because that's when she gets cash from me. And occasionally cooks something.
The major one: I set her up with a friend, who offered to create a real, temporary (5-6 month) FT job for her. Exactly the kind of thing she CAN do (and originally told me she wanted--a data entry kind of thing). His company is walking distance from our house. (She uses my car--just tells me, I'm taking you to work because I want the car today.) He arranged the interview. Afterward, she emailed me: I interviewed there so now you can get off my back about it. He emailed me: We were quite confused because while she was very intelligent and polite and we are ready to offer her the job, she told us: I'm not sure I want this job. (Out of pure kindness--and his concern for me--they offered her a week to decide.) I believe she's turned it down. He wrote me again and I told him I just had to stay out of it, thanked him, and told him I hoped she'd make the right choice.
I was so stunned--very angry. Because she's so venomous about wanting nothing to do with me or anything I "network" for her, I can't let her know that the CEO wrote me and told me what she said. I haven't said a word to her about it. So, I know what she did, she doesn't know I know, and she just emailed me that she needs more money for cat food. She is doing the occasional focus group (she didn't tell me this, but told my tenant's wife. She tells me nothing about anything she does, just--I have an appointment so I'm taking the car.) So, she's earning a little bit here and there. And keeps it secret. I do know she's had a few days substitute teaching (I drop her off) and one cat-sitting job with a friend of mine (whom she criticized nonstop).
Given that I'm struggling so hard financially, knowing that she intentionally sabotaged a job interview and refused to take an opportunity that WOULD allow her to: help me with expenses, save herself, and do exactly what she claims she WANTS (get enough money to leave) -- I felt betrayed. Used.
It really has been the biggest shock. Gennulman, my friend who spent 2 hours listening to her once early after she arrived, when she told him she didn't want a job here because that would "trap" her here (this makes no sense, as I've told her I can't afford to move her back to S. Fla.)...he believes that there's a dark punitive current, that she wants to harm me. Not just... not cooperate, but actually harm me.
I have come to think so too in my worst moments. So...more boundaries. Lots of agnostic praying. And...still, I remember what CB said, that this may change in time.
Her father wrote me a beautiful letter once years after our divorce, apologizing to both her and me--for quitting our last-ditch marriage counseling--telling me he saw how his absolutism and negativity had doomed our marriage. (I wrote him back total love and forgiveness.) I told her I had a letter from him that I really believed would help us, and she refused to read it.
The thing I originally this morning thought I would write on the board was just this:
I am at times so hurt and sad about this. The other night, I conjured up Nmother...and realized again, in spite of her pervasive (non-abusive, or at least never "overt" abusive) N-ness, there was a little clean piece in my mother that did love me. And that night I just cried over how much I missed having a mother. Because...even NMom, if I wept with her over how hurt I am over my D's hatred of me, she would be sad for me.
That, is true. And perhaps, it means more than I know, in my life story. (A lot of which is about forgiving Ns, finding some compassion for them somewhere deep--and thus healing myself because I too and do and certainly have N traits.)
Sorry. This really DOES sound like self-pity to me. Call me on it.
Uggghh.
love,
Hops
PS--She quit our family counseling. Told me we have to do things "without a professional present". Hence, her idea that we have a set time once a week where she talks and I just listen. This last Friday evening was to be the first, she wanted to skip it. I offered again yesterday, not the right time. I offered today from 5-7 (have a meeting at 7) and she said, I don't want to "schedule it", I just want do do it. I wrote her back that I have a deadline so it really needs to be at 5:00. She's still in bed, sleeps until 4:00. (I know she's depressed, worse than depressed. She is self-destructing and I can't help her.)
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Hops - about the self-pity aspect. I see some self-pity but I don't see that in a pejorative sense. I see a person who deserves to have some solace and noone there to offer it. I find that your turning to the image of your mother makes perfect sense. The profound unkindnesses you are receiving from your daughter, even as you extend a hand of kindness and nurture does deserve solace. So self solace seems to me to be a healthy and healing thing.
This may be an odd response, but do you ever watch Intervention in A&E on Monday evenings? (It might be available on Hulu.) I bring this up because your daughter's behavior and your response reminds me of the loops that families with adult addict children often get into.
There is no easy answer but perhaps you could turn to someone in the 12 step community to help you find your way out of co-dependance. Though I understand how you are loath to give her ultimatums - none-the-less are you sure that you are willing to go down with her self-sabotage?
My heart and concern are with you now. - GS
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Dear Hops,
I am so sorry that this is ongoing in your life. My first reaction of what to say is to put her out to fend for herself, but that sounds so cruel to one’s own flesh and blood. Her attitude reminds me of my daughter when she was an adolescent and teen at home, who would never, never clean her room or make her bed, but she assisted with other chores. I gave up and just closed her door. She married against my wishes and remained on her N-husband’s side when he kicked me out of their lives, and I was always the reason her life was so messed up. We had no contact for over 6 months , and a weight was lifted for me, until this past January when she wrote saying she is gay. I believe the latter was something that might have confused her in her young life, and caused a wall between us, yet she was unable to speak of it. I feel tnderness for her in this, and once again feel that we can exchange emails, but not to the extent of before.
My sister is arriving here next month and being face to face alone for the first time in eons, only God knows what will be talked about, so I have once more asked my daughter, by email now, who I ‘out’ her to, that shows my support and acceptance of her sexual orientation. This sister has a daughter, once married, they had a son, divorced and she has been on her own for some time. Her being alone came up in emails and the answer was she ‘had somebody’ but he was a married man so no one would be meeting him. That raised questions in my mind about my niece, and it also shows that, whatever, my sister and I have no say over what these 2 daughters do, as they are 45 and 46 this year. I just hope my daughter lets me know, so I don’t have to fudge face to face---too difficult for me, and I have already promised that I will abide by her wishes. (Perhaps I could also say she has a married man and no one will be meeting him?)
I sense a trend today for daughters to have had bad mothering., whether in fact or fiction I hear of so many N mothers on this board, your mention of some N-ism in yourself….well we all have that , need that to a healthy degree. (Right now I am all me, me, me still in pain, and one year comes on the 27th. Backaches, kidney aches, spinal pulls and pains, neck pains, tics, tremors and shakes in the head and shoulders, all that come from either a chill, the pain my broken and ‘mangled’ left leg and my spine (to cause a new pain in my right leg.)
I have a wonderful therapist, 40, who has an N-mother she hasn’t seen for 18 years, plus her husband has N-parents with whom they both must deal, so we have become great confidantes. My home care gal is living with an alcoholic. What is happening to everyone? I value my solitude to ‘suffer in silence’ yet my life is overrun with caregivers, appointments and my lawyer. (I’ve been told I have to do my own shopping. My life is ‘run’ by the rep for the driver’s Insurance Co.)
Can you imagine yourself playing the tough love card, and kicking her out? Do you think she is N-istic, thinking only of herself? It puts me in mind of the N I lived with here for 4 years who was always leaving a mess for me to clean, except for the time he trashed the house, and I just left it for anyone to see--he cleaned it! He was always leaving things strewn about to hinder my moving around, so I would move them all to the top of the stairs down to his shop. He just jumped over it all, until the pile became too high and his customers could see it , when coming in the door. This would drive him into rages.
This is rather lengthy with no solution, as you have tenants, except that your life might run more smoothly without her there. What are the ramifications of that?
I do wish you well in dealing with this, because I believe you are hurting now -- and you might have to choose the reason you hurt!
My best
Izzy
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Hi Hops--it's been a long time since I've been on the board, but I just came on and happened on this thread.
I don't see self-pity, I see deep sadness and desperation. I can only add this: your daughter is acting like I once felt like acting. I did SOME of what you mention here, though I would never have spoken to my mother the way your D spoke to you. I certainly ignored my part of chores and was dismissive and hurtful, even when my mother did what you have done: offered me a place to live so I could get myself back on track. I took advantage. I was disrespectful at times. I drank too much and criticized her friends and her choices. Was it depression? Absolutely. Does that forgive it? No. Here's what I wonder: your daughter may be treating you this way because lashing out is kind of the emotional equivalent of taking a painkiller. It helps relieve the rage and frustration for a very short period of time, and when that relief passes the abuser feels even worse, so they lash out even more. It becomes a downward spiral. She MAY be lashing out at you because you have proven to her that you will not leave her. Not many people would take it. You will forgive. And she's addicted to her rage. Here's the thing, though: blaming someone else for her problems cannot do anything BUT make her feel more trapped, more hopeless, because if she isn't causing the problems in her life, she cannot take the steps to change them. She must take responsibility for her life. You cannot do that for her. She's 29 years old, and she is a bully. In the end, bullies act out of fear. If she stops blaming you, there'll be nowhere to look except in the mirror, but once she starts doing that, she'll be able to move forward. I know this because I was there once. And Hops--my mom and I are now best friends.
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Hops,
If it helps any, Ijavascript:void(0); feel sad for you. My eyes filled with tears as you wrote about the "little clean piece" of your Nmom that would have felt sad for the way your daughter is acting.
My sons are acting up too. One is 22 and going through a nasty divorce and custody battle; the other is 19 and has his own woes that he thinks are life-shaking. I have been the burden-bearer in the last few months, and neither one of them seems to care or feel any need to give anything back. My daughter has severe emotional and behavioral problems, and takes out her bile on me too. The only one that I feel like I have a decent relationship with is the youngest son --- and he's only 12, who knows what will happen to screw that up too. OK, that was just a bitter and unnecessary sentiment to express, I admit it.
I hope that this generation coming up develops some sense and empathy --- but the truth is, no matter how much we forgive them, they can't undo the things they've done. The relationship will always carry the memory of past hurts ... regained trust is not quite like trust in the beginning. In a way that's good --- we all mess up, and we all carry on and make lives out of what is left. There is a good lesson that mistakes and screw-ups don't have to ruin our lives. But there also is a sad side to it ... that once a deed is done, or word is said, you can't recall it.
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Dear ((((((((((((Hops)))))))))))))
I have a lump of sadness in my heart for all the hurt you are carrying on account of and for your daughter.
Suffering hurts from someone you love deeply is a double hurt and almost unbearable except you don't dare not bear up if only just for them.
I'm so very sorry, Hops...
tt
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Thanks, GS...I will read more CoDA material and may look for some CoDA folks, too. That's a good idea. Thank you. And for the solace, this recognition. There was a little bit of mother in my mother, more than I credit her for. She would feel such sorrow for what is broken here. Even though so much was passed down through her -- she did not mean it. She didn't know what she was doing.
Izz, so far, I can't imagine putting my D out. She is suffering terribly and I don't think she really can fully fend for herself. I don't look to end our relationship, God no, I just don't know what to do. She did say she'd go to another counselor with me...just not the one we were seeing. So I'll ask my T for a referral and pray that helps. (I am stunned by what you have endured, and awed by the kindness you hold for your own child who abandoned you.)
Gjazz, your perception is acute and your last words I will hang onto. The bully part worries me worse than the crisis now...but I can't cure anything. I can only hold on and try to have faith it will get better.
Pilgrim, I know. The bile. It's stunningly painful. It's as though she is demanding I sit in a chair and allow her to pour a hot kettle of hatred over my head and I must sit, listen, not interrupt, and let it rip. When we first discussed having these 2-hour sessions on our own together, she was being gentler, and I was in a very compassionate mode, and said I would do that, I would just listen. I interrupted only a few times tonight, a few defensive blurts...but she started by having me sit at her computer and read a letter so full of hatred, twisting, indictment, blame and endless...blame...that it sucked all the hope out of me that these "talks" could help.
But she does agree to more counseling. So I will hope that helps. Otherwise, I have to keep my boundaries up.
I just can't believe she turned down the job that was offered her -- she wants me to take the blame, and carry the whole financial weight -- of getting her out of here. It just might sink me if I do, but having her stay, might too.
I do have a very good counselor, and I'll lean on his advice.
And all of yours. Thank you so much for it
With a grateful heart,
Hops
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Thinking of you Hops. Thought about you quite a bit on my long drive home from the beach today.
I love what gjazz wrote. I can remember being much like that - so angry - sabotaging and self-sabotaging without realization out of such deep anger - an odd type of entitlement and anger all bundled up together. No one could have led me out of it - only my need to get help. Will continue to think of you both.
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Hi Hops
I am just back from the wedding and I want to write some at length...
Love you. There is so much going on in both of you...it feels absolutely ugly and, I am sure hopeless at times, but there is a lot incubating below the surface. You are on the verge of this resolving. You just dont see it.
Let me get my ducks in a row and I will be back....No you are not being self pitying. You deserve a good cry before you pull up your big girl panties and roll.... :D
You are good, good, good.
Love
CB
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Thanks, GS and CB...
your thoughts are getting here!
hugs
Hops
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Hops, dear:
something you said:
Otherwise, I have to keep my boundaries up.
AND the illustration you gave - letting her spew all her rage & blame out onto you - sparked an idea that might help you start to figure out what's going on - subtext and context stuff. Granted the idea is colored with where I've been in myself - attachment.
It sounds to me as if she'd like - as if she were an infant - to not have any boundaries between the two of you. Her feelings - yours too.... for mirroring and marking back to her, maybe?? She wants you to be upset that she's upset. Assuming you've told her how this is affecting you - wonder why she isn't hearing??? She wants to projectile vomit it all out onto you - and expects you to clean it up - only because you ARE mom. It's like she's pushing the limits... testing you... wanting you to be angry with her and punish her... instead of trying expand your capacity for taking all her crap. Because deep down, perhaps that's what she believes she deserves. For mom to be so angry, so fed up and out of patience and energy... that you forcefully abandon her to her fate.
I sure hope I'm wrong, Hops - coz truthfully, I wouldn't know how to handle that situation either. We all have our limits - our breaking points - for being in this kind of hostile environment. And sure enough - you need to blow off some steam and anger about this, too. No, I don't think you're self-pitying in acknowledging how painful this is. And frustrating! I'll keep checking in on you about how you're doing. Make sure you get at least 15 mins outdoors in the peace & quiet enjoying the spring change in the weather (even the rain)!! It will help a little.
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Hi Hops,
Today I reread the post I left...doesn't make a bit of sense...too late at night I suppose.
What I was trying to say is that I'm very sorry for the hurt you're experiencing and that when someone you love deeply sets out to hurt you it is a double hurt.
Also trying to say that when you have that deep and abiding love, it's especially hard because it's impossible to depersonalize the hurt. And that even when you think you can't bear anymore, you do, for you want to be strong for them.
You've showered your daughter with love and a soft place to land. You can't go wrong showing that kind of love.
Hope this makes a little more sense.
tt
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PR, thanks hon...that bleak view may just be true. And if it is, I need more starch in my spine.
My poor kid.
TT, thank you. I so hope you're right!
I am wiped out but DO have one piece of great news...she didn't tell me, but the friend of mine did...at the last minute, she accepted the job she had told the interviewers she didn't think she wanted (they held it for her for a week, just because of the boss' kindness to me). She won't earn much but she'll be out of the house every day, no longer able to sleep in the basement all day long, at least in contact with other people...it's GOT to help her! And she'll be walking, which ought to help in springtime!
Love and thank you all so much again, I owe more answers...will write again asap.
xoxo
Hops
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So glad to hear there's good news, Hops.
Just jumping in late, but.....
you have a chance to model for your daughter how to state, and defend, healthy boundaries (when she's spewing.)
This can be an opportunity for growth and teaching, not just an excercise in pain and remaining stuck.
I especially like these rules:
#1. If you want to talk to me, you may not yell, curse, name call, change subjects before one is handled or leave without setting a time to return and finish the discussion.
If someone can't follow those rules, they don't get an audience. They get to see me walking out of the room or getting in the car and motoring away, (in a very calm manner, hopefully: )
Mo2
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I think you're right on all counts, dear CB.
The little power struggles are pointless and it's much better to just not have a need expressed and muddle on. Mostly, I don't ask much...but any small request does get magnified into The Battle. You're right, I vacuumed before (now and then when the dust bunnies grew 2' high) and will do it again. As to the lessons about whether I can/want to manage a house this size, that's all moot until my brother responds to the last settlement offer. One way or another, the estate has to be settled, either by me buying him out so I can sell it or keep it (the only choice for me, as I can't sell it WITH him, that would be BULLY II)...or if he never will, then eventually back to court for a forced sale (and at that point no judge would force me to work with him). So I'm safe here for now and have adapted to the limbo. For my D, it all adds to her feels of instability. She says, I'm sleeping on the couch of a person who's sleeping on the couch. (In the longer term, I have come many miles in letting go. If it's clear at the time that I can't keep it, I'm ready to let it go and make a cozy nest somewhere else.) Just not clear yet.
I do have to (and have grown eager to) let D go. When she was in Miami, down to $150 and sounding irrational ("All I need is a bicycle")...I didn't have the heart to say, Gosh, let me know what happens. I did intervene to "rescue" her and she resents it bitterly that instead of paying for a truck, gas, fuel to get her home, I didn't just send her the money to do whatever she wanted with. I just couldn't. She'd just stiffed me for thousands, I am hurting financially, and I knew that whatever I sent she'd blow through and it wouldn't be enough to keep her safe. Now, she's safe, but furious. One sticking point I will talk through with my T today is she wanted to keep her things in a storage unit down there, and I pushed her to bring it ALL here. So now, she has the monthly expense of that (would have down there as well) and also felt that it was the last thread that kept her linked to her dream there. She really resented that I pushed her to get it all in one place, especially this town, which she hates. She said for her emotionally that was the last straw, and I believe her. She also has a complex argument that because I said I'll get you a UHaul but not a rental car, and I'm not paying for a storage unit, I didn't give her the help SHE wanted but only the help that I wanted...that I really owe her that money so she can start again.
I know what she'd prefer: I give her about $10K I don't have, so she can get a car and move back there. On the one hand, it's tempting. On the other it would be disastrous for me financially. And it's really not enough to get her into a safe situation. $20K would be, but I don't have it. So, one step at a time.
Thank god for a good T, friends, and this board.
You are right on the pulse of it when you talk about me REALLY letting go and releasing the outcome, in faith that I can have a good life whether my daughter rejects me forever or not. I think...I have no choice.
And the medium chill courtesy without engagement about our relationship is critical and I have to stop agreeing to the marathon sessions with her when I feel absolutely verbally beaten up. I think the more I consent to it, the more it escalates. Hopefully, we'll find a new family counselor who can help us with hearing each other, soon.
Must go write. Thank you CB, and TT, and everyone, for all the kindness and wisdom and caring.
Beyond thanks.
Hops
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Thanks, M02--
It's not yelling and cursing...it's a cold tempered knife work. She talks, nonstop. What she does is to describe me to myself, taking every failing, every weakness, every imperfection, and narrating it to me in a detailed pretty vicious portrait of blame and failure. Why every piece of her desperation is my fault. At great length. With many intimate details.
All designed to blame, and hurt.
The bottom line of all of it: YOU are responsible for my life. So you OWE me the money I need to leave.
(CB, I really do not have the money to "let her go". The emotional part, I am working on as hard as I can. But I do not have the money that would help her get out of here. That's the bind I'm in.)
The look on her face is....bully. She's verbal. Smart.
Hops
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This might not be of any use but if I were in your shoes I would be snarling at the girl. She is really acting intolerable. She is hurt (also by you) but still that does not give her the right to treat you like you and your feelings don't count at all. She is no longer a child so there is no need for her to behave like a toddler or a teenager. You don't deserve such harsh punishment.
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When I said that you are on the verge of a breakthrough, this is what I meant: I think you are going to have to be willing to give your daughter the freedom to walk away from the relationship so you can come back to gether when you are both on firmer emotional ground.
What CB said. Repeat as needed. :)
Seriously, CB's post is full of wise, useful, practical info. And mine was a bit muddled, as usual. This bit above stood out to me as the fulcrum for change.
The yin to the yang; the flip side of "attachment" - is separation. How we separate ourselves from our moms and become that independent, self-sufficient person is a process that has far & deep reaching bits that hook into our identities - and yes, in the life-history of "this happened; he said - she said" narrative in one's brain. (all that vituperative blame)
Sometimes, we do have an opportunity for a do-over in the separation process. Maybe some of the bleakness in my first post can be offset by the opportunity you have now to see that you can walk alongside your D on her journey through hell. I still believe that she'll work it out and later on, your relationship will be stronger for your willingness to put up with the HOW of her processing. I have to reread CB's post again - there's a wealth of goodness in it - so for now, I'll just give you the one thing I've learned about this process which I know is working for me - and my D.
Less is more. The less I do for my D the better. Some things are unavoidable - like the financial support in a crisis. I couldn't live with myself, otherwise. But, I always clearly point out what I think she needs to do and how I will/can help (and let her know that's still her choice to accept that or not) and never, ever forget to also tell her that I have full faith in her ability to choose wisely for herself and to accomplish what it is she needs & wants to do or attain. Then I get out of her way and except for progress reports or contact & interaction of a general nature... I stand aside and just observe, so that when she asks for reassurance or advice (and she does) I can answer with my perspective. When I don't know what to say - I just repeat my reassurance that she'll figure it all out or succeed, as much to remind me - as it is boost her confidence.
Fact is: our D's journey and the paths they take or find themselves on belong to them. We can't choose or protect them from them. It consoles me - and I hope it will console you - when I am asked to walk alongside for a bit or provide perspective from where I sit, without resuming my "mom" role. My goal has been to find a way to move from re-assuming my role as "mom" to my D to becoming her friend. My D is 32 and such a strong personality we call her "a force of nature" and we are still working on and refining this. The boundaries aren't set in concrete - they shift continuously back & forth. It's always a juggling act and we don't always get things "right". We do step on each others toes in the process. It helps when there is the ability to cut each other some slack for those less than "perfect" moments and confidence in each other - that we're doing the best we can, right now.
And yeah - she and I have been through some ugly painful times together too - to even get to the point where we can both see this now. Times when everything I said was "wrong". Your D is earning her life-wisdom merit badges - the process, the method, the fall-out is all hers. But the safe place, the workshop, to work through all that is YOURS to give and she needs this. Yep - she's making a huge mess and blaming you and being a brat while she's in the process of reinventing herself. But you know about "creative messes"... beautiful things can come from them. Patience with her procrastination & stumbles and take care of you instead - let her take care of herself. You don't have to participate in those berating sessions - just "don't do it now". Things will look SOOOO much different with the distance CB pointed out and a few months from now. Much better to de-brief after a new foundation is laid, than during the process itself.
((((((((((Hops))))))))))) Even if I'm totally off-base with this, it's coz I've walked in your shoes and I care 'bout you, sweetie. You aren't who she's angry with, at the bottom of all this. She won't know that for awhile yet.
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Dear Hops,
All this is about releasing your daughter to take responsibility for her life. Can you have that (her taking responsibility for her own life) as your focus as you practice tough love?
Love,
tt
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You cant help her by giving her $10000 or $20000 or even the cost of moving out of the house. She is stuck in her own head--just as all of us here have been--and she is on a journey to get out. Look at Gaining Strength! At Axa...at Izzy. I remember where they were a few years back when I was beginning my own journey out. We all muddled around and ranted about the people who had done us wrong and when we were through, and sitting on the ground panting with the exhaustion of ranting, we looked around and said "now what?" All of a sudden, we wanted to be somewhere else: in a broad sunlit place with all the possibilities that we had been without for so long, stretching before us. Your D will get to that place too, but she is not through with the first step.
This is so absolutely on the money that I have nothing to say or add to it - at least until I pick my awed jaw up from the floor.
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Lucky, PR, CB, TT...
I am so sorry I've let this lapse.
Absolutely HAMMERED with deadlines right now and I have to really gather myself emotionally to do your kindnesses justice. But there is SO much help and wisdom and comfort in your responses.
I'm just letting them roll around inside until I can gather the words again.
For no good reason it's easier for me to post on others' threads when I'm still processing something very big, so I may take quick breaks to post still, before I update here.
But please know how profoundly I appreciate what you've written here, and how deeply helpful it's been. You give me comfort and hope and new ways to see my situation and that helps me be more compassionate to my D and myself.
(My jaw dropped in awe too. And for all of you.) I'm moved and grateful and HELPED.
D has gone off to her job 3 days in a row now, such a huge help that will be. Even more than earning a bit, it's OFF the couch, OUT of the basement, and OUT into the world and interacting with other people. Thank God. Six months of her self-imposed jail time was more than enough and I was afraid she would literally go around the bend. It had begun.
One other hopeful note is that we have an appt. with a new family T whom my own T recommended highly. That's on the 7th. So perhaps we will make some progress again.
Such amazing insights about the ghost of my mother's modeling, CB, and the proper perspective on petty power struggles (I've stepped out of those as much as possible). And things ARE feeling better.
Tonight's our next "talk time" so we'll see. I plan to be calm and strong.
Lucky, thanks for having my back. Sometimes just a little spurt of indignation is heartening too.
PR, you're so right, it's all about separation. And I am newly dedicated to enabling THAT, not daily dependency. I am just as eager to help her move on as she is to go, the only issues to sort out are how I can do that without breaking my own financial back. So it will definitely be a while, and meanwhile, I will practice that patience you talk about as profoundly as I can.
TT, yes. I'm ready to let her accept responsibility for her life. SHE's not, but I can step back and stop being "hooked" by her insistence that I do it for her, whatever her justification.
And tonight, I will continue to take care of myself and leave the talk if it turns bullying again. That is a regular message I can send, in calm, that is tough love. Serving as her whipping post has undermined us both and my guilt is all expiated now. It won't motivate me to help her and it's toxic to us both.
I noticed her making food and offering to share it, often, since she started her job. This morning I got up and made lunches for us both.
Small things. But they're what it all adds up to, in time.
Releasing and RE-releasing, and thanks again, must dash to work.
love and thanks,
Hops
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Our second "sit down" session, last night, went better. At the beginning I told her my commitment was to listen to her compassionately and without interrupting, but that if I came to feel overloaded with blame and criticism, I reserved my choice to leave the conversation. I meditated on compassion and "white light" as I listened to her.
Some blaming (well, a lot) went on but without hostility...and other things came out too. She talked more and more about how utterly miserable she is and how she can't take it much longer, living here. She said a lot of things that I could understand--she hates being in the basement, if she were in the master BR she'd feel dominated by me and the tenants' presence means she doesn't feel at ease on the first floor either. She talked over and over and over about my forcing her to bring all her belongings here with her, and how that was the last straw as she now feels every thread has been severed. Her friends aren't talking to her and she feels they assume that because she's "home with Mom" she's safe and well if inconvenienced, where the truth for her is that it's completely toxic, she feels absolutely no hope, and she can't make progress in this house. The longer it goes on the more she feels she's losing her connections and community in Miami, school, her tutoring job, the friends she had made. She was only there 2 years and if she stays away much longer she'll not be able to rebuild.
What I'm worried about, desperately, is that I think she's spiraling downward, mental health wise. I have offered her every possible resource and she turns them down or places obstacles. I am truly afraid, because of a few of her remarks, that she is contemplating suicide.
And I will tell my counselor and she and I do have a family counseling appt. on the 7th. But for me the real issue is, she needs individual therapy and support, desperately, and she's not getting it.
I will keep trying and I will share, in counseling, what my concern is. I think it's getting way past the point when worrying about whether she loves me matters. I am so worried about her.
I wrote her a letter, up until 4 a.m., and haven't sent it. It was all about spiritual strength and ways of finding it, and more suggestions, and wishes, and things that have helped me survive the darkest times. But I don't know that she can accept any help from me and I don't want to make things worse.
Thanks for listening,
Hops
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(((((((((((((((((Hops)))))))))))))))))
I don't have any insights. I just wanted you to know I feel your pain. Take care of yourself. You are a wonderful person!
Much love, Worn
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Hops,
I am so sorry for this pain and anxiety. I know the sleepless nights with your thoughts whirling and whirling.
Please keep coming back here so we can hold your hand and be support for you. You will need support, too, lots in 3D as well. I hope she will agree to some therapy and support...she has kinda got herself boxed into a corner with all her requirements. When my kids have done that, they have later told me that they just felt desperate and cast around in all directions trying to figure out how to get relief. Her feeling of being trapped in any room of the house makes me think of that...
I know you are worried sick...and I agree that you two need some outside help...but I do think this can have a positive ending, and that she could possibly be going through this same thing if she were in Miami. I am glad she is here with you, even if she does think that that's what triggered her crisis. She may very well see that differently when she is on the other side of this.
Love you
CB
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thank you Worn, for your kindness...
and thank you, CB. You have my profound gratitude.
I did tell her in my long letter than she could be feeling it in Miami too. I emptied myself of every possible thing I could suggest.
She had mentioned just in one brief moment last night, with a hopeless look, that she wished she could belong to the nearby gym. I asked about walking, using my exercise bike. She just shook her head. She wasn't asking me for anything. I recognized that this was one small thing that would help her help herself, and it would also get her among people. The isolation she's in is profound. She walks to and from work alone, she works in a cubicle among strangers.
So I went today and bought her a 3-month membership and gave her the card. I think it was just like buying her medicine. She needs to get stronger and if this is a tool that works for her, I could give it. She said thanks and looked glad.
When she responded to my letter-email, her answer was two lines: I do not need any advice from you. Stop sending it.
So...I won't try any more pouring-out letters again. I hope some of it sank in anyway. I asked her a lot of questions about her thought patterns and depression and begged her to fight.
I think there's not a lot more I can do.
Thank you for being here. I'll surely be leaning on you.
love,
Hops
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Hopsy,
just another stray thought that might or might not help... but offering anyway.
About losing all her friends and having to "start over from scratch" again:
I'd question that assumption. If they are truly her friends - they'll still be there if she is able to go back. And from personal experience (and my own D's) there are many worse things than starting over, somewhere new. She's spending too much time thinking about what's gone, what she doesn't/didn't have and bemoaning that loss - without hanging anything on the positive side of the scale: she's still got all the skills she used to have, still the same dreams and goals... and her current situation is, admittedly a detour - but she doesn't have to flat-out give up! Just catch her breath, regroup, and try again. She hasn't lost her own resources... but she may have lost or is questioning her own confidence in herself, and is swimming in bleakness instead hoping someone comes to rescue her. But the water's not deep: all she has to do is stand up...
and she may need lots of reassurance; lots of encouragement. Your gym card was exactly on target, too. Inspired! Physical energy might help blow those dark cobwebs away... and she can't help but meet new people.
The other thing I heard, which I've only learned I did all time in the past year or so, is that she's making conditions for being happy and satisfied, and getting on with her life. You're not in her way... not really. You are trying to help the best way you know how, within your understanding of boundaries. If the conditions she sets herself are too high, too optimistic, it only fuels the "all or nothing" desperation and despair. When I could see myself or my D doing this, we'd remind each other:
"you can't always get what you want - but sometimes, you get what you need".
(((hops))) Hang in there, girlfriend! Hope you meet your deadlines and get some needed R&R for Hops, too.
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I'm going to go out on a limb & be simplistic: There are periods in our lives when we go thru hard times. An astrologer would say "this will be a difficult year/cycle (or number of years) for you, but, you will come out of it." Perhaps it's our fate, written in our charts & there's nothing we can do to avoid it: we must make the painful journey thru the desert & in doing so, we learn what kind of stuff we are made of; it's the challenges of life. We just always need to believe that we WILL get thru it & we will emerge stronger, better & wiser. The next time a painful life challenge arises, we can look back at our prior challenge & tell ourselves "I made it thru that, I'll make it thru this."
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PR, you understand exactly where she is.
And you're right, love and encouragement is my job #1 now.
That's all. Boundaries sure, but I will still keep my focus on love.
I love her with all my heart. She knows. And at some point she'll
know about being only a human being, too. I really do believe at
some point she'll be able to forgive me if she has forgiven herself.
Either way my job is: take care of myself responsibly, do everything
I can to support and encourage her without risking my life or security,
and release the outcome. (Over and over). Find the balance and
preserve my own health in the process. That's proving difficult because
when she shares how she's feeling, I become frightened, can't sleep
or focus to do my work, begin to feel I'm losing my own balance.
But tough. I have to stand in the wind of reality too.
Ann, hi, you're right...that's the gift w/in the problem, the only
redemption of suffering. The strength that comes from surviving it.
My focus really is on her survival. It may take more financial sacrifice
than I wanted to make but I am going to work through those choices
privately with my counselor. So when I do give something, it is in
balance with my progress toward my own right life. It may be small
or it may be larger, but there are ways to get it into a constructive
balance. Like, help her with this, but not that. Or maybe not. Maybe it
will be to help her with a lump sum. That one feels wrong to me right
now, as I don't think she's well enough to do more than blow it all
to get to Miami without any resources she needs to be safe there.
That's a big cycle in my head, and I should step back. Trust my T.
He's very pragmatic and supportive of making plans, choices. And
at some point, as CB said, I may have to also let go of controlling
her safety. Face the risk of losing her in order to let her separate.
I know she needs to believe she'll get through it. That's what I'm
trying to encourage. Severe depression eats that belief. I hope
she'll reconsider Rx because right now I believe she needs them.
Thanks for listening,
Hops
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Wanted to pop in and say Hello...I'll be traveling on business for a week and may get online only now and then or not at all. Oy, I feel anticipatory Board withdrawal!
Things are cool, distant, and calm with my D. Not fun.
When I took our dog, alone...that was a moment when I felt it most. I didn't guilt-trip her one bit. Later, a close workmate listened to my story of the morning, in which I said only how glad I was that D. had come to the car to say goodbye to the dog...and he had tears, and said, I am so sorry you had to go through that alone.
I asked her yesterday after I fetched the ashes if she'd like to scatter Pooch's ashes with me and she suggested they instead should be returned to park in another city we lived in, when we first got her. But I am not going to do that. I feel strongly, personally, about not letting remains sit around in a can, and I'd like to return B. to nature at the nearby park she so loved, and where I spend so many happy hours with her. (I can also commune with her there no matter what house I wind up in, so don't feel attached to sprinkling her in the yard here.) I took care of B. most all her life, so I guess in this instance I don't feel like letting my D dictate what I do with her remains. Especially since my D redefined her as "your dog."
I dislike this relationship now, honestly. I feel D. circles me looking for money, is interested in me only for that, and is utterly indifferent to me in any other way. It's a really sad feeling but I am maintaining a new detachment. She never did follow through with our new family counselor appointment, and I guess that's that. She will have things her way and have the last word. Her father did the same thing...quit counseling when he was challenged. He wrote me years later to say he was sorry, and saw that as the moment that really ended our marriage.
I am trying not to make the comparison but I do see it as so familiar. Of course, I'm her mother for life, but she did tell the first counselor that she wanted to "divorce me." Perhaps she's succeeding.
It's horrible. Sorry to keep moaning about it, but now and then I just need to say it again. It's horrible.
But on the surface I'm calm and adult around her, and mostly pretty well defended. I don't know what else to do, so we just go our separate ways and barely intereact. She was nice to me on my birthday and immediately afterward reverted to her cold, distant thing. If I need to speak to her the response is always, "What do you want?" So I speak to her as little as I can.
Yuck. Dunno why I go off on all this again just now, but it's partly because I just signed a new will that will protect her in case anything should happen to me before Nmom's estate is settled--and shields her completely from any interaction with my brother.
I do know what it is. It's me feeling her profound ingratitude and entitlement, and having inner angry thoughts that I don't like having.
Confessing them here.
Hops
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I am the logical type and she is the emotional type. She cried when she left, but I smiled and waved, thinking she was going back to her own life, but not 'leaving me'. It could be she was feeling sorry to see me sitting inside the lobby in a wheelchair in pain, or that she might never see me again, or that '_____________________? Who knows with the emotional thinkers?
I must have decided a long time ago, that emotions get in the way of thinking, because I deal better with the facts and putting things into action, or not! Sounds cold? I don't think so....just sensible/productive? Dunno the word!
I feel betrayal, it goes to its compartment, then I only think betrayal, and I no longer hurt!
love Izzy
From my EFT post
Thoughts re your Daughter?
Mine sent a birthday card, then a chatty letter asking what I wanted, as 'the woman who has all she needs'. She sounds happy and fulfilled and is renovating her partner's house, while she rents out hers, as well as delivering babies on the side....or maybe that is vice versa, and considering going for her MFA as a career change option. She's helping straighten out her partner's 3 young children who began to rule the household.
I replied with common sense and no betrayal 'feelings' while writing. As long as there are no more 'digs', all will be copasetic between us, and we will have Contact. Otherwise, back to No Contact! That's my logical thinking!
That has been my survival mode, and all toxicity is out of my life!
Love
Izzy
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You ARE logical, Izzy...and I envy that sometimes!
Thanks for the reminder that one can have matter-of-fact contact and bugger the dreams.
Really.
I need to blow off the fantasies of "how it should be."
It just is what it is and my goal (more days than not, I'm doing better with this) -- is to accept what it is.
Thanks, Izz.
love,
Hops
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Izz, you are very logical.
Hops: Your daughter will come out of this, stronger for having survived it, as you and Ann said.
That's the nature of entering the abyss.
We learn the biggest lessons by dragging ourselves out.
If someone else drags us, we learn nothing.
Well, nothing useful.
Mo2
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I hope that very soon you will be allowed to turn in your chief-fixer hat and just enjoy the simplicity of your own life and no one else's for awhile.
Yes! I hope this for you too, Hopsy...
The day will come soon, Hops, when your daughter will wake up, look around her, and decide she needs to get moving. Her independence and resolve will make her feel better about herself, and when that happens, your relationship with her will be much better.
It does happen, Hops; it does. Each kid has their own inner timetable, though. It's not to fair to ourselves, to hover around them, trying to help, encourage or enlighten... until they're truly ready to accept the help. That's the one thing that just stands out to me, in all this - she hasn't accepted the idea that she really NEEDED help and you GAVE it. But one day, it will.
Hugs....
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My heart is with you Hops.
I ache just reading about the pain in that relationship with your daughter.
I believe that her vulture like behavior, circling waiting for money to scavenge has more to do with her utter sense of helplessness. I suspect she feels utterly incompetentt to provide for herself and in her inability to deal with this iincompetense and her fear about this, she, rather than deal with it, had elected to bundle it up and project it all onto you. this saves her from being responsible for herself - you are the target and perhaps willl be until she finds the will and the strength and the courage to become responsible for herself. I suspect she is living in horrific fear.
thinking of you and sending you muuch love - GS