Voicelessness and Emotional Survival Message Board
Voicelessness and Emotional Survival => Voicelessness and Emotional Survival Message Board => Topic started by: JustKathy on December 27, 2009, 06:54:38 PM
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Sealynx recently made a good observation in another thread, saying that other family members may realize that something is "off" with the N in the family, but will opt to take the easy way out (side with the N) rather than have the N turn on them.
This was interesting to me because I have an Aunt, my NM's sister, who has always known that something was very wrong, but basically decided to remain completely neutral. She would occasionally make generic statements about M "having her moments," but it never went beyond that. I always wondered how much she really knew, and how she really felt about M's mistreatment of me.
Well, something interesting just happened. Some of you know that my NM has terminal cancer. She was diagnosed back in June, and given a month to live, 6 months maximum. Technically she should be dead, yet she's apparently doing quite well, and is sitting around spending her time trying to guilt everyone into giving her non-stop attention.
Anyway, M's sister, the Aunt I referred to above, has a 49-year-old son who went missing about five years ago (he apparently got fed up with the all the family drama and took off). A few weeks ago, that son (my cousin) not only resurfaced, but announced that he's getting married. I emailed him, filled him in on some things, and told him that I'm NC with my mother. Also that I've been kept pretty much in the dark when it comes to both my sister's battle with breast cancer and M's cancer. This was his reply:
"As I understand it, your sister lost both her breasts due to cancer, then had surgery to have 'replacements' implanted, but that an infection occurred and she had to go back to for additional surgeries. She's not doing very well. As for your Mom, I don't know as much, but it seems like she has been a bit of a 'drama queen' (surprise!) based on what my Mom has said...."
WHOA! Snap! I just about fell off my chair. Nothing said about M's cancer, only that she's behaving like a "drama queen?" Wow. My Aunt has always been very diplomatic, and very careful with her choice of words. For the first time in my life I feel that I'm not the only one - that my Aunt DOES know, and DOES see it, and in fact, seems pretty annoyed with it.
This is what I suspect may be going on. I think my cousin's sudden appearance, doubled with the news of his wedding, has taken the attention away from my mother, the dying queen. M has always hated my cousin, so I can visualize her stamping her feet and steaming "how DARE he steal my spotlight." Obviously her behavior must be pretty bad for my Aunt to comment that her terminally ill sister is a drama queen.
Which also makes me wonder about this terminal illness my NM has. She seems to be doing awfully well for someone who should have died months ago. I'm beginning to wonder if things haven't been exaggerated for the sake of gaining attention.
Sorry this is so long. I just thought I'd pass that along, as it was a huge light bulb moment. I now realize that yes, my Aunt DID know, and yes, was taking the safe road. All this time I thought that my Aunt was siding with M. Based on some other things that my cousin said to me, it now appears NOT to be the case. She was just playing along, so as not to incur the wrath of M.
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I sympathize with your aunt because maybe she didn't know what the heck to do. If she knew that your mother was not right, she might not have known what was wrong, and she might have thought she was making it easier on you to "not rock the boat." If she didn't think there was anything she could do to get you out of the situation, maybe she thought it best not to rile your mom up.
Of course, I don't know what specific things you are thinking of ... it's just when someone is irrational like an N, it can be confusing to know what to do.
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I don't think my aunt had any idea what was wrong with my mother, clinically speaking. She had told me that M had been a problem child growing up, had "moments," and general things like that, but few people know what NPD is unless they've sought the help of a professional.
My aunt definitely knew that M was mistreating me, especially when I was a teen. She did what she could to help me, but definitely didn't want to rock the boat. For example, my mother held a family boycott of my high school graduation because she was mad at me for some petty thing. My aunt made the drive from San Diego to L.A., met me at work, and brought me a graduation gift. I think you're absolutely right that she didn't know what to do, so she looked out for me in her own way, without making waves.
I never knew what she really thought of M - if she were just a little "off," or had a genuine mental illness. It now looks like she may have suspected something more serious, but kept it inside. I can't say that I blame her. She only saw bits and pieces of what my mother did to me. Without the full story, there's no way to know, or to even guess at a diagnosis.
Kathy
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Hi Kathy,
My whole family adopt a very head in the sand, don't rock the boat, don't cause any trouble kind of approach to every situation, not just to my mum. I sometimes wonder how many generations ignored abuse and what sort of effect that has had on family members, in different ways?
Even my mum, who I consider to have NPD (she's never sought help so have no idea if a doctor would diagnose her with it or not) completely blanked out any kind of problem for as long as I can remember. Throughout my life I've had to deal with my problems on my own because she just couldn't cope with reality. Her fantasy world got bigger and stronger over the years and I think it competely pushed any kind of reality out altogether.
I think it can be very validating when someone else mentions something that makes you realise they see it to. It shows you that you're not imagining it, or being oversensitive or that you think everything revolves around you. I also think it's very scary that your mum may have embelished on her illness to get more attention - my mum has done this as well and I think it's a pretty low trick. Your cousin sounds like a very straight talking kind of a bloke - it's a shame more people aren't like him!
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I have this sinking feeling in my stomach that the NWomb-Donor just MIGHT be FAKING her "terminal" illness as a way to GRAB THE SPOTLIGHT AWAY from your sister while your sister is battling her breast cancer. I have a feeling that the N-Snake would not hesitate to stoop that LOW! :P
Now that your cousin is getting married, who knows what other histrionics she is going to pull as the wedding day gets closer.
Bones
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Hi Kathy - how've you been?
I woke up this morning with reminders of how I felt I was going insane, back when my mom was insisting that her fantasy was reality and forcing me to accept it. It truly would've helped if there had been people around me to say conclusively that she was unfit to mother because of her illness. But instead, I sought out what help I could... a neighbor who advocated for me; a friend that I could call early in the morning ('coz mom wasn't up) to just talk current events with and have my feelings, ideas, and thoughts validated; an aunt who told me (though I'd forgotten) that everyone knew my mom "wasn't right" - but no one knew how, why or what could be done about it.
The neighbor tried hardest to "re-educate" my mom... but of course that backfired, as my mom would twist things to her own motivation and purpose, distorting the good things and making even the most basic human caring instincts seem to be irrational, manipulative for some "ulterior motive", or promoting what she called "spineless weakness". It was part of her paranoid world-view that you should never accept compliments or gifts from others because then they'd "have something over you"...
... pot calling kettle black, really - more of her projections...
... and eventually, she even turned me against this neighbor in her attempts to make me "just like her", even as she continued and deepened her relationship with the neighbor - jealous, maybe?
I really think that - in general - we have a NEED to have someone confirm or validate that our Ns are "wrong" or "off" or "ill"... it's a need that doesn't really go away, when the N is a parent. It lessens as we heal, but remains a sensitive area. And this is at a much deeper level than likes/dislikes, cultural fashion or tradition, or the child's tendency to expect parents to be "perfect". The communication of an awareness on the part of other people that the N is an N... or mentally ill... helps us really empathize with ourselves about ourselves and opens the door to being able to a new experience of ourselves - sans the impact of N - when we stop questioning ourselves and begin to accept that there are simple "good things" we can accept from others and give to others - without that fear of repercussions.
Ns just pretend to be humans - and they are very good actors, deceivers. People outside of the FOO don't have enough information or data - the whole story - and are more easily persuaded by the extreme rationalizations and fantasy-constructs of the N's litany of injustices and paranoia. The gaslighting effect, you know? Projecting their own emotions/actions onto others, too. So that they themselves aren't responsible for the mess they've created.
Sorry for rambling; but this touched a current thought-process for me...
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Well said, Amber. Ami
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I have this sinking feeling in my stomach that the NWomb-Donor just MIGHT be FAKING her "terminal" illness as a way to GRAB THE SPOTLIGHT AWAY from your sister while your sister is battling her breast cancer.
You know Bones, I hate to say it, but the thought has sure crossed my mind. I know that she DOES have cancer, but am beginning to doubt the prognosis. The only reason that I feel certain the cancer is real, is that my father went to the doctor with her, and called to tell me that she was terminal. However, the information that he has given me has changed with every phone call - she has a month to live, she has 6 months, and sometimes, he calls without mentioning it at all. He also downplays my sister's cancer, acting as if it's nothing worse than a common cold.
I do believe that my NM's cancer is inoperable/incurable, but I'm starting to think that she may have years, not months. She acts less like someone who is dying and more like someone who has been given a gift - the ultimate attention grabber. The drama has been unbelievable. And yes, she's probably quite jealous of the attention being paid to my sister, who has had a very difficult battle with breast cancer. My S works for my Aunt, and they are very close, so it stands to reason that my Aunt has great empathy for my sister, and is possibly fed up with M's insistence that it be all about HER.
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People outside of the FOO don't have enough information or data - the whole story - and are more easily persuaded by the extreme rationalizations and fantasy-constructs of the N's litany of injustices and paranoia
Yes, and that will always be a problem for those of us who are victims. We DO want and need someone to believe us, and validate what has happened to us, but no family member could ever possibly know or understand the complete truth.
My cousin sent me my Aunt's phone number, and said that she would like to talk to me because she "understands." She does understand, but she only understands that I have had some "issues" with my mother. She has no way of knowing about the horrible, vile things that M did to me. Let's face it, some of the things that N parents do are so out there, that therapists often don't believe us. I'll call my Aunt when the holiday dust settles, and I may tell her that M has something called NPD, but I can't even begin to go into 40 years of both emotional and physical abuse. Even if she felt like spending all day listening, I wouldn't feel right doing it. It would only serve to make ME look like a drama queen, and that's the last thing I want - to be just like M.
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Hi Kathy,
I think we always want to seek that validation, but perhaps the best we can do is to seek out what someone wants to give us and not burdening them with the whole story. Could your aunt become the confidant and mother you never had without having to agree with or even listen to that story?? We here understand and so does your therapist. The rightness or wrongness of a fact is unrelated to how many people believe it.
That graduation situation was enough to let your aunt know that you do not have a loving parent and allow her to show that she doesn't need a record of horrible abuse to show love for you. When your mother does pass over, aunts house might be a great place for you, your cousin, father and sister to spend holidays with a real family. I have a feeling she may invite you.
As for your mother exceeding her expiration date and being upset about your sister getting attention.... When my dad was in the hospital ,critically ill, my mother got tired of him getting all the attention, faked chest pains and got herself checked into a hospital...across town. She then called me constantly to bring her make-up and other items, knowing full well that I was his sole caretaker. I wouldn't put anything past them.
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Could your aunt become the confidant and mother you never had without having to agree with or even listen to that story??
Yes, definitely. I don't want to burden anyone with the details, though in this case, I don't think I need to. There have been several times in my life when she DID assume the role of mother.
The biggest moment for me (and my entire family), was when I was 21, and my Grandmother held a family reunion back home in Canada. At the time, I was under "the silent treatment," with M refusing to speak to me. She would not allow me to travel to the reunion with my own family, so my aunt paid for my airfare, and I went with her and my cousin. Suffice to say, many distant relatives who came from other states were horribly confused, not knowing who my mother was. Closer relatives, my Grandmother and M's sisters, were outraged. That was the first time that I was told by other relatives that M "wasn't right."
I also spent two summers with my aunt when I was a teen. One summer at her vacation home in Hawaii, and the other at her home in San Diego. I don't know how that came about, or whose idea it was. M just told me, "You're going to your Aunt's house for the summer," and that was that. That *might* have been M's idea, as my aunt is a doctor, and M decided the day I was born that I was going to be a doctor, or was going to marry one. She always sucked up to my aunt, and ordered me to do the same. She carried around this stupid fantasy that my aunt was my ticket into medical school, would give me a job, yada yada. Regardless of the reason, it was sure nice to be away from the abuse for a few months, and live in a normal home.
So anyway, my aunt definitely knows that I wasn't a bad kid, actually quite the opposite. She's also seen some pretty heinous stuff coming from my mother. I mean really, who goes to a family reunion and pretends that her daughter belongs to someone else?
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When my dad was in the hospital ,critically ill, my mother got tired of him getting all the attention, faked chest pains and got herself checked into a hospital...across town.
You know what's so sad about this? I read it without being the slightest bit shocked, just shaking my head up and down saying, "uh huh, yep." Anyone else would be horrified, but to someone who knows Ns, this is textbook behavior. Such a horrible thing to do to you and your father, yet she probably thought nothing of it.
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Kathy,
I think that is why it is so hard to talk to anyone who hasn't experienced it. Trying to explain just one thing they do to someone who doesn't "get it" takes more time and energy than its worth.
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I wish there was a wonderful essay/summary of NPD that goes beyond the DSM-IV criteria but not as far as v achin the usual author, (intentionally misspelled), with anecdotes + half a dozen examples of each criterion, enough different ones (short ones) that a general reader might see a pattern in severe Ns...
Would be so nice to have a "handout" to give other people that explains this personality disorder, as people who have various physical illnesses have access to.
I bet we'd each make 100 copies and always carry one!
Hops
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Tell them to read Merrel Markoe's book "It's My %##ing Birthday. That book has plenty of examples!
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Kathy,
I think that is why it is so hard to talk to anyone who hasn't experienced it. Trying to explain just one thing they do to someone who doesn't "get it" takes more time and energy than its worth.
This is so true. People on the outside looking in just cannot grasp it. It take the H screwing THEM before they see it :shock: :shock:
Ami
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JustKathy, Have you ever been in a place where you HAVE to talk about something, over and over, until finally one day the emotional wind is gone from the subject and you know that you're over it? Do you think you're at that point with the subject of your mother --- that you no longer have the need to talk about all the excruciating details and you can just accept that your aunt knows enough ... enough to not blame you for whatever went wrong, enough to not defend your mother, enough to empathize with you? If so, I think that's a wonderful thing. If you're not quite there yet, I will bet that as you have more and more contact with your aunt, details of what you went through will come out bit by bit, and that will be OK with both of you. She won't see you as the drama queen.
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I'm definitely at a place where I don't want to (or need to) share excruciating details with anyone who doesn't "get it." Even if someone wanted to hear it, where would I even begin? We're talking about 40+ years of relentless abuse. My aunt is a very educated and wise woman, and I'm sure that she's seen enough to know that I was harmed. The details don't matter. It's like having a family member who is the victim of physical abuse. Seeing the bruises is enough to tell the story. The graphic details of the beatings aren't necessary. You just know.
Also, my aunt has never truly defended my mother, really just tolerates her. I've never seen her up and take sides. She just goes with the flow. She's a very gentle, passive person - not the type to argue or make waves. She's always remained the neutral party in the room. Based on my cousin's emails, it appears that she's vocal about it when she gets home, but in the presence of M, she tends to play along in the interest of keeping a family get together as peaceful as possible.
One thing that I do plan on doing is writing a memoir. Not for money, but as a way of documenting things. I think it would help me if all of my memories, and all of M's nasty letters, were all together in one place, rather than scattered around in my brain. I could always self-publish for other victims of Ns to read, or just keep it to myself, as a documented account of living with NPD. I had always assumed that M would be unkillable, and live to be 110. But now that she has cancer, I feel that I'm being liberated, and suddenly have this need to start writing about it. I have no idea why that is. Maybe it's because M has ratcheted up the drama, and old wounds (as well as new ones) are being opened. But I feel like the details belong on the printed page, not blabbering out of my mouth.
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Hi Just Kathy,
Anyway, M's sister, the Aunt I referred to above, has a 49-year-old son who went missing about five years ago (he apparently got fed up with the all the family drama and took off). A few weeks ago, that son (my cousin) not only resurfaced, but announced that he's getting married.
Haven't read the entire thread. I'm guessing that your cousin, starry eyed bride-to-be on his arm, resurfaced hoping, to have the semblance of a traditional wedding. Doesn't sound promising does it? You can't help but feel for the predicament they're in.
tt
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Haven't read the entire thread. I'm guessing that your cousin, starry eyed bride-to-be on his arm, resurfaced hoping, to have the semblance of a traditional wedding. Doesn't sound promising does it? You can't help but feel for the predicament they're in.
OMG. I really feel for his fiance, who's about to find out what kind of family she's marrying into. He felt morally obligated to invite everyone in the family to the wedding, but the potential for fireworks is huge. I'm not going to attend, not just because of the travel, but because I feel that it's best to stay away, especially since I've been total NC with my mother for 7 years. My brother (the GC) is coming with his N wife, so it could could turn into the battle of the Ns, trying to take attention away from the bride. You're probably right that he was hoping for a nice traditional wedding, but he really should have eloped. That's what I did when I got married for the second time. I didn't want ANY family within 100 miles of my wedding.
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HI,
Tell them to read Merrel Markoe's book "It's My %##ing Birthday. That book has plenty of examples!
Then tell them, And EVERY DAY may be the date of my death!
Or, btw, I also, just past the anniversary of my death!
tt
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But now that she has cancer, I feel that I'm being liberated, and suddenly have this need to start writing about it. I have no idea why that is.
For me, writing it down made it "official enough"... told in my own words, my own way (with my own emotional evolution to freedom also documented)... for ME. It was finally my side of the story - even with my own faults included - and there wasn't any real need to publish, share it. I even repeated topics, as I'd work through them at another, less emotional (or sometimes more emotional) level. I just packed these up - and there are about 16 separate journals. I found I babbled alot... danced around a fact that made me feel uncomfortable or just whined alot. Then, clarity would hit me over the head and I'd have these realizations...
I considered incinerating them, as a way of "letting it go" ritually... but hubby convinced me not to. He still thinks I need to publish the story to be "done with it", once and for all. I disagree, because all those details, the specifics, of my story are only meaningful to me and only another victim would understand. Publishing while my mother is still alive also adds the risk of re-opening the old struggle (although "fiction" is an option) with her over whose version of that past reality is "correct" - the LAST thing I want, you know?
If you're feeling this need to write it all down, just start it for you, Kathy - write in small bursts at first. Sometimes, I'd only write a single sentence, and other days - lord, I wrote half a day or more! No rules... no grammar-police... or spelling czars... and who cared if my handwriting sucks, or I transposed letters? It was the act of putting pencil (always pencil for me - but seldom erasing) to paper, the physical act of it, that removed the last traces of the "poison arrow" that infected me.
I hope it helps you, too.
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Publishing while my mother is still alive also adds the risk of re-opening the old struggle
This is why I never wrote a word about my my experiences, EVER. As long as M was alive, I didn't dare document anything, even if it were kept in private. I've ony started writing now because I know that she won't be around much longer.
Publishing is something that I'm on the fence about. As you said, only another N victim would understand. But maybe that's a good enough reason to self publish on one of those POD sites. I know that I've gotten tremendous relief and validation from reading the firsthand accounts of other victims. If our own experiences could help another victim, I think it might be worth doing. Of all the books on Ns that I've read, the words that reach me more than any other are stories from actual survivors. That's the ultimate validation that I'm not alone.
I don't know. For now, I'm writing as a form of self-help or therapy. Where it goes from there remains to be seen. If anything, I may just give the finished piece to my therapist. She has asked if she can keep copies of M's nasty letters, so I think she learns from them. If my experiences can be used in a positive way by anyone, I'd have no problem putting it out there. I doubt my writing will ever get past the sloppy journal form, but I think I think putting pencil to paper is a valuable tool in helping us heal. As you said, seeing it in writing somehow makes it "real."
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What I did that I feel safe about is to password-protect a document in which I can vent.
Also, here's a trick for those of you who (like me) are scared of forgetting said passwords: Open a word-processing document for passwords. For every document or website that you need a password, log it into this document. Then, password protect that document. Voila! You only need to remember ONE password --- the password to that document --- and the rest are written down in a safe place!
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I don't think my aunt had any idea what was wrong with my mother, clinically speaking. She had told me that M had been a problem child growing up, had "moments," and general things like that, but few people know what NPD is unless they've sought the help of a professional.
My aunt definitely knew that M was mistreating me, especially when I was a teen. She did what she could to help me, but definitely didn't want to rock the boat. For example, my mother held a family boycott of my high school graduation because she was mad at me for some petty thing. My aunt made the drive from San Diego to L.A., met me at work, and brought me a graduation gift. I think you're absolutely right that she didn't know what to do, so she looked out for me in her own way, without making waves.
I never knew what she really thought of M - if she were just a little "off," or had a genuine mental illness. It now looks like she may have suspected something more serious, but kept it inside. I can't say that I blame her. She only saw bits and pieces of what my mother did to me. Without the full story, there's no way to know, or to even guess at a diagnosis.
Kathy
JK: I think we lead parallel lives in sort. In my NM's case, my aunt on my father's side (my father's sister) knew my M was "off." Since my father and my NM's divorce, I haven't been able to see this aunt as often but suddenly last summer, our relationship rekindled due to some family events and other things (kismet). My aunt and I had a long conversation about my M and WOW!! My aunt told me story after story about my M and her crazy behavior towards everyone. My aunt opened up Pandora's Box. She told me she witnessed my M's abuse to me and my brother and it broke her heart to see her niece and nephew in such pain. My aunt went on to tell me that my grandmother (my aunt's and my father's mother) was so distressed whenever she was at family events that she sometimes avoided them--grandma couldn't stand the way my M treated us or my father. Light bulb moment: I always thought my grandma didn't like us because she acted funny around us and acted differently around my other cousins. My grandmas was AFRAID OF MY M!! She had to walk on eggshells and me as a young child, I noticed this but did not understand it until my aunt told me. I was devastated but I had some answers to this nightmare of what I call my childhood.
My aunt told me she didn't want to rock the boat either. She confessed that she couldn't do a damn thing about it but just ignore my M and not get involved. What could she do? Now that it's 20 years later and I'm now in my 40's, my aunt felt good about telling me and I believe she wanted to get it off her chest, that she knew and felt for us but couldn't say anything at the time...I'm sure this weight on her conscience.
I am grateful for my aunt. I am grateful for her putting up with my NM and helping me with my childhood because she often stepped in and talked with me when I was a child but I never knew why she liked to talk to me so much. She used to take me places with her daughter, my cousin, and I always had a good time.
Now I know why she did what she did.
Bear
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Thank you SO much for sharing that, Bear. I was tearing up while reading it. Your situation is almost identical to mine. It must have been a HUGE moment when your aunt finally opened up to you. I really hope that I get to have such a moment.
The things you wrote about your grandmother also hit home. I know that my grandmother knew more than she ever let on. She, too, seemed to be walking on eggshells. As she got older, she finally started to let things slip out. She lived in Canada, so I didn't get to see her in person very often, but I wrote to her constantly. She NEVER said anything bad about my family in her letters, but near the end, her tone began to change. She stopped referring to my brother (the GC) by name, and began referring to him as "the spoiled brat." Instead of referring to my mother as "Mum," she became "your mother." Very subtle changes, but I think as she came to the end of her life, she stopped caring about being politically correct, and quit worrying about the wrath of M.
My grandmother also knew, somehow, that M had been refusing to congratulate me on getting my college degree. Two days before she died, a cousin who had been caring for GM at her death bed, emailed me and said that Grandma wanted me to know how proud she was that I had worked my way through college, and that SOMEONE needed to tell me. I think that if I had flown to Canada to see her when she was dying, that she might have opened up about it. But she found other ways to get the message through. She definitely knew, and I think that like your grandmother, she was probably also afraid of what M would do to her if she didn't keep quiet.
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JK: That's astounding. I'm in tears. I truly believe your grandmother came to terms with the reality and couldn't die without letting you know that "she knew." And in doing so, she gently said what she needed to convey, albeit, through someone else. The message was clear and you knew she was proud of you...as am I!!
I hope you and your aunt get to talk someday and you can feel free to ask questions. As for me, I let it rip and didn't stop with the questions and my aunt obliged. She could have stopped me at any point but she didn't and for that, I am grateful.
She stopped referring to my brother (the GC) by name, and began referring to him as "the spoiled brat." Instead of referring to my mother as "Mum," she became "your mother." Very subtle changes, but I think as she came to the end of her life, she stopped caring about being politically correct, and quit worrying about the wrath of M.
This is very poignant.
((((((((((((((JK))))))))))))))))))))
Bear
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JK- I'm randomly reading through threads and came across your last post.... That message your Grandmother sent you is just an uplifting, nice thing to hear:)). Good for you!! Validation is sooo healing. What a story of hope, thank you for sharing.
Swimmer