Voicelessness and Emotional Survival Message Board
Voicelessness and Emotional Survival => Voicelessness and Emotional Survival Message Board => Topic started by: HeartofPilgrimage on December 30, 2009, 11:18:05 PM
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I've noticed that there is a high proportion of people on this board that have a LOT of education. Maybe that's because people with more education have figured out what was wrong in their FOO and are able to work on it, but I'm wondering if anybody else had my experience: As a child I always loved school, and I think it was the one place where I could shine and be praised without being simultaneously criticized and put down. It was the one place where I was competent. People looked up to me because I was a good student. I got awards. I got opportunities.
At home, praise was scarce and when it came it was coupled with some kind of qualification. I was treated like I was incompetent. I wasn't taught to do things and then was criticized for not doing them correctly.
School had clear-cut things you did, and then you really did get rewarded when you did them.
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I have an advanced degree, but I got it later in life (at 40). I did for my own personal satisfaction, but also did it as an act of defiance. My NM never wanted me to have a college education. She paid to send my brother (the GC) to college, where he dragged his feet and became a perpetual student for over a decade. She also paid for my sister's college education, only because S agreed to pursue the career that M had chosen for her. In my case, M told told me that I couldn't have a degree because she never got to have one. In her distorted mind, a college degree was something you found under the tree at Christmas, not something you earned. So long story short, I worked two jobs, went to school at night, and busted my behind to defy her. And yes, it felt good to watch her implode with rage when I got my MBA. To this day, she still won't acknowledge my accomplishment.
As for your thoughts on school being a "safe" place, yes, I very much felt that as a child. I was always an over-achiever, but M would never praise me for that. She would only tell me that I wasn't good enough, and that I should be doing better. When I was in school, I was rewarded for my efforts, and it helped me through the tough times at home. As a child I always wanted to work in a creative field, but M would not allow me to take art or music classes as she had decided that I was going to medical school, and the arts were for "dumb" kids who couldn't do any better. One year, all the classes were full, so I ended taking an elective drafting class just to fill a slot. I LOVED that class. It was a form of art. I was so proud when the teacher would praise my work, because M was always telling me me that drafting was for the stupid kids. For the first time I felt like I really fit in, so having that validated by the teacher meant the world to me. When you're at such a vulnerable age, it HURTS when your parents criticize your school work. Some of the teachers I had, the ones who truly nurtured my talents, will always have a special place in my heart.
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Yes, I agree. I loved school. I still love to learn and now teach at college level. My N parents encouraged me to learn, yet criticized everything I learned. When I mentioned a new thing I learned, they said I was wrong and whatever it was I learned was "stupid, where did you get that idea". I think they encouraged learning because that was what was socially acceptable. They wanted to appear enlightened and educated themselves but were not open to learning, since they knew it all already.
I received conflicting messages. Go to college but "you'll never finish". When I told my dad I had one B and the rest A's in my four years at college, he said "I didn't know you were so smart." Even as I write this it brings tears to my eyes. My N parents don't really know me and what I am capable of. BUT - my teachers did. So I really gained alot of confidence because of their support.
Even when I began teaching part-time, taught for 8 years, then one year enrollment was down and the college didn't need me. My N parents figured it was becauselie I didn't do a very good job teaching rather than enrollment was down. Imagine my delight when I received the award for Outstanding Associate Faculty of the year. AND surprise because my parents didn't believe I was good, so I didn't believe that I was good. But "school" thought I was good.
Yes, school gave me validation that I did not receive at home.
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My N parents encouraged me to learn, yet criticized everything I learned. When I mentioned a new thing I learned, they said I was wrong and whatever it was I learned was "stupid, where did you get that idea". I think they encouraged learning because that was what was socially acceptable.
Yes! My NM encouraged education because she thought she would achieve higher social status if her children were smart and well educated. She wanted to brag that her child was an honor student, but didn't give a rat's behind about my actual studies. She criticized everything I learned, unless it was something that was of interest to her. I was always eager to learn, and taught myself to read at age four, prior to starting kindergarten. When I wanted to read something to her, she shrugged me off with "big deal, whatever," then ran to her friends bragging about how smart I was. She didn't care about my actual achievement, only what she could gain from it.
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Yes, education starting in college was a great experience for me. Somehow in grade and high school my mom rained on any parade I had. Some of my teachers focused on my GC bro and actually asked me what ever happened to me..... My mom would get a hold of that info and tell this as a "joke" to everyone. My 2nd grade teacher approached my mom and said she was worried about all the attention my bro got, of course my mom denied this and accused this teacher of being really hard on her own children. Anyways..... Once I went off to college, she couldn't touch any of my success. Graduation was rediculous though, my mom didn't even socialize with my professors at any reception. She just stood there like.... Duh. She can't keep her trap shut when she is destroying something though.
Brilliant post, brings to light the chances we all took advantage when momster turned her head.
Swimmer
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I was fortunate in a lot of ways because my mother was not as out-of-control as many other N moms were. So, she didn't really put down what I achieved and didn't castigate me for the occasional low grade either. It was just that achievements were taken for granted rather than given positive feedback, so that I did not value my achievements that much either. My dad, who was not an N, would say, "Good" matter of factly. But he also was matter of fact about low grades ... just asked "Did you do your best?" and if I answered "Yes" he'd say "OK, then. That's all I can ask."
My mom had a hard time praising and I have had the same problem. I had to force myself to verbally praise, and for a long time it felt stilted and fake. But I knew logically I needed to do it so I made myself praise my kids until it felt more natural.
Actually, my experience with my mom kind of sheds light on the whole process of becoming an N, because she is sort of halfway between "normals" and the abusers that some of you others have experienced. Very uncomfortable with emotions, well, with POSITIVE emotions. She is much more in touch with her negative emotions --- anger and anxiety. You can tell that she feels understood if I tell her I am worried about her. I have learned to let go of a lot of my own anxiety and worry, but that is still how I express to her that I care. I know that she understands the word "worry" as an expression that I care about her.
The main thing school did for me was to give me a venue where I could know what the criteria for success was, I could show that I could meet those criteria, and I was free to pursue my interests. And wonder of wonders, I became successful at it!
At home, my mom's environment, she did everything for me and then complained that nobody ever helped her. She did that to my dad too. She didn't rage or anything, but you were always in a catch-22 bind. She had to have everything done on her schedule and done her way, yet she felt mistreated because she "had" to do everything. More like she trained us not to try! She had no patience for teaching me to do anything. She would give lip service to knowing that patience is a virtue, but would also laugh about having no patience like she was proud of it. Very subtle crazy-making.
My cousin recently had an experience with his N mother (my mother's sister) that is just an exaggeration of what both of us have always gone through with our moms. His very elderly father recently had hip surgery, and the drs. gave very specific instructions on what to do to build him back up to health. One of those instructions is to remove all obstacles, including things like throw rugs, from the house, and to use a special chair in the bathtub. My cousin installed the bath chair for his dad, all the while his mother was complaining it was in her way. His mother refused to fix the house (they live in a very small, post-WWII frame home, most cities have whole neighborhoods with houses like that so you can probably picture it). She collects all kinds of crap --- dolls, porcelain figures, etc. so their house is pretty crowded. There are throw rugs in the threshold of every door in the house. My aunt's idea of caring for her husband was to keep him in his chair (after all he might fall with all that crap in his way) and to give him "spit baths" --- the Southern expression for sponge baths --- in his chair. My cousin was furious. He felt his mom was deliberately trying to keep his dad debilitated, although to hear her tell it she was sooooo attentive.
That is an extreme example but it is similar to what I went through growing up. My mom felt she was soooo attentive, but it could have easily have had the effect of debilitating me.
It wasn't just my mom. Even though my Dad was not an N, he was wrapped in cottonwool by his parents (his dad was probably an N), and did his share of passing along the pattern. I do have to give my mom a great big credit --- she stood up to my dad and insisted I be allowed to go away to college. That is a biggie and I would feel unjust if I did not say that. Of course, we lived in a huge metropolitan area, and she felt I would be safer at the small university in a small town that I wanted to attend, as opposed to driving in the city every day to go to school from home. So that turned out well, no matter what her motives were. She also knew that when I went off to college, she would prefer not to know every time I came and went, because of her own nerves. I guess I can relate to that, although it seems like a selfish reason to do the right thing.
My mom's narcissism was so subtle that if she hadn't gotten worse in her later years, I might never have seen it. My dad was terminally ill when I went back for my masters degree, and my mom was very nasty to me about it. I guess because it was taking time away from them. It seems like when she is under stress she gets nasty rather than depressed.
No matter how subtle it was though, it took its toll on me. Earlier in life I could not have explained to you why school was such a liberating place for me, but it was. Mom's need to be the only competent one in the house had a bad effect on me, whether I recognized it or not.
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Grade school was a nightmare because I was CONSTANTLY being compared with NGCB. On top of that, corporal punishment, by teachers, were permitted back then and one NTeacher delighted in actively abusing every single student that passed through her classroom. NWomb-Donor got in her face because she DARED touch the NGCB. Can you imagine two N's facing off against each other?!?!?!? Two years later, when I had to go into this NB*TCH's classroom, she knew that I was the younger sister of NGCB and the daughter of the NWomb-Donor who DARED to DEFY HER! She delighted in torturing me in front of the whole class! And to make it worse, I got NO protection at home from NWomb-Donor as she would pile it on even more! I was completely on my own in THIRD GRADE with ABSOLUTELY NO PROTECTION FROM ANYONE!!!!!
Two years later, a fifth grade teacher started educating every single parent of a student who had been victimized by this NTeacher during third grade. When she called for a conference with the NWomb-Donor, I was TERRIFIED that I was going to get ANOTHER beating because I DARED make HER look bad! My fifth grade teacher showed the NWomb-Donor the documentation that I was NOT the only student struggling. This compassionate teacher proved to NWomb-Donor that EVERY student who was victimized in third grade were all struggling with the same academics because the third grade NTeacher was more focused on torturing us instead of teaching us what we were SUPPOSED to learn! By coincidence, the NTeacher from third grade was attempting to become the next principal of the school! Fortunately, enough parents banded together to block her!!!! Unfortunately, it did NOT change the NWomb-Donor's opinion of me.
The only time I finally started to excel, academically, was when I got out of grade school and started attending community college...earning A's and B's. Sadly, even then, I was still constantly being bombarded with: "You're a WASTE of SPACE! You're TOO RETARDED to be there! Your brother is PERFECT!" (NWomb-Donor IGNORED the fact that NGCB dropped out of community college, on the GI Bill! He claimed he was "bored"! I think the REAL reason was because he did NOT want to take the required physical education class due to being morbidly obese.)
Even after I went on to university, graduated summa cum laude with a bachelor's, then later obtained a master's degree in science, specializing in addiction psychology, there are STILL NRelatives who persist in calling me "retarded"! :P :P I'm continuing to strive to remain NC with them!
Bones
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Even after I went on to university, graduated summa cum laude with a bachelor's, then later obtained a master's degree in science, specializing in addiction psychology, there are STILL NRelatives who persist in calling me "retarded"!
I totally relate to this one. When I got my MBA, I graduated with honors and a perfect 4.0 GPA, but my NM also persisted at implying that I'm stupid. Not only does she refuse to acknowledge the college degree in any way, but continues to make statements like "poor Kathy was never very good in school," "Kathy was never really that bright," and so on. She never wanted me to have that achievement. She has only a HS diploma, and tried very hard to keep me from getting a college degree. It's been ten years since I graduated, and she's still furious that I pulled it off. She has told me that she will never congratulate me because "she never got to have a college degree." Was she expecting to find one under the Christmas tree, wrapped up with a bow on top? She seems unclear on the fact that you have to EARN it.
NM is allegedly dying of cancer, and recently sent me this over-the-top drama queen letter telling me that no mother was ever as proud of their daughter as she was of me, bla bla bla, yet STILL will not acknowledge that I ever went to college, let alone graduated. She will die without ever making that acknowledgment. I think it's one of the things that has angered her the most in life. She was determined that I not have a higher education than she did, and refused to pay my tuition. She never expected that I might show some determination, and work my own way through college. It just kills her that I somehow foiled her plan. How dare I!
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Bones and Kathy ... I am so sorry for your experiences ... but let me just say CONGRATULATIONS! You found a place where you could excel and you took advantage of it! And you have concrete evidence that Ns that can't be happy for their own kids' success, well they're the retarded ones. Emotionally retarded.
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Thank you! I think when someone, especially a parent, is determined to see you fail, it makes you more determined to succeed. I didn't need an advanced degree to further my career, but I wanted it to prove to myself that I could do it. And yes, I wanted to shove it in HER face too. All the hard work was worth it to watch her have a meltdown over being defeated. She tried so hard to keep me down, and just couldn't.
Sad, isn't it, that a parent would become furious over their child's success. Not just disappointed, but downright angry. Pretty sick.
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Even after I went on to university, graduated summa cum laude with a bachelor's, then later obtained a master's degree in science, specializing in addiction psychology, there are STILL NRelatives who persist in calling me "retarded"!
I totally relate to this one. When I got my MBA, I graduated with honors and a perfect 4.0 GPA, but my NM also persisted at implying that I'm stupid. Not only does she refuse to acknowledge the college degree in any way, but continues to make statements like "poor Kathy was never very good in school," "Kathy was never really that bright," and so on. She never wanted me to have that achievement. She has only a HS diploma, and tried very hard to keep me from getting a college degree. It's been ten years since I graduated, and she's still furious that I pulled it off. She has told me that she will never congratulate me because "she never got to have a college degree." Was she expecting to find one under the Christmas tree, wrapped up with a bow on top? She seems unclear on the fact that you have to EARN it.
NM is allegedly dying of cancer, and recently sent me this over-the-top drama queen letter telling me that no mother was ever as proud of their daughter as she was of me, bla bla bla, yet STILL will not acknowledge that I ever went to college, let alone graduated. She will die without ever making that acknowledgment. I think it's one of the things that has angered her the most in life. She was determined that I not have a higher education than she did, and refused to pay my tuition. She never expected that I might show some determination, and work my own way through college. It just kills her that I somehow foiled her plan. How dare I!
(((((((((((((((((JustKathy)))))))))))))))))))))
I think these NWomb-Donors are INSANELY jealous when they can't FORCE their control down our throats! Wouldn't we love to simply "flip the bird" at all of them?
Bones
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Bones and Kathy ... I am so sorry for your experiences ... but let me just say CONGRATULATIONS! You found a place where you could excel and you took advantage of it! And you have concrete evidence that Ns that can't be happy for their own kids' success, well they're the retarded ones. Emotionally retarded.
Thanks, HoP!
That is SO true that N's are Emotionally Retarded!
Bones
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Thank you! I think when someone, especially a parent, is determined to see you fail, it makes you more determined to succeed. I didn't need an advanced degree to further my career, but I wanted it to prove to myself that I could do it. And yes, I wanted to shove it in HER face too. All the hard work was worth it to watch her have a meltdown over being defeated. She tried so hard to keep me down, and just couldn't.
Sad, isn't it, that a parent would become furious over their child's success. Not just disappointed, but downright angry. Pretty sick.
That is so sad and sick! It reminds me of what happened to Tatum O'Neal when she won her Oscar for "Paper Moon". Her Nfather PUNCHED her!
Bones
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School was a nightmare because of bullying, by the time I escaped to a larger more anonymous place and hid out with the hippies and literary mag group I was numb from rejection.
But education, as distinct from school, did save me. Reading, specifically.
We had no television until I was 14 and I read fiction compulsively throughout my childhood. It built worlds in my head.
The other thing was travel--at 10 and 14, I was plucked out of our racist snobbish little town to drive madly around 13 countries for three months in the back seat of a Simca. The culture shock of that also saved me...I saw so many contradictory things that it implicitly taught me there was more than one way to live, even to think.
Later, in the freedom of adulthood, I had a chance (hobbled by N-rearing, but still a chance) to heal by thinking, challenging the conventions.
I'll always be grateful to my Dad for those trips. I think travel is a godsend for children. For everyone, if you don't stay too insulated from the real culture of wherever it is.
xo
Hops
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Just the polar opposite for me. I had trouble with math in school, hit a wall. Then, had the teacher from hell, for all of third and fourth grade. Called me stupid in front of the class, made fun of me, did every thing she could to destroy any fragile self esteem I may have had. I begged NM to help me, go to school, complain, PLEASE!!! To no avail. it was my fault and why can't I get good grades like my sister (GC)??? From then on, school was a terrible chore for me. I hated it. I am a late bloomer, went back to school for pre-requisites for nursing at 36, and graduated as an R.N. when I was nearly 41. This whole thing nearly ruined my life.
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Kathy,
That is EXACTLY the way my mother thinks. Wants to be able to brag about her children. She did some bragging about my success becoming an R.N. But that was soon done with, when I changed jobs from hospital woek to nursing homes. This was not "braggable" for her. :x
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My situation is a little different. My parents managed to destroy my educational progress at several points via a succession of incredibly bad moves either change my school or literally moving to a place where I didn't fit in at all. I started out life with excellent abilities in math and english, but by the time I got to Junior High I was almost unable to learn because of severe emotional difficulties. I would test very high and be placed in gifted classes only to perform marginally because I could not concentrate. When I did win praise or awards, my parents were either indifferent or they showed up and overshadowed my moment in the sun by bringing along some "important" friend of theirs and introducing that person to everyone. It was so embarrassing that I learned to shun the spotlight. Since they never taught me anything about dealing with normal life issues I felt inferior at work and never tried to assume a position of importance there either.
Once I got away from them I no longer had issues with school and achieved advanced degrees without a problem. I excelled in technical computer areas and as our school moved toward online education I was pushed to the forefront and sought out by co-workers. I became important by default since no one else could do what I could and the skill was needed.
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I never had to compete with my brother (the GC) because NM pulled him out of the public school system pre-high school, and sent him to a very pricey private academy. She had "issues" with the public high school, said the school was "good enough" for her two girls, but her son deserved better.
I think the big issue that she had with the high school was that she couldn't control them. When I was younger and in elementary school, she joined the PTA, got heavily involved in the goings on at the school, and was able to control the classes I took and the teachers I had. She also got close to the teachers at the PTA meetings, and was able to get them to report back on our classroom activity, so she knew EVERYTHING that I was doing. When I got to HS, they told her to bug off, so she lost that ability to monitor my activities. At the same time, I started showing signs of independence as I became a teenager. That's when her N traits really started to show. She blamed the school for it, saying that they allowed me to get out of control. School became better for me then, because she lost those inside connections, and the ability to spy on me.
When she sent my brother to private school, I remember her telling everyone that the public high school "ruined my girls, but I won't let them ruin my son." Here's the funny part . . . I went to the same high school in L.A. (Burbank) that Ron Howard and Tim Burton went to. Oddly, the school seemed to work out just fine for them.
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That is EXACTLY the way my mother thinks. Wants to be able to brag about her children.
My brother was born ten years after me, so I remember very clearly what M was like when he was an infant. Within days of her bringing him home from the hospital, she was telling everyone that he was going to be a doctor when he grew up (specifically, a brain surgeon). I imagine she did the same thing when I was born, as I was told all of my life that I was going to medical school. But when it became apparent that I wasn't going to be a doctor, she really turned on me. More than once, she had one of her foot-stomping tantrums, and would yell "I told everyone that you were going to be a doctor." My happiness didn't matter. She simply wanted the bragging rights of being able to say that her child was a doctor.
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Hi Heart,
I think that boards like this are more likely to attract people who are somewhat comfortable writing. Typically, those are people who were pretty comfortable in academics--you need fairly good writing skills to get very far in higher education. That may be the connection between education and the children of N's.
I have thought more than once, that we are a pretty talkative bunch, considering the fact that we are voiceless! :? I'll bet that one of our biggest common traits is that we know what we are thinking and know how to express it....that could be why we we are even wounded by the fact that we werent allowed to express ourselves. There are lots and lots of people out there who dont have much to say and who dont feel the constraints that we have felt about expressing ourselves.
I hadnt realized that until I got out in the work world. There's a world of hurt out here.
CB
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CB, you are right about the prevalence of voicelessness/emotional problems "out here"... along with helplessness and despair about "what to do about it". Even suspicion, if you truly ask for and value someone's feedback...
Somewhere along the educational spectrum, I think there needs to be some instruction for all on "emotional communication". A seminar on how to be "heard" with respect and what to do, if there is no respect. An explanation of boundaries - when to strengthen them... and how to learn when it's safe to let them down and let other people in. Sort of like the old courses that taught "professional demeanor" or business etiquette...
and most of all, Business Schools need to immediately STOP thinking in terms of people as a "resource" or "commodity" - or as replaceable, identical machine "parts". They are people, they all bring different things to a job and therefore do a job differently. Managers should think more like coaches and try to find people for all the "positions" who are compatible, collaboratively creative, willing to speak freely (even in criticism within compassionate terms)... if they want a "winning team". Be able to invest in these people... teach, encourage - then get out of their way and let them do their jobs... and then, yes - a recognition ritual of successes or reward system, is necessary... as well as analysis of "what went wrong" in failures (without blame). Failure is an opportunity to LEARN... but we, as a society, seem to be uncomfortable with that. It's just so common nowadays, to find someone to blame and then punish them for the whole situation....
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CB,
You realy hit the nail on the head. We were NEVER allowed to express ourselves (unless the expression directly mirrored NM's beliefs.) We were also forbidden to show any negative emotions, such as anger, sadness, etc. NM always sent us to our room, so she didn't have to deal with us. I used to scream into my pillow.