Voicelessness and Emotional Survival Message Board
Voicelessness and Emotional Survival => Voicelessness and Emotional Survival Message Board => Topic started by: nolongeraslave on January 02, 2010, 06:32:44 PM
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I think that many of our problems come from not being mirrored. Read Dr G's essays on mirroring. My theory is that sociopathic men SEEM to mirror you. It is so exciting and soul nourishing to SEEM to be mirrored that we fall at their feet. They are playing a mirroring game and we are SO desperate that we buy it. However, it is not true mirroring and so we pay for the lie.The man who can seem to mirror can get ALL sorts of woman to fall at his feet. I have seen in it in 3D.
True mirroring is the answer, though.I think true mirroring is how we heal. xxxooo Ami
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I had a doctor once who told me that you would not be attracted to Ns or sociopaths if you were not raised in an environment where that kind of person seemed normal to you. I believe that. Just as children who were raised in healthy families seek out and are attracted to "healthy" people, ones who treat them well and respect them, so do children of Ns find themselves often in relationships with Ns or sociopaths. That's what they know...because that's how they were raised.
I also think that it is just aspects of the N or S which are on some level attractive to us...Their extreme self-confidence, apparent (but not real) self-esteeem, their often outgoing personality..These are all trains, in my view, which are often lacking in us as adult children of Ns...charactertistics we may long for in ourselves, but cannot have. I also believe because we were raised in environments where N is the norm, the behavior exhibited by an N person we meet does not signal any red flags...it is normal. "Healthy" people would probably quickly spot something wrong....
Perhaps try to identify those traits in those men you're attracted to...and see if they are really things that are lacking in yourself, that you might like to develop...or to look for someone who treats you well but who possesses these traits. It is hard..we're attracted to who we're attracted to...but trying to analyze why we're attracted to that person might help.
Just a thought.
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TT
A pheremone event, for some of us, is like an alarm bell going off - it's a warning, with flashing lights, sirens and 'caution' signs in neon. What sort of pheremone events do healthy people have? Do they think/feel "he's just like my Dad, I really want to make babies with him?". Maybe.
No longer - can we change the "infatuation switch"? I think we can dampen it down a lot by seeing what it is that attracts us, and how destructive that is. We can override the biology with thinking. Can we switch that biology? I imagine it's possible, if you really want to.
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Fair enough TT, I don't think you're in danger of thread-hijacking.
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I'm doing that right now, where I've been single/celibate for a few years. It has helped a lot. I have stood up to guys that were trying to lure me back in the web of dysfunction.
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Dear NLAS
I think our choices in men are based on our FOO. Our Foo(Family of Origin) imprints are in us deeply. Right now, you are trying to be aware .
I don't think you can change who you have the "zing" for. I HOPE(dear God) that we can get to where we truly love and respect ourselves enough that we simply would not be interested in a user type of guy :that our radar would say "No" instead of "Yes".
That is my prayer for us who suffer from poor choices b/c we are trying to heal from N dysfunction.
This is a wonderful thread! xxxoo Ami
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I bought this book http://www.amazon.com/Silently-Seduced-Children-Partners-Understanding/dp/1558741313
a few years back and am just reading it now. The case studies are eye-opening.
Maybe it's a little like that really fatty, oozing pizza that tastes good on the first bite, but eat any more and you'll feel awful and stick a load of horribly unhealthy calories into your body. Maybe we can identify the pizza as dangerous and sickly (even though we'd like a bite).
I'm really getting to appreciate and love the taste of vegetables. Maybe it's about changing our tastes and liking things that are good for us, as Ami infers?
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What is the book about Portia? Ami
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Ami, it's about me and all my immediate family, and their families. I can see my ex-stepfather, his ex-wife, his children and his mother, my stepfather, his ex-wives, and his mother and father, my mother and her siblings and their parents, myself and my past, my present and that of people around me now.
And I learned what 'tolerance' means, in terms of addiction (not for me, I don't suffer in that way). Before I found this board, I'd printed off a load of info about addiction from the web, thinking it was The Problem my mother had. In a way, I was on the track but a very very long way from 'me'. But anyway, the case studies in this book describe her to me in a way which any NPD symptom list doesn't quite.
I have an idea I can see various pasts, and I have an idea that makes me uneasy about the present/future, kind of blasted onto my eyeballs by this book. Odd how things turn out isn't it? When I got the book, I thought: "this isn't for me".
That's one type of answer Ami?
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I was blessed in my choice of hubby, but I have a cousin who says she made a LOGICAL (as opposed to emotional) choice when it came to husbands. She broke up with the male wild child she had been engaged to, and moved to another city so that she could get to know a potential guy better ... this potential guy was stable, steady, smart, no wildness, and a kind and giving person. SHe says she didn't immediately fall in love, but gave him time and eventually she did love him. They are still married 23 years later, and of the three sisters in that family, she is the happiest.
Of those three sisters, one other didn't marry til she was 35 and picked a narcissist loser whom she divorced less than 5 years later. The other sister drowns her sorrows in alcohol.
Their father could have been a borderline personality --- he was abusive and was known for his outrageous rages. He signed away his rights to visit them when he fell behind in child support. Then he built a shrine to them as babies and little girls in his house. Their mother was a real good "victim" personality. So anyway, the one girl to escape the intergenerational patterns had to do it with her head not her heart.
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That is interesting, HOP, about the head choice. The heart can be a Zing choice which could be FOO magnet material.
Portia,I am probably slow on the uptake but I am still not understanding how the book is so eye opening for you. I would love to learn cuz I value your opinions very much.
If you care to write more about it, I would love to hear. I can't grasp the essence of what you are saying. xxxoo Ami
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Dear No Longer
I have started just being very accepting of who I am, how I have been shaped. I like who I like--I'm attracted to whom I am attracted. I let myself like them, but recognize the limits to the relationship...
I am in a relationship with a big dreamer--these are the guys I am always attracted to. They arent too practical but they are so engaging and interesting. It has happened over and over again in my life time. I guess I have decided to quit trying to change them and quit trying to change me and just enjoy.
But, I think you are talking about guys who are more pathological. I wonder if you can dissect what it is that you are attracted to in them. You arent attracted to the pathology--it must be something else, something that is probably very appealing and probably not the pathological part at all. If you can dissect exactly what it is, maybe you will know what to look for in non-pathological guys.
Are you attracted to the feeling of being a little off-balance, a little bit in "danger"? Maybe you could replace a dangerous relationship with some activities that create the adrenaline rush. If that is being satisfied somewhere else, you wont have to look for it in a relationship. And you might meet someone with similar interests in the process. Are you attracted to his unavailability? Maybe if you create a wide margin of personal space in your relationships, you wont need for him to do that by being unavailable.
I guess what I am saying is that there may be some part of you that needs to be acknowledged and affirmed, so you dont have to bury it in a bad relationship. Once you celebrate that part of you, it may free you to find someone who is safe.
CB
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Hi NoLonger,
It can and will change over time, if you continue the reading/working/learning you're already doing. You're not "doomed" to love only cold or angry or avoidant or commitmentphobic men long term, and your "tastes" really can change.
It began to change for me during a process when I began to recognize my blind strong attraction to hurt -- men who were tragically hurt themselves and manifested that hurt in a way that would hurt me (aggression or, more often, unavailability in myriad ways, so I withered w/loneliness). My empathy drew me to their hurt, my confusion of love with self-sacrifice (still) had me stay far too long.
I used to know that if you lined up six men in a bar: 5 decent, reliable, kind, unremarkable-looking men, and 1 good-looking "bad boy" with a sneer on his face who had deep fear and dislike of women...well, superficial me, I went for him. I'd practically herniate myself trying to get that one to love me.
BUT IT'S CHANGED. Put me near that same lineup now and I might pause or feel wistful for a brief moment on meeting "bad boy" (part of me would remember my old pattern of craving "fusion" with a cold man, from the get-go) but today I would quickly have a REAL feeling of being repelled away from a man who would act out his hurt by hurting me...and feel more drawn to the kind ones, the funny ones, the gentle ones. And drawn to them gently, slowly, without the need for speed.
Today, I dream of a warm handclasp and shared glance and good steady human with a warm heart and functioning wit. Back then...some bodice-ripper cover where the pirate is ravishing the twit, I mean, the heroine.
I know passion can kick in with kind people, too, given maturity and time.
I've just come to recognize that compassion is more important to me.
Hops
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I am coming to believe that Dr G's essay on mirroring holds the key to our recovery. I was not mirrored as most of us on the Board were not. Mirroring is an essential stage when the Mother shows the child it's OWN face.The Mother teaches you who you are by HER responses to you. That is the way a child gets a self.
The N M is a blank(non self) and does not mirror so they child becomes a blank, too
I see this in myself ,now. I wanted a partner to take away my blankness and infuse a personhood in me.I wanted him to tell me that I had the right to be a self.
I think that when you need this, you get the womanizer type of guy cuz he appears to know every inch of your glorious body and mind. It is a lie, of course, but he seems to pseudo--mirror you. That is the hook. We are as desperate for mirroring as a starving man.
It is not our faults.
I saw it with our gorgeous hunk of a guy who came on the Board. I hope I don't have to name him cuz he is gone. All the woman went goo-goo for him,myself included :lol: :lol:.
I wondered about this phenomenon . I have seen it in 3D as we all have and many of us have been involved in that type of "man made me crazy" phenomen.
My theory is that it comes down to the unmirrored person finding a mirror and the mirror is the most beautiful thing in the world to them.
They feel that they can SEE themselves finally.
Of course, the only way to truly see ourselves is to be genuinely mirrored.
Please compost what does not fit. I don't want to get in to a discussion of my theory of the guy on the Board. Just reject it if it does not fit for you, please. xxxoo Ami
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Ami, mmm, the essence of what I'm saying...I'm not sure. How about this. I couldn't have read this book before because i wouldn't have understood (mind and heart) what the guy is saying. Now I understand it in both ways and can say: hello, my name is Portia and I'm a covert incest survivor (possibly an overt incest survivor but hey, i don't know about that), amongst a lot of other things that P is too (including suddenly having the urge to talk about herself in the third person, a sure sign of, er, denial/resistence/dissociation/oh I can't remember what it's a sign of except that i read it somewhere and thought oh boy I mustn't do that then, otherwise I'll be packaged and labelled before you can say 'chiller cabinet'!). And I can the effects of similar family stuff on other people around me through their romantic relationships, patterns of sexual behaviour and dysfunction.
Nism plays a big part too. Is Nism necessarily linked to intimacy wipe-outs and warped sexual behaviour? Seems to be unavoidable to me. Was I N'ic at one point, as mentioned in a case study in this book? Oh yes, to a degree, love addiction and all the rest of it. But then it's a matter of degree that makes a big difference. Does that help Ami?
Hey, I missed your gorgeous guy, but me, i don't really go for them. Gorgeous puts me right off - that's one saving grace eh? 8)
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Gorgeous verbally, dear Portia. :lol: :lol:
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Dear Portia
I am thinking of getting in a support group for incest survivors. I don't even know if I am one cuz what my M did may not be incest . Incest is such a horrible word and you don't want to be any where near it but I have a level of pain that other people don't seem to get and I think I need to find a population that does get it.
One friend got the level of pain cuz he had a similar type of betrayal. Maybe , the worst part is the betrayal. I don't know but the pain is really bad when your M violates you in any sexual way.
Ami
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Ami, very few men I've known were gorgeous verbally!
Anyone who feels they would gain from joining a support group, I say go for it. What your M did I'd call sexual abuse. Is that incest? Does it matter? Is it physical sexual abuse or emotional sexual abuse, or both?
I guess what matters most is its effect and the pain it causes now.
I'm beginning to see that the no contact rule for those who feel such pain can be an enormous benefit.
For me, I think and feel I've worked through a lot of the sexual emotional abuse/inappropriate using 'caretaking' relationships. I understand what was going on and how it affected me and have been through a few epiphanies. If anything is locked in my head, it's not 'talking to me' now through dreams or motivations. Maybe there's nothing else there, but of course I wouldn't know.
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^Ami-I do think what your mom did was incest. It's tough to admit though.
There has been great advice iand examples n this thread. I'm going to sound religious for a second, but I'm just going to trust God and my instincts to lead me to a nice person. :oops:
Dating without NM is a good, yet SCARY, feeling. I don't know what I want sometimes, because NM was the one who ultimately decided who I was supposed to be with. It sounds screwed up ,but I tried to choose boyfriends that would please her! I learned the hard way that NOBODY could please her.
If a good man were to come in my life, I'm sure NM would feel threatened and try to make him look bad.
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Dear NLAS
I married my H so my M would finally love me. I understand how you dated FOR your NM. I think you are right, Sweetie, to trust God and also your own deep knowing.
xxxoo Ami
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Dear Friends
I know it sounds so silly but I have such a hard time really accepting that I could be in a book for abused kids or kids molested by the mother.
It feels like it is not me.
The me I know did not have this happen to her.
Do you understand what I mean? Ami
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Hey No longer
nothing wrong with being religious or trusting that God (and your instincts!) will lead you to a nice person. Wondered why that might be 'wrong'?
Ami, the me I know was pretty screwed up from an early age - didn't see it but have pieced it together over the last few years. I looked very hard at my own behaviour, motivations, even the things that I could identify that made the 'zing' (and those things are from a mixture of people). I accept it was me and is me to an extent, but we keep changing, thank goodness! It's tough to accept but necessary I think.
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Yes ,Portia acceptance is crucial! xxxoo Ami
PS Great thread NLAS
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Dear NLAS
I feel so dirty to think I was an incest survivor. When I first retrieved the repressed memory, I did not take a bath for 3 weeks. I know that *I* am the victim and NOT dirty but I feel it. Ami