Voicelessness and Emotional Survival Message Board

Voicelessness and Emotional Survival => Voicelessness and Emotional Survival Message Board => Topic started by: English on January 09, 2010, 07:16:49 AM

Title: rambling realizations
Post by: English on January 09, 2010, 07:16:49 AM
I'm slowly coming to many realizations after reading all your wonderful posts since September.  I discovered that month that NM was an N.  I've been watching her and thinking about me.  My DH talks about his childhood in such happy terms, happy memories.  If I remember my childhood at all it is with a great sadness.  I always thought it was normal to be sad about your childhood, but then I think about my son's childhood.  Those memories of him growing up make me very happy; they make me feel good. 

NF sent me a calendar with family photos on it for Christmas.  I looked through it once and there is no way I am going to hang it up.  Every picture brought back sad/bad memories.and/or feelings.    Except the front cover which is a photo of my Grandmother's house.  That gives me a warm feeling, but the photos inside--nope.  Almost all photos taken by NP's are of the family lined up in a row, maybe one a year.  There very few pictures of when we were kids.  No baby pictures. 

I was reading a magazine at the dentist's office yesterday and it showed ideas of things parents can do with their kids, encourage their playing, their imaginations, do things with them.  The ONLY thing I remember doing with parents is playing board games.  We never did anything creative or playful.  No art was encouraged.  Nothing creative.  NP's did praise us for good school work, so of course, I was good in school.  That's the only praise.  There are so many ways they weren't there for me.  I'm very sad on all that I lost out.

Regarding NM, I am starting to see all the ways she made herself feel good through me or at my expense.  She always invalidates my feelings.  I told her that I can't sing (anyone can tell you that--can't hold a tune, not even happy birthday),  she took my head in her hands and said "Don't ever say that, of course you can sing."  That was a really weird moment.  Now I understand that what I said was a put-down of HER.    I understand now why my feelings are "wrong".  Why my not liking plays or musicals is "wrong."  She said, "Where did I go wrong?" when I said that I didn't like live shows.  My opinion was wrong.  Anytime my opinions were not the same as NP's they were wrong.  That's probably why I don't have or at least voice my opinions, I don't know what other people think the correct opinion is.  My feelings aren't valid.

I am also very hypercritical of people, but at the same time I know this and that it is my mother's opinions coming through me, so I don't say anything to people or let them know the critical things I am thinking in any way.  It's like I have two brains:  That idiot is screwing things up; no he's not, he's just doing it differently than the way you would do them, but it will still work.  I am extremely aware of my prejudices.  I have them, but do not act on them as far as I can tell. 

I feel bad for NM; I know she is unhappy and very fragile, but so am I.  It is my LIFE now that I need to be lliving, not hers. 

Total proof of her lack of empathy:  One of her very old dogs died this week.  It had been very ill with heart worms and suffering tremendously.  Did she try to ease its suffering or put it to sleep.  Did she spend time with it?  No she kept it in the backyard, never played with it, never took care of it other than food and water.  So she called my hysterically crying that her 11 year old dog died.  She wasn't crying for the dog; she was crying for attention.  My cat was dying from kidney failure this summer; we had to put her to sleep; she was suffering too much.  I shed a couple of tears and was sad.  I do miss her 16 year old sweet self.  But I didn't start bawling for attention. 

I'm noticing my adult memories good or bad I think back with pleasant thoughts.  Some are of sad moments, but I also remember happy times.  I remember fond memories of my cat for instance.  But thinking back to before college, it's sad, it's feelings of loss, unhappiness, sadness, longing for a childhood I didn't have.  Sorry about the rambling, just needed to write.  Thanks for listening. :)
Title: Re: rambling realizations
Post by: BonesMS on January 09, 2010, 07:43:45 AM
(((((((((((((((((((((((English))))))))))))))))))))))))))

You're not alone in this!

Bones
Title: Re: rambling realizations
Post by: English on January 09, 2010, 08:12:36 AM
Thanks Bones
Title: Re: rambling realizations
Post by: Portia on January 09, 2010, 01:11:12 PM
Hi English
I identify with almost all you've said. I'm finding the sadness does recede with ongoing acceptance. As for your own views, prejudiced or not, maybe you can accept them too, and in accepting yourself, perhaps not taking it too seriously and changing in the process. I find I have to be very serious to be hypercritical, and being that serious is such an effort...I can't keep it up for long.

We don't have to be perfect or even near-perfect. Nobody else is. Living is taking actions, risks, making mistakes. And we aren't responsible for how our NMs choose to live their lives.

((((((English))))))
Title: Re: rambling realizations
Post by: English on January 10, 2010, 04:34:58 AM
Portia
When I say prejudiced, I don't mean racially.  I mean judging people on how they look, what they say, and what they do.  I'm channeling my NM.  Part of me judges them.  Part of me says whoa, you don't know anything about them.  And so what if they don't have an education, so what if they are dressed a certain way.  In my head I put them down then stop myself.  What's funny is NM prides herself as being nonjudgemental and free of prejudice.  So where did I get all these ideas?  Let me guess...hmmm...

You're right though. I am a VERY serious person and I hate it.  I rarely laugh.  God, how I wish I laughed more. Not even once a day.  I can go a week or more.  Anybody have any ideas on how to become less serious. 

Title: Re: rambling realizations
Post by: nolongeraslave on January 10, 2010, 11:34:06 AM
Story of my life, especially the part of "having two brains"..or more like "the old me" (NM's puppet) and the "new me"(free at last) arguing!

You can tell yourself that you will  change, but NM's thoughts and words are so ingrained. There were times when I fooled myself into thinking, "No, this is really my opinion" when it was NM's. I didn't want to deal with the fact that NM was controlling me.

Anyone else experience that? 
Title: Re: rambling realizations
Post by: CB123 on January 10, 2010, 02:02:41 PM
English and NoLonger,

I think it helps a lot when you distinguish between who you are and what is just a random voice in your head.  We think that there is something wrong with us because odd, random stuff comes into our minds.

I am who remains AFTER I sift through the garbage that comes in and out, and choose what I want to keep.  I think this is part of refusing to continue being victimized.  The fact is whatever we have spoken to us will keep going round and round.  (have you ever had an obnoxious song repeat itself over and over and over in your head? That doesnt mean that you wrote the song, or that you even LIKE it!) 

I am careful about what I put in my brain ON PURPOSE....like, for me, I just plain dont ever watch slasher movies.  Why do I want that in my head competing with space????  I dont listen to music lyrics that degrade women or glorify drugs.  (I wont play it in my kitchens at work either). 

But some things you cant help--like your N person's screwy version of life.  So, you have to constantly say:  that's not me.  That's her.  She views people that way, but I dont.  I am "listening" to that thought, I am not generating it. 

Keep putting the thought OUTSIDE of who you are.  But dont fight the thought because then it gets clingy.  Just look at it like an interesting specimen, a foreign object:  Hmmmm.  That's the way judgmental people think.  But I think differently.  I think its like creating internal boundaries.

CB
Title: Re: rambling realizations
Post by: Portia on January 10, 2010, 02:53:29 PM
English,
I think it's necessary and natural to judge people on appearance, words, actions. How else do we start navigating life? Many people we meet will conform to some stereotype, so it works to judge books by covers, especially if those people are quickly passing through our lives. Yes, note the person on the sidewalk who looks aggressively dressed and whose actions are suspicious, it might save your life.  On the other hand, true, covers do not make a person so if you're getting to know them, look beyond, but it's all a balance I guess. I have a problem of not expecting people in posiitons of some 'authority' or 'satus' to do dumb things (even though the evidence keeps mounting up to the contrary). Why am i so dumb there??!

CB: I like -  I am "listening" to that thought, I am not generating it.  -
sometimes you can hear other people doing it too, they're speaking, but the words are not 'theirs': you can hear the parent talking.
Title: Re: rambling realizations
Post by: English on January 24, 2010, 07:37:15 AM
I thought I had dodged a bullet when NM called and asked if I wanted to go with her and her H to my cousins baby shower 3 hours away.  I said no, "I wanted to take my own car because I wanted to do some shopping while I was there."  I didn't plan on doing shopping.  She said ok.  Yesterday she called and said that H wasn't going. Can she go with me?  I said that I have to also do some shopping.  She said what kind.  I said clothes.  "Oh, I'd love to do that." she replied.  I couldn't figure out how to get out of taking her so I told her yes.

She can't drive herself for some reason. She says she can't drive for over 30 minutes.  I have yet to figure out why she can't drive so far.  She can sit that far.  I think she just likes to be chauffered around everywhere. 

I felt that I had no choice.  She definitely needs to be at my cousins baby shower.  It's her first baby and NM thinks of herself as her grandmother.  She's really her aunt, but old enough to be a grandmother.  So I'm stuck.

Anyone have any suggestions about ground rules I should require if she's gonna come with me? 

1. "Mom, Im not going to talk about myself"
2.  I'm not going to talk about my son, or at least not why he won't talk to her.
3.  I won't listen to you putting people down, especially my uncle.

I'm going to get an audiobook by someone she likes and we'll listen to it on the way.  I don't want to be stuck talking to her.

WHY DOESN'T MY 'NO' BUTTON WORK? ALL I SAY TO HER IS 'YES'.  AGGHHHHH!!!!!! :?:
Title: Re: rambling realizations
Post by: English on January 24, 2010, 10:06:05 AM
I was surfing and went to a site with the DSM IV-TR and read through the personality disorders.  I started looking at npd.  Yeah, of course she fits all the criteria.  Then I looked at avoidant pd.  I fit it to a T.  It even mentioned truculance (which I had to lookl up :D- it means basically silent in social situations and conversations.)  It explains so much about me and the way I handle people and life.  I'm very reserved and meek.  If I'm in a group of two or more people.  I don't speak unless spoken to, and then I get very, very self-conscious.  I follow conversations, but I NEVER have anything to say.  I want to be around people, but I am afraid of shame and embarrassment.  I don't feel like I have social skills.  Even on this board, people write and write and write.  I don't want to 'burden' people so don't say much, but I WANT to.  I have one friend, and that took years before we became friends.  I still don't tell her much about me though.  I'm married and my H is very supportive, but I don't even trust him with my deepest thoughts. 
Or even with my less deep thoughts.

I mean I DON'T trust ANYBODY.  I hate that.  I don't know how to get passed it.  I'm always afraid of my inferiority showing.  The fear of shame is tremendous.

I wonder how my life would have gone had I not had NM or schizoid (or whatever is wrong with) F.  Would I be that great linguisitics professor and researcher, would I have been able to research apes and/or dolphins?  My whole life I've wanted to learn languages and travel.  Iin high school I studied 3 langauges, but when I had to start talking extemporaneously in French in class, I quit French--my favorite language of all.

If I could do it, I'd study all the languages I could, but the fear is more than too great.  Which leaves me with a life of misery, a llfe wished for, longed for, but unobtainable.  (I'm about to turn 50, so I'm running out of time to make changes.)

This APD also explains why I give in to NM.  I'm afraid to say no.  Although in some ways I can be firm with her.  Like I told her I do NOT WANT a birthday PARTY, just her and my H to come over and have cake--not tons of relatives and her friends coming.  We'll see what she does, she said she would do as I wished--I don't trust her. 

I am a teacher and do just fine with the students.  It's when I have to interact with adults.  Especially the principals when I get tounge-tied.  But I MUST answer them, so my heart races, my mind whirls, I say all I can and need to say, but it makes me panic.  I avoid these situations as much as possible.  I almost always email the principal. That way I can form my ideas and words and read over them, like I'm doing here. Even then I am still nervous.  I hate my fear,  I have SO much of it. 
Title: Re: rambling realizations
Post by: Hopalong on January 24, 2010, 10:35:04 AM
Hi English,

This may sound incredibly lame, corny, unmodern.
But it works for truculence and fear of adults.

Toastmasters.

You sweat bullets the first few times. They are kind and specific. You start to get it.

It can really change people who are afraid to speak.

hugs,
Hops
Title: Re: rambling realizations
Post by: English on January 24, 2010, 11:44:47 AM
Hops
It doesn't sound lame.  It's a good idea. I don't know that I could go through with that though.  The fear is tremendous.  I am afraid when I answer the phone.  i am afraid when I go to the store. (But I'm not agoraphobic) I'm afraid when I go to the doctor.  I'm afraid when I go to work.  I'm afraid while I'm working that the principal will walk in.  It's like NM explained to me there is a proper way to do everything.  Everyone but me knows the correct way.  OK she only sometimes said that, but she showed it to me all the time. 

NM never taught me the right way to do things.  When I asked her to teach me to dance, she showed me the box step.  How many 8th graders in 1974 went to a school dance and did the Box Step?  I saw on TV all kinds of dances; she didn't teach me any of them.  I didn't learn until well into my adulthood that slow dancing was very basic and simple.  I skipped my senior prom because I didn't kknow how to dance.

I quit having friends in my late childhood-10 years old or so.  At puberty I had no friends because-- I don't know why.  It's been 40 years and I'm just now learning why I don't have friends.  I don't know how to get them or maintain them.  That's why I didn't ask any friends how to dance, how to put on make-up, or any other teenage stuff.

I grew up thinking that EVERYONE else know the correct way to do things and I did not.  I do not.  Unless it's something that I have done a lot, I don't do it because I don't know the "proper way."  Intellectually I kind of know that there is no correct way; emotionally I'm sure there is a correct way to de everything. 

I also learned never to ask for help.  I'm supposed to never need help.  I'm supposed to know everything already and because I don't, I am worthless.

That's my point I think.  I am worthless and incompetant. I do not trust the world.

Sorry about the rambling.
Title: Re: rambling realizations
Post by: HeartofPilgrimage on January 24, 2010, 07:55:26 PM
English, I am a fan of the Chronicles of Narnia ... and the one thing that I thought of when reading your post is, "Nobody is ever told 'what might have been.'" In some ways it stinks, but it forces us to live with what is, to learn to be our best inside what is.

About your mom ... I was going to say just to do the smile and nod thing with her (if possible) ... but it sounds like you do a lot of that and it's not working. By the "smile and nod thing" I mean just say uh huh or hmmmm, and be noncommittal. My mom seems to understand not feeling well, so I often can get off the hook by claiming to not feel well. Which is true, my feelings are not feeling well when she's in a mood! But she takes it as I am sick, and so sometimes I can get a reprieve ... in situations where I am stuck in a confined space with her.

Darn, I wish I could find something more helpful. I'm sure at least one or two people reading this will be able to help.
Title: Re: rambling realizations
Post by: English on January 25, 2010, 03:29:19 AM
Thanks Heart
Feeling sick is a good idea, of course she'd tell everyone at the shower that I don't feel well, but that's Ok.  I'm wondering how she'll make the shower about herself.  She made my aunt's wedding reception about her.
Title: Re: rambling realizations
Post by: BonesMS on January 25, 2010, 07:41:54 AM
Thanks Heart
Feeling sick is a good idea, of course she'd tell everyone at the shower that I don't feel well, but that's Ok.  I'm wondering how she'll make the shower about herself.  She made my aunt's wedding reception about her.

Hi, (((((((((((((((((((English)))))))))))))))))))))))))))))

I can relate to your feelings about APD, along with the feelings of shame, incompetency, worthlessness, etc.  That fits my own childhood to a T!  Combine that with the possibility of Asperger's and it gets REALLY complicated!!!!!

About the car situation, this is what worked for me as I got fed up with being treated like the family slave, I gave the N's in the family specific ground rules such as (1) NO SMOKING IN MY CAR, (2) NO back seat driving, even if you are sitting in the "front" seat (aka passenger seat), (3) NO abusing me physically or verbally, (I have to think what other ground rules were specifically tailored to these N-IDIOTS), and if they persisted in their bullsh*t, I would pull over and tell them:  "My car, my rules.  You don't like the rules?  Get out and walk!"  I was surprised how well that worked for me!  I'm sure they b*tched like crazy to the other N-relatives about how I should be locked up in an insane asylum.  By this point, I no longer cared because I was SICK AND TIRED of being the NFamily's punching bag!

Bones
Title: Re: rambling realizations
Post by: English on January 25, 2010, 07:51:03 AM
Thanks for your support Bones. ((((((Bones))))))  It's nice to know I'm not the only one.  That definitely would make it tougher with Asperger's. 
As my students sometimes say, "THAT"S NOT FAIR!!!!"  If only the world would hear all our pleas of how things aren't fair.  Wouldn't that be nice if life was fair for everyone.  Hmmm...NM's would bring punishment to themselves.  We would all be happy and healthy and loved and... that's alll I need: happy, healthy, loved.
Title: Re: rambling realizations
Post by: BonesMS on January 25, 2010, 08:40:41 AM
Thanks for your support Bones. ((((((Bones))))))  It's nice to know I'm not the only one.  That definitely would make it tougher with Asperger's. 
As my students sometimes say, "THAT"S NOT FAIR!!!!"  If only the world would hear all our pleas of how things aren't fair.  Wouldn't that be nice if life was fair for everyone.  Hmmm...NM's would bring punishment to themselves.  We would all be happy and healthy and loved and... that's alll I need: happy, healthy, loved.

I agree.  It would be nice, especially when N's get what they deserve!

Bones
Title: Re: rambling realizations
Post by: swimmer on January 25, 2010, 07:23:58 PM
Hi English-  I don't think you are rambling, it's quite the contrary actually.  I don't articulate some situations/memories which might help me to heal by getting validated.  I'm so exhausted over familial narcissism....  Anyways, I think it's so admirable you articulate the feelings you have.  So pat yourself on the back:)....  you've made me realize it is important to share thoughts and feelings with people who understand to get through the haze of what's happened. 

On a side note, a good 12 step motto to consider "Fake it till you make it".   This gives me the confidence to get through situations I feel inadequate.  The practice of "pretending" I'm just like other people helps me get through the hard times, to keep in the game of life.... So I don't get forgotten on account of being silent.  It's not always easy when feeling worthless, but sometimes the person I'm talking to gets engaged in what I'm faking (making small talk about the weather) and that plants a mustard seed of hope.

swimmer
Title: Re: rambling realizations
Post by: English on January 26, 2010, 04:06:39 AM
Thanks Swimmer.  Hmmmm...Fake it til you make it.  Could you give me examples of that?  This sounds really interesting.
Title: Re: rambling realizations
Post by: swimmer on January 27, 2010, 07:37:52 PM
English-  so basically the way I take fake it till you make is.... Even though I don't feel confident, I go through the motions of a person with confidence.  If I'm taking a class and feel like I'm going to ask a dumb question, I go ahead and ask it..... even though it doesn't feel comfortable.  Many times I find other people might have the same question.  I don't have his insecurity about asking questions hardly now, but I did years ago.  My family always told me I wasn't smart, so I felt stupid for asking questions. 

Basically we all have a right to engage in life, so even if I don't feel like I deserve to breathe and live.... I try to act as if, then a positive life affirming experience follows.  Like affirmations.... I deserve to raise my hand and learn in this class, I paid for it and I deserve to learn.

Swimmer
Title: Re: rambling realizations
Post by: HeartofPilgrimage on January 27, 2010, 07:57:41 PM
Swimmer, it's funny you should say that ... when I first started back to school, I dressed up every day like a professional although I still felt like a full-time-stay-at-home mom inside. And, I always wore a little medallion with my undergraduate school's crest on it, which I would finger when I felt inadequate, because I had a great undergraduate education. Now, dressing up doesn't seem nearly as important because now I feel much more like a "real" professional.
Title: Re: rambling realizations
Post by: swimmer on January 27, 2010, 08:31:54 PM
Heart of Pilgrimmage- What a profound impact we can make on ourselves without even having to talk, dressing up:).  How resourceful of you, thx for sharing:)

swimmer
Title: Re: rambling realizations
Post by: English on March 16, 2010, 09:28:06 AM
Memories:
When I was very young, I would say, "Name Jane" to NM.  She thought this was so cute.  I'm suspicious that it was my reaction to her ignoring me or talking about me in front of me.  I wonder this because I REMEMBER saying when I was somewhat older that "I'm a real person." 

Other memories:  not once but twice NP's raked up our toys and threw them out because we did not keep our rooms clean.  Of course NM did not bother teaching us HOW to keep a room clean, nor did she help clean; she just threw out the toys.  But she also thought cleaning was beneath her because she grew up with a maid.  She claimed she didn't know how to clean because she wasn't taught.  She believes that DH is OCD because our house is always clean and organized.  We share in the cleaning.

I was told what instrument I would play in band.  I was told which college I would go to.  I wasn't given choices.  So now I worry about what the correct choice is.  I had to fight to get a $10/month clothing allowance.  I also had to use that for ANYTHING else I wanted.  I was not allowed to get a job in high school.  NF believed that since I stopped growing at 12, that I didn't need new clothes until the ones I had wore out.  I wish they had helped me with career choices.  Telling me how to achieve my career goals.  Since I never ask for help and am afraid of people, I went to college but took the wrong courses for what I wanted to be.  At one point I wanted to change my major, but NF wouldn't let me.  I've gone through life accepting that I have no choices in life.  So now I have a tough time making decisions. 

So...I'm not a real person.  I'm just an extension of NP's.  When i have success, it's their success.  When I have failure, it's because I'm an idiot.  Sorry, I seem to be wallowing in self-pity. 
Title: Re: rambling realizations
Post by: gratitude28 on March 18, 2010, 09:44:57 PM
English,
All of those rambling realizations fit into my situation too!!
NM also cries to get attention, but never in the way you cry if you love something. Her brother died this year and she went to get a dress for the funeral and then said, "I found some great jeans, too. I really needed to go shopping." That's some empathy!!!!!
I am also weird and annoying because I do not share their likes in many things. I get to hear about it over and over and over.
I love swimmer's "fake it 'til you make it." So true! That helped me get through a lot!
Also - as for the "negative tapes" - it just takes practice to overcome them. I used to always think rotten thoughts about people. I had to stop EVERY TIME I did and ask myself WHY I thought that. Usually it was just a repeat of what I had hear. I no longer have those thoughts. I have replaced them with kind words. There is always something nice to see in a person... her hair, smile, shirt...
Give yourself time! You are doing great!
Love, Beth
Title: Re: rambling realizations
Post by: Logy on March 18, 2010, 10:51:06 PM
Portia,

Great comment:   "We don't have to be perfect or even near-perfect. Nobody else is. Living is taking actions, risks, making mistakes. And we aren't responsible for how our NMs choose to live their lives."

I admire those who embrace their imperfection!  My NM's favorite comment to me (as a child), to my nephews, to my daughter, is "oh, you did that PERFECTLY!"  I hate the word perfect.

Swimmer, "fake it til you make it" has been my lifetime motto.  I'm trying to analyze this statement and have a few thoughts.  Fake it - my life story.  Brought me alot of pain by faking it.  After all, that's what my FOO was all about.  But I never was able to "make it" until I learned to STOP faking it.  (By making it, I mean feeling like I am a whole person with value.)

Another rambling realization! :)
Title: Re: rambling realizations
Post by: English on March 21, 2010, 06:00:45 AM
I don't know why I keep in contact with NM!  Ugh!  I let her take me to see Alice in Wonderland 3D yesterday.  I was tense during the entire movie.
At one point she asked me if I  get her family's emails.  i said no.  i said I don't want them.  She said she was disappointed because she wrote a great email to the family.  Weird.  She uses me as her NS, and I provide it.  Why oh why do I do this?  I feel sorry for her because she needs her NS to feel good about herself.  She bribes me all the time.  I bought this for you; when can you come get it?  I just can't do this anymore.  Checking with you all:  I don't have to tell her why I don't want to go to her house, or why I don't want her to come to my house, Right?  I just say I can't.  This reminds me of my life always having to explain why I don't want to do something.  I go blank with no good reason, so i say I will do whatever it is. 

I'm afraid of her.  Both my brother and I are her GC"s, but he lives a thousand plus miles away and barely has to deal with her.  Plus he is a psychologist and can keep her in her place.  I'm afraid if I do not bend to her wishes that I will become a scapegoat.  I live in a small town and am afraid of what she might do.  I can't move at this point either... I am so damaged by her.  My life is difficult even with her not iin it.  I am afraid of everyone and avoid any conflict.  I trust no one.

For my birthday my NF (or whatever is wrong with hime-when i was younger i diagnosed him as schizoid PD but I haven't seen him in years.) sent me a disc of childhood photos; I can't look at it.  My memories of childhood with my NP's are all bad.  I have no good memories of growing up.  Just neglect, gaslighting, yelling, screaming, plates and glasses being thrown I don't remember any loving from NM.  I'm so afraid of NF that any time I picture him I cringe.  When his mother passes, I will not go to her funeral because he will be there.  Even now when there is a white car in front of me and I see a silhouette (sp?) of a man, I get uncomfortable.  (He always drove a white car.)  Thanks for listening, just needed to talk.  I'm just trying to process so much.  i'm slowly learning, but I am learning.
Title: Re: rambling realizations
Post by: Hopalong on March 21, 2010, 12:02:45 PM
((((English))))

You need some 3-D amazons.

Do you have a women's support group, a therapy group, an ACOA group (I always think this is a helpful program for children of N's even if the N wasn't alcoholic, because it's a bunch of people supporting each other through healing the aftereffects of growing up with a huge, uncontrollable, thought-twisting mental disorder in the home...)?[Edit: (misspelled "thought") ... and my understanding is that a person can do that honestly at an ACOA group. I believe you can just say, I'm here because I'm trying to heal from the effects of an extreme narcissist parent and I believe they're a lot like the effects of alcoholism. I believe you'd be made completely welcome. If anybody who's done ACOA knows otherwise, hope they'll say.]

I think, though I can't know for sure, but I think, that if you spent regular time, every week, maybe twice a week, in a GROUP setting of people who are healing from primal damage and really supporting each other in that effort...it would give you new strength to deal with these fears.

I really believe it would.

I think there's something in a GROUP process (maybe the more we shy away from the idea of "group work" the more we actually need and would benefit from it) -- that does something NO individual therapy, or isolated thing (even posting here), can do for building a person's strength and self-esteem.

love,
Hops
Title: Re: rambling realizations
Post by: Gaining Strength on March 21, 2010, 12:59:12 PM
I relate to your March 16th entry.  I want to reply but I want to think about it first.

One thing that i do as an adult that I was not permitted to do as a child is that I simply do not answer.  I change the subject or turn away.  My father used to do this when he was asked questions.  He acted "above" it all.  My brothers do this as well so I picked up on their tricks and applied them back.  It has worked especially well with my mother.
Title: Re: rambling realizations
Post by: HeartofPilgrimage on March 21, 2010, 09:45:26 PM
Very interesting, English, that you went with your mother to Alice in Wonderland. I was hearing about Lewis Carroll's comment on the story lately ... he said it was about "malice." I have also heard people call dealing with narcissists as "going back down the rabbit hole" (as in Alice in Wonderland) or "going back to Oz" (as in the Wizard of Oz). I think that this is why the first Disney Alice in Wonderland was a total box-office flop ... because they tried to make a cutesy Disney film out of a story about ... malice.

In my opinion, you will just have to take this detaching from your mother thing one step at a time ... one foot in front of the other. One of the things we have all realized her on this board is that we can't MAKE the Ns in our lives stop trying to squelch our voices. We have to instead ... I guess maybe "stop caring about what they do" so much. In some way we have to stop letting everything they do affect us. And it sounds like your practical situation, as well as your emotional situation, requires that that be a step-by-step process. One foot in front of the other.

Michael Mahoney, whose work I admire greatly, wrote a book called Human Change Processes. He explains that, as we unpeel "layers of the onion" (as someone else has recently written here), we eventually get down to "core ordering processes" --- the ways we have of making meaning in our lives and in this world. Often these core ordering processes are what are making us so miserable --- we organize our world around what our parents' values are/were, what they will say about us (or what they would say about us if they were still alive), around jumping through hoops to make an un-pleasable person happy. However, changing these core ordering processes feels like death to self ... facing changing these things is such a painful process THAT IT IS NECESSARILY SLOW. THere is a WISDOM in the slowness of the process of change. So I hope that you will give yourself room to breathe, room to SLOWLY make the changes you want to make, room to move.

The people that want you to be a healthy, happy, whole person --- that includes us on the board and I expect people in your 3D life as well --- don't demand quick and 180 degree changes ... it's OK to change at your own pace. What's important is that you now see soooo clearly what is making you unhappy, and that clarity will impel you to change, there is no question that the change is going to happen.

Maybe you're wondering why I'm focusing on inner change when you feel so stuck in your practical, material, day-to-day circumstances of living in a small town where your mother has some power (maybe a lot of power) to make life difficult for you. I think that as the inner work is done, it will become easier to tolerate the monkey-wrenches she can throw into your day-to-day life, in order to be free of her constant abuse. You will become more resilient and able to tolerate the stress of whatever she is able to do ... and truthfully, I suspect that you will find that other people in your community ALREADY KNOW HER for what she is.