Voicelessness and Emotional Survival Message Board
Voicelessness and Emotional Survival => Voicelessness and Emotional Survival Message Board => Topic started by: Ami on January 15, 2010, 03:30:12 PM
-
I don't know how much lower can go than incest with your own Mother but I realize that is where I have been. it is the bottom I could never touch.
When I had the repressed memory of my M masturbating in front of me--laughing at me--my child's brain said "I want to die.I want to die"
I think I lost my life force then. I think my body wanted to die and the part that keeps you alive warred with it so I am still here but I gave up at a very deep level.
When your own mother does this to you--you don't think you deserve to live ,breathe , eat etc. You think you sould be thrown away. I have felt I should be thrown away all my life. That is why I got in and stayed in an abusive marriage.
I can't believe the word--incest, incest.
I can't believe it is me.
-
I am embarrassed to write this. I hate to write this but it is what happened.
-
I am embarrassed to write this. I hate to write this but it is what happened.
((((((((((((((((((Ami))))))))))))))))))))))))
The NWomb-Donors are just so TWISTED and EVIL!!!!
I have reason to suspect that what the NWomb-Donor did to me AND my NGCB was a form of incest, even if it was covert. It was still sexual abuse!
Bones
-
Thanks (((((Bonesie)))))
I thought you would understand!!! x o x o Ami
-
"you don't think you deserve to live ,breathe , eat etc. You think you sould be thrown away"
This I know all too well. ((((AMI))))
The pain hurts, just hurts, right? I wish I could be there to just be with you as you feel, re-experience what happened to you that was never supposed to happen to any precious child.
I felt anger at you mom for her behavior, I felt outrage, as I read the above of the violation of your dignity and value system, belief system, the long term damage that you suffered because of her behavior.
I am sorry, I wish I could be there to see just how precious you were and still are so that you can see how precious you were and still are.
-
"you don't think you deserve to live ,breathe , eat etc. You think you sould be thrown away"
This I know all too well. ((((AMI))))
The pain hurts, just hurts, right? I wish I could be there to just be with you as you feel, re-experience what happened to you that was never supposed to happen to any precious child.
I felt anger at you mom for her behavior, I felt outrage, as I read the above of the violation of your dignity and value system, belief system, the long term damage that you suffered because of her behavior.
I am sorry, I wish I could be there to see just how precious you were and still are so that you can see how precious you were and still are.
I love you (((Lise))).
I wanted to come back and erase the thread cuz I didn't want to be up there with incest next to my name like a big ,ugly black blob that people would say "Ick" and run away.
I still want to erase it but I must leave it cuz it is me along with all the other parts. Many parts are good. I can see that, too,after I face the bad head on.I have parts of myself that I like.
I think I have come to the bottom of my denial.I hope so :lol:. Thank you for being my true friend ,Lise, from the beginning until now. x o x o Ami
-
I saw from my singing lessons that I hold my body tight--armored--not to get hurt--not to be violated in any way. I hold myself against other's criticisms, anger , dislike.
I hold myself tight so no one can penetrate and catch me unarmed.
-
I am sorry Ami. You should have not ever had to live that way. Your voice is setting you free. You did nothing and have nothing to be embarrassed about. You were violated by the person that should have protected you.
This was her secret....it's not yours! She is very, very, very, sick Ami. You are not.
She disgust me.
Love
Deb
-
I saw from my singing lessons that I hold my body tight--armored--not to get hurt--not to be violated in any way. I hold myself against other's criticisms, anger , dislike.
I hold myself tight so no one can penetrate and catch me unarmed.
As I was sitting in Adoration today I noticed how I hold my body too, it was tight as if tight is the only normal way for me to be, so afraid and tight was my body, as I sat there in a most safe and sacred place that it seemed God illuminated for me what the tightness was about -- rage.
Buried rage at the injustice of what happened that was not supposed to have happened to us when we were just seeking love, when it was OK to just be seeking love, but instead your mom and my mom violated us and then made us feel ashamed for our natural feelings of rage and outrage and anger at their very hurtful behavior towards us. They pointed the finger back at us, as if to say that WE were the WRONG ones, but THEY were.
The tightness that I carry comes from anxiety of having rage, a very unsafe emotion for me to carry in my body as my rage or hurt or anger at my mom's behavior was NOT OK, I was bad for even having negative feelings towards her.
Does this make sense? I write this as my experience on YOUR thread to share hopefully that you are not alone, and that you are not going through your memories alone, in pain, as we sometimes have to. I know you know this.
Love you.
-
I saw from my singing lessons that I hold my body tight--armored--not to get hurt--not to be violated in any way. I hold myself against other's criticisms, anger , dislike.
I hold myself tight so no one can penetrate and catch me unarmed.
As I was sitting in Adoration today I noticed how I hold my body too, it was tight as if tight is the only normal way for me to be, so afraid and tight was my body, as I sat there in a most safe and sacred place that it seemed God illuminated for me what the tightness was about -- rage.
Buried rage at the injustice of what happened that was not supposed to have happened to us when we were just seeking love, when it was OK to just be seeking love, but instead your mom and my mom violated us and then made us feel ashamed for our natural feelings of rage and outrage and anger at their very hurtful behavior towards us. They pointed the finger back at us, as if to say that WE were the WRONG ones, but THEY were.
The tightness that I carry comes from anxiety of having rage, a very unsafe emotion for me to carry in my body as my rage or hurt or anger at my mom's behavior was NOT OK, I was bad for even having negative feelings towards her.
Does this make sense? I write this as my experience on YOUR thread to share hopefully that you are not alone, and that you are not going through your memories alone, in pain, as we sometimes have to. I know you know this.
Love you.
From the first day you came on the Board you have been bonded with me. It is a source of strength for me. Thank you and I love you! x o x Ami
-
Ames,
For me, saying it out loud, writing it down, putting it somewhere other than in my mind, was a huge step forward. As hurtful, painful, difficult as it is to deal with, you can start to turn it into something tangible, something with a start point and a finish point, so it doesn't keep consuming you from the inside out.
You've been so incredibly brave to put this thread up, to write plainly about what happened, to air something that you've had to keep inside you for so many years. I'm so glad you didn't delete it. Other people will draw strength from what you've written, Ami, and will be here to support you and get you through the tough times.
Love you,
Twoapenny xxx
-
Ames,
For me, saying it out loud, writing it down, putting it somewhere other than in my mind, was a huge step forward. As hurtful, painful, difficult as it is to deal with, you can start to turn it into something tangible, something with a start point and a finish point, so it doesn't keep consuming you from the inside out.
You've been so incredibly brave to put this thread up, to write plainly about what happened, to air something that you've had to keep inside you for so many years. I'm so glad you didn't delete it. Other people will draw strength from what you've written, Ami, and will be here to support you and get you through the tough times.
Love you,
Twoapenny xxx
Thank you(((Twoapenny))
I feel better . I want to live for the first time in along time. I feel more of a part of the human race. I told my deepest darkest secret and it is OK.
The real problem was the denial. I could not FEEL the truth. I knew it in the head but not the heart so I could not break through the numbness of denial.
I feel more real. Thanks so much for your sweet and supportive words! x o x o Ami
-
I am sorry Ami. You should have not ever had to live that way. Your voice is setting you free. You did nothing and have nothing to be embarrassed about. You were violated by the person that should have protected you.
This was her secret....it's not yours! She is very, very, very, sick Ami. You are not.
She disgust me.
Love
Deb
Thank you (((Deb))). I appreciate your post so very much. x o x o Ami
-
Ami: :( :( :( :( :(
I agree with everyone here! Twoapenny said you are "brave." You are. But you are not incest and incest is not you. This horrific event(s) perpetuated by your NM inflicted tremendous pain and irreversible damage, however, there are heroes that come from this sort of wreckage and you are one of them. So don't be afraid to tell your story and for pete sake, don't feel embarrassed. I think you are helping lives here because of your survival and tenacity for life and to share your story with others. We appreciate you!! Your NM should feel embarrassed and "want to die" instead of your inner child.
I'm so incredibly sorry you have to even type those words. I wish I could take them away from you forever so you wouldn't have to look at them any more!
Love & hugs (((((()))))))))
Bear
-
Ami: :( :( :( :( :(
I agree with everyone here! Twoapenny said you are "brave." You are. But you are not incest and incest is not you. This horrific event(s) perpetuated by your NM inflicted tremendous pain and irreversible damage, however, there are heroes that come from this sort of wreckage and you are one of them. So don't be afraid to tell your story and for pete sake, don't feel embarrassed. I think you are helping lives here because of your survival and tenacity for life and to share your story with others. We appreciate you!! Your NM should feel embarrassed and "want to die" instead of your inner child.
I'm so incredibly sorry you have to even type those words. I wish I could take them away from you forever so you wouldn't have to look at them any more!
Love & hugs (((((()))))))))
Bear
Love you (((Bear)))
I can feel what you are saying and I will put it in my heart! x o x o Ami
-
Thanks (((((Bonesie)))))
I thought you would understand!!! x o x o Ami
(((((((((((((((Ami)))))))))))))))))
Bones
-
When I want strength I will think of you, Bones, and how much you went through and that you are still decent! x o xo Ami
-
When I want strength I will think of you, Bones, and how much you went through and that you are still decent! x o xo Ami
Thanks, (((((((((((((Ami))))))))))))))))))
Bones
-
Thank you (((Dr G)) and (((Board Friends))))
Maybe I can finally let this go!I love you. x o x o Ami
-
I'm so proud of you Ami for having the courage to make this topic. You're not any of the lies that your NM brainwashed you to believe.
Like others, I felt angry at how a mother could masturbate in front of her child. You weren't the one who was sick. It was HER.
-
Hi Ami.
How are you? Just checking in :D
BTW, not to stir your pot but I'm just curious. You mention "repressed memory." How does that work? Did this come out in therapy or did you always remember it but not talk about it due to the magnitude of the pain?
I guess I'm just not the privy to how repression works and how it comes forth for you to realize the memory as the event actually happened.
You don't have to answer if you don't feel up to it. But if there is anyone else with the experience or info, maybe they can relay....
I hope you are having a good day Ami....((((hugs)))
Bear
-
((((NLAS))) Thank you
Dear (((Bear))
It was the totally strangest thing. I had a friend and we decided we would try to be Enlightened Witnesses to each other( Alice Milers concept of a person who lets you tell your truth)
He had sexual abuse "worse" than I did and so was not blown away by deep hurts and pain
One day I was telling him how grossed out I always was by my M. He said 'Describe how you feel"
I said ,"She is gross, gross, gross" . He said "Go with that feeling"
All of a sudden a movie played in my mind . I saw myself as a little girl. I knew what I was thinking. I saw my M in technicolor--down to every detail of her hair, clothes , expression, the room .
I saw every nuance of her face which was mocking me, sneering at me and trying to shock and humiliate me.
I knew my childs thoughts were "I want to die. I want to die"
I was terrified.
I knew it was wrong and awful.
I don't think i could talk or if so not big concepts but that was what I was thinking.
I NEVER knew that happened to me BEFORE that memory came out.
Ami
PS Even when I write about it now, I still am in denial about it cuz I feel numb and removed from it
-
I read that repressed memories go in the "amygdala" or store itself in some part of the brain, until it's ready to be remembered.
-
It is the weirdest thing ,NLAS. I had NO conscious recollection of it at ALL ! It was one of the strangest things that has ever happened to me to remember it. x o x Ami
-
Hi Ami,
I remember you mentioning this before (maybe in a private message) and I can really relate. There is something I never shared with anybody and ironically once a spiritual healer 'got it' and talked to me about it, although she 'saw' it and I didn't really confirmed it.
When I was 3, I was crying one day. (God, how do I write this?). So she lifted me up, put me on top of a table and put her head between my legs (sorry that's all I can write). I remember having stopped the crying and as she was asking me if it felt good, I remember feeling soothed (how sick is this) and answering 'yes, it feels better'.
This is the first time I am writing this, not just here and publicly, but the first ever time I am voicing it as it happened (and admitting it to myself)
Sorry for the shock everyone.
P.
-
Sweet One
I am so glad you said this. It will free you!I am here by PM or even phone if you need me. Sweetheart, I understand HOW dirty and horrible you feel. I did not take a bath for 3 weeks when I found out .
You feel all these awful things,Sweetie cuz a sick person did evil on you. You did nothing wrong. Those are just words now but they need to be said cuz they do go in to your heart.
P, I may have had something worse happen to me --like you are saying. I have a shadowl outline of something similar but I can't see beyond the shadow. I love you ((((P)))). We are sisters in a horrible drama but I stand with you! x o x o Ami
PS You have blessed me by allowing me to see that my pain and life can help someone. You don't KNOW what that means to me!It is the purpose of my life now, after Scott's death--to make something beautiful out of the ashes.
-
Love you too Ami- I am numb from having written this so will comment later...
P xxx
-
Yes it is SOOOO hard to write and to tell. You know P, I am telling more people in my life and no one drops dead or hates me but that will take time to go to that next step and NOW just breathe in and breathe out, have some tea and try to connect with God or a warm friend. x o x o Ami
-
Dear P
This is for later but I am getting back that sense of self--little by little and slowly. Part of it is telling what happened--just as you are.
x o x Ami
-
You know, I don't feel guilty about it but my sensation is that something really sick happened to me.
I don't feel (or think) that I caused it, BUT I feel horrible having had that thing happen to me...
Hope this makes sense
I was talking to the woman who is liaising with the publisher for my memoir and I can't help thinking how shocked she is as she reads every chapter...this detail isn't of course in the book but still I was glad I had the chance to write it here....
Thanks Ami
P
-
The incest that you suffered was a horrible thing, I really feel for all ladies that suffered from incest.
It's is such a terribly difficult and painful thing to talk about.
Twice I dreamt I was having sex with my mother and I already find that very difficult to tell here. I don't know what those dreams meant but I was rather shocked after having these dreams. And than these were only dreams.
-
You know P, what really surprises me is that once I tell people and they ARE shocked, it then recedes to the background and they don't think of you as "bad" or "damaged".
I am just "me" now, it seems.
I think *I* painted myself as bad or different but other people didn't. I am not saying this applies to you--just sharing what I am finding. Maybe the fact it was my M made a bigger issue in my self concept . x o x o Ami
-
PS Even when I write about it now, I still am in denial about it cuz I feel numb and removed from it
Ami -- this, what you wrote above, is so part of the process of healing. At times I think that I am fully out of the denial of my wounds, free or at least somewhat over them. Then I go back to shock, numbness or feelings of dissociation, as if I had to leave my body so many times as a child just to survive that defense mechanism is rooted strongly in me from my traumas as well as with incest survivors.
-
Hi Ami,
I remember you mentioning this before (maybe in a private message) and I can really relate. There is something I never shared with anybody and ironically once a spiritual healer 'got it' and talked to me about it, although she 'saw' it and I didn't really confirmed it.
When I was 3, I was crying one day. (God, how do I write this?). So she lifted me up, put me on top of a table and put her head between my legs (sorry that's all I can write). I remember having stopped the crying and as she was asking me if it felt good, I remember feeling soothed (how sick is this) and answering 'yes, it feels better'.
This is the first time I am writing this, not just here and publicly, but the first ever time I am voicing it as it happened (and admitting it to myself)
Sorry for the shock everyone.
P.
((((((Persephone))))))) No apologies needed. Love and hugs to you.
-
Dear ((Lucky)))
Thank you for your response. I did not see it, earlier. Yes, the dreams have a reason.Perhaps ,it shows how violated you felt by her.
x o x o Ami
-
This is all too much. I have to come back and comment when I get a chance in a few hours.
I want to help somehow....
-
Dear ((Bear))
You ARE helping just by being there! x o x ami
-
Thanks Gabben,
and thanks to Ami who made it easier for me to open up and finally speak about this 'experience'.
Pxxx
-
Hi Ami,
I remember you mentioning this before (maybe in a private message) and I can really relate. There is something I never shared with anybody and ironically once a spiritual healer 'got it' and talked to me about it, although she 'saw' it and I didn't really confirmed it.
When I was 3, I was crying one day. (God, how do I write this?). So she lifted me up, put me on top of a table and put her head between my legs (sorry that's all I can write). I remember having stopped the crying and as she was asking me if it felt good, I remember feeling soothed (how sick is this) and answering 'yes, it feels better'.
This is the first time I am writing this, not just here and publicly, but the first ever time I am voicing it as it happened (and admitting it to myself)
Sorry for the shock everyone.
I'm sorry you had to endure that, and it's even more confusing for the child if your body "responds". One of the reasons why I couldn't recognize my step-father's actions as "sexual abuse" was b/c my body responded to the stimulation of touch. I was scared that people would make fun of me for it, or blame me. I felt so gross.
I did learn that this is common among sexual abuse survivors. Sex is supposed to feel good, and our bodies were responding the way how it was supposed to. It doesn't make it right though for an adult to take advantage of us.
My NM knows that I felt "stimulated", and uses this fact to minimize the abuse. She even once said "So, you were using each other?" EWWW...How could the 12 year old me want to use a 50-something man?
-
((((((P))))) Love you P. x o x Ami
-
This topic is just all to raw. I find your stories so humbling and I can not fathom the reality of your pain from this experience as a child. It literally turns me inside out!!
Persephone: Your NM is the devil. She deserves to go to hell because that is where she's from.
Ami: Your NM is the devil. She deserves to go to hell because that is where she is from.
I'm sorry for saying that. Really. I'm just beside myself.....okay, deep breath***
Ami: You mentioned to me about the repressed thoughts and how they came out: "my NM is gross, she's just gross...."
Hmmmm, I think the same way! My mom is gross. She is so gross, gross, gross. When I think of her body, I gross out. I can remember her coming to the dinner table with her shorts unbuttoned and unzipped so far as where you could see her pubic hair. She never wore underwear. Her belly would hang over her shorts because they were too tight and she would laugh hysterically because our faces would be like "what?" She used to (still does) wear "hot-shorts" the ones that let your butt cheeks hang out...well my mom has a huge butt and hers hung out about a mile. I was so embarrassed by her. I remember seeing her naked body more times than I'd like to remember but I don't recall being molested or her doing stuff....uh, that I can recall that is. Hmmm, makes me wonder why these memories gross me out in particular.
Although, she used to share her sex stories with me about her and my dad having sex in the car and how he supposedly tried to rape her one time. This was all when I was a young teen. She once told my how my father stood above her with his penis over her head and then put his foot on her shoulder so that she had to put his penis in in her mouth.....I have more ugly stores but I'll stop at that.
Is this incest????
I think you are all heroes for writing this. How brave of you all. I'm in awe of you and want justice for what your so-called "mothers" did to you. This is not the end of your stories and your life. You must move through it and come out the other side shining like stars that you were intended to be and are. Your NM's are nothing but trash and must be thrown away. Sorry again, can't help myself at this point.
May the mighty universe give you all the power to conquer.
xoxox
Bear
-
This topic is just all to raw. I find your stories so humbling and I can not fathom the reality of your pain from this experience as a child. It literally turns me inside out!!
Persephone: Your NM is the devil. She deserves to go to hell because that is where she's from.
Ami: Your NM is the devil. She deserves to go to hell because that is where she is from.
I'm sorry for saying that. Really. I'm just beside myself.....okay, deep breath***
Ami: You mentioned to me about the repressed thoughts and how they came out: "my NM is gross, she's just gross...."
Hmmmm, I think the same way! My mom is gross. She is so gross, gross, gross. When I think of her body, I gross out. I can remember her coming to the dinner table with her shorts unbuttoned and unzipped so far as where you could see her pubic hair. She never wore underwear. Her belly would hang over her shorts because they were too tight and she would laugh hysterically because our faces would be like "what?" She used to (still does) wear "hot-shorts" the ones that let your butt cheeks hang out...well my mom has a huge butt and hers hung out about a mile. I was so embarrassed by her. I remember seeing her naked body more times than I'd like to remember but I don't recall being molested or her doing stuff....uh, that I can recall that is. Hmmm, makes me wonder why these memories gross me out in particular.
Although, she used to share her sex stories with me about her and my dad having sex in the car and how he supposedly tried to rape her one time. This was all when I was a young teen. She once told my how my father stood above her with his penis over her head and then put his foot on her shoulder so that she had to put his penis in in her mouth.....I have more ugly stores but I'll stop at that.
Is this incest????
I think you are all heroes for writing this. How brave of you all. I'm in awe of you and want justice for what your so-called "mothers" did to you. This is not the end of your stories and your life. You must move through it and come out the other side shining like stars that you were intended to be and are. Your NM's are nothing but trash and must be thrown away. Sorry again, can't help myself at this point.
May the mighty universe give you all the power to conquer.
xoxox
Bear
Dear (((Bear)))
I had the covert sexual abuse you describe ,too. I hope you won't be offended but when you tell me about your M , I just die laughing. I think it is the laughter that is one step away from madness.
You know when you laugh so hard but it is a crazy laughter.
Do you know what I mean? I hope you understand.
Bear, I could throw up when I think of her underwear or any personal items of hers. I could gag.
My B ,who was living there for a while , told me he wanted to pee on her underwear or even her pillow. I am laughing hysterically again.
It must be black,black humor.
Love you, Bear. Thank you so very much for sharing. x o x Ami
-
I caught NM having sex when I was 8. She was moaning from her room and I called her and she didn't come. I went outside her room and opened the door and found her on top of a guy.
Then she was dating a basketball player and I had to see them naked all the time.
Now what I am about to write is really gross: a time that wasnt living with her, I visited, she got up naked and boiled me some chocolate milk that was probably passed its due date. She gave me the milk, stark naked, and the milk stunk. I looked at her and somehow I have associated that pungent smell, with the smell of her vagina.
She used to tell me sex details as well - once about two guys who wanted to gang-bang her and another when she taped herself having sex with her second husband because she said she wanted to show him that he wasnt taking her pleasure seriously. I bet she would have shown me the tape, should I have asked! (sorry to make fun of this).
We had a lot of sexual weird things in the family, including my father trying to kiss me and fill me up once he was drunk (I was a stranger anyway to him, this was the second time he saw me), my uncle when he was 13 and I was 4, wanting to have a 'feel' of the female anatomy with his finger.
I am sorry again to be writing these stuff so bluntly.
Ironically it's the time she shaved my head that feels more traumatic than the nudity and sexual abuse.
Gee it feels good to write these things! Thanks for letting me share.
Pxxx
-
My B ,who was living there for a while , told me he wanted to pee on her underwear or even her pillow. I am laughing hysterically again
Me too! Can't stop laughing like you said, crazy laughing..... :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol:
-
I caught NM having sex when I was 8. She was moaning from her room and I called her and she didn't come. I went outside her room and opened the door and found her on top of a guy.
Then she was dating a basketball player and I had to see them naked all the time.
Now what I am about to write is really gross: a time that wasnt living with her, I visited, she got up naked and boiled me some chocolate milk that was probably passed its due date. She gave me the milk, stark naked, and the milk stunk. I looked at her and somehow I have associated that pungent smell, with the smell of her vagina.
She used to tell me sex details as well - once about two guys who wanted to gang-bang her and another when she taped herself having sex with her second husband because she said she wanted to show him that he wasnt taking her pleasure seriously. I bet she would have shown me the tape, should I have asked! (sorry to make fun of this).
We had a lot of sexual weird things in the family, including my father trying to kiss me and fill me up once he was drunk (I was a stranger anyway to him, this was the second time he saw me), my uncle when he was 13 and I was 4, wanting to have a 'feel' of the female anatomy with his finger.
I am sorry again to be writing these stuff so bluntly.
Ironically it's the time she shaved my head that feels more traumatic than the nudity and sexual abuse.
Gee it feels good to write these things! Thanks for letting me share.
Pxxx
Whoa, Perpsephone!! Life shouldn't be hard for a child. For you, it was. I hate N's!!! Why don't they all just die?
My blood is boiling....
Bear
-
Okay, I'm back to laughing again just thinking of Ami's B peeing on NM's pillow......
:lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol:
-
Did any of your NM's present themselves as "pure and pious" on the outside? Did they judge other sexual women?
I remember writing on nevergoodenough.com how my mom and step-dad were looking at playboy. I was 9, and walked in. They said, "We're looking at playboy." They didn't feel ashamed or anything! They used to say, "We're adults. We can do whatever we want." But,still..why would you advertise looking at playboy to your 9 year old girl? I would feel embarrassed!
I remember my step-dad walking around naked in his room and not caring. I remember once he just stroked his penis looking at me. I was only 9 again. How pathetic is that a child has to tell her own parent to have some shame and put some clothes on?
There were always little red flags before things blown up into severe sexual abuse, but as a kid..The easiest thing is to look away. On the outside, my parents bragged about how they had better morals than everyone else. The minute I acted remotely sexual (which I learned from them), my NM would shame me saying "Nobody likes you! You ruined your reputation! It's all your fault!"
-
Ami & everyone posting here,
I applaud each of you for looking at & facing this stuff. It's so hard to face it. It's the road less traveled & it takes guts, courage & integrity to do it. Although it's painful, I hope we all can celebrate our inner strength which enables us to look at the truth, no matter how painful.
love to you all,
ann
-
Okay, I'm back to laughing again just thinking of Ami's B peeing on NM's pillow......
:lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol:
I was afraid to write that I was laughing cuz I thought you would get insulted BUT I see you are a girl after my own heart!
((Bear))) --You tell an NM story like NO ONE else. x o x o Amo
-
Did any of your NM's present themselves as "pure and pious" on the outside? Did they judge other sexual women?
I remember writing on nevergoodenough.com how my mom and step-dad were looking at playboy. I was 9, and walked in. They said, "We're looking at playboy." They didn't feel ashamed or anything! They used to say, "We're adults. We can do whatever we want." But,still..why would you advertise looking at playboy to your 9 year old girl? I would feel embarrassed!
I remember my step-dad walking around naked in his room and not caring. I remember once he just stroked his penis looking at me. I was only 9 again. How pathetic is that a child has to tell her own parent to have some shame and put some clothes on?
There were always little red flags before things blown up into severe sexual abuse, but as a kid..The easiest thing is to look away. On the outside, my parents bragged about how they had better morals than everyone else. The minute I acted remotely sexual (which I learned from them), my NM would shame me saying "Nobody likes you! You ruined your reputation! It's all your fault!"
You know ((((NLAS))))
The mind messing with you is the worst! It is so deeply crazy making. It is so hard to see. We lived in a house of lies, an ocean of distortions and deceptions.
It is so hard to unravel and so hard not to blame yourself. That is what they wanted --to blame the victim! x o x o Ami
-
Ami & everyone posting here,
I applaud each of you for looking at & facing this stuff. It's so hard to face it. It's the road less traveled & it takes guts, courage & integrity to do it. Although it's painful, I hope we all can celebrate our inner strength which enables us to look at the truth, no matter how painful.
love to you all,
ann
Thank you (((Ann)))
It was so hard to write those things and I am amazed, surprised and overwhelmed that so many people shared. I feel like a soul sister with everyone in a deeper way ! x o x Ami
-
I caught NM having sex when I was 8. She was moaning from her room and I called her and she didn't come. I went outside her room and opened the door and found her on top of a guy.
Then she was dating a basketball player and I had to see them naked all the time.
Now what I am about to write is really gross: a time that wasnt living with her, I visited, she got up naked and boiled me some chocolate milk that was probably passed its due date. She gave me the milk, stark naked, and the milk stunk. I looked at her and somehow I have associated that pungent smell, with the smell of her vagina.
She used to tell me sex details as well - once about two guys who wanted to gang-bang her and another when she taped herself having sex with her second husband because she said she wanted to show him that he wasnt taking her pleasure seriously. I bet she would have shown me the tape, should I have asked! (sorry to make fun of this).
We had a lot of sexual weird things in the family, including my father trying to kiss me and fill me up once he was drunk (I was a stranger anyway to him, this was the second time he saw me), my uncle when he was 13 and I was 4, wanting to have a 'feel' of the female anatomy with his finger.
I am sorry again to be writing these stuff so bluntly.
Ironically it's the time she shaved my head that feels more traumatic than the nudity and sexual abuse.
Gee it feels good to write these things! Thanks for letting me share.
Pxxx
Dear ((P)))
I am so sorry I did not see your post. Bear's description of her M made me laugh hysterically and I did not see your poignant post.
Yes , it is a wonder ANY of us are still living with THAT kind of abuse.
May you find a way to exorcise her from your mind as we have to do as D's of Serpent.
(My B made up the name Serpent for our Mother) x o x Ami
-
That's ok Ami, to be honest I am glad there weren't any intense reactions because I felt self-conscious after I had written them but didn't really wanted to delete them, since they are now out and I feel lighter and relieved.
Bear, yes, my sentiments exactly!
P xxx
-
You know, abuse just makes you feel bad and horrible --to the core. People who do not have abuse just do not GET it. Ami
-
You know, abuse just makes you feel bad and horrible --to the core. People who do not have abuse just do not GET it. Ami
That bad and horrible has a life of it's own, your words to me, Ami, recall? Words which helped me this week providing some insight into the bad feelings that we feel, because we were abused, neglected and or very mistreated as small and defenseless children.
I'm having break through left and right, silent walls of fear and protective hatred are coming down as I can see another layer of belief in my badness coming out.
Does that make sense?
-
Ami, I'd like to ask for your help, and for that matter anyone here who canl I realize this is a little out of tune with the general flow here.
You said:
I think I lost my life force then. I think my body wanted to die and the part that keeps you alive warred with it so I am still here but I gave up at a very deep level.
I have been told by others of similar expereinces. And a few years ago I also had a similar experience. I'd like to ask you some more to compare to see if these expereinces are the same, and to see if they are like others have described to me. I have called it a 'soul crash'. When it happened to me, it was very instant. Like, as soon as I realised it had happened, I just knew something had happened to me that was serious and permanent and had never happened before. It was as if some strucure that was natually part of me had always been there had collapsed. Like my spirit self had died. I still wish and long for that part to be revived.
Id appreciate if people dont say 'sorry ...... happened' (for me that sort of undoes the point of sharing). I'd like to see if your experience of what happend can throw any light on this.
Theres someone I'm in contact with now, this is a young person, and from what they describes it sounds similar.
I hope you'r ok with me asking.
-
Dear((( River))))
I am available to help in any way and welcome the opportunity. I realized I LOST my life force when I got it back. IOW, I want to live now and then I could see how I had not since I was a child. x o x o Ami
-
Thanks Ami. In that case I'm gonna ask you more, just to clarify, we could be talking about different experiences.
I understand that now you want to live whereas before you did not, thats a huge difference in itself.
Do you think that getting into, getting out of, and surviving the abusive marriage was in some way a way of touching base again with those elements and being able to restore yourself from there, because this time you were able to do something different, as the Jung quote says, 'the hidden order withing disorder'? Like, symbolically, you restored light into the dark place??
((((((thanks for sharing all this))))))
r
,,............ it is the bottom I could never touch.
............... but I gave up at a very deep level.
. I have felt I should be thrown away all my life. That is why I got in and stayed in an abusive marriage.
-
Thanks Ami. In that case I'm gonna ask you more, just to clarify, we could be talking about different experiences.
I understand that now you want to live whereas before you did not, thats a huge difference in itself.
Do you think that getting into, getting out of, and surviving the abusive marriage was in some way a way of touching base again with those elements and being able to restore yourself from there, because this time you were able to do something different, as the Jung quote says, 'the hidden order withing disorder'? Like, symbolically, you restored light into the dark place??
((((((thanks for sharing all this))))))
r
,,............ it is the bottom I could never touch.
............... but I gave up at a very deep level.
. I have felt I should be thrown away all my life. That is why I got in and stayed in an abusive marriage.
You are a girl after my own heart ((((River))). We could groove out on Carl Jung together.
Well, I am STILL in the abusive marriage.
I can't feel my feelings. I can't feel out what to do about my marriage and my life so I am waiting .
I just got back the will to live .Now, I want to connect to myself. That connection is still NOT there.I feel less numb is what I am staying but I am still numb.
When I get more real , then I will make more definite steps in my marriage and 3D life. x o x o Ami
-
......... I was thinking about this, had to get back. Before responding to your last thing you said - and I wan to- just to skip back to the original ~~~ hope thats ok,
in that scenario, your mum was blatently degrading herself, but the look in her face, and the intention inside her was to put that degredation, the shaming/ and annihilation onto you. So, as a child, you couldnt help but take that in. Because as children we are open to absorb the good intent from our adults to absorb inside us the 'get up and to message', ....as in 'go live, love, and fulful your real abilities'
An N. disowns theier own shame and projects it onto, or rather INTO the target person/s. And that is what we absorb, and have to play out, or to get out of us, or to heal. We've absorbed toxins, rather than the good internal message. So we have to detox, (and along with that, help detox the world ~ but thats another story, just sometingt I belive to be true. )
This is the priniple. When you elevate, or extract the essence, the prinicple, a whole lot of thngs connect. The same thing happened to me, but in a way you'd never recognise as the same. When an important adult in life, and I was very small, well in fact, this was a aupere, (my father privided the money, whilst my mother ..... and etc ) ............ this aupere said something humilating to me and I took it in, sexualised it. I remember the experience as clearly knowing this person's intent is to humiliate me, and I have no defence against this. So somehow my pschyche took it in and processed it by taking it to my sexuality. And it, the S+L thing in later life that brought me to my knees, and into recovery for addiction to this destructive, addictive abusive relationship. (the sex and love addiction recovery fellowships). And eventually to learn about the disorders, starting with N. ism. (via Sam Vaknin).
Theres so much to say huh? ...... look forward to get back. Must ban myself for now ! got to go do all the stuff I should have done.... eek! : )
-
Dear River
I am so happy you started this discussion. It is very important and very honest.
I hear you talking about a moment in time when you shifted . I can relate to that one moment, too. It was when my F whom I idolized and trusted told me that my M was fine.
I split in some way then. I went in to shock .
I had to think my F was on my side. I could not retain my sanity without it. He showed me that he was not and i could not stay in reality without being numb.
I was 14 and have lived in a state of shock ever since.
I think the way out is Mirroring. You are a blank to yourself. That is the biggest problem, IME.
*I* could not see myself. That is one reason people have addictions. They want to FEEL. They want to feel real. They want to connect with themselves and another person but it is as if they are walking through split pea soup. It is dense and foggy.
The Bell Jar by Slyvia Plath is my favorite book.
She could not get out from inside the bell jar.
I found a friend who mirrored me. He loved me with a pure kind of love and I started to be able to see myself.
God brought him as I believe God will direct us to healing if we will listen and follow.
I still feel numb and not in touch with my feelings BUT I am a little better, for sure. I wish I could PUSH away the numb and come running out like football players at the beginning of the game. "Here I am. I am not numb"
That is my dream--beyond all dreams. Thank you so much for your posts (((River))))) x o x o Ami
-
Yes, I feel its important too, has a lot of meaning for me.
It was this moment in time that I first remember, like a flagship moment that helped me to understand the rest.
I had to think my F was on my side. I could not retain my sanity without it. He showed me that he was not and i could not stay in reality without being numb.
I was 14 and have lived in a state of shock ever since.
Yes. This is about betrayal. Its about a lot of things, but I believe a kind of betrayal is at the root of this, a cause of #'the basic fault' in our foundations. Betrayal is a kind of moral corruption - isnt it?
I found a friend who mirrored me. He loved me with a pure kind of love and I started to be able to see myself.
And this comes over clearly how one needs anothe human being or other relationships to believe in, to be real and stand by us, (not betray the principle), in that dark place where we really need to be able to trust.
And thats such an imagery 'hit the ground running', being clear, and real. I have had the fog problem. I also recognise this as an important issue. Its like being caught away from reality, and cant get back in. But I believe I have needed that vital thing, the healing relationship that could make me real, or able to engage with reality. Each healing relationship I've engaged in before now has involved a betrayal in some way.
God brought him as I believe God will direct us to healing if we will listen and follow.
Yes.
-
...........And, when you were writing that last post, how real did you feel then?
xx0 r.
-
Dear River
Are you saying that IF we access our realness, we can become real?In other words, if we act real, we can BECOME real. Thank you. Ami
-
Dear River
I wrote the Blackie/Whitie thread ,in part ,as a way of becoming real.
I am so blessed with wonderful people coming to to my life. Are you?
Also, I have stomach problems cuz my stomach FEELS my feelings to keep me safe, I think. Do you know what I am talking about?
Ami
-
Sorry to butt into your conversation, but the discussion of betrayal reminded me of an excellent book:
"The Betrayal Bond: Breaking Free of Exploitive Relationships" by Patrick J. Carnes. For me, this book explained a lot.
http://www.amazon.com/Betrayal-Bond-Breaking-Exploitive-Relationships/dp/1558745262
http://www.enotalone.com/article/4291.html
What Trauma Does To People
Excerpted from The Betrayal Bond: Breaking Free of Exploitive Relationships
By Patrick J. Carnes
Exploitive relationships can create trauma bonds-chains that link a victim to someone who is dangerous to them. Divorce, employee relations, litigation of any type, incest and child abuse, family and marital systems, domestic violence, hostage negotiations, kidnapping, professional exploitation and religious abuse are all areas of trauma bonding. All these relationship share one thing: they are situations of incredible intensity or importance where there is an exploitation of trust or power.
In The Betrayal Bond Patrick Carnes presents an in-depth study of these relationships, why they form, who is most susceptible, and how they become so powerful. He shows how to recognize when traumatic bonding has occurred and gives a checklist for examining relationships. He then provides steps to safely extricate from these relationships.
-
This is all so interesting. Ami & River, you delve into so much. The "numb" factor is complicated and a reality of realness. Betrayal is almost like it's own entity functioning in places we could never fathom existed but then we were exploited as we were betrayed in that secret place, wherever that place is for each of us.
Ann3: That topic hits close to home for me. I SEE the connection now! I have a toxic person in my life and the bond is strong between us only because of this toxicity and I can not shake the relationship loose. Is this right?
As I see it, I will forever be a victim to this person because I may, or may not, be facilitating their power over me and so the bond continues and that leaves me wondering why this person won't leave me alone.
Don't know if this makes any sense as to the subject matter or even if it's right on point or not, but it just got me thinking about how this "bond" works and why I feel that a toxic and hurtful person has this POWER over me?????
As for my turning point or "shift" if you will. I believe that I became real and reality told me that it was reality, when I was hurting so bad that I literally blacked out. I pounded on a wall so hard I bruised my hands and wrists to black and blue. I looked around my bathroom and there were dents in the walls and my teeth chattered for 5 hours while I was at work and I shook like a leaf. I finally FELT the shock and awe my NM was imposing on me.
I have a lot more to say about my "shift" in thought but will end here for now. I hope I understand this correctly and am not off subject.
Bear
-
Hi Bear,
"I have a toxic person in my life and the bond is strong between us only because of this toxicity and I can not shake the relationship loose. Is this right? "
Yes, that's essentially what the books says. When we go thru trauma with someone else or if someone causes us trauma, we can have a 'trauma bond' with that person. If someone who was supposed to protect you causes the trauma (or enables it) then you have the trauma + the betrayal, which amounts to the 'betrayal bond' with that person. It's really hard to break this 'betrayal bond' with that person: they keep causing us pain, yet, we stay & can't leave: this is because we bonded to them via trauma & betrayal.
"As I see it, I will forever be a victim to this person because I may, or may not, be facilitating their power over me and so the bond continues and that leaves me wondering why this person won't leave me alone."
Yes, Bear, I see what you're saying, but let me put it like this: We may facilitate their power over us like a kidnap victim facilitates Stockholm Syndrome. So once we become conscious that we have become subjected to Stockholm Syndrome or the Betrayal Bond, we can set ourselves free. So, I don't want to say we are forever a victim because once we see the Stockholm Syndrome or the Betrayal Bond, we can start to change ourselves & set ourselves free.
I agree with you in that if we remain unconscious of Stockholm Syndrome or the Betrayal Bond, the bond continues & we can't understand why they don't leave us alone. Perhaps we 'can't understand why they don't leave us alone' because we don't see that WE can leave them & walk away & go 'no contact'. We don't feel/understand that we hold the key to our own jail cell.
(((((((((((((Bear))))))))))) So sorry for that shock & awe experience
This book really helped me, so hope you read it because it's amazing. It opened doors & I never felt the same.
xoxo,
ann
-
Dear River
Are you saying that IF we access our realness, we can become real?In other words, if we act real, we can BECOME real. Thank you. Ami
What I was wondering was that as you wrote, it sounded like a flow. and I imagined you feeling fully present, with expression, with focus, with motivation .... ?
-
Anne, Yes I've read that book, In fact worked thro it. I found it briliant, he's right about a lot. tho it gave me understaning, it STILL didnt change me inside. Thanks for the links. Reading about and understanding the disorders of the self, that gave me some lift off.
Sorry to butt into your conversation, but the discussion of betrayal reminded me of an excellent book:
"The Betrayal Bond: Breaking Free of Exploitive Relationships" by Patrick J. Carnes. For me, this book explained a lot.
http://www.amazon.com/Betrayal-Bond-Breaking-Exploitive-Relationships/dp/1558745262
http://www.enotalone.com/article/4291.html
-
Dear River
Are you saying that IF we access our realness, we can become real?In other words, if we act real, we can BECOME real. Thank you. Ami
What I was wondering was that as you wrote, it sounded like a flow. and I imagined you feeling fully present, with expression, with focus, with motivation .... ?
I have many present moments now, River. I feels really good. I am swimming up from a long time underwater.I am so glad you are on the Board ! x o x Ami
-
Bear, theres a lot here for me too.
This is how I understood myself re getting caught in those types of relationships. . After many years of trying, seeking groups healing etc, I cam home after yet another WE work shop that promised so much, and as i put my key in the door, I realised nothing has changed, later I came to call it an 'emotional anatomy'.
Im a humanist, I believe in high ideals about how humans should treat one another. Yet, this was like a second bone structure inside me, my physical and emotional attraction towards a relationship that was emotianally abusive.
It was years later, I found the books that described it. It had a scientific name 'intrapsychic structure'. I understood that it was in me, but still, not exactly really me. My life involved so much loneliness, the 'self in exile', the other side of the coin.... its described here with a picture....
http://www.selfinexile.com/Characteristics_1.html
As I see it, I will forever be a victim to this person because I may, or may not, be facilitating their power over me and so the bond continues and that leaves me wondering why this person won't leave me alone.
As for my turning point or "shift" if you will. I believe that I became real and reality told me that it was reality, when I was hurting so bad that I literally blacked out. I pounded on a wall so hard I bruised my hands and wrists to black and blue. I looked around my bathroom and there were dents in the walls and my teeth chattered for 5 hours while I was at work and I shook like a leaf. I finally FELT the shock and awe my NM was imposing on me.
Bear