Voicelessness and Emotional Survival Message Board
Voicelessness and Emotional Survival => Voicelessness and Emotional Survival Message Board => Topic started by: findingme on October 20, 2004, 10:06:39 PM
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Just curious how many of you have Ns that claim to be Christians? Three of my four have a strong "faith" & attend church regularly. They even sound pretty good when they talk about their faith (they usually *sound* good!). It's just when the N flashes & the real person appears, their behavior flies in the face of all that they proclaim to believe & leaves you thinking "huh???"
p.s. I am a Christian, so this post is not trying to blame Christianity for NPD or any association with it! Just wanted to compare notes...
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I have a crazy Nfather that claims to be "born again". That's great if you can actually walk the walk, but this guy is such a sham.
He was married to a very nice Christian woman, her I believed. For some reason he got it into his fool head that her son was gay. He happens to be married and is expecting his second child. You can't convince Ndad that this is not true, but he believes it and his wife just didn't "understand" that Jon is a sinner and this needs to be resolved. Got to the point where his wife finally filed for divorce. And this was no small feat for her. Dingdong Dad just doesn't understand why she might be upset about Jon "being gay" and he's now got the entire church they belong to in their business. There is a lot more to the story, but what he claims to be and what he really is are worlds apart. Amazing to me, yet appaling.
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Hi y'all,
A PK here (preacher's kid). My experience is that many people really are trying to be "correct" and live righteously. But the Myers-Brigg "J" part of some people kicks in when other people fall short, in their eyes. Religion can draw lots of Ns because who can argue with God? And they speak for God, you know. Just one step away from being God...
There is a wonderful book by the founders of AA called the Spirituality of Imperfection. It talks about people learning to be "not-God". I wonder if there is some link between the compulsion to be right, to be perfect, and placing this importance higher than the impulse to nurture healthy relationships and substance abuse. But that is another thread...
One of my favorite quotes is from the Dalai Lama: "Kindness is my religion." Says it all.
Peace, Seeker
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Excellent thread idea!
Both NParents - pillars of the church.
NM sings in choir, bible study, and the minister is always a 'friend' - comes to her place for dinner - and when ND died in June the minister kept at me to try harder to be close to NM, that he 'Knew' she was wanting that, and it was time for me to extend my hand and open up to her, that she was just waiting for me, etc etc - even HE doesn't see her NPD. That was horrible for me, for once again, N was believed and I was not.
What better place for Ns to prove that they are good than in a church environment? Others in the community see her singing in the choir, so OF COURSE she of wonderful!
Ns are very skilled at performing perfectly for each situation, and all the pompous posturing seems to flatter the people in their lives. However, I have noticed that NM never lets anyone get close to her, so no one ever really gets to know her, just her facade. She lies, uses people for her 'need of the moment', and discards them when she is done.
I have been struggling with the Fifth Commandment : "Honour thy father and thy mother".
I have been doing so, just because it is right, but am having quite a struggle with that one. I think they should be honourable, to be honoured. :?:
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Ack that commandment : "Honour thy father and thy mother" is in fact a huge threat - something like 'so that your days on the earth may be long'??
So if you don't 'honour' them, you'll die? What kind of a loving rule is that? It's a rule built on fear, intending solely to keep the population under control. It's utter rubbish, written by men who wanted to suck up to those in positions of power in the State-run religion of the time. :shock: Got a bit carried away there but it makes me mad, religion is responsible for so much human suffering.
And have you noticed, there isn't one religion that focuses on life and only life? All of the major religions have an afterlife of some description. So they control you in this life, with promises of rewards in the next. What nonsense but how effective in stopping people thinking for themselves.
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This is Ellie - not logged in
Ack that commandment : "Honour thy father and thy mother" is in fact a huge threat - something like 'so that your days on the earth may be long'??
Funny that you bring that up....
Nparents always interpreted that one to mean they had the power and right to kill their child of they didn't obey them - at least that's what they taught me.
Such LOVE!!!!! :x
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I also was raised by Christian parents - spare the rod and spoil the child and all of that.
However, I wound up going to a Christian camp over the summer and meeting a great older counselor. She cared for all of her campers the same way, and over the years mentored us and introduced us into leadership. She is now the camp director. I look at her mentoring and influence as the way I got away from my parents. To this day she is more of a mom to me than my nmom is.
I have a few comments about honoring your parents. I stil do go to church - and our pastor was raised by 8 stepdads who regularly beat him and his mother up. He was talking about honoring your parents even after abuse.
His words have helped me tremendously. His way of interpreting honoring is give credence to what they have to say. Mostly everything that my nmom says is wrong and unhealthy and I can dismiss it. Rarely, does she say things that are valid (and it takes a long time to disect through all her words to find it).
. . . .and even though his words have helped tremendously, it's not easy when I wind up on the phone with nmom for hours!
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Good Question..I wondered the same thing.
I was raised catholic. We went to parochial school. My parents are Eucharistic Ministers :roll: I always thought it was so hypocritical that my Nmom could stand on an altar and give out communion to people when she couldn't even apologize or recognize that she was fallable herself. So needless to say, honor thy father & mother was HUGE in my house. My grandmother watches the mass everyday and you can find tons of religious articles in her house. I was told my grandmother that I needed to go back to the church cuz the :evil: devil must be in me and that it would clean my conscience :roll:
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Organized religion is 95% guilt trip, 5% other stuff.
Children of Ns grow up with massive amounts of guilt the Nparents pour on them. To have to then accept the guilt the church throws out is overwhelming.
Ellie
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Angrygirl again (not logged in)
I remember when my Nmom would say "Honor thy father & mother" to me, I used to think of this from one of the psalms - Fathers do not nag thy children, lest they lose heart (but I changed it to "Mothers") :P
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I have been struggling with the Fifth Commandment : "Honour thy father and thy mother".
I have been doing so, just because it is right, but am having quite a struggle with that one. I think they should be honourable, to be honoured. :?:
Here's how I interpret this commandment: "Don't attack, kill, or maim your parents. Treat them as well as you can, safely."
bunny
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I interpret it to mean: provide your parents with great respect, which is, for me, the natural way. Now, of course, that would imply that the child would be loved and treated in a natural way. I think it also means to give them more slack than you do others in this life. I did all that -- wait, I WAY OVERDID ALL THAT. The twisted wickedness of Nparents makes all of this non-applicable. Sometimes when I remember all the squirming I did trying to please the unpleasable, it makes me embarrassed. I wonder what others thought to see such a strong woman melt into a puddle. I have a friend who tells me I always "made excuses" for the NQueenmother's treatment of me and, as far as that goes, for all her actions. But, my friend had a regular mother and she doesn't get it. You can't pet a snake, nor can you turn your back on them.
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Hello Carie Anne,
It's funny you should post this question - I've been thinking about this very thing over the last few weeks.
I come from a line of at least 5 generations of pure narcissism, mostly female. There's my generation (the great grandchildren), my mother and her sisters generation (all three women seriously damaged by their abusive, neglectful, histrionic mother; my grandmother). But the root of those three generations of chaotic dysfunction, as far as any of us can trace it back, would be to my Great grandmother, who is still alive. She and my Great grandfather had their first child in the 30's. He was in the war, she was the "good chrisitian" housewife/mother.
My Great grandmother is of rigid German heritage, and her father was an abusive drunk.
My Great grandmother's narcissism is so obvious, everyone in the family sees and recognizes the dysfunction. The two of them (my Great grandparents) are EXTREMELY pathological in their religiosity. The way the church owns them, it's disturbing to watch. Nearly everything that comes out of either one of their mouths, for all of us three generations after her, was riddled with bible babble. There's nothing like being told by your Great grandother that "if you let the Lord into your heart he will heal you of your chronic, incurable disease" - trying to express to me that my disease is the work of the devil - and that loving jesus will cure me when medical science can't. And it's funny cos - jesus hasn't healed my Great grandfather of HIS bowel condition that he's has since he was in his 20's.
They are a strange couple - he talks in tongues at night - and claims that on somenights he becomes posessed by demons. I've heard him ranting in the wee hours of the morning - babbling, fighting, screaming at the "demons" - I suppose this is some form of dementia - maybe schitzophrenia.
Their religiosity caused 4 generations of massive dysfunction in all branches of my family.
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From Ellie:
MAYBE our Nparents saw the following verse to mean: 'No matter what you do to your children, they may not get angry! Don't let them speak, don't let them show emotion, don't let them be happy, but teach them how you interpret MY word"
"Fathers, do not provoke your children to wrath, but bring them up in the training and admonition of the Lord. Eph 6.4"
MY Nparents missed this part of the Bible:
"Lying lips are an abomination to the LORD, but those who deal truthfully are His delight."
Prov 12.22
MAYBE our parents (for those abused) lived their lives by this verse:
"Happy shall he be who takes your little ones and dashes them against the rock!"
..........Psalms 137:9"
And our fathers thought us girls were nothing to respect because:
"As in all the churches of the saints, the women should keep silence in the churches. For they are not permitted to speak, but should be subordinate, as even the law says. If there is anything they desire to know, let them ask their husbands at home. For it is shameful for a woman to speak in church."
..........1 Corinthians 14:34
AHA!! That is why I got my face smacked for speaking in church!!!! Now I finally know!
And here we go again - sorry males of Nparents, can't find any thing stating why you couldn't speak....
"Let a woman learn in silence with all submissiveness. I permit no woman to teach or have authority over men; she is to keep silent. For Adam was formed first, then Eve; and Adam was not deceived, but the woman was deceived and became a transgressor."
..........Timothy 2:11
Now I know why we are all hurting:
"Do not think that I have come to bring peace on earth; I have not come to bring peace, but a sword. For I have come to set a man against his father, and a daughter against her mother, and a daughter-in-law against her mother- in-law...."
..........Matthew 10:34
OR MAYBE it's this:
"If any one comes to me and does not hate his own father and mother and wife and children and brothers and sisters, yes, and even his own life, he cannot be my disciple."
..........Luke 14:26
OOOPS, Nparents MISSED the very last part "and even his own life"......
OK, I'm done.... :roll:
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Good morning everybody,
I think religion is how we mortals muck up God's intent. Religion and churchgoing are important, I feel, in order to feel support and a sense of community. I used to worry about the hypocrites, but darn it, God loves them too. But I can’t stand it when people use God as a weapon.
Honor what is honorable. If the only thing you can honor is the fact that they brought you into the world, honor that. That is, after all, a life-giving action. My belief is that healthy people honor and support life. Saying a few kind words to a stranger can be life-giving. What is it about the church that sends off the message that people are sinners but they are perfect in the Parent Dept.???? Huh?
There are different passages/stories in the Bible that tell parents to ease up. Sorry I don't know my scripture backwards and forwards, but there is one about fathers do not criticize your children so that they will not be discouraged.
As for the pastor-pressure, OnlyMe, you can tell him that he experiences your mother in a different way that must be positive for him, his community and for her, but that your experience with her has been anything but that. Why should you continue to let your Nmom torture you? It may be more lifegiving for both of you to stop the abuse by avoiding her. Tell him that.
Relationships are 100/100, so what has her contribution been to your relationship? Also, the song that this siren is singing says "oh pastor, you are so wise, perhaps YOU can reach her" that is, you are so wonderful you can fix this. Rescue me. :roll: Forgiveness doesn't mean condoning her treatment of you. It means accepting the fact of it, feeling and then letting go of the anger.
Ask him what he would tell a rape victim. Would he expect the victim to trust the rapist? Forgiveness for the victim would be to heal from the incredible harm, and move forward. Perhaps to help other victims. Tell him to look up narcissism on the internet to educate himself, and to stop perpetuating a bad and harmful situation for you, another child of God.
OK, having said all that (what a sermon! :shock: ) I am reminded of a New Yorker cartoon: there’s a drawing of a small house with a porch with a picket fence. On the gate is a sign: Beware of Dog. On the porch there’s the dog, smiling and holding a sign “Jesus loves you.”
:D Seeker
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Powerful Perspectives -
and powerful food for thought in all these postings.
You All offer so much wisdom which comes from experience, and helps sort out this ACON role and all the strings attached.
I have been struggling for so long with that Fifth Commandment - and now I think I can find some peace with it.
Huge Thank You (( :D )) from me to you.
ps: Seeker, next time I see NM's minister, I'll be ready - thx!!! :wink:
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Hey momma, come here and let me pluck that log from your eye. :P
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You can't pet a snake, nor can you turn your back on them.
Another fine quote for my "affirmations cue cards" ! :lol:
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Fathers, do not exasperate your children,; instead, bring them up in the training and instruction of the Lord. Ephesians 6:4
I just recently found this passage, I know it has always been there, but somehow I managed to read over it for the past 20+ years. Parents have to treat us with respect as people, something my Nmom has never been able to do. Also, this would require her to have to check her behavior or at least take some responsibility for it. My Nmom always had me beliving that I would have to answer to God and be punished accordingly for my defiance. I have lived in fear of eternal judgement my whole life, always being told that if I do not agree with her or remain loyal to her I will face judgement from God and be punished accordingly. Now I realize what a strong hold she had on me by saying that to me for the past 28 years. I finally have had to stand up to my Nmom because I have two younger brothers and she, of course, has been treating them the same. She professes to be a strong Christian and that my step-dad (her x) and I are evil. She has also told me and my brothers that she should have murdered us when she had the chance, because she has been given the most disloyal children on the planet. I do not know if I have given advice or vented something that has bothered me my entire life. Thanks for bringing up the point.
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Hey Guys: Boy, this thread is right up my alley. My mom had screwed up her life and got pregnant and married by 18, then divorced. She was "saved" in a little church and found love and acceptance by the small congregation and the young pastors.
But somehow between then (love and grace) and now (shame and guilt) the whole thing has turned into a list of "we don't do's." We don't drink, we don't smoke, we don't have premarital sex, we don't lie, we don't cheat, we don't steal..................we ALWAYS go to church every single week and if we don't, then we are bad. We wear dresses to church. We wear our hair like our mom and dress like our mom...............You see how it evolved to act like the perfect, Christian family. And NEVER EVER question your parents. Don't ever tell the family secrets. At all costs make everyone think we are the perfect family.
Then somehow my brother and I had had enough. I became a wiz at hiding all the stuff I was into.....my brother just didn't care. I talked in an earlier thread about using visine, and spraying perfume on, and brushing my teeth, etc. All to uphold the list of do's and don'ts. And the weird thing about that is to this day (I'm 45 years old) I still kind of "hide" stuff. Like I would never order a drink in front of my parents - or my oldest daughter because she is a carbon copy of my mother - first born, strong willed......................straight laced!
Oh, I could go on and on, too. My whole life has been punctuated with religiosity.....................not real Christianity..................but religion...which I consider to be extremely lame and not authentic at all!!
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First, I want to say that I do believe in a higher power. I am not fond of formal religion. They are VERY different things.
Now, that said, I would like to share what I was thinking when I read this thread.
I am Jewish. So I read the who thread thinking how lucky I am only subjected HALF of the guilt verbage.
I still believe that in the end, we are judged by how we have lived more than by how we hae ritualized. I think we all have seen devout people who are really getting the message and the ones who are doing the motions to impress other people. Do not be too hard on the ministers and leaders who accept the "help" of the hypocrites. My opinion is that the truly devout are hoping that some of the meaning will eventually sink into their heads. Most seminary education (in all standard religions) includes quite a bit of study in counseling and mental health conditions. They really DO see the hypocrites. Like the snake...they keep them around where they can see them. :)
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I still kind of "hide" stuff. Like I would never order a drink in front of my parents - or my oldest daughter because she is a carbon copy of my mother - first born, strong willed......................straight laced!
I wouldn't order unkosher food in front of my parents either. So I'm a bit scared. And I'm protecting her because I eat all the stuff she said Jews couldn't eat. It's kind of a slap in her face - or so she would think. And I'm not into provoking her.
bunny
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Most seminary education (in all standard religions) includes quite a bit of study in counseling and mental health conditions. They really DO see the hypocrites. Like the snake...they keep them around where they can see them. :)
I wish I could believe this about ministers, rabbis, etc. But I'm afraid they don't see the snakes and prefer not to see them. I think they have an "agenda" of maintaining the status quo, not rocking the boat, and not angering the powerful congregants. They don't keep the snakes around to control or supervise them. I don't think they have any power or influence over the Ns in their congregation.
bunny
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From Ellie - not logged in:
Funny some refer to snakes while speaking of religion. My grandparents were supposed to have ministered in a small church that used snake handling. Nparents refuse to admit it or talk about it. But they are of a similar religion with the speaking in tongues, etc. and think it's all perfectly normal.
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Such a great thread - really appreciate the respectful voices all. Just saw the film - 'What the bleep do we know.' How to describe it -an open, funny, expansive, spiritual exploration of human consciousness with particular emphasis on quantum physics. Highly recommend it.
Les
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Hi All! Gone for awhile, but back! I agree with the thought about ministers and such not rocking the boat. My mom and I went to her pastor for some counseling about three years ago...........we had had a blow up and realized that we needed some counsel.
I realized about a half hour into the counseling that it was VERY one sided. My mom gives the church a lot of money and I give nothing. I told the pastor that I could see that he was being very careful to not say the wrong thing because he didn't want to put her tithe in jeopardy!!
I would say that going to your nparent's pastor for counseling might not be the way to go if you want fair and impartial counseling. Not that he is a bad man, but he knows who butters his bread!!! (And pays his paycheck) Too bad these poor people who were "called" into the ministry get sucked up into this "try to please everyone" mentality!!
I wouldn't want to be a pastor. It seems that these pharisees that call themselves Christians, give Christianity a bad name!! And I suppose that happens with rabbis, too!! Too many rules and regulations - a breeding ground for perfectionistic narcissists!~
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I was raised in a fundamental Christian home and always knew something was wrong. My Nfather is controlling, disrespectful to others (especially to women), inconsistent, and at times totally irrational. He has always placed blame on me (or his other victims) whenever there was a problem. My husband and I are Christians, and we find it difficult to see how anyone could read the same Bible that we do and walk away unchanged by the very Words of God--but they do. And it seems that no matter what Scripture we use to confront my Nfather, he can come up with countless others to point the finger back at us and absolve himself of guilt. :?
Since the birth of my daughter and a confrontation between my Nfather and my husband, my Nfather has managed to get the entire family to gang up on us--"seeking reconciliation" however, none of them are willing to listen to our concerns and issues. We have read all the information online about N, and have come to the conclusion that this will probably never end, but for our own mental, emotional and spiritual health we need to get out! and get away from the control by proxy. For the sake of our new family and for our daughter (we don't want her to experience what I did growing up). It hurts that the people who calim to care the most, are actually the most detrimental to you, and when you try to explain that you are not angry at them, they project their emotions, feelings, and thoughts onto you and twist reality.
We just don't know what to do and we wish there was some way to let these people know that they are driving us away. Help! :?
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We just don't know what to do and we wish there was some way to let these people know that they are driving us away. Help!
Hi Lost, thanks for posting. An N doesn't care about you. Protect yourselves and stay away if you can. Do it for your daughter. Don't try to explain to anyone else as they will most likely not understand and it will make you look bad. Keep reading and learning.
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I guess one of the hardest parts of this is that Ndad has somehow turned the whole family against us (myself and my husband). Now the attacks come not only from him, but actually usually through the proxy (mom, sister, brothers), so we feel that if we do break from Ndad to protect ourselves, we will have to break from the rest of the family since they are being used as his proxies and we can't take the verbal blackmail/abuse from them either. :(
I talked with my mom the other day (I think she is an inverted N), and she basically said that Ndad is "afraid" of my H (because my H won't let him run over him, so he doesn't get his way), and that Ndad was "only doinf what he thought was best growing up" (I guess, verbal and emotional abuse is okay as long as you think you're right) :roll: When I tried to tell her the truth she still wouldn't listen and continued to propogate Ndad's view of reality.
It got so bad a few months ago that my H threatened to get a harrassment restraining order against my Ndad. Ndad backed off for awhile, but sent in the sibling/mom proxies saying that my H was sinning to "take a brother to court" and that he couldn't contact us because of the threat to "seek reconciliation" so we told him we were sorry for "hurting his feelings" then confronted him with some false rumors we had heard from the proxies. He denied that he had started the rumors, and has made no attempt to admit any wrong doing in the two months since supposedly wanting to seek reconciliation. He's so good at spinning his tales, that the rest of the family believes him and are unwilling to listen to us.
I have always dealt with his abuse in the past by remaining silent, because I believed that was the best thing to do. But now that I am married and we have a daughter, I believe they are my first priority and I/we cannot allow this kind of emotional abuse/blackmail to continue. My H comes from a wonderful loving Christian home where there is complete, unconditional love and acceptance. It is such a stark contrast for me, having never experienced that in a family relationship. (I have had friends like that, but it's different in the context of family.)
My sis is one of the worst proxies, and may in fact be an N herself, as she is unwilling to listen and has an answer before I even finish my statement. She is a very angry person. And I hate to say it, but I do not want my daughter around her thinking that it's okay to act that way.
You are right, in the end, each one of us has to answer to one person alone and that is Christ. He knows our hearts. He knows our hurts and He is the Great Physician. He alone can heal the open wounds of a broken heart. And in the end the wicked do not prosper. I find a lot of comfort in Psalm 37. I know that my H and I have sought only to resolve the conflict in Christ honoring ways and our attempts have been branded as "sin" and "evil" and a "sign of unrepentance", so be it! We are not responsible for the thoughts of others--we are only responsible for our own thoughts and actions and will give an account for what we have done.
The finality of leaving/vanishing/not talking to the family is hard (there are nieces and nephews that I will miss terribly), but the constant barrage of degrading comments and back stabbing is CAUSING us to sin (we are stuggling with anger and bitterness now, where as, when this all started, we were far from angry and bitter). My H and I both feel that we should leave if only for the sake of cutting ourselves off from something that is causing us to sin. :( We have sought counsel in this and that counsel is divided. some say stay and work it out, but those who know about NPD say "get out", but that doesn't make it any easier for me. I guess deep down I am an optimist, and even though I know that nothing has ever changed in my relationship with my Ndad--he is always right--I keep hoping and praying that someday the Lord will get a hold of his heart and he will realize what he has done and that he will actually CARE about me, about my H and about his grandchildren (not as sources of N supply--but truly care/love). I believe that NOTHING is impossible with God and I know that He can change even the vilest of sinners! I just pray that we will live to see His hand at work in our family and that He will be glorified in all things. We don't hate these people, in fact we love them (and have forgiven them for all the emotional and verbal abuse and the lies) and long for a genuine open relationship with them, but right now that seems impossible.
Thanks for listening and for caring. It is comforting to know that there are others out there who do understand and who will listen.
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Hi Ellie and Lost: Sounds like we all have a lot in common! It's funny, because I now am involved in a Christian business, my children go to Christian school and we don't regularly go to church.
I went for years to my parents church but then if I chose not to go, I got phone calls asking me why. It was a constant scrutiny on my attendance that wore me down.
After my divorce I started taking my girls to another church. My nmom was so mad at me!! She wanted us to be with them and go out to eat every week after service.
When I got remarried my new husband put a cabash on that since he didn't think we could afford to go out every weekend. Plus we never developed any friendships with other people - we spent all our time with family.
Then our lives became so busy and we decided that God had stated that the sabbath was a day of rest - but it was becoming one of the more busy days what with church and then eating out and then practices for my girls later on in the day....................It got to be too much. So now my parents just consider me the worse parent because we don't get up and go to church on Sunday mornings. My mom still picks up my little ones to go to Wednesday night service but my senior in high school doesn't go. But remember - she has gone to Christian school since kindergarten and they have chapel every week and this girl does not drink, smoke, cuss or anything else like I did!!! (The girl who went to church every week because I was made to............................) Still a Christian - but so much different then my nparents wish I was. I have gone from being a phoney who went to church every week to an authentic christian person who doesn't!
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Kellydckm here: Wonder if there is something there. N people who find the rules and regulations of organized religion an easy way to wield their N ways upon us!
It is so much easier for folks to make your life miserable under the guise of the church then under the guise of abuse!
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FFPCP "Fanatical Fundamentalist Phoney Christian Parents"
Hopefully I will NEVER be a part of that club - I'll settle being a poor abused victim of one..........................
And never perpetuate those lies.................
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My nmom purports to have religion and always says she'll pray for me. Well, I guess her praying worked because I'm much happier now that we don't have much contact!
It's funny (ironic) that so many Ns purport to be men and women of God and you wonder how that can be so, or at least I do. Gosh, these are the same people who can't apologoze to save their life or be bothered to be humble once in a while. How does anything related to God get through at all?
I'm going back to the "types of Ns" list to see if this phenomenon is listed. And can an N ever really be saved? It seems like you would have to submit to the God or higher power and I don't think they can submit.
Oh well. Rambling now.
Dee
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I believe in a higher power but not in organised religion and I was raised in a very orthdox manner by my parents who are Hindus even though my ndad would deny it. He is a rationalist in his own words.
For my dad, he is God and religion is only a reaffirmation of what he already knows and is preaching :roll: He would twist and turn every religious texts he reads and claim they say what he says. he would use religion as a weapon to gain 'power' over the 'lesser souls'
For my mom she is goodness and nothing less, and me and others ( especially men ) arent that pure :roll: Her relationship with God is also somewhat special.. it is kind of special private space which she has created for herself free from all the tortures ( my ndad ) and burden ( myself ) in this world
and in that context ' honour the father, honour the mother' it is so hard to take in at face value and need NOT be taken as such but I think it still holds good meaning to me...
do not disown anything..father could symbolise power, authority, strenght etc and mother- nurture, warmth elegance etc.. in Jungian terms the shadow and the anima/animus. We definitely need to honour each and every aspects of ourselves !! Just because the parents are not ideal or the world being a conflicting and divided place does not mean that we should lose faith in OURSELVES !
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the abocve post was by me
Spirit
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The comment about "how can a N be a Christian?????" struck home with me. You are right when you say that they cannot apologize (because they cannot admit that they are EVER wrong.......) or be humble........my nmom is soooo prideful, it literally makes me sick. How can they submit to a higher power?
For my nmom, the higher power gives her the authority to judge and feel disappointed in me and others. My whole life there was this look of disapproval on my nmom's face whenever I did or said anything. Because I was rebellious as a teenager and beyond, my mere existence was a disappointment to my mom and I suppose she considered me the worst kind of sinner!!!
Oh, I think organized religion only feeds into the N. It gives them fuel to be pious and judgmental.
But the good news is I think I have finally shook that inner voice that made me feel guilty every single day of my life if I didn't agree with my mom. I finally pushed her out of my life sufficiently to make her realize that I mean business and that I will not be guilted into submission, or manipulated in to doing what she wants........................kelly
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Hi Kelly,
This is Ellie....
I enjoyed my weekend by riding my motorcycle with H. It was beautiful both days and we got 80 miles in.
I had a bigger grin than usual and it took a while to realize I was thinking about how livid Nparents would be if they could see me riding down the road on my bike - a few miles over the speed limit just for fun - feeling confident on the bike and grinning so big.
Here's the sins they would say I commited:
1. Riding a motorcycle is a sin - because they hate them
2. Dressing in black leather is a sin because it was worn by hell's angels and such.
3. Riding over the speed limit is a sin because it is breaking the law.
4. Grinning from ear to ear is a sin because god never meant for human to be so happy - they must be miserable to be a christian.
So today - on a Monday - I am happier and more content with my life that I have been in months!
Oh, plus H and I planned a ski vacation for Thanksgiving again. Nparents used to get so angry that we would dare go somewhere for the holiday except their house. Sure I would rather be at their home watching Ndad yell at Nmom because she wasn't waiting on him enough. Nmom yelling at the dog because she needs someone to yell at. Nmom making a little 5 lb. turkey breast for my family that can consume a 10 lb. for just us alone. Ndad has the heat up to 98 degrees in the house so Nmom is fussing about that. Niece (actually adopted sister) ignoring all and acting 5 years when she is 18. My kids miserable because there is nothing to do at their house. Nmom refuses to let anyone help but after dinner complains that we are all ungrateful....
Yep, I'm going skiing this year! :lol:
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Hi Ellie,
Yeah!!!!I will miss step dad having CNN up so loud, it would wake the neighbors and having it on practically 24/7 babbling about his political junk. And My Mom's too cold house and her hard beds. And having to help in the kitchen all the while listening to her be cross about one thing and then another.
Oh gosh. This year will be so much nicer just home with my H. Peace, quiet and eating and doing what we want.
Enjoy your motor bike!