Voicelessness and Emotional Survival Message Board
Voicelessness and Emotional Survival => Voicelessness and Emotional Survival Message Board => Topic started by: Lucky on January 27, 2010, 04:13:16 AM
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I would like to make a collection of anything narcissistic. All deeds, behaviors, emotions of a narcissist with possibly real life examples. Because there are so so many ins and outs to narcissism and sometimes it is difficult to get the whole picture. You read about some traits in one book or on one website and about others in an other book or on an other website.
For people who first discover narcissism it is very hard to get the whole picture by reading one book or reading on one website. On this forum there are lots of examples but one would have to read so many posts and answers to really get the whole picture.
What do you think would this be a good idea?
I mean a bit like this: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Narcissism but then made by people that grew up with one or two N parents and maybe also had one or more N partners and have themselves read a lot. Us real insiders who got to see and feel all aspects. And who can give real life examples.
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To start with we have traits that are each other's opposites like ignoring and engulfing but both are narcissistic traits.
We have the defense mechanisms. The anxiety and depression. The emotional vampireness, the Golden child and scapegoat dynamic. There is just so much to mention. The manipulations (blackmailing for example), the rage which can be expressed very loudly by screaming and shouting, throwing objects and physical abuse or can be always just under the surface but coming out in grumpyness, sarcasm, humiliations, put downs and the like. The brainwashing or is that a type of manipulation? Lying, egotism, shamelessness or extreme shame. The type that only misbehaves at home with partner and child(ren) and the type that also misbehaves/get angry or mean to people outside the home. The attention seeking behavior and drama queen behavior. The drama trangle, pitting people against each other, extensive gossiping. Problems with boundaries, being extremely vain or preoccupied with money. Money stealing, fraud, exploiting partner/child(ren), freeloading, underachiever or very competitive careerwise (overachiever) but that is part also of opposing traits that can both be narcissistic. Deceitfulness, Munchhausen by proxy, neglect of self and others. Being overly tidy or being a hoarder. Always blaming others, not taking repsonibility. Easily feeling attacked, not being able to take any criticism, needing lots of praise. Sucking up to authority figures are being very critical and difficult with authority figures. Parentification, infantalizing of child(ren), pushing child to perform in a field chosen by the parent (that the parent always wanted to perform in himself/herself). Not wanting to help a child (with homework for example), not explaining certain things to a child (how to cook for example=infantilization), not wanting to spend money on a child (that is the preoccupation with money again). Never playing with the child but that is the ignoring thing again. Endangering the child by for example kicking the child out of the car at night.
Delusions, psychosis, threatening with commiting suicide, all kinds of other threats. Parental alienation, Alcoholism. Not being able to say sorry, revengefulness, never being able to forgive or forget. No empathy, being aloof, self absorbed, stalking, no conscience. Being unstable/fickle, hypochondria. Baiting, provoking, tormenting, bullying. Gaslighting, character assassination. Punishing either if you do or if you don't, setting you up for failure. Inappropriate talk about sexuality/defecation. Entitlement, arrogance. Two faced/Jekyll and Hyde, bragging. Saying one thing and doing an other, making others voiceless.
Who can think of more? And maybe think of a way to categorize? Or give examples?
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I found the following check list that I had not seen before:
http://www.albernstein.com/id59.htm
THE SMARTEST, MOST TALENTED,
ALL-AROUND BEST PERSON IN THE WORLD TEST:
THE NARCISSISTIC VAMPIRE CHECKLIST
True or false? Score one point for each true answer.
1. THIS PERSON HAS ACHIEVED MORE THAN MOST PEOPLE HIS OR HER AGE.
2. THIS PERSON IS FIRMLY CONVINCED THAT HE OR SHE IS BETTER, SMARTER, OR MORE TALENTED THAN OTHER PEOPLE.
3. THIS PERSON LOVES COMPETITION, BUT IS A POOR LOSER.
4. THIS PERSON HAS FANTASIES OF DOING SOMETHING GREAT OR BEING FAMOUS, AND OFTEN EXPECTS TO BE TREATED AS IF THESE FANTASIES HAD ALREADY COME TRUE.
5. THIS PERSON HAS VERY LITTLE INTEREST IN WHAT OTHER PEOPLE ARE THINKING OR FEELING, UNLESS HE OR SHE WANTS SOMETHING FROM THEM.
6. THIS PERSON IS A NAME DROPPER.
7. TO THIS PERSON IT IS VERY IMPORTANT TO LIVE IN THE RIGHT PLACE AND ASSOCIATE WITH THE RIGHT PEOPLE.
8. THIS PERSON TAKES ADVANTAGE OF OTHER PEOPLE TO ACHIEVE HIS OR HER OWN GOALS.
9. THIS PERSON USUALLY MANAGES TO BE IN A CATEGORY BY HIM OR HERSELF.
10. THIS PERSON OFTEN FEELS PUT UPON WHEN ASKED TO TAKE CARE OF HIS OR HER RESPONSIBILITIES TO FAMILY, FRIENDS, OR WORK GROUP.
11. THIS PERSON REGULARLY DISREGARDS RULES OR EXPECTS THEM TO BE CHANGED BECAUSE HE OR SHE IS IN SOME WAY SPECIAL.
12. THIS PERSON BECOMES IRRITATED WHEN OTHER PEOPLE DON'T AUTOMATICALLY DO WHAT HE OR SHE WANTS THEM TO DO, EVEN WHEN THEY HAVE A GOOD REASON FOR NOT COMPLYING.
13. THIS PERSON REVIEWS SPORTS, ART, AND LITERATURE BY TELLING YOU WHAT HE OR SHE WOULD HAVE DONE INSTEAD.
14. THIS PERSON THINKS MOST CRITICISMS OF HIM OR HER ARE MOTIVATED BY JEALOUSY.
15. THIS PERSON REGARDS ANYTHING SHORT OF WORSHIP TO BE REJECTION.
16. THIS PERSON SUFFERS FROM A CONGENITAL INABILITY TO RECOGNIZE HIS OR HER OWN MISTAKES. ON THE RARE OCCASIONS THAT THIS PERSON DOES RECOGNIZE A MISTAKE, EVEN THE SLIGHTEST ERROR CAN PRECIPITATE A MAJOR DEPRESSION.
17. THIS PERSON OFTEN EXPLAINS WHY PEOPLE WHO ARE BETTER KNOWN THAN HE OR SHE IS ARE NOT REALLY ALL THAT GREAT.
18. THIS PERSON OFTEN COMPLAINS OF BEING MISTREATED OR MISUNDERSTOOD.
19. PEOPLE EITHER LOVE OR HATE THIS PERSON.
20. DESPITE THIS PERSON'S OVERLY HIGH OPINION OF HIM OR HERSELF, HE OR SHE IS REALLY QUITE INTELLIGENT AND TALENTED.
Scoring: Five or more true answers qualifies the person as a Narcissistic Emotional Vampire, though not necessarily for a diagnosis of Narcissistic Personality. If the person scores higher than ten, and is not a member of the royal family, be careful that you aren't mistaken for one of the servants.
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By the way I forgot to mention controlling behaviour. Controlling the way you look, think, behave, feel but that might be part of something I already mentioned. And ofcourse there is envy. Invalidation, easily bored, exhibitionistic. Paranoia, claims to be an 'expert' about most things.
The defense mechanisms are: (delusional) projection, denial, distortion, splitting, acting out, fantasy, idealization, passive aggression, projective identification, somatization, displacement, dissociation, intellectualization, isolation, rationalization, reaction formation, regression, repression and undoing.
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((((Sweetie))))
It is so important to try to identify what you are dealing with cuz an N is kind of like a strange animal in the zoo.They are aberrations of human beings.
I want to come back and study your info cuz it is very important.
For right now, I just wanted to give you a hug! x o x o Ami
PS I think the best,most definitive,no nonsense book on N is 'Malignant Self Love" by Vaknin. I had an almost 24/7 panic attack when I read it but it is just how they are! (IME)
Why soft pedal something as HORRIBLE as N--right?
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Hi Ami,
I have Vaknin's book at home. It is good yes but ofcourse there is a lot to read in it so I wanted to make a short run down for people to read in maybe about 15 minutes for them to get a good idea about narcissism. A lot of people just lack the patience to read a whole book like Vaknin's.
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I see what you mean, Lucky. x o xo Ami
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However I think making a piece of text that people really give an insight in fifteen minutes of reading is not manageable. Better make it at least half an hour of reading :?.
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:lol: :lol: Yes Sweetie. It is such a BIG and hard to understand topic. I did not want you to get discouraged trying to bite off a project that seemed impossible . x o xo Ami
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Hi Lucky,
I think the books say a lot but most are written from the vantage point of an observer rather than a participant in the relationship. I think Nina Brown's Children of the Self-Absorbed is the best book I've ever read for children of N's.
When it comes to traits, there are many but the most damaging ones in my opinion have to do with their talent for mimicry and are seldom discussed at length.
1. N's mimic emotions, often very dramatically and seductively.
2 Interacting emotionally with an N for any length of time causes the script that goes with their act to run out.
3. In order to escape emotional situations they've gotten themselves into, N's always launch an attack against the person who has developed emotional expectations of them.
4. N's are often caught off guard by spontaneous expressions of feeling and will either react with an abusive response or change the subject to something they can handle.
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However I think making a piece of text that people really give an insight in fifteen minutes of reading is not manageable. Better make it at least half an hour of reading
This is a good idea, but may need a BIT more to make it sufficient, maybe half an hour + 5m : )
I do have a recommendation: This book gives an explanation of the internal workings of the N. , call it 'Intrapsychic Structure', explains the vulnerabiliies and motivations. It has a diagram too. Its written for profs, but with a bit of understanding, which I think you do already have anyway, its not impossible to understand. Moreover, it gives insight into all the disorders, so it helps you see that theres 3 mojor disorders going on, and I also think they all create and perpetuate eachother, .........
The book: 'The Therapist's Guide to the Personality Disorders' by Masterson and Lieberman.
hope this works.
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Sealinx
N's are often caught off guard by spontaneous expressions of feeling and will either react with an abusive response or change the subject to something they can handle.
Ive noticed this too. Or try to take control of it and make it thier own, - appropriate it.
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2 Interacting emotionally with an N for any length of time causes the script that goes with their act to run out.
This is true but in the instant of a partnership, employment or marriage the N holds the upper hand, these relationships can go on for years, the N can remain undetected because they usually find people to marry or engage with that are wounded, easy to influence, easy prey, and then easy to enmesh with, making it extremely difficult for the non-N in the relationship to separate out truth from false.
There are so many different types of N's. The ones that possess high intelligence, the cerebral N's, are the most difficult to detect because they use their intelligence to foster belief from others in them.
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Hi Gabben,
Yes, they can remain in positions of authority or in marriages for a very long time. You are right about the people they pick. There is a lot of talk about N's seeking their reflection in a mirror but not nearly as much about how the high functioning ones use "deflection" to push the problems caused by of their lack of understanding on to others. There motto is "Something has gone wrong in my world. How do I make it your fault." I think they get noticed, just not blamed until they are either too high up in the company or so good at making their partner feel inadequate that the partner doesn't think anyone else could love them or that they have the skills to support themselves.
Even though they can't feel a situation out, they retain an uncanny ability to spot situations where power plays can be used and seize it.
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Hi Lucky,
I think the books say a lot but most are written from the vantage point of an observer rather than a participant in the relationship. I think Nina Brown's Children of the Self-Absorbed is the best book I've ever read for children of N's.
When it comes to traits, there are many but the most damaging ones in my opinion have to do with their talent for mimicry and are seldom discussed at length.
1. N's mimic emotions, often very dramatically and seductively.
2 Interacting emotionally with an N for any length of time causes the script that goes with their act to run out.
3. In order to escape emotional situations they've gotten themselves into, N's always launch an attack against the person who has developed emotional expectations of them.
4. N's are often caught off guard by spontaneous expressions of feeling and will either react with an abusive response or change the subject to something they can handle.
Sealynx, I think you did an amazing job of hitting the nail on the head, at least from the n's I have had in my life. I was reading through your 4 points trying to pick one that made the most sense to me, but they all have been my experience.Thanks. That summed it up for me.
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Hi Logy,
To me this is one of the best reasons for going LC if you aren't NC and with as little discussion as possible. I always say don't start a war, do a ballet. Avoidance (with polite excuse) gives them an out where they can save face and not feel cornered by your feelings. It is hard to tell when that script will run out but, as an adult, if you can leave before it happens, you can usually manage short visits.
Sea
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Well I think with this topic we could give people who never knew anything about narcissism before a good idea about the ins and outs of narcissism. Is there anything still missing? When we are finished I will make a Word document out of it for myself to give to persons that are wondering what narcissism looks like.
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By the way, are snobism, racism and sexism also part of narcisistic behavior? And how about being overly preoccupied with sexuality or having no interest in sexuality at all? And paedophilia and (sado)masochism and fetishism? Ofcourse incest is definitely part of narcissistic behavior.
Good heavens the list seems to get longer and longer.
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I think racism definitely is part of a narcissistic pattern, it is just spread out over many people and is more in the domain of sociology rather than psychology (which is where we are usually at when we discuss our parents' narcissism). Although raised in a highly racist part of the States, my dad was able to make friends with people of all colors, ethnicities, etc. (He was not narcissistic). My mom, on the other hand, does not change her opinions about people of other "groups" for anything. For example, she has a certain (negative) opinion of another ethnic group. If she meets somebody that she really likes in that other ethnic group, she will say, "Well he/she is an exception." Not that her opinion needs to be changed, but that the person she likes is not REALLY representative of the other-group. Drives me insane, but then a lot of the way she thinks drives me insane. But I regard this as a manifestation of the rigid thought patterns (gaslighting) that go with the narcissistic traits --- it is not her that needs to change, it is reality that needs to change. SImilar to when she gaslights me, when she confronts a reality that says her opinion is wrong, she has to twist the reality around to fit her opinion.
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And how do you think narcissism is devided between men and women? About 50/50 or a different percentage?
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This is a good list:
http://www.outofthefog.net/CommonBehaviors.html
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How about hoarding, might it be narcissism related? I am not sure if I mentioned it. There are so many things related to adults not being grown up and I am afraid I have quite a number of these traits :shock:!! Aaarrrggghhhh!
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4. N's are often caught off guard by spontaneous expressions of feeling and will either react with an abusive response or change the subject to something they can handle.
This one is HUGE with my N mother. HUGE. In fact, the incident that caused me to finally go NC came after an abusive rage response. I called her with some benign question, and during the course of the conversation, I discovered that she had sabotaged my job search. I finally lost it, and started calling her out on many years worth of sabotage. She couldn't handle all that truth coming at her all at once, didn't know what to do, so put down the phone and started calling hysterically for my co-dependent father to help her. I could hear her on the other end of the phone, bawling her eyes out, and screaming, "Honey, help me, help me, Kathy's picking on me, help me, help me."
Seriously, you would have thought she was being murdered, it was that bad. I finally hung up the phone. That was *the* moment where my brain finally told me, ENOUGH.
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By the way, are snobism, racism and sexism also part of narcisistic behavior?
My mother hates all other people except herself and her GC, but above all, is an extreme racist. I've talked to a few therapists about this, and while they do agree that it's an N trait, they've told me that NM is also a sociopath, because her hatred runs so deep.