Voicelessness and Emotional Survival Message Board
Voicelessness and Emotional Survival => Voicelessness and Emotional Survival Message Board => Topic started by: Ales2 on January 28, 2010, 07:32:37 PM
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Has anyone gotten more depressed after leaving therapy? I sense that therapy makes my depression worse because I have denied or suppressed my feelings of loneliness and frustration for so long. No one has cared enough to truly listen before. I went on Tuesday and Wednesday morning canceled my next appointment because the therapy gets too hard for me to express these feelings (even though I guess this is why I am there). Its so difficult I have to retreat. It makes me ill, angry and depressed for days at a time and I can't function. My T wanted me to get some anti-depressants, but I dont want to take 'em for many reasons. The therapy kills me short term, but not addressing the issue has long term effects. Any advice on what to do?
Another thing - I get so upset sometimes while trying to sleep I have to fight the temptation to scream at the top of my lungs or kick and kick while lying in bed. Anyone else have this problem?
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Also, I canceled my appointment a day after T decided I was depressed enough to warrant anti-depressants, yet he hasn't called me back. I feel weird about that. Like he doesn't care. Thoughts?
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((((Ales)))))
I am not sure how to answer but wanted to give you a hug. x o x o Ami
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Hi Ami - thanks for the hug. much appreciated! Hope all is well with you.
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Hi Ales,
I understand...you are experiencing the contrast between someone treating you (and your feelings) in a respectful, attentive way and what your past was like. The contrast is painful because you are still grieving, processing what the reality of your childhood was. As you unearth it, you are having to grieve.
And you're not finished.
When you're done (grief does end, it's just very hard to know that in the acute stagees--it leaves you changed, but one day, the active grieving-processing will be behind you)--when you're done, you will be able to receive listening and ... just receive it. With peace. With gratitude and comfort. Balanced.
But right now, it is a painful contrast and so it jerks you back to the past, even while at the very same time, it is actually the very thing that will eventually allow you to move on from the past.
I think of it as like surgery that saves your life. NOBODY wants to go through a horror of an operation. We kick and scream and resist...and grieve the necessity of it. But it is necessary. And it is painful. Very. We hate the experience. We fight. But our life force wants us to live and our minds, somewhere deep in, know the unalterable wisdom of undergoing what is necessary. And so we do. We endure it, we recover, and all the while experiencing waves pain, we heal. The pain passes. But it's too slow. It makes us crazy at times. Sometimes we need pain relievers, human or medical, because we can't bear it alone. Other times, we find the pain lifts and we have a few hours or days when it's not right at the very front of our awareness. It recedes to a lower level. Then there's a reminding wave (you're not healed yet). We quiet down again, permit our bodies to heal some more. We start noticing what's outside the window. Weather becomes interesting. The natural world. We find we can walk a while alone. Then, maybe a little setback, we have to lean on someone, a strong arm. Then we walk a little farther the next time, and so on and on.
That's what surgery is, and pain, and healing.
Also, I canceled my appointment a day after T decided I was depressed enough to warrant anti-depressants, yet he hasn't called me back. I feel weird about that. Like he doesn't care.
He should not call you. Unlike your mother, he is respecting you by not calling you. He is not invading you. He is not forcing you. He is recognizing the boundary...that you exist in yourself, for yourself, and that you have the right to choose. Whether he agrees with your decision or not. He knows you are an adult. He believes you have the right to heal or to resist healing. To trust his advice or to decide for yourself that you do not want to take it.
It's not indifference. It's boundaries. They are good.
Hope that helps, just opinions...take anything useful, toss the rest...
Hugs and comfort,
Hops
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Hi,
I think we have to be careful. There is healthy pain, ~ what I think hopalong is saying, but not all pain is healthy, and not all T.s are healthy. Theres too quick a tendency to prescribe drugs. To me they seem terribly intrusive, why mind-alter if you can do without?
I'd say, seek trustworthy situations, but not blind trust.
Also, I canceled my appointment a day after T decided I was depressed enough to warrant anti-depressants, yet he hasn't called me back. I feel weird about that. Like he doesn't care.
I can relate. Its that feeling of being unheard and voiceless, like no response from the universe. This is one of the catch 22s of therapy. You have to be there and pay another session to complain about the last one :?
On the other hand 'doing an exit' is habitually the only way we know to have a voice, and we cant guarantee the other will respond with concerned enquiry. T. ethos is usually not to do that, rightly or wrongly. I have had to do that in many situations to 'dry out' from a crazy-making situation/ relationship.
I'm not saying your T. relationship is that. I'd say something like, what does your intuitive tell you? is this healthy pain, and is your T. the right sort to be able to see you thro the pain to healing, or just to rake over some painful things ................ with ??? ....result.
From my own experience, I'm a therapy sceptic, I dont claim to be a fair witness here, .... more an appalled escapee : ( ~ who still keeps going back to therapy, in fact, the 'in out program' has been the ony way I could manage. it.
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Dear Ales
I am sure that you know my NM is a practicing therapist. *I* have been pushed away rather than toward emotional health by several therapists .Please ask your OWN gut which direction you should go in. Try to honor your instincts.
x o x o Ami
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Hi, Ales.
Without knowing more about you and your relationship with your T. and how long you have been working with him (her?), it's hard to say. But I can relate to a lot of your post, including kicking and screaming under the covers. :shock: (I don't try to supress the feeling anymore. I will kick the covers and...not scream, but growl. DH thinks I'm nuts, but I don't care.)
I found that for me, therapy stirs up a lot of stuff that I have to deal with the rest of the week. It can be really, really unpleasant. I used to say to my T., you stir up a hornet's nest, and then I have to deal with it all week! Unfortunately...or fortunately, depending on how you look at it...it's part of the process. I've been tryng to find ways to deal with it...writing, working out, going for a walk, screaming in my car. My T. also lets me e-mail him in between sessions which is helpful.
I also have a terrible time opening up and talking in T, even after sticking with it for a few years. Have you talked to your T about how difficult it is for you to talk? He may not understand it and attribute your difficulty solely to the depression and not other things you are going through. My old T would get frustrated by my inability to go in and just open up and blab, and attributed it to my depression. He suggested anti d's because he thought it would help me be able to talk more. Like you, I didn't want them and said so. Have you asked your T. about why he's pushing anti d's?
I know it's difficult, but you may have to talk about your difficulty with talking. When you've been brought up to believe that talking (with the hope of being heard) is useless, pointless, or just brings about more grief and drama...and that trusting important people in your life has always been more harmful than helpful...it's really, really difficult. But cancelling your appointment doesn't tell your T. anything about what you're going through. Would it be possible to call him and have a brief conversation about your frustration and WHY you felt you wanted to cancel? If you think you'll clam up, you could write yourself a few notes to keep you on track.
I hope some of this helps. Let us know how you're doing.
Lollie.
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I am sure that you know my NM is a practicing therapist. *I* have been pushed away,rather than toward , emotional health by several therapists
God! Yet this does match my experience. I'd love to know more ami. Part of me still does disbelieve how unhealthy a lot of what I've experienced in therapy has been. And yet, of course it also makes sense, an ideal position for an N. Deep into the person's psyche, and in control, and the person depending on your every word, ugh!!! shudder, ~ yet also fascination ~ from a safe distance.
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Thanks for the comments.
After 14 months, I was able to tell T about my darker feelings, which he's probed before. Mostly pessimism, inferiority, unwillingness to continue to live my life this way, but having no hope for change because of my age, my sadness at watching others move on in work and love and enjoy life, being stuck (unemployed) and left out (dateless) seeing a disturbing pattern of job failures (which I now understand the origin of attracting bully N bosses, but my resume looks like I lack leadership for where I want to go because of what I've been through. Here I try to move on careerwise by creating opportunities for myself, but when handing someone my resume, all they see is the past. An inability to have a relationship at all, I didn't have my first relationship until I was 40. The growth is so slow, I will probably never have a family, which really, really hurts me and leaves me crying myself to sleep at night in despair.
His response feels like he is walking away from my problems and suggesting medication rather understanding. I told him I would try the medication, but after leaving the session, I had second thoughts since I took something similar before and it didn't help - it made it worse and that was a time (when I was 22, when had they addressed the real issues I might have had a chance to get my life on a better path. I really wanted to stick with talk therapy. I'm not going to be able to go back now. I have a lot of wounds that have never been understood by anyone. I tried, I shared and hearing "medication" is the last thing I want. Makes it sounds like I'm the problem again and not my NM. None of these problems have ever been confronted before with anyone. I need him to listen - I know he understands, but I need him to express how he understands it and how I can overcome it. he is also the only person I see on a regular basis. I have no friends to support, I live alone and spend all day looking for a job, so I have to appear "positive" which feels like an unethical Madoff-type ponzi scam right now.
Meanwhile, I have my NM playing cruel, selfish games with me while I actually try to avoid any contact with her.
I was all excited about the new year and now this. Sorry - I got more depressed just writing this, hope it doesnt sound that bad while reading it - except if it does you can see why he recommends anti-d's. Thanks for listening.
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Ales, I found reading your post so honest and touching,
....... and then you said:
hope it doesnt sound that bad while reading it - except if it does you can see why he recommends anti-d's. Thanks for listening.
.. and it nearly made me laugh! sorry, it just was .... well, funny, like 'lets clobber this one on the head'
His response feels like he is walking away from my problems and suggesting medication rather understanding.
....... that sounds about spot on to me. From what you say, your problems are about relationship, so they need relationship to resolve them, drugs would just surppress the problem that is crying out to be heard, understood and resolved, as you say.
... my only suggestion is dont give up, 'knock on every window, leave no stone unturned' till you find what you need, settle for nothing less, is MO.
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Cb- Thanks for your post. You really hit the nail on the head with that stuff. My T mentioned that in 07 he had a series of patients in a very short span of time that committed suicide. So, probably anything that sounds scary to him is something that he is unlikely to ignore, hence the medications. He's a good therapist - I know because I read his books before I met him. It was because of what he was able to explain in his books, that I could identify with.
The hopelessness is really more about the future. I thought I would get married and have a family and since that is never going to happen, I will have to work to support myself and limits my choices and thats making me miserable. I worked for 15 years, got a degree in my field and still I haven;t been able to meet my career goals. I cant imagine living this way anymore.
what is the advice you were hinting at? I want to hear it.
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I liked Hops analogy of surgery ... we don't shy away from pain killers when we have surgery and are healing, and antidepressants in my opinion can be an effective "pain-killer" --- they work differently and on a different time-table, but they also can help us STAND the pain that comes with reflection.
As you guys mostly know, I recently went off antidepressants and feel a lot better .... what I thought was resistant depression was actually side effects from long-term use. However, I do not regret using them. I would never have been able to go back to school, especially the rigorous PhD program, without them. I am hoping now that I have had enough years of effective coping ... with my Nmother, my disturbed daughter, and life in general ... that I have gotten strong enough to go without them. So far so good!
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Ales,
Yes, I do have many ideas for you...but they sound so difficult and even hardhearted if you arent through grieving. Grieving is a very important part of your recovery, and cutting it short doesnt really save you any time in the long run...I remember when my grandfather died--when my grandmother entered her second year of grief, her daughters were plainly impatient. Enough already. A year is long enough--and anyway, they werent happily married so whats the deal??? I think behind that impatience is the fear that the loved one will be stuck in that grief forever (and I guess it can happen), but I think you just have to let your feelings be what they are.
But anyway, with that caveat--many times grief is an in and out process. I have found that there are good days and bad days, days when I can move forward and days when I cant. The trick is to move forward on the days I can and not identify myself with the days that I cant. I will probably grieve the loss of my marriage and home for the rest of my life--not because I miss my husband (he was a pain in the ass), but because I miss the dream that I have of loving someone with my whole heart and making a home with him. In that way, I can really identify with what you are aching for. I have someone special in my life now--more than I had ever hoped for--but I know too much, or I am too cynical, or something and I cant recapture the dream that I had. So, I have the grief and ache for an intact family as well.
One of the first things I would concentrate on, is bringing little bits of beauty into your life...create one corner of your home-room-space with a bit of life and color--maybe a trailing ivy, or a single rose or daisy, a pretty napkin, a tea cup ready for tea, a favorite book or picture. Please dont think such an idea is pollyanna ish...it really, really helps when you are feeling so hopeless to have a spot of beauty to rest your eyes on but to do more than just a corner may feel too overwhelming.
It isnt fair--it isnt fair--it isnt fair that we put on ourselves the restrictions that, because of the damage done in our lives, we must wait to completely heal before we have beauty or joy. You deserve some beautiful music to listen to...a leisurely walk down a city street looking in all the shop windows...a special trip to the window to look at the biggest moon we will have in the sky all year. There are so many things that you can also DO--but for now just make a point of giving yourself sensory gifts every day. A small square of good chocolate, a perfect apple, a free spray of a too-expensive cologne, from the department store, a cozy night with a historical costume drama. This is where I started and it gave me the inspiration to take more and more steps. I can give you some more ideas for those too.
CB
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I have missed your wisdom ((((CB))))). Ami
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Ales - I sympathize with your reluctance to medicate the pain away. My T also suggested using a drug, at least temporarily - so that I could continue to function in my life. She was trying to help with that suggestion but respected a lot of my reasons why I didn't want a reprieve; I wanted to simply face it once and for all and put a stake in the heart of the demons that "haunted" me. I was moving through a lot of intensely painful realizations and memories, pretty quickly. Some days it really WAS overwhelming - but pain is not depression. Grieving, sadness, wishing for what was NOT my experience - is not depression. I didn't take any drugs...
so what we did instead was "pace" the work... I wanted to move full-steam ahead to get through... but my T worked with me to slow down enough to fully digest, address, and let go the worst of the pain about even just parts of some pretty difficult realizations. Keeping a journal let me obsess - intellectually and emotionally - as long as I needed to until things started to make sense and (in most cases) didn't hurt as much anymore. I could scream on paper, with worrying about annoying or upsetting anyone else... I could whine the same laments - over & over - until I decided how to move on. And yes, I'd get up in the middle of the night, go to the journal... and only write down a few words! Then, in the morning, I'd pick up that thread of thought from the new perspective. (And this helped me get past the endless "thinking" or obsessing that sometimes prevents sleep).
Hope this helps.
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Dear Ales
I never used drugs BUT I went through very scary feelings. I used God, if you want to put it that way. I could not have done it alone. Also, I had a support system of people I could call when I was hurting and I could be real.
The feelings of grief, hopelessness, despair that you have when you have an N parent are very,very bad.
x o x o Ami
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Hi Ales,
my experience is what most said here in this post - it's because you're working on issues and keep digging, it gets harder.
And yes i had a kicking and screaming experience last night too...
I think it's a matter of finding the right therapist and not going for the pills.
I am on St John's wort and although I know that I have to do something about it and stop taking them, I still feel there's a difference between them and proper meds. My ex fiance and his sister were and still are taking loads of these things - they didn't want to deal with the issues behind their depression so they were taking them. I remember him calling the first few days he took them saying things like 'oh my God, I can't drive I am spaced out' and when I hear these things, I'd rather be depressed you know? I have a thing that I don't like drugs anyway...
I am scared of going into therapy now (which I will have to once some money kicks in because I can't play doctor to myself anymore) and you are brave to do it - have done it in the past, with different therapists but I think when I go now I am going to hit gold, well, at least it will be gold once I am done with the issues. I guess therapy is like peeling an onion - the closer you peel to the core, the stinkier it gets, the harder you cry and ache.
P.
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It doesnt have to be forever.
CB makes a very good point here - and it's one I wish the medical establishment promoted themselves. There ARE times when a temporary assist from a drug is necessary to rebalance the body, brain or emotions... and if additional lifestyle changes are also pursued & maintained, then it's likely that the drug could gradually be reduced/removed from the mix... and STILL leave you in a state of balance.
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Ales,
The other thing I was thinking today...sometimes you just need to cry and cry and cry. I think that therapists are sometimes afraid of strong emotions (heck, I think just about EVERYBODY is afraid of strong emotions!) Today, my heart ached so that I just cried my guts out, and the whole time I kept soothing myself: its okay, this is only for a short time, this pain is not forever. The crying helped get the pain out and the soothing made me less afraid to do that.
Its okay to cry. There's nothing about it that is dysfunctional and you really wont cry for the rest of your life. Your life is going to be beautiful and fulfilling and good, Ales. You just need to finish mourning the expectations of what your life would be so you can throw your arms out to the goodness that your life will be.
Love
CB
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CB,
You're amazing...Good.
And dear Ales, CB is right.
I not only cried, I wailed and cried, sometimes I wallowed, wailed and cried in the fetal position. Now I just cry as the occasion calls for it.
xoxox
tt
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CB, when I was doing my first student practicum (doing therapy), I once told my supervisor I was scared of crying along with my patient (don't remember what the issue was now). He just said, "What's wrong with crying with them?" That question stumped me. After that I just made sure I had a box of tissues in the room. I was incredibly blessed to have a wise supervisor that "gave me permission" to cry with my patients right off the bat. Actually, once a therapist gives themselves permission to cry, the urge is not nearly as overwhelming. Sometimes I cry with patients, but am not tempted to just have a cry-fest.
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It is nice when people let you cry and are not afraid. My guitar teacher is wonderful that way. He just sits there while I sob--no trying to fix or doing anything other than allowing it.
It is something really different for me to experience--very powerful. x o x o Ami
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Hi, Ales.
I was just re-reading this thread and wanted to pull out this quote:
His response feels like he is walking away from my problems and suggesting medication rather understanding.
I just wanted say that you can have both. Both meds (if you feel okay with it) and the understanding part that comes from talk therapy. Lots of people find the combination of medication and talk to be helpful. It's not really an either/or thing.
I've been thinking about you. How are you getting along?
Lollie.
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Hi- Thanks for the comments everyone.
I am not sure where I am headed right now, but will be ending therapy on tuesday. I don't want medication (I just dont think it will help), talking isn't helping and the expense of therapy has become too much. It feels a little like I am "quitting" and I have issues around that word.... but I try to remember what someone said that I'm not quitting on myself, just this particular course of help.