Voicelessness and Emotional Survival Message Board
Voicelessness and Emotional Survival => Voicelessness and Emotional Survival Message Board => Topic started by: JustKathy on February 23, 2010, 06:25:21 PM
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I recently read a comment on a site about N mothers that talked about N abuse being cumulative. It basically stated that Ns often dish out their abuse as minor events that seem like "parent/child issues," especially to the outside world . . . the type of things, that on their own, no one would consider abusive. We often don't realize until our teens that we are being abused, because it takes years for these small events to build to a head.
I was recently watching "Celebrity Rehab," and during one of the counseling sessions, one of the guys (a reality star, can't recall his name), said that he had unresolved anger towards his abusive mother, and cited a painful experience with his eye glasses. When he was a child, his mother refused to pay the extra money for wire rims, and forced him to wear the cheap plastic frames, which caused him to be bullied in school. When I heard that, I sat with my mouth open. My mother did that to me, and I had forgotten it. When I was 12, and needed glasses. M refused to let me have the wire rims, and forced me to wear the cheap plastic cat-eye glasses. I too, was picked on in school. I stopped wearing the glasses, and spent years walking around squinting. This may be why I had forgotten this episode. I resolved it in my own way.
The reason I bring this up, is that once I was reminded of this, I started to remember other small events in my childhood, that at the time confused me, but didn't feel like abuse. And none of these things would seem like abuse to other people. If you told someone about the eyeglass thing, the average person would simply assume that the parent didn't have the money, when in fact it was a deliberate attempt to humiliate the child.
I wonder if this is a conscious effort on the part of the N parent, to make the abuse appear benign, and spread it out over several years. It makes them look like normal, even good parents, while our souls are slowly being destoyed.
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The reason I bring this up, is that once I was reminded of this, I started to remember other small events in my childhood, that at the time confused me, but didn't feel like abuse. And none of these things would seem like abuse to other people. If you told someone about the eyeglass thing, the average person would simply assume that the parent didn't have the money, when in fact it was a deliberate attempt to humiliate the child.
.. isnt this the key to it, its the intention behind the action. No-one else would see it, but you feel it because you're on the recieving end of it, and its all in the context as well as the contrasts.... the so subtle build up. And how it can be at once subtle yet blatent, but unquestioned.
I wonder if this is a conscious effort on the part of the N parent, to make the abuse appear benign, and spread it our for several years. It makes them look like normal, even good parents, while our souls are slowly being destoyed.
...... and this is what I've noticed, its the hidden underlying agenda, its not an exaggeration. Yet, do you find it still hard to believe in some ways? I do. Whether its conscious on thier part, I've often wondered this, about Ns as well as many other dysfunctional types. Or is it a type of 'optical neglect'? .... like thier focus is elswhere, and that is still a choice on their part.
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Whether its conscious on thier part, I've often wondered this, about Ns as well as many other dysfunctional types. Or is it a type of 'optical neglect'? .... like thier focus is elswhere, and that is still a choice on their part.
That's a really good observation. My NM may not have been thinking about playground bullying when she made me wear those glasses. Perhaps it was simply a matter of me not being good enough for the more expensive frames. That's another way of sending a hurtful message to the child. There are hundreds of nice frames here, but you aren't worth the money, so you get the cheap ones. The bullying at school may have just been icing on the cake.
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I do think it's a conscious attempt to disguise their abusive behaviors, but who knows what's going on in their cruel heads?
As a kid, I did TRY to express what my mom was doing to me. But, it seemed benign to the outsider. A 12 year old's "my mom gets mad at me" or "My mom doesn't let me do what I want" truly meant "My mom is abusing and torturing me." To the adults, they thought I was just complaining about regular discipline or my mom's concerns. How was I supposed to know what narcissism was or how to explain it?
As I got older, I pushed the memories aside and started to idolize my NM. After all, everyone else thought she was great and nobody was validating my painful experience. I developed Stockholm Syndrome traits towards my NM, until my therapist pointed out she was a narcissist.
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I think narcissism is a problem that can't possibly be identified by isolated behaviors. Its the whole pattern that adds up to N. It's the excessiveness. It's the persistence.
If a parent has a problem taking the child's perspective about cat-eye glasses, and it is a lapse in an otherwise good relationship, not a whole lot of harm done. If this is one piece in a larger puzzle of the parent being unempathetic, blaming the child for having normal feelings (like wanting to be accepted by peers), making the parent the center of the universe ... well, then the cat-eye glasses are an indicator of an important and painful relationship failure.
That's the awful thing about emotional abuse --- it's NOT about lapses in judgment, momentarily snapping at a child, or other every-once-in-a-while mistakes. Everybody does those things with their kids (at least, everybody I know does). It's the PATTERN. It's the lack of understanding over a long period of time ... the guilt for having feelings, having your own perspective, having your own opinion, having needs. No wonder it's so hard for CPS to detect it, no wonder its so hard for even those closest to the family to see it or report it. It's about the pattern.
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Kathy,
I think this is why we spend so much of our lives thinking WE have the problem. I believed what NM believed about me. So I felt awkward. She projected her feelings onto me and I felt the way she made me feel. It took so many bad things to get me to where I realized I was not the one who fit her mold.
Love, Beth
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JustKathy,
This is a very good observation. I never thought of it that way. But it is so true. One incident is one incident. No big deal, a misunderstanding on the road of life. We can count numerous incidents with people in our lives.
Nolongeraslave,
You're right. When you are a child, with no knowledge of a personality disorder, under the influence of an adult (or two if you count your dad who never disagreed with NM), you have no power. This was your normal. You grew up knowing that you are worthless, your opinions didn't matter, your interpretation of the situation was incorrect. You believe you are the crazy one.
What sticks with me, even 40 years later, are the looks I received from other adults in my life. I remember when they looked at me after NM had made a comment to or about me in their presence, when they asked me a question and NM took over and put the words in my mouth, when NM disciplined me when they were there. These adults looked at me with just pity. I took that look as the other adult thought I was pitiful, which made me feel even worse about myself. With my adult knowledge I now know that they had pity for what I was going through.
Recently a neighbor of my family when I was young sent my NM a picture that she had saved of me when I was about 8 years old. I am grateful to this lady that she even thought enough about me to save that picture.
Logy
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JustKathy-
Yes I can see it. The complete emotional ignorance of an NM. If you were getting teased in school, this seems like an issue a parent could use to teach a kid empowerment. The money is not really the issue at hand... If you're parents didn't have the money, it could have been a moment to learn about saving money, or getting an early bday present if money was that tight etc... Bullying at school is so serious, and can affect learning. This is up the ally with emotional neglect in my mind. How hard that must have been to be bullied, then go home to a parent who ignored it. It's almost like a snowball effect, learning that it is okay to let people push around without even trying to take action.
I know what you mean about having memories pop up later in life and figure out something wasn't right. The cumulative effect mentioned here is ONLY experienced by the target, so we just have to trust our feelings.... It won't be seen by a team of people who will say anything that can make a difference. Memories like these have been popping up for me daily for months now.
Thx for sharing. I still don't trust my memory, as I was taught not to trust that. I've learned that I have a really good memory, and I don't pretend to remember when I don't. Sometimes I just think, am I just crazy?? Sometimes I can't even confidently say one word, without questioning myself. It's getting better though as I get older, and the further away I get from my NM
swimmer
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The postings on this thread remind me of when I first went back to school and started learning the techniques of cognitive therapy. My professor had everybody in the class start keeping "thought records" --- when you had a particular, strong emotion, you started writing down the thoughts you were having at the time, and you kept digging deeper asking "and, why do I think that?" until you hit bedrock, an "absolute" statement that absolutely hit home and that you absolutely believed was true. Well, in doing the thought record one day when I was feeling really down, I came to the "bedrock" thought "I AM NOT CAPABLE OF RUNNING MY OWN LIFE." And I knew in my heart that this thought was driving so many bad emotions that were in turn running my life. And I also knew just reading it out loud that in terms of truth and honesty, it was BS, it was ridiculous. I had not (at that time) had a real career, but I had had the almost total responsibility of a big household and four children, not to mention myself and my husband that I cared for, for way over a decade. For me to think that I was not capable of running my own life was ... stupid. Stuff started to turn around for me when I saw that statement written down on my thought record.
THe weird thing was I was not the only woman in that class to have that underlying belief. There was another midlife woman in the class, who had been a successful attorney and had gotten tired of practicing law and was going back to school for yet another degree, that had uncovered that same thought inside herself.
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I have seen my aunt and uncle react when their daughter is being bullied; they discuss it between themselves (Mother & Father). They discus it with their daughter. They acknowledge that it is happening. They even discuss it with the rest of the family and pretty much everyone else in the neighborhood. They shelter their child from the situation to the degree that the child wants to be protected from the situation.
They make a point of knowing what is happening in the child's world. The childs world is part of their world.
They also encourage the daughter to participate in numerous skill-building classes, sports music etc. so she has the opportunity to make other friends elsewhere and is not dependant on the bully circle as the only peer group.
The thing is any kid can be bullied just for being younger or any random reason but that is not how kids experience it, kids experience it as fear and ostracism, distraction from productive learning experiences and as an internalized message.
I know my niece, she is just a normal little girl, yet she was bullied. Her parents acknowledge that she is not talented in everything but they have made darn sure that she has experienced so many things that she has found many things that she is good at and can excel in.
Kids with supportive parents can survive bulling without internalizing the experience but kids without supportive parents internalize the message even further that the kid is “unlovable, unacceptable, weak etc.”
For kids with nar-parents, bullies just reinforce the self-loathing/self-neglect that was taught by the parents.
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My mom would never stick up for me.
Abuse? I remember once the family was on vacation. Four of us in a sedan in the late 60s. I was a talkative kid maybe nine years old. I guess I was bugging my mom, tapping her on the shoulder. She said, "If you do this one more time to me......" She grabbed my finger, tapped it on her shoulder and then hauled off and slapped me! My brother and dad were appaled!! That always seemed so extreme to me!
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Kids with supportive parents can survive bulling without internalizing the experience but kids without supportive parents internalize the message even further that the kid is “unlovable, unacceptable, weak etc.”
For kids with nar-parents, bullies just reinforce the self-loathing/self-neglect that was taught by the parents.
My NM definitely knew that being bullied in school would reinforce what she had taught me - that I was worthless. She would actually set me up to get bullied in school, dressing me in geeky clothing, forcing me to join the chess club, turning me into a nerd that kids would pick on. I fought back, started buying my own clothes, excelled at tennis, and became accepted with the more popular crowd. So she sabotaged me. She would give me permission to go to a school dance, even buy me a dress, but on the night of the dance, when my friends came to pick me up, she would throw a tantrum and claim that I was never given permission to go. She would humiliate me in front of my friends, which would be the talk of the school the next day. She did this over and over. Every time she said I could go on a date, the minute the boy came to pick me up, she threw the tantrum. She went to great lengths to sabotage me. I think one of the reasons that she wanted me to be bullied, was that she was bullied herself. When I started to become popular, she went into a jealous rage. She simply couldn't stand the thought that I had it better than she did.
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As a kid, I did TRY to express what my mom was doing to me. But, it seemed benign to the outsider. A 12 year old's "my mom gets mad at me" or "My mom doesn't let me do what I want" truly meant "My mom is abusing and torturing me." To the adults, they thought I was just complaining about regular discipline or my mom's concerns.
That's it, exactly. If I told a guidance counselor, "my mom makes me wear the geeky glasses," "or my mom punished me for something I didn't do," "or my mom rifled through my dresser," the look I would get was that of so what, you had a normal disagreement with your mom. Your mom went through your dresser? She's just being a good parent and making sure you aren't in trouble with drugs. Seems innocent enough, certainly not abusive. I knew that I was being abused, but to the outside world, it was normal parent-child conflict that all adolescents experience.
If I had walked into my counselor's office with bruises all over my body, they would have seen abuse. But N abuse is almost like working on a wood carving. It takes a long time. You whittle away at it, a piece at a time, until finally, your work is complete. That's what M did to me. It took her 15 years of slowly chipping away before I finally realized, she's not being mean to me, she's ABUSING me.
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Kids with supportive parents can survive bulling without internalizing the experience but kids without supportive parents internalize the message even further that the kid is “unlovable, unacceptable, weak etc.”
For kids with nar-parents, bullies just reinforce the self-loathing/self-neglect that was taught by the parents.
My NM definitely knew that being bullied in school would reinforce what she had taught me - that I was worthless. She would actually set me up to get bullied in school, dressing me in geeky clothing, forcing me to join the chess club, turning me into a nerd that kids would pick on. I fought back, started buying my own clothes, excelled at tennis, and became accepted with the more popular crowd. So she sabotaged me. She would give me permission to go to a school dance, even buy me a dress, but on the night of the dance, when my friends came to pick me up, she would throw a tantrum and claim that I was never given permission to go. She would humiliate me in front of my friends, which would be the talk of the school the next day. She did this over and over. Every time she said I could go on a date, the minute the boy came to pick me up, she threw the tantrum. She went to great lengths to sabotage me. I think one of the reasons that she wanted me to be bullied, was that she was bullied herself. When I started to become popular, she went into a jealous rage. She simply couldn't stand the thought that I had it better than she did.
That's terrible, JustKathy. I sometimes wonder if N moms secretly wanted their kids to be bullied, no matter what they say on the outside.
My school was known as one of the "best schools", so my mom loved it when people said "Wow, you live in that rich area?" She told me to just ignore the bullying or she wouldn't believe me. She would say, "You make me depressed when you talk about those kids! Don't talk about that to me." Hello? How about how I felt? Why was it about her? I went through having stuff thrown at me, being verbally abused, and receiving racist comments. How could you be comfortable knowing that your kid is going through that?
She didn't care that I was crying frequently, getting panic attacks and was isolated. She even told me,The kids are pointing and laughing at you!" She wanted to me to dress preppy, so she would use the "Nobody likes you be/c you don't dress like how I want you to."
I would beg her to go to another school, but she said we had to live in a rich community. She would say "But my friends are so impressed with me!" Narcissists don't want to be "poor" or "middle-class." When we finally left that area, my mom would pretend that she left b/c of me. Bullshit! She left, because she lost her popularity amongst her social circle. If she really cared about me, she would have took me out of that school ages ago. I had to go to that school for 4-5 years. Again why would you want your kid to go through that for years?
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A recent scandal was exposed in a very affluent community of my state. Involving high school senior basketball players who, according to the school, participated in "bullying". The press requested more information, stating the "Freedom of Information Act". We are finding out that this school suppressed information that actually involved criminally deviant behavior.
There is so much more related to this story. But what I see related to many of the posts here is the narcissism within a community, the toleration of abuse, the entitlement given to those that bring prestige to a group, the willingness to ignore the abused in favor of the abusers who project the image the community values.
Bullying can be an entire thread unto itself. But what I get from this thread is that bullying is just one aspect of this cumulative effect. And it can come from an individual. Or a community.
Logy
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I completely agree that rich communities can be more concerned about their reputation than the ones who are suffering (at least in my experience). Admitting that bullying happens taints their prestigious reputation.
Like narcissists, some of these communities punish you for being yourself or being different. I got the impression that it was "allowed" to bully people that didn't want to be like everyone else, or that people being themselves deserved to bullied.
I recently wrote a letter to my middleschool principal about what I went through(bullying, sexual abuse, and narcissism), and how its horrific that he and the faculty ignored everything and blamed me for it. I'm assuming it had an effect on him, because the school NOW takes bullying and students' emotional health seriously.
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I did the same once, NLAS...to a school where I had been bullied and my D went through the same thing.
Being still upset by it, I wrote the letter anonymously.
In the next school Bulletin, they included a little sidebar about forgiveness.
Felt pretty inadequate to me...
Hops
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I recently read a comment on a site about N mothers that talked about N abuse being cumulative. It basically stated that Ns often dish out their abuse as minor events that seem like "parent/child issues," especially to the outside world . . . the type of things, that on their own, no one would consider abusive. We often don't realize until our teens that we are being abused, because it takes years for these small events to build to a head.
You've made a lot of good observations Kathy. I believe the "minor events" can add up to damage just as significant as the more obvious forms of abuse. This was how things worked in my family. There was not a lot of overt obvious abuse, just hundreds of small insults, dismissals, and other mistreatments of the offspring. Neither of my parents had the emotional sensitivity to see these incidents as abuse. As long as they paid for food, clothing, and shelter, they assumed they had the job of parenting covered. It took me into my 40's to really understand the underlying pattern. Children do not grow up healthy with only material support.
I've seen some research that suggests 80% of interactions in a relationship have to be positive or the relationship is in danger of failing. In my FOO, particularly with my father, I'd say 60-80% of interactions are at least mildly negative. I had a hard time figuring out why I could hardly stand to be around him, until I started to see the cumulative effect of covert abuse. Since children aren't able to just leave the relationship with the parents, I suspect they just get numbed to the small abuses. It may not feel good, but it feels normal, and it's associated with at least some level of material security.
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But what I get from this thread is that bullying is just one aspect of this cumulative effect.
Yeah, for me it was one of many things that NM did to me, and at the time, I didn't see it as an intentional thing. But in hindsight, it probably was. In most cases, the bullying was a secondary consequence of another act of abuse, like sabotaging my dates . . . tell me that I could out with someone, then claim that she never gave me permission when the boy came to pick me up. With that, she was trying to gaslight me. So there the was humiliation of being embarrassed in front of my date, and the gaslighting, with the bullying being the final link in the chain that would come after word got back to the kids at school.
I agree with nolongeraslave, that NMs secretly want their kids to be bullied. NMs must go crazy when their kids are at school, where they can't be controlled. They're hanging with friends, having fun, being independent. If school is a pleasant experience, then we have an escape from their abuse. But if they can encourage bullying, we lose that escape.
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This may be a little "off topic" in a sense, yet today while I was taking a shower (things tend to dawn on me in the shower)....well I remembered how my parents both my mother and my father would speak for me always interjecting their own thoughts and their control if someone ever tried to talk to me directly my parents would answer for me. I wasn't allowed to even experience my own thoughts.
I know that parents do this sometimes for young children sort of, if the kid is being really shy or something. But my parents did this all the time, to the point where I think as an adult I still have a habit of being sort of quiet because of it.
It was a way that I was literally voiceless. But also I didn't get the chance to practice all the interactions. By doing that my parents were being controlling.
My parents also always had excuses for not involving me in "extra curricular activities".
Growing up I never thought this was intentional, I really believed their excuses, but looking back it was either intentional or "subconscious/unconscious" somehow, but it was an expression of their own (my parents) psychological issues.
I see even more how my parents did not allow me to be my own person.
I have even seen some of this as an adult. My mother (when I was in contact with her) had a next-door-neighbor in their neighborhood who really liked me, shared interests with me and the neighbor wanted to invite me over to visit with her.
The thing is my mother interceded in this process and neglected to tell me things about the invitation to go over and visit the neighbor. It's a minor thing really that I never visited the neighbor but at the same time it is an example of my mother's behavior even as an adult of how she would discourage me from having positive relationships with other people.
The times when I did develop a positive relationship with someone my mother would be jealous on some level I think (not obviously) but passively and covertly jealous.
I'm not a psychiatrist so I really don't understand this but I believe that my mother wanted me/wants me to experience a loneliness that she once experienced herself. The thing is my mother is in a nice cushy place in life right now. She would still wish for me to be lonely.
It is really weird.
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I wonder if this is a conscious effort on the part of the N parent, to make the abuse appear benign, and spread it out over several years. It makes them look like normal, even good parents, while our souls are slowly being destroyed.
Yeah, they do try to present themselves as being normal/good parents don't they?
Abuse I think in it's essential nature is somehow 1) secretive and 2) inaccurate.
It really takes a knowledgeable person to see though their explanations for their behavior, to see the underlying issues.
And always they have an insincere excuse and explanation. That is the other thing about my NM her excuses although sound justifiable are always so insincere and not thoughtful. I have never experienced my mother communicate to me thoughtfully, as if she actually attempted to consider me.
And that is the result of the fact that she never has thoughtfully considered me. But I have moved on past her and just have me to deal with now.
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Helen,
I understand what you are saying about the voicelessness, Nparents speaking for you. Whenever an adult talked directly to me, even as my mouth was open and the first words spoken, NM took over - "Oh, she thinks this and this and this." Burned in my memory is the look of pity I received from the other adult. How I wish someone would have said "Sorry, NM, I addressed my comment to Logy."
I have always had difficulties with relationships. Love and friend relationships. I didn't understand why for a long time. But with my understanding now of Narcissism, I realize that any good relationship I had, NM continually bombarded me with comments about how that person didn't treat me right. It didn't matter if it was my best friend from high school, my dad, my husband, my daughter, my coworker. I see now it was just an attempt by her to make HER the only person in the world who was interested in me and to isolate me so she would have ultimate control. So ultimately I pushed those people away. The ONE relationship that made me question NM's opinion and led me to try to figure out what was wrong was the relationship with my daughter. I loved her with all my being and did everything I could to be a good mother. And when NM isn't in the picture, we have a great nurturing relationship. When she was a child I loved her unconditionally, supported her, guided her, disciplined her and she learned to express herself, develop self-control, and occasionally say I was her best friend. When she was a child NM did her best to convince her that I was selfish, I didn't have her best interests in mind, NM was the only one who REALLY cared about her.
My daughter and I had some difficult times due to this manipulation. But I wasn't going to lose THIS relationship! Now my daughter sees through the manipulation, the bullying. And NM doesn't control our relationship any more. We have our own relationship, good times, bad times, but it is ours!!!
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Logy, you just described my life story. I'm glad your daughter and you have a good relationship and didn't let NM win!
While my N-mom will NEVER admit this, I do think she sabotaged all of my friendships and relationships. She wanted me to be HERS only. She would nag me for not having enough friends, BUT break all of my relationships up the next day. A strange woman.
She's pressuring me to get married and acting like it's the end of the world that I'm still single (this may look normal to the outsider), but the fact is this is just a ploy to control me, keep me on the edge, and cause self-doubt. She's been giving me toxic advice to ask men on first dates how much money they make, talk about marriage and tell them to talk to my mom right away. No thanks.
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Nolongeraslave,
Good for you!!!!!!! You recognize the abuse. I also was nagged because I was not social enough. When I tried to be social I was criticized. I didn't say the right thing, I chose the wrong person. I embarrassed the family by my reaction socially. My social skills were constantly berated. Funny, though, I realize now that NM has absolutely NO social skills. She projected her weakness onto me. And I lived it for decades.
NM would explain to people that I was single because I was too picky.
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We have our own relationship, good times, bad times, but it is ours!!!
This makes a lot of sense to me Logy, this feeling you are expressing of having that unique important relationship between you and your daughter and that it belongs to the two of you.
Rather then the relationship between you and your daughter belonging to your narcissistic mother.