Voicelessness and Emotional Survival Message Board
Voicelessness and Emotional Survival => Voicelessness and Emotional Survival Message Board => Topic started by: Meh on February 27, 2010, 05:45:14 PM
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Anyone have examples of how your own rebelliousness was ultimately good for you and your "inner child".
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It depends what sort of behaviour you mean Helen. If rebelling means going against the social grain, it depends on what the motivation is. Can you describe a little more?
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No, I don't have one specific behaviour in mind. It's open, without a lot of parameters.
Mainly I'm thinking about when a person looks back and sees that the rebelliousness was in hindsight a positive experience when the rebelliousness was a needed experience to go through in order to evolve etc.
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Not sure I've been that rebellious Helen. I've always been pretty firm about not doing what I don't want to do (and what others have wanted me to do: family, school, work). Maybe it's an INTJ thing. If it's not logical, I probably won't do it. I don't care who I might annoy/upset, if it doesn't make sense (and it doesn't look in any way enjoyable or interesting), I won't hesitate to say 'no'. Some people think that's odd. Some people want to please other people and fit in. Fair enough.
I reckon rebelliousness can be a positive experience, particularly if it's unsual behaviour for you. The question is, what is anyone rebelling against? When you run out of things to rebel against, how can you be rebellious? Maybe you can rebel against death, or life?
Sorry helen, don't think I have helped any there and I may have gone off at a tangent to what you intended.
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Sorry helen, don't think I have helped any there and I may have gone off at a tangent to what you intended.
Ahh, that's alright, how you doin' today?
The question is, what is anyone rebelling against? When you run out of things to rebel against, how can you be rebellious? Maybe you can rebel against death, or life?
I think that the type of rebelliousness I'm talking about is along the lines of the inner child fighting for it's life. Yes, the inner-child fighting against it's death.
I sort of see children of Nar-people as being like puppies that were neglected and mistreated, they have quirks now and maybe the puppies have become neurotic or something. There are beaten down puppy-mill dogs that don't ever swim in the lake or play fetch and then there is the other extreme wild wolves.
Now I don't exactly see the rebelliousness as becoming a feral animal but I see it as more of some middle of the ground place. Maybe....
If I was a neglected puppy mill puppy and was released... I would have to learn how to relate to some of my natural instincts again, I would have to bite sometimes, maybe just bark other times.
If that makes any sense.
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Hey, thanks and hugs to all of you out there for listening to me. I think what I'm getting at does have something to do with the inner-child thing.
Years ago I use to laugh when people would talk about the "inner child" I didn't get it, it sounded "wimpy".
After posting on this board off and on for quite a while the concept of inner child is becoming more and more REAL to me and less "wimpy".
I think I'm going to try to force myself away from the board and do some inner-child work etc.
Thanks y'all.......
If anyone has suggestions about books or resources related to inner-child work let me know!
I'm not going to a therapist. I'm just going to see where I end up on my own.
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Hey Helen, thanks for asking, I'm pretty good today :) (well, yesterday now, it's late here).
Biting sometimes, barking other times, yes that makes sense. My inner child feels somewhat integrated now. (Not that I like talking about an 'inner child' too much; I would more talk about certain reactions and how I'm being during those reactions - but that's just me and how I think.) Mostly, in tough times, life requires barking it seems, although sometimes you have to bite - neglected puppy or loved puppy - life is not a bed of roses.
I remember times when I have bitten and that was not necessary, but they were very few. Nowadays I don't bite at all, not in a rebellious way. I behave mainly like an adult with boundaries; something that some other people appear to find shocking. I can understand why though.
Just seen your post Helen. I don't think inner child work is wimpy at all. If it works for you, it works. I just don't like the separation of parts of myself, if that makes sense. Good luck!
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Helen,
I would like to talk about rebelliousness. I think this is a great topic for me because my siblings and I are studies in rebelliousness! :)
All three of us were the perfect children, in a perfect family (so everyone thought). But as each of us reached 12-13 years old we began experimentation that led to destructive behavior. So as teens we really, really struggled. And NM struggled back, not to help us, but to maintain that perfect Stepford family. Which led us to more rebellion. I probably did the best - most of my rebellion was secret from my parents and I maintained good grades and was active in extracurricular activities. But everything NM told me to not do, I did. My brothers didn't do as well, completely withdrew from the family, sullen, alcohol, drugs, run-ins with the law, running away from home.
One time I sneaked out after everyone had gone to bed and went driving around all night with friends. I wrote a letter to an out-of-state friend and told her about it. Silly me, before I could send it, NM found it and read it (it was in a school folder that NM went through). So I got called into the living room by NM and dad and was talked to about it. While dad tried to discuss it, tell me how wrong it was, NM sobbed the entire time and all she could say was "How could you do this to me?"
All of this I know now were DESPERATE cries for someone, NM, co-dad, anyone, to pay attention to us. Not pay attention to us in an N way, but to see us as the individuals we were.
Fast forward to now. My adult rebellion against NM - her garden is immaculately manicured. My garden is wild, things grow freely and in whatever direction it chooses. NM throws everything away - family momentos, yearbooks. I save anything that has any emotional connection for me. NM's house is spotless. I would rather read a book than clean.
That's how I interpret rebellion.
Logy
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The inner child....
well - in my case, it was sorta like someone hit the pause button on the movie of "me"... there was a whole me that really wasn't part of my understanding, feeling, sensation of "me". I had to get re-acquanted with that me; had to earn her trust, too... had to prove I wasn't "one of them" to her... because that part of me knew how to hide very, very well - she could simply become invisible and "stop being" through hibernation, going dormant... and she knows how to cause me trouble, if I ignore her!!
I did find ways for her to exist - now. Ways to finish growing up; to heal from her hurts... to restart her from where/when the pause button was pushed.
Hell yes - she's what would be considered "rebellious" by those who were made uncomfortable by her impertinant observations of an inconvenient, yet undeniable truth. Because of her inpenetrable walls of defense - I do X this way because it's the way I do it, even if there is a better way - she was labelled hard-headed & stubborn; rebellious. There were some adults then - and people now - who understand and appreciate that aspect of her. People who helped.
There is a literature and even language for talking about one's inner child. Some of it "fits" for me - but much of it didn't. Found I had to make up my own terms, descriptions, explanations... though not everything about a relationship with one's self is explainable. (I think it's sorta like "twin-language"). Inner child work is quite delicate and challenging - but just as rewarding as raising a child, too. Have some kindness and openness for whatever your inner child is "bringing up" right now... listen to her story. This path of work is immensely useful and powerful.
Related to it, is the body of information about attachment theory - how the mother/child bond affects one's Self, personality, etc. If you have trouble looking for inner child stuff, try getting there through attachment theory.
One of the books I started with, was "Healing the Child Within" - Charles L. Whitfield. I started with a therapist, which I think was important for me. A mom-substitute to explore my relationship with Nmom; to hold my hand and tell me it was OK - what I was feeling was natural; normal. I don't think I could've faced everything without that encouragement & safe person. It was important to me, to have someone to help me process all the stuff I was discovering about myself. I didn't quite believe what I was telling myself, ya know??? (oh... the power of conditioning and the politics of power in a parent-child relationship!)
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Quote from children's book:
"Grown-ups never understand anything for themselves, and it is tiresome for children to be always and forever explaining things to them. ~Saint-Exupéry, The Little Prince, 1943 "
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Ok, Three more...
"Maybe we should develop a Crayola bomb as our next secret weapon. A happiness weapon. A beauty bomb. And every time a crisis developed, we would launch one. It would explode high in the air - explode softly - and send thousands, millions, of little parachutes into the air. Floating down to earth - boxes of Crayolas. And we wouldn't go cheap, either - not little boxes of eight. Boxes of sixty-four, with the sharpener built right in. With silver and gold and copper, magenta and peach and lime, amber and umber and all the rest. And people would smile and get a little funny look on their faces and cover the world with imagination."
~Robert Fulghum
"When you're green you're growing, and when you're ripe you start to rot." ~Ray Kroc
"Adults are obsolete children. " ~Dr. Seuss
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Sounds like spring is in the air... and you're about to embark on a personal growth spurt!
(and yes - much of the ills in the world can be cured simply by using the "big box" of crayons! LOL!)
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Everyone has taught me something today. Inner child. Something I had heard of but really had no understanding of. Teartracks, I had to read your post several times. First, in my usual way, scanning each sentence for nouns and verbs that give me the jist at the fastest rate possible. Hmmm, couldn't comprehend. So I paused, read it again, a little slower. Caught onto this as being something from deep in you. So I walked away for 5 minutes, came back to give it my time and undivided attention. The image of your inner child, curled tightly in that room, no recognition of you, touched a place deep in me. I don't know what that place is. I don't know what I'll find there. All I know is that I need to investigate, search, learn.
Logy
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I think some parents of teenagers think their kids are rebelling... but they are just trying on "different coats of life". An N parent will take the teenager's experience of trying on new ways of living personally, and call this rebellion. My inner child is being true to myself, which can feel like a rebellion because I was punished for being true to myself. Whenever I've been myself, my NM calls me a teenager.... Hello??? Get a grip woman, it's a GOOD thing to be separate, especially from you.
Swimmer
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Hey tt:
I brought someone with me to visit "little Helen". A friend of the family that she met when she was about 12-14 yrs old and trusted and loved. When I saw little Helen she was about 5 yrs old though. So the friend of the family came back in time with me, and she also had to come visit from Heaven because she is deceased but she is the one that little Helen asked for and felt the most safe with.
Little Helen wanted to see that person more then she wanted to see me (Big Helen). I told little Helen that I missed the deceased woman also and I hugged little Helen.
~ H.
Good luck tt & thank you for sharing...
Maybe you can bring a snuggly satin blanket with you to put over the little hibernating tt, and some giraffe pillows or some security object that you had and maybe you can paint the walls of the maze your favorite color as a kid rather then gray and wait for her to wake up or talk to her like she is in a coma but can still hear? Or maybe hum to her instead of talking.
Maybe you could bring her a favorite toy or teddybear and just pile a nest of nice safe security objects around her so when she wakes up she will be around familiar safe things?
My uneducated guess is that we have to figure out what makes the "little us" feel safe and start there.
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"uneducated guesses" are often intuition...
You asked, initially, for examples of the inner child bursting out and actually being "good" in the long run. Wish I had one - and maybe I do and it just hasn't occurred to me - but, for the most part these were more self-sabotaging acts than anything else, for me. These little "me"s can be very scared, very angry and very, very confused. They can distrust all kindness because they've learned through abuse that it usually disguises a put-down, a kick or slap, or it extends the abuser's control over one. In turn, those kinds of "leaks" - where the inner child sneaks out & acts out - can confuse people we interact with in the here & now, because the circumstances & people are completely different, yet there is something that clicks into the experience of the inner child, who now feels the freedom and motivation to finally express herself.
I'm sorry that I'm being so cryptic here. I think you're looking for real stories with the real circumstances, narrative and effects... and mine is long. I've also put all those journals away (there were 16, I think), thinking that I don't need to touch them or write more... as I have better communication (most days) with my inner child - Twiggy - and we've fused or reintegrated with each other. I could be wrong. At one point, I deleted all the posts here with the story in it. At some point, perhaps I'll re-write it in the Member's stories - but it will be different, as my perspective has changed.
tt:
there IS hope for communicating with your 2 yr old. She is simply less verbal or cognitive than you are now and won't respond to all that "noise". Try non-verbal images: like the blanket that Helen recommended - smooth her hair, rub her back, hold & rock her... and don't expect her to instantly verbalize her story to you. She might be still quite hurt about her abandonment; but you'll know that she's developing some trust of you, if that little hand reaches out to pat or caress you affectionately. Right now, she only knows the safety of the maze. It'll take some time to show her she can be safe in the sunshine... and she'll begin to wake up.
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Swimmer
My inner child is being true to myself, which can feel like a rebellion because I was punished for being true to myself.
Exactly. Punished for being different to them! Maybe because I did that young, it gave me the confidence to do it as I acquired adult powers too, to stand up against bullies, to know my rights etc.
My memory of being a child comes to me only in dreams and very rarely (but when it does, it's very important to me). I have no intention of attempting to connect with an 'inner child' that is separate to who I am now. I might connect with memories, but to treat those memories as another person......what effect does that have in/on the brain?
What comes up on the MRI when you're attempting to do that? How do you know that you're not 'creating', rather than 'remembering'? In other words, for mental stability and truth-seeking (if that's your bag), I'm not sure it's necessarily a helpful thing. Does anyone have any data/research on this work? I'd be interested.
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All i could find is point 38 on this page: http://www.stopbadtherapy.com/myths/repress.shtml
Interesting.
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Logy,
Yes, a deep, maybe tucked back in a primitive brain pocket.
tt
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All I could find is point 38 on this page: http://www.stopbadtherapy.com/myths/repress.shtml
Interesting.
Yes, Portia, I am not surprised that you found a person who has the oppinion of disbelief in the "inner child". It's close to the area of spirituality/philosophy. You can debate it for years with physicists, neurologists, atheists, biologists, psychiatrists, philosophers, theologists if you wish to.
I want to steer away from a discussion about if the inner child exists or not, that is not the purpose of this thread. This is not a philosophical debate about the nature of the human spirit, or what is real and what is not real that goes down the path of: Is there a god or no god and what is that god? Etc. etc. etc....
For this thread I am assuming that the innerchild does exists somewhere in the human mind/body/spirit/soul.
I believe in the innerchild, I have contacted my innerchild and I am interested in other's who have had similar experiences.
I personally have learned from other's experiences of the "inner child". That's my goal here on this board, meet like-minded people and learn, get support, give support.
Thank you,
~ Helen.
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Hi TT, odd questions:
what would cause the mind to trick itself? Um, not sure what you mean here in tricking itself. Doesn't the brain (same as mind, for me really) do what it needs to do to survive? Therefore it's not really tricking as such. Not sure I understand the question.
Not sure I understand the next question too: what is a divided mind?
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Helen
I hear you telling me to back off in no uncertain terms and I feel attacked by your reply. But that's just my child-like parts talking: the parts that still want to yell: my opinion is as valid as yours! What i think is as valid as what you think! etc etc. *sigh*
If you want to own this thread and discount my voice, that's your choice. I could start a thread called: does the inner child exist or not? but I won't.
Thanks for the attack. Nicely done!
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Helen
I hear you telling me to back off in no uncertain terms and I feel attacked by your reply. But that's just my child-like parts talking: the parts that still want to yell: my opinion is as valid as yours! What i think is as valid as what you think! etc etc. *sigh*
If you want to own this thread and discount my voice, that's your choice. I could start a thread called: does the inner child exist or not? but I won't.
Thanks for the attack. Nicely done!
Portia,
I want to feel safe discussing my inner child. I also want to discus other's experiences of the inner child. It is a sensitive subject.
That is why I requested to have a certain framework for this discussion.
I'm requesting that you are respectful by not questioning the validity of other's experiences.
Thank you.
Portia I do think you have a valid voice and a right to your own opinion. It's an interesting subject, and yes you could start another thread.
~Helen
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I have tried to do some inner child work. When I tried to talk to her she was about 4. She was scared of me, that I was going to hurt her. She had every right to be scared. She likes to draw pictures. Mostly of houses on a hill. She likes flowers, real ones, not the ones in paintings, she's very emphatic about that.
I have had a hard time feeling empathy for my inner child. I have disliked the child that I was. I still struggle with this. My T had me work on some inner child stuff. He had me picturing something about me as a young child. I can't remember what. I just remember that, in my head, the adult me reached out and slapped that child to the floor. It was an instantaneous reaction. 'That's what children get' was played in my head. I have never hit a child in real life, and I would never, but my inner child deserved what she got. That's what I'm working against. That there is such a deep seated hatred of me in me. It's ingrained and so hard to fight.
Wow, that just makes me tired, bedtime, Worn
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Worn: the experience you described is very important! It's a crystal clear description of how our "now" personality has internalized & adopted the attitudes & behavior of our abusers to ourselves. This is where self-sabotage comes from, I think. And you're right - even just knowing and saying this kind of experience can be emotionally draining. It is SUCH a struggle to try to repair this relationship with our selves... to apologize to our Selves; to earn the trust of that inner child; to be able to heal that relationship with ourselves. I know I felt like just giving up during the beginning.
That said, the rewards of the struggle are immense. And it's not so much a "fight"; not so much "force" or willpower or even working toward a goal that gets us there. My experience was more a softening - a letting go of "have tos", "rules", "shoulds"... of just being... and being open to where the work would lead.
As to how a self can divide... this type of dissociation happens either through trauma or through long term abuse or through a disagreeable, disturbed attachment to the primary caregiver - usually mom. Check out Daniel Schore's work on attachment & dissociation. For me, this answered the question of how this kind of separation from one's self - one's inner child - is possible. And it also provides a lot of clues to how to repair that separation; to cease being cut off from who I really am... to begin learning how to stop repeating the same abusive behavior toward myself that I endured at the hands of someone else. It is difficult reading - it's a scientific study. But the interesting points are all in plain language. The work is connected, I think, to Neuropsychology (or is it Psychoneurology???) and healing depends on the plasticity of the brain.
It wasn't that long ago that I reposted links to Certain Hope's thread (Hi Carolyn!) that started my investigations down that path. In there, I posted links to Schore's works that are available online, for anyone who's interested.
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Was having a hard time finding the links to Schore's articles. Found a website with three of his articles plus several others on trauma and dissociation. Haven't read any yet, but it looks like good stuff.
http://www.trauma-pages.com/
Thanks for the reply Phoenix, Worn
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I found this: http://www.somaticpsychotherapy.com.au/index.php?option=com_content&task=view&id=58&Itemid=45
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I thought my old posts were still hanging out here - but the one with the links isn't.
Here are some references to papers by Schore:
http://attachment.adoption.com/bonding/trauma-links.html
http://www.trauma-pages.com/a/schore-2002.php
Might be the same ones you found, Worn - check Amazon, too. He has published books, though I can't review 'em - never got around to ordering them and they're never in stock in local bookstores.
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~~Meeting with my inner-child feels like a clandestine love affair. ~~
Probably because to even attempt to do this work goes against all that I was taught about myself.
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Hi Helen, TT
I read your replies. I don't think I have anything esle to say. Best to you both.
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I just remember that, in my head, the adult me reached out and slapped that child to the floor. It was an instantaneous reaction. 'That's what children get' was played in my head. I have never hit a child in real life, and I would never, but my inner child deserved what she got. That's what I'm working against. That there is such a deep seated hatred of me in me. It's ingrained and so hard to fight.
Worn,
I have experienced a similar type of thing also, an aspect of me that is not so kind to my own innerchild.
Not only is there an inner child but there is an "inner critic" and an "inner nurturer". It's my understanding that working with the inner critic and inner nurturer helps a person form a relationship with the inner child.
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I like the picture of your inner child about to headbutt you Helen. :) I'm glad you two are getting to know each other.
My T was, I think, talking about my inner critic in my last session. She says it is on steroids. I think it has roid rage too. She says I need to listen to what it is really trying to tell me. And that I need to thank it for looking out for me but let it know that it goes too far. I'm not sure about all of that, it makes sense, but I feel like that critic is my enemy. It wants me destroyed. Maybe she's talking about setting boundaries for the critic. I'd like to try training it with a shock collar also. You know, start filling my head with how I'm so worthless and I just press a button and *BBBBZZZZZZZZTTTTTTTT!!!!!* I've literally had to shout it down, in my own head not out loud thankfully, telling it to shut up, it's wrong and I don't have to listen to this right now. That's works for awhile, but it just waits for a moment when I'm down again and it returns whispering poison in my ear.
What are some of the ways of working with the inner critic and inner nurturer to establish a relationship with the inner child?
Phoenix, that makes so much sense about self-sabatoge coming from that taking on of our abuser's attitudes about us. Still haven't read the articles, but they are saved on my computer.
Worn
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Helen,
I am loving reading about your journey with your inner child. Still trying to look inside and see if mine is still there.
Worn,
I have worked hard to address my inner critic. At first I thought it was my "conscious" telling me how to behave. But this conscious had me doing things that felt untrue to me and denying me as an individual. Critic and Conscious had me trained to ignore Me because Me had no value as an individual, only as an extension of others.
Through therapy I learned to pay attention to Me, something I had never had in my life. So Me began the work of dividing Conscious from Critic. My T helped me recognize Me and learn that Critic had much more control over me. We discussed what Critic was saying. He wrote it down as I said it. And then we discussed more affirming, simple statements to challenge Critic. He wrote those under Critic's comments. All on a card I could carry around. I pulled it out whenever Critic came into the room. And I had an answer every time.
Conscious has now come out. No longer shadowed behind Critic. Conscious believes in Me. We are enjoying getting to know each other. :D
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Helen,
I am loving reading about your journey with your inner child. Still trying to look inside and see if mine is still there.
I'm sure little Logy is there somewhere.
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Looking back, I can relate to this. I was just trying to maintain my sanity and a sense of control, when others would look at me as being this "horrible kid."
I'm going to share this anyway, even though it may sound silly. 14 years ago in Alabama, black nail polish was considered HORRID. I was treated badl by the community because of wearing it. I wore it, because I simply liked it and it made me feel comfortable. I was trying NOT to give into my narcissistic mom's expectations. I just wasn't happy being what she wanted me to be.
Living in Boston, I see so many people wearing it. Even middle-aged moms wear it!
When I was growing up, they treated black nail polish as being satanic and what was "causing my anxiety." Give me a freaking break! Thank God I get to do whatever I want now without hearing someone complain.
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Thanks for the shock-collar image, Worn! :D
I really like that idea because it gives me something easy to "do"; to fight back - and not just sink into helplessness - when the cesspool thoughts start to slosh around & spill out. BBBZZZZZZTTT!!
Portia - I hope you understand that I respect your skepticism about the whole "inner child" concept. I too, doubted it and myself for quite a long time. But in the end, for me, there was no denying that something like this was "true" for me; it was something I had to face and get to know and play detective and resolve the issues.
And I do believe that there have been cases where false "inner child" memories were "created" in patients by therapists who were simply leading the patient into the fashionable theory of the day. It would be SO easy for this to happen. But in my case - all those memories, thoughts & feelings "came up" in me outside of therapy sessions. It was simply me & me... and yes, there is still plenty of room for self-deception, misunderstanding of circumstances, etc. Much of my inner child "work" was in verifying a chronology of events & dates... determining what I did know - and what I couldn't possibly know for a fact - what I remembered was as checked out as much as I possibly could. There are still places in my "story" that I can't verify with certainty - and that is another type of issue that I continue to resolve or let go even trying to resolve.
(((Portia)))
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I was hoping to steer away from the ongoing debate regarding the credibility of a technique that I'm currently practicing since it all seems rather invalidating.
Locking this post.