Voicelessness and Emotional Survival Message Board
Voicelessness and Emotional Survival => Voicelessness and Emotional Survival Message Board => Topic started by: flower on October 22, 2004, 02:43:51 AM
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Here's a link on apologizing and what is involved in a genuine apology.
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What it Means to be Sorry:
The Power of Apology in Mediation
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Mediation Quarterly, Vol. 17, Number 3 (Spring 2000)
Carl D. Schneider, Ph.D., Mediation Matters
http://www.divorcenet.com/md/mdart-14.html
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some more on apologising...
3 types of apology
One: “Yes that happened, I accept my responsibility and I am sorry.” A true apology.
Two: “Well perhaps something like that happened but not as you describe it. I’m sorry you were upset but I was very busy at the time, my health was poor, you don’t know what I had to put up with from your father…..”
“I’m sorry you were upset” is a statement of pity for someone, but it the pity we feel for someone whose suffering has nothing to do with us personally. It is not an apology.
Three: “How dare you say that to me! The things you’re talking about never happened.”
Two and three are refusals to establish what did in fact happen.
About people who use methods two and three: “The fear of losing the picture they have of themselves in the world, their fear of a conscience punishing them for past misdeeds, may be so strong that it makes it impossible for them to take their relationships with other people into consideration. Usually such people do not love their challenger, and so there is no incentive for them to look after the challenger, particularly if doing so would put them at risk. They might profess a love for the challenger and believe that they are telling the truth, but all they ever feel is a mild, sentimental affection, and then only when the challenger pleases them. They might want the challenger to love them, but not at the expense of allowing that person a victory over them.
One of the saddest, hardest things that we have to do is to accept that those people, who in an ideal world would have loved us bountifully simply because we existed, are limited by their own sense of being unloved and by their jealousy, envy and hate – to the extent that they are unable even to know what generosity and compassion are, much less exhibit them….to admit that by unlucky chance we have been born into a family where love is in very short supply, that is a sadness we take to the grave. Difficult though it is, the best we can do is not blame ourselves for being unlovable but to see the situation clearly and do what can be sensibly done to protect ourselves from further hurt.”
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Thank you, flower, for this thread.
And, Thank you, Dot, for your comments. I just logged on to start a new thread, but your last paragraph was just what I needed to hear, to reaffirm what I already know.
I am trying to take a day for myself, to try to restore my health and I just let a long-distance call from nMom go to answering - then I listened to the message, and it was nothing, really. I wasn't home last nite when she phoned, and talking with my dear H is just not enough for her. She hates it when she needs to feed from my energy and I am not available. I am her NFood supply - she feeds, I grow weak.
And, yet, I was filled with guilt as I stood watching the phone ring.
Then I read your post, and it brought me back to reality - it is all about Her. Your post helped give me the strength to carry on with my day of emotional healing. I have experienced both #2 and #3, and will never hear #1.
Sometimes, when I begin to doubt what I know to be true, it is so very reassuring to read the words of others in this group, and realize that it is okay to look after myself. And it is healing to know that I am on the right path.
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(((((Only Me)))))
It is not only okay to look after yourself, but it is also necessary and paramount to look after yourself. And you're doing great! :)
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***thank you***
I needed that ....
I'm having little boohoos here, but 'good' boohoos.
~Only Me, not logged in at the moment
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flower: Thanks for the link. I'm printing the article now.
Dot: WOW. What a post. Lots of wisdom there.
bunny
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that's a great article! last week in my divorce settlement conference I apologized for something I said that offended my xN. he didn't acknowlege or accept my apology. the funny thing is... both the judge and his attorney started treating me with greater respect and actually started calling him on his bs! all that aside, I can feel good about myself because I am trying to act with integrity, regardless of the actions of others.
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hi Flower, it looks fine on my home PC. Are you using some sort of parental control filter or library PC? Perhaps it is filtering out words and replacing them with ???s.
can you copy and paste a part where you see this and we can compare..? or quote a sentence and I'll have a look..
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This doubt injury is so hard. I have been injured by my mom's doubt. I've called my mom 'doubt on legs' because doubt is her favorite past time. She puts doubt on almost everything another person says. She ammends comments about the weather
Doubt injury - what a perfect phrase, as is 'doubt on legs'!
Even when I am asked "will that be mashed potatoes or baked?" I can't make up my mind - every single thing I said was questioned and negated, even when I was attempting to agree with NM. Now I don't trust my own decisions, most of the time, but now I understand why. I'm working on it, but your expression "doubt injury" says it all. :idea:
My favourite courses in school, way back when, were the maths and sciences, and now I understand why : when I had the right answer, there was no doubt, or when I had the wrong answer, there was no doubt, but I could learn what to do to get it right.
With NM, I could never get the right answer, ever. Hmmm, interesting flashback.
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Kellydckm here - You guys, it always amazes me when I log in and hear other people going through the same things as I! I cannot believe that in one day I can forget and start feeling sorry for my Nmom.
Boy, why didn't I figure that Math thing out???? As I look bad over my life I can remember time and again when my mom edited something I wrote until it became something SHE wrote! Talk about invalidating everything I ever said or did.
Doubt on legs - Doubt injury!! Everything I have ever done has had either doubt or guilt attached to it.
Oh, I am being flooded with negative memories!!! Gee whiz, it's a no wonder I am so confused about my decision to maybe leave our family business..........no matter what I decide to do, there will be doubt and shame and guilt thrown all over it................I am doomed to feel bad about the very decision that might set me free!
Guess it is like a divorce. Even if you know it is the right thing to do, you can be assured that you are going to go through a very ugly couple of years and if your situation is sooooo bad, you'll endure the pain just to get out of it. Then your life is totally different so you have to adjust to a new life.
I guess we are all in this boat together. Sometimes I think this forum is the only place in the whole world where people understand the hurt and the pain and the angst and the frustration....................
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I am so grateful for the wisdom on this board. Sometimes I don't have the emotional strength to read all the posts but I am so glad when I open a new one. The phrase "Doubt Injury" is so helpful. Now that I am more aware I see how this plays out with Nm and I see that others experience this damaging manifestation of NPD. Just how many twisted ways does this disorder show itself I wonder.
Les:" So your diarehea is getting worse then is it mother?" Nm: "No, I wouldn't say it's getting worse! It's more frequent." Huh? Next time I'll be ready. What do they get out of this?
Les
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Flower? I posted this
hi Flower, it looks fine on my home PC. Are you using some sort of parental control filter or library PC? Perhaps it is filtering out words and replacing them with ???s.
can you copy and paste a part where you see this and we can compare..? or quote a sentence and I'll have a look..
and then you said above
When those who post introduce themselves and identify themselves and establish an identity on the board their input can be processed and responded to in a more supportive manner. Please identify yourselves guests so that we can better support your healing from voicelessness and your emotional survival.
Did you mean my post re: the question marks? Just trying to help you. Or is it someone/something else? Very confused here.
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Quick comment :
Just got off the phone from listening to NMom, who was telling me about having the minister for dinner last nite, and she said to me, her only child :
" ... and I told him that I am the last remaining member of the family!"
I cringed, and blurted "No you're not, I am!".
She tried to stumble/explain that she meant 'the immediate family' - like I'm not a member of the immediate family - I'm the only family she has left (me and dear H).
Just when I think she can't hurt me any more......dang! :roll:
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Kellydckm here - You guys, it always amazes me when I log in and hear other people going through the same things as I! I cannot believe that in one day I can forget and start feeling sorry for my Nmom.
A large "Me too!" on this one. I've posted a very few times and then just sort of wandered off from here...and yes I started to forget, or doubt, that my parent(s) way of doing things are seriously mucked up-- maybe I was overreacting. Then their recent behavior sent me crying to my (carefully hidden and guarded) journal and I remembered this board. I'm glad I came back. After reading a link on another thread about NPD, I think I can admit to myself that my mother and father fit this and maybe I'm not crazy for thinking they are NPD-type people. I do feel sorry for them as I know they were raised this way too, but that absolutley does NOT give them the right to inflict this family curse on their children...and unfortunatly they have and continue to do so.
Their is much empathy and keen insight on the thread and I'm glad that board members are willing to share. I don't know if anyone with Nparents feels like it takes some courage to be talking about it in a public forum, but to me it sometimes feels like I'm doing something bad, like I'm letting this dirty family secret be known.
peace and true selves,
Kiba Jin in guest mode
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Just when I think she can't hurt me any more......dang! :roll:
After working very hard for the last year and a half to lose weight so that I could have more confidence while looking for a new job, my Nmother's comment to me yesterday was, "You look like hell, your face is too thin." I don't even think she remembered ten seconds later that she'd said it, comments like that just roll off her tongue. I second that dang! :cry:
Singer
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Just when I think she can't hurt me any more......dang! :roll:
After working very hard for the last year and a half to lose weight so that I could have more confidence while looking for a new job, my Nmother's comment to me yesterday was, "You look like hell, your face is too thin." I don't even think she remembered ten seconds later that she'd said it, comments like that just roll off her tongue. I second that dang! :cry:
Singer
I feel for both of you. I too have lost an amazing (to me anyway) amount of weight *slowly* this last year and half and my parents noticed, but in a "maybe you're getting too skinny" kinda way -- I don't agree on too skinny; my BMI is out of the obese range and now in moderatly overweight, though I think I'm looking pretty good. Then the junk food came flooding into the house and Nmom looks daggers at me everythime I leave the house to go bike riding. There's a lot of games going on with food and money in our house -- like Nmom buys whatever she feels like (cigarettes, KFC, creamer, coffee...that's about all her food groups) and I play hell getting her to buy some veggies or just any damn plain healthy food for me because 'she's out of money/too tired/whatever'. The message is clear -- You do not matter enough for me to bother. So I third the dang! It's like these Npeople have a gift for cutting comments coupled with amnesia. Keep up on treating yourself well Singer, you deserve it as do we all.
peaceful days, restful nights,
KJ
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The word "editing" stands out to me here, Kelly. It is like our moms have a big red pen they take to everything we do. I have felt like a sheet of homework handed back with all mistakes circled and checked in red ink.
The Contradictionary
Great concepts! Makes perfect sense in my world... :wink:
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Hi Flower and Bunny in particular, hello all. Coming here a bit late but….some info on that first post from Dot. The words are from Dr Dorothy Rowe (about apologising) from her book ‘Friends and Enemies’ which I recommend whole-heartedly. In it she occasionally talks about her mother, who was only interested in things which concerned her directly, had no empathy, would never take responsibility for anything, always blamed others etc etc. Rowe doesn’t label people with a disorder description or psychological mental state. She just describes what they do and think and why they do and think what they do and think. But Rowe goes so deep into the reasons for conflict, both at family level and internationally. Her reports on Israel, Northern Ireland, Serbia are eye-opening. She works with childrens’ orgs in N Ireland now.
I’m reading my way through everything of hers I can. She’s so down-to-earth and yet rooted in sound psychology too. She was once head of clinical psych in Lincs here in the UK. More info at her site (thanks to CG for the link): http://www.dorothyrowe.com.au/
Anyhow, she doesn’t publish in the US. I’ll quote from the second book below where she says (page 123): “I am aware of how lucky I am to be able to write what I want to write. This book could be published in very few countries. It is highly unlikely that it will ever be published in the USA, a country where the State and the Churches allow the freedom to get rich or to starve, but not the freedom to question such freedom. To ask such questions is to hold ‘liberal’ ideas, almost as reprehensible as being a ‘Communist’.”
I bookmarked that for this thread. :D
So, if you like the sound of Rowe, can I recommend two books: ‘Friends and Enemies’ and ‘Wanting Everything’. It’s not like a ‘wanting everything’ self-help book. Fay Weldon describes it as a modern day Bible – i.e. to be used and discussed and thought about. I’m not half-way through it and it takes careful reading. It tells one version of the truth about countries, power, psychiatry, the arms industry and how it works with the pharmaceuticals industry (when a war is finished, the prozac moves in to ‘help’ the war-torn citizens). But it also talks about how we all live and deal with our everyday lives. She talks a lot about how introverts and extraverts are so different and how important it is to understand each other.
Heck, you’d think I was getting commission! I’m not, just enjoying (in a stretching way) what I’m reading and want to share it. You can buy from Amazon UK (the links below are to there) and get the books shipped across coz you won’t get good prices on second-hand ones in the US. I don’t know the rates but if you bundle a few together…?
http://tinyurl.com/5na22 - Friends and Enemies
http://tinyurl.com/5zok7 - Wanting Everything – the art of happiness
Sorry it’s such a long post and didn’t intend to upset the flow of the thread. Best, P
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It's Only Me,
and I really need you all, warts and all.
My dear H says that since I have found you special ones, my life has been so much better, and for that I want to thank you.
In light of some of the shenanigans that are going on with some other threads, I am just stopping by for a moment to say that I hope that it doesn't change the essence of what we have here, for one another. I am so much stronger, even though today one of my broken places needs mending.
It is a comfort to know that your voices are there, that I am part of a special group who understand the journey I am on, and who are walking a similar path. I feel in my heart that we can grow strong and rise above our abuse, knowing that we are not alone, and that there are others here who understand the things unspoken.
Thank you for helping to save my life. It would be a tremendous loss if we were to all scatter, now.
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Hi OnlyMe,
Since you brought up the subject, is it wrong to stand up for yourself when wronged?
I have never had the guts to stand up for myself to anyone. This week I stood up for my son at school and got the best situation for him considering the circumstances.
On the board earlier someone bashed me to no end for suggesting a solution to some thread problems.
I have always been the blame for every thing wrong in this world, at least that's how it feels. Now look at me, at 45 I am regressing to this little 10 year old, wishing I could just disappear.
If I am not allowed to speak up for myself - AND show some anger once in a while I will go to my grave voiceless, and wishing I had the guts once in while....this is ellie and I am hiding because I can take only so much bashing and then I hide... :oops:
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Hi flower,
Well I tried the little experiment:
I feel like going to the store and picking out something to buy that I don't want just because I decided to buy it and then live with the decision and be happy with my purchase. That will be a little counter the doubter symbolic act on my part. It will be interesting to see what results I get emotionally from that action. Maybe I'll just do this. flower
edited, I'm thinking along the lines of something too small or ugly or something I'm allergic to, a magazine on sport fishing (no offense to that interest) along those lines.
This experiment was an eyeopener! I went to a store today to find things I didn't want to buy. I ended up having an experience I least expected. I learned something about myself. It seemed healing. My husband and I went together and had fun. He said to me in jest as we looked around and had fun with the items, (It was a shop with all kinds of things, kind of like the old time variety store) "Somehow this seems wrong."
WOW!!! This was so cool to read. :D I just wanted to share my little experience with something similar. For a while, I tried going to things I didn't like because I was trying to "expand my horizons". Know what I found? That there were all these crazy things that "I didn't like" or "I didn't enjoy" when in fact, it was quite the opposite. I'd just adopted my parents rejection of, oh, pretty much EVERYTHING in the world that isn't about them. Jeez. :roll: Crazy. I've been avoiding so many fun things for so long because I'd become brainwashed into rejecting so many things. That was such a huge moment for me (and pretty recent).
Thanks for sharing that, flower.
Wildflower
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WOW!!! This was so cool to read. :D I just wanted to share my little experience with something similar. For a while, I tried going to things I didn't like because I was trying to "expand my horizons". Know what I found? That there were all these crazy things that "I didn't like" or "I didn't enjoy" when in fact, it was quite the opposite. I'd just adopted my parents rejection of, oh, pretty much EVERYTHING in the world that isn't about them. Jeez. :roll: Crazy. I've been avoiding so many fun things for so long because I'd become brainwashed into rejecting so many things. That was such a huge moment for me (and pretty recent).
Thanks for sharing that, flower.
Wildflower
Me too! Me too! It's almost like our parents knew each other and shared that handy childrearing tip with each other ....what did they all read it in a magazine one day..."to isolate child for fun and profit, do the following...."
My recent dorky discoveries: I like to hang out in coffee shops/ I like to go out at night/ I like to be around other people/I like to eat meals NOT centered around a big hunk of meat and 3 bits of broccoli cuz that's what Dad wants/ I would like to be more active in social causes, but am still wrestling with embarresment on that one -- our family was one of non-involvement with the non-family world. Yay! Now to find out if I like snowboarding, being east of the Mississppi river and other assorted things.
It is indeed a huge moment -- sorta like Christmas, but much more pleasant.
happy, happy, joy, joy,
KJ
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Hi Ellie,
I am sooooo sorry, because it never crossed my mind that my comments would trigger something negative in you, or anyone else. I had been reading some other threads, and became upset with the hurtful bantering back and forth. It must have triggered something in me, and I was hoping to try to help, somehow. Though my feelings were not directed at anyone in particular, I guess I had forgotten how they might inadvertantly affect others, and for that I am very sorry, so very sorry.
I sincerely apologize to you and anyone else I may have upset, for it most certainly was not my intention.
I have been so grateful to find this group, and just didn't want anything to happen to it.
I guess I should have remained quietly in the background.
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Oh (((((((((Only me))))))))) :(
I doubt you've upset anyone! Not sure, but I doubt it. Please please don't go quiet! I'd hate that to happen to anyone here. True. Take heart OM coz you've got a great heart. I think so. Courage to you, P
is it wrong to stand up for yourself when wronged?
No! Stand up for yourself please. (((Ellie))) When folks say things they aren't necessarily talking about what you do, or what anyone else does. They're talking about what's inside their own heads. Just like I do. It's okay, it's all we're able to do. You do what you need to Ellie. And OnlyMe too. Just please don't leave and please don't stop talking. That's the worse thing.
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Thanks, Ellie for being here today. Thanks, Portia for your perspective.
I know I can be too sensitive at times, and maybe that is partly why I react the way I do - as a kid growing up, I was responsible for any little thing that went wrong in my NP's lives, even bad weather! So, I usually walk a tight-rope trying my best to never step over any line, trying to always keep the peace. Guess I was trying to do that here, when in fact, sometimes things sort themselves out best on their own! I'm still learning and growing, and I didn't want to give up on this board and my little voice. Maybe it was a bad night, all round.
[ On a lighter note re : your ref to motorcycles - I decided to buy and learn to ride a Harley two years ago, because I had a 'what am I waiting for?' moment! My dearH did the same. So, here I am with grey hair, and still haven't told my NM, never told my late NDad. When I vaguely mentioned motorcycles, the neg comments started, so I knew that instead of being proud of me, they would do everything in their power to invalidate my dreams, yet again. But this time, I only shared my dream with dearH, and with his support, it came true. And, so, today I am riding, we are riding, better late than never. 8) Every now and then I get a flash-forward of riding it to NM's funeral some day - after all, I'd be dressed in my black leathers, how appropriate?!! Oh, bad thought! ]
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See, things happen for a reason.....
OnlyMe, we have a wonderful hobby in common! But you have a couple years of seat time under your belt than I do. I will get there! I started out on a Honda Rebel 250, but next spring (if not before) I'm getting a Low Rider!!!!!!! Can't wait. H got a Fat Boy this year and I am so jealous but I just wasn't confident enough to start with the big machine.
And since this thread is about what we'll never get from our Ns:
Nparents will never be happy I ride...
Nparents would love to kill me for even taking the Rider's Edge course...
Nparents will probably never see me on my bike...
Nparents have not been told I own and ride the bike...
So I will never get support from Nfamily (since siblings and all must all follow Nparents) regarding the bike.
They will never know the success I felt when I completed the course, the success and thrill I felt after my first ride on the road, the thrill of riding in heavy traffic and surviving, the thrill of that motor growling between my legs, and the power I feel when I dress in my leathers, get on the bike and turn over the engine ------ VROOOOM, VROOOM!!!
OnlyMe said:
Every now and then I get a flash-forward of riding it to NM's funeral some day - after all, I'd be dressed in my black leathers, how appropriate?!! Oh, bad thought!
We think alike! I would love to ride into town for both Nparents funerals with my riding buds, roaring those Harley engines, black leathers flying, adorned with doo rags, pony tails and the works :twisted:
I'd be grinning from ear to ear just like each time I start up my ride right now. Can you hear the Newbie in my tone. Still can't get enough!
H and I are joining a group riding to Sturgis next year. That is my ultimate rebelous act for healing from Nparents! I just love the atmosphere at bike rallies!
"If the person in the next lane at the stoplight rolls up the window and locks the door, support their view of life by snarling at them. "
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I'm currently on the phone 'listening' to NM drone on and on about herself, so :
What we will never get from our N's :
"We'll never be able to get a word in edge-wise!" :P :lol: :lol: :lol: :P
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Free at last from the umbilical er I mean the telephone cord!
Ellie, huge congratulations on getting your motorcycle licence - what a powerful feeling! Good idea to get your experience on the smaller ride - then you'll be ready for your HD, no problem! I took the Safety Course, too.
If only the NParents knew how to be proud of us! They just don't know or appreciate what they are missing!
Back to the thread, and a reflection of the past day on this board :
How wonderful it would be if all the misunderstandings could be resolved as comfortably as ours today .... :wink:
There is tremendous value and healing when we are honest, and have compassion for one another.
Just my humble thoughts, with gratitude for this board and the healing and comfort it provides, most of the time! :wink:
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Hiya Flower. :D Sorry a biggie. Think I should tell you some stuff. I’m overwhelmed by your post (in a good way). A bit about what I did here. Boring but I want to say it. You posted that first link and it was great. I thought good, I can post that Rowe quote I saved about apologising coz the whole passage had a big effect on me. But at the time I wanted to not be Portia. :oops: So I was Dot. And as Dot, I didn’t address you directly (say thank you for the link) coz I thought it was more anonymous. Make sense? Maybe not. I was glad people liked the post. So I thought at some point I must come back and identify the quote (to give Rowe her due as well). You posted about seeing question marks and I thought ‘odd’ maybe you’ve got that software that blanks out certain combinations of words? (Seeker mentioned she got asterixes when she typed ‘pushed hard on’ or something.) So I posted a question and you posted something back. And I pondered what was wrong. Then I thought aha, maybe it was the term ‘parental control filter’? Which is a computer term to me – filters out porny stuff so kids can’t access it. Maybe you’d taken that to mean something totally different, like some weird dig at your thinking? Possible I thought. Then you said you were fine with the question marks - (I warned you this was boring!) – and I thought okay, but that’s got me wanting to help you more! Have you worked out why you’re getting question marks and solved it? Or are you just ignoring them? And if so, I wanted to explain it rather than have you thinking something weird was going on with ‘Dot’ or with the web link. So then, ha ha, this is long isn’t it? :roll: I thought yeah, must make it obvious it was me all along, give the info about Rowe and give you the chance to ask if you wish about the question marks. ....
Is this tortured or what? So when I was back in P mode and talking to Phoenix, I dropped in the Rowe stuff. Why did I include that quote about not being published in the US. Because it made me wonder? I’ve been so stuck in her books, and it’s been like reading my own thoughts from years ago. In fact, it’s been scary in that way. Like I’d buried everything. And I also thought I shouldn’t be agreeing with her, lock stock and barrel. I expect to disagree with every book I read somewhere along the line. If I don’t, I must be swallowing it whole, being gullible? That’s my thinking. And that quote about the US niggled me. Because people aren’t left to starve, I know that. But I was so stuck on her, I couldn’t see an alternative. I just thought it’s wrong, but why has she written that? To be clear, this book was published in 94. I can’t remember 10 years ago easily. But it still doesn’t make that quote okay. And then you told me the alternative – that she probably couldn’t get a contract. Simple and so obvious and logical! I couldn’t get to that. I was just stuck in ‘why?’. Which makes me wonder if I was making Rowe a mother in reading her. Coz now I can see all the times I was asking ‘why’ with mother. But I couldn’t use logic to get to the answer, because, well, you know the answer. What a great lesson! And maybe next time I’ll recognise that confusion? Hope so. (I'm guessing this is what my head did. Tough feedback welcome.)
And what did you do? Gave me a wonderful description of your reaction, how you see things and it’s great! But I wish I’d been upfront with the posts in the first place and I wish I’d said I was confused about that quote. To be honest, I couldn’t even *think* about the quote so I saved it for here in the hope that someone would decipher it for me. And you did. Thank you. I’m just sorry that you went to such lengths to respond because I wasn’t attacking the US, it was only after I posted I looked at it and thought maybe it was political. And it was, and it didn’t make sense.
I liked the story about the English teacher. Maybe she should have said “is it safe to walk that road at night?” I think we all have an idea of what that means. We all want to be safe and free! Hey some in the UK would say we’re not part of Europe at all and get quite worked up about the idea. Sovereignty and all that. Some would commute on the train to do their job in France or Belgium. Many of us would say we’re much, much closer in culture, economy and ideas to the US. Heck we’re all people. One of my favourite novelists is Canadian Margaret Atwood. ‘The handmaid’s tale’ made a big impression on me and it could have been written in a number of countries. I guess the story is more important than where it comes from. Yeah, that sounds good! :D
Enough for now and sorry for the long explanation and apologies for being Dot. Pretty dumb of me. Yep, it was. Going to read your post again! Thanks Flower. P
Hey all this motorbike stuff is making me envious. 8) I want one! I just wish we had some big open spaces to ride them. The crowded south east is not somewhere I’d recommend for bikes or peace of mind. We’re all pretty nuts down here and people drive like lunatics. I should know ha ha :D
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It's almost like our parents knew each other and shared that handy childrearing tip with each other ....what did they all read it in a magazine one day..."to isolate child for fun and profit, do the following...."
KJ
KJ -
I love reading your posts... You have a way with words. Ever thought about writing?? :)[/quote]
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why I react the way I do - as a kid growing up, I was responsible for any little thing that went wrong in my NP's lives, even bad weather!
Last year my counselor suddenly asked me if, when growing up, I felt responsible or accountable for things I didn't know or couldn't control. I said "of course!" It was an "aha" moment for both of us. He told me to write down, "You cannot be accountable for what you don't know." Such a simplistic thought, but what a revelation for me!
Every now and then I get a flash-forward of riding it to NM's funeral some day - after all, I'd be dressed in my black leathers, how appropriate?!! Oh, bad thought!
Oh, I absolutely love it... 8)
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Oh my!!!!! At a job interview they asked me what I like to do on my own time. Guess what? I don't do anything. I mean I really don't do ANYTHING. I would like to garden, but I've got too much housework to do. I would like to go shopping but I feel too fat to look good in clothes. I would like to do a lot of things.
I went to a workshop on how to be a good hostess. Name cards. Centerpieces. I won't even invite anyone over because my house has to be perfect to have guests and since it is never perfect, I can't have guests over!!!
My brother and sister-in-law ride Harleys. My brother got a huge eagle tatoo on his back. They are almost 50. It is like my brother suddenly decided to do and be what he wants to be. Much to everyone's shagrin!!! And even mine. I can see that he is going waaayyy over board with his new found freedom and hobby that he is putting off potential customers with his Hell's Angels persona!!! Too bad for him because I can see that he is just spreading his wings and trying to fly without our Nmom's approval!!!
I think we both "rebel" (and I use that term lightly since we really are too old to REBEL) from anything that my Nmom tries to influence us on. She tries to dress me like her so I take great joy in growing my hair and wearing blue jeans. She would prefer a perfect Christian son, so he gives her a Hells Angels wannbe........................
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There is a marvelous book, something that seriously gave me the courage to split from my family, particularly the Nmother--it's called HOW DO I FORGIVE YOU? by a Dr. Spring, she's a psychologist. All my life, *I* was the culprit for "past" hurts still hurting me, she'd "apologized," which was never really the case, all what she was mouthing...this book zeroed in, like those first few posts in this thread, about REAL apologies, and the manipulative kinds. I *loved* the book.
My Christian faith has that built-in "turn the other cheek" thing going, and this psych really does a good job of addressing the problems with that, but without attacking Christianity itself--she's Jewish. Her advice and examples are really good.
I emailed the first chapter to my enmeshed sister, from a Good Morning America excerpt..and she was PISSED...I was trying to explain WHY I cut the mother off...and she phoned me, whining, "Of *course* I understand why," but her tone and vibes extremely negative. She's the type that you can't say what YOU want without her spinning it into you wanting HER to do same thing.
Anyway...excellent book for this topic.
And how you can forgive someone without them even knowing it, they don't have to be involved. That is for YOUR benefit.
Thanks...
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Thank you for sharing the book info. I will put it on my list of books to read. And I most of all want to thank you for sharing that you have been able to put a distance between you and your NMom, even with your Christian faith. I am bogged down by the fifth commandment, and am hoping to somehow see the old bat through to the end of her days on earth, then it will be for God do decide what to do with her (hence my auto signature " Vengeance is Mine, Sayeth The Lord.") Your post today has given me strength to stand up a bit today. The past few days have been exceptionally brutal.
Thank you, again, for you have helped me see there is light ahead, and I must take control of my reactions and protect my soul.
~Only Me, too tired to log in!
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Hi all:
Onlyme, I wonder if it would help to explore more fully this statement of yours?
"I am bogged down by the fifth commandment".
What is bogging you down about it? Just a thought.
"The past few days have been exceptionally brutal. "
Sorry to hear that, it's not easy or nice. I hope things improve soon. Remember to keep some energy for you.
"I must take control of my reactions and protect my soul. "
This is so challenging isn't it? For me it is. I can relate so well. At least you are aware and have the right intentions. That counts for a lot.
S
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Hi Only Me
I'm afraid I am a lapsed Unitarian amoung other things - which is to say I'm not entirely sure about the 5th but I imagine it is honour your mother and father. I'd be interested to hear more from you on this.
There must be so many ways that this commandment gets reinforced as we grow up, even if we didn't get it from the Bible. I know my NM would say, "Charity begins at home." I've never known the source of that.
So, rest up and then maybe we can all parse this commandment -see what purpose it is serving. What has that woman been doing to you!?
with concern,
Les
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To you who are bogged down by the fifth commandment - I beleive that means you make sure they have a roof over their head, are being fed and taken care of, but here is the kicker. You just have to make sure it gets done - you don't have to be the one doing it.
Can you get nursing care for the person? Can you and whatever siblings you have pool enough or will Medicare or the Canadian system help with this? Have you checked out other alternatives to save yourself some grief?
The fifth commandment doesn't mean we have to take whatever these Ns dish. Just a thought and hopefully a help to those suffering.
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Thank you, Les, and last Guest.
Right now I am coming to grips with learning, by a phone call from someone, that my NM is planning a big show and sale to get rid of the only things my NDad left me in his Will when he died a few months ago - and she plans to keep the $ b/c she was his wife, and in her sick mind, that is all that matters. What a shock! I had no idea. I have been trying to be kind to her, and told her that I would not take anything out of the house as long as she lived there, so as to avoid an upheaval. (background : she told me I inherited ZERO, but I learned a month later via seeing the will that she lied). Thus, my comments that she is a lying, backstabbing, manipulating N!
When we talk on the phone, she is ever so nice, and I got lulled into complacency once again, and I am angry with myself about that! So, tomorrow I am driving hours and hours to her hometown to see about some legalities, without her knowledge, and then driving home again.
I guess I am worn out because I am trying my best to do the right thing (that Fifth Commandment ringing in my ears and it seems to over-ride everything), to see her through to the end of her days. And I guess part of me expects the same sort of respect in return. (when will I learn?) Therefore, it always comes as a shock when I learn the extent she will go to sabotage me and my life. She is nice to my face, and stabs me in the back at the same time. Sometimes I can almost see horns and a red pointed tail.
And, I guess I have had enough, and am worn out. It is a million little things piled one atop the other, until I can't carry any more. The last thing I want is to expend more of my precious energy on her, and thus, I keep trying to wait it out, trying to tread water until she dies, all the while keeping up appearances. With no siblings, or close relatives, only dearH, I am trying just to survive. This time tomorrow, I should have a better perspective on things. Right now, I am exhausted, and resenting that I am exhausted. I am in remission from Cancer, and I'll be damned if that NM is going to get me so run down that a cancer cell gets a chance to grow. So, when I become worn down by NM and her manipulations, like I am these past few days, I become doubly angry, frightened about my health and resentful. She stole the first fifty years of my life, and I'll be damned if she steals any more.
Tomorrow is a new day, and I hope for better things. There are going to be come changes around here, come hell or high water.
Thank you for helping me keep my head above water. :cry:
Just thought of this : "The Truth shall set you free." Here's hoping.
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...for what it's worth, as an observation -
-- when I pressed "Submit" I started to shake, for fear that I might be betraying nM by telling what is happening.
I know that is not a good sign!
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Right now I am coming to grips with learning, by a phone call from someone, that my NM is planning a big show and sale to get rid of the only things my NDad left me in his Will when he died a few months ago - and she plans to keep the $ b/c she was his wife, and in her sick mind, that is all that matters.
I don't know if you're aware of sociopathy but that is what's going on here. It's not a betrayal to describe a parent's sociopathic behavior. It's an observation you're making and a very prudent one, since you must protect yourself. Sociopaths will do anything to grab a quick buck, even sell out their own children or anyone who is in their way. This just happens to be your bio-mother but she is basically a petty criminal. That's just how it is. Not your fault, not even her fault. But a fact.
I'm glad you're going to get legal advice. I hope you can protect yourself. Self-preservation trumps the 5th commandment. And hey, I never saw lightning strike anyone yet...
bunny
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Self-preservation trumps the 5th commandment
.
I've been sitting here trying to offer words of comfort and wisdom, and all my words felt trite. Then bunny summed up what is essential in one sentence.
Take care of your needs, first, OM, learn what that means to you, and the rest will follow. You are a caring individual- you can trust in yourself that you will do the right thing. But first, take care of yourself.
Walking through that net of guilt and fear that was set up for you long ago is part of that- you will grow stronger everytime you allow yourself to move from your own determination, and not from imbedded programs.
Take care, Only Me, you know you have a support system here . Phoenix
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I don't know where to insert this- we don't have a Birthday thread.
Happy Birthday, Discounted Girl! aka Swan! I hope your day was lovely and shared with your loved ones. :D Phoenix
Birthday XXX & OOO.
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hey thank you !!! what a nice surprise to see this !!! please don't ask how old I am ... :lol:
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I don't understand all the unearned guilt here. Gulit is something we should feel if we do something wrong. I beleive inappropriate guilt is possibly caused by someone constantly invalidating us. Why do you all think this unearned guilt exists? Is it because we think we are fundamentally bad? Or is it a habit? Do you think these Ns suffer any guilt? And what would be a good way to dispense with the unearned guilt and get moving towards healing ourselves. And does it exist because we don't want to do the work of healing ourselves? It seems to keep us stuck in an unhealthy place, in a limbo so as not to make hard decisions. I think there must be a payoff for it. What could the payoff be. Any perspectives?
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Good point -- unearned guilt -- produced by an unrealistic sense of responsibility. I remember one time leaving my boss a summary note (turned into 3 pages) of instructions and current status of various projects before I went on vacation. I literally said in the note "in my never ending desire to keep everyone everywhere totally informed of everything, here is bla bla bla. This never ending sense of being responsible is so, so very tiring. I have noticed that when I get past some of the heavy piles, then I tend to goof off for a while and go in the opposite direction. Well, it's brought on I suppose by being unwanted and knowing it -- always trying to prove yourself worthy and no trouble. It's as if the little girl thought if I am quiet, and good, and get good grades, and help out with the work and make sure everyone is happy, then someone will love me. Yes, it's sort of a habit, one real hard to break -- and definitely is produced by child abuse, I will always believe that. No, not every child is affected by jerk parents, but most are.
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Very good response Discounted Girl,
If one has to ask another why they have so much unearned guilt and cannot escape it, I believe that one has never experienced the level of unrealistic sense of responsibility
placed on them as our Nparents have placed on us.
If someone asks why I feel I had to make Nparents happy all the time - my response was "I don't know. I just have to. I was taught this from the very beginning. There is no other way to be. If I don't try to make them happy, I will be worthless, just as they have told me all my life. I just want so badly to be loved". It's so easy to use the words "I'm not responsible for their mistakes and unhappiness". But for a child of Nparents, the words don't hold a lot of meaning. We KNOW we are not responsible, but we have been programmed otherwise and it never all goes away, no matter how much we heal.
Well, it's brought on I suppose by being unwanted and knowing it -- always trying to prove yourself worthy and no trouble. It's as if the little girl thought if I am quiet, and good, and get good grades, and help out with the work and make sure everyone is happy, then someone will love me. Yes, it's sort of a habit, one real hard to break -- and definitely is produced by child abuse, I will always believe that. No, not every child is affected by jerk parents, but most are.
Very well stated. Ditto. Emotional abuse leaves lifetime scars. If one has to question it, they have not met it face to face.
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Ellie said:
If one has to question it, they have not met it face to face.
I am the poster who posed the question. I think we should question it. I have met this. I was a good kid, quiet, peacemaker, did all my chores and watched younger sibs, tried so very hard to get my validation and love which were always out of reach.
But as adults I think it's time to unlearn this unearned guilt. What are some real, concrete steps to get over this? Change the tape in our heads?
Bunny stated she gets over it pretty quick now.
Actually I probably should have posted this on the guilt thread. Sorry.
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Much to ponder here - guilt, where it comes from and why it persists.
I know that as I feel more entitled to a life, my life, I feel less guilty about what I'm not doing for NM. Unfortunately, meeting her needs and my survival are inversely related. The more I try to please her the more my life heads for the sewer. I have had to choose my life.
Only Me - I wonder if this may be a turning point for you. Your mother's true colours flying for all to see. She will no doubt put a spin of some sort on it all.
I have learned that I can't hold my breath any longer and wait for my NM to die. It really was killing me and I didn't know it. She may live well past a hundred.
You said that you are trying to wait it out, trying to tread water until she dies. I felt this way too. I don't know what your mother's health is like and this is delicate ground - but I have begun to suspect that N's can live a looong time. For one thing their bodies have not been subjected to the stresses of "unearned guilt" as was mentioned above.
So treading water is harming you. It's exhausting you. Anybody got a jet ski they can lend Only Me? You have every right to climb aboard and head out of the swamp to open water. (And right now I feel like torpedoing the 5th - It's done way too much damage) Bunny said it. Self-preservation trumps the 5th.
Les
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So OM and Les,
Pointed question. Have you checked out some kind of live in nurse or other arrangement that might be covered by insurance? That way your respective NMs could have a whole new additional N supply and charm the pants off of someone else who doesn't know their game.
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Thanks for your query guest.- A visiting nurse or more services of some sort may be the next step. My mother went to a retirement home for a visit a few days ago. She absolutely hated it. All these people with walkers! Horrifying. I gather that the retirement home encourages the use of walkers - insurance issues - not sure. I appreciate your suggestion. Funny how we get backed in to dead ends when we panic. Oh god, she hates retirement homes - what now!!! But there must be solutions - meals on wheels, nursing care as you say. I just need to get out there and investigate. So true - new unwitting hosts to charms the pants off of.lol
Les
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Glad I could make ya chuckle. Now I'm putting the boot to your butt. Get out there and check it out! You could be doing the old doll a big favor with new supply.
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Nothing helps me more than being able to tell the truth here and to be understood. Thank you for helping. More later. Getting grounded. Just wanted to (((thank you ))) .
Isn't it the Inuit who put the aged on ice floes and send them off to meet the great spirit? Just got a flash of that as a solution. Oh, was that my outside voice? oops. :wink:
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Flower, hope you don’t mind me resurrecting this topic but I really wanted to reply to your post way back on page 3. It’s been niggling away at me that I owe you a reply! With all the stuff while I was away in the first week of this month it’s taken until now. So:
Yuk, about the hijacked URL. Yeah, I can imagine. Not nice. I’ve seen nasty (sick) stuff on the web although it’s been my own fault for looking. Learnt my lesson there, that it really is better to keep some images out of my head. My imagination is good enough, thanks. So finding stuff by accident - yuk. I understand your very clear description of why you were cautious about me as Dot and those question marks. I can see the N ‘game’ there but boy, doesn’t it take so much energy and time working out this deceptive nonsensical rubbish? I’m the same but with different types of games. I just end up thinking “what’s the point?”. Deeply introverted objective-driven person that I am, I get so frustrated by these games. Waste of time!
And just because I can and want to :D , hey, I didn’t see any question marks in that piece. Here’s the first part of it for your amusement. I really want to solve the question of why you see them! It interests me – a problem that might be easily solved, maybe..(although I don’t know enough about how software works, but surely it can’t that difficult and anyway, someone else here might know the answer). Where was I? Oh yep! Here’s what I see:
Family Law Advisor?
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What it Means to be Sorry:
The Power of Apology in Mediation
Mediation Quarterly, Vol. 17, Number 3 (Spring 2000)
Carl D. Schneider, Ph.D., Mediation Matters
The importance of apology as the acknowledgement of injury is familiar to some forms of mediation, including victim-offender mediation, but has been much less understood in divorce mediation. The act of apology represents one of the core reparative opportunities in damaged relations. But it's not easy. This article will describe the opportunity that apology presents, the difficulty we have in seizing that opportunity, and the role that third parties can have in inviting apology. It will identify: 1) what is involved in a genuine apology, identifying the three essential components of apology; 2) the place of apologies in mediation including the recognition of apology as an acknowledgement of injury and the identification of how to assist clients in offering an apology; and 3) the relation of apology to the adversarial system.
Introduction
Apologies differ. Compare the following:
Rev. John Plummer was a pilot in Vietnam who called for an air strike on the village of Trang Bang. Twice, before acting, he was assured there were no civilians in the area. Later, he saw the Pulitzer prize-winning photo of nine-year-old Phan Thi Kim Phuc running from Trang Bang naked and horribly burned by napalm, and was tortured by "the realization that it was I who was responsible for her injuries."
Years of torment ensued as he silently endured his guilt, finding no way to express his remorse. Then he saw a story that the girl was living in Toronto and would attend a Veterans Day observance at the Vietnam Veterans Memorial in Washington. He felt compelled to see her. Upon hearing what had happened to her family, he broke down saying over and over again: "I'm sorry....I'm so sorry.... I'm sorry" (Purdue, 1997 p. 2).
President Richard Nixon in his resignation speech said, "I regret deeply any injuries that may have been done in the course of events that have led to this decision. I would say only that if some of my judgments were wrong, and some were wrong, they were made in what I believed at the time to be in the best interest of the nation."1
Do each of the above examples represent an apology? Why? Why not? Is one more effective than the other? How can we tell? Just what exactly is an apology?
I. WHAT IS AN APOLOGY?
Originally, the Oxford English Dictionary (OED) tells us "apology" meant a defense, a justification, an excuse. Its modern usage has shifted to mean "to acknowledge and express regret for a fault without defense." This modern definition captures the core elements of apology: a) acknowledgment, b) affect, and c) vulnerability.
What are the Elements of Apology?
a). Acknowledgment:
Jeffrie Murphy (Murphy and Hampton, 1988, p. 28) speaks of the role of ritual in apology. Often, when an apology is called for someone has attempted to degrade or insult the other; to bring them low. "As a result, we in a real sense lose face when done a moral injury...But our moral relations provide for a ritual whereby the wrongdoer can symbolically bring himself low - in other words, the humbling ritual of apology, the language of which is often that of begging for forgiveness."
There is a "ritual" of apology. As the OED says, there must be an acknowledgment - a recognition - of an injury that has damaged the bonds between the offending and offended parties. The offense has to qualify as a genuine injury - one that has involved some transgression of a moral or relational norm that has both damaged the offender's social bonds and called into question his/her membership in some community. Tavuchis (1991, p. 13) calls this injury "an act that cannot be undone, but cannot go unnoticed."
In turn the offending party must personally be accountable for it. This can't be a Marv Alpert "I'm sorry if she felt she was harmed" passing stab. It is not being sorry that she is the sort of person who feels that way. Rather, it is acknowledging my role as the offending party in inflicting injury. I have no excuse for what I did, yet it was indeed my action.
Contrast this with Nixon's classic non-apology. In one fell swoop he withheld any acknowledgment that he was responsible for any specific wrongs, hedged on whether there even were any wrongs, and skipped over any direct responsibility for the harm that had been done.
b). Affect:
In order to truly accept responsibility, the offending party must also be visibly affected personally by what s/he has done. I am troubled by it. Scholars who have tried to parse this experience variously name that sense as "regret" and "shame."< SUP> Whichever the affect, the feeling has to be there! Nothing more offended commentators about President Clinton's "apology" than its lack of felt regret. As Mary McGrory (1998 p. A3) said about Americans listening to it, "Lying and adultery they could handle, but not being sorry, especially after you're caught and cornered, is unacceptable."2
It is, of course, possible to be over the top with this. Ted Turner offered what one observer called "the mother of all mea culpas" to television critics after his Cable News Network (CNN) retracted a report that the United States military had used lethal nerve gas in Laos that targeted United States defectors. "I couldn't hurt any more if I was bleeding," said Turner. "He went on," said Peter Boyer, "to say that his humiliation was so complete, his mortification so deeply felt, that no other sorrow he'd known in his fifty-nine years - the suicide of his father, the breakup of his first two marriages, the 1996 World Series defeat of the Braves by the Yankees - compared with what he felt now. What had happened at CNN was, indeed, 'probably the greatest catastrophe of my life.'" (Boyer, p. 28).
c). Vulnerability:
Finally, an apology is offered without defense. A key aspect of apology is the vulnerability involved. An effective apology may be accepted, but as Erving Goffman (1971) taught so well, an apology may be offered, forgiveness may be begged for, yet it may be refused. The offender may have owned up to the wrong inflicted, but this does not guarantee that the offended party will accept the apology. Instead, the offended party can ignore or punish the offender for the wrong done. The offended person may feel that the offense, although acknowledged, is so incalculable -- so enormous -- that it is simply "unforgivable." Martha Minow notes that "Albert Speer, the only Nazi leader at Nuremberg to admit his guilt, also wrote, 'No apologies are possible.'" (Minow, p. 116).
The offending party is placed in a potentially vulnerable state in offering the apology knowing that the chance exists that it may be refused. More than anything else, it is vulnerability that colors apology. Indeed, many of us know well the moment in relationships when the other party has been offended by something and we weigh whether we will attempt to repair it. We know that attempting to restore the relation will take effort. It won't be easy. Is it worth it? We all have debated whether the relation was important enough to us to bother. It is not only effort, but exposure we are weighing. If this doesn't work, things may be worse.
Obviously I’ve lost all the formatting in pasting it here. Quite a few words are in italics. Hope that’s enough to cover it. Willing to post more if need be. Would be interesting to know which words you’re not getting? That would tell whether it’s linked to off-limits words. Or maybe it’s down to some punctuation marks etc not being displayed properly? (See how I love a problem? :roll: )
Want to guess the date and month?
No! I’m steering clear of that one!
Ah, more socialism in govt over here. Well, hmm. The French have a crook for president. The Spanish have recently elected the socialists because of (maybe) the Madrid bombs and here, Tony Blair may be a Labour Prime Minister but he’s close to Reagan’s old fancy-woman, Margaret Thatcher (literally and psychologically). The Labour party here seems right-wing now, and the right-wing conservatives seem to trying to be more left. Confusing, yes. I don’t like party-politics full stop. I wish we could elect individual people, regardless of their party. Geographically I think of Europe in exactly the same way as you – that big hunk of land before Russia to the East and before Africa to the South - I guess it is. I imagine my origins are fairly close to yours, although I don’t know.
English/American – I’ve learnt a lot from the board! Yeah: Shopping trolley/cart: dustbin/waste or trash basket/bin and SHAG PILE carpet! Yep, we used to have that in the 70s. Since then we absorbed the word to mean – what it means to you. But it’s a fond word, not as hard as the F word. Shag is only used as in “fancy a shag?” (in jokes) – it’s never used as abusive. Can you say “shag off”??? It just sounds ridiculous. In fact, I like it! Hey, do you call an affair “a bit on the side”? Men still call it that. Horrible. And they still call attractive women “totty”, or maybe that was just the terribly sexist contingent where I last worked. :x Probably. *sigh*
Anyhoos Flower, got that off my chest, thank you for your reply and sorry mine took so long. No reply necessary, unless you want to help me help you solve that darn question mark question! No worries. :D Take care, P
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Oh booooger!
You know what happened up there? I had this pasted into Word in a table and for some stupid reason, it's pasted the number 8 followed by a bracket thus ) as a sunglasses cool emoticon!
So presumably if I type 8) ...will it happen here? 8) 8) 8)
Software is fascinating but sometimes you gotta let it go, eh? Sorry all. P
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There is a lull now and I'm just enjoying not thinking...Ahhhhh...........I'm into watching old movies, the Beverly Hillbillies (Now that is not thinking) and sleeping.
When I moved down to the Bay Area seven years ago to be near my family I took to watching sitcoms, something I had never done before... I caught up a on all of them - Cheers, Seinfeld, MASH, ect. It was welcome relief. Junk food for the mind, candy for the soul.
PS. I was at the grocery store late the other night and rounding an aisle I came across a box full of stick horses. Have you seen them in the grocery store where you live? When you squeeze their ears, they snort and whinney and toss their heads, to the tune of the Lone Ranger. Just before I got there, someone had activated every one of them in the box - then disappeared. I was captivated. It was so darn cute! All these stick horses whinnying, snorting, tossing their heads - what a delightful sight.
Take care Flower. Hope you are rejuvenated soon. Phoenix
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Her stuff looks amazing, from a once-over of some of the articles.
Is it very expensive to order books from overseas?
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Hi lilitu, I haven’t followed the Amazon.co.uk website through to see what it costs to order from the UK and ship to the US but I imagine that might be the least expensive option. I saw a couple of second-hand ones on Amazon.com but they seemed expensive to me (rarity value?).
Take care Flower and Phoenix. No stick horses on sale here as far as I know, but we do have cute grunting pigs that grunt and waddle across the floor. I don’t buy them…but I do play with them at the toy store.
8) P