Voicelessness and Emotional Survival Message Board
Voicelessness and Emotional Survival => Voicelessness and Emotional Survival Message Board => Topic started by: Lucky on March 22, 2010, 06:41:25 AM
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http://intjforum.com/showthread.php?t=31142&page=2
Originally Posted by Causa Mortis
"The fullblown PD won't have the painful moments of lucidity and will basically be unable to change. They'll be unable to admit weakness or lack of knowledge in any area.
Features only, they tend to realize it at times, can improve, and may only have the traits in certain areas of life."
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That is completely untrue. I was diagnosed with NPD just about a year ago and I do have moments of lucidity however rarely last long enough to make a change. I am completely aware of what I am doing when I do it and what I am thinking when I think it and I do know fully how my behavior at times could be deemed if people became wise. I understand right and wrong as well as understand that by society standards my thoughts and judgments deviate from what is "normal". Im not a mental midget my thoughts and ideas are just alternative and edgy. On the flip side of that.... had someone not pointed out that there was something wrong and able to convince me with facts just how destructive my behavior has been to myself I would have lived my whole life thinking nothing was wrong aside for a few annoying character flaws. There is treatment for those who don't chose ignorance over knowledge.
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My NM has lucidity at times but THEN does the same thing --again. It is like a dog who keeps jumping on the sofa. They can be slapped each time and they may learn for a time.
However, when they can get away with it again----they will be right back up.
Is this other people's experience ,too? Ami
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Yes, N's do not want to or can not learn from earlier mistakes.
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My NM has lucidity at times but THEN does the same thing --again. It is like a dog who keeps jumping on the sofa. They can be slapped each time and they may learn for a time.
That's how it goes in my FOO. My father has moments of lucidity when he realizes he isn't getting what he wants out of life and relationships. And he seems to even strain sometimes (for a few seconds) to have a reciprocal dialogue with someone else. But it's like pulling on a rubber band. As soon as he relaxes his grip his self absorbed personality snaps right back into place. He can't quite figure out how his day to day "normal" behavior is the cause of his problems. There isn't enough continuity of "self" to make any real change possible.
And I suspect even his moments of lucidity get distorted into a weird form of compensation. It's another way of being special.
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I don't feel that NM has lucidity, so to speak. I do feel that she realizes when she has overstepped and is obviously being horrid. In those cases, she will go to extremes to put herself back into a decent light. I really don't believe I have ever seen that she is aware that she is malicious as a whole - or maybe just that she does not care. Her only modification comes from wanting to be able to continue to get what she wants.
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Her only modification comes from wanting to be able to continue to get what she wants.
Ditto. It's horrible. I try not to think about it.
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I think that the reason they see it, but then "slip" back into it, is because it is their coping mechanism of choice. I really think that N's are deeply damaged and cannot face their own inner demons. To stay in a lucid state and choose to reject hurtful coping mechanisms is beyond what they can do. I guess that what I understand of PD is that it is someone who is in a "can't" state...as in: they cant do anything differently.
For the rest of us (non PD), we can choose healthy ways to deal with our wounds. That's sobering to me, when I am tempted to think: that's just the way I am, I've been damaged. Dont really want to go there for too long.
I think that N's are actually pretty pathetic, especially when you can see them get a glimmer of lucidity and then slip back into the abyss of narcissism.
CB
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So after i wrote this: I try not to think about it. ....
think,think, think.....
so they try to get what they want.
Okay. Not my problem. My problem (or blessing.....or my 'thing' - neutral) is being me, right? Right. So is there a problem? Oh I bet I could find one if I really tried hard enough...
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I've suspected there may be a disconnect between knowledge and feeling/emotions for the N. They might understand intellectually that good relationships require giving, reciprocity, respect and so on. But the problem is in practice, this sort of relationship just doesn't FEEL good to them. They get something they need out out of conflict and abuse. So they are in constant turmoil between emotions and the intellect, with the emotions usually winning. They are like a drug addict who understands the damage of their addiction, but still can't stop.
Those of us who have to deal with their behavior get continually sucked back in by the moments of lucidity and the apparent good intentions. But inevitably we get punished for it.
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I think that the reason they see it, but then "slip" back into it, is because it is their coping mechanism of choice. I really think that N's are deeply damaged and cannot face their own inner demons. To stay in a lucid state and choose to reject hurtful coping mechanisms is beyond what they can do. I guess that what I understand of PD is that it is someone who is in a "can't" state...as in: they cant do anything differently.
For the rest of us (non PD), we can choose healthy ways to deal with our wounds. That's sobering to me, when I am tempted to think: that's just the way I am, I've been damaged. Dont really want to go there for too long.
I think that N's are actually pretty pathetic, especially when you can see them get a glimmer of lucidity and then slip back into the abyss of narcissism.
CB
Good point, CB. Ami
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SL
The most intelligent N I've known personally understood that a good relationship was one where a woman gave everything and he thought being reciprocal was him enjoying her giving. To him, if you really argued hard about being reciprocal and what it means, he'd see it as a game which he'd want to win (and then we can get back to being 'normal'). I don't think they understand intellectually, unless they've studied it and can fake understanding.
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I'm beginning to realize that a narcissist with significant periods of lucidity = a borderline personality. That is what I've realized happens with my own mother and why I have been so confused by her flipping from a narcissistic state to a more lucid, empathetic, reciprocal state. I think most "true" narcissistic personalities are very high-functioning and have not had to deal with a lot of failure in their lives (either that or I guess so low-functioning that they don't even REALIZE their failures). I think that's why you see a lot of true N in physicians, CEOs, etc. At least, these people didn't have a lot of failure growing up ... and a lot of them probably were GC so that when they did fail their parents glossed over it.
So, although I think my mom qualifies more as a borderline than a true N, I still post here because having a BPD mom instead of NPD still = voicelessness. Both damage you. The true N is stably a pain in the a**. The borderline N is unstably a pain in the a** and that has its own problems because it is more confusing and you let down your guard just in time for them to sucker-punch you.
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SL
The most intelligent N I've known personally understood that a good relationship was one where a woman gave everything and he thought being reciprocal was him enjoying her giving. To him, if you really argued hard about being reciprocal and what it means, he'd see it as a game which he'd want to win (and then we can get back to being 'normal'). I don't think they understand intellectually, unless they've studied it and can fake understanding.
Hi Portia. I definitely agree their understanding is never correct. I think of it as more of a process within their own twisted reality. My father seems to believe he's had a reciprocal conversation if he asks a couple of yes/no questions, and then talks about himself nonstop for a half hour. So somewhere he picked up the intellectual understanding that asking questions is a part of a good relationship. But he isn't even consistent on asking the yes/no questions. When he phases into a more self absorbed mood, even the superficial attempts at relationship disappear.
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Some more to chew on:
http://intjforum.com/showthread.php?t=33004
Also Lucky, from seeing a few of your posts you seem very intent on understanding narcissists. Sometimes the best way is not to objectify it in others but see how elements of these things exist in oneself, then explore why that is for you, from there. Results in an empathy that helps deal with any anxiety around the uncertainty of knowing someone to the extent that they scare you at some level.
I think Narcissism is the ego gone wild and to the extreme, so unless you are without ego, when you operate out of it you will find your own inner narcissist, however it is wrong to project the personality disorder onto these temporary egocentric ways of being or defenses. A personality disorder is marked by its rigidity and inability to be much else than this way. Unfortunately they have invented the term 'traits' to broaden the use of the label to people acting out of their ego in particular ways or locked at the time, for whatever reason, into ego centric ways of being. Beats trying to understand what is going on for them, particularly when you might be involved in the situation and could be part of the reason their defences are so heightened?
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re Narcissism - remember it is just a system of defences, there is a person in there that wants the same as everyone else. They just had a life that developed ways of being to cope that now look like this, and become particularly prevalent when distressed. Unfortunately it hurts to be on the receiving end of their behaviour, however they also were on the receiving end of particular socialisation processes that led to how they are, which is no doubt painful to them, even if they do not recognise it, as it certainly does not result in many positive social responses back to them?
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Lucky,
I think I have benefitted from understanding some of NMs patterns and beliefs. She no longer surprises me and I can repeat her words back to her if she is being unreasonable. She has no control over me because I know WHY she is being a certain way.
I have also worked very hard on my N tendencies. I saw what she did in my behaviors and have modified most of them, I think.
I do think there is validity in understanding the N, though!
This has been a great thread.
Love, Beth
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I think Narcissism is the ego gone wild and to the extreme, so unless you are without ego, when you operate out of it you will find your own inner narcissist, however it is wrong to project the personality disorder onto these temporary egocentric ways of being or defenses. A personality disorder is marked by its rigidity and inability to be much else than this way. Unfortunately they have invented the term 'traits' to broaden the use of the label to people acting out of their ego in particular ways or locked at the time, for whatever reason, into ego centric ways of being. Beats trying to understand what is going on for them, particularly when you might be involved in the situation and could be part of the reason their defences are so heightened?
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Hi Lucky. These comments are worth thinking about, however it seems to me there's a danger in taking too much back on ourselves. We are part of the cause of their anxiety by the mere fact of our existence. To the N, the world is a reflection of themselves. Anything that doesn't fit that reflection is experienced (even if unconsciously) as a threat. It isn't something we are going to be able to manage by modifying our own behavior. Since the comments came from someone on a board not primarily concerned with Nism e.t.c.. I have to wonder if he/she has really had much experience dealing with the behavior patterns discussed on this board. How much effort did this poster put into considering what YOU have been through before posting advice.
One of the breakthroughs in my understanding of my FOO was realizing my father responds to EVERYBODY with typical and rigid behavioral patterns. It wasn't just something I was doing wrong.
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SilverLining, my thoughts exactly. It really pays off to learn as much as possible about narcissism and narcissists. And I alsp think the narcissism is not caused by people that are around the narcissist at this time and moment but was caused years earlier in the N's childhood. Learining more about N helps to open one's eyes to one's own N traits and awareness is the first step in the process of overcoming these (dysfuntional) traits.